00:00hi everyone welcome to the Asics insi
00:01podcast today we have three special
00:03guests Roman Mars of 99% invisible an
00:07extremely popular podcast about
00:09architecture and design and we also have
00:11Ryan Hoover and erekt Orenburg of
00:14product 10th Roman Ryan Eric welcome to
00:18the a 16 z podcast thanks for having me
00:20hey how's it going thanks for having us
00:22we're gonna do a podcast about podcasts
00:25which is a little bit meta roman you
00:28were at public radio here in the Bay
00:31Area and they made this shift and did
00:34the shift kind of was it conscious that
00:36it happened to you or did you happen to
00:38it I would say mostly it happened to me
00:4299% invisible started as a little four
00:45and a half minute drop in that klw in
00:48San Francisco would put in their morning
00:50edition and I did about four or five
00:53episodes I had a tumblr page which just
00:56had a you know like what you could
00:58stream them and listen to them and I
01:01would send them to my friends and say
01:02you should listen to my new little show
01:04it's four minutes long you'll like it
01:05and they were like I'm like I'll listen
01:07here tumblr and they're like you
01:09should put it as a podcast and so I did
01:12you know I did it that way is it just a
01:14distribution tool and it really found an
01:18audience in the design and architecture
01:20world pretty quickly I mean I knew that
01:22it could occupy that space well because
01:24no one was doing the types of stories I
01:26liked you know I had this notion I guess
01:29that it would be out in the world larger
01:31than just being on klw and this was you
01:34know with I just celebrated our fifth
01:36anniversary so this was before the
01:39recent sort of groundswell of support
01:41for podcasting Barack Obama just went on
01:44Marc Maron's podcast the other month he
01:46went to his garage and recorded a
01:48podcast that's amazing I mean that's a
01:50really that is a big deal there's a few
01:52these these benchmarks like with you
01:54know with cereal and with Marc Maron I
01:56mean I think they do represent something
01:58really big you know people know podcasts
02:02more than they ever have before but
02:04there really has been a steady growth
02:06for the about 10 years like it's been
02:08slowly climbing I think it just hit that
02:11weird threshold effect where enough
02:13people know it that it feels like
02:14everyone knows it is it enough people
02:17know it in combination with enough
02:19people have the technology to do it and
02:22also to listen to it yeah I think it's I
02:25think it's all those things I think
02:26technology is a huge factor the major
02:28milestones technologically as I would
02:29place them the sort of inflection points
02:31are iTunes ads podcast support that
02:34happened in 2005 that was a big deal at
02:37first there were all these sort of open
02:39source written by fans little
02:41applications to make podcasts happen and
02:43and when iTunes jumped in it was a big
02:45deal and it wasn't that was in 2005 then
02:47the iPhone which made it so that you had
02:50these things all the time they weren't
02:51something you synced to your iPod it was
02:54something that was like always on your
02:56phone and I think the recent one is I
02:59just got a new ish car and for the first
03:02time ever I have like bluetooth syncing
03:04to my car now when I walk into my car
03:07and turn it on it automatically starts
03:09playing my phone right I devoted my life
03:11to public radio I'm you know like I
03:13listen to public radio all the time
03:14I barely turn on the radio anymore I
03:16know it's crazy I had a similar
03:18experience where I had a Volvo with
03:20300,000 miles on and I recently got a
03:22new car I have just been like I had been
03:25hiding in a basement for the last 20
03:27years and you know and the world has
03:29opened up that's crazy
03:31and then also you know that I think
03:32there's a notion that and this is sort
03:34of a side thing which is I think people
03:37are used to curating their lives a
03:38little bit more with with DVR and
03:40Netflix they're used to like programming
03:42their own entertainment and podcasting
03:44doesn't seem like that big of a deal
03:46anymore like technologically a little
03:48too onerous in my opinion but the mental
03:51leap to like okay I'm gonna select my
03:53shows and download them and so that is
03:56something that is part of your normal
03:58entertainment life now and more people
04:01are starting to accept that and so I
04:02think that's I think that's one of the
04:04factors in there people are are more
04:06excited and willing and now they have
04:09access to choose what they want to
04:11listen to or watch I mean back when you
04:13know network TV was around in the very
04:15very early days there were a couple
04:16channels that you had access to and then
04:18as I was growing up I had still limited
04:20channels to watch on my TV but now it's
04:23it's on-demand it's YouTube it's
04:24it's the video and the TV space and even
04:27the movie space as well is there's an
04:29explosion of creation happening there
04:31and the sameness is absolutely true for
04:32podcasts there's a little conflation
04:34happening here though because there's
04:36curation and then there's sort of
04:37unbundling how the channels of podcasts
04:41are presented because the problem that I
04:42have is I am more interested in topics
04:47so I mean actually Romans in all honesty
04:49yours is the exception I love your show
04:51but I want to listen today to something
04:54like cereal the next day I want to
04:55listen to something more fun it's just
04:58sort of changing it around all the time
04:59and so that problem hasn't been solved
05:02like try to find that stuff because I
05:03don't think people are really custom
05:04curating these perfect lists for
05:07themselves I think only tech early
05:08adopters are doing that sort of thing
05:09for some people podcasts and right now
05:12discovery a podcast for this use case or
05:14this type of person isn't isn't great
05:16but for some people it's kind of like a
05:18blog post or a news article podcast
05:20episodes themselves are consumed in that
05:23way and then over time you might build
05:25an affiliation or a love of 99%
05:28invisible or some other show and then
05:29subscribe but for others kind of
05:31consuming some sort of topic whatever
05:34mood they're in that's the way that they
05:35want to consume podcasts I believe at
05:37least and so no you haven't you have a
05:39Twitter list of accounts that surfaced
05:41different podcast shows if I'm not
05:43mistaken for this very reason because
05:45that's how I started discovering them
05:46because I can't find any place to do it
05:47otherwise I would never pick a show
05:50about manhole covers but you doing that
05:52yes I'm gonna click and listen because I
05:54know your track record and how you
05:56approach a topic and think about it but
05:58there is still this problem where
05:59there's this long tail it reminds me the
06:01early days of the Internet where there's
06:03so much content and you just have no
06:06idea how to find the good stuff if
06:10you're looking for something
06:11unestablished especially I'm so glad
06:13that you think it resonates with you
06:15from episode to episode because I do a
06:16show about boring things like my purpose
06:19I am scared of the world in which you
06:22read the description and go this is
06:25gonna be about manhole covers you know
06:26and judge me on that rather than on the
06:29track record where I'm like what but I'm
06:32gonna make it interesting like trust me
06:34on this you know and so I think that
06:36sure like mine does a little worse
06:38in the world where you're like looking
06:40for that celebrity interview or looking
06:42for that you know like there's a reason
06:43why my show is a is a big podcast but
06:46you know isn't a big like TV show the
06:50atomic unit for me is the show like the
06:53program and I listen to a ton of
06:55podcasts I can tell you as somebody who
06:57does a show the things that work so far
07:01are basically being on other podcasts
07:05the thing that introduced me to new
07:06audience radio lab featured my show
07:09about three and a half years ago and it
07:11was a huge thing for me so that's the
07:13main discovery tool is other podcasts
07:15which is why these networks and stuff
07:17are formed how do you explain that is it
07:20just this sort of DVR world I mean that
07:23everything is on demand and or is the
07:26audience that split I think it's pretty
07:30split it might cross over more as the
07:33awareness of podcasts even gets its
07:35greater I mean still it's like 80% of
07:37the world still doesn't know what the
07:38hell this is it still has some lot of
07:41room to grow podcast listeners are a
07:43die-hard group and they're really
07:45searching for good stuff and they're
07:48motivated to find it it's funny you
07:50mentioned that because we were talking
07:52amongst ourselves of where's the best
07:53way to promote our podcast discovery
07:55platform on podcasts you should be
07:58buying ads right now a whole new level
08:02yeah this is a podcast about podcast
08:04promoting podcast on podcast we were
08:06talking to Matt Lieber co-founder of
08:09gimlet who's also done a ton to you know
08:11further popularized podcast and he would
08:13say something along the lines of that
08:15the top 50 podcasts have something like
08:1890 percent of the traffic of the share
08:20and then you know more and more people
08:21creating podcasts every day and there's
08:24they're actually creating a show about
08:26you know what are the gems that are not
08:28on the top 50 and that's what we're
08:29trying to do too is surface the the ones
08:31that people don't find so easily that's
08:33great because I feel like there's a lot
08:37of appetite for it for a long time and I
08:39don't know if this is still the case but
08:40it was true at least a year ago the most
08:43popular page on my website was the page
08:47where I recommend other podcasts when
08:51and I know I listen to regularly like a
08:53good 50 podcasts when you get into it
08:55you you burn through them and you sort
08:57of feel like you start to have that same
08:59thing where it's like I kind of will
09:00listen to this type of thing
09:01you know it's not necessarily your
09:02favorite or anything but it's just that
09:04you know like I need something light and
09:06more conversational or I need something
09:08more produced and in you know narrative
09:10so I think people are still really
09:12searching I still think that the the
09:14ground is pretty soft for creators to
09:16make new things that blow people away
09:18for me personally I listen to podcasts
09:20have a dozen that I've been listening to
09:22for years now and you know I listen to
09:26it and sometimes it comes up in
09:27conversation with friends in real life
09:28but there's no place online really to
09:31discuss these types of things do you see
09:33any communities for podcasts or or where
09:35do people go to geeked out about
09:37personally I don't know I mean they're a
09:39little bit like they sometimes talk in
09:41my comments which I don't read actually
09:44just for my own sanity like I can't
09:46create a thing without having that stuff
09:49in my head and so I shut it out somebody
09:52else monitors it you know I think much
09:54to the chagrin of me it was of cereal
09:56like cereal did not welcome this but you
09:59know that show I think was propelled
10:02because of online communities on reddit
10:05trying to solve the murder and they did
10:08not embrace this because they cuz I made
10:10this up makes them super uncomfortable
10:11but it was a huge factor I'm actually
10:14curious about live-streaming
10:16meerkat periscope other apps and how you
10:19know there are some podcasters out there
10:21that use those and actually record their
10:23podcasts with the community kind of
10:24participating and is that is that the
10:27future of podcasting or is that a big
10:29part of podcasting in the future I think
10:31it could be it's not a part of my future
10:34in podcasting mainly because you know I
10:36do a show that takes me weeks to create
10:39so I can't do it live with people around
10:41but a because it would suck but it just
10:45it's not that type of beast but the
10:47intimacy thing is huge to me I mean
10:50everything about the tone of my show is
10:52about intimacy it's about that kind of
10:55manipulation mainly because of that
10:56reason of of the talking about boring
10:59stuff because I have to form a
11:02relationship to convince you
11:04that this stuff is worth listening to
11:05that I have to form that friendship and
11:07then also you know I'm
11:09listener-supported not 100% because I
11:12have ads and stuff now too
11:13but in the beginning the reason why the
11:16show took off in a lot of ways I mean my
11:18biggest PR stunt basically which didn't
11:21I didn't mean it to be a PR stunt but it
11:22just ended up that way was I did this
11:24Kickstarter campaign that really got
11:26traction I mean really exploded and it
11:28became the biggest journalism project in
11:30kickstarter history at the time I think
11:32that that's directly related to the
11:34intimate nature of the audience and host
11:36relationship I think there was something
11:38about that that as it was growing it was
11:39like you're our guy you know like we
11:42support you and there was something
11:43about the personality connection and
11:45then because of that there my boss and I
11:49have a close relationship with them
11:50because I answer to them public radio
11:54really prides itself on having a really
11:56close connection I mean public radio
11:57listeners on average listen to like four
12:00or five hours of public radio a day I
12:03mean it's absurd actually you like the
12:05average listening of a radio is like tis
12:07like 10 minutes you know you know
12:09something we've always sort of counted
12:11I think podcasting just eclipses the
12:15public radio connection I mean I would
12:16rather have one podcast listener than
12:1910,000 radio listeners it's that
12:21important you mentioned some
12:23manipulations that you sort of make when
12:26you're creating that connection with the
12:27with the audience and the podcast thing
12:29so you'd bench in voice like do you
12:31actually actively modulate your voice a
12:33certain way what kind of manipulation is
12:35referring to the performance like the
12:37way I'm talking now I can't talk about
12:39this in real life because I'm projecting
12:40about six inches in from my face you
12:42would never hear me in real life like
12:44this and when we met a couple of weeks
12:46ago I was expecting your voice to be
12:47like that and believe me if it had been
12:49I would have been a little freaked out
12:52because I'm barely I'm barely projecting
12:54if I'm in firm background you have to
12:57talk bigger and if I'm you know if I'm
12:59in a party where there's a bunch of
13:00people you know I can't convey like this
13:02okay so there's an aspect of it that's
13:03of performance and that's totally fine I
13:05mean it's a something that's sort of an
13:06anthem on to public radio often cuz it's
13:08about you sound the way you're supposed
13:11to sound and in a way like there's a
13:12real premium placed on that which I
13:14think isn't nonsense I think being a
13:16performer and being a good host
13:18like it's part of your job I think it's
13:19a good part of your job you know you
13:21should be better than you are in real
13:22life on the air you know I used music in
13:26such a way to to sort of keep you
13:28there's like the blinky blinky we call
13:31it thought core music to sort of we're
13:33talking about something and you're
13:34supposed to stay interested there's
13:36there's a ways that we use editing to
13:39keep the ear interested rather than have
13:41one person talk we cut back and forth a
13:44lot it's a sort of to make you make sure
13:46you're paying attention those changes we
13:49reiterate things in certain ways to make
13:51you aware of it I guarantee you are
13:54doing something else while you were
13:56listening to me at the same time you are
13:57definitely watching dishes you are
13:59driving you are doing something else so
14:02I have to write it in such a way so that
14:04it works for that type of listener and
14:06works for the careful listener as well
14:08yeah my question is the difference
14:11between a podcast versus a show or a
14:14radio piece and what you just described
14:17sounds to me like a lot of what those
14:19elements of a podcast are coming from
14:22the magazine world for example when
14:23blogs blogging came out there was some
14:25sort of disdain with online and there
14:27was a distinction between print and
14:29online and I think if you're smart that
14:32distinction no longer exists but in the
14:35podcast world it sounds to me like at
14:38least from what I hear from other people
14:39it still does will it always because of
14:43this what you described and how you
14:44built 99% invisible do you think I know
14:47I think it exists a little less now than
14:50it used to so I think for a while I only
14:51know this from my personal experience so
14:53when people ask me what I do I have a
14:55hard time talking about it in person I
14:57basically engineered my life of talking
14:59to people and talking on the radio
15:01because I have a hard time talking to
15:02people in real life instead and so I'll
15:06say you know I'm a journalist or I'm a
15:08public radio producer I still say that
15:10in the past year or so I've been saying
15:14and that's something about five years
15:16ago I hope that would have killed me to
15:18say I'll out there's something about it
15:20that I think is already changing and I
15:23think like I think we owe a lot to
15:25cereal and that effect I mean that was
15:26just the biggest show it didn't matter
15:28that it was podcast it was just the
15:31I don't think that there's this notion
15:33that it's risky to go into podcasting
15:36that it's lesser I think it feels like
15:39the most exciting thing I think it's
15:40equivalent to the kind of the startup
15:42world where you know you could have had
15:44a you know a great job at IBM or
15:47something but there's something amazing
15:49about doing something on your own and
15:51working like crazy at it and building
15:53your own thing and I think that people
15:55across all media respect that and across
15:58the world at large - Megan Quinn tweeted
16:01yesterday that podcasts are the future
16:03of content marketing there are just very
16:05few brands that are doing it super well
16:07right now but she pointed to a few that
16:10you know slack for example and I think
16:12she's had a couple others that are doing
16:14a great job yeah I mean I worry about
16:16that a little bit I mean slack like
16:18Stewart Butterfield is a real podcast
16:21fan so he wants to make a good podcast
16:22as soon as it becomes just a brand
16:26exercise I worry a little bit about how
16:29much noise that will create in the
16:30system but there's good stories in all
16:33kinds of places so there's no reason why
16:36one that's a very you know branded show
16:38could not be fantastic it would totally
16:41work in a lot of ways but I think that
16:43it has to function the same way that
16:45good public radio stations work or good
16:47you know editorial shops in general is
16:48just like editorial independence and you
16:50know like a strong narrative voice and
16:53personality and all the things that make
16:55good shows will make those you know
16:57those shows created for that purpose
16:58could - I do remember a talk a few years
17:01ago at xoxo that Marco Arment gave on
17:04brands doing podcasts his whole point
17:08was that for brands it's it goes back to
17:10this theme of intimacy it's a whole new
17:12way to strike a connection with the
17:14people that want to engage with them now
17:16again the question is whether those
17:17people actually want to engage with the
17:19brand and also frankly I think that we
17:21have to expand the definition of what is
17:23a brand because these days I feel a lot
17:25of brands or collectives of things that
17:27go beyond the traditional notion of a
17:29product and a company and a logo yeah
17:32because of the intimacy it's
17:33non-transferable so you're gonna connect
17:35to that post or that producer and so in
17:38a way that that puts a person in the way
17:40of the brand or the mission of a pod
17:43caste that has to do with that is a goal
17:45basically the brand has to be cool
17:47enough to allow that person to kind of
17:49speak for them but not really and form
17:52that connection and you know be that
17:54proxy and so the brands are cool enough
17:57to do that we'll have good podcasts I
18:00think that's certainly possible like I I
18:02mean as a producer for a long time I
18:04mean I love these types of challenges
18:06I like making interesting things out of
18:08boring things how do you make something
18:09interesting in that its purpose you know
18:12from the very beginning it's not
18:13necessarily about art it's about
18:15Commerce and how do you turn that into a
18:17work of art making a good show is
18:20extremely hard and maintaining it it's
18:22ridiculously hard the podcast form as
18:25we've discussed is kind of unique and
18:27Roman over that your time doing this and
18:30also doing public radio what have you
18:32found in terms of the elements of a good
18:34segment like what works and and really
18:37for you at least what doesn't design my
18:39show to play into the intimacy so even
18:42the the miking the tone of it is about
18:45intimacy and so that's one thing whereas
18:48when you're broadcasting at large you
18:52tend to speak in different terms like I
18:54use second person a lot I just say you a
18:56lot which is not in broadcast parlance
18:58like really common because I do feel
19:01like the communication is one-to-one
19:04because you're listening to it
19:05solo I mean listen to radio solo but
19:08there's something about the idea of the
19:10broadcasting medium that makes you think
19:12of a group of people rather than one
19:14person though I think that works I think
19:16that there's a there's a transparency in
19:18terms of your interests I think really
19:21shines through so there's a reason why a
19:24lot of the podcasts are very nerdy in
19:29general not just boring but they're
19:31about a passion about right you know you
19:34know exposing a passion and you really
19:37pick up on that and you get it when it's
19:39not real like you pick up on that when
19:41it's not real because of the no time
19:43constraints I used to work against a
19:46clock all the time and so a huge part of
19:49my job as a producer was cutting to make
19:51time or you know filling to hit a time
19:54and now I don't do that
19:56the problem with that is if you aren't
19:59disciplined and you come into podcasting
20:00knew your inclination is to make a
20:03two-hour long podcast cuz there's no one
20:05telling you to stop you know so there's
20:17that freedom to be off of a broadcast
20:19clock but we should do is like as it
20:21professional eise's and as you sort of
20:23want to craft your show more than me you
20:25know you should doesn't always like I
20:26love shows that rainbow if I love to
20:28spend time with people like as an
20:29audience member I like to spend time
20:30with them I don't have a hard stop time
20:33that I'm looking for but like to serve
20:35your audience really well is to serve
20:37the story and not necessarily listen to
20:39them when they say I just want you to
20:40keep talking and talking to talking and
20:42so you edit to just serve the story and
20:45that's a great thing but you have to be
20:47disciplined enough to know what serving
20:49the story means you know and other
20:52things that worked a lot of it to me is
20:53is tone and interest and and just that
20:57genuine sort of connection is really the
20:59guiding principle for me how do you how
21:01do you get feedback for your podcasts I
21:03mean you you have some data on listeners
21:05which is kind of vague in the podcast
21:06world relative to metrics like our
21:09website but how do you get feedback how
21:10do you know you're doing something good
21:12I always get kind of confused by the
21:16talk of how podcasts don't have good
21:19data because I worked in radio and we
21:23just sort of agreed on a lie together
21:25about what ratings meant it's not like a
21:28better data it's just an older lie and
21:31so Nielsen ratings and Arbitron ratings
21:33for radio and stuff I think those are
21:36way more problematic than my downloads I
21:38mean sure there's a there's a download
21:39and you don't know if someone listened
21:41to it but so what let's just all agree
21:43that that's it and then we can measure
21:45the efficacy of the ads that's why
21:47there's all these you know product codes
21:49and stuff like that in your ads and you
21:51measure those and you start to come up
21:53with a good you know rule of thumb for
21:55how this all works and I am less worried
21:59about that than other people mainly
22:01because I've been in old media and that
22:03that data blue I mean was terrible data
22:06this is way better data when you come
22:10world and you do get data I mean god
22:12when we were at Wired I was glued to
22:14chart beat like you know where do people
22:15drop off well like which what happened
22:18yeah and so for me it's very frustrating
22:20to not know a lot of those things
22:23and tonight I'm able to answer those
22:24questions when people ask and I always
22:26say well it's early days of podcasting
22:28technology analytics yet and and and
22:31it's it's hard to tell I mean to your
22:32point you're right like at some point
22:34everyone agrees to tell the same lie but
22:36the point is it has to be the same exact
22:38lie yeah which is what Nielsen was when
22:41it's something where you have a
22:42hodgepodge of very different tools and
22:44one tool will measure RSS and one won't
22:47and another will include demographics
22:49and another won't you're just there's
22:51just a lot of insight I think that
22:52people miss I think that's true there's
22:54definitely tools that can be made and
22:56you definitely hear when you hear
22:57someone talk about their download
22:59numbers and you're kind of like oh I
23:00don't think I count downloads the same
23:02way you count downloads and stuff like
23:04that but I tend to go in with that you
23:06know what I somebody sells me out like I
23:08work with prx and radio topi and they
23:10sell my ads for me and stuff like that
23:11but I also do them I do deals like that
23:13on my own because sometimes I can get
23:15better deals and and I like that part of
23:18it and I just use bluster I mean I just
23:20sort of say because I only put ads at
23:23the end of my show because artistically
23:25that's just what I want I don't have a
23:27problem with it with other people I
23:28don't love it with other people but it's
23:30just my choice and people just say to me
23:32well we've been trying to only buy
23:34mineral and pre-roll ads because we find
23:37that they're the most effective and I
23:38was like no you just think they're the
23:39most effective but if you ever ties with
23:41me I will prove to you that mine are
23:44better than anybody else's it always
23:45works you talk about finding an audience
23:47but how do advertisers who want to
23:50advertise at the end of a show about
23:52boring things finds you or decide that
23:55hey that would be great for our brand
23:57well they just like the show their
23:59Falcon in this show when the show
24:00started about five years ago I felt like
24:03I was onto something special because I'm
24:04I'm a radio person so like when I go to
24:06other cities I'd like visit their radio
24:08stations you know because I'm a nerd but
24:10like you know that guy hanging out
24:11without the public radio people and in
24:13the beginning you know no person in
24:15management knew what 99% invisible was
24:18but all the interns knew and
24:22was like okay I'm on to something here
24:24and so what's happened over time is that
24:27these deals often happen because there's
24:29one person in the marketing department
24:31that's just a superfan and they just
24:34push it forward and that's what ends up
24:36happening and then these corporations
24:38are made of people one of my first
24:40advertisers was Facebook Facebook
24:43doesn't advertise with anybody why would
24:44they you know they have the biggest
24:46platform for a lot of things and so
24:48there's no need but the Facebook design
24:50team was just like we want to be
24:52associated with you we would like we'd
24:53like to help because I'm a little bit in
24:56the public radio world where it's like
24:58to support me is not only an act like a
25:01transaction in an act of Commerce it's
25:03also like a donation and this affinity
25:06thing that makes you feel good so Ryan
25:09and Eric as listeners of podcasts and
25:11now as curators and active discoverers
25:14of podcasts from the audience
25:16perspective what do you guys think makes
25:19your podcast work or the podcast that
25:21you listen to work so well or not work
25:22so well what's interesting about
25:25podcasting is unlike radio you had a
25:27limited number of stations to listen to
25:29or chose to listen to now there's a ton
25:31of podcasts out there and just like the
25:33internet you can now find a niche like a
25:35tiny little seemingly small little place
25:38for you to geek out about some sort of
25:40topic or some sort of thing or some
25:42personality that you're really attracted
25:44to and so podcasting just the nature of
25:46the Internet in general podcasting is
25:48this place where you can find all kinds
25:50of shows out there and it may not be
25:52massive like cereal but there's probably
25:54some niche podcasts out there that you
25:56might personally love or maybe a group
25:58of people like yourself love and that's
26:00what that's what I like about podcasts
26:02yeah I'm personally really big into a
26:03lot of the startup podcasts like startup
26:06by gimlet is a big favorite of mine this
26:08weekend start us by Jason Calacanis is
26:10I've watched since episode one and I
26:12think he's on episode 500 something it's
26:14insane and a number of other podcasts
26:17I'm a big fan of what do you think I'm
26:19also a fan of shows that allowed me to
26:21get into worlds that I wouldn't get into
26:23otherwise so for example Marc Maron you
26:26know with actors and comedians and
26:29long-form with journalists I feel like
26:31I'm a fly on the wall of two people
26:33having a very intimate
26:35rosacea and the more authentic and in
26:37you know intimate and honest it's almost
26:39like they don't even think that they're
26:41being recorded yeah and so I love just
26:43being there with them getting to see the
26:45world it's such a top place that I could
26:47get to otherwise I'll give you two in
26:48mine cooking issues this guy Dave Arnold
26:51who wrote a cocktail book out in New
26:52York it's all like food tech you know
26:53nerdiness and I like listening to
26:56welcome to night Vale just because it's
26:58so funny and weird I love that one too I
27:00have a huge list of podcasts as you
27:02mentioned earlier Ryan on Twitter that I
27:04maintain and the ones that I actually
27:07like the most are super indie very raw
27:09like like you know literally there's
27:11like three women talking about their
27:12dating adventures in New York City like
27:14that's what my favorite podcast how is
27:16the redesign of the San Francisco flag
27:18going it's going okay we just sort of
27:22it's a little bit ahead of itself so we
27:24the TED talk came out where I talked
27:26about how bad the San Francisco flag was
27:28and then we had to sort of put up a page
27:31just to collect people and so right now
27:33Autodesk and I are kind of trying to
27:36figure out the plan for how to make this
27:37all work there was an article in the
27:40newspaper last weekend about it and
27:42there was some good response and some
27:44extremely negative response I know I
27:46think that it's gonna happen I think
27:49and clearly manhole covers are your next
27:52to target for redesign I'm hopeful I
27:56don't think anyone really loves the old
27:57one so which is why which is why it work
27:59it's it's fun i-i've been involved and
28:02now since the TED talk came out people
28:05send me all about redesigns of flags and
28:07so it's an interesting world to be a
28:08part of people want me to weigh in on it
28:10I was getting begged to by people in New
28:12Zealand to like please comment please do
28:14something about New Zealand and then I
28:16was getting really and then I was I was
28:17getting emails last week about from San
28:21Francisco and st. just off about
28:23her flat another neat example of where
28:28the community thing comes into play one
28:30of my favorite things is when people
28:31actually when they listen to our podcast
28:34like someone like drew a diagram based
28:36on it might not just write a post but
28:37like someone I should do a diagram
28:39saying well here's how I've envisioned
28:40the big data stack based on this podcast
28:43I love seeing those kinds of products
28:45like physical artifacts that people can
28:49the things I love about your podcast so
28:51one last question to wrap up then is
28:53coming back to this theme of intimacy
28:55and kind of connecting it to tech again
28:57because Roman you talked about and other
29:00people have written quite a bit about
29:01how smartphones played a really
29:04significant role potentially in this
29:06so-called podcast Renaissance and I
29:08think we have a tendency to view a
29:09smartphone as like a piece of tech in
29:11our hands but there's a whole level of
29:13intimacy that comes with voice and I'd
29:16love to hear your guys's thoughts all of
29:17your thoughts on how that plays out more
29:21beyond what we've already talked about
29:22I'm trying to get at other ways we might
29:24create intimacy through tech whether
29:26it's through voice is it the smart phone
29:28is it the intimacy of the car is it
29:31building a community like what are the
29:33things that sort of create the sense of
29:34intimacy I think there's a number of
29:37things that can create more intimacy
29:38online I think live streaming as I
29:40mentioned earlier I think has a lot of
29:41opportunity to create that intimate kind
29:44of conversation because it's it's a
29:45participatory media as what Ben Rubin
29:47from your cat kind of describes it where
29:49you actually change the course of the
29:51narrative and you are actually
29:53interacting with with the podcast or the
29:55person on the camera but then there's
29:58also like virtual reality and technology
30:00like that we have yet to see how that
30:02will actually change the way we interact
30:04with people online but I can imagine
30:06that being extremely intimate because
30:08it's probably going to be the closest
30:09thing to being right next to someone
30:11online to digital means on the community
30:14front we've seen podcast like death sex
30:17you know solicit recordings from people
30:19and then put them in their own podcast
30:21as well oh that's interesting yeah Roman
30:24about what's your view on this because I
30:26know you have such a wonderfully highly
30:28produced approach how do you think about
30:30this I mean you described some of your
30:32I like that connection I mean definitely
30:34get ideas from from people I can't
30:37really incorporate them in real time but
30:38I think that there's something there to
30:40have that conversation and I rely on
30:42Twitter and Facebook for those things
30:44and I love that part of things I like
30:46interacting with the audience as this
30:48develops I think the hosts that are
30:50gonna really do well with this are the
30:52ones are gonna embrace all these points
30:54of connection with people and it's gonna
30:56be just part of your job as a host I
30:59mean I think Voice works because you
31:03it's it's literally in your brain it's
31:05happening in your brain and you know I'm
31:08getting in there and there's a way that
31:11we can paint the picture as stalkers I
31:14completely control your imagination in
31:17those moments and there's something
31:18about that that is just a super powerful
31:20that's one of the reasons why I like
31:22doing something so visual like covering
31:25architecture and design on the radio is
31:27the perversity of that connection is
31:30because I know that people have real
31:34visceral reactions to the way things
31:36look people look at modern buildings and
31:38they hate them you know and they love
31:40Victorians and Gothic architecture and
31:42stuff but if I can tell you the story of
31:44that building before you see it when you
31:47see it you'll love it there's something
31:49about the power of knowing the story of
31:51something that just transforms the way
31:54you think and observe things I've never
31:57seen anything like that there's no other
31:59way of communicating that works in that
32:01same way you know I just hope that the
32:04voice part is always part of what I do I
32:06want to say Roman just keep doing what
32:09you're doing and we will keep listening
32:10don't listen to the naysayers about the
32:12San Francisco flag forge ahead by God
32:14and do it in New Zealand too for that
32:17matter and you know I hate manhole cover
32:19so have at them as well Brian and Eric
32:22we will keep product hunting with you
32:24and thank you guys all so much for
32:27joining us thanks for having us thank
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