00:00he saidou know one day I was talking to
00:01Kim and he told me what his dream was I
00:04said' whatat was his dream he said his
00:05dream he told me was one day to walk
00:08down Fifth Avenue with Dennis Rodman go
00:11to Madison quer garden and watch the New
00:14York Knicks play the Chicago
00:17Bulls Bingo it was like you know I
00:20listen for those little this is what you
00:21do in negotiation you listen for those
00:23little nuggets that give you an insight
00:26into the dreams you know it's beyond the
00:28interest it's deeper than the interest
00:29the dreams and the fears that th those
00:31two things are really big the dreams of
00:35the other side and I got a sense okay
00:37maybe there is something possible here
00:39my colleagues and I then worked on it
00:41but you know the world was shocked a
00:44year later when Donald Trump sat down
00:48with Kim Jong-un in Singapore and they
00:50actually got along with each other but I
00:52wasn't shocked because I talked to
00:54Dennis Rodman so Dennis Rodman helped me
00:56figure out what Kim jong-un's victory
01:15William I'm so thrilled to be spending
01:18time with you today and having this
01:19conversation so thank you for carving
01:21out the time oh it's a great pleasure
01:23Tim I've been looking forward to this
01:25I've read uh more than one of your books
01:30used getting past no specifically to
01:32help build my first company and have
01:37really used many of your Frameworks and
01:40techniques so this is a real treat for
01:42me and I thought we might hit rewind
01:46though going back in time before getting
01:48past no to getting to yes but more
01:53specifically looking at Roger fiser and
01:56learning about Roger fiser how did the
02:01Connect we connected at Harvard I was
02:0622 I was a new a graduate student in
02:10Social anthropology I wanted to study
02:12anthropology because I wanted to
02:14understand human beings I was curious it
02:15was a license to be curious and to
02:17travel learn about other cultures and
02:20and figure out why we're so strange in
02:24ways but I wanted to apply anthropology
02:27to something practical and I thought
02:28what about the subject of War and Peace
02:30I mean something you know you could
02:32really sink your teeth into why is it
02:34that we're you know poised on the verge
02:37of self-destruction as a species and so
02:41I had to write a research paper in
02:43anthropology about what I might do
02:45fieldwork on and I thought why don't I
02:46do field work on a peace negotiation so
02:49I heard Roger fiser was over at the law
02:50school and he was working on peace
02:52negotiation so I went in to see him and
02:54and he was very generous with his time
02:56and then I he said send me your paper
02:59and I sent him in the paper I didn't
03:00think of it twice and then one and then
03:051977 cold January night I was on the
03:08third floor of my attic room you know
03:11grading my my students exams and you
03:15know setting for my own exams and the
03:17phone rings and there's a voice that
03:19says this is Professor Roger fiser I
03:24just read your paper about taking an
03:27anthropological view of the Middle East
03:28peace negotiation and I found it really
03:31I found it so interesting I sent the
03:32central chart to the assistant Secretary
03:35of State for the Middle East because
03:37he's working on these things I thought
03:39interesting well wow I was floored I was
03:43just like speechless you know I didn't
03:45know what to say and and he said and I'd
03:49like you to come work with me and so
03:52that phone call I can honestly say
03:54changed my life I mean that that phone
03:56call that generous phone call that
03:58generous invitation from Roger to come
04:01work with him on International Peace
04:03negotiations and other negotiations
04:06really that's been the course I you know
04:08I never did you get a call from a
04:10professor let alone on a weekend night
04:13and never in my wildest imagination
04:15would I've imagined that some idea that
04:17I'd cooked up in my little attic rental
04:20room on the third floor would be a
04:23possible use to a practitioner in the
04:26world's most complicated negotiations so
04:29that I got hooked and that I've been on
04:31that Journey ever since I can see that
04:33being quite the the dopamine reward Rush
04:38right not only receiving the call but
04:40having your work sent to the highest
04:44levels right on the front lines is is
04:48really something out of the story books
04:51at the time was Roger teaching the
04:56seminar or was that uh a precursor to
04:59what he was doing at the time or or
05:00maybe it came afterwards he was just
05:02doing that and that's what he asked me
05:03to work on to coordinate and facilitate
05:05this devising seminar which was an
05:07amazing thing which was every couple
05:09weeks at the Harvard Faculty Club over
05:12dinner bunch of Faculty from different
05:15disciplines and visiting diplomats would
05:18be invited to what Roger called the
05:20devising center devise means to create
05:23to be inventive you know to kind of
05:24craft something new and he would pose a
05:28question that you would never ask
05:29Academia which is what can I don't know
05:32the Secretary of State or what can this
05:35President do tomorrow
05:38morning what can they operationally do
05:40tomorrow morning that could help take us
05:44forward on the Middle East or South
05:46Africa or the cold war or Northern
05:48Ireland or whatever the issue was and
05:52instead of just sitting back and
05:57analyzing this collect of intelligence
06:00was being harnessed to try to focus in
06:02on what practical step could someone do
06:05tomorrow morning what in Rogers
06:09background drove him to be so motivated
06:13to take action in these type of
06:16conflicts or circumstances he had just
06:18graduated from Harvard he'd gone into
06:20World War II MH in the F in the Pacific
06:23War and when he came back a lot of his
06:26friends were gone didn't come back and
06:29and his father had been a lawyer he went
06:32into international law he went to work
06:34at Paris on the Marshall Plan but his
06:38passion really was seeing if we could
06:40find a better way to deal with our
06:44differences than you know dropping BMS
06:46and destroying everything and I had the
06:49same passion I actually I'd spent some
06:51time growing up in Europe I'd seen the
06:53ruins you know still in France and
06:56Germany and other places and you saw all
06:59the graveyards of World War I World War
07:01II and and then there was every
07:03expectation that there might be a World
07:04War III there was a nuclear bomb shelter
07:06in the school and it was like there's
07:09got to be we've got to have a a more
07:12creative way and that's I think what led
07:13to the devising seminar and Rogers work
07:16and and that's how he and I really came
07:19together with a common passion are there
07:23particular uh maybe intervention is too
07:26strong a word but conclusions or
07:31next actions that came of those devising
07:34seminars that stand out to you there
07:37were several but many one was about a
07:40year into my work less than a year
07:43probably the end of August 1978 Roger
07:47called me into his office and said guess
07:50what I just came back from Martha's
07:52Vineyard and I happened to play a game
07:53of tennis with s Vance who was the US
07:55Secretary of State and he told me about
07:59there's this peace Summit planned in
08:00September where President Carter is
08:02bringing the leader of Egypt anir Sadat
08:06the president and the prime minister of
08:08Israel manahan Bean together for a peace
08:09Summit and he asked me if I had any
08:12ideas and I brought him back to the
08:14cottage and I showed him this little
08:16booklet that Roger fiser and I had
08:17worked on hard which was called
08:19International mediators a working guide
08:22which we joked there was about maybe six
08:24in the world so I had a very small
08:25audience but there was an idea in it
08:28which was a creative idea that came out
08:29of the law of the sea negotiations for a
08:31onext process and he said and he
08:33suggested it to to Vance and Vance had
08:36asked him to write up a memo and so we
08:39called a devising seminar we got Louis
08:41Son who'd worked on the law of the sea
08:42we got all these professors and then we
08:44wrote a memo and sent it to sance and
08:46then Camp David happened the Egyptians
08:49and Israelis arrived at Camp David for
08:51this Retreat and after three days they
08:53were just going at at hammer and tongs
08:55they were just dug into their positions
08:57you know Egypt demanded the the entire
08:59siai back Israel wanted to keep a third
09:02you know manak Bean said I'll cut off my
09:05I'll pluck out my right eye and cut off
09:07my right hand rather than surrender a
09:09single settlement they were just about
09:11to give up and then cyance remembered
09:16briefcase and he said he said to Carter
09:18he said well why don't we try out this
09:19idea for a one text a one text process
09:24and they tried it out and this is the
09:26way it went was the Americans instead of
09:30the Egyptians and the Israelis in the
09:31traditional way you know the mediator
09:32goes in and asks you to make a
09:33concession no one wants to make a
09:35concession no one wants to no one wants
09:38to make the first concession because
09:39that'll signal weakness for sure and you
09:42know beg it and so that said I have to
09:43go back and consult and you know it
09:45wasn't going to go anywhere so the
09:47Americans said instead this with the one
09:49text process they said don't make any
09:51concessions we understand what your
09:53positions are just tell us what your
09:56are and they said what do you mean we
09:58said tell us what you really want what
10:00are you really concerned about I mean
10:01it's you're trying to draw a line in the
10:02sand but what's the underlying driver
10:06what what is it you're really afraid of
10:08what are you concerned of what what do
10:10you really want and the Egyptians talked
10:12about sovereignty Sadat said you know
10:14this land has been ours since the time
10:16of the Pharaohs and we want it back and
10:18the Israelis talked about security
10:20Egyptians had attacked them four times
10:22in the previous you know 30 years across
10:25the Sinai and they didn't want that
10:26happening again so then the question
10:29not where do we draw a line in the sand
10:32but how do we get Egyptian sovereignty
10:35and Israeli security and the Americans
10:37went back and drafted up what's called
10:39the Onex it's a non-paper paper it's
10:41very low status it's you've got coffee
10:43stains on it or whatever it is but it
10:45was an idea to to do both to try and
10:48reconcile both interests to meet the
10:50interests of both and it was based on an
10:52idea actually the Egyptians at surface
10:54which was a demilitarized Sinai a Sinai
10:57where you know Egypt gets the entire
10:59Sinai back the flag can fly everywhere
11:02but it's demilitarized so Israel gets
11:04security so the Americans and in this
11:06context sorry to interrupt demilitarized
11:08means there cannot be presence of
11:09military forces that's it Egyptian tanks
11:12can go nowhere and basically Americans
11:14the the idea was to propose that you
11:16know the Americans would put technical
11:17means You' put a little multinational
11:19force in there but you could tell if a
11:21goat crossed but no Armed Forces there
11:24exactly mhm got it the one text the way
11:27it works is very simple it's get kind of
11:29like what in in Silicon Valley called
11:31rapid prototyping nowadays but
11:33essentially the Americans took the idea
11:37said we're not asking you to accept it
11:40we don't want you to make any decisions
11:42all we want you to do is criticize it
11:44well no one likes to make a hard
11:47decision but everybody loves to
11:49criticize so the Egyptians criticized it
11:51the Israelis criticized it the Americans
11:54went back and redrafted the proposal to
11:56try to address the concerns and then
11:58they brought it back and did it again
12:01and again more criticism the Americans
12:04went through that process 23 times there
12:06were 23 drafts over the course of 13
12:10days even less because there was fewer
12:12days and by the end of it only at the
12:15very end of that process did Carter go
12:17to Sadat and bean the two leaders and
12:19say this is the best we can do we can't
12:23improve it anymore we can't make it
12:25better for one without making it worse
12:26for the other this is the best we can do
12:28do you want to or not and then Sadat and
12:30bean were faced with a very different
12:32decision instead of having to make
12:33multiple painful concessions they had to
12:36make only one decision and only at the
12:38end of the process when they could see
12:40exactly what they were going to get in
12:42return and so you know saddat could see
12:45he was going to get the entire Sinai
12:47back Bean could see he was going to get
12:49an unprecedented peace with Egypt and
12:51they both said yes and that's what led
12:54to the camp David peace treaty to a
12:57treaty that has lasted 40 years years
12:59has lasted actually more than that at
13:01this point to 45 years to this point has
13:05lasted to this day even in the midst of
13:07Wars assassination ketas and it was the
13:11inventive idea of like applying our
13:14creativity not just to the hardware of
13:16software of computers but to the way in
13:19which we negotiate that there are better
13:20ways to negotiate more effective yeah
13:22and that was a really just powerful
13:24example for me I mean it's the software
13:27of humans in a way the software of
13:29humans that's what we need that's really
13:31what we need Tim right now you mentioned
13:34a few things I want to underscore the
13:36first was the powerful looking behind
13:37positions for the underlying interests I
13:39suspect we'll come back to this for sure
13:41but identifying the wants desires
13:43concerns fears that are behind a request
13:47or a sort of unrelenting
13:52position and you also mentioned
13:55that I'd love for you and you didn't say
13:59but it seemed to imply what I'm about to
14:04is writing the other side's victory
14:06speech and quotation marks like what are
14:09they going to use to explain to
14:13others why they agreed to X right
14:17whatever that is would you mind
14:19expanding on that doesn't need to be in
14:21the Camp David context could be in
14:24but it's it strikes me that in in both
14:27cases I mean these leaders need to go
14:29back and explain to their cabinets to
14:32their populace why they did X and that
14:39of consideration of external
14:42judgment I would imagine accounts for a
14:45lot of failures at the negotiating table
14:48so if you could speak to to any or all
14:50of that I would I would love to
14:53hear yeah the victory speech is one of
14:56my favorite exercises because you're
14:58looking at an impossible situation it
15:00could be with your boss could be with
15:02your roommate or it could be you know an
15:04international conflict but you're
15:06looking at something seemingly
15:08impossible it's kind of like you know I
15:11like to climb mountains you know you're
15:13at the bottom of the mountain you look
15:14at the top of the mountain and it seems
15:16impossible to get there you can't get
15:18from here to there in your mind but you
15:20might be able if you use your
15:23imagination put yourself on top of the
15:25mountain get from there to here and then
15:27you can figure out your way back
15:29in other words you can work backwards
15:30and that's that's what is behind the
15:32victory speech which is when you're
15:37conflict start by writing out the other
15:40side's victory speech imagine you're
15:43asking your boss for something or what
15:44you know it might be a situation and you
15:48out what is it you imagine just as a
15:51thought experiment imagine your boss
15:53says yes to you they accept what you
15:55want them to do they say yeah now
15:57imagine your boss then has to go and
15:59justify that to someone else whom he
16:01cares about maybe his board of directors
16:03maybe his peers or her peers M write out
16:06the victory s just write out maybe three
16:07talking points like how could they
16:09present to the people that they care
16:12about why have they said yes to your
16:15proposal it's got to be a victory for
16:17them it's got can be a victory for you
16:19obviously because they're doing what you
16:20want them to do but think about it and
16:23think about the hardest questions that
16:25they're going to get the criticisms that
16:26they're going to receive and then think
16:28about what are the best answers they can
16:30give go through that exercise and then
16:34negotiator as helping them deliver that
16:36victory speech and I can tell you about
16:38how I've used it but that's that that's
16:40the essence of it is to is to work
16:43backwards think about what victory would
16:45look like and then work forwards I would
16:48love to hear how you've used it in any
16:50context well one context back in
16:542017 Donald Trump had become president
16:57Kim Jong-un of North
16:59Korea was testing nuclear missiles
17:03ballistic nuclear missiles aimed at the
17:05United States testing nuclear weapons I
17:08mean it Obama had warned Trump that this
17:10was the most dangerous situation he was
17:12leaving on his watch and Trump was
17:15saying this won't happen and experts
17:17were worrying this could be you know a
17:19nuclear war a nuclear crisis you know
17:21that some people were saying was a 50%
17:23odds of war and so I sat down with my
17:26colleagues and I thought okay let's sit
17:27down I don't know that much about North
17:29Korea a little bit but but let's see if
17:32we can write out Donald Trump's victory
17:34speech and more more importantly Kim
17:36jong-un's victory speech in which they
17:38decide not to go to war but to actually
17:41meet instead and try and workouts and
17:44agreement and for Trump you know he was
17:47kind of an open more of an open book
17:49because you could you know knew a lot
17:50about him you know he would have to say
17:52you know like his three talking points
17:54be this was the best deal ever you know
17:57Obama couldn't do do this Clinton
17:59couldn't do this Bush couldn't do this
18:01but I could do this I made the biggest
18:02deal that really spared the world from
18:04nuclear war it's the biggest deal ever
18:06that was Point number one point number
18:08two would be I kept America safe and
18:09point number three is and I didn't spend
18:11a penny you know because that that was
18:13important for him but Kim Jong-un we
18:16didn't know there was nothing known
18:17about him a black book he was new and so
18:19on and the only person I could find out
18:21who knew anything about Kim Jong-un I
18:22went on the web was a retired American
18:26basketball player by the name of Dennis
18:31so in order to write Kim jong-un's
18:33victory speech you know I we tried to
18:35figure it out on the web you know what
18:36he would care about safety and respect
18:38and economics but to really understand
18:40him I had to try and track down Dennis
18:42Rodman and that is the key is to really
18:45go to the ends of the world whoever you
18:47need to talk to figure out what drives
18:51the person you're trying to influence
18:53and so what happened did you get a hold
18:55of Dennis well do you guys have a pow
18:58hour what happened we did it took a
19:00while you know I tried you tried the you
19:02know proverbial Six Degrees of
19:04Separation this person that person I
19:06know someone who knew the coach of the
19:07Lakers who'd been their coach whatever
19:09but that didn't work out and then and
19:11then I tried a different way and I
19:13finally got a hold of someone who was a
19:17Rodman's and I talked to him and
19:19explained look the world's in danger
19:21here and I need to talk to Dennis he's
19:24the only one who seems to know Kim
19:25Jong-un he's the only American and he
19:28said 'well Dennis comes to visit me
19:30sometimes you can I'll arrange for us to
19:32have pizza sometime I'll let you know
19:33he's in La he comes stay with me so I at
19:37the appointed moment you know I flew out
19:39there for pizza Dennis wasn't there the
19:42guy said oh he goes out partying
19:44sometimes he forgets or whatever he said
19:45but you can spend the night and so I
19:48canceled my plans spent the night next
19:51morning I finally you know Dennis
19:54Rodin's there you know and he says what
19:56do you want bad day man bad day what why
19:59do you want to talk to me and I said
20:00well because you're the only one who
20:03knows Kim Jong-un and I'd really like to
20:05hear what what you learned from him
20:07about what makes him tick what's what
20:09are his interests and he then proceeded
20:12to tell me the story of how he'd gotten
20:15to know him he'd gone over for an
20:17exhibition basketball game one day and
20:19he was just watching the game and
20:20suddenly Kim Jong-un is Right sitting
20:22right next to him and then Kim invites
20:24him out to go drinking and then he goes
20:26home and he holds Kim's baby M and he
20:28told me a couple things he Saidi
20:30actually believe that Kim doesn't want
20:32War I know he's perceived in the west as
20:35kind of a Madman and so on but he
20:36doesn't want war he he actually wants to
20:38engage with the west and as an example
20:41he he gave me this he said you know one
20:43day I was talking to Kim and he told me
20:45what his dream was I said what was his
20:46dream he said his dream he told me was
20:49one day to walk down Fifth Avenue with
20:52Dennis Rodman go to Madison quer garden
20:56and watch the New York Knicks play the
20:59Bulls Bingo it was like you know I
21:02listen for those little this is what you
21:04do in negotiation you listen for those
21:05little nuggets that give you an insight
21:08into the dreams you know it's beyond the
21:10interest it's deeper than the interest
21:12the dreams and the fears that th those
21:14two things are really big the dreams of
21:17the other side and I got a sense okay
21:20maybe there is something possible here
21:22my colleagues and I then worked on it
21:23but you know the world was shocked a
21:26year later when Donald Trump sat down
21:30with Kim Jong-un in Singapore and they
21:33actually got along with each other but I
21:35wasn't shocked because I talked to
21:36Dennis Rodman so Dennis Rodman helped me
21:39figure out what Kim jong-un's victory
21:41speech was and what was interesting was
21:45in after Singapore they those two guys
21:47didn't wait Donald Trump tweeted you
21:50know the American people are safe now no
21:52worries he tweeted his victory speech
21:55already and Kim Jong-un also held this
21:57as a great victory for North Korea just
21:59their meeting yeah and what was key was
22:03that even though they didn't reach an
22:05agreement they changed the atmosphere
22:07through meeting and the perceived risk
22:10of nuclear war went down from maybe 50%
22:13to 1% so it shows just the the power of
22:17the victory speech of each one being
22:19able to be a hero to the people that
22:22about so William I would love to ask you
22:24a question which I hesitate to ask
22:26because it's a but an issue but because
22:31time in Conflict zones or at least
22:34operating as an adviser to those who are
22:37contending with conflict zones what do
22:39you wish you could do or
22:42orchestrate or what type of conversation
22:44do you wish you could coordinate with
22:47respect to the situation in the Middle
22:50East as as it stands right
22:53now is was there anything that would be
22:55on your wish list or at the top of your
22:58priorities in terms of strategy and how
23:01to defuse some of what's happening in
23:06East wellow so this is what I would say
23:10it is a OD button issue I would
23:13say there is no solution in the Middle
23:18realistic there's no like two-state
23:23solution because there's no end to it
23:25but there might just be a beginning A
23:28New Beginning because I'm I'm a
23:29possibilist people ask me you know after
23:32all these years you know are you an
23:34optimist are you a pessimist and
23:36actually even though I am an optimist of
23:38sorts I'd like to say I'm a possibilist
23:41you know I believe in possibility and
23:43even when it comes to a situation
23:45seemingly as impossible as heartbreaking
23:49as heart-rending as the Middle East is
23:52now I actually think that even in these
23:55times of extreme crisis you can see
23:57possibility is if you can just stay
23:59still for a moment if you can what I
24:01call go to the balcony you know just
24:04kind of detach yourself a little bit
24:05watch it as a play see where the
24:07possibilities are and even though there
24:10might not be a solution there could be a
24:12process even though there's no end to
24:15the conflict there could be a beginning
24:17of a different way of living together
24:20because if you look behind the positions
24:23the things that people fight about the
24:25things that people say they want for
24:26what they deep underlying interests are
24:28what are their deepest concerns what are
24:30their deepest fears what are their
24:32deepest aspirations if you dive down the
24:34you know like go down the iceberg to
24:37what's underneath the water then I think
24:40the question then becomes reframed
24:43as how can the Israelis and Palestinians
24:47peoples live together how can they live
24:50together it's the ancient stoic question
24:52right how can they live together in
24:55dignity security how can they live
24:58alongside each other and if that's the
25:01question then you can I've you know then
25:04you ask yourself has that ever been done
25:06in the world before with other
25:07impossible conflicts and I can say in
25:10the last 45 years whether it's in South
25:13Africa or blacks and whites there was a
25:14race war or Northern Ireland you know
25:17sectarian war between Catholics and
25:19Protestants or Colombia Guerilla war and
25:22other places too where it seemed
25:24absolutely impossible I've watched
25:26people do that I've watched
25:29people there was no solution there's no
25:32ending of the conflict but there's a
25:34transformation of the conflict the
25:37transformed and remarkable results occur
25:41and I think that that's still possible
25:43in the Middle East what were any of the
25:47key elements in any of the conflicts
25:51mentioned that provided the opening for
25:55that transformation that Turning Point
25:58are there any common ingredients or any
26:01historical examples that you can think
26:03of well one is the right leaders the
26:06right kinds of leaders who
26:09can I'll give you just an example from
26:12Africa some someone I admire who's a
26:15like iconic possibilist you know Nelson
26:18Mandela who was a kind of very reactive
26:21kind of guy was a boxer quick to take
26:23slights and so on but when he went into
26:25prison he was in prison for 27 years he
26:30really focused on self-mastery
26:33he learned to meditate he learned to
26:36observe himself he writes about it in
26:40autobiography he learned to control his
26:43natural reactivity he learned what I
26:45call to go to the balcony not to react
26:47but to go to the balcony
26:50and then he also studied the language of
26:53his enemies he studied I mean that's the
26:55first thing he did in jail was he
26:56studied African the language of his
26:58enemies because he thought language is
27:00the way into someone's that's the way
27:02you connect with people and
27:06he studied their history he studied
27:09their traumas you know the bower war and
27:11how they' suffered concentration I mean
27:13the whole thing he got into their
27:16suffering he also mobilized people when
27:20he got out he started meeting with the
27:21other side and building them what I call
27:23Golden Bridge a way out he was trying to
27:26help his political enem
27:28find a way out of the situation he
27:31helped write their victory speech in in
27:33other words and he helped mobilize the
27:36community which is what I call the third
27:38side so he did these three things which
27:41are go to the balcony which is detach
27:43from the situation don't react help
27:46build the other side of golden bridge
27:48make it easier for them to to make the
27:50decisions you want them to make and then
27:53mobilize this resource around of the
27:56community which was the community in
27:58South Africa blacks and whites and all
28:02others and then the worldwide Community
28:04to create a container within which even
28:08a seemingly impossible conflict could be
28:10transformed so to me the leaders and the
28:13community can work together you know
28:15Mandela he once said you know it's
28:18impossible people say it's impossible
28:20until it's done you know I was in South
28:23Africa when he was in jail and seemed
28:28ABS people thought this was going to be
28:2930 years 40 years I came back 5 years
28:31later he was the president it wasn't
28:34easy there was a lot of political
28:35violence but the conflict was
28:38transformed and if if they could do it
28:41then I believe it can be done in in the
28:43Middle East could be done and it's not
28:45just a magical leader it was the whole
28:47Community engaging in a way that works
28:50I've seen the same thing in Northern
28:52Ireland I've seen the same thing in
28:53Colombia it's our Birthright really I
28:56believe we can all do this it just it's
28:58hard work there's no question but it's
29:01possible let's take a closer look at
29:03going to the balcony watching something
29:06as a play sort of taking
29:09this detached Observer role perhaps if
29:12that's not too much of a strain of a
29:16descriptor this leads me to wonder what
29:20you have found or discovered or observed
29:27when things get heated in the midst of a
29:30negotiation now that could be you need
29:33to go to the balcony but you need some
29:35space so what do you say what do you do
29:37to create that space and equally
29:40important if the other side maybe does
29:43not have your books and does not have
29:46either the capacity or the uh eagerness
29:49to go to the balcony how do you help
29:51them go to the balcony or at least
29:53deescalate things so they don't spin out
29:55first of all I think these are all in
29:57innate human potentials this this is not
29:59you don't have to read my book you could
30:01read my book but these are innate human
30:04potentials this is our Birthright you
30:06know the stoics talk you know it's about
30:07self-mastery it's the idea that
30:09negotiation even though we think of it
30:12as trying to get the other side to do
30:14what we want them to
30:15do it starts with influencing
30:19ourselves you can't possibly influence
30:22someone else unless you can influence
30:23yourself first and human beings were
30:26reaction machines you know when a you
30:28know the saying goes when angry you will
30:30make the best speech you will ever
30:35and yeah that's a good one that happens
30:38more often than not and send the email
30:40the best email you will regret that's it
30:43you said the best email you will ever
30:44regret exactly that's it the best text
30:48the best WhatsApp whatever it is that
30:49you will ever regret and we do that all
30:52the time and we live in a very reactive
30:54age where you you just instantly you
30:56know the the temption to just to hit the
30:58send button to just like whoa okay no
31:01you know there's a save as draft on
31:03email for a reason that's the balcony
31:06button and what's the alternative I mean
31:09it's very natural for us to react you
31:11know we act especially in Conflict you
31:13know there's a lot of anger there's fear
31:15whatever it is you're quick to react but
31:17the ability to pause for a moment it's
31:19that faint gap between the stimulus in
31:21the response the ability to I I like to
31:24use the metaphor of imagining that
31:25you're negotiating on you know the
31:27negotiations taking place on a play all
31:29the characters are there part of you
31:31goes your mind goes to a mental and
31:34emotional balcony overlooking the stage
31:41suddenly keep your eyes on the prize
31:43what is most important to you and then
31:46see the big picture what can you do
31:48where's the way through this labyrinth
31:50in front of you that art of going to the
31:52balcony I found is key and you know I've
31:56learned it had to learn it over over and
31:57over you know I fall off the balcony get
32:01balcony are there rules or conditions
32:07to mitigate some of the risk of
32:11emotional spiraling and what prompts
32:14this question is a story I believe it
32:18was a Labor Management
32:20Group where in the conversation you
32:24adopted the rule that only one person
32:26could get angry at time so it seemed
32:28like each party knew they would have
32:30their turn to get really pissed off so
32:33that's it you wouldn't deal with the
32:36sort of arms race of yelling and
32:38screaming and whatever Tantrums might go
32:44aggression are there other techniques
32:48have used successfully in these types of
32:53potentially heated conversations or
32:56negotiations well the one you mentioned
32:58is a good one because it's kind of a
32:59joint rule right another is just to take
33:02frequent breaks just you know sometimes
33:05you know negotiations I remember Labor
33:06Management negotiations there was a like
33:08you know they go on for hours and hours
33:10and hours and it was kind of almost like
33:12a no one wanted to call break it was
33:14almost like an exercise in in bladder
33:16control or something I find frequent
33:19breaks breaks are time to be on the
33:21balcony you know it's that time for that
33:23in the corridor conversation that you
33:25can have with someone or with your own
33:29breaks and that's you just even even
33:32when you're dealing online just taking
33:34breaks really helpful I like to go for
33:38walks before any difficult negotiation
33:41or in the middle of it just go for a
33:43walk clear your head some people work
33:46out anything you can do to change your
33:50state so you can kind of bring your best
33:52to the negotiation rather than as often
33:55we we bring our worst you know even a
33:58simple one what I like to do is like I I
34:00learned this in a very high stakes
34:02negotiation once when the president of
34:04Venezuela was shouting at me for 30
34:08minutes Ugo Chavez I don't know if you
34:10remember him but Ugo Chavez was sh you
34:12know it was like midnight in front of
34:14his whole cabinet and and I'd been sent
34:18there to try and mediate between him and
34:20his political opposition and he said
34:24Yuri so how are things going and I said
34:26seems to me Mr President I've been
34:28talking to some of your ministers I've
34:29been talking to the opposition making
34:31some progress well progress wasn't the
34:33word he wanted to hear what do you mean
34:34progress are you a fool you're not
34:38trixo the other side is up to and he
34:41leaned into my face I could could almost
34:43feel his hot breath almost in spittle
34:45and he proceeded to shout at me and I
34:47was like oh God you know a
34:51year a year of work down the drain I'm
34:54humiliated or embarrassed in front of
34:56his whole cabinet you know you you go
34:58through all these things and then I
35:01remembered a simple technique which a
35:04friend of mine once told me which is
35:06William when you're in a tough situation
35:08pinch the palm of your hand and I said
35:10at n why why would I pinch the palm of
35:12my hand he said because it will give you
35:14some momentary pain it'll keep you alert
35:16so whatever reason I remembered at that
35:18moment pinch the palm of my hand and
35:22enough then I was able to kind of like
35:25stop for a second and ask M I was just
35:27about to think about what I was going to
35:29say in reply to him and I thought is it
35:31really going to what's my interest here
35:33my interest is in calming the situation
35:35is it really going to help the situation
35:36if I get into an argument with the
35:38president of Venezuela in front of his
35:40guys right so I bit my tongue and I
35:44proceeded to listen to him you know
35:46listen to him just like observe him like
35:49why why is he doing this he's trying to
35:50impress his cabin and so on and when you
35:53don't react there was no fuel for him
35:56for his Ang so after 15 minutes 20
36:00minutes this guy could go on for seven
36:01hours he was known for giving seven hour
36:03speeches at around 30 minutes I saw I
36:06was watching his body language and I saw
36:08his shoulders sink and he said to me in
36:11a weary tone of voice he said so
36:15Yuri what should I do well that my
36:20friends is the faint sound of a human
36:24opening and at that moment I thought you
36:27know Mr President it's December last
36:30Christmas the festivities were cancelled
36:32why not just take a break give everyone
36:35a truce you know for three weeks let
36:37everyone enjoy the the the holidays with
36:39their families and come back in January
36:41maybe everybody will be in a better mood
36:44listen well he he looked at me for a
36:46moment he was kind of startled and then
36:48he clapped me on the back and he said
36:50that's a great idea I'm going to
36:52announce that my next
36:54speech his mood had completely shifted
36:58and what I learned from that Tim was
36:59that maybe the greatest power you have
37:01in a negotiation is the power not to
37:05react it's the power to go to the
37:08instead this seems like a nice bridge to
37:13discuss and we're going to get to all
37:15sorts of specifics batas and whatnot but
37:18this is a specific which is how the
37:22different species of Silence right like
37:25how can you use silence in different
37:27ways because I remember for instance I
37:29listened to this audio book this was a
37:32hundred years ago when I was just
37:34thinking about starting my own company
37:36and I listened to this book it's an
37:38audio book it was mostly real estate
37:40focused it was called secrets of power
37:42negotiating I think it was Roger Dawson
37:44I might be getting the name wrong in any
37:46case he talked about the Flinch but the
37:49Flinch followed by silence right and
37:52very mundane maybe but certainly having
37:56spent SP a lot of time in foreign
37:59countries just looking as I look my
38:02price is automatically 20x retail right
38:04that's the starting point so sort of the
38:07Flinch and then wait but if you if you
38:09fill the void with words it doesn't have
38:12the desired effect right where they tell
38:14you the price you're like oh God it's so
38:16expensive then you just shut up and let
38:18the silence do the heavy lifting you
38:22more sophisticated example and higher
38:28what are some of the ways that people
38:30can use silence this applies to
38:32interviewing also by the way I had Cal
38:35fussman who used to write the what I
38:38learned column for Esquire magazine who
38:39interviewed Gorbachev
38:41and Muhammad Ali and all these icons he
38:45said let the silence do the work that
38:47was that was one of his tips to me what
38:50are some of the different ways that you
38:51can use silence or stories related to
38:53using silence yeah I'm a big believer in
39:01culture we tend to fill up space because
39:04we we feel like if there's a moment of
39:07pause I mean in East Asia as you know
39:08silence is appreciated
39:11and you know in an elevator if
39:14everyone's quiet everyone you know gets
39:15a little nervous but but in fact if you
39:18can just relax into the silence and
39:25negotiation when you ask for something
39:27it gives the other side a chance to
39:31think about it and maybe if you say no
39:35and you know or whatever it is you just
39:37you weaken your no if you follow it up
39:39now just let it hang in the air let them
39:44work through it because it human Minds
39:46take a little time to digest it and let
39:49the discomfort if there's any work in
39:51your favor there's no reason why you
39:57the other thing is just in just you know
39:59I have a colleague Jared keran who an
40:02MIT who's done studies of Silence just
40:05taking like negotiations they record
40:08negotiations and then they measure the
40:11amount of Silence in the negotiation the
40:13number of pauses and interestingly
40:15enough they found a correlation between
40:20silence and the the outcomes that are
40:24mutually collaborative and Co operative
40:26that actually silence actually helps you
40:29arrive at agreements that are good for
40:31both sides just because it gives people
40:33a chance to pause so silence in the
40:35sense you were talking about give give a
40:37chance for the other side to actually
40:39digest it and maybe it strengthens the
40:43persuasiveness of your
40:44argument so I absolutely agree silence
40:47is one of your very best tools in a
40:49negotiation the art of pausing the art
40:52of pausing so let's talk about the the
41:04for maybe preventing
41:07escalation or just facilitating
41:10negotiation for instance if you are
41:12asking for a raise you might talk about
41:14inflation rates and X Y and Z which
41:18ideally you're not really debatable
41:20points right if they're reasonably
41:22agreed upon facts how can you use facts
41:26in negotiations effectively and do you
41:30have any examples that people might be
41:32able to try to wrap their heads
41:35around one of the big things in
41:37negotiation is you know like negotiation
41:39about arrays for example is you want one
41:42thing that they want something else it
41:46often becomes a contest of Wills who's
41:48stronger who's going to hold out longer
41:50whatever and if it's a contest of Wills
41:53often times you know it gets emotional
41:58it gets uh you know I'm not going to
42:00give in my you know manhood is on the
42:02line or whatever it is you get into this
42:04kind of contest of of wheels and it
42:08doesn't go anywhere and it and it's high
42:10stakes and there is an alternative to
42:13that which is which is not to make it a
42:16contest of will but to say look you
42:18think that you should get paid this much
42:20I think you should get paid that much
42:21but let's look objectively at the market
42:24rate what is the market for your kinds
42:27of skills and this kind of job let's
42:29look at the average thing and suddenly
42:31it's a lot easier for people
42:34to defer to what seems to be persuasive
42:39objective standard than it is to give in
42:42no one wants to give in no one wants to
42:44give in and people will fight not to
42:47in so preparing those objective criteria
42:51persuasive and then like okay let's take
42:53a look there's this criteria there's
42:55that Criterion and then then suddenly
42:57you're in a collaborative exercise to
42:59figure out what's a fair resolution
43:02rather than in a contest of Wills where
43:04one side's going to win one side's going
43:06to lose and the loser is going to make
43:07the winner pay for it yeah this is a big
43:10deal in so many probably all cultures on
43:14some level but the whole concept of of
43:18losing face say in China diolan right to
43:22lose space this is a very big deal and
43:26PE people will not just fight not to
43:29lose space but in some cultures I mean
43:31they'll they'll take it themselves to
43:32the Grave to not lose space right it's a
43:35huge variable in terms of of
43:37consideration I'd like to ask you about
43:39so I respect in my notes Here I have it
43:42listed as the cheapest concession you
43:44can make and at face value this makes
43:49perfect sense to me my question is how
43:51do you express that respect what are
43:56uh that you have and and let's take out
44:01complex cultural differences right where
44:04it might be very different if you're in
44:08penthouse in a chairman suite at
44:10Mitsubishi than it would be in other
44:12places let's just say but in in an
44:15English-speaking environment Western
44:17environment what are some of the ways
44:19you might Express that respect and if
44:21you want to expand first on on what the
44:23what you mean by the cheapest concession
44:25then I can do that too yeah the other
44:29side's dignity may not mean much to you
44:31but it means everything to them as you
44:33just mentioned in China you know or you
44:36know East Asia where it might be their
44:40so if you can give the other
44:44side simple basic human respect I'm not
44:48talking about a lot of people confuse
44:49respect oh they've got to earn my
44:51respect no I'm talking about the respect
44:52that is everyone's Birthright by just by
44:56virtue of being a human being respect
44:58actually you know the word comes from
45:00the Latin respect to see again you know
45:03like spec isn't spectacles re isn't
45:05again spectator to see to see the human
45:10being that's there and so even if you're
45:12dealing with a hostage taker I don't
45:14care who it is you know that's what
45:18police hostage negotiators do is they
45:20give the person some respect that's the
45:23way you connect with human beings that's
45:24the currency that's the currency for
45:27actually making a connection it costs
45:29you nothing and it means everything to
45:32them that's why it's the cheapest
45:33concession you can make and maybe
45:35behaviorally to go back to the first
45:38question the easiest way to give someone
45:41respect the most basic way to give
45:43someone respect is to listen to
45:46them you know we think of negotiation as
45:49talking but successful negotiation is
45:52far more about listening than it's about
45:54talking a persuasive negotiator someone
45:57who's a persuasive listener because when
46:02someone you are seeing them you are
46:04hearing them you're tuning to them
46:06you're you're you ask them questions you
46:09know what what is it that you really
46:11want here you're you're showing interest
46:12in them that is the basic level of
46:15respect and in addition to that it gives
46:17you a lot of information about what they
46:20want so that you can more effectively
46:22influence them to arrive at something
46:23that satisfies their needs and safies
46:26yours at the same time aside from
46:31particular advice you would give to
46:33someone going into an important
46:34negotiation in terms of ways they might
46:37indicate respect well like you as you
46:41you teach you know how to learn
46:43languages very quickly learning a a
46:45little bit of their language you know
46:47the basic formalities of their language
46:50just that's a sign of respect yeah it
46:53goes a long way it goes a very long way
46:57and you know I mean just going back to
46:58Chavez for a moment the first time I met
47:00him he asked me what was my advice I
47:03said why don't you sit down and talk
47:07opposition and he said oh they're
47:10traitors you know they you know they
47:11tried to mount a couet you know they
47:13tried to kill me you know you I would
47:15never talk to them and so I said to him
47:19I understand understand you don't trust
47:21them right he said absolutely I don't
47:24said let me ask you something is there
47:26anything that they could do tomorrow
47:29morning that would be a sign of respect
47:31that would be a sign that maybe they
47:34change a little bit and maybe they were
47:36worth talking to anything that they
47:38could do he said yeah he said they own
47:41the private TV stations they could stop
47:46mono on national television and a mono
47:49is is monkey a monkey and you know he
47:54took it as a kind of like a racist
47:55insult and he even like rimed his face
47:58it's not in most places a compliment
48:00right and what I realized in that moment
48:03it's about respect he was he was feeling
48:06that intense disrespect and so that led
48:11to a whole process where we tried to
48:12negotiate a whole set of ways in which
48:14to try to deescalate the crisis what
48:17were signals of respect that the other
48:19sides could give each other that would
48:21change the atmosphere and even just
48:24having a ation about what the other side
48:27would see as respect and disrespect
48:29helped helped you know calm the
48:32situation down a little bit so we could
48:36forward now in a situation like that
48:40maybe it's not the best example but I
48:42imagine you're being sent not as an
48:44emissary but a mediator of sorts
48:46facilitator in a lot of
48:49situations how does and this is an
48:52opportunity to Define what this is but
48:55bat enough right the best alternative to
48:56a negotiated agreement how does this fit
48:59into your strategizing or thinking about
49:02circumstances and Venezuela or
49:04circumstances in any any situation that
49:10comes to mind bana is an acronym that
49:13Roger Fisher and I coined back in
49:19alternative to a negotiated
49:21agreement it's your best course of
49:24action if you cannot reach agreement
49:26it's your plan B it's like you're
49:29negotiating a job interview if you can't
49:31get this job interview you got another
49:32job interview if you can't sell to this
49:34one client maybe you have another client
49:37and it's it's your alternative and it
49:39turns out to be extremely important in
49:42negotiation because in negotiation we
49:44often make the mistake of thinking okay
49:46I want this agreement and we our focus
49:48is on the agreement but it turns out
49:50that paradoxically one of the best ways
49:53to prepare for that negotiation is to
49:56Think Through ostensible failure you
49:59know ask yourself the question before
50:01you go into the negotiation what am I
50:03going to do to satisfy my
50:06interests if I am not able to reach
50:08agreement with the other
50:09side and sometimes people don't like to
50:12go there because they well that's
50:13negative thinking it's actually
50:14alternative positive thinking it's like
50:17what's your alternative what's your
50:19batna and if you do that I mean imagine
50:21go back to the job imagine you you've
50:24got one you know next week you've got
50:25one job interview and it's it's the only
50:28one you got and you're going to be
50:31negotiating about your salary imagine
50:33how that negotiation is going to go if
50:34you have no other alternative but
50:36imagine if you take the intervening time
50:39to research what are you going to do if
50:41you don't get that job will you continue
50:43looking will you are you prepared to
50:45move sectors are you prepared to make a
50:47lateral move are you prepared to go back
50:49and get some education whatever your
50:51batna is maybe you get another job offer
50:54maybe it's not even such a great job
50:56offer but you've got something in your
50:57back pocket you're going to negotiate
50:59with more confidence because you know
51:01you have an alternative so actually
51:03having a batna in my experience makes it
51:07more likely that you can actually reach
51:09an agreement because it gives you that
51:11intangible confidence that makes all the
51:13difference totally are there any real
51:16world examples that that come to mind or
51:19other hypotheticals I was helping a
51:23client who became a very good friend of
51:25mine was a Brazilian who was in a Battle
51:29Royal with his business partner over
51:31control of the company and this was
51:33rather a large company 150,000 employees
51:36to be precise and they'd been fighting
51:39tooth and nail for like two and a half
51:41years every board meeting was just a
51:43battle and there were lawsuits and there
51:46was it got into the press the character
51:48assassinations I mean it was the worst
51:51and everyone thought it was absolutely
51:56they this fellow asked me if I would
51:58come see him and I went to see him I
51:59went to his home and and I began by
52:02asking him the first question before you
52:05get to the batner which is what do you
52:07want what are your interest you know
52:08because your bat is your best course of
52:10action for satisfying your interests so
52:14amilio what do you want and he said well
52:16I want a a whole bunch of stock here and
52:19I want an elimination of the three or
52:21non-compete clause and I want the
52:23company sports team and I want the
52:24company head quarters and he had his
52:26list just a really intelligent
52:28businessman then I said to him Bilo I
52:31understand that but tell me what do you
52:33really want and he looked at me as
52:36surprised he said what do you mean I
52:37said no I mean you're a man who seems to
52:41everything what do you really want in
52:43life what what's what's really at stake
52:47you and I don't think he'd been asked
52:49that question before was a chance for
52:51him to go to the balcony and and he
52:54finally he paused for a while there's
52:56some silence That's The Power of silence
52:59and then finally he said to me you know
53:02what I want I want Liber which in
53:07freedom I want my freedom and the way he
53:11Freedom just the tonality of it and
53:13that's what you want to do is listen for
53:15the tone it's not just the words but
53:19tone I knew I kind of struck gold
53:21because it was like deep it was like
53:23really deep inside of him M and I had
53:26read his little bit of his biography and
53:28he had been kidnapped 20 years earlier
53:30and held in a Coffin by a group of urban
53:33gorillas for for for like a week he
53:36thought he was not going to make it you
53:37know they had little air holes and they
53:39played this loud rock music and and it
53:41was only by a miracle that he was freed
53:43but Freedom really meant something to
53:46him because that's often the case we're
53:48hostages of these difficult conflicts
53:50and he and he was hostage of this
53:52conflict and he said I want freedom and
53:54then I said to him what does freedom
53:57mean to you specifically then and that's
54:00the thing you want to do once you get
54:01that interest you want to ask okay
54:03operationally specifically what does it
54:04mean he said well it's freedom to spend
54:06time with my family which is the most
54:08meaningful thing in my life and it's
54:10freedom to make the deals I love to make
54:13deals and then I asked him the batner
54:16question I said okay ailia imagine that
54:20you can't reach agreement with your
54:22business rival who's now your bitter
54:25imagine you can't we don't reach
54:28agreement is there anything you can do
54:31to advance your interest which in this
54:34case is spend more time with your family
54:37deals and there was an aha for him
54:40because he had assumed that he couldn't
54:43Advance his interest without settling
54:45this first and he had to fight this you
54:46know he was was a fighter and he was
54:48going to fight this but then no then he
54:51went you know he realized that okay yeah
54:55on the other side for the interests that
54:58matter most to me and when you realize
55:00that again it goes back to the wisdom of
55:02the stoics when you realize it's you you
55:05actually have control over the things
55:08that matter most to you not the other
55:11side he went on a vacation with his
55:13family opened up an office started to do
55:15deals that actually allowed him to
55:18relax so that in the end we were able to
55:21deal now the followup question that hops
55:24to mind for me I'm so curious
55:28is what then happened like what we don't
55:30have to get into all the specifics of
55:32the deal but I could see on one hand the
55:36possibility that he would have ultimate
55:40walkway power in the sense that he would
55:42be less likely to make certain
55:45because he feels like he can address his
55:49interests elsewhere so he could kind of
55:50hold out indefinitely feeling like he
55:52can he can manage the endurance more
55:56than the other side I can also see it
55:59going the other direction where he's
56:01less attached to it and is more likely
56:05concessions so what ended up happening I
56:08could see it I could see that
56:09realization manifesting in a number of
56:12different ways that's a really good
56:15point Tim so in this case I think it's
56:19both it both strengthened his sense of
56:21confidence that he could do it and and
56:23at one point he said to me you know
56:24maybe I'm going to have to fight this
56:25for the rest of my life and this this
56:27conflict was going to go on for at least
56:29another seven years because that's how
56:30long he was going to be chairman of the
56:32board but I think in the end it was the
56:35second thing which is he relaxed on it
56:38and I had to keep on reminding him
56:39because he would get he was very
56:40reactive and i' say what do you remember
56:42what you told me you really want is your
56:43freedom right because we get so attached
56:46she was so attached to these things in
56:50end I met with the representative of his
56:55business enemy I went I went to Paris
56:58and it was in in France and over a
57:02restaurant I met him he said come and
57:05meet me we went to lunch at the
57:08restaurant and this fellow who was a
57:11French Banker a very distinguished
57:12French Banker asked me so why are you
57:14here you know kind of because this thing
57:16hasn't been settled in two and a half
57:18years the lawyers are better and I said
57:20to him using his language French I said
57:30short and that wasn't what he was
57:32expecting and I said yeah because it's
57:34to kind of help everyone go to the
57:36balcony I said Life's too short for
57:37these conflicts in which everybody loses
57:40I mean these guys are losing their time
57:42their families are suffering the the
57:44employees are suffering from divided
57:46loyalties just think of all the losses
57:48here besides all the you know all the
57:50money going to lawyers and everything so
57:53so what what would you do and I said
57:56well if we could just agree for both of
57:58our friends you know I made it it wasn't
58:02like we were adversaries is most like
58:04let's help our friends settle this you
58:06know you just reframe the situation both
58:09of our friends want their freedom to go
58:11on with their lives you know freedom
58:12from this dispute and they both want
58:14their dignity they can't afford to be
58:16seen as you know losing yeah and will
58:20question to the extent that you can
58:22describe it so the could you explain the
58:25dynamic just so I have some
58:27understandings you've got Mia the
58:29chairman and then there's somebody else
58:31who's also at odds principal
58:34shareholder the French entrepreneur was
58:37the principal shareholder and there had
58:39been an agreement that at some point
58:41control would shift to him and they were
58:43fighting over control over this
58:46company and this was a company that had
58:49been founded by ailio my my friend and
58:52client with his father was was Latin
58:55America's largest retailer was a
58:56supermarket chain got it and amelo
58:59brought you in to try that he brought me
59:02in actually his daughter and wife who
59:05were very concerned brought me
59:08in how often does that happen I would
59:10imag side yeah yeah I would imagine you
59:12get brought in by the third
59:14side not infrequently I would imagine
59:17that's it the third side turns out to be
59:19key you know it's like the people around
59:21the conflict who have a stake were being
59:25yeah you know want to find some way
59:27to to transform it I didn't mean to
59:30interrupt so you're saying you
59:33said life is too short let's talk about
59:36our friends let's talk about our friends
59:39and if we can give them both freedom and
59:42dignity then maybe there's a chance and
59:44he just he looked at me and we had a
59:46very nice lunch little French meal and
59:49then about an hour later I got a call he
59:52had I gave him my number he said when
59:53are you going back to to America I said
59:55I'm going back tomorrow morning I got a
59:57call about an hour later he said do you
01:00:01stay tomorrow so that we could meet and
01:00:03I said sure and so I went to see him in
01:00:05his office and we spent 45 minutes in
01:00:08his office trying to figure out this
01:00:10very complicated deal what it would mean
01:00:12to give each man freedom and dignity you
01:00:16know so that no one could be seen to
01:00:18lose in 45 minutes we came up with a
01:00:20little formula on the it was just very
01:00:22simple on on the page there that was a
01:00:25Tuesday by Friday we had both men in a
01:00:29law office in s Paulo Brazil signing an
01:00:32agreement wow in which that is fast they
01:00:36ended it they we had a joint statement
01:00:39where they wished Each Other Well I
01:00:42accompanied both men
01:00:44to talk to the leaders of the company to
01:00:47explain to them Executives of why they'd
01:00:49done this there was a press conference
01:00:51and it was over and I asked ailio
01:00:55later I said how do you feel he said
01:00:57well I got everything I wanted he even
01:00:59got you know the things he wanted he
01:01:00said but the most important thing is I
01:01:03got my life back yeah lawsuits seldom
01:01:07seldom winners all
01:01:09around and even the other guy the other
01:01:11guy was very happy too so that's the
01:01:13amazing thing is that it seems like it's
01:01:15an impossible situation seems like and
01:01:18it but by treating it as a win-lose
01:01:20situation there is no way out but then
01:01:23looking for those Poss posibilities
01:01:24there was a way in which both sides
01:01:28could win could benefit that you know
01:01:30could get their freedom and their
01:01:31dignity and the community the third side
01:01:33actually the families and the and the
01:01:35company could also benefit so it was a
01:01:37classic it was a win win win a win for
01:01:40for everybody uh what is a trust menu
01:01:44and how do you construct a trust menu
01:01:46but what is a trust menu trust is one of
01:01:49those things which is so important in
01:01:51negotiation I mean you know you're
01:01:54always looking I know on the show for
01:01:56efficiency you know like how do you can
01:01:57you do something more efficiently well
01:02:00negotiation what creates the greatest
01:02:04negotiation is trust you know Warren
01:02:07Buffett who I've had the pleasure of
01:02:09knowing a little bit he once had a
01:02:14with a partner a business partner
01:02:18Murphy over the buying ABC the
01:02:22television network this is many years
01:02:23ago and Buffett was going to put up $500
01:02:25million looked like the deal was going
01:02:27through so Murphy called up cap cities
01:02:30USA called up Buffett and said Warren
01:02:32the deal's going through what are the
01:02:34terms just on the phone and Buffett said
01:02:37well murf you probably thought about it
01:02:40have what do you think the terms should
01:02:43be and Murphy just set out the terms
01:02:45Buffett said fine end of negotiation 30
01:02:48seconds $500 million negotiation now it
01:02:52turned out that it was a very good deal
01:02:55for both sides ABC was later sold to
01:02:57Disney but the trick was or the secret
01:03:01was that both men trusted each other
01:03:04such that they knew that it didn't
01:03:05matter who proposed the thing they knew
01:03:08that it would be fair for both sides
01:03:09they knew they they had that degree of
01:03:11trust and so they could operate at the
01:03:14Speed Of Trust now that high degree of
01:03:17efficiency otherwise it might take six
01:03:19months or it might take might never
01:03:20happen so that's the coin of the realm
01:03:24in negotiation question is what do you
01:03:28do if you don't have trust and that's
01:03:29where a trust menu comes
01:03:31in okay so so let's say we're not
01:03:34starting with that level of trust yeah
01:03:37so oftentimes you're dealing with high
01:03:39levels of distrust right yeah right so
01:03:42the question is how do you get out of
01:03:45distrust at least establish some working
01:03:47trust you might not you know be the
01:03:49closest of friends or whatever it is but
01:03:52because it's it's best to work with
01:03:53people with whom you you can you know
01:03:55have high trust but often times that's
01:03:59case going back to just the example with
01:04:02with Chavez when he told me for example
01:04:05that they could stop calling me a monkey
01:04:09Television I said okay I know you don't
01:04:12want to meet with him but maybe we can
01:04:14build a trust menu so the next night he
01:04:17delegated his right-hand person who was
01:04:19his minister of interior to meet with me
01:04:23who couldn't afford to meet be seen to
01:04:24meet with the opposition so I was just
01:04:26staying in a bed and breakfast of pada
01:04:28in the middle of kakas and there was a
01:04:30garden and 11 o'clock at night the
01:04:32minister shows up I put him on my
01:04:34balcony and then in the garden I had
01:04:37some couple of the opposition figures
01:04:40and my colleague Francisco and I
01:04:42shuttled back and forth all night trying
01:04:45to construct a trust menu in other words
01:04:48pre-arranged set of
01:04:51signals steps that each side could take
01:04:53that we're small enough and it's like
01:04:57each side these are the kinds of things
01:04:59that would send us a signal of respect
01:05:01that you know we can you can be trusted
01:05:03and then one person you know like Chavez
01:05:08picks one thing off that item and says
01:05:10like okay he he made a speech the next
01:05:12week say you know which is something the
01:05:14opposition asked him to do saying to the
01:05:16people do not physically assault or
01:05:20harass the media when they're covering
01:05:22rallies you know those kinds of things
01:05:24and he did it so then they did one thing
01:05:27that he had asked for on his list and
01:05:29then he did one thing and you kind of
01:05:31like it's like little signals you send
01:05:33one signal the other person sends
01:05:34another signal send one signal another
01:05:36signal these are pre-arranged pre-
01:05:38orchestrated and their ways of beginning
01:05:42rebuild trust or confidence that you can
01:05:45actually depend on the other such that
01:05:46you might then be willing to sit down
01:05:48together makes perfect
01:05:51sense you mentioned Warren Buffet so I'm
01:05:54going to segue to war Buffett here and
01:06:00this relates to an interest that I have
01:06:04a keen interest in saying no different
01:06:06ways of saying no the importance of
01:06:08saying no how to say
01:06:10no and this is from an interview uh that
01:06:14you did some time ago but it talks about
01:06:17your meeting waren Buffett for breakfast
01:06:19and at one point this is quoting he
01:06:20confided to me the secret to creating
01:06:22his fortune lay in the ability to say no
01:06:24this is now quoting Buffet quote I sit
01:06:27there all day and look at investment
01:06:28proposals I say no no no no no no no
01:06:31until I see one that is exactly what I'm
01:06:32looking for then I say yes all I have to
01:06:34do is say yes a few times in my life and
01:06:39fortune so I'd love
01:06:42to hear perhaps how you approach no and
01:06:46there are different ways to present no
01:06:49the positive no as one
01:06:52example and just have how you've learned
01:06:54to think about no because there's
01:06:57getting to yes and part of the reason
01:07:00found getting past no so seductive is
01:07:03that when I had my first job out of
01:07:06college I was technical sales selling
01:07:09storage area networks to CTO CEOs Etc or
01:07:12attempting to these are seven figure
01:07:17and almost inevitably the first answer
01:07:21no so I I found the title of the book
01:07:24very compelling how do you think about
01:07:26no I know that this has been important
01:07:28in your life and I suppose in most lives
01:07:30but how would you suggest people think
01:07:32about no and then maybe you can give an
01:07:34example of how to deliver a no in a
01:07:38skillful way back to that breakfast
01:07:42meeting with Warren Buffett because I
01:07:45Roger Fisher and I and Bruce bat had
01:07:47just worked on getting to yes and he
01:07:51said yes is really good word he said but
01:07:53in my life of business you don't know
01:07:56important and it really stayed with me
01:07:59it stayed with me and you know then I
01:08:01wrote you know getting past no because
01:08:03people people said asked about getting
01:08:06yes yeah but what if the other side says
01:08:07no so that was the thing but then I
01:08:10thought there's a Trilogy here there's a
01:08:13third book here which is really to do
01:08:14justice to no because no is a really
01:08:17important word Buffett is absolutely
01:08:19right it's almost like we have a right
01:08:21arm and a left arm the two most basic
01:08:24words in the language are yes and no you
01:08:27know Pythagoras said you know the two
01:08:30words that are the simplest words in the
01:08:32language yes and no are the are the most
01:08:36complicated they deserve the most study
01:08:39you know and and that's true my whole
01:08:41life has been in some ways a study of
01:08:42the words yes and no and I I thought and
01:08:46also I I noticed that I had some
01:08:47difficulty sometimes saying no so I
01:08:49thought I always like to write about
01:08:51what I'm trying to learn you know that's
01:08:53the best way to learn about it totally
01:08:55and so I did some real deep dive into it
01:08:58and in the end I came up with what I
01:09:02felt was an effective way to say no
01:09:05which is what I call positive no and
01:09:07it's like a sandwich a positive no
01:09:12starts with a yes you know it's a yes no
01:09:16yes you know no is is the meat in the
01:09:19middle and it starts with a yes and the
01:09:22yes is to what is that deep your deep
01:09:26interest your deep strategy you're
01:09:27you're saying no not just to say no but
01:09:30to say yes to something deeper and
01:09:32that's what Buffett was saying to me he
01:09:33was saying that in order to land on the
01:09:36right deal that yes to the right deal I
01:09:39have to say no to a thousand deals that
01:09:40are not quite right and that's how I
01:09:42make my fortune so it all starts with
01:09:45the Yes actually the the effect of no
01:09:47starts with a yes it's like like the
01:09:49roots of a tree you know if your boss is
01:09:52asking you to work over the weekend you
01:09:58say thank you I actually have a re I
01:10:04have a I'm going to a wedding this
01:10:05weekend long promise whatever it is I'm
01:10:09not able to work this weekend so it
01:10:10starts with a yes to what's important to
01:10:13you therefore I'm not able to work with
01:10:15the weekend and then it doesn't end
01:10:17there immediately goes to a yes on the
01:10:19other side and there this is what I can
01:10:21do to try and solve the boss's problem I
01:10:23can work more during the week I can get
01:10:26Juan and Maria to to work with me to try
01:10:30to get it done but the yes on the other
01:10:33side is some kind of either referral
01:10:36solution relationship some kind of uh
01:10:40way to address the other side that is
01:10:43not a way of backing away doesn't
01:10:45undermine the no it's just another
01:10:47offers them another thing so it's a yes
01:10:50no yes the no in between is calm it's
01:10:53not an angry no it's calm matter of fact
01:10:57strong no no means no what makes it
01:11:01easier for people to hear it is the yes
01:11:04that precedes it so they take it not as
01:11:05a personal challenge to the boss's
01:11:07Authority they understand why you're
01:11:09saying no and then it's followed by a
01:11:13yes on the other side which might be I
01:11:15look forward to doing business with you
01:11:17next time whatever it is but it's a
01:11:19there's a positive note that you end on
01:11:22okay that was going to be my followup
01:11:23question about the the yes at the end
01:11:25because I could see this is something
01:11:28I've been thinking a lot about and
01:11:29practicing from trying to refine for
01:11:33decade plus now which is how to say no
01:11:37and do so in a way that is sustainable
01:11:40in other words if you have a lot of
01:11:42incoming if you have a lot of inbound
01:11:45people asking you
01:11:47to who knows could be any number of
01:11:50things host a charity fundraiser come
01:11:54XYZ invest in this and that help my
01:11:58brothers GoFundMe
01:12:01campaign because he's trying to help
01:12:02people with ALS whatever it might be
01:12:04there could be a million of these coming
01:12:06in and I could imagine if your closing
01:12:08yes is sort of a contingency commitment
01:12:11that those things would really
01:12:13snowball absolutely right so there are
01:12:16times you just have to say here's my
01:12:18positive reason why therefore I cannot
01:12:22yes what are some ways that you like to
01:12:25close on a positive note is there any
01:12:29language that that you have found just
01:12:31to be ready from the quiver go-to
01:12:35language for yourself or for others I
01:12:38mean one is you want to make sure that
01:12:42the no is not taken personally because
01:12:45often times people don't like to hear
01:12:46the word no very often and that makes it
01:12:49hard to deliver for us so you could say
01:12:52look my policy is is I don't do this you
01:12:55know I'm taking us ble you know you put
01:12:57a very strong yes in the ground that
01:12:59they understand that the no is nothing
01:13:01personal right and then the yes on the
01:13:03other side might just be I love you you
01:13:07know to your brother it's so the the
01:13:09last note is not no it's yes but it
01:13:13could just be a yes to the relationship
01:13:15you know I wish you much success with
01:13:17the fundraiser yeah you don't have to
01:13:20come up with a contingency plan for
01:13:22everyone no don't even think about that
01:13:24but if a coworker asks you for help you
01:13:27know you could say look I've got an
01:13:30important work priority boss has asked
01:13:32me to do so I can't help you but so and
01:13:35so might be able to help you or you know
01:13:37I can't help you now but in three weeks
01:13:39I could help you and that but you got to
01:13:40be careful got to be absolutely right if
01:13:42you're true right right got to be really
01:13:45careful about that you don't want to
01:13:48like leave a door open that you're going
01:13:50later but in some case it's just like a
01:13:55pleasant a pleasant kind of relationship
01:13:59affirming wishing you
01:14:03success godp speed yeah yeah uh there's
01:14:06one that I received I don't want to Mis
01:14:09attribute it but I I want to try to give
01:14:11attribution I think he was Guy Kawasaki
01:14:13a million years ago who is very welln he
01:14:16was known as an evangelist from Apple
01:14:18computer and he gone on to do Angel
01:14:21Investing and many other things he
01:14:22written some great books
01:14:24and I asked him for something I can't
01:14:26remember what it was this is back when I
01:14:28was you know just cutting my teeth early
01:14:31days just moved to
01:14:33California and he replied and Guy
01:14:38apologized if this wasn't you but it's a
01:14:39good line either way it was basically a
01:14:42very short like really sorry I can't
01:14:44make this work like I'll raise a glass
01:14:46from the side lines with an exclamation
01:14:48point and that was it you know but it it
01:14:51was delivered in such a way that it was
01:14:53it was less bruising
01:14:55than it could have been otherwise right
01:14:58I that that strikes me as a good good
01:15:00example that's it the yes on the other
01:15:02side is an investment in relationship
01:15:05it's a it's a sign of
01:15:06respect yeah that's that's probably a
01:15:08helpful way for me to think about it too
01:15:11how can you really underscore respect in
01:15:15part possible the new book how we
01:15:19survive and thrive in an age of conflict
01:15:21what was the impetus or the reasons
01:15:23behind wanting to write this book our
01:15:26friend Jim cullins oh yeah all right say
01:15:30more please so what happened
01:15:33was five years ago I went for a hike
01:15:36with Jim a mountain hike Lion's Lair was
01:15:40the name I was gon to say that can mean
01:15:42a lot of things he's a pretty aggressive
01:15:43rock climber he is he is he's he's great
01:15:48and uh we were and he likes to ask good
01:15:50questions as you know and I do so we
01:15:53were hiking up there it was the end of
01:15:55November Blue Sky Colorado and and he
01:16:00turns to me and he says William he said
01:16:03do you think you could sum up everything
01:16:06you've learned in your life in one
01:16:11sentence everything you've learned about
01:16:13negotiation in one sentence that could
01:16:14be of use to us in these tumultuous
01:16:18MH and I looked at him and then he he
01:16:22said to me with a twinkle in I said well
01:16:23you know Darwin could you know and I
01:16:25could give you the exact sentence you
01:16:28know on page 300 and so of the Origin of
01:16:30Species where he sums up the entire
01:16:34evolution and I've always I love
01:16:38challenges and I love Simplicity I'm
01:16:40always trying like how do you synthesize
01:16:42something down so I took his Challenge
01:16:44and I went back and thought about it and
01:16:47and our next hike I talked it through I
01:16:49said you know you know if I had to do it
01:16:51in one sentence I went back I've always
01:16:53loved the Latin phrase Omni trium
01:16:58means everything that's in threes is
01:17:00perfect you know there's something about
01:17:01three so I was trying to think of what
01:17:02are the three things that I would pass
01:17:05on for these difficult times of the
01:17:07things that I've learned the three most
01:17:10basic things that hang together is one
01:17:12know and so I tried it out on him and
01:17:16then he said okay now you've got the
01:17:18sentence write the
01:17:20book and that's the origin
01:17:23possible well I can't let that go as a
01:17:26cliffhanger what was the sentence what
01:17:28did you start with so the sentence was
01:17:30when you're taking these impossible
01:17:32conflicts that we're facing now I mean
01:17:33the the world's getting so disrupted
01:17:35whether you mentioned the Middle East
01:17:36Ukraine the US polarization whatever it
01:17:39is in business there's so many conflicts
01:17:41going on it's like seems to be
01:17:43polarizing paralyzing us poisoning us so
01:17:46the first thing I said the path of
01:17:48possible the first thing is go to the
01:17:51balcony it all starts with us you got to
01:17:54influence yourself first you got to go
01:17:57to the balcony so you can see the larger
01:18:00picture you know and we were hiking up I
01:18:02said you know it's that balcony view
01:18:03that you can see that huge view of
01:18:05looking down at the valley it's an
01:18:07inside job it's self-mastery that's
01:18:10where it begins so go to the balcony was
01:18:12number one and then once you've
01:18:15influenced yourself then you can
01:18:16influence the other and then and then I
01:18:18thought about going back to getting past
01:18:20snow building a golden bridge which is
01:18:24making it as easy as possible for the
01:18:27other side to do what you want them to
01:18:28do by listening by being creative by
01:18:31being attract attracting by writing
01:18:33their victory speech you know all of
01:18:35those things go into into building a
01:18:37golden bridge it's it actually it's a
01:18:40phrase that comes from sunu the Art of
01:18:41War which is leave them a way out and I
01:18:45I frame it positively is where's the way
01:18:48forward that that actually it's not you
01:18:52got to be audacious it's not just an
01:18:53ordinary Bridge it's a golden bridge
01:18:55it's attractive it's persuasive you've
01:18:57thought through what really they want
01:18:59what their fears are and so on so you've
01:19:01really built them that golden bridge so
01:19:03influence yourself to influence the
01:19:04other and then the third part of the
01:19:06whole is influence the whole which is
01:19:10take the third side which is remember
01:19:14because we in negotiation in Conflict we
01:19:16always tend to reduce everything to two
01:19:18sides you know it's uh it's labor
01:19:20against management it's Sal against
01:19:23manufacturing it's husband against wife
01:19:26it's the Arabs against Israelis there's
01:19:28always a third side which is a
01:19:30surrounding Community the people around
01:19:33who affected by it and that's a great
01:19:35power if you can harness it so taking
01:19:37the third side to the side of the whole
01:19:40and you know I think that's our most
01:19:43ancestral our oldest human Heritage for
01:19:45dealing with conflict is using the third
01:19:47side I've seen it in so many indigenous
01:19:49cultures and we we have to reinvent it
01:19:50today so my sence was the path the
01:19:55possible is to go to the
01:19:58balcony build a golden bridge and take
01:20:04side influence yourself influence the
01:20:07other influence the whole all right I
01:20:10love every aspect of that and I want to
01:20:12hone in on one and this is sort of a
01:20:15meta question that I wanted to explore
01:20:18with you related to your comment on the
01:20:23my experience and I'm by I'm by no means
01:20:26a master negotiator but I've done a fair
01:20:28amount just all the stuff that I've done
01:20:31we all have we all negotiate every day
01:20:32we all negotiate my experience has been
01:20:34that the better you get at
01:20:37negotiating and a core component of is
01:20:41creativity the more you can
01:20:45harness seeing option C instead of just
01:20:48a versus B for yourself not just for
01:20:52Mutual gain but actually in your own
01:20:54decisions as well so I I wanted
01:20:57to ask you about uh inventing creative
01:21:01options finding creative options could
01:21:04be for Mutual gain could be for personal
01:21:06Direction and I'd love to hear if you're
01:21:09open to an example of something in the
01:21:12negotiating world and then if you have
01:21:14one an example from
01:21:16your personal life or individual life
01:21:20where similar techniques or lenses
01:21:23helped you to see something that maybe
01:21:26wouldn't have been
01:21:27obvious in any situation I always think
01:21:29about it you know your negotiating
01:21:31imagine that you're negotiating
01:21:32something with someone there's a pile of
01:21:34gold on the table and that gold
01:21:36represents the amount of gain potential
01:21:40gain that lies in whatever deal you can
01:21:43make or whatever relationship you can
01:21:44create well so often what you find is
01:21:48that people walk away from the table
01:21:50either without a deal you know know they
01:21:53leave all that gold on the table
01:21:56or they walk away just taking away part
01:21:58of the gold so the question is how do
01:22:00you get the how do you get all the gold
01:22:02and the answer is by using our
01:22:04creativity tapping to our innate
01:22:08creativity there's a part of our brain
01:22:11that judges and evaluates that you know
01:22:13like you we've all been in meetings
01:22:15where you get these killer phrases like
01:22:16you know you raise an idea and they say
01:22:18oh we've done that before or we've never
01:22:20done that before or that won't work or
01:22:22that's a craziest idea whatever it is
01:22:25yeah after that no more creative ideas
01:22:26come out of that meeting so our ability
01:22:29to invent means separating the the
01:22:32cognitive process from evaluating which
01:22:34is really important from the cognitive
01:22:36process of inventing of creating and you
01:22:40know that's the whole essence of
01:22:41brainstorming which is you have one
01:22:43Golden Rule which is no criticism was
01:22:46allowed so you try to come up with as
01:22:47many ideas as possible and then after
01:22:49you get all the ideas out then you can
01:22:52start to criticize and develop and
01:22:53improve them but if you try to do both
01:22:56at the same time you find you don't get
01:22:57very far so you can do that like for
01:23:01example if I go back you said you know
01:23:03an example from the negotiation world if
01:23:07to my friend ailio and that particular
01:23:15was you know was freedom and dignity you
01:23:18know for dignity we had to figure out a
01:23:24no one could really tell who won because
01:23:27you know like for example threeyear
01:23:29non-compete they were tangling around is
01:23:31it going to be two years half a year
01:23:35whatever it is how much it would be for
01:23:36each each thing and we had to just have
01:23:40no numbers right so I said no look
01:23:42Freedom means zero non-compete because
01:23:45that's what Freedom means but it's just
01:23:47like so that there's no numbers and it's
01:23:49just it just disappeared or for example
01:23:52the stock you know what was the discount
01:23:54no it was going to be one voting stock
01:23:56for one other stock so again so that
01:23:59analysts could not tell who won there
01:24:02was we we tried to remove numbers from
01:24:03it what about seeing creative
01:24:07options outside of negotiation for for
01:24:11yourself has it translated in that way
01:24:13for you well for example right now I'm
01:24:16thinking of taking a
01:24:18sabatical and I think okay so okay
01:24:23what would I do on a sabatical be
01:24:25creative like like should I learn
01:24:27something new should I learn a new
01:24:29language should I should I go off on a
01:24:31hike a pilgrimage walking somewhere you
01:24:34know I take out a piece of paper and I
01:24:36try to write down things but even better
01:24:37what I love to do for creativity is I go
01:24:39for walks and or hikes because in nature
01:24:42somehow when you see beauty and
01:24:44particularly you get these Vistas I find
01:24:47it enhances creativity and then I ask
01:24:50friends what would you do just
01:24:51investigate it the essential thing of
01:24:53creativity is come up with a lot of
01:24:56possibilities and then start to winnow
01:24:59it down but don't just like hone in on
01:25:02one because the best way to make
01:25:04decisions is to have a lot of options
01:25:07and then you can start to introduce
01:25:08criteria to try and figure out which one
01:25:10will satisfy you the best so I can't
01:25:14resist the temptation
01:25:16to ask about your exercise and self-care
01:25:21routines this is going to seem like a
01:25:23very non Seer but you mentioned the
01:25:26hiking and if you don't mind me asking
01:25:28what what is your current age 70 just
01:25:31turn 70 all right so you do not look
01:25:34remotely close to 70 and I don't know
01:25:37how much of that is just out of the box
01:25:39Powerball winner of genetics versus
01:25:42other things I have no idea maybe it's
01:25:44an amazing skincare routine I don't know
01:25:46but you you seem to be in very very good
01:25:49shape what are some of your non
01:25:52negotiable or ideal self-care routines
01:25:57what do you do to to stay kind of
01:26:02fit the first thing which I've already
01:26:09walking I'm an anthropologist by
01:26:11training and walking is what made us
01:26:14human our ancestors walked all the time
01:26:17I me we were nomadic you know hunters
01:26:19and gatherers for 99% of our time so I I
01:26:23love to walk I mean and I love to live
01:26:27in a beautiful place nature if I can but
01:26:30if I'm in a you know if I'm in a city
01:26:31you know I walk in a park or whatever
01:26:33but but there's something about or you
01:26:35just walk down the street but I love
01:26:38walking and I love hiking climbing
01:26:41mountains and I do that every single day
01:26:44religiously and it doesn't even have to
01:26:46be it's like ingrained it's not even
01:26:49doesn't even take a lot of discipline
01:26:50because walking hiking you know I think
01:26:54of the satisfaction that it brings
01:26:56immedi it it not only obviously brings
01:26:59physical fitness because it's really
01:27:02good for you just as as a thing but
01:27:05emotionally it helps me go to the
01:27:08balcony it calms me down it lowers the
01:27:12level intellectually mentally it leads
01:27:15to creativity it's where I do my best
01:27:17ideas it's I I I walk all my books you
01:27:21know I you know that's where the ideas
01:27:23often come from and you mean that you
01:27:25ideate on your book when you're walking
01:27:28yeah I ideate that's what I mean are you
01:27:29recording anything I do I do record I do
01:27:32record I used to have little Post-its I
01:27:34used to write on those things sounds
01:27:36more labor intensive now I just record
01:27:39record because things come it's like
01:27:42it's it's quite amazing this creativity
01:27:44is like you listen you tune in you're
01:27:49know Beauty inspires I find beauty
01:27:53especially you know I work in a lot of
01:27:55difficult heart-wrenching conflicts
01:27:57beauty is kind of like a balm it's it
01:28:00regulates nous system and then the last
01:28:02thing of course it does is it has a
01:28:04spiritual level which is like Beauty
01:28:05it's like Wonder awe and so what I find
01:28:09is walking actually covers the bases and
01:28:11so that's my foundation and then of
01:28:15course I try to I do some little weights
01:28:19and I do some yoga or some stretching
01:28:22those I've added on I realize and I
01:28:24experiment with those over the years but
01:28:26the foundation of it is I hope to walk
01:28:30to the day that I die that's my dream
01:28:33how much walking generally are you doing
01:28:35is it an hour a day is it two hours a
01:28:37day is it somewhere in between what does
01:28:39it what does it look like when when do
01:28:40you go for your walks I know this is
01:28:42getting very uh nitpicky but I'm curious
01:28:45well I go for a walk whenever I can but
01:28:49I usually walk first thing in the
01:28:53I just I like to go for a hike I you
01:28:56know I have my favorite hikes especially
01:28:59ones that kind of get me out alone and
01:29:02where people aren't around there walk
01:29:05where I you know I always find my
01:29:06favorite hike of like a
01:29:08canyon a stream or just something it's
01:29:11like a little Zen Rock
01:29:13Garden effect just lends itself to more
01:29:17creativity I also walk with friends
01:29:20later on I try to do my meetings you
01:29:23know someone wants to meet with me let's
01:29:25go for a walk I live a lake we walk
01:29:29lake and so for me you know a three-
01:29:32walk day would be great so I walk
01:29:38say an hour and a half and
01:29:42maybe could be sometimes as much as
01:29:45three hours a day or whatever it is or
01:29:47it could be even longer speaking of the
01:29:49Middle East I I a crazy idea 20 years
01:29:54of who walks why they fight so I I had
01:29:57an idea of like creating a walking trail
01:30:00through the Middle East and it's 20
01:30:02years and it's been a lifelong hobby
01:30:05passion but it's called the Abraham
01:30:06paath and it's long distance path where
01:30:08we've developed maybe about at this
01:30:09point about 1500 miles of trails and to
01:30:13walk because long I said this is you
01:30:15know hundred-year project but it's kind
01:30:17of it's just to get people walking
01:30:20because when you walk you talk you talk
01:30:23differently you know you can work out
01:30:25conflicts while you walk because you
01:30:28know what's interesting you're walking
01:30:29you're you're side by side facing a
01:30:31common Direction and that's the
01:30:33direction you want to go in negotiation
01:30:35side by side trying to solve a problem
01:30:38you've got a horizon there yeah suppose
01:30:42pugilistic sitting across a table facing
01:30:45each other like two Predators it's a
01:30:47different vibe there's a reason why
01:30:49negotiation you know especially
01:30:50interational negotiations they talk
01:30:52about walks in the woods you know
01:30:54oftentimes that's where breakthroughs
01:30:55come is when the negotiators go for a
01:30:57walk in the woods I have found similarly
01:31:01the more I walk the better I do
01:31:04and I have thought often
01:31:07about how what makes us human on so many
01:31:10levels is walking lots of walking it's
01:31:15true you know by walking by pedal that's
01:31:18what allowed our brains to to to expand
01:31:21so you know walking made us human you're
01:31:23absolutely right I'd like to if if
01:31:26you're open to it discuss a little
01:31:32this what seems to be a core competency
01:31:36in negotiation but in life in general I
01:31:38mean life is kind of a whole string of
01:31:40different negotiations whether it's with
01:31:41yourself or with other
01:31:43people uh and that is under uncovering
01:31:47underlying interests because this like
01:31:49what people ask for versus what they
01:31:52they actually want slash
01:31:56need as the the older I get the
01:32:00more continually amazed I am at how how
01:32:05different those two sets can be right
01:32:08like the cover story of what people say
01:32:10they want versus what will actually make
01:32:12them happy and and sometimes they don't
01:32:14know it takes some detective work to
01:32:17really uncover it could you give it
01:32:19another example of
01:32:24interests because I remember for
01:32:26instance and I'm I'm really pulling this
01:32:29from a faulty memory but this example I
01:32:33don't know if it was in one of your
01:32:34books or maybe somebody told me about it
01:32:36but there was a real estate developer
01:32:38who wanted to buy this land to develop a
01:32:40shopping center something like that and
01:32:42there was this farmer or someone who
01:32:43owned the property and he didn't want to
01:32:46sell and it went on and on and on and
01:32:48seemed to be intractable and it came
01:32:49down to ultimately he was afraid to be
01:32:51forgotten and they were like what if we
01:32:52put a statue up right in the center of
01:32:55the shopping center that basically would
01:32:59last forever and sort of assure your
01:33:02legacy and he was like great and then
01:33:03they did the deal right but they were
01:33:06stuck in all the surface level stuff for
01:33:09a long time prior to that are there any
01:33:12stories that that that come to mind
01:33:14about uncovering interests not just
01:33:18positions I can't tell you how many
01:33:20stories I've heard like that you know
01:33:21like where it just turns out to be
01:33:23something simple you know I go back to
01:33:25an example from years ago I was invited
01:33:30in as a mediator between a separatist
01:33:34group in Indonesia that have been
01:33:36fighting for 25 years for their
01:33:38independence from
01:33:40Indonesia thousands of people deed and I
01:33:44meeting the head of the gorilla group
01:33:47and the leaders and so on in
01:33:52we were about to meet with the foreign
01:33:54minister of Indonesia the next day but I
01:33:56I began by asking them
01:33:58so I understand your position it's
01:34:03but but if I may why do you want
01:34:07independence what's your
01:34:10interest and there was this
01:34:13long silence like it struggled with it
01:34:15what do you mean Independence it's like
01:34:18it's self it's self-evident we want
01:34:20independence I said but
01:34:22why do you want independence and they
01:34:25struggled with it for a long time and I
01:34:27finally said okay so is it you want you
01:34:31want your own like place in the UN is it
01:34:35because you want political autonomy the
01:34:37ability to have your own Parliament and
01:34:39run things is it be you know is it
01:34:42economic you want control over your
01:34:44natural resources is it cultural do you
01:34:46want your kids to go to school in your
01:34:48own language and we started to to unpack
01:34:51attack it and the reason why it was so
01:34:54important because you know it's just
01:34:56struck me here they've been fighting for
01:34:5825 years thousands of people dead and
01:35:01they knew what their position was but
01:35:03they hadn't really thought through what
01:35:04their strategic interests were and
01:35:06prioritized them and the reason why that
01:35:08was so important was because of batna
01:35:10their best alternative of negotiate
01:35:12agreement was to continue the war
01:35:15and and I said to them are you going to
01:35:17win this war they said oh the Indonesian
01:35:22stronger you know 10 years we'll still
01:35:24be fighting this war and I said is there
01:35:27any way that you can pursue your
01:35:31interests without even giving up your
01:35:35Independence is there any way you can
01:35:37meet your interest in autonomy and
01:35:38control over natural resources and so on
01:35:41and that began a whole conversation with
01:35:43them they went back into their movement
01:35:45for for a couple years and lo and behold
01:35:47a few years later after that that
01:35:50tsunami they came back and and they
01:35:51negotiated an agreement with the
01:35:54Indonesian government which gave them
01:35:55autonomy control of their natural
01:35:57resources kids couldn't go to school in
01:35:59their own language they could practice
01:36:00their own religion you know everything
01:36:03and and there was an election and the
01:36:06and the governor and the vice Governor
01:36:08came from this Independence Movement so
01:36:10they got they Advanced their interests
01:36:12without surrendering their ultimate
01:36:14aspiration but they moved it forward and
01:36:17that to me just showed just the enormous
01:36:19value of always digging behind positions
01:36:22because we're we're like that we've got
01:36:24our position it become self-evident but
01:36:26often times we know our position but we
01:36:28don't know what our interests are and so
01:36:30we can't you know we missed a chance to
01:36:32advance our interests yeah I was just
01:36:34thinking as you were telling that story
01:36:35that the longer something has persisted
01:36:38whether it's a grudge against your
01:36:39parents or some Strife with your
01:36:45significant other or 25e conflict the
01:36:50interests may have been clear in the
01:36:52beginning but somewhere along the line
01:36:54they got replaced with the position
01:36:58right and then it becomes this faulty
01:37:01proxy where it's like well it's
01:37:02self-evident and it's like well hold on
01:37:07self-evident it's like the label of the
01:37:09thing but not the thing or it's it's I
01:37:12can see how the longer something has
01:37:15lasted the more likely Perhaps it is
01:37:18that the interests have been lost along
01:37:21the way even if they were extremely
01:37:24clear at some point in getting yes we
01:37:26told the story about these two sisters
01:37:28quarreling about an orange and they cor
01:37:30about the orange and finally they cut
01:37:31the orange in half and one sister takes
01:37:33her half and peels it and uses the the
01:37:37half a peel for baking a cake and the
01:37:39other sister takes her half peels it and
01:37:41eats the half of the fruit and they end
01:37:43up with half a peel for one and a half a
01:37:45fruit for the other when cuz their
01:37:48position was the orange but if they'
01:37:50looked behind to what their interests
01:37:52were which were in cooking and eating
01:37:54they could have ended up with a whole
01:37:55peel for one and a whole fruit for the
01:37:59other that is great I need to go back
01:38:02and read gang to yes I I I mean I bought
01:38:05that as soon as I could as soon as I
01:38:08could buy it I got it and then getting
01:38:10past no followed up and then possible
01:38:12will be the next addition what do you
01:38:16possible does or what would success
01:38:19constitute for you with this book comes
01:38:24later how do you know if it's been a
01:38:26successful book or
01:38:30dream my dream is you know if I was a
01:38:35martian Anthropologist right now looking
01:38:38at humanity and I look at say wow we
01:38:40live in this time of paradox because we
01:38:42have so much abundance so much potential
01:38:44so much opportunity to make the world
01:38:46better you know you know we've got the
01:38:47technology we've got AI we've got all
01:38:49this stuff and this the same time what's
01:38:52in our way you know there's there's no
01:38:54limit to what we could do there's no
01:38:56opportunity we can't realize there's no
01:38:58problem we can't solve if only we can
01:39:00learn to work together and what's in the
01:39:02way are these conflicts that seem
01:39:04impossible that you know seem polarizing
01:39:07and paralyzing and the reason I wrote
01:39:10possible was to indicate from my own
01:39:12experience of spending 45 years
01:39:14wandering around the world as a
01:39:15negotiator and an anthropologist kind of
01:39:18trying to understand these things seeing
01:39:20where people took impossible situations
01:39:23and found possibilities we're all
01:39:26possibilist I mean anyone listening this
01:39:28podcast you're a Poss you believe in
01:39:31potential my hope my dream is that
01:39:35a a worldwide League of possesss who are
01:39:39tackling the world's toughest problems
01:39:41and that could be your personal issues
01:39:44it could be issues with yourself issues
01:39:46with your partner you know it could be
01:39:49professional work life issues it could
01:39:50be in the the community or can be in the
01:39:52larger world the political world but
01:39:56using harnessing our full human
01:39:59potential for what you have you know
01:40:01what you have here in this podcast which
01:40:03is our full human potential for
01:40:05curiosity our full human potential for
01:40:07creativity and our full human potential
01:40:10for collaboration to transform these
01:40:14conflicts because if we can transform
01:40:15these conflicts we can transform Our
01:40:17Lives we can transform our world that's
01:40:22amen well it's very well said very well
01:40:26put and uh worthwhile dream to have I
01:40:30think William this has been an
01:40:32incredible conversation I've been
01:40:34looking forward to it for some time
01:40:38and people can find the book wherever
01:40:41they find their books possible how we
01:40:42survive and thrive in an age of conflict
01:40:45I have found your book so incredibly
01:40:47useful in the past so incredibly
01:40:49practical so I really do hope people
01:40:51check it out and furthermore take the
01:40:55last thing that you just said very
01:40:57seriously because as you said a lot of
01:41:00this is an inside job working from the
01:41:02inside out and it's highly compatible
01:41:06with a lot of the things completely
01:41:07compatible with much of what has
01:41:10been I would say well received on this
01:41:12podcast in the past stoic philosophy Etc
01:41:16and I I think your craft and your Genius
01:41:24of in some senses you know separating
01:41:27what you can influence from those things
01:41:29you can't and then being very creative
01:41:32and I would say as sort of a
01:41:37precursor believer in the
01:41:39possible in crafting you know potential
01:41:42Solutions not just ways out but ways
01:41:45forward and really appreciate all the
01:41:48time today people can find you on
01:41:49Twitter it's all the cool kids call it X
01:41:52now these days at William muuri gty as
01:41:55in getting to yes is there anything else
01:41:56that you would like to say any requests
01:41:59of my audience anything else that you
01:42:01would like to add before we wind to a
01:42:03close well first of this has been a huge
01:42:06pleasure to speak with you Tim and I'm a
01:42:08big fan of your your podcast and of
01:42:11your I believe this possess mindset and
01:42:15my humble request to to your listeners
01:42:19is take this possi as mindset this
01:42:22belief that I think infuses this podcast
01:42:25of this belief in human potential and
01:42:27being curious and being creative and
01:42:29being collaborative and apply it to your
01:42:33own difficult conflicts and you'll see
01:42:37that if you can go to the balcony you
01:42:39can do that inside job that self-mastery
01:42:41that stoic philosophy and if you can
01:42:45then build the other side of golden
01:42:47bridge you know something that works for
01:42:49both sides and if you can take the third
01:42:52side engage the larger Community for the
01:42:54benefit of the community if we can do
01:42:56those three things balcony Bridge third
01:42:58side those are our human I believe
01:43:02innate superpowers if we can awaken them
01:43:05then I think we can kind of create the
01:43:07world that we want for ourselves and the
01:43:10love William thank you so much this has
01:43:13been a fantastic conversation I've taken
01:43:16all sorts of notes it was a real
01:43:17pleasure to do research for this because
01:43:19it just triple reinvigorated my interest
01:43:23in in everything that you have written
01:43:25about and all of The Many Adventures
01:43:28had I really appreciate the time and uh
01:43:31for sharing sharing your life and
01:43:34techniques and perspectives on the show
01:43:36so thank you for that and for everybody
01:43:39listening we will link to everything in
01:43:41the show notes as per usual at tim. Blog
01:43:44podcast everything mentioned you can
01:43:46find possible how we survive and thrive
01:43:49in an age of conflict anywhere you find
01:43:51your fine books and until next time be
01:43:53just a bit Kinder than is necessary not
01:43:56only to other people but also to
01:43:58yourself thanks for tuning
