00:00welcome to the a 16z podcast I'm Michel
00:02Copeland during his leap from the
00:05stratosphere Felix Baumgartner fell
00:07faster than the speed of sound reaching
00:09an estimated speed of eight hundred and
00:11thirty three point nine miles per hour
00:14plummeting from the edge of space
00:17baumgartner's returned trip to earth
00:19lasted just over nine minutes but there
00:22was seven years of preparation that came
00:24before that equipment had to be tested
00:26and pushed beyond its limit and so did
00:28Baumgartner it was the task of Red Bulls
00:31director of high performance Andy Walsh
00:33to help train Baumgartner physically and
00:35psychologically to do what had never
00:38that's Walsh's job to work with Red
00:40Bulls athletes and artists to get them
00:42to places they've never been before
00:44Walsh joins the pod along with a 16 ZZ
00:49to discuss the methods technologies and
00:51tools he uses to help get people past
00:54seemingly unbreakable barriers it's not
00:57all hitting the gym spirituality and
00:59mindfulness are part of Walsh's approach
01:01and the really good news is it isn't
01:04just world-class athletes or your
01:06favorite pop star that can benefit from
01:08Walsh's research and work it's all of us
01:11Andy so when you say high performance
01:14you direct the high performance program
01:15I think of immediately I think of some
01:17secret lab on an island someplace or you
01:19know within the mad scientist look about
01:26you I kind of get that now and again but
01:29we do have a lab we do have a place
01:31where we can actually sort of prototype
01:32new technologies new components of
01:35performance and that encompasses
01:36everything from the specific fitness all
01:39the way through to the psychology to
01:41cognitive social development even up to
01:43the spiritual development so we we have
01:44a space we call a sort of workshop or a
01:47lab and you know essentially for us it's
01:49a playground because the goal of the
01:51program is to enable that individual
01:53whoever they may be from whatever field
01:54to come in and have a vision have a
01:57dream about what that next step is is
01:59they want to take and for us to provide
02:00the supporting infrastructure or
02:02mechanisms to make that happen let's
02:03talk about performance under pressure
02:05because I think given that the Super
02:08and you know when it comes to most
02:10mainstream athletes like that's probably
02:12the most interesting
02:13question is you know when you think of
02:14unlocking human potential it seems like
02:16this unbounded wonderful nice to have
02:18but we're talking also about like people
02:20in the hard Stadium the arena of I sound
02:23ridiculous I'm just listening to myself
02:25because I actually don't play any sports
02:26or watching of sports but I do think
02:29it's interesting to talk about some of
02:31the challenges of performing under
02:32pressure I mean paint a picture for us
02:34of what it's like for athletes to to
02:36have to make decisions under those
02:37conditions and what are some of the
02:38things that they have to do and why
02:40performance science matters to all this
02:42here I'd focus on you know athletes who
02:46physically are performing at high levels
02:48you know most every day of the year and
02:50and the prep worked for the big game a
02:53lot of its in your head you know it's
02:54the coggan development it's how are you
02:56bringing to light you know all the
02:58learnings that you picked up and be able
03:00to deliver at the highest level at the
03:02highest stage so no matter how much you
03:03practice you're like saying half of its
03:05a mental game absolutely
03:06more than half it's gonna be a mental
03:07game you know your body's already been
03:08trained to go through the motions but
03:10when you get on that stage you know you
03:12got a hundred million viewers what then
03:14alright how are you gonna perform well
03:15what our actions are you gonna take and
03:16how that can impact the game yeah yeah I
03:19think it's a it's a great comment it's a
03:21great space I think it's a sexy space
03:23because everyone is engaged at that
03:25moment when they're on the 18th of
03:27August and the Masters there crowds
03:29watching they've got to drop that
03:3012-foot putt to win and everyone kind of
03:33gets a sense of that you know for summer
03:36that's golf I just so I think those
03:42moments are the ones that appeal to us
03:45for that mystery of it as well and the
03:46mysteries we'll deserve because yeah I
03:49think we do know a lot about all of the
03:50aspects of human development and the
03:52physical side we focus for many years on
03:54so you give you the space we can either
03:55sort of head up conversation and there's
03:58not a great deal of pure understanding
04:01about that particular moment about that
04:04that very precise moment where you have
04:06to perform the world's watching it's a
04:09big stage and everyone gets it because
04:12everyone can relate to it because it
04:13doesn't it transcends sport it may be
04:15the stress you feel at work you may have
04:17had to take a free throw in your high
04:19school basketball competition at some
04:21point you may have had to part I mean
04:23even public speaking like getting up on
04:24a podium and whether you like
04:26Gaylor have a panic attack or do an
04:28amazing job I would imagine it's the
04:29same kind of thing about how much you
04:31prepare and rehearse like in that moment
04:33you actually don't know what's gonna
04:34happen sometimes oh and that's and
04:36that's the mystery which I think crisis
04:38or about it and because there's less
04:40known about it when everything else goes
04:42wrong on the playing field people
04:44default hey they didn't have their head
04:45in the game that day so it's a great
04:48space it's where technology is allowing
04:50us to peel back very quickly and get
04:52greater and greater insight so it's a
04:53very exciting space and what we've
04:55learned over the years is as we've
04:57looked as we sort of approach these
04:58moments if we can recreate moments that
05:00create high pressure and high stress we
05:03can use those as training tools and we
05:04just finished a project that sort of
05:05focused purely on that just various days
05:08various elements of stress imposed by us
05:11on the talent and there was business and
05:13athletes mixed together and the results
05:15were astounding because they just got to
05:16practice over and over and over and
05:17these high-stress situations can you
05:19give us some examples of what their
05:20situations were and then yeah you know
05:22how people fell apart or didn't well
05:24it's always a combination so we one of
05:27our powerful tools is what we call our
05:29surf survival camp which is teaching you
05:31hold your breath but we put you in sort
05:33of stressful situations where we're
05:34forcing you to work under that stress
05:36and hold your breath and you have to
05:38relax and you have to have a
05:39conversation with yourself because
05:40you're underwater so no one else is
05:42listening to you so you have to get you
05:43basically you have to get your head in
05:45the right space and we had an example
05:48where we had some friends from the
05:50military set up some sort of what we
05:52call the James Bond disposal program a
05:54big ticking bomb that you had to defuse
05:57under time print constraints and that
05:59really created an energy because the
06:01team breaks down the confusion it goes
06:05off it makes a big nail noise a bit of a
06:07shock but it doesn't actually go and do
06:09any damage well that's one of the
06:11questions I have is how much does
06:12simulation really work because when I
06:13think of things like the famous Stratos
06:15jump that you guys did years ago
06:18I just think no matter how much you
06:20simulate or prepare for that and it
06:22sounds like I mean I'm curious to hear
06:23what kind of preparation actually did go
06:25into that because I don't think people
06:26talk enough about that we always hear we
06:28see the outcome on TV but we don't know
06:29what happened what went into that one
06:31thing that also comes to mind is you
06:34can't actually replicate the feeling of
06:36what it's like to be in space and truly
06:39moment in that moment that is a first
06:41time Felix is ever gonna feel that way
06:44and hopefully the only time I'll ever
06:45feel that way I mean how you sort of
06:47balanced that sort of training the
06:49simulation with the actual what happens
06:51and also what went into the Stratis jump
06:53well I think you're spot-on you can't no
06:55matter how close it is you know we the
06:58person who's involved or the individual
07:00always knows it's replica roots and
07:02you're trying to create a scenario to
07:04practice for it so you can't create the
07:06feeling of what it's like gonna be like
07:07this Sunday to be at the starting lineup
07:09on the Super Bowl so what we do is we
07:11use these other scenarios we pull you
07:12out of what you're good at we pull you
07:14into other spaces and maybe stand-up
07:15comedy it may be it may be holding your
07:18breath and that doesn't really matter
07:19because you for the first part you you
07:22detach from what you're good at so you
07:23kind of relax a little bit more there's
07:25no hopefully no ego involved and you
07:27also are in a situation we have to learn
07:29from the beginning so it sort of
07:31accelerates whatever the real you under
07:35pressure would look like we get to see
07:36what you really like not what you sort
07:38of hoped it would look like under stress
07:39and then we train you with tools we give
07:41you tools and and techniques to get
07:43through that and then the transfer is
07:45very powerful and we see over and over
07:48again if we try and fake a real scenario
07:50they know it's fake it doesn't work if
07:52we create a stressful scenario where
07:54like stand-up comedy where they have
07:56probably never done it before left ER
07:58stand up in the room make everyone laugh
07:59they've got a really dig deep and use
08:02all that talent to relax keep control
08:04keep composure and that has powerful fit
08:07cuz when they go back to what they do
08:08know it's actually pretty easy at that
08:10point bringing it back to football here
08:12it's where there's a lot of waiting
08:13right now for veterans the folks who've
08:15been there before so if a quarterback
08:17it's their second Super Bowl you say hey
08:19I assume they're gonna perform better
08:20because they've been here before they're
08:22not gonna have the same amount of nerves
08:23and that's what Andy and and Red Bull
08:25are looking to unlock and if you can
08:27really understand that you know you
08:29don't have to put them through a full
08:31Super Bowl experience you can put them
08:32through you know a bomb defusal you can
08:34have them go and hold their breath
08:35underwater for three minutes put them
08:36through these other exercises which will
08:38give them a similar sort of experience
08:40that they can then take on the field on
08:42their first time through the tunnel yeah
08:45and it's fun they've never done it
08:47before they're engaged or enjoying
08:48themselves the pressure and what and
08:50quite unquote is off in some respects
08:52because it's not they
08:52craft so they they throw themselves in
08:55and then they when they were all talking
08:56about it and it happens they kind of
08:57have something to connect back to which
08:59I love to kind of drill in a little bit
09:01I think that's super interesting because
09:03they know their sport incredibly well
09:05and they within the realms of normal
09:07they're super comfortable but where they
09:10haven't been is to say hey I need to
09:11unlock this creative side of you tell me
09:13more about the spiritual what are you
09:15developing from a psychological
09:18standpoint so how do you broach that
09:19conversations with these athletes and
09:22and is their willingness they're for it
09:24absolutely I think the willingness to go
09:26right there is they all want to improve
09:28they're all top of their game and
09:30they've got there because they have this
09:31passion to be great at what they do so
09:33as soon as you open up any opportunity
09:35for and you present it in the right way
09:37they they dive right in now you have to
09:39deliver to so we're very cautious to say
09:42hey manage the expectations this program
09:45is going to take a little time you
09:46having engaged so creativity is a great
09:47example through that hacking creativity
09:50project we ran and it's still running we
09:52unlocked a few key little tools that we
09:54know straightaway we can apply and one
09:55of the first and most powerful things we
09:57learnt was everyone does it differently
09:58everyone has their own process and
10:01there's not this one way to do it
10:02so as we're exploring this idea that if
10:04you're more creative on the field you
10:06create new plays new space you surprise
10:09your opposition with something that's
10:11never been seen before that's powerful
10:12and don't ignore that and then if we
10:15really want to get into it we probably
10:16bring in a high level musician or artist
10:18to explore their track alongside of them
10:20and you watch that conversation unfold
10:22in front of your car like okay let these
10:24guys can girls go sir so it sounds like
10:26the tools that develop from this are
10:28kind of individual to each person right
10:30and and but can you describe for all
10:32that even if my tools for for dealing
10:35with a stressful situation are somewhat
10:37different and so NAL's are there are
10:38there overlaps are there common themes
10:40that we start to see where people can
10:42lean on these things to help them
10:43perform at their best yeah absolutely so
10:45the individualization is at the very top
10:48tier because that's what it takes and
10:50that's that's the way we approach it for
10:52but the general lessons from that apply
10:54broadly because the fundamental
10:56mechanisms in play so the stress
10:58response we all undergo it's just
11:00different you may get stressed you know
11:02driving to work in traffic I may not but
11:05I may get really stress
11:05standing up doing a public speech and
11:07and you will and it said the kind of
11:10conversation there is how do we bring
11:13that mechanism to play and one of the
11:14simplest techniques is that learning how
11:16to breathe let me had a relax mat you
11:18see a lot of the mindfulness and
11:19meditation work I just went through a
11:21workshop a couple weekends ago for
11:22breathing exercises and it was mind
11:24opening actually it like it's kind of
11:26connecting it sounds so hokey when you
11:28just say it out loud but it's connecting
11:30body mind and breath as a way of sort of
11:33being like present in that moment and
11:35fully there it was just such a weird
11:37foreign thing for me because I'm not
11:38really into that sort of thing and
11:40that's an ancient spiritual technique so
11:42that's where you that's your angle to
11:43bring spirituality in the conversation
11:45without the rhetoric of the religious
11:47sort of overtones and you so say okay
11:49breathing is a powerful tool and it's
11:51actually been proven to reduce the
11:52stress and if you learn it's very simple
11:54four seconds in four seconds out four
11:56times a day four minutes at a time that
11:58will have an impact over a couple of
12:00weeks and then you may if you again
12:02another really simple trick we call it
12:03the five senses trick as you're going
12:05into a stressful situation to reground
12:07yourself pay attention to what you're
12:09feeling what's the smell in the room
12:11what are you hearing to say just be
12:18present people are like sort of thing
12:21but that's a way of operationalizing so
12:24you're walking out on the field this
12:25weekend and the crowds going nuts and
12:27the cameras are flashing and you know
12:28the guys will have their own techniques
12:30and one of them I guarantee will be to
12:31just make sure they feel the ground
12:33under their feet take a deep breath many
12:35of them will know maybe this is the
12:37first and last time or the last time
12:38they'll ever be here I mean hey get in
12:41as you note these are ancient techniques
12:43and we really hate the phrase life
12:44hacking I think I hate first of all they
12:46use overuse of the word hacking in
12:47general but is there a way to sort of
12:50connect it then to technology like how
12:52does tech play a role and and of course
12:54there's all kinds of tech I mean Tech is
12:55ancient like people you know molding
12:58things with stone is technology so I
13:00understand that in the broadest sense
13:01but like how is this sort of playing out
13:03with tech coming into this so so Andy
13:06had said you're able to prove now that
13:09these things are having impact you know
13:10people for for hundreds and thousands of
13:12years have meditated and practiced
13:14mindfulness but only today do you
13:16actually have the data to actually
13:19yeah the data is the key here and today
13:21whether you're measuring what's going on
13:22inside your brain or with your body that
13:25information is what's going to allow you
13:27to build a program around it allow you
13:29to democratize these learnings and take
13:31it from the quarterback on the Super
13:33Bowl field bring that down to to the
13:36average boy who has a trouble you know
13:39going out there for his recital and and
13:41what have you learned and what have you
13:42unlocked here that now you can share all
13:44the way on down to the average Joe is
13:46there is there a trend here where you
13:49can also make what you guys described
13:51earlier as individualized things that
13:53are highly customized each individual
13:55because it's a very one-on-one type of
13:57sport and sort of mass personalized it
14:00because that's always been the holy
14:01grail for education for example to be
14:03able to reach mass personalization of
14:05things is that something that's on this
14:06well we can yeah we talk about all the
14:08time because John pointed out this
14:10democratization of the talent is sharing
14:12these lessons and a broader platform so
14:15that everyone has access to it and
14:16that's the one way we also see it
14:18happening the other way at the end of
14:20the day the individual approach to top
14:22performers is what's going to be open up
14:25to everybody in the next few years and
14:26you see these trends and individualized
14:28health and medicine back to the point
14:30building made the data is going to be
14:32personalized to you so what was once the
14:34only you know in there in the realm of
14:36elite talent because of the cost and the
14:38sort of access to the people who could
14:40do it it's going to become part of the
14:42everyday person's experience and it's
14:44it's the trend which is happening so
14:46that's why I think it's a two-way
14:47platform so describe that for us because
14:49like you say we've we all have images in
14:52our head of you know elite athletes
14:54covered in sensors and with you know Bri
14:56oxygen masks on and blah blah blah and
14:58of course it's worth it for them and the
15:00people who are spending the money to do
15:01that but for me if I just want my tennis
15:04game to be better or am i surfing to be
15:06better and I have a smartphone and maybe
15:09a couple of sensors is that what we're
15:10talking about and all of a sudden we get
15:12to bring to bear all this stuff you're
15:14gonna see that happen more and more in
15:15the next few years you're gonna see the
15:17the sort of complex mechanisms we have
15:19in play at the top of the sort of
15:21pyramid just become simpler easy to use
15:24and that'll be something we both use and
15:26also translated down to the consumer so
15:28you'll start to see those prototypes
15:32fashionable much easy-to-use much simple
15:34information and at some point you know
15:36we're already seeing it those consumer
15:38driven needs are actually helping us
15:41create simple systems that we can then
15:42employ back up the chain so it's always
15:44this two-way funnel and sitting at the
15:46intersection of this Sports and
15:47Technology and sort of having that
15:49conversation with all these companies as
15:50they coming through is really
15:52enlightening because we see the
15:53opportunities both ways that's
15:55fascinating how do you um data is
15:57clearly the differentiator here as you
15:59guys everyone noted and that's true in
16:01many software business in general by the
16:02way but what what happens with the data
16:07that's coming out of like research
16:08institutions and scientific
16:09organizations that cuz all right are
16:11they sharing their data as well is there
16:12a way to kind of interconnect all these
16:14sort of silos of data because it sounds
16:16like if data is a real differentiator
16:18and then you have all these different
16:19pockets of data being collected in these
16:21different you know silos is there a way
16:23to sort of open source some of that or
16:25to share it in other ways or the
16:27flipside is to use it to competitive
16:29advantage right I'm a team and I know
16:30more you than you do about X Y or Z and
16:32boy I'm not going to share that data
16:34with you yeah you know we take the
16:36opposite approach because the
16:37traditional model was hey I've got a
16:39I think everyone understands now that
16:41the world's the landscape and somebody
16:44somewhere is thought this up faster and
16:46smarter than you have so we have a much
16:49more open policy we share pretty much
16:50everything we're collecting and we have
16:52examples of that through our different
16:54platforms and the idea being that you
16:56know the human entity and understanding
16:58what it takes to sort of help that
17:00performance increase is such a complex
17:02problem that we need as many eyes and
17:05ears on that information as possible and
17:07and and the other thing that's missing
17:09is the culture of which you employ that
17:11information so each team each
17:13organization has a different culture so
17:16it's very easy for you to come in and
17:18see what we're doing but we've come to
17:20this place through the people we work
17:21with in the types of challenges we've
17:23been a faced and that has formed a
17:27culture which means even if you copied
17:28everything you doing you're one you're
17:31copying us which means you behind us
17:33which is a great thing and to what our
17:36culture has figured these things out
17:37this way you're gonna have to figure out
17:38how it applies in your culture and and
17:40and that's why we're so
17:42sort of easygoing with what we haven't
17:44in the shop I wanted to bring it back on
17:46the data story to where it's not just
17:49capturing the data because at some point
17:50you're gonna have all these numbers
17:51floating around you the key is what does
17:53it mean right exactly I would you
17:54actually go with it correct and make it
17:57into actionable insights and with that
17:59you can really understand what the
18:00impact of you know practicing
18:02mindfulness is going to be and one of
18:04the first conversations that Andy and I
18:05first connected over was was around some
18:08of that research and he's got a
18:09naturally strong background neuroscience
18:11and he was telling me about you know
18:13that how it's actually making changes to
18:15your brain that certain parts are
18:17growing in the dark matter I believe is
18:18increasing and other ones that are your
18:21anxiety you're stressed that's actually
18:22decreasing with that we can measure it
18:24now we understand it with that we're
18:26building plans and actionable insights
18:28around that yeah absolutely I think
18:30again that's where the the exciting
18:33moment and this sort of journey is for
18:35us right now as for years that
18:36especially with respect to the brain
18:38it's it's kind of a mystery and it's
18:40still a lot to crack get don't get me
18:42wrong but we're peeling back that as
18:45layers and getting a better
18:46understanding and we've shown
18:47demonstrated shifts in brain function as
18:49a consequence of certain types of
18:51training and their to the positive side
18:53and so with all this it's now wow what
18:56can we do and how far can we push it and
18:58really if we crack this code what are we
19:01going to do with it are we gonna give it
19:02to this athletes of course but we also
19:04want to start putting it in the hands of
19:05say a research scientists or treat that
19:08top young you know potential you know
19:11person who's maybe gonna crack the code
19:13you know some of our world's greatest
19:15challenges treat them like we're
19:17treating an elite athlete now we're
19:19starting to get to some space where we
19:20can have the best of both world that is
19:22interesting and it brings to mind this
19:24notion of in the way we talked about
19:26doping in sports before and drugs as
19:29sort of a way of having an unfair
19:31advantage it's almost like data is like
19:33the new unfair advantage and and and
19:35what does that mean I mean what you're
19:36describing is actually more
19:37democratizing that which is a great
19:39vision to move towards but what does
19:41that mean when certain people have
19:43access to the data and can do things
19:45that then others don't
19:46how will that play out in sports I mean
19:48I can see like certain teams like you
19:50know not like doping in sports but like
19:51having data in sports like how is that
19:53gonna how do you see that scenario
19:56has played out I think we all know the
20:01Moneyball story which was just a great
20:02insight into the use of data to help
20:05frame up an organization also what's a
20:07big part of that story is the culture of
20:09that organization was ready to act on
20:10that data that was actually really it's
20:12actually real interesting you bring up
20:13that they were they had the culture that
20:14was ready to act on it but I think the
20:17most salient point of the Moneyball
20:18story and the whole origin of
20:19sabermetrics as a field and that cons on
20:22that in that context is something that
20:24could actually make a difference is that
20:26they were desperate they didn't have any
20:27other choice and that's not necessarily
20:28two of the top performing teams just
20:31like big companies they're incentive to
20:33keep the status quo and do what's
20:34working they don't actually want to try
20:36out new things so how do you see this
20:37playing out with people who are trying
20:39to quote disrupt themselves and try out
20:41new different things how are they
20:43incentive to actually embrace it well
20:46you know speaking broadly I think people
20:48now have a sense that you've got to keep
20:50you know innovating you've got to keep
20:53pushing this edge now and and and you
20:55can't be sitting back on you know what
20:57is what has worked as much as we have in
20:59the past and it's just the natural pace
21:00of many of the industries we work in and
21:02you know I think we're seeing and I
21:04think again the Jordan made another at
21:06that point on contextualizing it putting
21:07it into the right context and I may use
21:09the word culture and it changeably but
21:11understanding what it really means and
21:13how it can be applied and used and
21:15that's the big frontier for us to still
21:17crack I mean everyone's collecting a lot
21:18of stuff right now especially in these
21:20fields and we're collecting it in some
21:22cases even ourselves with a hope that in
21:24a couple of years we get good enough to
21:25understand it so retro actively
21:27accessing it so it's an interesting time
21:29do you think that the gap between the
21:32sort of highest performing athletes
21:33increases or decreases as this gets out
21:36there which another way to ask that
21:37question there are folks who are you
21:39know far and away the best in their
21:41sport for whatever reasons are they just
21:43better at this stuff kind of naturally
21:45or intuitively than others and it can
21:49others catch up and then finally does
21:51that mean we all get to be world-class
21:52athletes or at least be much much better
21:55I'm much much better at what we want to
21:57be good at there's no way you're going
22:14at the end of the day there are certain
22:17tasks or certain you know careers that
22:21we embark upon it because unnaturally
22:23because we have an affinity for know we
22:24had a natural talent people like to do
22:26what they good at and in some sports
22:28obviously you just selected because of
22:30the engine picked the right parents and
22:33you're in the right place at the right
22:35time so let's not take away the art from
22:37all this science but at the same time
22:39and that may may allow you to become
22:41world champion in that particular field
22:43per se but what we do know is that
22:46understanding a lot more about you and
22:48through this process of data and and and
22:50the greater technologies that are coming
22:52to our hands to sort of unpick this sort
22:54of puzzle is that you can definitely
22:57move up and become and sort of realize
22:59more of your potential it's the
23:01conversation is your potential best in
23:03the world or just better what you're
23:04doing and right you know that's the
23:06reality check at some point you're like
23:07I'm like you I'm not gonna be dunking
23:09pretty any time I actually want to bring
23:12up a sport that I actually do know
23:13something about which is eSports and
23:15it's one of my biggest pet peeves by the
23:17way is a little sidebar commentary here
23:19that the US media did not cover it until
23:22very recently um anyway I just want to
23:25put that out there for a moment because
23:27this is a fast-growing phenomenon around
23:29the world and it's only become I've
23:31noticed in the last couple of years here
23:33in the US it basically ought to be a
23:35sport right that's exactly right people
23:37always argue about whether or not it's a
23:38sport and I ran an op-ed a few years ago
23:40from Kevin Morris arguing that it is in
23:42fact a sports because s port because it
23:44has all the attributes of any other
23:45sport it just happens to be people
23:48playing computer games that is the rules
23:51of what you've learned in physical
23:53performance science how does it sort of
23:55apply to something like eSports are you
23:57noticing an interesting trends there
23:59changes or differences it's the classic
24:02model like I said before we learn from
24:03every talent we work with kind of talent
24:06we work with in and again when you watch
24:08these young performers and in the
24:10eSports community do what they do it
24:13top of the game it's a staggering you
24:15know you'd have to stand behind them and
24:17watch the number of moves in making the
24:19number decisions they're making and a
24:21lot of similarities to you know
24:22traditional sports you know you make a
24:23mistake you've got to recover you can't
24:25hang on to that you've and if you do
24:27you're gonna get beaten there you've got
24:28to deal with a lot of differentiation
24:29and stimulate you've got to bring a lot
24:31information in to make quick decisions
24:32so no different in many cases that the
24:36skill sets are very similar and what's
24:38actually true as I said before is the
24:40idea that they're best-in-class they've
24:43spent many years doing this what can we
24:45learn why why are they so good and many
24:48cases in the work we've been looking at
24:50what we're having to do to understand
24:52why they're so good the tools the
24:54technologies the systems we're having to
24:57put in place we're learning things that
24:59try and apply directly back to the
25:01athlete population and vice versa we've
25:04also done work with the hacking
25:05community and this what we call the
25:07cyber athlete again it's all cognitive
25:09performance so it's not just us
25:10interested from gaming and entertainment
25:12there's a there's a lot of interest in
25:14the athlete of the future who's going to
25:17be cognitively to the dominant and how
25:19to optimize them and that's a big area
25:21of interest why why is it called si
25:23breath well I think there's the the
25:25performers at the hacking competitions
25:28things like Def Con and black hat I was
25:31like eSports but for hackers that's it's
25:33a competition they come in they have
25:34three days to as a team to you know
25:36break through whatever security system
25:39that's been set up and the winning team
25:40gets paid fairly handsomely obviously
25:43for obvious reasons one the team that
25:44wins may have shown you a new hack for
25:46the phone so if Apple sponsors that they
25:48can pull that straight out and fix it on
25:50the other area there's this prize money
25:51because you creating a name for yourself
25:53as a as someone who's very innovative
25:56someone who can solve problems under
25:58pressure and you obviously have a value
26:00proposition in the broader cyber defense
26:04community why the publicly or at the
26:07government level so there's a team out
26:09of Carnegie Mellon I think that's number
26:10one ranked and they year after year and
26:12it's not by coincidence they sort of
26:14they have this approach and it seems to
26:16work over and over david brumbley yeah
26:18professor there leads it up and he did a
26:20we did a prototype training camp for
26:22that community about four months ago
26:25what did you have to what did you have
26:27to adapt about your training camp to get
26:29it to work for cyberathlete audience
26:31versus the typical athlete audience
26:32obviously there's an emphasis on sort of
26:34some of the more psychometric
26:36evaluations and cognitive evaluations
26:38that just makes sense but we also do
26:40physical evaluations medical evaluations
26:42I mean you'd be amazed how just getting
26:44a diet right for an individual help
26:46their basic cognitive performance and so
26:49again the crossover is broader and more
26:52pronounced than most people expect and
26:54and then of course you know to put them
26:56in front of a computer and challenge
26:57them they're kind of used to that again
27:00drag them out and put them in their
27:01survival program which they did they're
27:03like what and so we see very quickly who
27:05they show up as and they show up very
27:08quickly in that space and that familiar
27:10toolkit is a really strong one it's a
27:14the very top of the game I think it's
27:16one of the only tools that you can
27:18employ to really bring about significant
27:22change I mean because other you know
27:23otherwise you just if you've been
27:25practicing for the Super Bowl for 10,000
27:27hours or whatever number you think that
27:28maybe another hour on that football
27:30pitches incrementally and just volume
27:33such a small fraction and what
27:35profoundly different thing are you gonna
27:37do on the pitch this week that you
27:38didn't do it for the last ten years
27:40drag them out of that space and put them
27:42into something that they've never been
27:43into before don't remember it they'll
27:46connect with it because if you make it
27:48enjoyable and bit challenging they
27:50always seem to have a good time and and
27:51again those sort of flaws or failures in
27:55the system per se is a very unfriendly
27:57term will be very pronounced very
28:00quickly you can talk about them address
28:02them and again when they go back to
28:03where they're good at it's I've seen
28:05this in another environment they have
28:07the tools to deal with it
28:09so it's always something to learn from
28:11these talents and and if you pay
28:13attention you'll pick out the powerful
28:16things in many cases what's transferable
28:18and of course they're not going to be
28:19the fittest people in the world per se
28:21if that's not a core competency of their
28:23sport but improving fitness the way we
28:25improve fitness fitness and athletes
28:27will definitely translate cognitive
28:29excellence which they're obviously at
28:31the top of the game of how do they get
28:33there have they trained it we bring back
28:34to the zillions and recovery every right
28:36there's all kinds of trades so so
28:38question for you Andy here
28:39you had natural you're gonna have so
28:41much insight 25 years working with
28:42athletes across a hundred sports all at
28:44the top of their games and so there's a
28:46ton there you can learn to share with
28:48others outside of sport but in some of
28:50your recent camps I was reading you know
28:52you've actually brought together folks
28:54from the Navy and startup CEOs and
28:56that's the one that I found very
28:57interesting so you're bringing in these
28:59founders and and putting them together
29:01with athletes what have you learned from
29:03from the founder story from the startup
29:06world that you think athletes are taking
29:08back with them or the other way around
29:10well voice your both ways always both
29:13ways I say so you know the founders we
29:15were in this last camp that performing
29:17under pressure camp it was really
29:18powerful because you have these athletes
29:20and you have obviously you're used to
29:22going into training camps you have these
29:23founders who probably haven't gone into
29:25training camp either unless they were an
29:27athlete at some point in their career or
29:28last time they're in that situated man
29:30college so straightaway you see that
29:34they're bringing a different mindset to
29:35the approach but very quickly you see
29:38the founders or obviously intelligent
29:40people looking across and see how these
29:41guys getting this done and they get over
29:43and us they start sharing stories
29:44tactically what are we learning from
29:46both sides I think the founders really
29:48brought this idea of adventure and
29:50courage like they were willing to back
29:51themselves and and to a level which is
29:54even surprising to some of the athletes
29:55like and there and there and their
29:58ability and willingness to take on risk
30:00the fact that they even turned up to
30:02whoa all right these people are willing
30:04to push the edge of what they they're
30:06capable of to learn and then
30:08interestingly a couple of the founders
30:09shared stories of how they prepare for
30:11their big moments how they get
30:13themselves ready for that big boardroom
30:15pitch how they got that first round of
30:17money and when they shared those stories
30:18the athletes and we're like oh of course
30:20that's what that's what we do and then
30:22they start sharing and we get out of the
30:23way we sit back and watch them translate
30:25of course then they're the the founders
30:27are fascinated by exactly the same
30:29conversation for the athletes and it's a
30:32two-way street and you know and again at
30:34the very top of their game I think we're
30:36we're talent and it's sort of it's sort
30:39of expressing itself in its most sort of
30:41beautiful form there's far more in
30:43common across these performers than
30:46there is differences because
30:48fundamentally the skill set itself is
30:51very similar what vehicles is going to
30:53manifest itself in so so you know you
30:55got these super select camps and great
30:56athletes and you know young founders are
30:58going there but but two things I'd want
31:00you know you did to put a forecast
31:02around you know what vehicle is gonna
31:04look like that we're gonna be able to
31:06adopt that technology and and when is
31:08we're earlier talking about you know now
31:11is the time to really embrace this we're
31:13at an inflection point in society and
31:15with technology where you just see an
31:17acceleration of adoption of all these
31:18new technologies so in this case when
31:22you when you're really breaking down
31:23more than just the physical side of it
31:25how is that going to be delivered to the
31:27masses and when is that going to be yeah
31:30I think that's that's a that's a great
31:31question I think well I think that
31:35inflection point is Saul Reddy happening
31:36up here in this part of the world I
31:38think you see a lot of these young
31:39entrepreneurs looking for these other
31:41competitive advantages in developing
31:43themselves I think you're gonna see more
31:46and more of that I think the idea of the
31:48executive athlete yeah someone who's
31:51worth a lot of money to you as an
31:52organization you've invested a lot of
31:54time and energy into if they're an
31:55athlete we're putting a lot of resources
31:57into making sure they're at the top of
31:59their game so I think that's a wide-open
32:01to directly when it's going to happen I
32:03think you'll start to see in the next
32:04four to five years some of these
32:06technologies that sort of harness the
32:08best aspects of what we've done whether
32:09it be the physical sort of development
32:14and optimizing that I think we're
32:15already fairly well down that path
32:17you'll see a lot more of this technology
32:18relating to understanding the sort of
32:21mind-body connection I think you'll see
32:23those tools you know the next
32:25generations of these headsets and things
32:27are they're going to start to give you
32:28direct feedback they'll start to become
32:31more consumer facing and public facing
32:34and then I think as we get into the
32:35creativity and those other less sort of
32:38measurable instances that's going to be
32:41the long run that's where I think the
32:43humans are still going to be part of
32:44this conversation for much longer but
32:45again for me that's the white space
32:47that's what we should be focusing on so
32:49it's a fascinating time in that regard
32:51with all the data training camps and
32:53tools that you have access to and seeing
32:56founders or athletes or any other talent
32:59as you describe it can you predict who's
33:02going to be successful and who's not and
33:04what characteristics or
33:05help you predict that yeah that's a
33:08great question I think you know I think
33:10band today are we're talking about the
33:13sort of having that interview with those
33:15those startups and sort of looking the
33:18individual in the eye across the table
33:19that's a big part of what we do I
33:21getting a sense of the person who they
33:24well we layer on top of those interviews
33:26obviously is metrics and if it's a
33:28physical endeavor thereafter we have all
33:30sorts of assessments and tools to sort
33:32of give us a sense of what kind of
33:34engine lies under that hood what's
33:36really interesting to me there's a lot
33:37of work in recent years and continuing
33:39to sort of grow exponentially in the
33:41idea of talent ID and talent recruitment
33:43especially for spaces and performances
33:49where physicality is important but the
33:51head up is sort of really really
33:54important and there's also powerful
33:56tools there we can we can put you
33:58through different sense of measures and
34:00batteries and get a pretty good sense
34:02and you know it's not a deselection
34:04we're not there yet but if there's a
34:06couple of areas that pop up for us in
34:08those sort of interviews and
34:09psychometric analysis we can start a dig
34:12a little bit deeper and kind of maybe
34:14bring that out earlier than it may mean
34:16I bet we want to know that too because
34:18you can never tell I'm guessing you can
34:21never tell who is actually gonna be the
34:23one who's gonna be able to really
34:24weather the hard time so building a
34:25company or doing something or as an
34:27athlete or any other arena but like what
34:30qualities are traits even in general
34:32sort of tell you like this person is
34:35more likely to succeed than someone else
34:36do we have a sense of that yeah I think
34:39there's a lot of there's a lot of
34:41indicators for us that come out and
34:43answer the assessments but I think
34:45there's also the sort of things you hear
34:47thrown about a lot you know if what you
34:49see written up in the boardrooms and
34:50locker rooms are of integrity honesty we
34:53have a program to invest a humility and
34:55how to encourage that because why does
34:58humility matter I would think that being
34:59on the field you have to be competitive
35:00and aggressive and not necessarily
35:02humble you know if you talk to a lot of
35:04the Great's over the years you see
35:06they're very self-aware and very
35:09comfortable in who they are they don't
35:10need to espouse their talents they're
35:13you know they have a they have a very
35:15distinct humility to know I'm not saying
35:17these are the there's a
35:18right or wrong combination either I
35:19think resiliency you brought ups a
35:21common term right now the ability to get
35:23back up that may manifest itself in some
35:26of the conversations have you failed
35:28before sometimes we have this saying you
35:30know a talent is a curse because if you
35:33come to us as the best in class over
35:35you've been that rising star the
35:37shooting star for your entire career and
35:39you come to us we know at some point
35:41you're gonna get beaten and if you've
35:43never been beaten badly and until you're
35:47right at the top we don't know how
35:48you're gonna unpack at that point and it
35:51could be a it could be a quick spiral
35:53down so I know there's a lot of work
35:55being done on sort of successful
35:57businesses have had two or three prior
35:59unsuccessful businesses in play and
36:02there's a lot of conversations around
36:03that and we we asked about that we asked
36:05it what's been the toughest thing you've
36:06ever faced and how did you overcome it
36:08so we get into courage as well and and
36:10your ability to want to take risk but
36:12more your ability to understand risk so
36:14just general things are really powerful
36:16as an overview you know we're not
36:20perfect at it there's you know I think
36:21you've heard the saying there's no such
36:22thing as a hundred percent selection and
36:24yeah but we're getting better and better
36:27at all the time and again the data is a
36:29big piece of that conversation at least
36:31points us in a direction to ask the
36:33right questions let's get back really
36:35quickly I mean sonal touched on this but
36:36and we started felix baumgartner yeah
36:40seven years you were saying to prep for
36:43that I mean I thought he just had to
36:44screw up his courage and jump right or
36:47let go why seven years and what happened
36:50in that time I think it you know I think
36:52that's the classic thing people see some
36:53of the stuff that goes on and they go
36:55wow they just turn up and do that which
36:57is yeah it's it'd be great if it was
36:58like that but like that was that that
37:00was a that's that was a flight test
37:02program you know Colonel doke getting
37:04just at the original record 1960 the
37:06original astronaut released and and it
37:08took us that sort of fifty years to even
37:10get close to that and I think the seven
37:13years isn't a flight test program is
37:14pretty standard you know you've got to
37:16come out you're trying to do something
37:17that's never been done before you're
37:19testing equipment you're testing
37:20hardware you're testing software you're
37:21testing the individuals and all of those
37:23different tests have a point of fire as
37:26you develop that plot like that process
37:27and you're working through those failure
37:29points over and over again
37:30to get to that final result and along
37:32the way we had our hiccups we had you
37:34know Felix has spoken openly about his
37:36challenges with the project we had big
37:38hardware files software files we had
37:41technology issues along the way and even
37:43just issues with the weather
37:44you know those balloons don't like the
37:47wind so they have their final launch
37:49when we were already set to go and the
37:51little gust of wind and reset two days
37:53later so as luck would have it we
37:56finally got Felix out of the capsule
37:57down to earth safely broke the speed of
38:00sound for in freefall the day Chuck
38:02Yeager set the original Mach 1 record
38:05many many years before so it worked out
38:08in the end phase like what happened and
38:09that's one of the big lessons I think
38:10for us these moonshot kind of ideas
38:12what's really powerful for me is that
38:14they you learn so much about yourself
38:16you learn so much about the organization
38:18there it's sort of things you learn
38:20ancillary to the final objective that
38:22seemed to have the most value and for us
38:24the great takeaways were that this sort
38:26of idea that training for these times
38:27training for the unknown preparing
38:29people to deal with that moment when
38:32things go wrong is a real important part
38:35of any preparation because anyone get it
38:37right and it's going right well what's
38:39crazy is that most people when they do
38:41those moon shots you don't know about
38:42the failures because they're private you
38:45guys were very public about that and it
38:47could have honestly gone the complete
38:49opposite way and it didn't and so it's a
38:51little it's a little bright I mean it's
38:53crazy and brave and and a little crazy
38:56you know again they said seven-year
38:58development time we'd spend a lot of
38:59time so from the outside looking in it
39:02probably looks a lot a higher level of
39:04yeah we were you know with the last
39:06thing a number one goal for us was to
39:07keep feeling safe alive this is a lot
39:15better alive so everything was geared to
39:18us are we really gonna go and we have a
39:20high level of confidence we're not going
39:21to risk anybody's life for the sake of
39:23the event and that's the that's the
39:26piece that really takes the work and
39:27effort to say this zero risk would be
39:29disingenuous but there you know we feel
39:32pretty you know you know pretty
39:33confident we get it to a level where
39:35everyone feels like this is we're ready
39:36ready to go that's actually helpful to
39:38hear because I think we have a tendency
39:39in the media when we see these amazing
39:41in some people call it a stunt in that
39:44literally was or like performances or
39:46like launching of rockets or ships or
39:48whatever we have a tendency to to think
39:51that's the moment and and it's brave and
39:53wonderful and scary but it's true and
39:56you remember that there's so much
39:57preparation that goes into that it does
39:59help you realize actually this is a lot
40:00more possible than otherwise could have
40:02been and all the way back to the
40:04football drive in the fourth quarter
40:05with two minutes left right you know how
40:06do they how do they make that final
40:08drive and go for a touchdown it
40:10certainly isn't luck you know it's the
40:11years of practice that they put in yeah
40:13yeah you prepared and again if you
40:15prepare well and you prepare for things
40:18to be chaotic and you say look today
40:21you've got a train and we're just going
40:23to keep throwing random stuff at you to
40:24make sure you're ready for whatever
40:25happens and if they get used to
40:27understanding what they operate and how
40:29they operate when things go wrong and
40:30how to address that and recover from
40:32that then they're in a great situation
40:33so if they are two minutes down at the
40:35end they've got to go a long way down
40:37the field to win that game
40:39if you've kind of given them a sense of
40:41what that's like before and they rely on
40:43years and years and thousands and
40:45thousands of hours of practice then you
40:47get it together and pull together well
40:49I'm going to get it together and pull it
40:51together to dunk and really the best
40:55surfer ever Andy Jordan thank you guys
40:58so much for joining the a 16z podcast
41:00thanks very much very much
![How To Succeed As A NEW & YOUNG Realtor [Deals Every Month + Luxury Listings]](/_next/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2FrtrRghgTayc%2Fhqdefault.jpg&w=3840&q=75)
