00:00welcome to the a 16z podcast
00:03I'm Michael Copeland and I'm here with
00:05Benedict Evans who's actually just
00:08joined andreessen horowitz recently
00:10moved all the way from London he's a
00:12longtime mobile analyst and an
00:14all-around smart fellow benedict welcome
00:16hello great to be here at a 16 said Z as
00:20they say so it makes a good band name
00:25well you have to start the band so let's
00:29talk about mobile which you'd like to
00:31talk about and think about there's been
00:33a lot of sort of Windows OS Windows
00:36Mobile sort of news out recently out of
00:40Mobile World Congress but is the war for
00:44the mobile OS already over well short
00:49but it's not quite clear what that means
00:52in as much as Apple has about well in
00:56the launch quarter they have about 10%
00:58of all the phones sold on earth and
01:00Android has another 45 to 50 percent
01:04although only about two-thirds of those
01:06at Google Android and one third are in
01:07China or don't have any Google services
01:09and the remaining half or thereabout so
01:12the phone market will convert over the
01:15next three or four yes to phones running
01:17smart OSS or they'll be a kind of a
01:19residue of five or 10% of people who
01:21really can't afford them right and and
01:23actually the interesting question is how
01:24many people have an affordable data plan
01:26rather than how many people have a phone
01:27running UNIX or some other operating
01:29system and all the remaining grace is
01:32going to be at super low prices you know
01:33it's going to be at $50 or $75 or $25
01:36and there's a little bit of skirmishing
01:39around the edges yes so you've got
01:40Firefox and you playing one rather
01:43eccentric business model over at one
01:45side and you have Microsoft's Windows
01:49Phone which is now being combined with
01:51Nokia you selling in fairly small
01:56numbers in a certain number of middle
01:58common emerging markets exclusively at
02:01very low prices so if you look at
02:03Nokia's ASP they're really only it's
02:05very clear that only selling the low-end
02:07phones they're only selling the fight
02:08through the five twenty all the five
02:09thirty in the six ten and they also to
02:13give Geographic sales and I think they
02:15only sold five or six hundred thousand
02:17units in the USA last quarter so for all
02:20the advertising and the baths around the
02:22big phablets with the great cameras
02:23nobody at all is buying those devices
02:25all the windows phone sales so far been
02:27to people arguably you don't even really
02:29treat in the small phones so you know
02:33that may change and you know there's
02:34some interesting things around what
02:35Microsoft might do with that what a
02:37Nokia is trying to do with Android but
02:40the core I think is that you have iOS
02:42and you have Android and then you have
02:44people building stuff on top of Android
02:45greater or lesser extents whether that's
02:47the Chinese who are using stock Android
02:49but not using Google because there's no
02:51Google in China or whether it's Amazon
02:53who built a tablet than a probably
02:55building phone on their own custom and
02:57forward version of Android and Nokia
02:58I've got a fourth version of Android as
03:00well um but that's almost like um I
03:04don't know it's like looking at the
03:05second world war and arguing about he's
03:07going to beat the Italians you know you
03:11know it doesn't really it doesn't really
03:13yeah the the for practical purposes we
03:17have two substantial ecosystems and you
03:21know as things play out with the current
03:23dynamics which aren't really going to
03:24change in the next two or three years we
03:26will end up with seven eight nine
03:28hundred million iOS devices in use on
03:30earth it's probably about 500 now and
03:33we'll end up with two maybe three
03:36billion Android devices in use on earth
03:38billions a factor of you know yeah
03:41because sometimes well there's probably
03:43three and a half to four billion mobile
03:45phone users on earth there's quite a lot
03:46more SIM cards but lots of people have
03:48multiple since especially can go to
03:50markets like India or Africa for
03:52coverage and also to get all Network
03:54pricing deals and so on so you've got
03:57three and half to four billion people on
03:58earth you've got a phone you probably
04:00only really as a as a developer or
04:03it's probably the top two billion to two
04:05and a half billion or the people who are
04:06really spending money
04:07and the other half is you're looking at
04:09people are spending a dollar of five
04:10dollars a month two dollars a month one
04:12dollar months and buying twenty thirty
04:14dollar phone which is where the half of
04:17the market is now and so the question is
04:19well what happens on top of that
04:20platform right I mean have we seen this
04:24play out before and the PC landscape for
04:26example and are there analogies that we
04:28can point to to see where we're headed
04:30now well this is so this is a question
04:32Apple will top out you know so there's a
04:35not very obvious argument it says that
04:37the biggest ecosystem has a
04:39gravitational pull that sucks in the
04:41developers and sucks in the usage and
04:43that becomes self-fulfilling that it's
04:44got the best app so that's where the
04:46consumer see one the best apps go and so
04:48that's where the developers go and as a
04:50sort of virtuous circle and that's only
04:52what happened with Microsoft right 20-30
04:54years ago the problem is that there's a
04:57professor at my old college at Cambridge
04:59said the only thing that history teaches
05:01you is that something will happen and
05:04you know the dynamics of the PC industry
05:06was so different that it's really quite
05:09unhelpful to draw that comparison for
05:11example it's kind of the critical period
05:13of the PC industry most of the sales
05:16were corporate and corporate buyers
05:19wanted 1500 generic boxes that they
05:24would put out of people's desks so they
05:25didn't care what they look like they
05:26didn't care how we see the user
05:27interface was because they were never
05:28going to be reconfigured and they were
05:29going to run one out and they wanted a
05:31quote from five vendors and they pick
05:33the lowest quote and so Apple didn't
05:35have product market fit and Apple went L
05:38did and Microsoft Windows did right
05:40that's clearly not how phones get bought
05:43phones get bought by individuals on fit
05:45and feel and these experience and design
05:48and they're not by and large is sold on
05:51specs at least they're not sold on let's
05:54sort of sold on some of the experiences
05:56that some of the specs can provide but
05:58they're not sold on RAM and so an Apple
06:02now does have product market fit it's
06:03selling exactly into the kind of buying
06:07environment that seeks what they've been
06:08doing for 30 years but I think there's a
06:11sort of broader point and you know sort
06:12of the specific ecosystem point as I
06:16said if some presume for the sake of
06:17argument that though winner-takes-all
06:20smartphone mobile operating systems as
06:21they were with pcs that's where
06:23everything is so that's where everything
06:24is well I was going to have 800 million
06:27users before this time for those effects
06:29to kick in right now imagine you are
06:33Marks and Spencers or Target or Bank of
06:37America or califor or Aldi or Elmer
06:43you've met a careful but where where
06:45you're in the ads dates not over yeah
06:46well any yeah anyway but any retailer
06:48right and it is a like she in this
06:50specific point which is actually country
06:51by country issue all right if you are
06:54care for in France right now you have an
06:57Android app in an iOS app do you have a
06:59Windows Phone app probably not because
07:01there's no Windows Phone users in your
07:03country and the people you had do have
07:04Windows Phone you know it's too small to
07:06be worth following with but you're not
07:07going to pull the iOS app the iPhone app
07:10because that's only a third of the
07:12subscriber base right you're not even
07:13going to pull it if it was to drop to a
07:15quarter or even 10 percent of your
07:16subscriber base and actually if you were
07:20to look at share of value right now it's
07:22probably three-quarters of your basket
07:24size and is it and so the market share
07:27number it doesn't work in quite the same
07:31way you know when you're if you are a
07:33software developer 30 years ago when
07:36you're saying right we're going to
07:37invest 10 million dollars making an
07:39application for Windows do we Annette
07:41invest another five making it for Mac
07:44and there's no offices none of our
07:47target customers are bought a Mac the
07:49answer was no and that became completely
07:51self-fulfilling but if you are as I said
07:53a supermarket or bank or a movie chain
07:56movie cinema theater chain or any other
07:58modern you know service that feels like
08:00it needs to be engaged with its
08:01customers online you don't think do that
08:04kind of calculation you think okay where
08:06are our customers where is a significant
08:08number of our customers what are the
08:09touch points where do we need to be and
08:11Windows Phone and Blackberry are locked
08:14off the bottom end of that right but you
08:16know there's a vicious circle here and
08:18also a virtuous circle
08:19you know it's extremely hard to kill an
08:24ecosystem as long as the products good
08:27and the customers keep buying it you
08:29know the way that black killed its
08:32was by having a product that was no
08:33longer competitive but I don't think
08:36anyone would look at an iPhone and say
08:37was not a competitive product it might
08:39it would cease to be a competitive
08:41product if there were no apps for it
08:42right yes but how do you get that you
08:45mentioned value and it has been the case
08:47for a long time that iOS has sort of the
08:49value is accrued to iOS far more than to
08:52Android that ecosystem do you see any
08:54shift in that you know just by sheer
08:56footprint and/or by Google in some sense
09:00catching up or or those people are using
09:02Android catching up I think it depends
09:04there's a couple of ways to look at this
09:06the first is that consumer behavior is
09:08often shaped by self selection that is
09:11to say what is the kind of person who
09:13goes out and buys a $600 phone what does
09:15a kind of person that goes out and buys
09:16$100 phone and that's different in
09:19different markets so in the u.s. you can
09:22get a Galaxy s3 for free I would imagine
09:24look at the pricing you can get a good
09:26mid weight a good mid-range smartphone
09:29so why would you buy $100 smartphone the
09:32only people who buy $100 smart phones
09:34the people you actually genuinely don't
09:35care right whereas in Indonesia as
09:37someone who's bought $100 smart phone
09:39saved up for that and they care a lot
09:41but then you look at the Western
09:43European market there's a you know
09:45pretty clear correlation between people
09:47who buy high-end phones and the amount
09:49that they're interested in and engaged
09:51with all the things that you could do
09:52them and the people who buy low-end
09:54phones don't and when you then look at
09:57the market share of high-end phones it's
09:59half two-thirds three-quarters iPhone
10:02and the rest goes to high-end Android
10:04phones and then you know the problem
10:07with looking at those know the value
10:09sciences is that in fact if the apples
10:12only got the good customers Android has
10:16all the customers so it's got some good
10:18customers it's also got some moderately
10:20good customers it's also got Grandma he
10:22went to the store and said I need a new
10:24phone and they gave her $100 Android
10:27phone and so within that you say you've
10:29got a much lower average for Android
10:31concealed within that you got a big
10:33chunk of people who are worth having
10:35right but then when you add that up you
10:38get to you still get to
10:41an actual basket size or an e-commerce
10:43transaction or you know payment rate on
10:46Android that's half what you see from
10:47iOS and that's as I said it's really
10:49just a function of price you know the
10:50corollary of that of course inside of
10:52Apple was to make a one hundred and
10:53fifty dollar phone and you think that
10:55average would collapse loads of people
10:57you don't care and so that's why that
10:58they're they're not going to do that I
11:00mean the the iPhone 5c is as far down
11:05market as they go um no I don't think
11:07that's true you have to think about as I
11:09could make the mass a different way you
11:11have to think about the average and the
11:13absolute that's to say there's a billion
11:15Android users off the top of my head
11:17maybe a hundred million of them I've got
11:20five and $600 phones right and those
11:22guys are worth having right but if you
11:25apply that to the average the average is
11:27crappy right we're example has only got
11:30the $600 phone say their average looks
11:32really good and they probably got two or
11:33three times more high-value customers
11:34than or an Android well maybe they got
11:36the same number you know sometimes how
11:37you an out analyze it so you have to can
11:39be careful so thinking about the mass of
11:40the average versus your absolute um
11:42looking at the five seed um I mean kind
11:47of analogies get horribly overused but
11:49it is kind of useful to think about
11:50Apple as BMW I mean in a bunch of
11:52different ways first of all BMW does not
11:55sell as many cars as Toyota sells mopeds
11:58they probably don't consider that to be
12:01a major existential problem and you know
12:05there's a lot of mopeds in Android land
12:07and there's a lot of Lexuses in Android
12:09land and BMW care about Lexus but they
12:13don't care about the mopeds and so to
12:15their product portfolio which like with
12:18a fun thing about the 5c who's like
12:19Apple only made a BMW 7-series and now
12:23they make the 5 Series but being
12:25probably makes an s3 series and they
12:27also make an ASA you know they make some
12:28smaller cars as well on one series they
12:30don't make mopeds right but they do go
12:32date they have gone down that
12:33progression and maintain the quality
12:35level and I think today it would
12:36absolutely be possible for Apple to make
12:39a $300 phone that would know to use
12:41giannios line would be a phone that they
12:43could be proud of in much the same way
12:45that if you go and buy a VW Golf you
12:47know you know it's not an Aston Martin
12:49but that doesn't mean there's anything
12:51wrong with it right so let's talk
12:53the if the sort of OS war is over the
12:56mobile OS war is over does the war shift
12:59yeah it's all about what happens on top
13:01and so what does that mean and who else
13:04gets to play and that that landscape
13:06well there's there's a big war in a
13:09small war there's a small war which is
13:11people trying to build stuff on top
13:12build platforms on top of Android which
13:14is Amazon and Nokia and perhaps
13:16Microsoft in the future and in that case
13:19is a lot easier to see what problem
13:21they're solving for themselves and what
13:22problem they're solving for the consumer
13:23frankly um but the more interesting
13:26thing is when you look at what it means
13:27to say a smartphone or to say the mobile
13:30Internet and if you think about how the
13:33desktop internet worked we probably all
13:34had this conversation where you explain
13:36to somebody that the Internet and the
13:37web and all the same thing
13:39but for all practical purposes they were
13:41right you know there were a few things
13:42like Spotify and Skype around the edges
13:44but basically for 20 years the web the
13:47Internet and the web with the same thing
13:48and that's not a case on mobile that on
13:51the desktop you had this box on the
13:53screen and everything happened in that
13:55box and there was a little bit of
13:57fighting 15 years ago about who got to
13:59make that box and the Andreessen in
14:01Andreessen Horowitz has some opinions
14:03about that but frankly all the
14:07innovation was happening inside the box
14:08and you go to mobile and the browser is
14:11just one of a dozen different things
14:12that you could be doing or two dozen
14:13different things that you could be doing
14:14on that device and none of that settled
14:16yet either I mean if I was to say that I
14:20installed a app on my android smartphone
14:24in five years time I don't know what any
14:26of those words would mean I don't know
14:28what installs would mean because is that
14:30a web app is it something happening
14:32within a messaging system is it a card
14:34that's being loaded dynamically by the
14:36operating system as I hold my phone up
14:38to a menu outside a restaurant is that
14:40been installed I don't know what app
14:42would mean for the same reason I don't
14:44know what Android is going to mean in
14:45five years time I don't think anybody
14:46knows what Android is going to mean in
14:48five years time and how that interacts
14:50with Chrome and how that interacts with
14:51Google Play services and where the
14:53innovation and the the levers of
14:55interaction will sit on that platform
14:57and of course is also in a wild card
15:00about what you mean by phone you know we
15:01may be sitting here waving our hands in
15:04we're looking at watches or looking at
15:06you know smart smart glasses and the
15:08thing that's really missing in that
15:09space is more city acronyms you know
15:10something Sampson gave us at the phablet
15:13but we really need to be talking about
15:14thus much in the web lot as well to kind
15:16of go with it I'm wearing a swatch
15:18smutch anyway just to poke a little bit
15:23on that theme do you do you think that
15:30the control goes away from Google and
15:33Apple in that sense that like you know
15:35if there's all these different players
15:36if we don't know like who owns the
15:38relationship or are you seeing signs
15:39that the relationship is you know sort
15:41of shifting I mean Apple certainly has a
15:43tight hold but in the Android world does
15:46Google get to have the relationship or
15:47is it something oh that's an interesting
15:49question about what Google is crying and
15:51there's a Facebook story in here as well
15:53of course but there's an interesting
15:54question as to what it is the Google and
15:56Apple are trying to do and I think in a
15:59sense these problems that people have
16:01looking at these businesses is they're
16:02actually in a sense much simpler than
16:04people think Apple makes three four five
16:07hundred dollar boxes with circuit boards
16:09inside with a great experience right
16:11they're not gonna buy an airline so they
16:13can from a play see and flight
16:14entertainment system with iPads right
16:16they're not gonna buy a TV company
16:17they've got boned I'll get a bio mobile
16:19operator they're not going to buy an air
16:21freight business they make boxes with
16:24circuit boards in and they try and make
16:26them the best boxers they possibly can
16:28and Google is a vast machine learning
16:31engine that spent 15 years stuffing the
16:33stuffing itself with data and web search
16:36is an expression of that just as you
16:39know buying books is an expression of
16:40Amazon as a logistics platform and so
16:42Amazon isn't books company and web
16:45search is an expression of Google's
16:47machine learning platform so it's Gmail
16:48so it's maps so it's now so is the
16:51advertising platform that pays for it
16:53all but those are all applications that
16:54sit on top of you know a problem or
16:56little setup in a metaphorical sense
16:57they're all things that sit on top of an
16:59underlying machine learning it and so
17:02Google is not in the hardware business
17:05twelve and a half billion dollars later
17:07and then selling Motorola again yeah it
17:11was nine and a half was cash and then
17:12they sold a cable business
17:14yeah I mean that was a basically an
17:16enormous patent infringement fine as
17:17much as anything else I think no but the
17:21issue is you know just as you know Apple
17:24is not a cloud company although it would
17:26sort of like to be sometimes but it's
17:28only a cloud company as much as it needs
17:29to be a cloud company and there's a
17:31question for the you know coming back to
17:33our point about ecosystems the poison
17:34pill for Apple is not only having 800
17:37million active devices is Google doing
17:39something in the clouds that Apple can't
17:40do that means you have to buy a not
17:42Apple device right but it's hard to see
17:44how Apple you know to my point about
17:46what Google's trying to do you know
17:48Google is not in a one-to-one fight to
17:51the death with Apple you could argue
17:53it's in a one-to-one fight to the death
17:55with Facebook mm-hmm or even potentially
17:58with Amazon but Apple is a channel new
18:02for Google Google the objective is reach
18:04reach for the people can use it search
18:06you can see its advertising also reach
18:09it it gets information back into that
18:10learning engine and of course that's
18:12what Google+ is about you know Google+
18:14is not a search engine social network
18:15for having the sake it's about indexing
18:17the users his PageRank for the users
18:19around and so for GUI that and that
18:23means the sort of the as I said the
18:26platform or ended in Google and Apple
18:27both one because Google and Apple both
18:29got what they wanted but they wanted
18:30different things and every proudly that
18:32goes out and buys an iPhone is using
18:34Google search in Google Maps as long as
18:36Google search in Google Maps are good
18:37right Google's problem is making sure
18:40that maps and search you're good and
18:41then for Apple if you're using Google
18:43Maps or Google search or an iPhone
18:44that's not a problem as long as you're
18:46buying an iPhone and you'll buy an
18:47iPhone as long as the iPhone is good and
18:48that's Apple's problem so so let's shift
18:52gears a little bit and you know you
18:53mentioned Facebook but if you are an
18:56entrepreneur and somebody who wants to
18:58insinuate yourself into this ecosystem
19:01you know how do you do it these days and
19:04and going forward how do you I guess
19:08preserve your own leverage in in you
19:11know in the face of this massive
19:13footprint by Google and Android and an
19:15i OS well I think there's two ways to
19:17think about this one is that a
19:19smartphone is a richer and more complex
19:21and more sophisticated platform than the
19:23web and it's also a vastly bigger
19:26platform than the web I mean we kind of
19:28threw away threw around some big numbers
19:29earlier but you know the there will be
19:34as it might be three billion smartphones
19:36on earth with a massive range of income
19:39and capability and so I have an income
19:41of the users as massive as there are
19:44people yeah exactly what effectively be
19:45half the population of us will have
19:47smartphone and that compares with
19:50something like 1.5 billion PCs and those
19:53PCs are either shared at home or locked
19:55down at work and don't go anywhere
19:56they're not really portable and so you
20:00have twice the number of devices those
20:02devices as I said and they send devices
20:04are in everyone's hand all the time as
20:06opposed to being in a desk or in a study
20:08or share with your brother or something
20:09and so the size of the internet gets 2
20:12or 3 or 4 or 5 times bigger just as a
20:15consequence of the shift from PC to
20:17mobile and it still baffles me I get
20:18flamed right for daring to compare
20:21smartphone sales to PC sales so people
20:23think that smartphones are like still
20:25sink the smartphone into a toy and all
20:27right it's like thinking a PC is a toy
20:29and then real men need mainframes for
20:30God's sake and my smartphones all of the
20:33dominant computing platform and the
20:35dominant internet platform and will
20:37completely supplant PCs in importance
20:39and they have a much more rich in much
20:41more complex set of options and
20:43opportunities and ways of engaging with
20:45users and of course ways of gaining
20:46users and you can see that in a very
20:48small way in the acquisition of whatsapp
20:49which was a like a fantastic case study
20:51of everything that's going on online and
20:54one of the things that Illustrated is
20:56just how big you can get if you get
20:57really lucky with the right idea and
20:59write execute really well you know ten
21:02years ago not let me put it another way
21:05in the time of the first internet bubble
21:07you know a prototypical startup an
21:11archetypal startup you would have a
21:13hundred people and you've raised ten
21:16million dollars you'd have a million
21:17users right and now if you were after
21:20the races yeah exactly and now you'll
21:22have raised 1 million dollars and you'll
21:24have 10 people and you'll have a hundred
21:26right the whole thing has been complete
21:28turned on its head and mobile is a big
21:30part of that so that's one sort of point
21:33about scale I think the second point is
21:36that we're kind of in a prepaid ranked
21:38phase for how people discover and engage
21:40stuff online that's to say an app store
21:42now looks a lot like it looks a lot like
21:47yahoo director years ago I mean it
21:50always sounds like I'm trying to do a
21:52comedy routine when I describe this it's
21:54like there was a website that unlisted
21:56every website that there was and you
21:58could scroll through them all and it was
22:01news when there was a new website you
22:03know it would like you go to yoghurt you
22:05go to I swear to God you go to
22:07Netscape's what's hot page and it would
22:10say you know the the morning wood
22:14Arkansas elementary school has got a
22:16website like that was on the front page
22:20of your browser when you laid it apart
22:22and you know you see the SIP to meet my
22:25point is that's what an app store is now
22:27right you know you can browse every app
22:29that there is but there's a million apps
22:31so we haven't we haven't moved to the
22:34point where we discover okay how do we
22:37know what's going on and part of that is
22:40some sort of manual curation part of it
22:42is better search in the app stores and
22:43it's you know it's a generic problem for
22:45both Apple and Google they've got a
22:46million apps in their store right um but
22:48I don't think that is an execution
22:50problem in a kind of it's not a question
22:51of improving the execution of what
22:53they're doing now I mean to me you know
22:55a startup that says you we made an app
22:58and it's in the App Store and it can't
23:00be discovered he's like a writer who
23:02says I wrote this book and it's in
23:04Amazon and no one can discover it
23:06they're like well they've got 25 million
23:10they can't put your book on the home
23:11page necessarily right so it's up to you
23:14and and yet when you say it's up to you
23:18well but there's no SEO there's no SEM
23:21equivalent it doesn't follow that the
23:23answer is that Google will do better
23:24search or deep linking or any of these
23:26initiatives is the answer but clearly we
23:28lack an answer and we lack an answer
23:31also in a much much more complex world
23:33because as I said it's not just about
23:36store you know if I was to send you a
23:38restaurant review in a messaging app you
23:41probably shouldn't arrive as a dumb URL
23:43string as a piece of text what should
23:45happen is that the restaurant review
23:47should appear on your phone screen and
23:48you should be able to interact with it
23:50and then you should be able to save it
23:51to your home screen and then you say
23:52well what's just happened if I just
23:54install the native app does it matter
23:56right does it mean anything to talk
23:58about html5 versus native code not
24:00really what matters is you know how does
24:03it get onto your phone how do you
24:04interact with it and all those questions
24:05frankly are still wide open and to some
24:07extent those are in the hands of Apple
24:09and Google has a platform owners who can
24:11make kind of elemental changes and in
24:12what can be done on the on the platform
24:14but they're also in the harness of
24:15Facebook they're in the hands of
24:16whatsapp you see companies like line and
24:19WeChat in particular being very
24:20aggressive in trying to turn their
24:21messaging systems into social platforms
24:26application platforms engagement and
24:28identity platforms on top of the
24:30smartphone OS and neutral - whether
24:32you're on IRS or Android so there's a
24:34sort of swirling soup of interaction and
24:37engagement and user acquisition and
24:39identity and payment sitting on top of
24:42iOS and Android that Apple and Google
24:44have some control over in that they can
24:49offer new options but they don't really
24:52don't control the direction or vich
24:54right so it sounds like what you're
24:56saying some ways and this relates to
24:57Yahoo is that you know this war is over
24:59and going back to Yahoo Yahoo won that
25:01war but turns out there was another war
25:03to be fought and yeah it's like one it's
25:05actually it's like talking about browser
25:06Wars uh-huh you know it's like I don't
25:08think Mark Zuckerberg spends a lot of
25:12time thinking about Internet Explorer
25:14voice versus Chrome versus Safari versus
25:17Firefox right you know it's the kind of
25:19you know by the early 2000s it just kind
25:22of became irrelevant and yes you know it
25:24might have gone another way but it
25:25didn't and I think you know to a degree
25:27you could suggest that smartphones sort
25:31of might go in that direction now they
25:33might not if Apple or Google or both
25:36you know extend their plan in depending
25:38on how they continue to extend their
25:40on this in terms of what you can do on
25:41the device but you know and clearly
25:43Apple in particular is being very
25:45I mean his'n I think there's another
25:48sort of an interesting contrast to draw
25:50here so if you look at what Apple is
25:51doing in the way that they evolve their
25:53platform because they own the whole
25:55stack they're doing lots of stuff that's
25:58quite hard that you can only do if you
26:00know what Bluetooth chip is in the phone
26:02so you see airdrop you see ibeacon you
26:05see a lot of the local discovery
26:06wireless discovery things you see sing
26:08incidentally also things like using the
26:10m7 motion press such a release battery
26:12life which again is really tough if you
26:13don't make the whole stack right and in
26:16contrast of course you see Google
26:17lifting all their innovation up the
26:19stack into the cloud into Google Play
26:20services into now into maps into plus
26:23and so on and say Apple is moving down
26:26the stack and Google's moving up the
26:27stack both of them of course into their
26:29comfort zone into a place where it's
26:30hard for the other to follow them so you
26:33do have this kind of interesting
26:34contrast as to what's going on in iOS
26:36and what's going on in Android but on
26:39top of it beyond that you know you know
26:41as a third party we've got these two big
26:43platforms there's a lot of common
26:45denominators between them there's some
26:46interesting stuff on some that's not on
26:48the other and vice versa but by and
26:51large in here's a generality there's 1.4
26:541.5 billion people on earth you've got
26:56one of these things today
26:57well better I want to thank you for this
27:01discussion it sounds like one more is
27:03over in and like you said there's all
27:05sorts of things swirling around and
27:07there's another war afoot as we speak so
27:11we will be talking more about that and I
27:12would love to sit down and have you
27:14untangle Amazon for us for example
27:17thank you very much and we will be doing
27:20this on a regular basis great
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