00:00hi this is Chris Dixon this is a 16z
00:02podcast i'm here with benedict Evans
00:04let's talk about so blog people talk
00:06about ad blocking lately iOS 9 allows
00:10you to down to download ad blockers or
00:13content blockers which remain lian
00:15blockers I guess the first question I
00:18have is is this there's a lot of talk
00:21about it is it actually a big deal it's
00:23it's an interesting one I think the
00:25several ways you can look at that one is
00:27obviously the majority of time spent
00:29online on a smart phone actually isn't
00:31inside the web browser mm-hm it's inside
00:33Facebook and it's inside other apps
00:35this would also the presume it doesn't
00:36does it it doesn't affect it when you're
00:38in their web view so yes no if you
00:39implement the new faster cool that web
00:42view then it's affected but if you're
00:44actually just looking at stuff actually
00:45in your newsfeed then obviously it's not
00:47if you tap on a link and they implement
00:49the work for you then it's affected a
00:50lot of content is is viewed that way
00:52yeah so there's that kind of kind of
00:54wonky question well how much content is
00:56is affected by then there's how many
00:58people are going to install these things
00:59and right now you know clearly you're
01:01going to have a surge of people who
01:02really care about this stuff it's always
01:04seems to me that there's there's kind of
01:05several different there's a portion of
01:07people who really can really get upset
01:08about tracking and I'm not sure how
01:11broad a percentage of the overall
01:12population that is and then there's
01:14another percentage of people that get
01:15really really upset about the principle
01:17of advertising and again I'm not sure
01:19how many of the people that is the
01:20interesting thing on mobile I think is
01:22that the actual just the amount of code
01:24and the amount of JavaScript and AD tech
01:26stuff that's happening actually slows
01:28down your experience so that I feel like
01:30a real user benefit as a pathetically
01:33fit to installing this stuff I mean I
01:35I've always assumed it's just sort of
01:36the power of defaults here which is if
01:37Apple were to make this the default that
01:40it bought that it stripped out
01:41advertising that would be a big deal if
01:43it requires people to go and download it
01:46download a special thing and it's
01:48actually quite wonky right now you have
01:49to go in or kludgy you have to go in in
01:51the settings and install it yeah it's
01:53like 10 percent of the pop that that
01:57aren't default and those five to ten
01:59percent are probably you know in their
02:00basement screaming at the computer and
02:02like they're the types you don't buy
02:03stuff anyways and I you know I I don't
02:06know so like this is it actually I think
02:08like the hunt of high-water mark here
02:10would be Google Maps on iOS which has
02:13a million active users and Adolphe maybe
02:14400 450 million iPhones and I think that
02:18gives you a pretty good indicator of
02:19Alero divorce yeah here is like an
02:21actual really I mean it's not like how
02:22Google Maps is a vastly better product
02:24and that's only your point is that only
02:25100 million people use only a quarter of
02:29the base of installed it I would say
02:31it's vast I mean that Apple Maps isn't
02:33terrible and most people don't use those
02:34and it's not bad until it tells you to
02:36drive off of a bridge yeah people don't
02:38use maps that much most people don't
02:40actually care that much and but then
02:42there you are even where you need that's
02:43a quarter of the base of how many people
02:45will install this and then how much is
02:46it flow through and there's a kind of a
02:48broader interesting border kind of set
02:50of questions here around well as a
02:51publisher is advertising really
02:54sustainable anyway is this just like a
02:55catalyst for saying you know what screw
02:57this stuff this isn't working very well
02:59how do you get read you know should you
03:02be thinking about micropayments should
03:03be circling back on apps should you be
03:06thinking about other ways to get
03:07distributed and so you know at the same
03:09time as Apple launched yes obviously
03:11they launched their Apple kneez kneez a
03:12creation app and then you have facebook
03:14doing like one argument which I think I
03:19believe is you it's a diversion to worry
03:22about what's happening Safari when the
03:24real ad blocker is called Facebook all
03:26right yeah it's not the actually block
03:28the ads is that the stuff if they want
03:29your stuff to get shown pretty soon
03:31you're gonna have to use instant
03:32articles yeah an instant articles it's
03:34not gonna let you show your ads I mean
03:35it's gonna if they're not native ads and
03:38that's what you know in some ways that's
03:40what you should you know if you're a
03:41publisher you should keep your eye on
03:42that ball not traffic is on Facebook
03:45then face but it's already gonna be
03:46booking there to say you know this other
03:48stuff doesn't matter yeah I mean I mean
03:51some ways Facebook is the new browser
03:52it's the never RSS reader and it's the
03:54new ad blocker all come on to one and
03:56what's happening in Safari with plugins
03:59is a sideshow I think that's right I
04:01mean there's a kind of I wrote a book
04:03place the other week kind of starting
04:05with a chart of my the traffic to my
04:07blog which now gets light 100 to 200 to
04:10300 thousand views a month depending on
04:13what I've learned about but I started in
04:162010 for the first three years I
04:17basically got a hundred views a month or
04:19two hundred years or months and the
04:21point of that is is like yes you can
04:22write stuff you could write stuff in you
04:25could code the stuff in notepad and put
04:26ftp server but actually you're gonna get
04:28you what you want is to get read and if
04:30you want to get ready you've got to be
04:31in some kind of a platform that's giving
04:32your audience and increasingly that
04:34means Facebook or it means medium or it
04:36means links you know I mean some other
04:38intermediate platform that kind of comes
04:41with an implicit ad blocker a revenue
04:43model a filter some other set of stuff
04:45that that comes between you and your
04:47audience which is always like the
04:48problem for news payton your big
04:50publishers looking at Facebook's like
04:51it's a kind of a deal with the devil
04:53issue they can give us traffic but they
04:55comes on their terms so a lot of the ad
04:58blocking discussion has then led people
04:59to to say well what if it's not you know
05:02does this does this mean a dip we should
05:03be think about different advertising
05:05models for you know for example for
05:08newspapers etc all Micra pay yeah and
05:11that discussion micro payments which we
05:12were discussing an issue what triggered
05:14this podcast was a discussion with start
05:16FL Jackson a fictional Twitter character
05:19who apparently dictates has time a tweet
05:22on the two characters no comment um the
05:28yeah so startup would like us to talk
05:31about micro paper so well you you I
05:33think are skeptical micropayments
05:35I'm not skeptical it's just I've kind of
05:37we've seen 15 years of people wishing
05:40that you could do this and the
05:41frictional barriers to having one
05:43platform on every site having people
05:45enter their credit card having some sort
05:47of identity platform that would make it
05:49work it's always been one of those
05:50things that's like if we'd had the
05:52information superhighway instead of the
05:54internet and it been and it had been
05:56built by you know AT&T and people like
05:59that and it was like a system that
06:00happened on your TV then yes you'd have
06:03micro payments but you know in fact we
06:05have this permissionless you know
06:07completely open deep fragmented
06:09environment and it's really hard to make
06:10something like that work I mean when
06:12Apple launched the iPad and things like
06:15newsstand people thought you're going to
06:16be able to do micro payments on the iPad
06:18and you everyone was going to make an
06:19app on the iPad and everyone was going
06:21to read stuff in there and there'd be
06:22micro payments and subscriptions and it
06:24kind of didn't work for a whole bunch of
06:26reasons and I think the question would
06:28be it's like it's easy to say you should
06:31be able to build one cent for each
06:33article or ten cents for each article
06:34but getting that frictionless payment
06:37platform in there and having everybody
06:40just been too hard so far I smell to say
06:43it white b-but so you walk around New
06:45York City and you have these little sort
06:47of small casual payments and you
06:48actually if you read it's always worth
06:50reading like the the original Bitcoin
06:51paper there's a lot of discussion around
06:53Bitcoin but the original paper is
06:54actually lost really well written very
06:56interesting yeah from a technical
06:59respects but also the first paragraph is
07:00very clear about what the point is it's
07:01small casual payments is the point right
07:04so you walk around New York City and I
07:06you know I am late to a meeting and I go
07:08to a street vendor and I buy a cup of
07:09coffee I don't want to have a long term
07:11relationship with that vendor I don't
07:12want to fill out a form it's very useful
07:14to give the guy whatever it cost now two
07:16dollars for a cup of coffee but you know
07:22it's very useful cash is a very useful
07:23way to to to make small casual payments
07:27for example walking around the city
07:28right so the argument is we never you
07:31know it would be nice to have it would
07:32be great to have that on the online and
07:35so I don't give you a practical example
07:37um Spotify and in many ways as a payment
07:39bundler you could imagine if we were to
07:42start over today with the entire music
07:44industry and everything else starting
07:45from scratch how would you architect
07:47music service what you might architect
07:49it where you know I give put $10 into my
07:53browser and it charges me every month
07:55and then my browser tells me in my music
07:58browser or whatever it might be you know
08:00it looks at what music I listen to that
08:02month and then it divvies up my ten
08:04dollars and pays it directly to the
08:06artists and there's no label and there's
08:07no Spotify and it's a relationship
08:09between me and the artist and you know
08:12this one of Clay Shirky argument that no
08:14one will ever adopt micropayments
08:15because of the mental friction that that
08:18that I think is based on it but I think
08:20is a flawed assumption that
08:20micropayments presumes that a human is
08:22deciding every single time you pay
08:24something well they don't look like
08:25micro payer if they look like micro
08:27payments it makes one thing but if you
08:28can package you in some other way well I
08:30think that's I mean I always assumed I
08:32guess I owe for me micro payments always
08:34meant the infrastructure supported small
08:37casual payments so two entities could
08:39make a transaction of a small amount
08:42without incurring transaction fees and
08:44make it prohibitive and without having
08:46to have an ongoing relationship the way
08:47you currently do with a credit card and
08:48without having a twenty percent charge
08:49back rate he didn't like all these other
08:51and like the charge denials and so you
08:54sort of internet cache yeah right you
08:55could make small cash payments there's
08:57no reason that can't be software
08:58assisted you can't have you know BOTS
09:01and other things assisting how you divvy
09:03out those micro payments there's no
09:04reason a human has to be saying let me
09:06decide who to give ten cents to and ten
09:07cents to those are two that's just that
09:09would just be an old-fashioned
09:10architecture to me to have a human
09:11making those decisions so to me the
09:14argument that sort of a human has two
09:15will never want to you know the mental
09:17cost of making the decision that's just
09:18a very old-fashioned assumption that
09:20there's a human deciding how
09:22everything's done architectural II it
09:24seems to me that having the ability to
09:27have sort of something the equivalent of
09:28cash low transaction costs no ability to
09:31have fraud not having to have an ongoing
09:35relationship between the two entities
09:37would be a very useful architectural
09:40thing Bitcoin is one very promising ya
09:44example of that there could be others
09:46the the existing credit card system
09:49seems extremely flawed PayPal is
09:51extremely flip a pal deals with many
09:53issues they simply block about half the
09:56world from transacting right I mean
09:57there's a on eBay twenty percent of all
09:59internet international transactions are
10:01blocked because the way they deal with
10:03the fact that their system is not built
10:05for the Internet is they tune the
10:06algorithms to just block almost
10:08everything that looks remotely
10:09suspicious right it's it's it's if you
10:12if you submitted PayPal to your cs101
10:15you know class as your as your ideal
10:19payment system you well no I mean the
10:24PayPal is a great you know obvious more
10:26people but the point is it was it was an
10:28extension of the credit card system
10:30which was built for a different era it
10:31was not built for this
10:32it was simply wasn't built these things
10:34were not built for the kind of the way
10:35the modern internet works I would yeah I
10:37mean I think I observation like mark
10:40nice to point out that is C what is it
10:43for three for two yeah well this is yeah
10:46there's also no identity this is the
10:49error code for four is no there's no web
10:51page is also an error code for two built
10:53in HTTP spec which is payment required
10:55and and I believe so like I believe that
10:59we go back to rear one in 1993 and you
11:02had different possible futures of the
11:04Internet right and and one possible
11:05future you would built identity
11:07you'd bill payments into it and to me
11:09that would have been a I love the
11:11internet and it's awesome and thanks to
11:13mark and all these other great people
11:14who did it and I'm not complaining and
11:16looking a gift horse in the mouth that
11:17said rewinding it would have been really
11:19nice to have built identity and payments
11:20in the first place in my first birth job
11:23like I think in my twin 90 1999 I joined
11:27an investment bank and I think in my
11:29first week I was sent along to sit at
11:32the back of the room in the IPO drafting
11:33session for a company called twin tech
11:35which makes Chip and PIN payment tunnels
11:39and they were one of the companies
11:40behind something called SCT which and
11:44the idea of SCT was it was basically in
11:46a square system for your credit card see
11:48your browser had your credit card but
11:50the e-commerce side never got your
11:51credit card it was kind of passed so he
11:52is I'd like to kind of take a nice
11:53actually kind of our Apple pay works and
11:58of course by the way a far better system
12:00you don't pan like the credit courses I
12:02mean hand the password you literally
12:05fail out of class have you submitted
12:07that in the project and this was like
12:11the idea for how you were gonna get
12:13people to comfortable putting their
12:14credit cards in and it turned out that
12:15the answer was you just put your credit
12:17card in and their credit card companies
12:19eat the food costs and PayPal blocks off
12:21the transactions and so on see just deal
12:24but use your point if you if you could
12:26there's always this sort of I mean it's
12:29your that you say about going back to
12:311992 we kind of look at what happened
12:33and we presume it's inevitable and we
12:34look at all the micro payment terms that
12:36failed and presume well that's just cuz
12:37micro payments aren't going to work just
12:38like we know we look at the fairly of
12:40the portals in America and think well
12:42Paul's didn't work you look at China
12:43portals did work and a lot of the things
12:46that look inevitable as failures it's
12:47just that's just kind of how it turned
12:48out and the technology didn't quite work
12:51and it's certainly possible that we
12:53could have you know whether it's Picon
12:55or something else a micro payment system
12:56of some kind or subscription system of
12:58some kind that did work the challenge is
13:00always like well how do you get everyone
13:02to adopt it's a massive massive it's the
13:06mother of all chicken problems right
13:08it's like it's the big chicken in excess
13:10of the biggest one of all and the thing
13:11that comes in parallel is you have
13:13facebook or BuzzFeed or medium creating
13:17solving it from the side so Facebook has
13:20both the distribution and
13:21the business model for third parties
13:23while the business model for themself
13:25the distribution for third parties and
13:27BuzzFeed has the distribution and the
13:29business model for themselves and medium
13:30right now has distribution for third
13:32parties but no revenue model although
13:33presumably that will come though it's
13:36interesting just to look at you know how
13:37BuzzFeed but in particular comes at this
13:39game about to do it to advertising and
13:41ad blocking in that what they haven't
13:43done is kind of slap a banner ad as
13:47invented by Wired in about 1996 or 1997
13:50and put 10 Meg of JavaScript on the back
13:53of it to try and work out who the hell
13:54you are which is my point about identity
13:57if the reason the advertising is 10 Meg
13:59of JavaScript is cuz they don't know who
14:00you are and they won't have some vague
14:02sense of who the hell you are to show
14:03you so they know what kind of had to
14:04show you where is if your BuzzFeed or
14:06your faith if your Facebook you have
14:08that identity because it's in the
14:09Facebook profile if your BuzzFeed you
14:10build native advertising evil
14:12advertising well in the native
14:13advertising inherently doesn't it
14:15Dandy's built in by who shares it
14:17exactly right so so the person who likes
14:19cats shares with another person who
14:20likes cats and that and that targeting
14:22quote-unquote is happening by humans not
14:24by yeah so you're not building 10 mega
14:26kind of crappy javascript to try and
14:29guess as to who this person is it's
14:30actually inherent in the product and
14:33that's actually also much better revenue
14:34model and certain maybe that you know
14:36you come at this from that other angle
14:38which is you build it as a single site
14:40you solve it as medium you solve it as
14:42Facebook you solve you self-identity is
14:44Facebook rather than open ID well to
14:46that point like you know one way to look
14:47at this is you go to the New York Times
14:49and it's you know New York Times is a
14:52you know it's it's a beautifully you
14:54know from a journalism perspective it's
14:55it's an amazing product right it's great
14:57writing they spend tons of money on
14:58research and so you're looking at you
15:00know if you go to the just a desktop web
15:02and you go to the New York Times you're
15:03looking at the the page of the text and
15:06you've got an A+ product and then you
15:09look around the text and you've got
15:11literally like I have screenshot I
15:13always screenshot whenever I see these
15:14kinds of ads it's like the Tahiti diet
15:16or teeth whitening right it's the lowest
15:19of the low crappy ads like sitting
15:21around on these banners which I
15:23guarantee you on mobile if there are any
15:25click sometimes as I bet you 95% of them
15:28are fat thumb fat finger accidental
15:31clicks like nobody is willing like the
15:33odds of somebody reading an article
15:34about you know whatever something you
15:37know foreign policy in the New York
15:38Times and then clicking on a Tahiti diet
15:40I'm sorry that is not that it's an if
15:43it's happening is actually writes a lot
15:45Yahoo it's like you know the hundreds of
15:46millions of people must be clicking on
15:47them but you've never met anyone who
15:49does it but they don't I don't know so I
15:51I would just say this that you have if
15:54you just look at it through the lens of
15:55product development you've got on the
15:57one hand at a great product you know the
15:59economy on the economy so they don't do
16:01it that well they'd have been ours I
16:02think they have at whatever you have the
16:05journal the FT The Economist the New
16:07York Times all of these first-rate
16:08journalistic institutions with top rate
16:11journalistic products bundled with very
16:15third-rate monetization products and
16:18then people say oh my gosh Mont digital
16:21monetization doesn't work we're trading
16:23analog dollars for digital pennies now
16:25there's two ways to look at it one is
16:26there something magical about a computer
16:28screen that makes it less monetizable
16:29the other is perhaps you've aligned
16:33yourself with a business model that is
16:35just a very low quality product and that
16:37would be by the way the BuzzFeed
16:38perspective and like and that people
16:40have this I think this very they've
16:42misunderstand what native advertising
16:44your ads that people actually like right
16:46this is the goal of native advertising
16:48done right its ads like it's sort of
16:50like Super Bowl ads or well the TV
16:52advertising industry is always known
16:53this of course it is yeah you make ads
16:56people like and in yeah and in the
16:58social web people will share them as
17:00opposed to you know thinking of what
17:02what the publishing industry has been I
17:04think kind of mislead or down the wrong
17:06path of thinking of it is like you have
17:07the hamburger and you have the spinach
17:09and you have to take the spinach with
17:11the hamburger or whatever kind of
17:13there's an interesting thing implicit
17:15all this is is what happened with
17:16paywalls you know if as soon as newt
17:18with the newspapers it went to paywalls
17:19and particularly like hard paywall zone
17:21the times as opposed to the new york
17:23times where the times you have to pay
17:24you that's it you can't read anything
17:27yeah the time so named after the point
17:35is that when these newspapers did that
17:37the page the the site experience got way
17:41way better because all the crap
17:42advertising disappeared yeah all the
17:44link bait headlines disappeared all the
17:46tabouleh and the click
17:48500 other stuff disappears it's white
17:50space on the site because all of a
17:51sudden they didn't have to do that
17:52anymore and I feels like you could kind
17:54of do like a 2 by 2 matrix you by 2
17:57matrix of you know traffic versus value
17:59or whatever new instance would be and
18:01like in one corner you would have the
18:03Guardian which is trying for massive
18:05global scale with no mallet ization were
18:07speaking of and in the other corner you
18:09would have the Daily Mail which is got
18:11the same traffic a tent at the cost base
18:13and attend to the content quality and
18:16the relative Sherman rail of shame and
18:17everything else and in another corner
18:19you would have like the times at the
18:21Financial Times The Economist where it's
18:23like pay or go away in some sense and
18:27the New York Times to some extent as
18:28well as you kind of got to pay them if
18:29you want to read the New York Times
18:30every day and then in the other corner
18:32maybe you have BuzzFeed which is no no
18:35let's just actually take instead of
18:38having a vast audience and just throwing
18:40we don't know what I do and hoping that
18:42will make it up let's actually think
18:43natively about what money revenue on the
18:47free internet looks like mm-hm
18:49you see what I mean you've got there's
18:51kind of these different axes of quality
18:53versus I mean for me at least the big
18:57the great monetization epiphany on the
19:00internet was Google right like the first
19:02time you saw it just the assumption had
19:04always been that you had to you know you
19:06had that you had the carrot and stick
19:08the carrot was the one's the product and
19:10the stick was a monetization well Google
19:12said no I mean the ads are actually
19:14quite useful like it turns out that in
19:16many cases those are those are as
19:18relevant or more relevant than the
19:19organic listings well it's the best
19:21story is you know the I can't remember
19:23who it was that they were trying to
19:24unlicensed product tube in the very
19:27early days and he said well I don't want
19:29to use the search engine to be too good
19:32they were trying to sell the company
19:39remember at the time it was all around
19:41stickiness yes the thing so you had to
19:43keep idols search was well known to be a
19:45bad business and portals was a good
19:47business so you had to search was a way
19:49to get them into your portal where you
19:51then show like celebrity gossip and then
19:53banner ads and that's why Yahoo actually
19:56out sourced their search to
19:59Inktomi and others so that's a good
20:03cautionary tale well so it struck me
20:06when you talk about finding your models
20:07it's like in a sense it's not that it's
20:09easy for BuzzFeed but Lena Busby you can
20:11do that if and if you're a top ten site
20:12you can think about doing that if you're
20:13the next 10,000 sites we have once upon
20:16a time you'd say well we're going to
20:18have to sell our banner ads and that was
20:19a nightmare and then you have ad
20:20networks which kind of act as a natural
20:22intermediary so it's all I can I throw
20:24an ad network for native advertising in
20:25some sense you know how do you reach a
20:27point where everyone can be doing good
20:28advertising as opposed to only the
20:30people you've got a big team of geniuses
20:32to work it out it's a good question I
20:35think it's it's a it's a TBD we don't
20:40know the answer I think you know it's
20:43one way to look at BuzzFeed is is every
20:46media company has a point at which the
20:50advertising and the content interact the
20:54the way that it worked
20:56Soraa Klee was they interacted in in the
20:59news world let's say is they interacted
21:01through physical adjacency right in
21:03other words you put the the the article
21:05on the page and you put the ad next to
21:07it and that happened on paper and it
21:08happened on and it happened on on the TV
21:11and TV adapt its temporal adjacency
21:14right it's like you have this slice in
21:16that slice the idea with BuzzFeed is you
21:18have that the adjacency actually comes
21:21in the layer of the creation and the
21:22data so you have lots of data and
21:24learning and that that is the sort of
21:26the center of the system and that
21:28informs both the publishing side and the
21:31advertising side and that's where the
21:33quote bundling happens it doesn't happen
21:34in the the contact the the articles
21:38appearing next to ads and because and
21:40you can't because the assumption from
21:42the start was that the internet will
21:43unbundle those things they will unbundle
21:45the ads from the BuzzFeed if you go to
21:48BuzzFeed home no no it's not that's
21:50that's a that's a very small portion of
21:53the experience and not really how it
21:54works you understand it when you go to
21:56it through a social network and you see
21:57because basically ads I've now become
21:59unbundled from like the only place that
22:01ads are being bundled with with content
22:03is in the platforms right it's in
22:05Facebook it's in Twitter and it's in
22:07native ads and they will be the new ad
22:09networks in many ways
22:10their ad networks like this ad tech
22:12industry unfortunately I you know I
22:14think will mostly go away banner ads
22:18etcetera will be Google it will be
22:19things in streams they will Facebook
22:22well Facebook knows who the person is so
22:24they let the new search all that search
22:27industry before Google you're saying you
22:29know people are mistakenly outsourcing
22:30it will come back and be well and I'm
22:32kind of like a more general sense that
22:34there are all these people doing not
22:35very good search and then Google came
22:36along with a completely different way of
22:37doing search I I will be like a similar
22:41kind of a nuclear bomb that hits the on
22:42tech industry I think it's happening now
22:45isn't it I believe I mean and also if
22:47you just look at the public ad tech
22:49companies stock prices and they just and
22:51of traffic they say it's Boltzmann
22:52forward and and so I think it's
22:54happening now you know for me at least
22:56that said I think the publishing
22:57industry once it's going through this
23:00this just kind of a turmoil now will end
23:04up being stronger than ever because
23:06you've got what is the number now three
23:08billion people with smartphone your an
23:10access going to an awfully small things
23:12getting to probably full maybe a four if
23:14I mean like the scale so you know even
23:16if you assume the worst case that you
23:17that you reduce monetization by what a
23:20factor of ten or even a hundred the
23:23scale of reach here will go up by at
23:25least that much you know if you consider
23:27in the past a regional newspaper or
23:29something can now reach soon what the
23:31entire probably what six billion people
23:32by 2020 where I don't what you
23:34projecting five billion adults on us
23:37probably that's probably two two and a
23:38half billion smartphones now that will
23:40go up to four billion but you know a lot
23:41of those are farmers in rural Africa and
23:44it's a multiplier effect right it's it's
23:45not only is it is it number people it's
23:48the amount of time spent the time spent
23:50used to be at best right like you would
23:52like someone who a very engaged news
23:54reader might spend 45 minutes in the
23:55morning reading the news and that was it
23:57now it's a constant thing throughout the
23:59day it's deeply integrate if you look at
24:00what's happening with Facebook I mean
24:01you know they it's now news not only is
24:05something you you consume it's the thing
24:07you talk about with your friend you know
24:08it's part of your social experience on
24:10the web right it's like that's a lot of
24:12what BuzzFeed's insights are as well is
24:13that they're not just things to read
24:15passively they're things to then share
24:17and discuss and so the amount of time
24:19spent on on news and on media and
24:23the number of people with access to it
24:24is you know I think like if you add up
24:27sort of you multiply those two times
24:29each other it's like a thousand X it's
24:31very very promising and I think just
24:36this just we just need to figure out in
24:38this transition period what the best
24:40models are and there will be some shake
24:41out but the good journalists and writers
24:45and content media creators will do very
24:49well in the new world yep okay thanks
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