00:00welcome to the a 16z podcast here on the
00:03road in London where today Sona and I
00:05are sitting down with three guests to
00:07help us talk about entrepreneurial
00:09ecosystems and how the effort to build
00:11such an ecosystem is playing out here in
00:14London and more broadly the UK to help
00:17us do that we have Michelle you a
00:18co-founder of Songkick which is a
00:21concert discovery and ticketing company
00:23also joining us is Nick Baba jaan who
00:26ran mobile at Skype and more recently
00:28co-founded life cake which is a photo
00:31app for parents and a company that was
00:33recently bought by Cannon and finally
00:35Matt Clifford joins the pod a co-founder
00:38of entrepreneur first which is an
00:39accelerator that has a twist on the
00:42whole thing by it identifying technical
00:45talent and then funding those people
00:47before they've actually started a
00:49company welcome to the podcast so we've
00:52only been here you know I day or two and
00:54even just walking down the street and
00:56talking to folks we've noticed that
00:58there's the economy is certainly booming
01:00here in London and and I presumably
01:03outside London as well in the UK but to
01:05what extent is what we're noticing on
01:08the street and even you know in the
01:10shops and and then the way people are
01:12bustling around what does that have to
01:13do with tech well I think what's
01:15actually interesting about London is
01:17that technology is it's probably a
01:19technology hub for Europe and for the
01:21startup scene but it's the regional hub
01:24for a bunch of other industries
01:26especially industries that are being
01:27changed by technology advertising
01:29finance the list is long and I actually
01:32think that's an interesting difference
01:33about London is that technology doesn't
01:36dominate everything and there are a lot
01:37of people when you all walk out of this
01:38office who won't really care about
01:40technology for technology's sake they
01:42really want to know what it does and I
01:44think that's that's actually a healthy
01:45thing for an ecosystem to have a lot of
01:49other industries that are also powerful
01:50and important Matt coming from your
01:52perspective running entrepreneur first
01:54how do you view that yeah I mean I think
01:56we look at these things through the lens
01:58of what do the most ambitious people in
02:01a society want to do with their lives
02:02and I think the answer to that question
02:04actually has profound consequences for
02:05what society and economy looks like and
02:07clearly in Silicon Valley the most
02:09ambitious people want to start companies
02:10I think historically in London the most
02:13ambitious people have
02:13wanted to be bankers and that's had a
02:15huge impact on the stop seen on the
02:16technology seen because of lot of people
02:18who might be founders aren't and what
02:20we're trying to do at entrepreneur first
02:21is change that and I think it is
02:23changing very quickly so four years ago
02:25when we started entrepreneur first I
02:27know this from a recent conversation
02:29with a Dean of engineering at one of the
02:31top technical institutions in the world
02:33it's very close to here you know there's
02:35a 65% of their computer science grads
02:37went to become bankers went into finance
02:40well how many years ago within just four
02:41years ago and now it's 10 percent Wow
02:43and they say that the gap the Delta is
02:46very much driven by tech by startups and
02:50a little bit I'm pleased to say by
02:51others I think we're now one of the
02:52biggest recruiters out of that
02:53university but that hole we're seeing
02:56the kind of focus of ambition for these
02:57people the rich start their careers
02:59changing very much in favor of tech yeah
03:01there has been an enormous change since
03:03we started so we were one of the oldest
03:04startups in London we start in 2007 and
03:06actually we got our start at Y
03:07Combinator and then transplanted over
03:09here afterwards and when we first
03:11started it was so difficult to hire for
03:12that exact reason working at a start-up
03:14wasn't a thing that was done no one
03:16understood it you had to kind of
03:17convince your parents it was a
03:18worthwhile job and we actually started a
03:20jobs fair because it was so difficult
03:22for us to hire we started silicon milk
03:23roundabout which we've now spun out as a
03:25separate company entirely and that was
03:28that was basically to help startups hire
03:30and it was a recruitment jobs for and
03:31now that's grown and exploded and it's
03:33almost too big I think so what changed
03:36in that short I mean really relatively
03:38speaking in the arc of history that's an
03:40extremely short amount of time four
03:41years five years yeah you can go home to
03:43your parents and say oh you know what I
03:46think a few things that we see change I
03:47mean one is a kind of obvious global
03:49effect which is the cost of starting a
03:51tech company at least in the very early
03:52stage to keep falling and you know you
03:54reduce the cost of something you tend to
03:56increase demand for it
03:57but I think also on the on the other
03:59side I think it's you know we have some
04:01which trying to have some role models
04:02and some success stories I mean I think
04:03some cake is a great example of that
04:05maybe the first British company to take
04:06funding from Sequoia and you know kind
04:08of people increasingly look around and
04:11they do see that just eats and the Kings
04:12and the skypes and the things that
04:14happened in London suddenly there's a
04:16legitimacy that just wasn't there maybe
04:1875 years ago I think so I'm gonna say
04:20something kind of obnoxious and Nick you
04:21probably should correct me about this so
04:22one of the things that I hear a lot of
04:25company of significance has been started
04:28in Europe and London including London
04:30obviously and and I don't mean that in
04:34disparaging way but it's the it begs two
04:36questions one do you need local role
04:40models to nurture a local
04:42entrepreneurial ecosystem and two what
04:46will it take to make that next huge hit
04:48come out of Europe and am I wrong
04:50correct me so and three if you didn't
04:53mean that in a disparaging way well I
05:00mean I think the list is pretty long you
05:03Spotify and Skype and I mean there's
05:05yeah there's a whole bunch of success
05:07stories I think what probably hasn't
05:09happened yet is you don't have the
05:10Mafia's that have followed those yet so
05:12the mafia that sort of results from like
05:14a PayPal mafia yeah and also the exits
05:17that create the angel ecosystem in the
05:18same level is it that happens in the
05:21yeah I think in the last even what 18
05:23months I'm starting to see a lot more
05:25entrepreneurs from the last for the some
05:27key generation the commander investors
05:29and the Skype mafia I think now is
05:31actually pretty accident those investors
05:33and entrepreneurs and that recycling of
05:35town and capitalists start out I think
05:37what's got better as well as that the
05:38recycling of info yeah I think in the
05:41last year or two has become much more
05:43open entrepreneur sharing learnings with
05:45each other remember when we tried to do
05:46our raise it one round and we had to go
05:49to a partner meeting I had no idea what
05:51that was and I had to google it because
05:53nobody there didn't seem to be a
05:54generation out there but there's so much
05:57more sharing I think it's going on in
05:58London which is which is great for
06:00entrepreneurs do you guys believe that
06:02regions develop technology and ideas
06:06differently and if so what is what is
06:09the sort of you know regional flavor of
06:11something that's developed here in
06:12London or in the UK generally and just
06:15to build on that question one of the
06:17theses that we've put forth in the past
06:19is this notion of regulatory arbitrage
06:21that different cities can actually use
06:24relaxed certain rules and policies in
06:27order to optimize there's like so London
06:30is actually doing this actively right
06:31now at FinTech in order to really
06:33because they both find the heart the
06:34city's always been the heart of the
06:36financial services industry so really
06:37staying relevant in the future by
06:39ahead of it and is that something that
06:41you guys see playing out as well my view
06:43is that you know kind of great
06:44entrepreneurs at ground to pronunce and
06:46you know I think there's no there
06:47probably is some flavoring but you don't
06:49see I think in a way one of the most
06:51interesting things from our perspective
06:52is that being in an ecosystem that's not
06:54as developed allows you to challenge
06:57some of the conventional wisdom about
06:58how companies are built for example yes
07:01a for example one of the bits that I
07:02think when we start entrepreneur first
07:03that was deeply controversial when we
07:06tried to raise money was you're talking
07:08about building teams from scratch
07:10everyone knows that's impossible you
07:14we've been doing this for 40 years and
07:15it doesn't work and basically because
07:18people didn't know that it didn't work
07:20here we were able to try and now we've
07:21built 50 companies through that model
07:23and you know they seem to be able to you
07:25know kind of raise on the same
07:27trajectory developed products on the
07:28same trajectory kind of get to revenue
07:29on the same trajectory as teams that you
07:31know kind of form organically in an
07:33environment like Silicon Valley and I
07:34actually think we would have never got
07:36off the ground in Silicon Valley cuz if
07:37people would have just said you just
07:39know this well that's actually very
07:41counterintuitive that notion that you
07:43guys can build teams from scratch
07:45totally from scratch is that one of the
07:47I mean not to you know the analog that I
07:49think of is Y Combinator in Silicon
07:52Valley which we consider like one of the
07:53greatest startup schools in terms of
07:56graduating some of the best
07:56entrepreneurs how do you guys compare to
08:00what and how do you compare to what they
08:02and other accelerators and incubators do
08:04and are there any regional flavors to
08:07that as well besides one of the beliefs
08:09you just shared so the the comparison we
08:12would the way we would always
08:13differentiate is you know we think Y
08:15Combinator in particular you know truly
08:17phenomenal job and huge fans of what
08:18they've achieved and the weight and you
08:20actually we don't want to compete with
08:21any of these guys head on because I
08:22think usually you know if you've got a
08:24team an idea and a product you know you
08:26should go to AI combinate you should go
08:27to tech stars whatever so what we're
08:28trying to say is how do you get the guy
08:30who otherwise would go to Goldman Sachs
08:31to even think about it or well if you
08:34tell him cool well there's this funding
08:36available if you have a team and an idea
08:37well he's just gonna go to Goldman Sachs
08:38so what we do is we say if you are
08:41exceptional technically and incredibly
08:43ambitious we will spend six months with
08:46you actually building you know from pre
08:47company to company which I think even my
08:49comment it doesn't really want to do
08:53we can actually do that in a very
08:54systematic way and so you know for us
08:56that it's not a regional flavor so much
08:57as it's a response to what is the what
09:00is the kind of market for talent here
09:02and how does it work
09:03it sounds like what you're saying is you
09:04end up solving a problem that's specific
09:07to your location so the the issues that
09:10entrepreneurs preparers face or maybe
09:13that they don't even know to face
09:14because they don't know they're
09:15entrepreneurs which is very specific to
09:17London if you grew up in the valley
09:18everyone right everyone does a start-up
09:19you do one by the timer twelve it's like
09:22there's a lot more to fight up against
09:25and similarly I think the reason why
09:26there's so many cultural aided startups
09:29in London is because that's a very
09:30London thing about fashion and you know
09:33media and music as well I think there's
09:36a lot more startups in London focusing
09:38on those problems as opposed to the
09:40valley yeah I mean if you go into the
09:43East End where Michelle is there's a
09:45whole bunch of entrepreneurs but they're
09:47not necessarily technology entrepreneurs
09:48there's a lot of fashion
09:49entrepreneurship there's a lot of music
09:50and and I think that's just as much a
09:53part of the scene as the technology and
09:54I think that makes it that makes it
09:56richer ground I think what's also
09:57interesting about you're asking about
09:58what what might be different about
10:00startups in London Europe I think inside
10:03the startup there's a different profile
10:05culturally I think London is such a
10:08mixing pot as a city and I think the the
10:12the startups that happen here also
10:13mixing pot I mean the the first throw
10:15hires we made were from the Ukraine
10:17Estonia India and Hungary and even after
10:21we required the next four were from
10:23Spain Turkey Greece and Spain it's a
10:25much more international yeah and I think
10:27that's you know you you you get that
10:29starts to bear fruit when you started to
10:30look at different topics so privacy is
10:32super important for our startup you can
10:34imagine that somebody who grew up in him
10:35you know megapolis in the country of 1
10:38billion people has a different view of
10:40privacy from someone who grew up in a
10:42sort of some former Soviet republic of
10:44two million people and I think that that
10:46helps with with the chemistry within
10:48Astana so getting some more cultural
10:50diversity due to the not in the most
10:52generic way of like oh immigrants coming
10:54from everywhere but you're actually
10:55describing the way that they've been
10:56raised and their cultural backgrounds
10:58really influencing and shaping that
11:00right it seems that that the the phase
11:04of technology that were in there's
11:05we were describing I was talking to some
11:07folks the other day and how there's
11:09things that come to the Europe and the
11:11UK and they're like oh that that seems
11:13like that would make great sense in San
11:14Francisco but honestly it doesn't make a
11:16whole lot of sense here but as
11:18technology you know and it's already
11:20gone global but as it kind of seeps into
11:22every industry in every part of our
11:23lives I wonder if you know the advantage
11:26shifts to this part of the world or
11:29other parts of the world because of that
11:30diversity so you know the United States
11:32is this island sort of and Silicon
11:35Valley in particular is this island so
11:37do those outside influences lend
11:40themselves to building technology that
11:41really scales more broadly around the
11:44world I mean I think for me that's a
11:46it's really a question about you know
11:48what is the nature of ambition and you
11:50know what markets do people in a
11:52community in an ecosystem like who do
11:55people aspire to serve and you know
11:56certainly the impression outside in
11:59about Silicon Valley sometimes that it's
12:01you know somewhat inward looking and
12:02wants to kind of solve its own problems
12:03and there's nothing wrong with that
12:04whereas I think you can't do that here
12:06you know there isn't a big enough tech
12:08ecosystem that you can that you can
12:11serve that community alone I mean we
12:13often think of it when we compare
12:14graduates coming out of Cambridge
12:16University or Imperial here to people
12:18maybe coming out of Stanford we'll say
12:20the difference is how obvious is it to
12:22them that Tech is the prism through all
12:24through which all these things will be
12:25solved I mean our joke is that you know
12:27Stanford has the luxury of attracting
12:29megalomaniacs and turning them into
12:30computer scientists and we have to start
12:32with computer scientists and turn them
12:33into men but I really mean that and I
12:36think we kind of get people coming out
12:38and say well it's not obvious to me that
12:40starting a start-up is the right way to
12:42solve this problem but increasingly you
12:44know I think as you know tech as you say
12:47seeps globally that is a lens that
12:49people use in but they're looking at a
12:50much wider set of problems you know
12:53fashion music finance industry than
12:55perhaps they would if everything was
12:57about tech in the environment so we're
12:59really hearing from you which I think is
13:00interesting that because we take it for
13:02granted where we're at even though I
13:03think Michael and I really protest ever
13:05drinking the kool-aid that you're not
13:09just so is tech is central but we're not
13:11tech centric like in London and in this
13:15um which i think is actually really
13:16important to think about in talking
13:19about how do you guys then views the
13:21looking valley I mean I think if you're
13:24a geek you feel like you're coming home
13:26if you go to San Francisco I mean these
13:28these billboards with these in jokes
13:30about technology and the guy at the
13:32rental car place who starts talking
13:34about his startup and I mean in that way
13:36it's really it's really exciting it's um
13:39sometimes it it does feel like it's a
13:41it's a town that's so dominated by
13:43technology that you wonder if any ideas
13:46really get shouted down whereas I think
13:49in in a city like London you can get
13:51your idea shouted down by lots of people
13:53pretty quickly people that don't really
13:54care about technology and I think that's
13:57that's a refreshing thing to have as an
13:59entrepreneur so that's what you need you
14:00need to be tested and you need to have
14:03people that that aren't from the
14:05technology world and don't aren't
14:06necessarily excited about technology
14:07understand what the benefit you're
14:09bringing is I mean I think the valley
14:11definitely establishes the benchmark for
14:13ambition like anytime I go there whether
14:16it's to meet investors or for whatever
14:18partners or whatever reason you kind of
14:20always get I feel like I get my ass
14:22kicked from the level of ambition there
14:23and that can sometimes be lacking in
14:25London like you know being very bullsh
14:27about thinking big and saying you're
14:28gonna be the next whatever
14:29billion-dollar company that just doesn't
14:31come naturally to British people I think
14:32being that kind of the famous reserved
14:35yeah exactly and because people are
14:38operating at such a high level you learn
14:40a lot when you're there and you kind of
14:41realize how much you have how much more
14:43you'd be learning more quickly if you
14:44were just around and living there and
14:46informally in conversation so anytime we
14:49want to figure out like a new problem to
14:51solve or some some issue or facing we
14:53always look to see if there's anyone in
14:54the valley that we can seek advice from
14:56I think the flip side of that is it is
14:59like I personally find it to be a
15:01cultural wasteland any time I go over
15:03there after I'm there for two weeks I'm
15:05craving going to a museum or being able
15:09to see that film that just came out or
15:11having more variety in my social life
15:14than just technology so I I find that to
15:16be a reprieve when I'm not there I think
15:19the other thing that is a benefit of
15:21being away from the values that you kind
15:22of aren't distracted by the echo-chamber
15:25I think it's really easy to get caught
15:27competitiveness or feeling like you're
15:28missing out or you're not doing things
15:30the right way and I just the way my
15:32psychology operates if I'm not there I
15:33don't have to be constantly worrying
15:35about ever thinking about it it feels to
15:38me when I look at our kind of profiler
15:40companies as they develop that the
15:42valley is still very much the kind of
15:44probably global hub of people who know
15:48how to scale from like a hundred million
15:50to a billion Sayal you know maybe even
15:52below that to above that and that's not
15:54here yet and so I would say we're
15:57looking outside we say it looks like
15:59it's probably the best wall to scale
16:00best place in the world to scale the
16:02company it may not any longer be the
16:04only place in the world to build the
16:06company I think the other thing we're
16:07increasingly seeing very strongly with
16:09our companies is that the cost of
16:11engineering talent in the valley
16:14relative to here means that there is
16:16actually hesitate says an arbitrage play
16:19available of raising us money on us
16:21terms and hiring UK engineers on UK
16:24salaries because what you could what it
16:27would cost you to get a Stanford grad
16:28straight I have you know four-year CS
16:30degree you can get you know a Cambridge
16:32PhD with you know three years postdocs
16:34prints and machine learning and that
16:38arbitrage actually we've seen all
16:40companies execute very effectively but
16:42what can we learn from from from you
16:46guys and from sort of what you're
16:47describing as you know yes there's this
16:51huge ambition in Silicon Valley there's
16:53just a billet II to scale but clearly
16:55there's something that you guys have
16:56going on here in London in particular in
16:58Europe in general that that can we can
17:01learn from and what are some of those
17:03things that if you're a Silicon Valley
17:05entrepreneur you might do well to pay
17:07attention to one one maybe smaller thing
17:11that surprised me when I talk to
17:12entrepreneurs from the US or from France
17:14or other places that government is
17:16either seen as irrelevant at best or the
17:19enemy at worst and I think there's a
17:22different a different sense of harmony
17:24here I think government is actually
17:25quite innovative in how they help angel
17:28investors in the UK how they help
17:30startups directly and also how they're
17:32helping to build the scene you know and
17:35when you're a very small start-up and
17:36you have questions about things like tax
17:38you actually can pick up the phone
17:40to somebody and get a real answer and I
17:42think with the IRS in the u.s. maybe
17:44people don't pick up the phone and I
17:47think and in France I think is a similar
17:50situation I think the government doesn't
17:52have to be the enemy for a small
17:54business for an entrepreneur it can
17:55actually be the opposite one thing that
17:57I think is interesting is that there's
17:59never been a really successful case of a
18:01top-down government mandated or
18:03government created ego cluster nor has
18:07there been a completely purely
18:08successful bottoms-up community where
18:10it's just a start-up set of
18:12entrepreneurs who are very
18:12entrepreneurial and trying to build an
18:14innovation cluster so there seems to be
18:17like a happy middle where you got to
18:18meet in the middle what factors do you
18:20think need to sort of balance or what
18:23have you guys observed here that sort of
18:25enables you to do what you need to do or
18:26that you wish people would help get out
18:28of your way in building whatever you've
18:30built or are building some of the things
18:32that the government here has done aren't
18:36getting out of the way things and some
18:37of them that they've done are you know
18:40quite active things and I think you know
18:42there's a lot of criticism of the
18:43government you know probably four years
18:45ago that it was cheerleading and hype
18:47and there was nothing there
18:48and you know probably that was true but
18:50at the same time I think it was a
18:52self-fulfilling prophecy it was probably
18:53quite useful because I do think
18:55ecosystems have to be magnets for
18:56capital and for talent and obviously not
18:59nothing there but as in the criticism
19:00was always these aren't real companies
19:02these are some keeping and obvious
19:03exceptions but but I think the word the
19:05criticism used to be you know these are
19:07all agencies and one-man bands and that
19:08you know it's that fair or not I think
19:10what's being quite helpful is yeah being
19:13enough of a drum that actually very
19:15smart people and you know pools of
19:17capital start to look at it and that's
19:18undoubtedly being helpful so what you
19:20say beating a drum you mean basically
19:22government playing a role in kind of
19:23marketing the brand of a city and
19:25drawing that capital I mean I'm sure
19:27you've experienced this very strongly I
19:29mean I think the government the the
19:31current government last government both
19:32we know really paid attention to
19:35startups you know perhaps to a degree
19:36that was hard to fathom as a very hum
19:39starts I mean are being invited to
19:40meetings at Buckingham Palace and 10
19:42Downing Street you know and you know is
19:44that useful thing obviously not in the
19:45scheme of things but in terms of being
19:46the drum I think it is
19:48yeah I think in bringing public
19:49attention and public spotlight on to
19:51what's happening in London in the
19:52startup like ecosystem here it's it
19:55probably had knock-on effects I think
19:56when we first started you know no one
19:58silicon roundabout wasn't a term there
20:00wasn't a startup cluster now it's a well
20:02understood thing people talk about tuck
20:03city you read it in the broadsheets I
20:05think that's been hugely influential in
20:07terms of the cultural awareness of
20:09startups but I don't know about specific
20:11policies or kind of tax codes that have
20:13helped me I think to the biggest
20:16discussion for conversations in Britain
20:18that currently and biggest worries are
20:21immigration policy and the cost of
20:24housing and I think those are actually
20:26very similar to concerns that people
20:27face right now and then Silicon Valley
20:30goes into the tech scene and I think
20:32government has a strong role to play to
20:34make sure that we don't crush you know
20:36what's made London so vibrant which is
20:37that we have such a mix of people coming
20:39here to start companies and to be part
20:42of companies and also controlling and
20:45making sure that you know if San
20:47Francisco is in some ways in some
20:48respects a cautionary tale make sure
20:50that we also don't become an environment
20:52where you know small entrepreneurs and
20:54startups get priced out and go to other
20:57cities because they can't stay here how
20:59does how do they solve for that as the
21:01government like municipal e or even like
21:03nationally trying to carve out like like
21:06regions like silicon roundabout der tuck
21:08city and saying like the rents in this
21:10area will be rent controlled or I mean
21:12are they actually doing things - are
21:13they building more units I don't think
21:17it's that level Romney I think really
21:21it's probably it's more on the kind of
21:24supply side on the capital side me I
21:26think because it is referring to you
21:27know some of the tax breaks for angel
21:29investors which undoubtedly have had a
21:31huge impact on both who and how much
21:34it's investing in in the UK but you know
21:38arguably that just feeds the housing
21:39bubble and you know does the rezoning as
21:42well I mean our last co-working space
21:45by local council mandate into private
21:48housing hey entry-level housing for in
21:51Primrose Hill which is the my impression
21:56is that the ship sailed a long time ago
21:57on real estate in London and New York
21:59for that matter and even you know so
22:02yeah it's got there's hard things to do
22:06at at this point where universities fit
22:09in this because again a big quality
22:10we've talked about government we talk
22:11about entrepreneurs in the communities
22:13and then you have universities which are
22:14huge hubs of talent their sources of
22:17talent for you directly mad and for you
22:19Michelle and hiring there is
22:22extraordinary talent in London and
22:24really the support of UK in Europe and
22:27you know I think very often because that
22:29town hasn't been thinking about startups
22:32or even really technology I mean it's
22:34not just about startups you know you
22:37have this effect where actually suddenly
22:39it's exciting and you can you see a flow
22:41you know kind of into the ecosystem I
22:43think the big change that we've seen is
22:44that increasingly its people with
22:47includes people with deep technology
22:49talent you know kind of who actually you
22:52know I mean the the deep mind story
22:53actually I think is a important story
22:55for London as an ecosystem because I
22:57think maybe not for the first time in
23:00the most visible way it showed what you
23:02know incredibly smart very deep
23:04technologist building something really
23:06hard could achieve in London I hope it's
23:09really quickly for our audience what was
23:10it deep - were sitting so deep - a
23:12company start here in London by by PhDs
23:16in computer science focusing on general
23:18artificial intelligence they you know I
23:20think they made some pretty exciting
23:22progress on the research side although
23:24they never actually released a product
23:26into the market as such and it was
23:28acquired by Google for I think four
23:29hundred million dollars something in
23:30that region maybe a year ago now I think
23:34that's had a number of interesting
23:35effects the most important for ours that
23:37entrepreneur first has been that
23:39suddenly every PhD in computer science
23:40in the country is saying interesting I
23:43wonder whether there's something I can
23:45do and actually as a cultural shift it's
23:47a very small number of people maybe took
23:48in a thousand people but those thousand
23:50people have the capacity to actually do
23:52something quite special yeah I think
23:53there is I mean a deep history of
23:55Technology and engineering kind of
23:57excellence in the you
23:58okay for sure I mean Cambridge is a
23:59great great place for that and SwiftKey
24:01I think there's another another example
24:03of PhDs who were doing research and
24:05machine learning and they decided to
24:07apply their their their learnings in
24:10their academic background to a consumer
24:11product and I think that shift in
24:13thinking I can do more with the research
24:15that I'm doing or I can have a different
24:17application is happening now and I think
24:19that's that's kind of similar to the
24:21shift we're seeing in general of
24:23engineers and tech talent looking to
24:25startups as a place to apply their
24:26skills so our CTO for example got his
24:29PhD from Lees and artificial
24:30intelligence worked at Google worked at
24:32Apple worked in the valley and he's now
24:34involved in the University and kind of
24:36changing the computer science program to
24:37have it be more commercially focused or
24:39training the students to be able to work
24:41as engineers rather than thinking about
24:43going on higher education or whatever
24:44other paths they might have I do think
24:47as well the exciting thing is as that's
24:49happened the academics themselves have
24:51become more engaged in that process so I
24:53would say four years ago maybe a
24:55reflection on I was rubbing them but
24:56with very little engagement from
24:58academia itself whereas this year we
25:00found we had so much engagement from you
25:02know really top computer science
25:03professors that we you know we ended up
25:06building an academic Advisory Board to
25:08help us both think about how do we help
25:09our startups but also how do we help
25:11some of that PhD students think about
25:12startups and you know I think if you go
25:14to Cambridge inner to Imperial get to
25:15UCL we're talking about not just
25:17regional but global kind of leaders in
25:19machine learning in artificial
25:20intelligence in virtual reality
25:22encrypted currencies these are very
25:24exciting areas of like cutting-edge
25:26research and those professors now want
25:27to be involved in startups that was a
25:29very defining quality of how Silicon
25:31Valley was built I mean that coming to
25:33confluence of unicode emia government
25:35university the local talent the sort of
25:38entrepreneurial well and also this gets
25:40to a question and also industry and so i
25:43wonder you know you talked about parents
25:46accepting startups what about large
25:48companies and their acceptance of the
25:51startup community and whether that's as
25:53customers of startups or partners or
25:56even acquisition I mean where are you
25:58what are you seeing these days in terms
26:00of how large companies view the
26:02ecosystem which you guys are you know
26:04right in the middle of so one of the
26:07first tech jobs that I had
26:09was at a large corporate us-based
26:15technology company and I think the view
26:18of startups were they were kind of an
26:20annoyance you might take an occasional
26:22meaning from one you might glean some
26:23ideas but in general you tried to avoid
26:25interacting with them we were recently
26:28acquired by you know the imaging company
26:30Canon and I think that they're
26:32particularly excited about London as a
26:34potential help for innovation and and a
26:38lot of the scene that's happening here
26:39and and being able to connect with those
26:42startups I think what's also interesting
26:43is if you look at advertising London is
26:45definitely the undoubted advertising
26:48Centre for for Europe and there's so
26:52much innovation that happens around
26:53advertising and I think they embrace
26:56startups wholeheartedly and do really
26:58interesting trials and work with
27:00startups they've started a few funds of
27:02their own to invest in startups at
27:04early-stage you know in general large
27:06companies do not partner well especially
27:08with small companies but I think a big
27:10advertising agencies London have proven
27:12that wrong we're starting to see a trend
27:14where larger companies are doing a
27:17better job of partnering with startups
27:18and there's certain things driving that
27:21one is that you don't want to be left
27:22behind which is may be the case for
27:24Canon right or Google buying you know
27:26deepmind Google is a separate thing but
27:30but I also think that there's an
27:32understanding that if you need to
27:34partner with startups you need to sort
27:36of change your way of billing of you
27:38know you know setting up contracts
27:40however that may be are you guys seeing
27:43any evidence of that that you know the
27:45ice is cracking a little bit in terms of
27:47willingness to bring you guys into the
27:51fold from a corporate perspective maybe
27:54not in terms of massive companies but
27:56because we do ticketing and we get
27:59supply from artists directly through
28:02artists pre-sales as well as promoters
28:04there's a there's a lot of kind of a
28:07cultural divide they have to parade
28:08around like how tech company works why
28:10we can't do certain things how we can
28:12help in learning to speak the same
28:14language as an old industry like the
28:16music industry so that that's the kind
28:17of bigger gap that I see
28:20I think there's also an emerging trend
28:22in in media for equity deals big media
28:26companies based here that have huge
28:28reach but feel maybe they're not playing
28:30a part in innovation and in some of the
28:32new ways that information is being
28:33spread and using some of their their
28:35reach to get equity and startups or more
28:38importantly glean learnings from
28:40startups how they work and how they
28:42interact with customers interesting Matt
28:44what do you think on the es side cuz I
28:46feel like um I would think big companies
28:49want to literally use you guys we do see
28:55we have a lot of interest from from
28:58large corporates and very often the
29:01challenges that the reason they're
29:03approaching is is they've got to some
29:05sort of realization of we need to be
29:08more innovative we're not quite sure
29:10we're not quite sure I don't mean this
29:13in a patronizing hugely difficult
29:15question to answer we're not sure how to
29:16do it we think stops might be part of
29:17the answer can you help and I think
29:19we've found with some partners near very
29:22large organizations we actually can help
29:24them to do some things that are real win
29:26wins actually interestingly media
29:27companies we found it easier to work
29:29with than some others but I think the
29:31stage it feels like we're out here in in
29:34London is that there's a realization
29:36that more must be done and figuring out
29:38what that it is is it's still the kind
29:40of open question from everything you
29:42guys have described so far in this
29:44podcast it sounds like you know there is
29:46this beginnings of this flywheel
29:48starting to go where there is an
29:50ecosystem of entrepreneurs who've done
29:51it before there's funding but what else
29:55do you need what can really sort of kick
29:56this thing into into higher gear I mean
30:00I think one thing that we see very
30:01strongly is the need for experienced
30:03entrepreneurs who've been there done
30:04that to become the kind of mentors to
30:06the next generation and I think that's
30:08has been hot in Europe because maybe not
30:10so many who have been there and exited
30:12and I think maybe and maybe it's
30:15controversial I think sometimes the word
30:16mentor gets used in a very very broad
30:19sense with you know perhaps not enough
30:20regard for kind of quality of
30:22interaction consistency of interaction
30:24and what we've what we've chosen to do
30:25entrepreneur first is to kind of abandon
30:27the the kind of mentorship model that
30:30some accelerators have way you know have
30:31a hundred names on a website and they'll
30:33fifteen minutes and actually have a real
30:35partnership model where our partners
30:38apart from Alice know the founders are
30:40experienced exited entrepreneurs who
30:43come in the same time every week and
30:45meet the same companies week in week out
30:46or incentivized in the right way and you
30:48know I think four years ago it's hard to
30:50find people who would do that and
30:51increasingly we combine more and more
30:53when I speak to both our alumni and
30:55other companies in the ecosystem I find
30:56more and more they're getting advice
30:58from people being there done that exit
31:00didn't want to want to really get back
31:02involved again and I think that's a huge
31:04you know kind of part of the flywheel
31:05effect do you guys think you actually
31:08need X entrepreneurs to be those mentors
31:12is that a credibility thing like why
31:13can't it be unbundled where you can have
31:15say a mentor and distribution Michelle
31:18or a mentor for sales or a mentor for
31:21you know marketing I think it absolute
31:24defect depends on the kind of kind of
31:25advice that you need so one of my
31:27advisors is actually friends with Nick
31:29Mike Bartlett who worked at the skype as
31:31well and I see sought him out as an
31:33advisor when he was still at Skype but
31:34he's now gone on to start his own
31:35company and at that time was just I
31:36needed to learn about how to run a
31:38product team how to effectively ship
31:40products and he could help me with that
31:41but I think a lot of the problems you
31:44face as a start-up are inherent to the
31:47nature of starting a company and
31:48learning how to grow business I think
31:50the kind of advice you might get from
31:51someone who comes from a big company
31:53might not be relevant to you so that's
31:55kind of why that flywheel and that kind
31:57of cohort of people who've done it
31:58successfully is is probably the most
32:00valuable place for that for that advice
32:02for those people who aren't here in
32:03London right now and aren't doing
32:06business in Europe more broadly why come
32:08why pay attention and you know what what
32:11is that stake here and what's sort of
32:13the opportunity I think one of the
32:15biggest things I've benefited from being
32:17in London is in having a less inward
32:20looking kind of point of view I think in
32:23America I can say it because an American
32:25it's really easy to just think that
32:27American America is all there is because
32:29its dominant force it's where a lot of
32:31you know don't for some culture and
32:32technology and it's easy to just think
32:34about the US but when you're in London
32:35you're forced to think about the rest of
32:37Europe as a first step and then the rest
32:39of the world and I think that comes more
32:40naturally to people in a place
32:42Londyn I think you know the main themes
32:46that you know we've been talking about
32:47there's extraordinary town here I think
32:49there's you know kind of access to a
32:51very broad range of industries you know
32:53kind of outside tack that are kind of
32:54crying out for tech to you know common
32:56play a role there and you know I think
32:58you have the emergence of an ecosystem
33:01that you know does have a different
33:03flavor and is some actually exciting
33:05things bubbling up well thank you thanks
33:07for joining the agency podcast
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