00:00I'm Boris Hertz I'm an early stage
00:01investor through version 1 ventures and
00:03also a board partner with andreessen
00:06today we were talking about marketplace
00:08and platforms and communities and we've
00:11got Emil and Julia here from tinny so
00:14perhaps first tell me what is tinny sure
00:16so I'm a meal I'm the founder of tindy
00:18and what tindy is is a marketplace for
00:20inventions made by people like you so we
00:23have products like drones 3d printers
00:26electronic components sensors boards for
00:29Arduino Raspberry Pi and emerging
00:30electronic platforms so he's using the
00:34site can you give us some examples off
00:35of people who come to the site and
00:37buying sure so we have anyone from
00:40hobbyists and DIY folks in their garage
00:42all the way up to we had an order
00:44yesterday from the Canadian government
00:45NASA the US Air Force Google and
00:49everybody in between so I was an
00:52entrepreneur that that build a
00:54marketplace called eight books which was
00:56a marketplace for hard to find books
00:57that we sold to Amazon in 2008 I'm also
01:00investor in a lot of marketplaces and I
01:03always felt like one aspect to really
01:06differentiate a marketplace on the
01:09platform is Reis from community and
01:10building that so tell us a little bit
01:13about kind of the aspect that community
01:15plays for for tindy on your marketplace
01:17sure so initially the site was based on
01:22building off of the arduino subreddit
01:25and starting with kind of the arduino
01:27community that was already emerging on
01:29reddit and since then it's basically
01:31started to grow out from there including
01:32other electronics platforms and so
01:34what's happened is is we see the
01:36communities kind of started to kind of
01:37spread into the natural areas of kind of
01:39this electronics movement that's
01:40happening and i think it harvests just
01:43because everyone has natural interests
01:44that are diverse and varied and people
01:47have basically started to build parts of
01:49the site for based upon their interests
01:50and different products they kind of
01:52explore those areas so when you look at
01:55other marketplaces with strong
01:57communities who do you who do you Maya
01:59I mean who kind of do you look up to so
02:03I'm Julia I'm the head of engineering at
02:04Indy and one of the places that we often
02:06look is that reddit so but it has a very
02:09strong very passionate community but one
02:11of the keys when you're building
02:12is you have a lot of early adopters who
02:15have who are very highly opinionated and
02:17very excited about your product which is
02:19fantastic but as your product grows and
02:23evolves then you have to reassess you
02:25know what's important and what's
02:26valuable our community
02:27so although Emil mentioned we started on
02:29reddit and that was where where the idea
02:33we now have looked at many other types
02:35of communities for example Airbnb to see
02:38how they form and grow community around
02:40their site although the business is
02:41slightly different to businesses like
02:44Etsy uber yeah so one of the rules I
02:51learned very quickly around building a
02:53community is on the one inside you you
02:55have to give up some some control I mean
02:58it's the whole sense of community and
03:00kind of involved them at the same time
03:02you shouldn't lose control right so so
03:04how do you manage that balance on the
03:06one inside you know involving people but
03:08not losing control and handing the
03:10business over to the community so I
03:12think for a marketplace you kind of got
03:14a double-edged sword in a way because
03:16you have to appeal to two different
03:16sides of the for the audience it's not
03:19just one one group let's say like
03:21Facebook or you know a typical social
03:23network where everyone's seen equal you
03:24have two different audiences and both
03:25have different needs so you have to look
03:27at what are the aspects that you give up
03:30control that basically ensure a good
03:32experience for the customer while also
03:33giving the freedom for the sellers to
03:35accurately describe their products show
03:37off kind of their personality what makes
03:39them unique what gets people excited
03:40about what they're doing so for what
03:43we've done is we've got some basic
03:45things around controlling the payment
03:47the process of distributing funds after
03:49orders have have come through as well as
03:50looking at reviews and creating a clear
03:53system for customers to get an accurate
03:55portrayal about the products and about
03:56the sellers because at the end of the
03:58day what we're doing is building this
03:59market for an emerging segment that
04:02hasn't ever had a community before and
04:04hasn't actually had an online audience
04:05and so we're trying to actually build
04:08the the different features and kind of
04:12the the experience for an audience that
04:15actually has never had an audience and
04:17has never had a platform to basically
04:18rally around and so you have to
04:20constantly feel that out and it's a
04:22give-and-take where you know you were
04:24on one aspect but you're more freeing on
04:26another and so you know we've tried to
04:29find that delicate balance but at the
04:30end of the day it is going to be a
04:31give-and-take between the needs of one
04:33one one side of the market versus the
04:36other it's like we're driving the car
04:39building the car and then rebuilding the
04:42engine all while going down the highway
04:44and we're unable to stop or even have
04:46lunch and so I feel like that's probably
04:49a good way to describe the experience
04:52and and also I would add where no one is
04:55built a car before but they build
04:57similar cars but nothing quite like the
04:58car that we're driving and so Todd -
05:01what Emile was saying it's very
05:03important for people to feel heard when
05:06you're building a community and so very
05:08very similar to building in an
05:10engineering organization you know there
05:12are often times when you need to say no
05:13and you need to push back but as long as
05:15that channel is open and they know how
05:17to reach you through that channel we've
05:19often found that you know whether it be
05:21from the early days of tindy Emile doing
05:24support in the IRC to having support
05:28email to having forums to having all
05:30these different avenues you ultimately
05:32have to decide which which channel is
05:33going to be best for your business and
05:35that channel might change over time and
05:37how much attention you pay to the
05:38channel but it's very important I think
05:39that the channel is open and it's it's
05:41people know that if they go to that
05:44channel that they will be heard a
05:46response will come in a very quick
05:47amount of time and even if the response
05:50is something like thanks but no thanks
05:52they know that they are special in their
05:54voice was heard I think to give an
05:56example on that one thing that most most
05:59communities most websites don't do is
06:01they don't actually include the voice of
06:03the community and discussions and
06:05planning product decisions and policies
06:07and so one thing that we do is we
06:09actively will post ideas and questions
06:11on our forum for the community to
06:13respond to so people can actually get
06:15their voice heard before we've made a
06:16concrete decision and and basically we
06:19throw that question out to the community
06:21to see their ideas because at the end of
06:22the day we're a small team and we're not
06:24going to come up with the best ideas for
06:25every single time for any possible
06:27outcome in any possible scenario if we
06:30lean on the community a bit then we've
06:31got thousands of people that can get
06:33their voice in there which generally
06:36you know it's not the best idea for for
06:38design decisions and crowd think but
06:40many times those scenarios come up and
06:43you can at least talk through your
06:44rationale for why you think this is the
06:46best policy this is the best plan and
06:48everyone can can basically feel like
06:51okay I was at least included in the
06:52discussion I may not agree but at the
06:54end of the day my voice was heard and
06:56and I was there at the table and so what
06:59we're working on right now is is
07:00basically revamping our review system to
07:02continue to to make that better and
07:04better and we we through the idea of
07:07what we're planning to do in a month
07:08time and gave a date and let the
07:11community start to reply so all morning
07:13I've been replying to more people in the
07:14forum's about what they think we should
07:17around reviews and sellers have their
07:19own you know Bend on that but customers
07:22as well think they're they're pretty
07:23valuable so you know as I was talking to
07:26I think a 17 or 18 year old seller in
07:30London this morning who had his own
07:31thoughts on it and at the end of the day
07:34it's better for us to hear them out than
07:36to just make decisions from on high so
07:38eight books obviously built a very
07:40powerful community and still to this day
07:42I find people who are a book fanatics
07:44and so given that you eventually sold
07:47that business to Amazon before that's
07:50that point in time how did you handle
07:54and grow and encourage the community and
07:57handle features like reviews and
08:00feedback yeah I think it's in Indiana
08:04degree comes down to two things clear
08:06rules and open communication channels
08:09right and I think one of the rules was
08:12always you know were you know everything
08:15is up for discussion but eight books
08:17ultimately takes the business decision
08:19we run the business you know there are
08:22certain ways of how to communicate with
08:24each other and yet sometimes it you know
08:26it gets really heated but we try to
08:29involve the especially the sellers as
08:31much as possible and decisions about
08:33product roadmap about you know community
08:36rules about business models etc well so
08:40always coming back say we we need to run
08:42the business in the end we need to take
08:43the ultimate decision but you know it's
08:47it's a very powerful thing to have a
08:49strong community it's sometimes also a
08:50very tiring thing as an operator because
08:53you get all of these thousands opinion
08:55from highly passionate people that all
08:57want to wanna have a say in your your
09:00business so you know to be honest it's
09:02sometimes also tiring and a lot of work
09:05so going off of that which side of the
09:08witch audience do you lent more time and
09:14you know to take their voice more
09:16seriously you're super users or the the
09:18generic the generic audience the
09:20longtail audience I think that's a
09:23that's that's a tough question right I
09:26think first of all you need to build a
09:28marketplace in a platform for the
09:31majority of users as the larger the
09:33group is that kind of you address with
09:36what you're building the better for the
09:37business right having said that so the
09:41super users did that the power seller is
09:43the super involved users they usually
09:45have on the one hand say great input but
09:48they might also be so passionate about
09:50it and have so radical views that's
09:52really tough to to to take these into
09:55account and when you look at kind of the
09:57history of dick for example I think what
09:59happened is there there were you know
10:01dozens and hundreds of power users that
10:03took over the community and basically
10:05resists a change for the better of the
10:07business going forward right so I think
10:10it's just this does you know find
10:13balance off you get great input from
10:15these guys but they're probably also the
10:17the most passionate about taking over
10:19and and driving their own decisions
10:21their own kind of interests into into
10:23the company isn't there but there's the
10:25saying that you have to find your first
10:27thousand customers or first thousand
10:29users or whatever the saying is and
10:32early on getting people super passionate
10:35and excited about what you're doing is
10:37is essentially what you're trying to do
10:39because otherwise if they're not really
10:40excited then they're not gonna spread
10:41the word and at a certain point and this
10:44goes along same with the marketplace you
10:46have to switch from listening to your
10:48super users to then trying to balance
10:50what's the best for the community as a
10:51whole and it's the same with a
10:53marketplace where you have to have
10:55sellers and you have to have inventory
10:56but at a certain point that equation
10:58flips where you then start to have to
11:00about how do we then appeal to the
11:02consumer and how do we make this an
11:04enjoyable experience for them as well
11:06and so I think that you know if you're
11:09building a marketplace then generally
11:11speaking you start with the supply and
11:12you start getting them super excited and
11:14jazzed and spreading the word but once
11:17you you reach certain critical mass you
11:19start to then you know spread out and
11:21you start listening to the community as
11:24yeah I don't think the conflict is there
11:26in the beginning you know in the
11:26beginning everybody is super excited
11:28about a new marketplace a new product
11:30that addresses a need and everybody
11:33rallies behind that I think the conflict
11:35comes once you expand from the knees to
11:38the masses suddenly you might have new
11:41types of products on there that you know
11:43kind of the core sellers that were there
11:45early on say this you know that doesn't
11:47belong to our community or you start
11:49implementing a pricing model where
11:50everything was free before and suddenly
11:52you charge right and people don't like
11:53that or you need to standardize
11:55processes because that's is how are you
11:57gonna grow into a mass buyer market that
12:00one has standardized shipping and sent a
12:02various checkout and standardized terms
12:05and conditions right so I think that's
12:07where you really start to have conflicts
12:09between the power users that carry the
12:12company in the beginning on a just a
12:14vision and idea and kind of some passion
12:16and then suddenly turning that into real
12:19scalable business that address is a much
12:21larger than the original niche market
12:23and that that's where usually conflict
12:25starts what is the best company you've
12:28seen handle that transition you know
12:31it's a it's a good question I you know I
12:34think Etsy has done an a fantastic job
12:37off of building a community having said
12:40that you know be Kirsty they were always
12:42focused on the the handmade items they
12:44never had the you know niche to masses
12:48in in a large way right but they
12:50certainly have done a fantastic job
12:53I think EB in the beginning has done if
12:55it has the job doing that you know
12:58probably they lost a little bit their
13:00way as they grow bigger and bigger and
13:02kind of forgot a little bit about
13:05along that way but I think Etsy overall
13:08is probably the the marketplace that has
13:12the best around every strong community
13:14that combines both online and offline
13:16elements do you think the super users
13:20are the ones that tend to use the
13:22community features the most because if
13:25you look at Etsy or if you look at you
13:28know eBay you look at some of these
13:30sites that if you ask the average person
13:33walking down the street their answer
13:34would be you know it's a marketplace for
13:36handmade goods or it's a marketplace for
13:37you know anything that I can you know
13:39throw up on on eBay and and behind the
13:43scenes there's actually more to it than
13:44just a a marketplace meaning there's
13:46groups on Etsy and if you ever hear Chad
13:48speak he'll talk about groups being the
13:50main driver for the passionate community
13:53as they are able to you know basically
13:54build these micro communities and
13:57generally speaking they're based in
13:58certain areas so there's a portland
14:00seller's group that meets up there all
14:03the time and and i wonder if if the way
14:06to work with the super users is to
14:09basically you know give them additional
14:10features give them additional tools so
14:12that they can continue to organize that
14:14sub community that was there at the
14:15beginning the normal users actually
14:17don't actually believe they won't use
14:19those features and Yelp has these as
14:21well Yelp has forms but you know the
14:22average user doesn't even know they're
14:23there and will never use them and
14:24doesn't even think of going there but
14:26the super users definitely are the ones
14:28then that take those features run with
14:30them and it basically gets them a way to
14:31continue to self congregate around the
14:35topics that kind of were there at the
14:37beginning and keep that initial cores
14:39tight and I think you know a lot of
14:41people talk about a marketplace needing
14:42community features and it's a question
14:45of why and I think that's probably the
14:47reason why you need something other than
14:49just a marketplace layer for
14:51transactions and buying and selling is
14:53ultimately something for people to buy
14:55into when when you to get that fabric
14:57off of social platforms and in
14:59communities you know the traditional
15:01social platform is always that 110:1
15:04rule right of a hundred users ten are
15:07somehow engaging lightly and then one
15:10are kind of super users and I think the
15:11same is true for for marketplace
15:13communities I think the the interesting
15:16thing is a how do you differentiate and
15:19how do you give you know sophisticated
15:20tools to to the super users but also how
15:23do you actually keep the
15:25kind of feeling engage in the community
15:28without necessarily participating on on
15:30a daily weekly monthly basis and you
15:33know at a book's the one thing that has
15:35had always had great effect was offline
15:38events so we travel law to cities where
15:39we met sellers that we never saw on the
15:42forums we we never really saw kind of
15:46calling in customer service but they
15:48came out to these events and they for
15:50that one day or for that one hour where
15:53we had a lunch they felt like part of
15:55the eight box community what so at what
15:57point did you start to do that because
15:59early on I'm assuming there wasn't
16:01enough cash to start to do these these
16:04expensive events that you know it may
16:06cost a few thousand dollars but at the
16:08end of the day cash is king is that
16:09that's an expensive idea to basically
16:12replicate it across the country globe
16:14etc at what point did you start to do
16:17that because there's a point where that
16:19becomes something that you want to do to
16:21start bringing the community together
16:22offline to keep that passion alive but
16:25you also need to be you know self-aware
16:27of kind of the financial situation of an
16:29early startup so what point today books
16:31really start that ever probably around
16:3340 or 50 people you know and 50
16:36employees employees yeah not seller so
16:39you know probably in the you know lowest
16:41thousands of sellers that were active in
16:44eight books and you know it's cost is
16:46the one thing I think distraction to the
16:47businesses is the other one you know
16:49having people continuously travel it was
16:52never kind of putting on expensive shiny
16:55vents you know it can be a quick get
16:57together for drinks somewhere in a bar
16:59or you know kind of a breakfast you know
17:01alongside a a book fair that that
17:04sellers attended anyway but I think the
17:07problem is really kind of for a small
17:08startup you know how many people can you
17:10have on the road all the time and not
17:12distract a business was that it were
17:14those were the people traveling and
17:16throwing the events a dedicated resource
17:18or was this like the executive know was
17:22part of the cella management team and
17:24then the executives kind of joined in as
17:26much as possible as as travel it out so
17:30one of the challenges in building tindy
17:33in 2014 everyone has Facebook pages
17:36Twitter pages like we're all plugged
17:38into these very social mediums where we
17:40feel a lot of pressure to do a lot of
17:41social sharing we feel a lot of pressure
17:43to build and build features for our
17:46power users and you know this is this is
17:49often you know a kind of existential
17:52angst for us because on one hand you
17:55it's very important in the beginning as
17:57Boris mentioned to really engage with
18:00and find those power users and find
18:02those people who are going to be the
18:04advocates for your brand and the
18:06advocates for your company and are going
18:07to give you very like key feedback in
18:10the beginning but then as you build more
18:12and more and more you then are you you
18:15then are faced with maintaining a lot of
18:16those things that you've built so far
18:17and there is you know you build up
18:21technical debt and you and you then are
18:23faced with with large challenges when
18:25you want to roll when you want to take
18:27things away because it's very very
18:29difficult to to build a feature and even
18:31if a very small subset of those users
18:33starts using it if you then remove it
18:36you'll feel you know like like the organ
18:38is being pulled out of the body so is
18:41its community a necessary thing for
18:45building a marketplace because the word
18:48marketplace implies transactions and so
18:52how much social transactions and
18:56community building transactions should
18:57occur outside of purely financial
19:01transactions I think that's a great
19:03question and I think if you look at the
19:06marketplaces today all of the mark
19:07places that we've been talking about so
19:09far were founded generally speaking
19:10maybe ten years ago five to ten years
19:13that's the eBay etc and if you look at
19:16modern marketplaces they're the the
19:19community actually exists and interacts
19:22in a much different way so I think that
19:23the the the marketplace that everyone
19:27talks about today uber you don't
19:29actually have a social side to it
19:31whatsoever the only social element is
19:33actually people saying tweet this code
19:35and you'll get free $20 or a free ride
19:38or we are giving away popsicles or
19:41bunnies or cats or what
19:42or the the distantes of the day but
19:45there is actually no community inherent
19:47on the platform itself and they're
19:50taking advantage of Facebook Twitter in
19:52the marketplace the marketplace is
19:54basically using these other networks as
19:56their social Avenue and actually not
19:57baking it in internally into the core
20:00experience and making it something that
20:02is taken off of off of the app so Boris
20:06what are your thoughts on that and kind
20:07of how that's evolving is that a
20:08different twist is that it the modern
20:11take on the old trend no I think it
20:14really depends on the type of
20:16marketplace when you look at uber or
20:19lyft for that matter in the end it's
20:22it's a pretty standardized product or
20:24service that is being offered right from
20:26A to B right and and you know for better
20:29or worse you know a lot of drivers can
20:33can fulfill exactly the same service at
20:36a very consistent quality which is the
20:39promise of these services right I think
20:42when we talked about the marketplace
20:45before Airbnb Etsy or tindy in a books
20:49these were all unique products if these
20:51were unique homes or handmade products
20:56Hardware these products were made by
20:59individual sellers but their own
21:01creativity or offered by by people that
21:05have an apartment to rent out so I think
21:08that the seller personality matters a
21:11lot and ease in these marketplaces and
21:15and these are creative individuals and
21:18unique personalities behind it so I
21:20think from from that point of your
21:22community is much more important in in
21:24this case than in a marketplace that
21:26offers a standardized transportation
21:29home cleaning whatever service so then
21:32the point is is the more freedom that
21:35you give the community on the platform
21:38then the more they should be able to
21:41express themselves and have features to
21:42congregate and built this sort of
21:45community on site because if you look at
21:47uber and into what you're saying there
21:50is actually a level of personalization
21:51that's it's highly personalized because
21:53you get into someone's car you
21:56don't know them that experience is going
21:57to be unique every single time where you
22:00don't know what you're going to talk
22:01about what this person you've never met
22:02them before you're trusting that they're
22:04not going to basically kidnap you and go
22:06crazy but the experience that ruber
22:10presents is actually highly highly
22:12tailored and highly controlled so by
22:15controlling the experience to that
22:17degree there's actually a very limited
22:19amount of personalization that you can
22:21actually add to the equation and so by
22:24doing that they're basically saying the
22:26trade-off is we are gonna standardize
22:28the experience and you're going to get a
22:30great ride every single time less
22:33personalized the less community less
22:35feel like you're actually buying into
22:36something that's bigger you know bigger
22:38than yourself and and that's okay
22:41because that's the trade-off you're
22:42actually giving up yeah and I mean you
22:44look at marketplaces like Amazon
22:45Marketplace I mean nobody there's no
22:47community per se I mean people sell or
22:49go there to sell as many products as at
22:52high prices as possible and delivering
22:55consistent service right but there is no
22:57sense of community either on the buyer
22:58or the the seller side but I think you
23:02bring up an important point about when
23:03we say community we use it as a broad
23:05term but there's community meaning buyer
23:08to seller interactions seller to buyer
23:10interaction there's community around
23:11buyer to by our interaction community
23:13around seller to seller interaction and
23:15I I think that every marketplace faces
23:18unique challenges where a meal brought
23:19up the the case in point about uber but
23:21that's like a bias that's a buyer to
23:23seller community but myself talking with
23:26Boris about his uber ride we're not
23:29necessarily forming community per se or
23:31having discussions deep about the uber
23:33community it's not enhancing my ride but
23:36now but when you have products that are
23:38where where other sellers could benefit
23:40from knowledge transfer about the
23:43platform and also from about the
23:45products and in addition to buyers
23:46that's where I think things get a little
23:48bit more complicated and that's when we
23:49have to decide what will those
23:51conversations look like like how will
23:54they form how should we encourage
23:55certain things how should we de
23:58discourage other things what would that
24:01feature set even look like on the
24:03platform thanks Emile thanks Julia great
24:05conversation about communities looking
24:07to see more things evolving over time
24:10appreciate you coming in today
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