00:00welcome to the a 16z podcast I'm Michael
00:02Copeland you're about to hear a
00:04discussion that was part of our 2014
00:06academic round table this discussion
00:08focuses on Bitcoin and how it can be
00:11extended beyond its use as a digital
00:14currency participating in the
00:16conversation our Princeton's ed Felten
00:18John Hopkins Matthew Greene and our own
00:21Chris Dixon the conversation picks up
00:24with a question from the audience and Ed
00:26Felten responds a question number one
00:29though I guess so there are people who
00:31say bitcoin is really blockchain 1.0
00:33with blockchain 2.0 you could do what
00:36are referred to as distributed
00:38autonomous companies I want to get your
00:40thoughts on backs all right let me talk
00:43about this so distributed autonomous
00:46company there there's a lot of different
00:51jargon that people use to talk about
00:53these ideas of some kind of automated
00:55actor that is a first-class actor within
00:58a system like this they're sometimes
01:01called smart contracts or virtual
01:03corporations etc I really just for
01:09first-first these things are
01:11fundamentally equivalent to each other
01:13and second I prefer just to use the term
01:16mechanism right as an engineer I
01:18understand what a mechanism is and I
01:21think if we think of these things as
01:23companies or contracts we can I I think
01:30that tends to make it a little bit more
01:32confusing because they don't at the end
01:34of the day they don't have exactly the
01:36attributes that companies or contracts
01:38or actors have they're their mechanisms
01:42their agents their agents in a sense
01:45right I mean a corporation is a legal
01:48structure that has limited liability in
01:51certain requirements for governance and
01:52reporting and all of that stuff and that
01:54kind of doesn't apply to these these
01:56mechanisms so I mean I think it is
01:59really exciting and I think the idea
02:00that you could extend the blockchain and
02:02have all these new features and have
02:04these autonomous I think software agents
02:06is much better than I think companies is
02:08a terrible way to explain this but I
02:09think software agents that have these
02:10capabilities including the ability to
02:13transact funds would make a huge
02:15difference now the question is where the
02:17limitation to those capabilities I don't
02:18actually know where they are they may be
02:20they may be more limited than we realize
02:23that different question but then you are
02:26probably alluding to this given that
02:28you're looking at new capabilities of
02:31Bitcoin like technology using block
02:33chains to me the question really is the
02:35capitalist the question is why would you
02:37do anything with Bitcoin why would he
02:39not create your own coin if it has more
02:41features you would be a rich person you
02:42know well I don't know I mean I don't
02:45know if lightning strikes twice when you
02:47have these things but I do think I mean
02:48that's what we're doing so we actually
02:50when we initially came out Zurich when
02:51it was not very efficient we approached
02:52Bitcoin and said hey this is great you
02:54guys should adopt it and they kind of
02:55look to this money and they said you
02:57know this is not efficient we would
02:58never do anything risky and besides we
02:59can't change Bitcoin ever again and then
03:01they all got other jobs because they
03:03realized they couldn't do anything
03:04interesting but the alt chain the
03:05ability to fire up these alt chains does
03:07let you do these kind of things so I
03:09think that there's an important network
03:11effect that goes on here right Bitcoin
03:13has that network effect they were there
03:14first and so there are natural limits on
03:18the ability to create new coins
03:22fundamentally you have to bring some
03:25functionality to the table that people
03:27really value that that Bitcoin doesn't
03:30provide and so maybe it's privacy maybe
03:33it's maybe it's an increased agent
03:36capability maybe it's something else but
03:38I think a me-too coin is won't won't get
03:41off the ground now there was this kind
03:44of fad for novelty alt coins for a while
03:47but that died out pretty quickly I guess
03:49given that we have in the land of
03:51unreason Horowitz here right mosaic was
03:54the first browser and the Netscape is
03:56the company which made money so so to me
03:59I guess maybe bitcoin is maybe version
04:011.0 maybe the next generation makes a
04:03lot more money I'm not sure what so I
04:06mean I think there's certainly a lot of
04:09space for innovation here some of it on
04:11top of Bitcoin and some of it is
04:13something else but I tend to agree that
04:15bitcoin is not the end of the story in
04:17terms of the development of this
04:18technology far from it yeah thanks
04:22so I have a question that really segways
04:27want from what the earlier discussion
04:31about regulation was about you know it
04:36seems to me that there's a couple of
04:37features of of a Bitcoin like system and
04:43and what is that it's gold like in that
04:47there's a government independent or
04:54nation state let's say nation state
04:56independent quantified thing that's used
05:03as the basis for some of the
05:07transactions so that's one issue
05:11another issue is is this issue of
05:14taxation and you know both of these in
05:19some sense are threats to government
05:20more in Matt's instantiation of the 0
05:24coin but but Ed to some degree you know
05:27if you think really hard about how
05:29taxation is done today most of us are
05:32taxed in a way by our corporations so
05:36there's a trusted third party involved
05:38in the taxation process that the
05:41government has a lot of regulatory power
05:43over so you know it's it's widely
05:46believed that you know a lot of small
05:49businessmen cheat on their taxes right
05:52you know and and so it's a very
05:55interesting question how the
05:57nation-state responds to its way of
06:00doing business and I would appreciate it
06:03if both of you gentlemen could comment
06:04on that okay um all right I guess I'll
06:10the right so you alluded to the
06:14underground economy in the way that
06:15people engage in all kinds of
06:17off-the-books transactions in order to
06:18avoid taxation right and so a key
06:21question here is does the existence of
06:23something like Bitcoin make that easier
06:25or more common and you could argue that
06:29it does because it's a transaction that
06:31doesn't involve the banking system on
06:35and a lot of the unreported transactions
06:38today happen in cash and cash is an
06:40ideal technology for doing an
06:42off-the-books transaction the only
06:44drawback being you need an in-person
06:46transfer my sense is that the barriers
06:50to the things the thing that keeps all
06:53of the economy from going off the books
06:56the the factors that keep that from
06:59happening are not very different if you
07:01switch to a Bitcoin world right that the
07:03conspiracy to not report income has to
07:06be too large in a sizable company and
07:10the consequences for of getting caught
07:12to the leaders are too large and it's I
07:15think it's factors like that as well as
07:19a social norm that to just not pay taxes
07:22at all on your income is kind of not OK
07:25I think all those factors remain that
07:29said the fact that you may be replacing
07:33the traditional banking system for
07:35electronic transfer of money with
07:37something that is harder to regulate
07:41inherently is is an important thing and
07:44this is one of the things that makes
07:45people the heads of people in government
07:47hurt right they're used to saying well
07:50if if Citibank is doing something we
07:53don't like we'll call Citibank and talk
07:54to them about it so a Bitcoin is doing
07:56something we don't like we'll just call
07:58Bitcoin and talk to them about it right
08:00but bitcoin is not the kind of thing you
08:01can call and talk to they won't find
08:04themselves wanting to negotiate with the
08:06protocol which is not a thing you can do
08:08so III don't have an answer to the tax
08:11question except that governments will
08:12always find a way to collect taxes I'm
08:14not too worried about them what is
08:15really what is really interesting is the
08:17fact that lately I mean I lately means
08:20the last you know a few decades finance
08:22has been used as a way of essentially
08:24enforcing the law not tax law but all
08:26kinds of other laws and more recently
08:27there are laws that actually try to
08:29regulate certain behaviors maybe under
08:31the rubric of risky transactions but
08:34certain people can't open bank accounts
08:35if you have a business that's legal but
08:37maybe not savory you can't open a bank
08:39account and so I think the fact that you
08:41know these kinds of systems exist helps
08:43to kind of restore a little bit of
08:45balance to that and and that may be a
08:46good thing or a bad thing I'm not saying
08:48violate regulations or the law but
08:50historically these kind of systems cash
08:52has been important and electronic cash
08:54will be important too yeah I think it's
08:56important that it's already the case
08:58that if you are a reputable business
09:02that deals with large Bitcoin
09:04transactions those have to be reported
09:06to the government or you're going to end
09:08up in behind bars pretty quickly
09:14follow-up questions actually
09:16so if Bitcoin continues to grow do you
09:19think the Fed might actually try to
09:21disrupt it at some point at some at some
09:23points and if it did try to disrupt it
09:25could you speculate on how am i go about
09:28new york well right so you'd start Matt
09:31said New York the New York Department of
09:34Financial Services which is the part of
09:36New York State that regulates the
09:38financial industry is already looking at
09:42some significant regulation of Bitcoin
09:44they've they have proposed a regulation
09:47something called a bit license and you
09:49need to get one of these licenses and do
09:51all kinds of process and disclosure and
09:54and so on in order to be allowed to be
09:58in business you know in a wide range of
10:00businesses relating to virtual
10:01currencies doing any business with
10:03anyone in New York State and so we're
10:06seeing that for sure that is traditional
10:09financial regulation coming to the
10:11Bitcoin world and there's a huge culture
10:14clash that happens when some you know
10:16garage entrepreneurs get a letter from a
10:19guy in a suit in New York telling them
10:21that they have to fill out this this
10:23very long now reporting requirement so
10:27um thus far though I think many other
10:30aspects of government have taken a
10:32wait-and-see approach and I think at the
10:36federal level they've done a pretty good
10:38job of getting what they need out of the
10:42system like reporting of large
10:44transactions for money laundering
10:45purposes without wanting to disrupt the
10:49whole thing I think a lot of people in
10:53the sort of old-school finance finance
10:56and financial regulation world just
10:58think this whole thing is a bubble and
11:00will go away if they ignore it
11:01I don't think that's true and I think
11:03that as they wake up they may start
11:06looking at what they can do about it but
11:10it's also the case that by the time that
11:12happens it may seem larger and more
11:14established and more legit and so
11:15they're more likely to keep their hands
11:17off so the the scarcity of the number of
11:21currencies comes today comes from the
11:23number of countries it's a zeroth-order
11:25right and then this scarcity of the
11:28number of precious metals comes from the
11:30periodic table but there's only certain
11:32number of elements what I think I heard
11:34you say was that you think the scarcity
11:36of cryptocurrencies as in Bitcoin maybe
11:39one or two others in the in the steady
11:41state comes from the existence of a
11:44network effect that there can be only
11:45one Facebook and GooglePlus can't ever
11:48happen in that world do you but are you
11:53basically saying that there's going to
11:54reach a point where you can layer on top
11:56of Bitcoin or whatever comes after it
11:58enough features that will basically
12:01solve all the needs for privacy and
12:03speed and size and everything that there
12:06won't need to be another one in in the
12:10sense that if I want something that's
12:11more secure can I add another you know
12:14twelve bits to you know the size of my
12:17security hash and why why would it ever
12:20why would it ever stop if we think about
12:22features only becoming you know more
12:25rich and more important I don't know
12:28that it will stop at the sense that I
12:30think it's the case that if you can
12:32convince the community that you're a new
12:34thing is enough better in along some
12:37dimension they really care about then
12:39there will be a space for your currency
12:41to to get a foothold maybe something
12:44that existed before falls away right
12:47someone else had the most secure or most
12:49private or most efficient or fastest
12:53transaction clearing currency before but
12:56now they don't anymore you do and just
12:58like what it would if you think about
12:59what it would take to displace Facebook
13:02as the Big Foot social network you have
13:04to be enough better that people are
13:06willing to switch even despite the
13:09network effect actually I don't agree
13:11with that I think that there's a room
13:12for a large number of altcoins and I
13:15the reason that the existing altcoins
13:16are not as popular is just because of
13:18inefficiencies in the way that exchanges
13:21work and I think that as exchanges
13:22become more efficient that property it's
13:25not I don't think there's an analogy to
13:26Google on Facebook I think that you
13:28could have Google and Facebook and
13:29transact both well I think you can then
13:31get to the interesting point where you
13:33talk about this exchange ability is a
13:35key issue exchange ability is
13:37essentially like like compatibility
13:40between different platforms right and
13:42there's all these strategic games that
13:43get played around compatibility I would
13:44expect them to get played here - I think
13:53it's partly a technical question whether
13:55that is something that can arise and
13:58operate efficiently and I know there are
14:00people even in this room who have who
14:02have opinions about that
14:05I think I think - York that's a great
14:07question it's like one of the biggest
14:08questions I think in the in the Bitcoin
14:10community I think the network effect is
14:12underestimated there are multiple layers
14:16of that so for example the company I'm
14:18involved with coinbase is going out and
14:20doing deals with merchants so you know
14:22they've been oust Dell and a whole bunch
14:23of other big merchants and that's gonna
14:25I think pick up steams you have the
14:26merchants you have the consumers they
14:28have one point eight I think million
14:30consumer wallets a coin base now there
14:32are other companies too that have them
14:35there's sort of regulatory stuff you
14:37know like people have done a lot of work
14:39now on bitcoins legality
14:41there's developers building on top of it
14:43there's the mining community which
14:44effectively provides a security layer
14:46and then there's sort of this intangible
14:48thing of just people having faith in
14:50their some value and pick coin right
14:51sort of like as time goes on presumably
14:54people will gain get more faith into
14:56your question of extensibility I think
14:58neither could be fatal flaws I think a
15:00lot of the objections I've seen so far
15:01like for example fees being too high to
15:05prevent that would prevent
15:06microtransactions what you're seeing is
15:08off point off chip blockchain
15:10transactions O'Quinn base is big enough
15:12now that a lot of the transactions flow
15:13internally and they can they can make
15:15those they basically waive those fees as
15:17an example and I think you could imagine
15:18I think it might may be like email like
15:20you'll have a Gmail you'll have a yahoo
15:21and like internally they'll probably
15:23have deals and cross trades but it's
15:26very important I think then
15:27psychologically to know the
15:28it's an open you have SFTP underneath it
15:30and I can always opt out right so I
15:32might depend on I think that you'll end
15:34up a situation like probably like email
15:35we sort of depend on a corporation but
15:37also reassured that you can always opt
15:39out I also think another good analogy
15:41would be TCP and like you think about
15:43things like DHCP is a good example where
15:45you think you're gonna run out of IP
15:46addresses but then you come up with a
15:48scheme like that which again like I
15:50think coinbase be an analogy there where
15:52you know but it's very very I believe
15:54it's very very important to have an open
15:56protocol at the basis of it that has
15:58strong network effects but what if you
16:00can't opt out I mean what if it becomes
16:02the case that regulation says coinbase
16:04is trusted because they know their
16:05customers like for example with the IRS
16:09ruling its first that sounds terrible
16:11you have to compute all of your changes
16:13turns out what coinbase will do that for
16:14you now on as a coin base shareholder
16:17that's good for us right because we can
16:18provide a service to your point it's bad
16:20for the community I think because you're
16:21suddenly dependent on places like coin
16:23base for that raises the cost the cost
16:25advantage right that's right but then
16:26but the open source community is very
16:27very you know advanced as well and I bet
16:30you there it's going to be interesting
16:32open alternatives as well so but but
16:35it's a great question I just think it's
16:36to me it's sort of like the other way I
16:38think about it is they're sort of ten
16:39thousand of the best software developers
16:41in the world are building stuff on
16:42Bitcoin and whenever somebody says
16:44Bitcoin can't do this is to me in some
16:46ways they're betting against those ten
16:47thousand developers you know this is
16:49very hard to predict how that will play
16:51out over time but so ya add a question
16:56everything that you showed you didn't
16:58really touch on time at all and that's
17:00the big thing about Bitcoin and
17:02cryptocurrencies that bothers me just
17:05the resolution time to guarantee that
17:08this transaction did that I have two
17:09confirmations I mean that's 20 minutes
17:11right now that has to happen and if I
17:13can actually do a transaction bigger
17:15than a certain block like I mobile s'en
17:18entice to try to double spend because
17:20someone might want try to do something
17:22faster like do I think that I think
17:25that's another case where a service like
17:26coinbase can you know if it ends up
17:28being there's five large services then
17:30internally they can internally Quinn
17:33base can settle instantly and if they
17:35have a deal with bit pay for example
17:37they can settle instantly I don't know
17:38sure no an internal I'm an internal so
17:42if your equates to managing both sides
17:45of it and then I imagine they'll be sort
17:47of interoperate like it could also be
17:48there's a new thing new a new
17:50cryptocurrency required I'm saying but
17:52I'm saying to me there's there's two
17:53paths to play out one is you sort of
17:55build layers of extensions on top the
17:57other is uses finally say you know what
17:58we can't do this anymore we fork it or
18:00quit or you know or you just have an
18:02institution emerge which acts as the
18:05trusted party for that function that's
18:06right that's right I guess me just seems
18:09like a big big hole in cryptocurrencies
18:11in general just the resolution time to
18:13ensure that this transaction happened
18:15and you didn't really touch on that
18:16portion of it during your presentation I
18:19think that gets lost on a lot of people
18:20they don't realize that you know to feel
18:22actually comfortable like if I'm doing a
18:23cash transaction in San Francisco I'm
18:25gonna go hand a guy a hundred thousand
18:27dollars and I'm gonna wait for those
18:28coins to come in I'm gonna sit there for
18:3020 months 20 minutes with him until 80
18:32of those confirmations because I
18:33actually gave him cash and I wanna make
18:35sure it happened and are there any
18:37efforts to accelerate that time so you
18:39can see some of the old coins actually
18:41anonymous all coins have middle semi
18:44semi decentralized layers where there
18:47are the users and then there's kind of a
18:48small number of super nodes and an
18:50experiment that some of these all coins
18:52are doing is trying to use those for
18:53fast confirmations I don't know if it's
18:56a good idea for interesting remarks I
18:59had two related questions the first is I
19:01wonder if you could comment upon the
19:02volatility the value of Bitcoin and
19:03whether or not criminal or legal or
19:06regulatory challenges are really going
19:07to influence it a lot and secondarily
19:09since a currency often is really used by
19:12people and is valued for its stability
19:14what would happen is of a sovereign
19:16state that was progressive decided to
19:18issue a crypto currency and peg it to
19:20their own currency and try and wipe out
19:22Bitcoin by actually introducing the idea
19:24of somebody actually would have a stable
19:25value let's see so when I mean when it
19:29comes to volatility it's the short-term
19:31volatility that scares people right
19:34there are longer-term trends changes in
19:37the underlying demand for Bitcoin but
19:41it's the short-term volatility that
19:42scares people no doubt and and I think
19:46this comes into play in two ways one is
19:49it makes it a relatively risky
19:52but risky investments exist if investors
19:55know that their risky then so be it
19:58and I think financial regulators are
19:59trying to make sure that people who are
20:02touting Bitcoin as an investment are
20:04clear that the price goes up and down a
20:06lot and so on so I think that will shake
20:10out the other issue is for that trend
20:13that transfer of money from Alice to Bob
20:15right Alice wants to buy a widget from
20:18Bob Alice has some dollars Bob wants to
20:20end up with some other currency let's
20:23say and it's convenient for Alice to buy
20:25bitcoins for dollars ship them to Bob
20:27and then Bob sells them for his currency
20:31so then the issue is a fluctuation in
20:33value that might happen during that
20:35period and that's like the twenty
20:36minutes to an hour period that it takes
20:38the transaction to really fully clear
20:39and for that there are companies that
20:44will mediate the transaction and just
20:47eat that eat that risk it's one of the
20:49things that coin base for example does
20:51if you're a merchant you want to get
20:53paid you want X number of dollars
20:54because you gave somebody a pizza and
20:57somebody in exchange for a small fee
21:00will guarantee that you'll get X number
21:02of dollars even though the customer is
21:04paying in Bitcoin and so they're
21:05businesses that will exhort absorb that
21:07risk and so I also don't think that's a
21:10big long-term problem
21:12I think the the exchange rate of Bitcoin
21:14will settle down if it grows you get
21:18more liquidity in the market and you get
21:19more sophisticated economic modeling of
21:23what the fair price is and then I think
21:28the volatility goes down somewhat so so
21:33Bitcoin has been around for a while and
21:35it seems that the number of transactions
21:38the daily transactions hasn't moved that
21:41much the you know it hasn't really had
21:44the uptake over the time that it's been
21:46out and you know it being out for a
21:48while I'm wondering what you guys think
21:50might be the forcing function that might
21:53cause it to grow especially with things
21:55like Apple pay coming down the line and
21:57visa still working on their kind of
22:00solutions to make things easy and
22:03what's gonna make Bitcoin successful for
22:05the market Silk Road 3 I don't know but
22:08I mean the International payment
22:10payments have always been the big thing
22:12I as a research matter I have a
22:14colleague in Brazil and I needed to get
22:17$10,000 from a grant to a subgrant
22:19to him in Brazil it took 3 months for
22:21him to get that money yet to set up an
22:23account so so we all know that there are
22:24huge problems with international
22:25payments I think that's one of the
22:26places where you're gonna see the big
22:28adoption but people have been saying
22:29that for a year or two now yeah and I'm
22:31waiting to see it happen it's a mean if
22:33I don't know if you take like a science
22:34fiction view of like you knows we'll be
22:36around for thousands if you were into
22:37year six so I would say first of all the
22:39second year point of transactions
22:40there's date there's there's the best
22:42date I've seen is the transaction volume
22:44has gone up the non-speculative like the
22:46payment transaction volume it's not
22:47exponential that was linear we'd like to
22:49see exponential so I agree I still think
22:51it needs a long way to go but I think
22:53they need to be more what we could call
22:55kind of native Bitcoin applications bill
22:57things like international remittances
22:59that you couldn't do with traditional
23:00payments and we're just starting to see
23:03at least from our perspective
23:03entrepreneurs come and sort of pitch
23:05that to it so the same thing with the
23:06internet like they built the browser
23:08they built the web server where's the
23:09Yahoo where's the Amazon where's the
23:10Google you know it takes a while I think
23:14yeah and there's a whole bunch of sort
23:15of practical usability and practical
23:18security issues that regular users don't
23:22want to deal with and shouldn't have to
23:23deal with and it's taking some time for
23:26the tools and technologies and products
23:29to arise that actually smooth that over
23:31so you know it's not like random member
23:35of the public who just wants to buy a
23:37pizza with bitcoins can easily do that
23:39right now but there's no fundamental
23:42barrier to that existing it's just that
23:44it's it's not there yet I mean one other
23:46thing I'd say is with all of the press
23:48hype around Bitcoin there's for
23:50venture-backed startups or somebody it's
23:52not that minute you know like this sort
23:53of been a little bit disproportionate
23:55amount of press to the actual
23:56entrepreneurial activity it takes a
23:58while for entreprenuer a lot of
23:59entrepreneurs who are like doing other
24:00stuff I'll say to them like what do you
24:02really want to do like Bitcoin it's
24:07actually to think Bitcoin and virtual
24:08reality the ones I always hear but it
24:09takes you know it takes years for that
24:11to really happen there at another job
24:12they have to go through you know so it's
24:14I think it's happening it just it takes
24:20incorporating this kind of technology
24:22when they basically have the consume the
24:25consumer space already in that area
24:31it's well in the case of Bitcoin it's
24:33very well personally to partnership with
24:35our company Queen Bey so that was good
24:36but selfish it no I mean I mean it's
24:41because the regulatory issues loom so
24:43large here it's always from my
24:45perspective good to see even the IRS
24:47ruling on Bitcoin like it's good to see
24:49just people acknowledge that this is a
24:51this is a real thing and that it can be
24:53is legitimately so I think from that
24:55perspective it's a very positive thing
24:59applications other than Silk Road yes
25:01anything that's like not associated with
25:03you know because so much of the early
25:05press was around these these illicit
25:07activities and things and so just good
25:09to just see it sort of being used in
25:11more mainstream contexts I think yes so
25:23this is kind of a random curveball
25:25question I'm not an economist but
25:26apparently you need some kind of healthy
25:29inflation rate for the economy to grow
25:31and you know that's not really built
25:34into Bitcoin I mean it's if you want to
25:36be Kimsey and you need like a what 3
25:38percent inflation rate for people not to
25:40sit on their money in a way and Bitcoin
25:43doesn't have that obviously by
25:45construction but how do you see that
25:47playing out and is it really gonna if it
25:48grows enough could it have an impact on
25:50how economies work so yeah I mean this
25:54kind of goes to the question of bit what
25:55is bitcoins monetary policy and contrary
25:58to popular belief Bitcoin does have a
26:00monetary policy right right now the
26:02monetary policy is grow asymptotically
26:05to 21 million bitcoins but that could
26:08change by consensus of the community
26:11that 21 million limit is not inherent
26:14mathematically it's just a number that
26:17is hardwired into the currently used
26:20software that number could change the
26:22policy could change if there is a
26:24consensus in the community that it needs
26:26to and so I think there is flexibility
26:29if if the community decides with a
26:33strong consensus that that is what needs
26:36to happen it'll happen so what scares me
26:38about Bitcoin today is not that economic
26:41issue not just that economic issue it's
26:43the way that Bitcoin is ensured that
26:45there will only be 21 million coins it's
26:47the fact that there are these having's
26:48of the mining reward and that right now
26:51mining reward is what drives the network
26:52and there are some papers out there that
26:55have done simulations or tried to look
26:57forward into what that means for the
26:59hash power of the network and it's scary
27:01I mean there comes a point where the
27:02network may just destabilize and fall
27:04apart and that's much scarier to me than
27:07the fact that some people are doing this
27:08radical experiment and nine nine kinds
27:10II and economics I mean that may just
27:13not work but the protocol blowing apart
27:15really will scare me and I think that is
27:16what will get people to get their hair
27:19on fire to actually change the policy I
27:22think for me I I would love it if if
27:25some some good economists took Bitcoin
27:28seriously enough to there's very few my
27:30opinion very few academics who are
27:31taking it seriously enough to even
27:32these questions and I think it'd be
27:34great if they did I have yet to see like
27:35you read like Paul Krugman or something
27:37and they just he makes very basic
27:38mistakes about Bitcoin and clearly has
27:40not read the paper and so it's hard to
27:41take those seriously and so for example
27:43if you go into macroeconomics one of the
27:44assumptions people make about currencies
27:46is that currency is tied to a country
27:47and that's tied to a country and that
27:49you have inflation and things like this
27:51when the the amount of the volume of
27:53money outpaces the value of goods in
27:55that country as an example no one has
27:57ever studied to my knowledge a currency
27:59that isn't tied to a country you know
28:00there's no you know country of Bitcoin
28:03or something it's just it's and it very
28:04well could be that Bitcoin evolves in a
28:06way that I think it will will be sort of
28:07a transmission protocol layer and what
28:10does it mean to have to need inflation I
28:12mean I'm not saying I had the answer to
28:13it but I just don't feel like a lot of
28:15the analysis so far has just been very
28:18superficial and that it needs to be
28:20stuck we would love for people to study
28:21both from the computer science side one
28:23reason we're talking about today but
28:24also on the on the economic side I just
28:27feel like it's it's almost been Lampoon
28:28so much that it hasn't been taken
28:29seriously it's funny people say because
28:38there's only so many of them the price
28:39will always go up but we have so many
28:41counters like gold for example I don't
28:42think anyone thinks gold will always go
28:44up there's plenty of examples of things
28:45with fixed quantities where the price
28:47doesn't always go up so again I just I
28:49find the analyses to be kind of
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