00:00hi everyone welcome to the a 6nz podcast
00:02I am sonal today's episode is continuing
00:05our new medium storytelling series this
00:07episode in particular is focusing on
00:09virtual worlds and more broadly
00:11filmmaking techniques and the evolution
00:13of narrative joining this conversation
00:15we have two-time Academy Award winner
00:17Robert Stromberg you want Oscars for
00:20production design on avatar and Alice in
00:23Wonderland he was also the director of
00:25Disney's Maleficent and he directed the
00:27Martian VR experience which received the
00:30Cannes silver lion award also joining
00:32this conversation our deal and investing
00:33team partner Kyle Russell and editorial
00:35partner Hannah tanam but we began the
00:37conversation with Robert telling us
00:38about his career which went from being a
00:40matte artist to visual effects to art
00:42direction to production directing and
00:44now co-founder of the virtual reality
00:46company a studio for this new era so
00:48we're really excited to have you and I
00:49think what's really special unique about
00:51your background is a the immense variety
00:53of things and the range of things that
00:55you've done but also because you bring
00:57such a unique perspective that sort of
00:58stitches it all together from starting
01:00with your own career which and maybe we
01:01should start off as sort of your
01:02backgrounds and how you sort of got here
01:05this it's been a extremely interesting
01:07ride I seem to change careers about
01:09every five years it seems but I started
01:11off my father was a low-budget filmmaker
01:14and I grew up watching my dad make
01:16monster films in our garage he was a big
01:19fan of Ray Harryhausen and Willis
01:21O'Brien and so I was you know
01:25immediately struck with the fascination
01:28of not just film but the world creation
01:31and it was like magic to me at the time
01:33that led me into sort of creating the
01:37the backgrounds for some of the stuff he
01:39was doing and that led to an 18-year
01:41career as a matte artist and visual
01:45effects supervisor which took me to a
01:48point where I met the director named
01:52Peter Weir and we did a film called
01:55master and commander together and he's a
01:58great man a gentleman but you know we
02:01became such close friends that by the
02:03time we were finished he felt like I had
02:05designed so much in the movie that he
02:07gave me the credit on the film as visual
02:12and it was really interesting because I
02:16hadn't really started off to be a
02:18production designer actually wanted to
02:19be a director even as a kid but hard to
02:23break into it is and you know I got a
02:26call one day from from Jim Cameron you
02:30know who calls Jim Cameron you mean the
02:32James Cameron out of the blue it was a
02:41Sunday and you know the phone rang and
02:44it says it's James Cameron and I said
02:46yeah okay but he asked me if because he
02:54had seen Master and Commander and he
02:56just love the the realistic qualities
02:59and the design of it all he felt that it
03:01was very real and gritty and so he asked
03:04me you know would I be willing to help
03:06him for a few days to because he had a
03:11studio presentation I said okay sure and
03:13I said can you tell me a little about it
03:16and he said yeah it's a big science
03:18fiction film takes place on another
03:19planet you know and very vague really
03:22know what movie what do we think it is
03:25it's like you tell me any more about it
03:29and he said well when we get together we
03:31will but all I can tell you is that it's
03:33on a moon that's orbiting a big gas
03:36planet he said he said there's floating
03:40mountains floating mountains is on a
03:42moon and that yeah can you come see me
03:45tomorrow and I said okay yeah so so I
03:50had never met him but I was so inspired
03:53by the call and I'd spent years doing my
03:56own artwork so I did I said what the
03:58what the heck I'll I'll do something so
04:00I just made up this image Vista you know
04:03it had giant trees and floating
04:06mountains and just based off the very
04:08little information just just being
04:10inspired I decided to do when you say
04:12you made up did you make it up in like
04:13some digital form was it on paper with
04:15the mock-up like no it was it was a
04:17visual image a Photoshop
04:19photoshopped image started off as a
04:21sketch and then into Photoshop but I
04:25so I went in to meet Jim the next
04:28morning he and John Landau the producer
04:30and we were talking for sometime and we
04:33all agreed what we could do okay good
04:35and then I said hey you know Jim I did
04:38this piece of art I'd you know you want
04:40to see it and and he said sure and I put
04:43it up on the screen and he literally
04:45sort of turned white and my god pounded
04:48his fist into the table and I said what
04:51the heck have I done
04:53and he pointed at and he just looked at
04:55he said that's my movie oh my god and
04:59that for days or whatever was going to
05:00be turned into four and a half years
05:04yeah and as a production designer so
05:08yeah it was my very first production
05:09design what did that entail roughly
05:11we're not familiar with the industry so
05:12production design includes everything
05:14from oh every plant every everything
05:19about the the world of Pandora creating
05:21that world from scratch yeah every
05:22single element of it it must feel like
05:25being like God almost to be creating
05:28from plants to sound it's very spiritual
05:31I have to say I mean it it's a sort of
05:36nod to how I feel about creation in
05:39general it's a sort of an honor to be
05:42able to do that stuff rain did you have
05:45I mean complete yeah it was really just
05:47really just Jim and I in the beginning
05:49later on a guy by the name of Rick
05:52Carter came on who was a week Co
05:54production design he did the human
05:57elements the military base and and I did
06:00the organic world let's talk about some
06:02you were directing work and so you
06:03directed maleficent which by the way
06:05it's such an amazing movie because i
06:07love the fact that you tell the story of
06:09the dark queen perspective yeah i think
06:14that's what was compelling to me and i
06:16think if we had just told straight out
06:18of the box version of Sleeping Beauty
06:21people wouldn't have been as engaged I
06:23think the the unique part about the film
06:25was that we got to see a different point
06:29of view and see some things that we
06:31might have wondered about if we had seen
06:33Sleeping Beauty so to me that was really
06:35really interesting what was some of the
06:37adjustment and making
06:38shift in doing say production art and
06:43design to the directing I mean beyond
06:47like the scope of what you're doing is
06:50it's kind of interesting I was doing a
06:52panel in Oslo Norway and someone in the
06:56audience asked me what makes somebody an
06:58artist and another person not and it's a
07:01great question actually and you know I
07:03thought about it for a long time because
07:04it is a great question and what I came
07:07to was that I believe that creative
07:11types or artist types are better
07:13observers of the world or more curious
07:16somehow about the world itself and what
07:20happens is by paying attention to all
07:22those small little details that nobody
07:25else cares about those are the elements
07:28that allow you to complete a problem you
07:31know if you look at art as a series of
07:34questions and answers that you ask
07:36yourself to get to the finish line if
07:38you know those little subtle answers
07:40you're able to get there I once heard
07:43say that he that the distinction between
07:45design and art on a different note is
07:47that design answers question and art
07:49asks questions that was kind of
07:51interesting with sort of thinking about
07:52it so one question we have is that so
07:56you have this incredible rich background
07:59and so many ranges of filmmaking and now
08:02when you think about the fact that you
08:04created entire worlds like from down to
08:06the plants in an avatar how does that
08:09sort of translate to VR where it seems
08:11it's almost like unmooring there's no
08:13place to necessarily anchor yourself
08:14almost oh I thought the I thought it was
08:17extremely exciting you know I mean what
08:19we were doing I'm not saying that that
08:21avatar created VR what I'm saying is
08:23that for the first time we were felt
08:26like we were pioneering and entering
08:28into something new why is that oh the
08:31first because it was the first time we
08:32were making a movie in a 360-degree
08:35world with a virtual camera the only
08:37thing different is that the camera
08:39wasn't attached to your headset so what
08:43you're describing was for the camera
08:44setup with avatar basically there was a
08:46pre-made virtual world of what Pandora
08:50actors were in front of large green
08:52screens and while filming could look
08:54through a screen on the camera that
08:56would show you what that person looked
08:58like in the context of the virtual world
09:00partly so actually the entire movie
09:03there was a section of the movie that
09:04was shot in New Zealand which were
09:05actual sets had actual actors but the
09:08majority of the film was actually all
09:10motion capture which means that all the
09:13actors had a motion capture suit on and
09:17it was we were in a warehouse in Playa
09:20del Rey it was just big gray huge
09:22building with infrared cameras
09:26we had terrain simulations on the ground
09:29so that when the actors went up and down
09:30and over logs and things would feel like
09:32they were yeah and we just replaced that
09:34with the digital stuff the camera itself
09:37was completely virtual in other words
09:39you were looking at a screen but Jim had
09:42the ability to you know change that into
09:44any lens any scale of movements you
09:48could have a techno crane move or just a
09:50little bitty move all with the same cool
09:53the ability to to use any lens or any
09:58camera movement it could if you just
10:00move your hand three inches could be a
10:02hundred foot move or it could be a three
10:04inch move so the ability to scale and to
10:07move around was unbelievable and that
10:09was just to record the the the actors
10:14and we were seeing back real-time the
10:17the actors as their avatar characters
10:19right and but was it wasn't in full
10:21fidelity right it was kind of Oh No
10:23quality rendering yeah I used to call it
10:24the crayon version ultimately what the
10:26film would look okay obviously when we
10:29first started avatar I remember that the
10:31first meeting where we saw the tests of
10:34motion capture and the capabilities the
10:37first test was just one figure hopping
10:39over a little gray log and Jim said okay
10:42we can do this right but by the time we
10:44were finished technology had advanced so
10:46rapidly that we suddenly were making the
10:49movie in a fully detailed world I mean
10:53it was sort of what we in sort of a
10:55previous state it was like video game
10:57level it wasn't you know full fidelity
11:00but everything that we did on that stage
11:03went to the visual effects people who
11:06just upgraded that to higher res models
11:09so you had a very early sense of what it
11:11would be like to create a kind of
11:13virtual reality world and film but when
11:16was the first time you you felt what it
11:18would be like to consume it to
11:19experience it on the other end well even
11:22then at the end of Avatar I was thinking
11:24Jesus a matter of time before we are
11:27able to create a viewing system where
11:29we'll be able to sort of walk around
11:31Pandora you know and actually go there
11:33and Pandora being the world the world
11:35and but you know at the time the movie
11:39came out the tech wasn't there for the
11:42headsets and all that for VR but I did
11:45want to keep my eye on what was
11:46happening and I wouldn't have to do
11:49other things is designed Alice in
11:51Wonderland right after that and then oz
11:53the great and powerful after that
11:55remember the first time you put on you
11:57know that you had so so one day woke up
12:02I was during the middle of Maleficent
12:03and and read that Facebook had bought
12:06you know company called oculus as an
12:09investment of ours just a safe full
12:11disclosure so that very day I read it I
12:14got up and I actually Cole called oculus
12:16and they were still just a small group
12:19in Irvine at the time and asked if I
12:23could come see what they were doing and
12:24they they you know cordially said yes
12:27and so I immediately went down there and
12:29they invited me into their little secret
12:31room and and that very day what I saw
12:36was exactly what I hoped I would see and
12:39that is that finally you know we have a
12:42viewing system that would allow us to
12:44step into these worlds that I've always
12:46dreamed about and it sort of shocked me
12:50in in a very big way and so on that same
12:53day I walked down to the cafe of that of
12:55their building and called my two other
12:58friends and said we're starting a
12:59company today and that was for the
13:01virtual reality company VRC fantastic
13:04branding by the way well owning that
13:06right from the beginning well that tells
13:07you how long ago it was
13:09I have a question for you on the on the
13:11technology and the creatives or the
13:13balance because one of the things that I
13:14know a lot of people complain about for
13:16better or worse about George Lucas and
13:17some of the newer Star Wars movies is
13:19how at the end of the day those movies
13:21kind of became unmoored because it was
13:22just him playing with a lot of toys and
13:24CGI and kind of losing sight of like the
13:27narrative and the plot and a lot of
13:29people feel like rogue one for example
13:30sort of addressed some of those wrongs
13:32and they were sort of proud that Disney
13:34took that on in a way and one of the
13:35questions I have you when you describe
13:36the ability to create a world from
13:38scratch and having come at it from
13:39filmmaking and now going into VR how do
13:42you sort of keep everything sort of not
13:44unmoored because one of the things that
13:46I see that a lot of early VR are it has
13:49almost an overly fantastical quality to
13:51overly video game-like and and it
13:53doesn't feel and I know Kyle you've
13:55argue in the podcast in the past that
13:56you don't have to feel fully real just a
13:58figure that sort of rough can even
14:00convey the same thing how do you
14:02navigate this not letting the technology
14:04on more the creative or vice-versa I
14:06think very much like avatar I look at
14:08things not today but you know five years
14:10from now ideas will always be ideas that
14:13are catching up and the tech is catching
14:15up with they're constantly trying to
14:17sprint together yeah they said they
14:19reinforce each other yeah so here so I
14:21think that you know the fidelity will
14:24get better the viewing systems will get
14:26better and one day you'll be you'll be
14:29able to go into the worlds append or
14:31wherever you want to go but in a very
14:33very real way you know right now you
14:36know we when we're running at 90 frames
14:38a second and the the and through game
14:42engines and things like that that
14:43there's a tremendous amount of material
14:45and information happening and we all
14:48know that that stuff will get better
14:49over time you know a lot of these movies
14:52that you've done and worked on have this
14:54archetypal story feel to them the fairy
14:57tale or even Avatar sort of a Jungian
14:59you know archetypal story what are their
15:03genres or types of stories that you
15:05think you'll do a better job of telling
15:08with VR that they'll open up a different
15:10kind of way of talking about our telling
15:12stories I do you know I was just on the
15:14phone this morning with somebody talking
15:15about this because you know in when I
15:18was doing didn't not directing but when
15:20I was doing visual effects
15:23I would work on all types of movies and
15:25and each one of them is singing if you
15:28will different songs so for instance
15:30when I was a visual effects supervisor
15:31and I was doing a film like walk the
15:33no one knew there were visual effects in
15:35it Rock the line is in the Johnny Cash
15:39lots of movies where you didn't know
15:41there were visual effects in them but
15:44what you get known for is the
15:46fingerprint and that's the the fantasy
15:48stuff so in via in VR what we haven't
15:51seen yet is and what I'm trying to do
15:53with with VR see is to bring the gaming
15:56world and Hollywood together in a way
16:00that had hasn't been seen before and I
16:02was gonna say that's one of the things I
16:04found most impressive about the Martian
16:06way if the virtual reality company is
16:08famous for anything today it's the first
16:10production that you did with Fox
16:11innovation labs which is the Martian
16:12basically letting you be Matt Damon
16:15stuck on Mars for a couple minutes I
16:17ain't seeing the out of everything
16:19so many conversations we have with
16:21people in Hollywood and kind of more
16:24traditional film mindset is the idea
16:27that oh VR is this big tricky puzzle to
16:30deal with because we don't have editing
16:31and quick cuts and camera movements
16:33don't work in the same way and so it's
16:35all these disadvantages how it's always
16:37framed but when I played to the Martian
16:39you were taking advantage of the very
16:41latest capabilities of the headsets out
16:42there on the HTC vive that you're using
16:45positional tracking hand tracking where
16:47my moving around on the Mars surface it
16:52was the exact same motion of my body and
16:54hands in my living room right and it's
16:57not so much that you weren't able to you
16:59weren't able to cut to other significant
17:01events happening in a specifically timed
17:03way but I got to spend time actually
17:05there and write what's a game like about
17:09is the fact that the story it's not
17:12controlled entirely by the filmmakers
17:14it's you have to have some kind of input
17:16on the world for the plot to move
17:17forward yes oh yeah exactly and so I'm
17:22curious are there other kind of
17:23limitations that people talk about when
17:25it comes to film you think actually
17:27that's not a weakness it lets us
17:28experiment these other ways we entered
17:30into that and like we entered into
17:31avatar which is really can we do this at
17:33all and you know this is this
17:36this is long before any of the hand
17:38controllers were available and all of
17:40that stuff so we were working with
17:41literally like soldered together hand
17:44controller prototypes and things and but
17:47rather than having like floating hands
17:49like we all see in VR we actually came
17:51up with a way to you know do the icao R
17:54and that's kinematics so working on the
17:57movement of your hands what your arms
17:58and elbows and every other that's right
18:00because when you see wait why is that
18:02such a hard problem because there's just
18:03so much you know so much happening and
18:07and by the way you know this is taking
18:09the you know the vibe and an oculus and
18:13their equipment and adapting to what we
18:15needed to do as well so you're kind of
18:17customizing the hardware to like the
18:18early days of computing one of the
18:19biggest hurdles of even that that that
18:24the Martian was was developing the arms
18:27you know which are completely textured
18:29so you could put your arm right up here
18:31close to your face and see the same
18:33pistol as a man had in the movie that's
18:35right and you're in a space suit so you
18:37know if you don't have that you don't
18:38have a complete sense of immersion in
18:41what's happening so so that was
18:43incredibly important and I think you
18:45know groundbreaking in many ways that's
18:47some of the technical aspects on the
18:48narrative side did the people who played
18:51the Martian listen they hadn't seen the
18:52movie and they don't know the narrative
18:54how do they sort of know how to direct
18:55themselves in the environment cuz this
18:57is the question that couldn't have about
18:58VR I was talking to really along the way
19:00and he was kind enough to let us work
19:03while he was in editorial still on
19:06making the actual film but he allowed us
19:08to take their footage and experiment
19:10with it so I came up with this this
19:13thing I called box cutters which is
19:15basically floating windows that come up
19:17and and and down like an edit edit so it
19:23propely you're still in VR and things
19:25feel dimensional but it's still
19:27preparing propelling the the narrative
19:29forward yeah I think there's a lot of
19:30interesting ways that people have a sort
19:32of fine it doesn't to be linear
19:33necessarily obviously but it's
19:35interesting how people are finding these
19:36ways of almost providing a weird sort of
19:38skeuomorphism for VR for lack of a
19:40better phrase yeah some other narrative
19:42experiments I've seen they've got done
19:43away with putting sci-fi floating text
19:46in front of humans that have what looks
19:48like a physical road signs
19:49like the giant heroes and go here next
19:50taking of gaming there's a game that I
19:53played I don't think that many games but
19:55it was a game called extrasolar which
19:57was all like exploring Mars and super
19:59high death and it was very scientific
20:01and you're on this mission to find it
20:02but you had no I gave and it after a
20:05while because I had no idea what to do
20:06next and that was a game not of your
20:08immersive environment I mean the the
20:10rule book is still not been written on
20:13on how to make you know narrative
20:16storytelling you in VR I like to sort of
20:18look at it a little bit like you know a
20:20Broadway play for instance you know
20:23where you there's a director and actors
20:26in front of you that are conveying a
20:29story to you and you can sit in any seat
20:32in the theater and and still be told the
20:34same story now if you were to jump up on
20:38stage and get in the middle of all of
20:40that you would feel as though you were
20:42intruding there's a lot of psychological
20:44elements that go along with you know
20:47creating storytelling in in VR and and
20:50not to mention other cues like oral cues
20:52sure and other things as well it's like
20:54real life I'm looking at you guys and
20:56when you talk I look at you and when you
20:58talk it it's it's not just audio cues
21:02it's visual cues it's I that you can
21:06edit by the way you just have to do it
21:08in clever ways I've done a lot of
21:11research in you know motion because
21:16obviously if you if you artificially
21:19give somebody a sense of motion they can
21:21not feel well so I spend a lot of time
21:24figuring that out and one of the things
21:26I figured out is you know keeping the
21:28horizon correct and at all fascinating
21:32because our equilibrium is so delicate
21:33yeah that that if you're off a little
21:36bit you feel it you know and also it's
21:39very important when you're when you're
21:40moving the camera that you you're moving
21:42really really smooth in an in a path
21:47constant motion no acceleration yeah let
21:50on a rail let let the people do the
21:52looking because when you take that
21:54ability away from them they feel that as
21:56well you know I think that that
21:58eventually we'll probably see some sort
22:01so you mean like content writing like
22:03GPG promotion so like if we had this
22:07sort of like a color that orange blue
22:10green oh you know the the orange level
22:13is for kids and so on and so on
22:16communicated well enough today is the
22:18fact that nausea typically it's not the
22:21hardware itself oh if you use this
22:23gadget you're going to get sick from VR
22:25it's experiences built in a certain way
22:27using acceleration a certain way moving
22:29the camera a certain way that's what
22:31leads to it and it's something that you
22:32can label and highlight and say hey this
22:35experience tends to do things in a way
22:36that to a subset of people might make
22:38you feel though you don't like roller
22:40coasters don't watch that inner ear -
22:45totally unique to the individual but I
22:47think you could say like this - this six
22:49to the extent that you are susceptible
22:50to it this experience would contribute
22:52to those things or these would that's
22:53right if you're someone like me who gets
22:55seasick on a rowboat you make a motion
22:58that's a constant up-and-down motion
23:00where the horizon is changing if you're
23:01on a roller coaster you're on a smooth
23:03rail and you are you have the option to
23:05look around so that's where the horizon
23:07becomes so so fascinating I love that
23:11you mentioned the pytheas
23:14- because something that struck me about
23:15VR is that in a way it's like almost
23:17like going back to reading and being so
23:19psychologically immersive right and it's
23:21almost removing the the the screen when
23:24that you know that put us at yeah like
23:26the chapter wasn't really a standardized
23:29function of the novel until the Bible
23:31like the point of view wasn't a common
23:34thing until Eisenstein the Russian
23:35filmmaker what are some of the tools
23:37that you're starting to get Inklings
23:38this is actually gonna open up a
23:40different opportunity for us rather than
23:43just problem-solving to make sure that
23:44we that we don't get sick you know that
23:47the rise and stick it allows us a new
23:50kind of access to emotional right that
23:52doesn't reference existing yes that
23:54we're gonna see in VR is there's gonna
23:58be more choices of of what experience
24:02you want I mean there will be the
24:06possibility for you to participate in a
24:08film and there'll be other times where
24:12you want something to in full unfold in
24:15just take it in and let somebody tell
24:18you a story now I have the choice right
24:19now to go to a movie theater sit back in
24:22the dark and let somebody tell me a
24:23story or I could go home and turn on the
24:25Xbox and control my own moves
24:29screenwriters now are gonna have to
24:31write 500 stories of one paper well I
24:35don't know it's actually really
24:35interesting because VR is is a it's
24:38literally a brand new medium I mean and
24:42it's still an infancy if you will right
24:45now it's been introduced mainly in the
24:47gaming world but part of the important
24:50part is to to find that first you know
24:54narrative storytelling event in VR that
24:58is so compelling an emotional killer
25:00story with actors and something makes
25:03you feel something and and once that
25:05happens I think a floodgate of other
25:08storytellers will get involved when I
25:10first saw the movie gravity for instance
25:13yeah oh man this make a great VR film
25:17you have these super long moves you're
25:19floating it's emotional eighty-five
25:22percent that movie was CG anyways
25:24gravity is an interesting example to me
25:26because I actually saw it in two forms I
25:28saw it in its regular movie like the
25:30flat version and then I saw it in the 3d
25:33which I know is not VR just for the sake
25:34of terminology and clarification but I
25:37found the 3d version to be more
25:39distracting because while there was a
25:41very immersive tangible tactical quality
25:44to it it was very distracting from the
25:47actual emotional experience whereas the
25:49first time I saw it without the 3d I was
25:52in completely emotionally immersed
25:54because I was just so lost in this story
25:57of a woman trapped in space and in her
25:59own life essentially avatar was in 2d
26:01and 3d you know the majority of the
26:03people I talked to found the 3d version
26:06you know compelling and emotional I so I
26:09think it is argument for mmm-hmm for
26:12both both but look it's always going to
26:14boil down to storytelling writing
26:19compelling storylines and and really
26:23interesting characters and in VR you
26:25know I hate to say this but I feel like
26:27we're at this sort of
26:29parlor trick stage of things right now
26:31unfortunately it's a bunch of little
26:33proof of concepts of oh we actually can
26:35guide your attention from one side of
26:37your body to the other without needing
26:39to necessarily control where the cameras
26:41pointed how do we keep your attention
26:43but still give you the freedom of
26:46feeling like you have agency and you can
26:47look at whatever they want writing
26:48little poems instead of a novel we
26:51haven't seen Meryl Streep in VR yet this
26:55was recorded the day after the Golden
26:58you know I'm I go back far enough where
27:01I witnessed analog-to-digital right in
27:05the first place where computers were
27:08these things no one knew about and what
27:12was interesting is in the early days of
27:15computer graphics it was the the the
27:18people that built the equipment
27:20themselves that were making stuff and
27:23and I remember us this very specific
27:26time where when when the creatives of
27:30Hollywood and visual effects and all of
27:32those people joined forces with those
27:34technical people and and that's when it
27:37all of a sudden you saw an explosion of
27:39really good you know visual effects CG
27:43work is that what you think this is the
27:45shift of an entire medium like to HD or
27:47more like how 3d was well the reason I
27:50say that is because the creative people
27:51in general once they joined forces with
27:54the the the the smart minds and the
27:57technical people behind all of the new
27:59technology then we'll start to see it
28:02really shift we're talking about the
28:04handset and the hardware makers we're
28:06talking about the studios and we're
28:08talking about the content and the
28:09creators we're talking about the film
28:11makers old and new and in between
28:13there's all these different players this
28:15distribution and there's platforms so we
28:17have this whole ecosystem where do you
28:19fit well from day one I I knew that
28:23there was going to have to be a
28:25symbiotic relationship between the
28:27technical and the creative and so from
28:30day one my intent was to be a pioneer in
28:34the content of VR and not an innovator
28:37in any new sort of you know hardware so
28:41love to touch on in this kind of the
28:42intersection of your art and the
28:44business of it as a creator and someone
28:48wanting to take advantage of the
28:49capabilities of the underlying platforms
28:51because with VR today you know there's
28:53kind of the height here where again as
28:55with the Martian you've got your head
28:57and hand tracking that lets you be this
28:59other person whereas on mobile it can
29:01use the same sensors that are in your
29:04phone for checking whether you turned it
29:06to the side so that it should play video
29:07horizontally to detect rotation of your
29:11head and so it's kind of this fishbowl
29:12of video around you the thing is because
29:16it's so much cheaper it's something like
29:175x more devices have been sold and on
29:20the high end things attached to a PC so
29:21how do you think about kind of the tug
29:24of I want to reach a bunch of people and
29:25the tug of I want to make the coolest
29:27things possible with VR today the
29:29high-end well again I think we're in the
29:31the infancy stages of things I mean you
29:33know you can you can you can play a 2-d
29:37game and be compelled on your iPhone or
29:39you can go home and turn on your Xbox it
29:42depends on you know a decision that you
29:44make and what sort of fidelity and you
29:46know interaction you want but what we're
29:49trying to do and it's in these early
29:51days is be platform agnostic and and pay
29:54attention to all platforms just looking
29:56ahead three years from now you know
29:57what's going to happen and planning now
29:59for when the market is there when people
30:03adopt to a certain platform so right now
30:07a lot of what I do is thinking about the
30:10future and where the technology is going
30:13and try and match a marketing plan and a
30:16business plan that will meet that you
30:19know at that Junction how do you think
30:21that people are going to access the
30:22content I was gonna pay - yeah do you
30:25yeah do you think that it's something
30:26along the lines of Netflix or HBO where
30:28you kind of pay for this all access
30:30bucket is something where you basically
30:32pay for a session you get to spend 20
30:34minutes in avatar for $10 the business
30:36model will change I think you know over
30:38time when there's enough content and
30:40there's enough library to to you know
30:43you know to sustain the subscription
30:46right when people talk about oh what's
30:48your VR look like for decades of backlog
30:51of film content that's neither could tap
30:54people complain that Netflix is now
30:56changing that whole nature how people
30:57interact with those archives because
30:59it's such a limited subset yeah
31:01initially what you know when you have
31:03sites like Steam and you you know oculus
31:05site and all these these will be the
31:07first places that you're able to sort of
31:09download but I can see very clearly a
31:12time when you will have this sort of
31:14Netflix like library to choose from and
31:17pay for a subscription so given the
31:19great of adoptions of these VR headsets
31:22you know several hundred thousand units
31:24each for the rift and vibe let's say
31:27does the idea of having some other form
31:30of getting to people sound like
31:32are you interested for instance in the
31:33like arcade model of set up places at a
31:37movie theater where you go see Star Wars
31:39Episode eight and here is a Star Wars
31:41high in VR experience or here is ready
31:44player one here's a ready player one VR
31:46experience there's lots of talk of that
31:48and we're talking to people about that
31:49and I think you can very realistically
31:51see you know 3040 seat theaters pop up
31:55with with seats that motion-based seats
31:58that are synchronized to the experience
32:01itself so though that you'll have that
32:03option or you can go home and perhaps
32:05everyone will have their VR set up at
32:09home and you know very similar model
32:12right now it's so early and you're right
32:17that that that Mobile is what we're
32:19we're really focused on right now but
32:21that's going to change over time as as
32:23people I'll tell you what the key is is
32:26when there's more compelling content
32:28there's there's content that people are
32:30willing to buy it'll happen it's a
32:33difficult tautology to deal with because
32:35it's when the things are there that you
32:37would buy people will buy it you have to
32:39have television shows if you buy TV you
32:41know so so and and that's that's where
32:45we're at now I think this next year is
32:46very exciting because a lot of attention
32:48will focus on on better compelling
32:50content so what are some of the things
32:52just to wrap up that you are excited
32:54about and that you're thinking about
32:55next well we just we just completed an
32:5818 minute piece with Steven Spielberg
33:04who surprised you didn't calm Stevie
33:08really quick stories is that when it
33:11first started VRC one of the first
33:14things I wanted to do was prove that it
33:15could be a cinematic tool and not just a
33:17gaming tool so I did a four-minute test
33:21that I called there which is basically a
33:23little girl taking you through this
33:24dreamlike landscape and and I ended up
33:29showing that to Steven and it was I just
33:34remember the look on his face it changed
33:35everything in his view of VR and so I
33:38was at his house he was inviting all his
33:39grandkids and everybody else to watch
33:41and it was just a really moving moving
33:43moment and what it proved to me is that
33:46you can do something you know in
33:49storytelling that's emotional and
33:52compelling and where we're going now is
33:54we are doing branching narratives so
33:57which is really cool that you choose
33:58your own invention so you can be going
34:00through a story being told to you and
34:02depending on where you look take
34:04different paths and different stories so
34:06the idea of rewatching again is is there
34:11and talk about Alice in Wonderland it's
34:13like yeah thank me but the next
34:15generation of gaming platformer
34:17storytelling is the same as the first
34:19computer game or game narrative format
34:23you know you've entered a room go
34:26through the door yes it's just that with
34:30much more impressive visuals I'm just so
34:32interested in the how you write that
34:35kind of choice into the story it will
34:37have to be a story that has a kind of
34:38multiplicity to it adding freewill into
34:41it that's the hard part to figure out
34:43where that fits into narrative the
34:44writing challenge around that to make it
34:47not like kind of thing choose one door
34:50well it is Alice in Wonderland but look
34:52at we can read a book and we can adapt
34:54that to a screenplay and we can do
34:56certain things I think we can follow
34:58character has character arcs and and
35:01write a story to each of those arcs
35:04which all ties together at the end with
35:07one broad narrative it well it actually
35:09does go back to the early days of
35:10filmmaking and the idea that you
35:12couldn't translate plays to movies and
35:16to VR there's gonna be a lot is a new
35:17language and a storytelling medium being
35:20created but yet sometimes using some of
35:22the same fundamental core principles
35:24about what makes people emotional I just
35:26love this idea that we can have multiple
35:28stories at once and not necessarily have
35:31it one have more weight and more
35:33authority I know the truth version yeah
35:36I mean obviously there's a lot of social
35:37aspects to to VR as well and how that
35:41could change the way we socialize
35:42together in fact how you argued in one
35:44of the blog post last year that actually
35:47social and come and Kelly argued this on
35:48our podcast too that if you I would
35:50actually be one of the more
35:51controversial platforms as opposed
35:54friends right which is I think true of
35:56any computing platform in yet we're all
35:58staring at our phones but it's to see
35:59what our friends are up to somewhere
36:00else I mean all that will change I mean
36:01there's so many tentacles in VR it's not
36:05sort of one-trick pony I think you'll
36:07see successes in certain areas and and
36:11failures and others but you know for me
36:13this next year is is gonna be really
36:16focused on proving that you can tell an
36:20emotional tale have a compelling enough
36:24for people to sort of engage and and
36:26want to sort of see more of and sustain
36:29it right a longer one not just four
36:31minutes in a dream world yes we've
36:34already started what I will call a
36:35feature-length VR film and I'm also
36:38thinking of reinventing the intermission
36:40so I love this when these details about
36:43the format you know there's a little
36:44like the chapter like the intermission
36:46can you talk about that what would that
36:47mean well I mean we used to watch films
36:50that were very long and they would have
36:51an intermission in the middle by the way
36:53Indian movies still have intermissions
36:54on them Bollywood movies they still have
36:56intermissions we go to a stage play
36:58there's an intermission
36:59especially in VR I think you want to be
37:01able to sort of give the viewer the
37:03option to take a break and these early
37:06stage stages of where we're at and give
37:09you know you can take some Dramamine
37:11maybe if you're watching VR on a boat
37:20so bring back the intermission that's
37:23super exciting and interesting I also
37:25like the narrative tool that the
37:26intermission was you know what one
37:28particular divides it into two before
37:30and after and digest and where are we
37:33when we come back you know it was part
37:34of the story architecture it was
37:36actually where the climax right and
37:39where the den you MA kind of started
37:41yeah yeah it's kinda like the old
37:42serials you would sort of end on a point
37:44made people talk and come back into it
37:47right TV before we got the binge culture
37:51from Netflix into intermissions in
37:56television our commercial so interesting
37:59questions for advertising as well so
38:01everything from bringing back to
38:02intermission to ratings and we could
38:03keep talking for hours but this is just
38:06fascinating thank you so much for your
38:07work and thank you for being an a
38:08success a podcast thank you for having
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