00:00hi everyone welcome to the a 6nc podcast
00:03i'm sonal and today's topic continuing
00:05our DC theme is drones and more broadly
00:08policy and airspace as a platform for
00:11innovation joining us for that
00:12conversation just to really quickly do
00:14the intros we have Eli Gerardo
00:16he directs the technology policy program
00:18at George Mason University's Marcaida
00:19Center and he's here with Samuel Hammond
00:21who's a graduate research fellow in that
00:23program and they've done a lot of
00:25research and policy reports around
00:26drones and then we have Jonathan Downey
00:28who's the founder and CEO of airware
00:30which provides operating systems for
00:31commercial drones so enterprises can
00:33take advantage of aerial data for
00:35business applications and we also have
00:36grant Jordan who's a CEO and co-founder
00:38of sky safe which is a company that
00:39provides security for airspace for
00:41example by taking control of safely
00:43landing rogue drones and by the way
00:44those are about a six in Z company's
00:46full disclosure we have another viren's
00:47investment sky vo which focuses on
00:49onboard intelligence by giving drones
00:51the same visual awareness and agility of
00:52human pilots that they couldn't join us
00:54today so those are the intros and now
00:56let's just get started I think the place
00:58to start off is you know Eli you wrote
01:00an op-ed for me a few years ago where we
01:02talked about airspace as the next
01:03platform for innovation and I thought
01:05that was a really eye-opening concept
01:07for me and I think we need to just break
01:08down with each of those terms mean like
01:10what is airspace why a platform and why
01:13is it the next platform for innovation
01:14well yeah when I wrote that op-ed I
01:16think it must have been in must have
01:18been about three years ago and I was
01:20first starting to get interested in
01:22drones and the thing that I I noticed
01:24immediately was that drones are
01:26completely legal to use for hobbyist
01:28purposes and completely illegal to use
01:30for commercial purposes and it reminded
01:32me of the internet back in the 1980s
01:35right that in the internet in the 1980s
01:37it was this research program that the
01:40government had but there were guidelines
01:42that you you know MIT had an AI lab and
01:45the guidelines for students who are like
01:47you may not use this for any commercial
01:49purpose you know we could get in trouble
01:51with the government it's just illegal
01:53and and and I thought about the people
01:55running this program they didn't mean to
01:58like hold back the Internet they they
01:59were very I'm sure very well intentioned
02:01they wanted this to succeed and they
02:04weren't thinking about how much holding
02:06something back from commercial operation
02:09was likely to affect the success right
02:12if they if they knew where
02:13today they would have allowed commercial
02:16use from the inception right and so so
02:19to me I was I was just thinking about
02:21what would people do with airspace if if
02:24they could use it for commercial
02:26purposes if it wasn't you know we've had
02:28we've had remote-controlled airplanes
02:30for decades people hobbyists use them
02:33you know dirt so in that sense
02:34commercial and consumer drones are
02:36nothing new but you can't you can't do
02:38anything commercially and so what would
02:40what would people do if if you could if
02:43you could use it commercially and
02:44Jonathan I think this is something you
02:45can weigh in on because you are the
02:47founder of a company that is doing
02:50software for commercial drones
02:51yeah happy to and you know I totally
02:53agree three years ago around the time
02:55you wrote that article we looked at the
02:56global landscape for commercial drones
02:58and most everyone at that time was
03:00thinking about consumer and hobbyist
03:02drones and they were thinking about
03:03large military aircraft but this idea of
03:05using drones for commercial applications
03:07was relatively new and when we looked at
03:10the landscape most of the companies who
03:12are doing anything anything meaningful
03:14in the space were international they
03:16were in Australia they were in France
03:17they were in the UK there were only a
03:19few countries where they either said you
03:21know hey we're not gonna regulate this
03:22at all we're going to allow it or they
03:25said we're gonna have a process by which
03:27you can be a commercial operator of
03:28drones in the UK and France were really
03:30leading the way there with hundreds of
03:32commercial operations years ago and many
03:34of the companies in the space said well
03:36we're just gonna ignore the u.s. or if
03:38we are in the u.s. we're gonna start all
03:39of our sales and operations and research
03:41and development outside of the country
03:43and only now with the section 333
03:45exemption process and hopefully soon
03:47with part 107 do we see a lot of those
03:49companies that either started
03:50internationally expanding their
03:52operations to the US or a lot more of
03:54these companies that are in the u.s.
03:55starting to get some commercial traction
03:57what a session it was a regulation that
04:00you just cited so part 107 is the new
04:02proposed small UAS rule and it's it sort
04:05of by us you mean unmanned people just
04:12call them drones just for quick
04:15definitional thing on drones because I
04:17think people actually still confused by
04:18this sometimes I noticed this in the
04:19early days of this community an online
04:21community about drones which is that
04:23drones are different than RC copters in
04:26they can fly waypoints and so they can
04:28follow like a pre-programmed path and
04:31that you can they're not like remote
04:33controlled basically in that contact so
04:35the terms do get like blended and so on
04:37but yeah I would agree that we're
04:40interested in here is some partial or
04:42full autonomy at some point okay you're
04:44gonna you're gonna eventually be able to
04:45just tell it what you want it to do and
04:47it does it okay and so back to section
04:50107 rules back in 2012 Congress actually
04:55with some some foresight actually with a
04:57lot of lobbying from large commercial
04:59industries a lot of lobbying but good
05:01for Congress they passed a provision of
05:03FAA reauthorization bill at the time to
05:06require the FAA to come out with
05:08commercial drone rules by September 30th
05:112015 which was you know several months
05:14ago man win okay man wait they're still
05:17not out but they're coming it'd probably
05:19be sometime next month there will be
05:21some permanent commercial drone rules
05:23and in the meantime as Jonathan said we
05:25have these three 33 exemptions that
05:28basically allows people to sort of
05:30negotiate or apply at the FAA to say I
05:33want to operate commercially for this
05:34purpose and and the FAA might might
05:37allow it or might not and what are some
05:39of the purposes and use cases that you
05:41guys are seeing people put to which I
05:44mean what are the not why would they
05:46want those exemptions basically yes of
05:47the section 333 exemption process was
05:50created last fall and now just you know
05:52nine months later or so there's over
05:544,000 granted exemptions in the US for
05:56commercial use of drones across a
05:58variety of different industries but
06:00we're seeing a lot of exemptions and our
06:01own customers using drones in the
06:04insurance industry in agriculture in
06:08utilities in all types of industrial
06:11inspections oil and gas land management
06:13forestry wildlife conservation you know
06:17that's one of the things that I think is
06:18is so interesting about this industry is
06:21just the the wide variety of
06:22applications and use cases they're
06:24really endless we're hearing about new
06:26ones all of the time and I really think
06:27you know it makes that analogy to the
06:29early internet you know very very real
06:32in that it was designed and developed
06:34you know with several you know really
06:37important use cases in mind but
06:38ultimately when it was kind of
06:39released into the wild and you know not
06:42just people quote-unquote with a thority
06:44to develop it but really all kinds of
06:47people everywhere we're adding
06:48capabilities to software into the
06:50internet is when we really saw this you
06:52know bloom in all the different uses for
06:53it it's totally the case that we don't
06:55even know what the real killer apps for
06:58drones are yet you know I think there's
07:00there's a couple spaces that are kind of
07:01obvious that we've been thinking about
07:03so far of you know delivery and
07:05inspection and all these sorts of things
07:07but there's so much potential there it's
07:09uh it's kind of crazy you know I think
07:12part of a lot of our focus is on
07:15thinking a little bit further forward
07:17about the airspace management aspect you
07:20know I think using commercial drones
07:22early on in the process is pretty easy
07:25when they're still very expensive when
07:27the sorts of companies that can use them
07:29are still very limited you know much
07:31like much like security in that early
07:34you know when the Internet is just a
07:36connection of a bunch of research
07:37centers and government then it's not you
07:40know security is not really that big of
07:41a problem everybody on there has trusted
07:43everybody on there is doing the right
07:44thing but as that as those barriers to
07:47entry start coming down as you know
07:49anybody with 500 bucks can be flying a
07:51drone suddenly it becomes kind of a
07:53different story and suddenly you know
07:55people who don't really know the rules
07:57of the road who aren't really sure what
07:59they're doing or have actual malicious
08:01intent they kind of start coming to the
08:03party as well so you guys are kind of
08:04getting ahead of that I want to chase
08:06that back for a moment and think about
08:07again this we're all really reinforcing
08:08this concept of airspace as a platform
08:10for innovation I think it's actually
08:12kind of shocking to think about what it
08:14means to be able to do things in the sky
08:15and I just want to take it like a moment
08:17to pause on that yeah and I think people
08:20don't realize that like cell phone tower
08:22inspections is like one of the most
08:24dangerous job jobs in America I mean
08:29the number one and that's yes why just
08:34because it's so high up here are 14
08:36deaths in 2013 alone how we're climbing
08:40so and there's not that many people who
08:42climb towers right so this is a fairly
08:44high percentage of the people who do
08:45this for a living they these are high
08:48towers and and people fall or something
08:50goes something goes wrong on that
08:52when that's gotten a lot of publicity
08:53recently there's a lot of other jobs
08:55that are really dangerous as well for
08:57two story steep rooftop inspections of
09:00residential properties whether it's
09:02during the underwriting phase whether
09:03it's during the claims phase can also be
09:05a pretty dangerous job as well and it
09:08and many companies it's kind of an
09:10opt-in job they don't assign it to you
09:12you have to kind of ask to be that
09:14person climbing up on the roof oh really
09:18Wow so there's clearly a lot of
09:21dangerous cases what are somebody I mean
09:23oil and gas what is some of the that's
09:25what I hear about all the time as an
09:26industry that needs that needs drones
09:29like why is that flare stack inspections
09:31for both onshore and offshore
09:33infrastructure and oil and gas also oil
09:36derricks need to be inspected in oil
09:39platforms I need to be inspected for
09:41corrosion and damage on a regular basis
09:44and a lot of these inspections you know
09:46similarly are very dangerous to do or
09:49with the case of flare stacks often the
09:51infrastructure needs to be shut down so
09:53that people can actually climb up on it
09:55but with a drone in an aerial
09:56perspective it gives you a complete
09:58different way to assess the the status
10:00of the infrastructure without having to
10:02shut down critical equipment so we've
10:04kind of outlined some of the more
10:05dangerous jobs and use cases that drones
10:07can help address now let's think about
10:09sort of some of the things that there
10:11are opportunities you wouldn't have had
10:13if it weren't for drones because when we
10:15talk about all those application use
10:17cases insurance agriculture etc in a lot
10:19of ways we're talking about
10:20disintermediating existing alternative
10:23approaches that are expensive or
10:24prohibitive or difficult or unsafe you
10:26know like having to do ladders or oil
10:28and gas inspection things that are just
10:30impossible I think it's especially
10:32interesting on the creative side like
10:34what you can do with photography aerial
10:36Hollywood filmmaking and some of the
10:39really creative aspects of this because
10:41to me the internet wasn't just a
10:43commercial platform it was a creativity
10:44platform and and I'm curious to hear
10:46what you guys are seeing on that front
10:48as well I'll just say first of all that
10:50that qualitative part gets missed in
10:52like FAA cost-benefit analyses you know
10:55so how do you put a price on a Vista
10:58that you haven't seen before exactly
11:00especially when you don't know it's
11:01gonna look like because that's the whole
11:02point of again not to be platitude ish
11:05point of innovation like it's supposed
11:08in terms of what's possible like we can
11:10list all the use cases we want in this
11:11room but we truly have no concept until
11:14we see companies and people start really
11:16inventing things around it well yeah I
11:18was I was actually gonna say on the
11:20creative side one of the things that I
11:21think is some of the most interesting
11:23stuff is on filming just being able to
11:25do shots that used to require
11:27helicopters they used to require you
11:29know tremendous amounts of coordination
11:31and time and money and now it's just
11:33like you know a drone just allows that
11:35so easily so kind of the entry level for
11:37a what used to be a helicopter shot is
11:39like nothing now well and and whether
11:41it's in in Hollywood and taking shots
11:43that were previously from man
11:45helicopters or whether it's the
11:46utilities industry you know getting you
11:49know high-resolution photos of power
11:50lines from what used to be man
11:52helicopters that's that's the starting
11:54point but then it gets really
11:55interesting when you start understanding
11:57what wasn't even possible with man
11:59helicopters and now is becoming possible
12:01with small aircraft including you know
12:04new shots in Hollywood that previously
12:06you know you can't get a helicopter
12:07within 5 and 10 feet of a person and
12:09kind of circle that person but you can
12:11do that with a drone especially as these
12:13things are becoming smaller safer
12:15lighter weight and right or even or even
12:18shots that transition from inside to
12:20outside passing through windows and so
12:22on I know Hollywood expert but imagine
12:24in the past they'd do a shot that pulls
12:26into the window and then there would be
12:28some hidden cut and then reset the shot
12:30from inside now you could presumably
12:32just open the window the corollary for a
12:36lot of these industrial inspections is
12:37the ability to do things like fly
12:39underneath a bridge fly underneath an
12:41oil derrick right the topside of some of
12:43this infrastructure was always
12:45accessible with men helicopters albeit
12:47at a very expensive price tag but now
12:49you can go inside of buildings inside
12:52we're seeing companies do inspections of
12:55the insides of everything from you know
12:58larkey no large oil containers to even
13:02large gas turbines what's interesting to
13:04me about the Hollywood application is
13:06that they actually were some of the
13:07earliest adopters and they adopted it
13:09even before it was legal for them to do
13:12so it was like the uber of drones and
13:18they're just gonna do it and ask for
13:20forgiveness and not permission so that
13:24was one thing I think Hollywood helped
13:26with Hollywood actually helped a lot on
13:29the 333 exemptions right because they
13:31kind of had some of the biggest
13:32immediate incentive to get commercial
13:35use approved and also what I thought was
13:37kind of cool is you know they paved the
13:40way for the use of drones in filming
13:42because they already had all of the
13:44safety procedures and flight manuals and
13:46things that they've been using for
13:47manned helicopter shoots for years so
13:50they literally just took those and
13:51shifted them over and you know called it
13:53this is the manual for shooting with
13:55drones and that's what kind of lets you
13:58get the 333 exemptions for shooting so
14:00easily now so we discuss some of the
14:04innovation arbitrage around drones when
14:07it comes to Canada some of that was also
14:09filmed because there's film industries
14:11in Toronto and Vancouver and they could
14:13make shots and not to worry about asking
14:16for forgiveness so it's interesting you
14:18referenced innovation arbitrage because
14:20the example you shared is basically and
14:22this goes to what Jonathan was saying
14:23earlier about some of the innovation
14:24happening around the world is that when
14:27certain places have more regulatory
14:30flexibility it then draws that that
14:34industry correspondingly and I think the
14:36reason this causes US lawmakers to freak
14:38out a little bit when they hear you know
14:40Amazon saying hey we might start doing
14:42developing drones in Brazil or another
14:45country it actually becomes correlated
14:48to a direct loss of the economic
14:50opportunities that are provided as a
14:52result of this I'm I'm thinking of the
14:53internet example it literally be like
14:55saying you know what we're not gonna let
14:57commercial applications hop on the
14:58so let's develop them in China and India
15:00and Brazil and and South Africa and I'm
15:04just listing the bricks right there but
15:06that is kind of the risk to me at stake
15:08here when we talk about this cuz I think
15:10again people are really under estimating
15:12how much is possible in the air
15:15we're I don't gonna be cheesy but drones
15:17excite the out of me because I know
15:19they really do because it's insane to me
15:22that you know we talked about man like
15:24women humankind wanting to like fly and
15:28now we're talking about a whole new
15:31of excitement to be able to reach into
15:33the air and do things
15:34I mean don't people get this is like
15:37this is a really big deal for God's sake
15:39I'm theory or from Iquitos Institute and
15:42I have a paper forthcoming called global
15:44innovation arbitrage and drones are a
15:46major case study that we look at and why
15:48why'd you guys make drones
15:50well we picked many no drones he picked
15:52genetics so there's these big things
15:56where first of all they're major
15:57emerging tech and they're very much in
16:00the news I picked drones personally
16:03because as a Canadian I was seeing
16:06drones in the industry take off my mail
16:08in my home country and so we actually
16:12focused on Canada and Switzerland and
16:14Swiss that the the Swiss government has
16:17taken a very risk-based approach to
16:20drone regulation they're actually
16:25evaluating the risks and and and moving
16:28forward accordingly as opposed to just
16:29blanket bans or right it's it's flexible
16:33for that reason so there's very few for
16:34example switch from the very few blight
16:36look bright-line restrictions on what
16:38you can or cannot do
16:40they'll have guidelines about for
16:41example going beyond line of sight but
16:45those aren't written in stone such that
16:48if new technology makes that safer that
16:51they can't be revised sort of on the
16:52spot right because the current law if
16:54I'm not mistaken at least locally I know
16:56that you do have to keep drones within
16:58your your visual line of sight and that
17:00sort of seems to defeat the purpose of
17:01the very purpose in certain use cases
17:03like if you're a farmer mapping your
17:05fields is to be able to go beyond the
17:07line of sight so when I restart with
17:10this to the Swiss government on this and
17:12this is another analogy of the early
17:14internet I was really asking them for an
17:18estimate of how much commercial
17:20operation is going on in their country
17:21and the reply I got back was we're not
17:23the United States we don't keep a tab on
17:25every single every single commercial
17:27entity so and sort of like the early
17:31internet you could look up every website
17:33and like a phone book right that's sort
17:36of the mentality that still exists in
17:38the US with drones and in Swiss the
17:40Swiss and the Canadians they're
17:43comfortable not knowing exactly
17:45how many commercial operators there are
17:47right and in fact isn't part of the
17:49problem and I mean in the current state
17:52that that the regulation process can be
17:55prohibitive for I mean the registration
17:57could be really expensive for small
17:59operators or I don't know enough about
18:01it like what's this well there's there's
18:02a consumer registry now and that that
18:05registry it's not expensive it's five
18:07dollars but uh but it could potentially
18:10potentially stop people from from taking
18:14that step there's a I think a lot of
18:17law-breaking going on right now because
18:18the thing there's something like a
18:19million plus consumer drones and only
18:21400,000 have registered so we've created
18:26a new law that has turned us all into a
18:29nation of law breakers but but then the
18:31other thing is this isn't the the
18:33registry is not very well tailored to
18:35the actual risks that we face the you
18:38have to register a drone if it's more
18:40than 250 grams which the FAA helpfully
18:44pounds two sticks of butter is what the
18:48FAA is two sticks of butter or bigger
18:53you have to like half a point five five
18:55pounds so it's if it's if it's that that
19:01big you have to register right and and
19:02one of the things that we're looking at
19:04is how dangerous is it you know to have
19:06something you know a more flexible
19:08standard that goes up to like two
19:09kilograms which is what's used in in a
19:11lot of other countries 2,000 pounds to
19:13kilograms four point four pounds so this
19:16is not this is just the weight of the
19:17drones of the dogs it's not including
19:18any kind of payload like for commercial
19:21it counts a payload okay let's take a
19:24step back for a moment and just talk
19:25about the safety implications of drones
19:26because what's different obviously with
19:29the internet and drones and any airspace
19:32objects is that they are flying
19:35we call them some flying smartphones or
19:37flying computers we think of them that
19:38way but they are flying objects that can
19:40follow the sky and like hit your head
19:41they can get your tree they could kill
19:43your cat I mean I don't mean to be
19:45frivolous about it but these are
19:46realities so let's talk about the safety
19:48implications of drones and what are some
19:51of the concerns that people have and
19:53that you guys who are really involved in
19:55this space have heard well I think
19:58two things that people are worried about
19:59and one is as you say falling out of the
20:02sky hitting people on the head and to me
20:04that is something that we can probably
20:07deal with through the tort system just
20:09in the same way if you hit somebody with
20:11your car like they sue you
20:13maybe the insurance company it's a great
20:15example it's an example though that
20:17requires liability insurance to drive
20:19our public roads that requires
20:21registration of your car so I might be
20:23the odd person out here but in the same
20:25way that you more or less have to have a
20:27MAC address to get on the internet there
20:29there should be some mechanisms by which
20:32we identify the other people who are
20:35flying drones near us or flying drones
20:37yeah I was having dinner about a year
20:39ago actually in Berkeley and a drone
20:41flew right into the side of the
20:43restaurant crashed and then just just
20:46about fell on top of the head of this
20:47girl who was standing there so you know
20:51they're doing dumb things with drones
20:53there are some people doing dumb things
20:54and and I think we can keep the
20:56registration requirements and things
20:58like this very very basic easy and
21:02lightweight but structured in a way
21:04where you know the person has an
21:06incentive if if there's some identifying
21:08marking on that drone that's gonna say
21:10whose drone it is people are gonna be
21:12incentivize and maybe think twice before
21:14they you know fly their drone into the
21:16side of the building or you know above
21:18New York City sort of identity or
21:22location is the idea behind registration
21:25is that yeah if you're flying this drone
21:27especially in a public space and
21:29something goes wrong people will be able
21:32to identify whose drone is it but then
21:34is it really 250 grams that's the right
21:36threshold for that I mean I'm I'm not
21:38worried about 250 gram drone two sticks
21:40of butter volunteers I think that that
21:46250 gram allowance could be called the
21:48paper airplane allowance actually under
21:52federal statute paper airplanes are
21:54aircraft kid-like folds up a paper
22:01airplane in in the classroom in
22:03kindergarten they're like breaking the
22:05well they the FAA is forbearing on
22:10discretion that the registration
22:12standards on paper airplanes Oh Mike so
22:15they FAA would say that they have the
22:18right to regulate that if I mean they
22:21would be embarrassed to say it they do
22:24so grant when you guys you know started
22:26thinking about this the thinking far
22:28ahead about like okay the same way the
22:29internet needed like security and the
22:31drill at airspace will need security in
22:33this way where you can essentially
22:35enforce so to speak the anti drone what
22:39was what were the scenarios that were
22:40coming in your guys's minds that you
22:42came up with this yeah well I mean it's
22:44it's kind of interesting too because
22:45when we first started working on this
22:47and thinking about this you know it was
22:49still pretty early in the space and we
22:51weren't really seeing drone incidents
22:53occurring you know whereas now it's like
22:55literally one a week if not more but I
23:00think to me the big difference is that
23:02there's kind of a gap in airspace
23:05enforcement right like if you're talking
23:06about commercial aviation civil aviation
23:09you know at some point you're
23:12enforcement of airspace restrictions
23:13there's there's kind of two things that
23:14come into play one is just the barrier
23:17to entry to be involved in aviation at
23:19all right you know the amount of
23:21training required the amount of money
23:22required up front with planes and fuel
23:24and all of that but then you know in
23:28addition to that it's a question of at
23:29the end of the day there is an
23:31enforcement mechanism up there you know
23:33you have your plane registered with who
23:35the FAA can come and recite you can take
23:38away your licenses things like that you
23:39know they can track you down
23:41they have transponder requirements and
23:43also you know at some point if you fly
23:45into restricted airspace the National
23:47Guard will literally you know fly an
23:48f-16 up next to you and sit down like
23:51Top Gun sorry but you know the the f-16
23:56in the National Guard doesn't really
23:58help when you have you know just a
24:00quadcopter flying somewhere that's not
24:01really an appropriate level of response
24:03but you know the spread of of drones on
24:08the consumer side really kind of brings
24:10in this level of it kind of changes the
24:12rules in thinking about airspace
24:15security facility security things like
24:16that you know when we talk about you
24:18know how it redefines various ways that
24:21we think about things you know if you're
24:22thinking about perimeter secure
24:24of something like a power plant like a
24:25nuclear power plant or something or a
24:28prison for example there's a lot of
24:29assumptions we make in building a
24:31security perimeter about you know fences
24:33right but now that you have drones you
24:36know an 8-foot fence versus a 20 foot
24:38fence versus a 2 foot fence it's pretty
24:40much equivalent it doesn't really matter
24:42you know you can fly your drone over and
24:43deliver your contraband kind of
24:45regardless of the height of the fence so
24:47just kind of breaks down a lot of our
24:49like traditional security models and so
24:51you're thinking about it more in the
24:52sense of how to because I know there's
24:54geo fencing where you can actually like
24:56fence in a region that a drone is sort
24:58of contained to fly but you're talking
25:00about when you can't control the
25:02perimeter so to speak and yeah the
25:05problem at the end of the day with
25:06something like geo fences right which
25:08obviously totally necessary totally step
25:10in the right direction but you're you're
25:13trusting the device to me to essentially
25:16police itself you know you're saying
25:18drone don't fly here and it's gonna
25:22and that's that's really good for
25:24eliminating kind of the initial
25:25low-hanging fruit of the people that are
25:27gonna follow the rules but you know I
25:29mean a really good case in point is
25:31literally anyone flying a drone right
25:34now within a 30-mile radius of
25:35Washington DC right right now in order
25:38to do that you need to essentially
25:39override those controls because that 30
25:41mile radius is a no drone zone which
25:45also incidentally is kind of confusing
25:46if you are a you know an RC hobbyist
25:49who's been living near DC for decades
25:51flying RC planes but now you know
25:54because it's a quadrotor instead of a
25:56traditional RC plane now it's not okay
25:57to fly there it's kind of a confusing
25:59set of rules right so you're thinking
26:01about the enforcement aspect why would I
26:03think about the other safety issue or is
26:06that the other one I was thinking of was
26:09collisions with planes in the air sure
26:11the manned planes and so this is
26:13something Sam and I have done some
26:14research on and we use as a sort of
26:17parallel phenomena planes hitting birds
26:21so there's actually many orders of
26:23magnitude more birds in in the airspace
26:26then there are drones and so you know
26:29what sort of conclusions can we have and
26:31FA actually has 25 years of data on on
26:35sort of voluntarily report
26:37bird strikes and so we we looked through
26:40that and what'd you guys find
26:41well it's birds are pretty safe we do we
26:49do hit birds all the time sometimes they
26:54cause damage sometimes they do cause
26:56injury or fatalities but in the context
27:00of just the the massive massive number
27:03of birds and then all of the all the
27:06flight manned flights that we have it's
27:07actually a very low rate at which at
27:11which they cause any a threat to humans
27:14and how does this play out with drones
27:15so so what we think is that the evidence
27:19seems to show that that for small you
27:22know one of the things we do is we look
27:24at individual drones versus swarms of
27:27drones because birds they fly in flocks
27:29so we look at the subset of bird strikes
27:32where it's just a single bird and then
27:34we look at the species of the bird and
27:35assign it a weight based on the average
27:37mass of the species and so what we found
27:39is we looked at the two kilogram
27:41threshold since that's what you used in
27:42a number of countries and more than a
27:43stick of butter a stick of butter and
27:46that's what's used in a number of
27:47countries for for the threshold for what
27:49can be unregulated and for two kilogram
27:51drone I think we found that there might
27:53be an inhuman injury once every 187
27:56million years continuous flight a
27:58continuous flight out of the drone and
28:02then if you if you look at commercial
28:05jets it's even it's even smaller I mean
28:07it's it's I think I got the think the
28:09last number that we got was 41 billion
28:11years of continuous operation which is
28:15you know three times the age of the
28:17universe so pretty pretty safe I'm not
28:20very worried about a small like a two
28:22kilogram drone taking out a 737 or
28:25anything like that right well I think
28:27the one of the funniest videos I've seen
28:28on the internet I'm sure you guys have
28:30all seen it is this one that's kind of
28:31goes viral every now and then and
28:33there's always a different version of it
28:34like of an eagle battling a drug versus
28:37drone kangaroo versus drone
28:41kangaroo wins yeah that's great
28:45yeah I mean we've learned about birds
28:46that they're more territorial than a lot
28:49of us knew I guess I guess
28:50scientists knew this but but the rest of
28:52us didn't realize how territorial birds
28:54are well the third than the third
28:56category of safety that I think has come
28:58top of mind for a lot of people as
28:59privacy so one example this weekend that
29:01that was really interesting as the New
29:02York Times decided to fly in use drones
29:06to see the mass graves that were being
29:09unearthed it and they weren't allowed to
29:11look at them and and I thought it was
29:13great I saw I saw that Oh what I think
29:15that someone on Twitter Jenner worth
29:16them or someone said hey and we sent in
29:17drones and on my can it's great and then
29:20I was thinking of the counter example of
29:21that at an individual level where you
29:23might have a star who wants her privacy
29:25and she doesn't need to be spied on by
29:27you know paparazzi and they're gonna use
29:30drones just like anything else and so
29:32what are some of your thoughts on that
29:34youth case and that concern I think this
29:37is a case where you know technology can
29:39really be a significant enabler you know
29:4210 15 years ago you know if you had
29:45asked everyone whether they were willing
29:46to carry around with it's essentially a
29:48GPS tracking device in their pocket
29:49people would have thrown their arms in
29:50the air and said absolutely not
29:53totally with a couple you know
29:54technology additions to your cell phone
29:56and the allowing you to turn the GPS on
29:59and off and delegate which programs have
30:01access to it and when they have access
30:03to it and opted in to allow 911s to your
30:07GPS position you feel safer people are
30:10quite comfortable they actually are
30:11happy to have that on them and now
30:12there's a there's a variety of different
30:15applications around you know enabling
30:17people to run by themselves and alert
30:19someone if their GPS position ever stops
30:22for five minutes parents use it to track
30:24their kids for say you're using a
30:25tractor it's so so all of that I intend
30:28to just be kind of an example of I think
30:29the same thing is playing out here with
30:31with drone use which is to say yes this
30:34is a technology that could be used to
30:36invade people's privacy but with some
30:38basically you know technology controls
30:40on it it can also add a tremendous
30:41amount of value to society without
30:44invading people's privacy and so there
30:45are technology mechanisms too if you
30:48have permission to fly over property a
30:50and property a abuts property B it's
30:53it's relatively easy to make sure
30:55that photos that are taken over property
30:57be are immediately deleted or never
30:59taken at all or photography is only
31:01taken over the property that you have
31:03permission to fly over can do a lot
31:04through technology you can and you can
31:06have you know geo fences that allow for
31:08you to only fly within the bounds of
31:10properties that you have permissions to
31:12fly or section 333 exemptions to pry a
31:14fly over or that or the permission of
31:16the property owner alright and besides
31:18technology there's also existing laws
31:20that cover so much of this like the
31:22peeping tom case like why do we need a
31:23new law when there's already you know
31:27I've heard policymakers say well what if
31:29this like goes up right next to my
31:31bathroom window and looks in and the
31:32answer is there's already a law against
31:35this it's a it's probably a state or
31:37local law and and it would just be
31:40enforced in exactly the same way so
31:42there's doesn't need to be I think a
31:44drone specific pre-emptive should be
31:48technology agnostic should matter
31:49whether it's binoculars used or whether
31:51it's a drone use or a lot idea that it
31:53should be technology agnostic and but in
31:56terms of what how the law should evolves
31:58as long as we're treating drones there's
32:00any other kind of airplane I wouldn't
32:02recommend this but if a drone is
32:03trespassing over your property and you
32:05choose to shoot it down it's like she
32:06treated us she was young an airplane
32:09which is which is like 25 years in jail
32:11or something like that I don't know but
32:13but this is so don't you know don't
32:16shoot down a drone right now don't don't
32:19be the test case right well I guess yeah
32:21as far as test case I mean that's that's
32:23part of the question here is that
32:24regulatory wise we don't really know
32:25where we stand on that piece right you
32:28know so far we we have one piece of case
32:29law of in Kentucky apparently you can
32:31shoot down a drone with a shotgun well
32:33well the FAA has I think has issued as
32:36issued they have preempted that and they
32:38say this is this is a federal offense
32:40and it is it is shooting down an
32:44airplane and it's the same yeah it's
32:46pretty clear both from all of the you
32:48know passed laws that exist and then
32:50right now there's language just to
32:51reinforce it an FAA reauthorization Act
32:54of 2016 just further clarifying the
32:57federal government and the FA s ability
32:59to preempt all state and local laws as
33:01it pertains to the national airspace
33:02great I'm just surprised it wasn't Texas
33:06so what excites you guys I mean we're
33:08talking about some of this
33:09to switch gears from the safety topic
33:10again and go back to like what's new and
33:12exciting so talk to me about what's
33:14interesting to you guys you guys have on
33:15the forefront of watching the trends in
33:17the space I want to hear what's new and
33:19interesting I guess from our perspective
33:20right now in the United States who are
33:22still at this stage where the military
33:24has been using drones are using them
33:26every single day you have millions of
33:28consumers literally who are using drones
33:30you know in many cases every single day
33:32and the major commercial companies have
33:35yet to really step into the fray and
33:37move from testing of the technology
33:40which is where most all of them were at
33:42today to actually using it as the way
33:44they do things for whether it's you know
33:46the insurance industry underwriting
33:48claims catastrophe response or utility
33:50inspections replacing climbing up towers
33:53and manual flights with helicopters with
33:55drones so I think that's the thing
33:57that's most exciting to me and something
33:58that I also expect we're gonna see in
34:00the next 18 months the commercial
34:02companies actually move forward with you
34:05know commercial drones and aerial data
34:06as a way of doing business
34:08I'm super excited about airspace
34:10integration and about you know us
34:12getting to the point where we can
34:14actually have you know large quantities
34:16of commercial drones in the airspace you
34:18know kind of interacting with you know
34:22commercial traffic you know routing
34:24correctly and things like that you know
34:27and it's the kind of thing where it's
34:27it's gonna take a concerted effort by a
34:29lot of different groups coming together
34:31you know you can't have Amazon using
34:33drones plotting their own paths and
34:35Google using their drones and plotting
34:37their own independent paths with no
34:38interchange of information between them
34:40like that you know the nasa UTM program
34:43is working on a lot of that stuff and
34:45i'm super excited about that you know
34:47super excited about transponders on
34:48aircraft you know things being
34:50registered properly you know actually
34:52having accountability and once we get to
34:54that point where we've got integration
34:56where we've got accountability then that
34:57just like opens up the door to all these
34:59different uses and being able to have a
35:01point where a company you know can sit
35:04down and say how can we use drones okay
35:06this is this is a thing that would help
35:08us and then there's just unknown paths
35:10to actually use them correctly you know
35:13right now we just have so much gray area
35:15left in that system but once we get that
35:17cleared out I think it's gonna be great
35:18yeah I'm excited about the entertainment
35:20side so I follow some of the hobbyist
35:23goings-on around first person view drone
35:25racing and these are people who put on
35:27goggles and fly drones around tracks and
35:30I think it's just I think we're only a
35:32year to it before this is broadcast on
35:34ESPN because just it's some of those
35:36exciting things to watch oh my god the
35:40few groups out there that have started
35:41doing drone racing and have really kind
35:43of tried to address how to make watching
35:47that exciting they've done an amazing
35:49job you know like watching drone racing
35:51league and a few of the others like it's
35:54it's gonna be super sweet I also I've
35:56been a little disappointed in drone
35:57racing just because now that I've
35:59started watching these guys that are
36:01doing it now these guys and girls the
36:03they're already so good I've already had
36:07I can't keep up iíve already dashed my
36:10dreams of becoming a professional drone
36:12racer because I just I clearly am not
36:14good enough even for this early stage of
36:16the sport and the other thing going
36:18along with the the drone racing which is
36:19all first-person view I mean I'm at I
36:21mean just put imagine putting on like an
36:24oculus rift headset and just taking a
36:26drone up and looking out of the drones
36:29camera and just being so you in the sky
36:31to like it's like being a ward on Game
36:34of Thrones right it's like yeah you're
36:36get to experience flight as if you were
36:39a bird or you know I guess is if you
36:41were a drone it's it's I think it'll be
36:45really really fun I love that it's like
36:46the eSports version and now we have like
36:48drone spore it's kind of like a
36:49different version of like little sports
36:52participating I'd love to get in on that
36:54but I live too close to the White House
36:57and then I think pushing it forward a
37:01few years why do these all have to be
37:03unmanned systems right why can't you
37:04have an autonomously piloted aircraft
37:06that carries a human right why don't why
37:09don't why shouldn't we get pilot human
37:11pilots out of the cockpits just as we're
37:12getting them out of you know oh wait
37:14behind away from behind the steering
37:15wheel in cars you know you could you
37:17could imagine a world where where robots
37:19are flying us around and and that's
37:22that's much way cheaper and you don't
37:24have to carry a pilot you don't have to
37:26pay a pilot maybe we could have air taxi
37:28systems that that are economical again
37:31maybe I mean just just huge safety
37:36in general aviation something like three
37:38quarters of all of all accidents our
37:41pilot error in in commercial aviation I
37:44think it's about half and so you know
37:46safer what can we do to redesign
37:49airspace that we're working on the FAA
37:52is working on a next-gen airspace system
37:56where there's more machine-to-machine
37:57communication and so you can have better
38:01routing what does that look like when
38:02that gets adopted and how does that
38:04improve especially one of the
38:05interesting quick sidebars about
38:07Jonathan's no notion of identity tumbler
38:09from Cairo education tied to like an
38:11entity what was interesting to me when I
38:13immediately thought of is like just like
38:14IP address in the internet like you
38:16essentially can have all these drone
38:17nodes communicate with each other and
38:19route information as a result of yeah
38:21and some of the plans are actually very
38:22similar to how the internet structured
38:24in terms of public key infrastructure no
38:29need to reinvent all this technology
38:31just because it's being used with drones
38:33right yeah and I would say the last
38:35thing that I'm excited about it's in
38:37aviation generally but it's perhaps
38:39somewhat unrelated is supersonic because
38:41we haven't we've had a complete ban on
38:44supersonic in the United States over
38:46land anyway since 1973 we haven't had a
38:50supersonic jet since the Concorde a
38:52commercial supersonic jet since the
38:54Concorde and what does supersonic do for
38:56us besides make a loud boom you could go
38:59cross-country in two hours right right
39:01so so I could I could I could come from
39:04DC fly-in record a podcast with you and
39:07fly home yeah Hyperloop of the sky I
39:11love it I'm kind of excited by the art
39:14aspects and I think about this in the
39:16context when people think of swarming
39:18I love drone swarms I think it's amazing
39:19to see this orchestration of multiple
39:21drones in the air and people viewed as a
39:23very menacing thing but I think there's
39:25something very artistic and elegant and
39:26beautiful about it but the other thing
39:28that really excites me when I think of
39:29movies like you know when they redid the
39:32first three Star Wars movies which were
39:33just awful for the record as everyone
39:35probably in this room agrees
39:36I love the visual though of the fact
39:40that you had all these aircraft in the
39:43sky and that people could jump from one
39:45aircraft to another and that there's
39:47this and even in this movie The Fifth
39:48Element which is this really lame fun
39:50there's this amazing scene of people
39:53literally doing the same kind of thing
39:54like they're in the air and there's
39:55layers not just like one layer but
39:57there's layers of aircraft in the air
40:00and it just gives a sense of actually
40:03living your life in the clouds you know
40:05where you can actually have like cafes
40:06in the air you can do things in the air
40:07I know that sounds a little crazy but to
40:10me when I think of air space I just
40:11think it's amazing to me that we can now
40:13build up words in ways that we couldn't
40:15before well thank you guys for joining
40:16the a 6nc podcast thank you thanks for
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