00:00welcome to the a 16z podcast we are
00:02sitting here today with Steven Sinofsky
00:04and Benedict Evans welcome gentlemen
00:07hello hello you two are sporting two
00:10models of the Apple watch I will say
00:12Sinofsky is wearing a Darth Vader black
00:15it is the it's the cheap one shall we I
00:18got the cheapest one because my thought
00:20was I'll end up having to buy another
00:22one in some short period of time that's
00:24the master plan I think and so for those
00:26of you playing along at the Apple store
00:28right now Benedict is wearing the one
00:29with the kind of lacy metal band and
00:32chrome or something stainless Stein it's
00:34a stainless steel and it's called a
00:36Milanese loop of all things a Milanese a
00:38man of all things okay great now that we
00:41know that so we want to talk about that
00:44the Apple watch you guys have been
00:45wearing them now for about a month and
00:47so that's time enough it seems to sort
00:50of know what it's good for so Steven
00:52give us your initial impressions well
00:55the first thing that occurs to me is
00:57that it's not a SmartWatch like they're
01:01like all of the lead-up to it was Apple
01:04entering the SmartWatch category and you
01:06think that everybody who predicts things
01:08by now would know that when Apple comes
01:11out with a new product it generally
01:13isn't one that fits in the predefined
01:15category notions that people have right
01:17and so to me what the the thing that I
01:20noticed the most is it spans all of
01:23these categories whether it's an
01:25exercise monitor or a timekeeping device
01:28or a risk-based computational device but
01:32so before you actually got this thing
01:34what did you think you were gonna do
01:36with it and then how has it changed or
01:39what are you doing with it um you
01:42definitely would put me in the skeptic
01:44camp before I I had it I'm not a gadget
01:46person I don't I haven't worn a watch
01:49and I can't even remember how long it's
01:52been since I've worn a watch and a big
01:55thing for me is I'm really not a big fan
01:57of notifications I've written a bunch of
02:00blog posts on that hunter walk at
02:02homebrew and I had a whole Twitter
02:03tirade back and forth because to me
02:05notifications are just a highly
02:07problematic thing which we should
02:08probably talk about a little bit in too
02:10right and so I was kind of skeptical
02:12that having a computer on my wrist that
02:16needed to be tended to that basically
02:18just told me everything that my phone
02:19was telling me would be a giant waste of
02:21time well and I know you've decided
02:23since that it isn't a giant waste of
02:25time so we'll get to that Benedict
02:26know you and I have talked and you've
02:28written about how people didn't
02:30understand that this was a piece of
02:31fashion and that you had to look at it
02:34as opposed to a gadget I don't think
02:37fashion is the right word because
02:39fashion implies it's sort of frothy and
02:41Phyllis and it changes every six months
02:43it's more useful to think of it as a you
02:47know perhaps a luxury good perhaps
02:48simply an accessory I mean the way that
02:53I that's one of the things I said on
02:54Twitter is you know if you only buy
02:57things that have a clear use case and a
02:59set of utilities then you would be
03:02wearing a boiler suit every day and your
03:04home would have one fluorescent tube in
03:06each room because why would you need
03:08more lighting than that and it fits into
03:11that kind of sense of it's a and this is
03:14the argument that Apple made it has to
03:16be a nice thing to own first you
03:17actually have to like what it looks like
03:19and like what it feels like to wear it
03:20and like just using it to tell time and
03:22then the other stuff kind of gets added
03:24to it afterwards and so asking you know
03:28what are the core use cases for this
03:30slightly misses the point because it's
03:32not the one thing that you will own that
03:34fills is void in your life the way a
03:36smartphone data or PC did it's more like
03:38you know buying a different piece of
03:40furniture or a nicer but you know table
03:42or a chair or lamp or you know you know
03:45why is it that we aren't all driving ten
03:46thousand dollar cars why does some
03:48people want different cars it's
03:49something that's in a sense that's why I
03:52said it sort of fits into the luxury
03:53goods industry and obviously there's a
03:55ten thousand dollar one but there's also
03:56a $350 one which is actually the lowest
03:58entry price of any Apple product which
04:00is the one that Steven bought so but to
04:03your point you have to like something
04:05enjoyable and pleasurable first and so
04:07what and then the other stuff kind of
04:09comes so have you started to uncover or
04:12unveil that enjoyment and that pleasure
04:14with it it does take time you know you
04:16don't have that oh wow moment that you
04:19had with the original iPhone or with you
04:21know the Mac or something where Sun
04:23it's his whole new world it's a whole
04:25bunch of sort of small incremental
04:26useful delightful things and that's kind
04:30of different that I think that's what
04:31everyone's experience has been a bit and
04:32that kind of comes over a week or two so
04:35it might be you know looking at your
04:37wrist and seeing what the Foursquare
04:39tells you usually in this first one
04:41you've just walked into or it might be
04:43swiping up and seeing oh that's where I
04:44parked my car and you notice Stevens
04:49point about notifications it does seem
04:51like well as I said another way of
04:53coming at that which is all the people
04:54who've written apps for it I've also
04:55having this puzzle so like the whole
04:57first wave of apps you look at anyway
04:58most of these are not quite right yet
05:02because working out white what the value
05:05white what's useful and pleasurable and
05:07enjoyable and having there as opposed to
05:10pulling something out of your pocket
05:11putting a phone out of your pocket or
05:12your bag takes time to work out Steven
05:15you were talking about usability and how
05:17it's sort of creeping up on you how did
05:19it begin and where are you now well the
05:23thing for me is when I you know when you
05:25start out thinking about it you you have
05:27these people who are all like oh what's
05:29the kill or app and of course like going
05:31back historically like things that were
05:33killer apps are always like in hindsight
05:35like it's not like you you knew right
05:38away that your PC was gonna be good at
05:40making greeting cards or balancing your
05:42checkbook it took decades for for those
05:44things that that really surfaced and
05:46certainly on the phone you know the
05:48first iPhone reviews were all about how
05:50bad it was at making phone calls which
05:52was like the least killer app of the
05:55thing called an iPhone and yeah and if
05:57you made when the apps came out the
05:58first way it took several years for
06:00Instagram and uber and all of those kind
06:01of things to come out as well whatever
06:03is such a great example and lift and
06:05general like these on-demand apps which
06:08like that totally changes the way you
06:10think of your phone and what's
06:12interesting is to me those are some of
06:13the more interesting apps like right
06:16away because they were easy ready to
06:18refactor the whole experience of
06:20summoning those or my favorite so far
06:22has been just the boarding pass thing
06:24because the the boarding pass element of
06:26it really shows really shows how you you
06:32can refactor the something that first
06:34you know the first wave of boarding
06:36weren't just printed out by the travel
06:37agent we're ones that you printed on
06:39your home desktop PC then on your laptop
06:42and then you know a few people were able
06:44to figure out how to show them on a on a
06:45mobile device and and now like this
06:48whole thing just works because your
06:50device is with you while you're going
06:52through the airport and and it just it
06:54sort of magically works and so I want to
06:56get at that like what like describe that
06:58magic for it in those moments of magic
07:00that you've already executed yes it's
07:01almost like I mean it is to the point
07:04about apps the apps tend to leave a lot
07:07of the apps remind me of like using a
07:08j2me feature phone app in 2006 where
07:13like you squashed way too much stuff
07:14down onto that screen and I think the
07:17stuff that really works is when it's
07:18just one thing that's almost like
07:21floated out of your pocket onto your
07:22wrist so you don't have to take your
07:24phone out of your pocket right like a
07:25boarding pass and I think that that's
07:27where where I think that the apt is out
07:29developers are gonna have to do a whole
07:31lot a lot of work before it jumping just
07:33to what was magic like I do think that
07:35the the wave of skepticism is really
07:39fixated on this to me on this notion
07:41that the the watch needs to do
07:44everything the way that your phone did
07:46it and and so like that that problem is
07:49that is never how a new device category
07:51evolved like in fact it by definition
07:53doesn't do everything the old one did
07:55and what we're in the phase right now
07:57are the people who are trying to figure
07:58out how to do the old things in a new
08:00way mhm and really you need to do new
08:02things in a new way and so like I look
08:05at it like might the way that I text
08:07message or I message somebody now where
08:10we both know that I'm on the watch or
08:12that other person's on the watch and you
08:14know all of a sudden like emoji becomes
08:16like an interesting way to actually
08:18communicate not just a fun way to
08:20communicate or even using the
08:23text-to-speech features and to me that
08:25was actually the most magical sort of
08:27experience I will admit it it was very
08:30early version when I first started and
08:33then there was an update about four
08:34nights ago and the text-to-speech
08:36radically improved in just functioning
08:39but I mean isn't this sort of Dick Tracy
08:41moment where you're literally I mean
08:43like I stood outside of the yoga studio
08:46last night like Dick Tracy and like
08:48people even in Palo Alto California
08:50on University Avenue thought I was a
08:52crazy person except here at least they
08:56right and so they just know how a weird
08:58and leading-edge I am which also
09:00happened the other night at Whole Foods
09:01I was I was like I was using Apple pay
09:05and I actually to be fair like a lot of
09:07people talked about the early setup the
09:09first two times I tried to use Apple pay
09:10I had no idea that I was supposed to do
09:12some whole pairing of Apple pay with the
09:15lodge and so I just kept trying to work
09:17on I'm holding my wrist and then I
09:18didn't know you had a double tap and I
09:20really did have to read the instructions
09:21so but like I like Here I am at the
09:25Whole Foods and I'm doing the the pose
09:27that you have to do to pay which is you
09:29have to turn your wrist like 270 yoga
09:31pays it is and and there's like a lot of
09:34people behind me it's Thursday night
09:36it's 8 o'clock it's busy and then I'm in
09:38a focus group with the person who was
09:40behind me asking me how it was working
09:42so they noticed I mean clearly everyone
09:44noticed the morning yourself like the
09:46cashier he was asking me how did it go
09:49if you get into you this would be a
09:51selling point today yes I do have an
09:53Apple watch yes yes this this was and
09:56people were genuinely like is it useful
09:58you know there was there were too I mean
10:00like so literally the whole line became
10:02this little ongoing focus group about it
10:03which one did I have when did I order
10:05which i think is fairly unique to that
10:07zip code but still a lot of skepticism
10:10and and I will say that the Apple pay
10:12thing is very convenient and someone
10:14asked me do I use it a lot and I said
10:16actually I don't because I'm still
10:18trained to use my phone right so I have
10:21to actually remind myself to not use my
10:24phone but now what's happened to me is
10:25my phone is just in my pocket what much
10:29more than I think it used to be in those
10:31scenarios right because like I can't
10:32wait on the line doing stuff with my
10:34wrist as opposed to having my phone and
10:37so by the time I get to the cashier I've
10:39yeah like a lot of the yeah I think a
10:41lot of the use case is about that sort
10:43of fluidity of you know all of the times
10:46that you take there's all these things
10:48you do with your phone where it takes
10:49longer to take your phone out of your
10:50pocket and put it back than the thing
10:52you're actually going to do like get the
10:54boarding pass or look at the time or
10:55find out what that notification was and
10:57whether you need to do something about
10:58it and somehow when you but also somehow
11:01when you've taken the phone out and you
11:02see the notification then you
11:03sort of interact with it whereas reserve
11:05watch your wrist buzzes you have a look
11:07you put your wrist down again and you
11:08have to do anything it's all the kind of
11:10the motion sensor means you can just
11:11raise your wrist and it comes on and
11:13then you put your wrist down again and
11:14then you can get deal without an hour
11:16later where is on the phone you kind of
11:18you feel obliged to do something about
11:19it I mean I do think a lot of the and a
11:23lot of it as I sort of said earlier it's
11:24almost like your D materializing these
11:26notifications and they're kind of
11:27floating there yeah we should talk about
11:29I had an amazing experience I I was
11:32visiting one of our portfolio companies
11:33the CEO and he had unboxed the watch
11:36like a half-hour before I showed up so
11:39he had a new app and he put it on his
11:41wrist and and it turns out and I think a
11:43number of reviews have said this as well
11:44like if you have a lot of if you don't
11:46mess with the defaults on the iPhone and
11:48you have a lot of apps your phone screen
11:50is just filled with notifications yeah
11:52it's it's tuned for will users as
11:54opposed to early adopters in San
11:55Francisco right and so you know we
11:57couldn't talk because his wrist was
11:59vibrating just two pieces from from like
12:02the endless note of anything off because
12:05it was like it was truly ridiculous
12:07which is a very interesting thing
12:08because I had already my phone was sort
12:11of you know in it at an enthusiast level
12:13I highly tuned it to not notify me of
12:15most things like right because I I just
12:18don't find them valuable because my view
12:20of notifications is if I want to be able
12:22to act on it and so seeing it and then
12:25having to swipe it and clear it and deal
12:27with it I might as well just look at the
12:28app and see the badges that tell me
12:30which apps to go look at and one of the
12:32things that I found on on the phone is
12:35that the apps that I want to have notify
12:36me have thought through are they're
12:39useful verbs or not and and if you you
12:43like too many of the apps are gonna
12:45notify you and then there's nothing to
12:46do except go to your phone and that was
12:49sort of the old problem for me on the
12:51phone this is great so as a person who
12:53doesn't like notifications fair to say
12:55right how do you turn your phone just
12:57this is for advice for all of us who
12:58would like to have a spare useful
13:01notification life like how do you tune
13:04it well my my view of it is is that the
13:06note I have two kinds of notifications
13:08the ones that the the app has done a
13:10good job where I can be notified and act
13:13on it and that's the terminus of that
13:15event like I don't need to later go and
13:18catch up right and the other is that I
13:20have some apps that are truly like
13:22emergency alert apps like I've got the
13:24earthquake app I've got the you know
13:26whether in in Florida where my family is
13:29right like that if there's a real
13:31weather emergency I do want to know
13:32about it so in otherwise it might be
13:33like the car is here we're like okay I'm
13:35gonna get in the court right and and so
13:37like for some of the for some like for
13:40the cars here one like actually I just
13:43use the app and and I I look at it and
13:47the notifications I sort of tuned down
13:48because I'm already in the mode of
13:50waiting for the car to get there and I
13:52don't want to be one of those people
13:53sitting in the house while the car is
13:54sitting out front I think this is a
13:56point about verbs that you know what you
13:59know there's almost like a forcing
14:01function that when you went from your
14:02desktop site to your app you had to
14:04really rethink what it was that you were
14:06going to do and what the fundamental
14:08experience you were going to give people
14:09was rather than just try and find a way
14:10of squeezing every single thing that was
14:12on the desktop website in which of
14:13course is the problem the Facebook is
14:15going through at the moment with
14:16unbundling and all sorts of other things
14:17so how they split their service upon two
14:19different apps and I think you have the
14:21same thing when you go into the watch
14:22what you cannot do is say okay we've got
14:25these eight things in a smart walk in
14:26the smartphone app let's work out a way
14:29of accommodating those eight things on
14:30the watch as well whether you have to
14:32say you know what is the fundamental
14:33thing that people will raise the wrist
14:35and then led to see and then let the
14:37wrist you know fall down by their side
14:39and it's probably not here are five new
14:41trending terms in Twitter which is the
14:43thing that the Twitter app is sending me
14:44which is completely worthless it almost
14:47kind of it's a way of seeing what is it
14:48that the the company thinks is important
14:50as opposed to what is it that's actually
14:51important to the user I think that they
14:53need to just be verbs yeah like I think
14:55if otherwise it's like I it's not the
14:58watch is it is not a it's actually a
15:00surprisingly good consumption tool
15:02considering the form factor and I I
15:03remember I tweeted like it feels like
15:05the first time I got a blackberry you
15:06you stare at this little pager thing and
15:08you're like there is no chance that I'm
15:10gonna read email on this thing and then
15:11a week later you're like I am not
15:13reading an email on my laptop ever again
15:15this is the bet and and so you get
15:18surprised that you would actually read
15:19through a whole you know man let me just
15:20peel apart that a little bit it's the
15:22best thing why because it's just right
15:24there and and there's no effort involved
15:28it's it's that combination it's right
15:30there you get told that you have
15:32something interesting to look at and
15:34then you're looking at it so there's
15:36just like endless motions the Herra in
15:38order to participate and consume and to
15:42act on what's happening interesting and
15:44it's slightly more but it's slightly
15:46more motion that you would have with
15:48Google glass where you've kind of you're
15:49moving your eye up so the stuff is just
15:51always there where it's your watch you
15:52can raise your host and then let your
15:53wrist drop down again there's a
16:02suggestion that everybody should stand
16:03up at 10:45 at the WWDC keynote it did
16:07tell me to stand up in the middle of
16:08yoga class when I was laying down
16:11driving down the highway for that matter
16:12seems like an inopportune time to stand
16:14up and you think wait that's an
16:15interesting one like you know that is a
16:17bug-fix because they know how fast
16:19you're going yeah I know you're driving
16:21said yeah that's a bug figure ok so you
16:22mentioned Google glass and one of the
16:24things that was hard about that was
16:26let's be frank you had this thing on
16:28but if I'm sitting in a group of people
16:30and then I lift my wrist to look at it
16:33the that signals that I'm bored you know
16:36that I'm like I'm done hearing you yep
16:39on the other hand it's better than
16:40taking you'll find out is it I don't
16:42know I am I personally like these are
16:44the kind of conversations that I think
16:45are interesting to have but they're you
16:48you can't really project where the whole
16:50social norms are gonna be uh-huh and
16:52like when laptops first came out we had
16:55big fights about like whether it was
16:57appropriate to bring them to meetings or
16:58not right because it was super clear you
17:00were focused on whatever was going on in
17:02your laptop and here we are
17:03a decade later with everybody at the
17:05meeting and there's just a norm that you
17:07can tell when a person is using their
17:09laptop for the meeting or not right and
17:11and I think that look if you're if
17:13you're in the middle of interviewing
17:14somebody for a job or interviewing for a
17:16job or talking to the reporters or
17:18portfolio come in and you look at your
17:20wrist that's just not polite in any no
17:22matter what device you're looking at
17:24it's not polite but there are times when
17:26you can look right like if it's about to
17:28be 3:30 we should it's okay to look at
17:31the the why that's when Steven Sinofsky
17:33is gonna have to leave us okay well so
17:35social norms will change and looking at
17:37our wrists will kind of mean something
17:38different maybe in six months
17:41six months from now is it going to be
17:44this continuum or do you think that
17:45you'll just keep figuring out more ways
17:47to enjoy it and as more apps come out
17:50and and what should app developers
17:51really be thinking about you mentioned
17:52verbs but how do we make this better
17:55well I six months for now is very
17:57interesting in use you know because I
17:59think that the some of the interesting
18:01work that really takes a minute to
18:02really sink in that Apple did and this
18:04is where they've really built like a
18:05very interesting platform like the the
18:08continuity work that was in Yosemite
18:10when they talked about it it seemed a
18:12little bit out there to most people like
18:15I'm browsing here why would I want to
18:17browse there and you know it's neat that
18:19you could do iMessage it's super neat
18:22that you could do iMessage on a Mac and
18:24then on your iPad or on your iPhone and
18:26pick up where you left off but there
18:27were a lot of ways to do that and it's
18:29super clear in hindsight of course that
18:31they had every intention of bringing it
18:33to the watch where that makes a huge
18:36difference that the most example I think
18:37we talked about the maps where like
18:40that's of kind of a weird magical
18:42experience because you you think at
18:43first how am I ever gonna get the map
18:45directions and looking up on your
18:46watching rows you just pick them up on
18:48your phone when you're in the parking
18:49lot then you throw your phone down yeah
18:52and then your voice keeps driving and
18:53your watch is notifying you turn left
18:54turn right go straight yeah I found
18:56walking directions to be almost like a
18:58kind of a superpower because instead of
19:00walk if you imagine walking down a
19:01street a crowded Street in Manhattan you
19:03know and you don't need quite where
19:04you're going and you keep pulling your
19:05phone out to double-check your
19:06directions whereas of the watch you just
19:08lift your wrist every now and then and
19:09it taps you to say turn left or turn
19:11right and so that is actually a you know
19:13killer app if there is one I mean I
19:15think you know just even his point about
19:16platform this is clearly you know and
19:19again this is what speaks to the again a
19:21sort of a thing I talk about a lot which
19:22is kind of a difference between Apple
19:23and Google which is Google there's a
19:25whole Google now story in here around
19:27you know making useful suggestions to
19:29you form the cloud for Apple the
19:31platform a story is much more about how
19:33this makes your iPhone better I think
19:35well and I think that the this is one
19:37where where I think people can overstate
19:39the need for the cloud side of it or
19:41understate the amount that they can do
19:43based sort of not really cloud but or
19:45clients but like on a client side way I
19:47mean if you think about all the things
19:49that they could suggest they could do
19:51sort of what I would call like query
19:53refinement against the search
19:54using all of the data that's in your
19:57calendar in your mail and your messages
19:58in your in your your iCloud profile
20:01there's a lot of information that they
20:03can use to then just powered by any
20:06back-end search right and so it will
20:07yield that sort of level of
20:09personalization without what some small
20:11percentage people think is that creepy
20:13thing where it's all stored in the cloud
20:14but that also means it's important it
20:16could split from your phone right just
20:18in terms of like look if this stuff is
20:19in the cloud if my watch can communicate
20:22with the cloud then maybe I don't need
20:24my phone going forward I think yeah I
20:26think that's true yeah I mean it is it
20:29reminds me quite a bit of the this kind
20:30of the sense you have when you were
20:31sitting on the sofa using your phone
20:33when the laptops on our table in front
20:34of you and what is the point that you
20:36put your phone down and pick up your
20:37laptop and actually you know quite often
20:38you you realize well I could be but I'm
20:40not and again you see the same thing on
20:42the watch where you feel that Apple is
20:43editing for you then I can't look at
20:45your diary three months in advance
20:46because Apple is going you mourn you've
20:48got a smartphone in your pocket you know
20:50take your phone out yeah I totally like
20:52you know I I definitely get that where
20:55I'm sitting there using the watch and
20:57and I realized that I'm not using my
21:00phone or I'm not using a laptop or a
21:02desktop and sometimes it's optimal
21:05sometimes it's not like the number of
21:07times that your you'll actually buy
21:09something on your phone when it would
21:10have been easier to buy it on a laptop
21:12but that would have involved like extra
21:14motion and it's this conservation of
21:15energy thing right so it's a fascinating
21:17dynamic listen a skier you're looking at
21:20your wrist which I won't take personally
21:21because I know you're just being
21:22notified of it's time to go you guys
21:24have never said magical so many times in
21:26a podcast which i think is a very good
21:28thing so this well you asked us what the
21:30magical moments were all right I'll say
21:33that's gonna be magical is how Apple
21:35like evolves they're their historic way
21:38of doing things has been to tether them
21:40and then untether them over time so what
21:43I think is gonna be interesting to see
21:44is if they can untether the watch from
21:47your phone so then I can actually leave
21:48your house without the Y and that's a
21:51big physics problem but it seems like
21:53you're on up there on a path now big
21:55physics can be fixed by magic so well
21:58we'll talk about this more but this has
21:59been really interesting thank you guys
22:01Benedict Stephen thank you thank you
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