Dr. Andrew Huberman β The Foundations of Physical and Mental Performance
Tim Ferriss2023-03-09
tim ferriss#4 hour workweek#4 hour body#4 hour chef#timothy ferriss#ferriss#tim ferriss blog#Tim Ferriss Podcast#andrew huberman#dr. andrew huberman#andrew huberman podcast#andy galpin#huberman lab#andrew huberman morning routines#huberman lab podcast#huberman#sleep#fitness#health#omega 3#andrew huberman routines#huberman protocols#improve health#supplements#sleep supplements#matthew walker#fitness science
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π« Short Summary
The video features neuroscientist Andrew Huberman discussing the importance of sleep, nutrients, exercise, light, and relationships for overall well-being. He highlights the significance of movement, specific exercises like leg workouts and tib work, and the benefits of supplements like omega-3 and adaptogens. The conversation extends to the impact of hormones, fertility, avoiding harmful substances, and the potential of psychedelic therapies for mental health. Huberman emphasizes the need for caution, awareness, and informed choices in optimizing health and performance, concluding with links to related resources and a message of gratitude.
β¨ Highlights
π Transcript
β¦
The importance of sleep and nutrients for optimal brain function.
07:00Andrew Huberman emphasizes how previous sleep quality affects current mental and physical states.
Sleep plays a critical role in maintaining overall health and performance.
Nutrient-rich, minimally processed foods are essential for brain function.
Huberman discusses the debate around supplementation and the necessity of micronutrients for well-being.
β¦
Importance of Five Key Elements for Overall Well-Being.
16:07Sleep, nutrients, exercise, light, and relationships are crucial for optimal health and performance.
Prioritizing daily factors such as movement, sunlight exposure, and social connections is essential.
Personal insights are shared on adjusting training routine and focusing on relationships in different life stages.
Emphasis on the fundamental role of core elements in supporting mental and physical health.
β¦
Importance of movement for the nervous system and overall well-being.
21:02Brain's circuits for movement and vision are a significant part of the brain.
Concurrent training for strength and endurance is feasible.
Different types of training can result in specific adaptations in the body.
Structured training program targeting various fitness domains can lead to overall progress.
β¦
The importance of central pattern generators for repeated movements during exercise.
31:31Engaging in repetitive exercises allows the mind to focus on other tasks and improve efficiency.
Training legs, specifically calf work and tibialis raises, is highlighted for overall strength and endurance.
The benefits of training tibs for calf growth, strength, and posture improvement are discussed.
Maintaining lower body strength is crucial for longevity and athletic performance, emphasizing not skipping leg day.
β¦
Importance of tib work for improved performance and injury prevention.
36:07Emphasis on tib raises and exercises for tibialis anterior strength.
Significance of balanced muscle training for overall lower body health.
Benefits of glute-ham raises and hack squats for strength and form.
Focus on aesthetics and functionality in training, rather than excessive muscle growth.
β¦
Importance of leg workouts for strength, cognitive improvements, and overall health.
41:44Leg workouts provide systemic anabolic effects and aid in fat loss.
Rest between sets, intensity of workouts, and impact on neural circuits are crucial.
Deliberate heat and cold exposure can aid in recovery and hormone stimulation.
Consistent training and recovery methods are emphasized for optimal results.
β¦
Importance of neck training for strength, balance, and injury prevention.
55:26A strong neck can lead to better posture, confidence, and reduced risk of injuries in sports or accidents.
Training the neck with slow, controlled movements using a towel-wrapped weight can improve aesthetics and overall health.
For women, lighter weights or hand resistance are recommended to avoid excessive neck muscle growth.
Balanced proportions and strength are key to preventing injuries and maintaining overall health and well-being.
β¦
Weekly workout routine summary.
01:03:28The speaker's workout routine includes weight workouts, cardiovascular exercises, and short high-intensity training sessions.
Workouts are kept relatively short to prevent increased cortisol levels and maximize recovery.
Different exercises target various muscle groups and neural circuits for overall physical and cognitive performance.
Engaging in play activities is highlighted for mental health and enjoyment benefits.
β¦
Nordic curls are a substitute for glute-ham raises, targeting the posterior chain and lower back.
01:06:32Ben Bruno, a popular Instagram trainer, is known for his expertise in Nordic curls.
Tib work is recommended as a solution for shin splints, with tib raises being effective.
A study on seated calf raises improving insulin sensitivity is discussed, providing a unique seated exercise option.
β¦
Importance of improving metabolic status through movement and exercise.
01:12:44Small muscles have significant energy expenditure and simple movements like bouncing knees can have a metabolic impact.
Subjective exercise tracking and gradual progression in workouts are valuable for fitness.
Optimizing hydration patterns can improve sleep quality.
Andrew Huberman's sleep stack includes magnesium threonate, theanine, apigenin, and myo-inositol for better sleep.
β¦
Benefits of high-intensity interval training for improving sleep and the importance of cortisol levels throughout the day.
01:22:23Cycling and running are effective methods for high-intensity interval training to improve sleep.
Cortisol levels should be higher in the morning and lower in the evening to avoid negative impacts.
Omega-3 fatty acids, specifically EPA, have benefits for mood and sleep improvement.
Different brands of fish oil supplements, dosage recommendations, and tips for optimal intake are discussed.
β¦
Andrew Huberman discusses the impact of EPA on mood and the benefits of omega-3 intake for reducing sugar cravings.
01:27:44Omega-3 intake can reduce sugar cravings by affecting neurotransmitters in the brain.
Gut signals play a role in how the brain responds to nutrients.
Consuming fermented foods daily is important for gut health.
Japanese food items like nattΕ and uni may be challenging for foreigners to eat.
β¦
Benefits of adaptogens like Rhodiola rosea in enhancing endurance and power output without suppressing cortisol.
01:37:17Rhodiola rosea reduces perceived effort, increases vigor, and improves recovery post-workout.
It affects the central nervous system by reducing adrenaline release during high-intensity efforts.
Dosage recommendation is 200 milligrams prior to workouts.
Tongkat ali and Fadogia agrestis are also mentioned for their effects on testosterone levels and libido.
β¦
Discussion on the use of Fadogia agrestis and tongkat ali for enhancing testosterone levels and fertility.
01:44:26Dosages, effects on testicular tissue, and cycling practices are explored, emphasizing safety and optimal dosage ranges.
Importance of monitoring sperm parameters, fertility optimization, and the relationship between fertility and vitality is highlighted.
Use of myo-inositol and other supplements to increase free testosterone indirectly is discussed.
Emphasis on balancing hormonal levels, enhancing vitality, and understanding the interplay between biological systems for overall well-being.
β¦
Importance of creativity in generating ideas, starting businesses, and forming relationships.
01:51:41Vitality plays a key role in overcoming fear and achieving upward spirals of effort.
Hormones like dopamine, epinephrine, and norepinephrine are crucial in driving motivation.
Sunlight exposure increases free testosterone levels and enhances overall well-being.
Supplements like omegas, tongkat ali, Fadogia agrestis, and Rhodiola rosea impact hormone systems and relationships.
β¦
Factors affecting sperm and egg health.
02:01:04Cellphones in pockets, even in airplane mode, can decrease sperm quality and testosterone levels due to EMFs and heat.
L-carnitine supplements can enhance egg and sperm health.
Smoking anything, including cannabis, is harmful to fertility.
Saunas can reduce sperm motility.
β¦
Impact of Phone Use on Sperm Health and Testosterone Production.
02:07:36Time spent with a phone in the pocket does not strongly affect sperm health and testosterone production.
Keeping the phone in the front pocket can reduce sperm count and affect androgen-binding protein.
Factors such as alcohol consumption, stress, and environmental toxins can impact egg and sperm quality.
Freezing sperm, eggs, or embryos can be beneficial for future conception.
β¦
Importance of avoiding plastics, pesticides, and excessive alcohol consumption for overall health.
02:15:55Negative health effects of alcohol consumption beyond two drinks per week.
Potential dangers of handling receipts and exposure to pesticides.
Risks associated with high-THC cannabis use, especially for young males.
Therapeutic benefits of CBD cannabis, such as its anti-epileptic properties.
β¦
Discussion on psychedelics and high THC cannabis, focusing on risks and benefits.
02:26:45Tim Ferriss and Andrew Huberman provide insights on classification and effects of substances, stressing caution and informed use.
Evolving perceptions and therapeutic applications of psychedelics are explored, with mention of ongoing research and changing attitudes towards substances like MDMA and psilocybin.
Personal experiences with psychedelics are shared, along with reflections on past recreational use.
Safety profiles of substances like MDMA are discussed, highlighting the importance of accurate information dissemination.
β¦
Psilocybin at high doses has shown significant and sustained relief for 60-70% of patients with treatment-resistant depression.
02:33:08Big pharma is researching non-psychedelic psychedelics to harness benefits without hallucinogenic effects.
Music and an eye mask play a crucial role in guiding individuals towards emotional introspection during psychedelic therapy sessions.
MDMA therapy is emerging as a potential treatment for trauma, aiding individuals in developing empathy for themselves and addressing past traumas.
Psychedelics are gaining recognition for their therapeutic potential in treating psychiatric illnesses.
β¦
Experiences with MDMA sessions
02:40:49Emphasizes introspective and transformative nature of sessions.
Importance of self-care and overcoming fears associated with psychedelics.
Discussion on benefits and risks of psychedelics, stressing proper sourcing and caution.
Shift in perspective towards psychedelics as a tool for healing trauma and improving mental health globally.
β¦
Psychedelic therapies show promise in treating mental health issues.
02:50:03The adaptability and potential long-lasting effects of psychedelic therapies are highlighted.
Discussion covers the use of psychedelics in therapy, potential risks and benefits, and the importance of staying updated on research in the field.
Excitement is expressed for the possibilities of psychedelic therapies, along with a call for caution and thorough research.
Optimizing podcast content and appreciation for each other's work and influence in the field is emphasized.
β¦
Andrew provides links to resources mentioned in the podcast, including a light vest, accessible at tim.blog/podcast.
02:58:33Listeners can search for Andrew or Huberman to find all related content.
He encourages kindness towards others and oneself, emphasizing the importance of paying attention to fundamentals and checklists for success.
The episode concludes with gratitude for tuning in.
00:13Tim Ferriss: Hello, boys and girls, ladies
and germs.
00:17This is Tim Ferriss for a rare in-person podcast.
00:21I know that's become the norm on YouTube and
elsewhere, but this is a rare occasion and
00:26I am thrilled to have Andrew Huberman here
with me.
00:30So great to have you here in person, Andrew.
00:32So Andrew Huberman, who is this Andrew Huberman?
00:35Dr. Huberman, PhD, on Twitter @HubermanLab,
is a neuroscientist and tenured professor
00:40in the Department of Neurobiology at Stanford
University's School of Medicine.
00:44He has made numerous important contributions
to the fields of brain development, brain
00:47function, and neuroplasticity.
00:49Work from the Huberman Laboratory at Stanford
Medicine has been consistently published in
00:53top journals including nature, science and
cell.
00:56For those who don't know, that's like having
a sweep at the Oscars.
01:00But back to the bio, Andrew's the host of
the podcast Huberman Lab, which is often ranked
01:05as one of the top five podcasts in the world
by both Apple and Spotify.
01:17The show aims to help viewers and listeners
improve their health with science and science-based
01:22tools.
01:23New episodes air every Monday on YouTube and
all podcast platforms.
01:26You can find all things Andrew at hubermanlab.com,
on YouTube that is Huberman Lab, Instagram,
01:33HubermanLab, and also on Twitter as mentioned
@HubermanLab.
01:35Andrew, nice to see you.
01:37Andrew Huberman: Great to see you.
01:39So happy to be here.
01:40I want to say I grew up listening to your
podcast, although I think I was in my 30s
01:45when I started listening.
01:46And so for me, I'm really tickled to be here
because so much of how I ran my laboratory
01:51when I first became a professor was based
on principles from The 4-Hour Workweek.
01:56Now mind you, my work weeks were like 100-hour
work weeks.
01:59I actually lived in my laboratory with my
dog β my students and postdocs can attest
02:03to that β but I incorporated a ton of the
principles.
02:06I was following The 4-Hour Body slow carb
diet.
02:09I was training.
02:11I had my cheat days and on and on and on.
02:13So for me, this is kind of being transported
forward and back in time.
02:19Tim Ferriss: Oh, man.
02:20Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
02:21Well, I can't say enough positive things about
you and your podcast and what you've done,
02:25and as you know, this is not just because
I'm sitting here in front of you because I
02:28text you all the time.
02:29In fact, I will say this, I have a notebook
that dates back over a decade where at the
02:36time I was pretty lonely.
02:37It was just me and my dog.
02:38Eventually, a great girlfriend at the time
came along.
02:42But I was running my lab and there's a lot
of social buffers between professors and students,
02:47understandably and necessarily.
02:49And so I was pretty lonely, and I thought,
who are my friends going to be?
02:52I was in a new town, I didn't know many people,
and I have this list, and I read the list
02:57the other day, I'll send you a photo, and
the list was of about five or six people that
03:02I really admired and whose principles and
work I was trying to incorporate into basically
03:07every aspect of my life.
03:09At the top of the list is a guy named Tim
Armstrong, lead singer for Rancid, who I've
03:13recently become friends with.
03:15And so totally, that's another amazing story.
03:18Joe Strummer, who unfortunately I never met,
the great Joe Strummer, which explains my
03:23attire.
03:24He always wore a buttoned-down black shirt
in his adulthood, so I decided to do that.
03:28At some point and much more related to your
name, because The 4-Hour Workweek and your
03:33podcast which eventually came along, Rick
Rubin, who I've had the great blessing of
03:39having on my podcast and learning from, and
then Oliver Sacks, who unfortunately passed
03:43away before I ever had the chance to meet
him.
03:47But anyway, I had to tell you that you were
already my friend before you knew who I was.
03:54And I did that because I would look at that
list and think, okay, who do I want to try
03:58and embody in terms of ways about going through
life and trying to do things right in my professional
04:04and personal life?
04:05So that was my shortlist, and I'm very proud
of that shortlist.
04:08I still have it.
04:09I sent Tim the list the other day and he was
like, "No way, man.
04:13This is pretty wild."
04:14And I'm like, "You think it's wild for you,
just imagine how wild this is for me."
04:16So anyway, to set the context.
04:17Tim Ferriss: Yeah, well, I appreciate that,
man, and I've been incredibly impressed, not
04:23just with your research and academic bonafides
and what you've accomplished there, which
04:27is a lot in and of itself.
04:28And of course we've spoken before, but the
incredible focus and force with which you
04:35have just blown the barn doors off with the
podcast, which is really a service to people.
04:42So I am happy to have you here, thrilled to
be spending time in person after COVID and
04:48recording remotely.
04:50So we have a ton to dive into, and hopefully
I will not be the hero with clay feet.
04:56As they say, it's all downhill from here as
far as what I can do in this conversation.
05:02But I thought we could begin with perhaps
revisiting in some respects, our last conversation,
05:08not to rehash it, but to simply ask the question.
05:11Since we last spoke, which was a while ago,
I guess it was about maybe two years ago,
05:16what have you changed your mind on and what
have you doubled down on if you have answers
05:22to both of those?
05:23Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I'll start with what
I've doubled down on.
05:26I've doubled down on the idea, which perhaps
I stated last time we spoke, and perhaps not.
05:33But I certainly believe that our state of
mind and body at any point in time is strongly
05:41dictated by our state of mind and body in
the hours and days prior to that.
05:47And on the one hand, people are going to hear
that and say, "Well duh, if you're sleep-deprived,
05:50you're going to feel like garbage.
05:52And if you're well-rested, you'll feel great."
05:54That's kind of the top contour of it.
05:57But when one looks at the neuroscience, for
instance, of sleep, you start to realize that
06:02the amount of rapid eye movement sleep that
you're going to get in any 90-minute bout
06:06of sleep, because your sleep is broken up
into these 90-minute segments, more or less,
06:11is strongly dictated by the ratio of slow
wave sleep, AKA deep sleep and rapid eye movement
06:17sleep that you had in the previous 90-minute
bout.
06:19And then when you start to look at the research
in terms of waking states, you start to find
06:25that your ability to be focused, say, for
a bout of work in the morning or the afternoon,
06:30or a creative brainstorm session, or I don't
know, to maybe drill into some personal issue
06:35that you're dealing with during therapy or
just on a walk or while journaling is not
06:39a square wave function.
06:41None of us should sit down and expect ourselves
to just drop into that state.
06:46Much of our ability to move into that state
effectively, whatever effective means, whatever
06:50the target or goal of that bout as I'm calling
it, is going to be dictated by what happened
06:57in the previous moments and hours.
07:00And so when I zoom out from that, what I've
doubled down on in this is this idea that
07:06there are just a core set of foundational
things that we have to re-up every 24 hours.
07:12I think thanks to the incredibly hard work
of Dr. Matt Walker at Berkeley, The Sleep
07:19Diplomat on Twitter, it's such a great name
because it's so appropriate.
07:22A decade ago or so, it was like, "I'll sleep
when I'm dead."
07:26That was the dominant mentality out there.
07:28And yeah, sleep's great, but getting stuff
done is more important.
07:32Matt has really impressed on everybody that
our mental health, our physical health, and
07:35our ability to perform is so strongly dependent
on our ability to get quality sleep β maybe
07:41not every night of our life; we have to be
realistic β but that sleep is vital.
07:45So a hat tip is insufficient.
07:48So sleep is critical, but sleep is just one
of about, I would say five things that really
07:53set the buoyancy or the foundation upon which
our nervous system is able to accomplish these
08:00transitions that I'm talking about at all.
08:03And those five things are sleep β in the
absence of quality sleep over two or three
08:10days, you're just going to fall to pieces.
08:12In the presence of quality-sufficient sleep
over two or three days, you're going to function
08:17at an amazing level.
08:19There's a gain of function and a loss of function
there.
08:21It's not just if you sleep poorly, you function
less well.
08:24You sleep better, you function much better.
08:26So sleep, I would say, is at the top of the
list.
08:30Nutrients, and there you can think macronutrients
and so your carnivores are only eating meat
08:36and your vegans are only eating plants and
your omnivores, which is I think probably
08:4190 percent of the world, is eating a combination
of those.
08:43But quality nutrients, I think that when I
look at all of the nutrition, literature,
08:50and arguments out there, it seems that everyone
can agree on one thing, which is that probably
08:5480 percent or more of our nutrition should
come from unprocessed or minimally processed
08:59sources.
09:00Minimally processed would require some cooking,
but it survive on the shelf as opposed to
09:04packaged foods or highly palatable foods.
09:06So you've got sleep nutrients.
09:07But then we should also put in micronutrients,
and this is where maybe we'll get into a discussion
09:12about supplementation.
09:13I think that there's supplementation or supplements
is a bit of a misnomer because it implies
09:18vitamin supplements and people say, "Well,
can't you get all that from food or that whey
09:22protein, isn't that just food?
09:24Wouldn't you be better off with a chicken
breast?"
09:25Okay, well then when you talk about convenience
and the absorption, okay, but then there's
09:29this huge category of things ranging from
the kind of esoterically named things like
09:35Ashwagandha and Shilajit and tongkat ali and
Fadogia agrestis β
09:38Tim Ferriss: I'm in!
09:39I'll buy all of them!
09:40Andrew Huberman: Exactly.
09:41All the herbal stuff, right?
09:42Tim Ferriss: Yeah.
09:43Andrew Huberman: You're not going to get that
from food.
09:44Tim Ferriss: Yeah, totally.
09:45Andrew Huberman: So should we call them supplements
at all?
09:46And so let's just say the third thing is,
or the second thing is nutrients, and that
09:49includes macronutrients, and that includes
micronutrients as well.
09:53So those two things.
09:54Then the third would be movement.
09:56And this has also been an enormous transition
in the last, I think just five years, which
10:01is not just for people interested in body
building or power lifting or for competitive
10:05athletes, but now it seems everybody, including
the elderly, understand that you need a combination
10:12of cardiovascular exercise and you need resistance
training, whether or not it's with body weight
10:17or weights or machines, etc, that you need
both.
10:20Not a week goes by without seeing an article
in one of the major publications out there,
10:24standard media, let's call it traditional
media, we'll be nice to them, traditional
10:28media that highlights some study showing that
resistance training in elderly people can
10:32offset Alzheimer's or that as our friend Peter
Attia has pointed out so many times that many
10:38of the end-of-life-creating injuries are due
to older people stepping down, the eccentric
10:44movements.
10:45So you need movement, that's the third category.
10:47Fourth, I will argue, and I like to think
that maybe I've helped this movement, if you
10:53want to call it that, is light.
10:55In particular, sunlight in the early part
and throughout the middle of the day, and
11:00trying to minimize the amount of artificial
light that you're exposed to in the evening
11:03and late night hours most of the time, because
you have to live life, just fundamental.
11:08And then I think the last category that's
important is social connection, AKA relationships,
11:14let's just call it relationships, because
that can include relationship to self.
11:17So those things set up the core foundation.
11:21And I think one way to think about them is
just as a list.
11:25Another is to think about them in terms of
a schedule basis.
11:29And that's how I've really doubled down is
I realize that every 24 hours I need to invest
11:34something into each one of those things.
11:36So I think that 10 years ago, or five years
ago, or even two years ago, I used to think,
11:40okay, what's the workout split?
11:42Or how am I going to eat for the next couple
of months?
11:46What am I trying to optimize for?
11:47Is it muscle?
11:48Is it fat loss?
11:49Is it just maintaining?
11:50Is it energy?
11:51Is it focus?
11:52That's all fine and good.
11:53But sleep, nutrients, exercise, light, relationships,
those really establish the foundation of what
12:01I consider to be all of the elements that
create our ability to move as seamlessly as
12:08possible between the states that we happen
to be in and the states we desire to be in.
12:13And when I zoom out and I think about what
are the major struggles that I, and it seems
12:17everyone deals with, it's like how to get
more focused.
12:20So we can talk about what do you take, what's
the supplement?
12:23But you have to say, "Well, how are you sleeping?
12:25Have you done any exercise?"
12:26You really always find yourself, or I find
myself taking 10 steps back and then moving
12:31through the sequence of five things before
you can even begin to talk about whether or
12:35not taking three or 600 milligrams of Alpha
GPC and how often to do that and does it work,
12:40and yes, it works, etc.
12:41But those things really set the foundation.
12:43And so I like to think of those five things
every single day.
12:47You have to re-up on sleep every 24 hours
or try to, you have to re-up on movement every
12:5224 hours.
12:53You can go a day or so immobile, but you better
move the next day.
12:57And ideally, you're moving seven days a week.
12:59Doesn't necessarily mean trained to failure
and running a marathon seven days a week.
13:03You can Goggins your life or you can not Goggins
your life.
13:06For those of you who don't know, I'm referring
to David Goggins there, by the way, who seems
13:10to never stop moving.
13:11Although I just learned meditates two hours
every night, every night.
13:14And I'm inclined to believe when he says that,
that he indeed does that.
13:18You need nutrients, even if they come from
stored sources, even if you're going to fast.
13:21You're going to fast for a day or two, okay
fine, I've done that.
13:25I know you've done that.
13:27I would put hydration under nutrients too.
13:29So you can drive nutrients from stored fat,
protein, etc, glycogen.
13:33The relationship it's light is you're going
to need that every 24 hours.
13:37You're going to need sunlight, even if through
cloud cover, and you're going to want to avoid
13:42bright artificial lights at night, not every
night, but most nights of your life.
13:46And then that relationship's one is the one
that maybe we can go into in a little bit
13:49more depth at some point, but it requires
focus, it requires attention, every 24 hours.
13:55Now, that doesn't necessarily mean you have
to see friends, talk to friends, text friends
13:59every 24 hours.
14:00Some people are far more introverted than
others, but then you're working on your relationship
14:04to yourself in that solo time, and hopefully
when you're spending time with others as well,
14:08that has some internal repercussions.
14:10So if I've doubled down on anything, it's
the understanding that there is no so-called
14:15optimization.
14:17There is no real interest, at least from me,
in trying to layer in other things unless
14:22I'm paying attention to each and every one
of those things every 24 hours.
14:26You have to re-up on each and every one of
those five things every 24 hours.
14:30And if you don't, you can get by for a day
or two, but pretty soon you're going to hit
14:35that wall where you won't be able to do any
of the things that most people are actually
14:40seeking to do.
14:42And the last thing I'll say about that is
I think people hear a list of those five things
14:46and they think, "Gosh, okay, well that must
be nice for you, Andrew and Tim.
14:50You wake up, you look at sunlight, you guys
don't have kids, you don't have to worry about
14:56kids running around.
14:57You can exercise."
14:58There are ways of layering in the protocols
that re-up as I'm referring to, these five
15:04things every 24 hours that also include other
people in your life, kids, pets, etc.
15:12Exercise certainly can include that as well.
15:14But I would argue that there is no showing
up properly for yourself and for the other
15:20people in your life unless these things are
being handled.
15:23And it's not about becoming soft and cushy,
it's actually about becoming quite resilient
15:27and effective.
15:28And I think this for me it seems so simple,
but as our friend Paul Conti said to me recently,
15:36he said, "After all the analysis and pouring
through things and the complicated notions
15:40of the subconsciousβ¦" he's a psychiatrist,
after all, "...in the end, really great mental
15:45health is about simple practices, like first
principles of self-care."
15:50So to which I raised my hand and said, "Well,
what is a first principle of self-care?
15:54I'm a biologist, after all."
15:55And he said, "Aha.
15:56It's basically the things that we were just
talking about."
15:59There's those five things.
16:00And so I'm doubling down, I'm tripling down
on those as essential to the point where nothing
16:07else really happens for very long unless those
five things are tended to.
16:11Tim Ferriss: Question.
16:12Of those five, let's just say, if you had
to pick one that you were β neglecting may
16:19be a strong word, but underweighting, that
you are now weighting differently, what would
16:24it be and what have you done?
16:27What have you added or changed or subtracted?
16:29Andrew Huberman: I'll have to pick two.
16:32Let's do β
Tim Ferriss: Both, then.
16:33Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
16:34The two are movement, really changed the way
that I train and exercise to some extent.
16:41And actually my whole philosophy on what's
possible in terms of training and how to incorporate
16:46it into a week in a way that really works
to build strength and endurance and feel really
16:53good in one's body all the time.
16:57And then the other one is relationships, which
probably reflects place in life where I'm
17:0447 now.
17:05I've chosen to delay having a family, but
that's a primary focus.
17:09But also having done a lot of personal work
toward my mid-40s, I thought I was "there."
17:20And then realizing that β
Tim Ferriss: It's a trap door.
17:23Andrew Huberman: It's a trap door.
17:24And then realizing that, I guess here again,
I'll use a language that Paul uses, which
17:31is that there were some unresolved core conflicts.
17:34And this idea of core conflicts is really,
I think, the most appropriate way to put the
17:40important psychological stuff that people
need to work through.
17:46Everyone has them, many people have trauma,
not everyone has trauma, but as defined as
17:52an event that fundamentally changes the way
that you nervous system works, such that you
17:56function less well in some or many domains
of life.
17:59Again, I've robbed that definition from Paul
Conti.
18:02I'm far less eloquent than he is in delivering
it, but I think realizing that there's still
18:07some core conflicts that I needed to resolve.
18:11And I'm going whole hog on that, and it's
been interesting to say the least.
18:16Tim Ferriss: So let's start with perhaps the
easier one.
18:20Movement.
18:22What have you implemented?
18:23What have you embraced or cut back on in the
movement category?
18:29And I'm very interested in this personally
because I have really taken this as one of
18:36a few of those five to focus on myself in
the last, I would say year.
18:41Because I've done a lot of training, let's
just say in the last 10 years, but I've not
18:45done a lot of competition and I miss developing
athleticism.
18:51And if I take as an assumption that we have
largely evolved to move through space to actually
18:58move and navigate, ski touring is just one
example.
19:03So putting on skins, these are actually, they
used to be actual animal skins, now they're
19:09synthetic, but you put on skins on the bottom
of skis and you effectively NordicTrack your
19:14way up the mountain with switchbacks, and
then you take them off, you do a transition,
19:19you ski down, you rinse and repeat.
19:21But the experience of being, if you choose
your environments in a location where you
19:27get lots of sunlight in the morning and early
afternoon, symmetrical exercise, movement
19:34where you're not too heavily weighting one
side or the other, there are benefits to asymmetrical
19:39types of exercise.
19:40But I have found this to just be absolutely,
I don't think it's an overstatement to say
19:46revolutionary for my physical and mental well-being.
19:51And you also get, in this particular case
for me, a degree of hip extension that I really
19:56just do not get in my day-to-day existence
otherwise.
20:02So I'm putting that out there just as an example
and an explanation for why I want to dig a
20:07little bit deeper on the movement side.
20:08So what have you ended up implementing?
20:10Andrew Huberman: Well, first of all, let me
just say that your statement about movement
20:14being so fundamental to who we are as a species,
the Nobel Prize-winning β physiologist is
20:21really what he was β Sherrington said that,
"The final common path of the entire nervous
20:26system is movement."
20:28Which I sometimes think about because we often
think that our emotions somehow impact the
20:36world, but they really don't, except insofar
as we say things or do things.
20:41The other way to put this is the evolutionary
biologist will say, "There is no fossil record
20:46for the brain."
20:49If you look at brains, it's only what people
actually did with the internal architecture
20:53of their brain.
20:54It all boils down to movement or vision, I
would say, because I'm a vision scientist.
20:57But when you look cubic millimeter by cubic
millimeter through the brain, if you take
21:02the circuits devoted to movement and the circuits
devoted to vision, you've got about 75 percent
21:06of the human brain.
21:08So that's a lot.
21:09The rest is important too, of course.
21:12Movement wise.
21:13Okay, so we did a guest series.
21:14This was a six-episode guest series with Dr.
Andy Galpin, who's a professor of kinesiology,
21:18Cal State Fullerton, and his laboratory works
on, does everything from muscle biopsy all
21:23the way up to working with competitive athletes.
21:26So they'll do deadlifts or boxing or whatever
it is, or students running on treadmills,
21:31huge range of subjects, and then they'll stab
out some muscle β the little cork of muscle.
21:36And you've had this done right?
21:37This was in The 4-Hour Body.
21:38Tim Ferriss: Yeah, I did a muscle biopsy and
videotaped the entire process in the Sports
21:45Science Institute of South Africa.
21:47"Tim tartar" is what I called it when it came
out.
21:49So good.
21:50Turns out my muscle enzymes are, if it's possible
to be below some type of graph representing
21:56Homer Simpson, like citrate synthase and these
various elements, it would be very helpful
22:02for endurance which I seem to lack.
22:04Andrew Huberman: Bur you're built for explosiveness.
22:06Tim Ferriss: I'm built for a very short-duration
explosiveness, which is ironic when you consider
22:11that I'm embracing ski touring because I am
β I'm not like KΓlian Jornet or any of
22:16these folks who would be very well-built for
such a thing.
22:19Andrew Huberman: Well, we make a good team
because I've never had a muscle biopsy.
22:21But I assure you that when I start running
distance, I can progress very fast.
22:25I'm not particularly strong, I'm not particularly
weak, but I'm just not particularly strong
22:29and very little explosiveness, very little
hops, which is why skateboarding wasn't the
22:35right sport for me.
22:37Despite my deep desire, it just didn't happen.
22:41But in terms of what I learned from Andy,
a couple of key principles fell out of the,
22:46and keep in mind, these are peer-reviewed
studies from his laboratory and many other
22:50laboratories of which he's an expert.
22:52And I went deep into this literature with
him for that series.
22:57Concurrent training, meaning getting better
at distance and getting stronger is absolutely
23:03possible.
23:04I did not think that was possible.
23:05I'm a big fan of the late Charles Poliquin
and others who said, "You want to build muscle,
23:10build muscle.
23:11You want to be a runner, be a runner."
23:12And I think at the extremes, that's true.
23:15But the data really pointed to the fact that
you can train for many things concurrently.
23:18I took a step back from everything I learned
from Andy over the last few years in that
23:26series and resculpted my training program
so that on any one given day, I'm training
23:32for something very specific with the understanding
that one can make progress in a lot of different
23:37domains of fitness.
23:38In fact, the way that Andy puts it, I think,
is better than fitness.
23:42He says techniques and methods are many, but
they're only a few set of core adaptations
23:47that your body can make.
23:48So you're really just trying to create adaptations.
23:50Whether or not you do it with a kettlebell
or a bar or a dumbbell or a hammer strength
23:53machine doesn't really matter.
23:55You're trying to create certain adaptations
by using certain loads, moving things at different
23:59speeds.
24:00But that is also true of endurance and running.
24:03So what I figured out was that there's an
optimal training schedule for me that allows
24:08me to target one specific thing each day.
24:10Tim Ferriss: What are some of those specific
things?
24:13Andrew Huberman: Yeah, endurance, strength,
hypertrophy, VO2 max, heat and cold tolerance.
24:20I can talk about why that is.
24:22And also, I should mention each one of those
days, and I can spell this out very, very
24:27simply for you, each one of those days is
also designed to indirectly support one of
24:34the other adaptations I'm trying to accomplish.
24:37So let me explain in short form, and if you
want more detail, I can give you more detail.
24:42My training week starts on Sunday because
Sunday sits leftmost on the calendar.
24:48Sunday, I make it a focused effort to move
as much as possible, ideally outdoors.
24:55I'm thinking endurance.
24:57I essentially want to be like a mule.
25:01I'm just thinking "Be like a mule."
25:03I actually have this shirt β
Tim Ferriss: That's going to be in the headline
25:05of this episode.
25:06Andrew Huberman: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
25:07I actually have this shirt that I sometimes
like to wear on those days.
25:10It's not a black buttoned-down shirt, but
it has a picture of a sloth and it's crossing
25:14its three sloth fingers like Wolverine, and
that's like what I'm trying to embody.
25:18I'm trying to embody the sloth.
25:20So what I'll do on that day is, because sometimes
it's a social day with other people in my
25:24life, if I'm on my own, I'll throw on an eight
or 10-pound weight vest.
25:28They have these thinner ones now that aren't
these mirror vests that where you don't look
25:33like you're in law enforcement or you're trying
to pretend you're in the seal teams, which
25:38I'm not, never was.
25:39But they have these thinner ones that sit
a bit more flush.
25:41I forget the brand name now, but I don't have
any relationship to them.
25:45I'll get it for you, but I really like this
one.
25:47And I'll head out for probably a 75-minute
to a 90-minute slow jog with some hills.
25:54And I'll try and nasal breathe the whole time.
25:55I'll often listen to a podcast or a book.
25:58Sometimes I'll just let my mind drift.
25:59That's if I'm on my own.
26:01If I'm with other people, what I will do is
I'll fill up a backpack with a bunch of heavy
26:05stuff, usually some water in there too, and
drink it as I go.
26:08And I'll do three or four or five hours of
just hiking and just trying to be outside
26:13as much as possible.
26:15The specific goal of that day is endurance.
26:19Just keep going.
26:20And what I notice is because of the other
things I do in the previous days, the 10 or
26:2420 minutes, which come at the start, really
suck.
26:27I either want to go faster, like these little
aches and things.
26:31But what's amazing is somewhere in that 25,
30-minute period, you start to feel really
26:37good.
26:38You actually start to adapt to it right then.
26:39You kind of go, "Okay, this is about the heart
rate I'll use.
26:41This is about the breathing rate.
26:43So this is zone β
Tim Ferriss: What is happening at that point
26:46physiologically or neurologically or both?
26:48Andrew Huberman: I'm glad you mentioned neurologically.
26:50I think physiologically, they're the standard
things that happen during exercise.
26:53You're getting warmer, so joints are more
fluid.
26:56If your cardiovascular system is able to fuel
the relevant muscles, but you're not over,
27:03not shuttling too much fuel to specific muscle
groups, etc.
27:05Because of course, I could be stressed when
I start that.
27:07I could be relaxed, I could be tired, depending
on how well slept the night before.
27:11But neurologically, what happens is really
important, and we know this from data, what
27:17you're starting to do is you're starting to
incorporate what are called central pattern
27:20generators.
27:21Central pattern generators are what allow
you to engage in a repeated movement without
27:25voluntary attention to it.
27:26Very different than say, squatting or front
squatting or doing curls or something where
27:32you're trying to focus on each rep, fundamentally
different.
27:34Tim Ferriss: So it's like the autopilot button
appears on your steering wheel after 30 minutes..
27:38Andrew Huberman: That's right.
27:40And at that point your mind can really attend
to other things.
27:43And of course, as your body warms up, you're
also able to achieve much more output.
27:50So you actually are getting better and more
efficient as you progress.
27:55Now that that's weird.
27:56Most exercise doesn't work out.
27:57Tim Ferriss: It is weird.
27:58But as an intrepid, pseudo-endurance athlete
who's at least really embraced this ski touring,
28:05I've done a lot of it in the last six weeks,
the first 30 to 45 minutes are generally terrible
28:12for everybody.
28:13And then you click into a rhythm and you feel
like you've accessed an extra set of batteries.
28:20Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
28:22It's neural, and I think Andy would agree,
it's neural.
28:25You're engaging the proper amount of what
are called upper motor β you have upper
28:28motor neurons and lower motor neurons.
28:30Lower motor neurons reside in the ventral
spinal cord.
28:33They're the ones that degenerate in ALS.
28:35They're the ones that, fortunately most people
don't degenerate and cause contractions of
28:39the muscle fibers.
28:40They are directed by upper motor neurons,
which are the ones in your brain that allow
28:43you to generate voluntary movement.
28:46However, the upper motor neurons and the lower
motor neurons are happy to engage in a central
28:52pattern generator type circuit if you carry
out something repetitively for long enough.
28:59So as you are able to take your mind off of
the voluntary parts of the movement, it just
29:04becomes easier.
29:07And what you end up finding is that your system
becomes very, very good at doing, forget small
29:13steps or jogging, I'm not going excruciatingly
slow, but for some people it seem really slow.
29:19But that run or that long-weighted hike accomplishes
the endurance piece.
29:26It checks off the box of the zone two cardio
requirement.
29:30Not all of it for the week, but a lot of it.
29:31Tim Ferriss: And for the lay folks out there,
zone two would be, you could have a conversation,
29:35but you really don't want to.
29:36Andrew Huberman: That's right.
29:37Tim Ferriss: As Peter might describe.
29:38Peter Attia.
29:39Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
29:40And Peter's big on doing long Sunday rucks.
29:42He throws on a rucksack because he's tougher
than me.
29:45Tim Ferriss: Well, you're doing the same thing.
29:47You're just filling it full of water and other
heavy β
29:49Andrew Huberman: I have a feeling his rucksack
is heavier than mine.
29:51Peter is, I've trained with Peter.
29:53Peter likes to push himself.
29:54These Sunday long, slow jogs or hikes are
really for my mind as much as they are for
30:02my body.
30:03And I'm convinced that they also carry over
to my ability to endure boring stuff during
30:10the week.
30:11But also it just my ability to work longer
for longer bouts.
30:15So that's Sunday, also gets me outside a lot.
30:18And oftentimes on Monday, because of the constraints
of the work week, I'm not going to be able
30:22to be outside as much as I would like.
30:23So you get a lot of sun and movement on Sunday.
30:25You feel pretty terrific on Monday.
30:27And let's just earmark what we, or go back
to that earmark earlier, which is that the
30:31state that we're in on Monday has a lot to
do with what we did on Sunday.
30:35So I'm trying to optimize for Monday in some
ways too, but it's really about endurance.
30:39Then Monday is, the goal for me is to train
my legs, just get a leg workout on Monday.
30:45First of all, I just like the way that sounds
to myself, like legwork workout on Monday,
30:49but it also sets up the work week really nicely.
30:52Here's why.
30:53I'm going to train my legs the way that's
always worked best for me for training, which
30:56is a warmup, and then two to three, maybe
four hard sets, kind of Mike Mentzer or Dorian
31:03Yates.
31:04It's not with four straps and all of that.
31:05But what we're talking about is warming up
and then doing hard sets that are heavier
31:12or more repetitions than the last time.
31:14Tim Ferriss: And just so I'm clear, are we
talking about multiple sets of the same exercise,
31:19single sets of four different exercises?
31:21What are we talking about?
31:22Andrew Huberman: Yeah, we're talking about
two to four sets, but usually two to three
31:26of two exercises per muscle group.
31:29And I'll explain what that is in a moment.
31:31I should mention that the reason we're training
legs is that everyone should train legs.
31:34So your large muscle groups, I'm trying to
maintain some lower body strength or build
31:38lower body strength and explosiveness.
31:43The data that I see on longevity and just
simply ability to perform different sports
31:47and to just feel strong throughout the body
is strongly rooted in the legs.
31:52So don't skip leg day.
31:53Tim Ferriss: Legs and hips, folks.
31:54Andrew Huberman: Yeah, exactly.
31:55Tim Ferriss: Feed the wolves.
31:56Andrew Huberman: It's kind of funny how glutes
have become the new biceps.
31:59This is what I heard, glutes are the new biceps.
32:02Growing up, this was not the case.
32:04It was like, the '90s,. everyone was like
these waify β I went to a school of waify
32:09hacky sacker dudes with the flowy hair.
32:11I wasn't one of those.
32:12All the girls liked those guys, a bunch of
skateboarders, the skinny skateboarders, and
32:16it was the kind of waif era.
32:17I don't know what it is now, it doesn't matter,
but train your legs, folks.
32:21Having strong legs is great and β
Tim Ferriss: Or learn to hacky sack.
32:24Andrew Huberman: Exactly.
32:25Hacky sack.
32:26I'm sure that's a great skill for the mind
for other reasons.
32:29So the '90s are coming back popular in a popular
β
32:31Tim Ferriss: That's huge.
32:32Andrew Huberman: Style.
32:33Tim Ferriss: Yeah.
32:34You see the youngsters with the Nirvana shirts.
32:35Andrew Huberman: That's amazing.
32:36Tim Ferriss: It's all coming around.
32:37Andrew Huberman: Amazing.
32:38Tim Ferriss: What was old is once new again.
32:39Andrew Huberman: Exactly.
32:40Those were good years.
32:41So good years, bad clothes.
32:42So Monday is really about getting that leg
work workout in to make my whole body strong.
32:46Tim Ferriss: And what exercises do you perform?
32:47Andrew Huberman: It's walk in.
32:49Oftentimes I'll do calf work because, unlike
you, I need work there.
32:53Tim Ferriss: Oh, I need calf work.
32:55That was the weak link in the chain for all
of the winter sports I've been doing for the
33:01last six weeks.
33:02Andrew Huberman: I definitely do a lot of
calf work.
33:03So I'll just walk through it, I am really
big on tib raises.
33:06I warm up with tib raises.
33:08Training the front β
Tim Ferriss: Tib raises meaning the tibialis
33:10anterior?
33:11Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
33:12Tim Ferriss: Like dorsiflexion, raising your
toes towards your knee?
33:14Andrew Huberman: Yeah, so this is a huge addition.
33:16My program, I'm a huge fan of Ben Patrick,
Knees Over Toes Guy, as he calls himself on
33:21Instagram.
33:23I started doing tib work about two years ago,
seriously doing tib work.
33:26So tibialis raises, you can do this also leaning
against a wall at an angle with your back
33:32against the wall and your feet out in front
of you with your heels on the ground and touching
33:35your toes to the ground, and then lifting
them up for repetitions of 25 to 30.
33:38Or if you can have a tib raise machine, as
they're called, that's great.
33:43I warm up with tib work.
33:45Why?
33:46Training my tibs, as they're called, definitely
makes the calf work more effective, never
33:56could grow calves or getting my calves strong,
gotten them substantially bigger and stronger
34:01by training tibs, but more importantly perhaps
helps posture, got rid of my right side sciatica.
34:06I always had this right side leaning in pain,
and I'm going to get teased for saying this,
34:14for me, anyway, I can run like a beast now.
34:17No knee pain, no back pain, no shoulder pain.
34:19I can just run and run and run.
34:22So training your tibs turns out to be key
and it turns out it has everything to do with
34:26the, we'll avoid jargon here, bringing your
toe closer to the kneecap as you generate
34:31your stride, not having the floppy feet.
34:33So if you lay down every night and your toes
are just flopping towards the end of the bed,
34:37your tibs are weak.
34:38A lot of people with knee issues have weak
tibs.
34:40Tim Ferriss: Well, hold on.
34:42So if you're in the bed, you've got your sheets
and blankets on top, and your feet are flopping
34:45forward, are you sleeping like a G.I.
34:48Joe figure with your toes pulled up to your
knees, or what's happening?
34:51Andrew Huberman: No, I just mean that if your
toes are in a state of flaccid relaxation,
34:56if your feet are flaccid, not good.
34:57Tim Ferriss: flaccid toes, folks, red light.
34:59Andrew Huberman: A lot of people who run are
smacking their feet against the ground.
35:04Ben cued people to this, tib work is great
for the calves, it's great for the knee, it's
35:08great for the hip, that's all very clear.
35:11And I think just a lot of people have overtrained
their calves and not balanced it out with
35:16tib work, it would be doing a lot of bicep
working and not a lot of tricep work, or a
35:19lot of quad work and not a lot of hamstring
work.
35:21You have to work both sides of the limb.
35:23And I think our friend Kelly Starrett would
agree.
35:26Tib work has changed everything for me.
35:28Posturally, I have no pain any longer.
35:30Tim Ferriss: I just want to lodge a formal
complaint against Kelly Starrett, people should
35:34look him up, because he is a large man.
35:38Andrew Huberman: Very.
35:39Tim Ferriss: He's Quadzilla.
35:41He's 230, maybe, former high-level competitive
kayaker.
35:45I think he celebrated his 40th birthday by
doing a standing back flip, running an ultra,
35:50and something else, and he's a really good
skier.
35:54And I just want to say it really upsets me.
35:55That he has no discernible physical weaknesses.
35:58It's very irritating.
35:59Andrew Huberman: And a nice guy.
36:00Tim Ferriss: Yeah, and a nice guy.
36:01Andrew Huberman: And a nice guy.
36:02He's very, very strong.
36:03600-pound deadlift.
36:04Tim Ferriss: Yeah, he's a strong unit.
36:05Andrew Huberman: He's a beast.
36:06Tim Ferriss: So tib work.
36:07Andrew Huberman: Tib work.
36:08So I start with tib raises, so it's going
to be a couple warmups, maybe a 12-rep warmup,
36:11an eight-rep warmup, and then I'll do three
sets per tib of anywhere from six to 10 reps.
36:18Andy Galpin told me, and the literature supports
β people like Brad Schoenfeld and others
36:24have shown that for hypertrophy, for muscle
growth, six to 30 reps, anywhere in there
36:30can get you hypertrophy if you go to failure
and if you go hard.
36:33I personally like to keep my work resistance
workouts an hour or less.
36:37I like to train in the more or less the five
to 10 repetition range for strength and for
36:42hypertrophy.
36:43And I'm going for a mix of both.
36:44So I train tibs, then I do calf sled or standing
calf raises, same thing, two to four sets,
36:50five to eight, maybe 10 repetitions.
36:52Tim Ferriss: Are these sets to failure?
36:53Andrew Huberman: These are sets to failure.
36:55And long ago I had gift of learning from the
great Mike Mentzer and these are sets to failure.
37:00I can't budge another micro inch, but I'm
not quaking and I'm not breaking form.
37:06I'm trying to keep everything nice and taught
and rigid because I can't afford an injury
37:11at this point.
37:12Not because I'm a competitive athlete β
Tim Ferriss: No flaccid feet.
37:13Andrew Huberman: No flaccid feet, yeah.
37:15I'm telling you the tib work is a game changer,
and Knees Over Toes Guy, Ben Patrick, is the
37:20one who's been teaching people that, yes,
everyone can dunk, most everyone can dunk.
37:25He does dunks into back bends and all this
stuff.
37:28And it largely hinges on tib work and quality
posterior chain work, things like Nordic curls.
37:33So I'm training calves, that takes about 10,
15 minutes total.
37:37I try and move relatively quickly through
that.
37:40It's only two to three minutes rest, maybe
four if I'm going for a heavy set.
37:43Then I'm weaker in the hamstrings than I am
in my quads so I do two warmups and then two
37:48to four working sets of lying leg curls, pretty
standard stuff, and then I go to β
37:54Tim Ferriss: Lying leg curls meaning on a
machine?
37:55Andrew Huberman: Yeah, on a machine.
37:56Tim Ferriss: Not reverse hamstring?
37:57Andrew Huberman: I have a Nautilus machine
or something.
37:58Not seated, doesn't work for me, just lying
leg curls, and not the hoist machines that
38:04move with you to make it easier.
38:07No.
38:08And maybe the occasional forced rep if somebody's
there to help me.
38:12Then I go do two to four sets, but typically
three, of glute-hammer raises, which is an
38:17incredible exercise.
38:19The equipment isn't in every gym, but I'm
doing about three or four sets of glute-ham
38:24raises going slow.
38:26And this is basically if you were going to
do a deadlift, everyone knows what a deadlift
38:29is, but now take the ground and rotate it
90 degrees and make it the wall.
38:33That's what a glute-ham raise really is.
38:34It allows you to do a deadlift, but then at
the top do a leg curl.
38:38So if you think about it that way, you just
tilted the ground, you just rotated it counterclockwise
38:4390 degrees.
38:44Tim Ferriss: We'll get a link to a YouTube,
folks.
38:45Andrew Huberman: Yeah, exactly.
38:46Glute-ham raise is a great lower back, so
entire posterior chain.
38:48So then I'm done with calves and hamstrings,
and then I'll do two or three sets of leg
38:52extensions, so maybe a warmup and then two
or three sets of working leg extensions, which
38:56for whatever reasons are incredibly painful,
I hate them, but they work to isolate the
38:59quads, and then two or three sets of working
hack squats after a warmup hack.
39:05Hack squats, heavy, heavy, heavy, heavy.
39:08And then I'm done.
39:09I'm out.
39:10Monday's done.
39:11Now this is, again, going back to the overall
theme, the idea is to β
39:13Tim Ferriss: Why hack squats specifically
versus other forms of squats?
39:17Andrew Huberman: Back squats, for me, I always
got a internal hip pain, I had every squat
39:22coach in the world tell me how to do it better,
even tell me I was doing it, and then I end
39:26up with the same thing, and I don't really
care if I can squat X amount of weight.
39:30I'm doing it for strength.
39:31Tim Ferriss: You're not doing it for a power
lifting competition?
39:33Andrew Huberman: No, doing it for strength
and aesthetics.
39:34Aesthetics just because it's some balance.
39:37I'm not trying to get huge legs, but I'm 6.1,
220.
39:41I sit more or less right there all the time.
39:43My body fat goes up and down, might gain five
pounds or lose five pounds, but I'm hovering
39:47around there.
39:48I don't have any interest in being much larger
or much smaller.
39:50I want to keep my strength, maybe build some
as I get older.
39:54And so hack squats allow me to put a lot of
weight on there and keep my nice right angle
39:58between the hip and my back.
39:59Tim Ferriss: Can you describe for folks, just
in case they're going to go searching for
40:02this, what is the visual of a hack squat?
40:05Andrew Huberman: Hack squat, you're sitting
back, you're back is against a sled, you're
40:08holding the handles up near your ears, and
then you're squatting down, your feet are
40:13on a 45-degree or, ideally if you can find
it, a 30-degree platform below you.
40:19So it's not a leg press, it's a hack squat.
40:21Now for people that don't have access to these,
and unfortunately a lot of gyms don't have
40:24them anymore or just don't keep them around
for whatever reason, weighted sissy squats,
40:31as they're sometimes called, can work where
you're holding onto a plate and you're squatting
40:34down while holding onto a pole.
40:36Tim Ferriss: It's deceptively hard to do if
you do it under control and with good technique.
40:40Andrew Huberman: And if you're doing your
tib work, you don't have to β
40:42Tim Ferriss: Great way to stretch your quads
in ski boots too, if you're going up in β
40:46Andrew Huberman: Recently our podcast team
took a little ski trip, I was snowboarding,
40:52and it's been a long time since I've been
on a snowboard, but you start to feel how
40:54many of these movements translate, as you've
pointed out.
40:58And I should say that the sissy squats, a
lot of people think you can't bring your knee
41:02out over your toe.
41:04And this is what Ben Patrick has really been
trying to impress on people, look at skateboarders
41:08land, their knees go out over their toes,
a foot beyond their toes.
41:13Look at parkour, gymnasts β
Tim Ferriss: Olympic weight weightlifters.
41:16Andrew Huberman: This whole knee can't pass
the toe thing is just silly.
41:19So you can feel very comfortable and very
strong at the bottom of one of these sissy
41:24squats or hack squats that way.
41:25And so the whole purpose of that Monday workout,
it's the opposite of what I'm doing on Sunday,
41:29it's get stronger, maintain some size, but
really get stronger in the legs.
41:34Tim Ferriss: And just for people listening
who are like, "For fuck's sake, it's going
41:37to take us six hours to get to Saturday,"
part of the reason that I want to dig into
41:41this day specifically is because it's so neglected.
41:44People do not tend to exercise with a focus
on their legs, but the direct and collateral
41:52benefits are so numerous that I want to just
drill into this.
41:55Andrew Huberman: When you look at the literature
on cognitive improvements from resistance
42:00training, it's not from bicep curls, it's
not from bench presses.
42:05I suppose it could be from things like dips,
which are like a upper body squat of sorts,
42:09especially if they're weighted or with rings
or something, but training the legs is key.
42:14And so, as I said before, there are two goals.
42:17One is to get the legs stronger, the other
is that I'm trying to create a systemic anabolic
42:22effect on the body.
42:23Tim Ferriss: Yeah, I was just about to say,
if you want to lose body fat also, the systemic
42:27endocrine/anabolic effect from doing this
lower body exercise is significant.
42:32Andrew Huberman: It's real work.
42:34And resting long between the sets, especially
the hamstring and quad work, four or five
42:39minutes, so you start to feel lazy, but you're
going all out, you're breathing really hard
42:43after the set, sometimes you feel like you're
going to pass out.
42:46I haven't puked from a leg workout yet, which
people tell me means I haven't really trained
42:49hard, but I just say that I just don't have
a weak stomach like the rest of them.
42:53Tim Ferriss: Look, as Kelly Starrett would
say, "20-rep squats work just great and you'll
42:58puke into a bucket, but you're not going to
be able to do much else for the next week
43:02if you do them really intensely."
43:05It's going to hurt you every time you sit
on a toilet seat, so you're not going to be
43:08doing a whole lot of basketball very well.
43:11Andrew Huberman: I want strong legs, I want
a strong body, I want a body that can accomplish
43:15endurance, and I want the cognitive effects.
43:17So you get that systemic anabolic effect.
43:20There's another practical reason for doing
this on Monday, which is sometimes I might
43:24not train again until Thursday.
43:28And if you've trained your legs properly,
you can know that you initiated a number of
43:34good processes in your brain and body.
43:36Tim Ferriss: Made a down payment for the week.
43:37Andrew Huberman: You made a bit of a down
payment.
43:38Also, if you think about the neural circuits
involved in generating the kinds of movements
43:42I just described for the Monday workout, they're
fundamentally different than the kinds of
43:45movements and neural circuits required for
generating movements.
43:48So the Sunday long workout, they're both legs,
you're running on your legs or walking your
43:52legs, of course, but very, very different.
43:54Different muscle fiber types, different motor
neurons involved.
43:57Tim Ferriss: Different range of motion too.
43:58Andrew Huberman: Different range of motion
and different mindset required.
44:00And keep in mind the entire leg workout takes
10 minutes of warm up and about 55.0 minutes
44:06of training.
44:07Tuesday is very different.
44:09Oh, and by the way, Monday is a very heavy
workday for me.
44:11Typically, we launch podcasts, I do all my
own social media, so I post the assets, I
44:16really like doing that, respond to comments,
dealing with grants, dealing with papers.
44:21So Monday is heavy work day, so getting the
leg workout done early on Monday is really
44:24key for me.
44:26These days, I don't ever really do resistance
training past 11:00 a.m. and ideally earlier
44:31in the day.
44:32And we won't go into whether or not it's fasted
or fed or other because I've covered that.
44:35I have a toolkit where I list out some of
that and how different processes layer together,
44:40and I can link to that.
44:41Tim Ferriss: I would also say, not to interject,
but I will, if people are like, "But wait,
44:47I can't start until I know if it's fasted,
or non-fasted, or if I should be swinging
44:51the dead cat over my head on Tuesday or Wednesday
night."
44:54It's just get started.
44:55You've got plenty to get started.
44:56Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I do it fasted, but
I drink caffeine first, and water.
45:00And listen, I usually eat a bit more on the
weekend.
45:02This is great.
45:03Sunday night you're putting in your fuel sources
for your Monday workout.
45:06There are all sorts of ways this layers together.
45:08Tim Ferriss: Cookies.
45:09Andrew Huberman: I'm not a cookie guy.
45:10Tim Ferriss: I'm just kidding.
45:11Andrew Huberman: For me it's like pizza is
the β I do love pizza.
45:14No cheat days anymore for me however, I haven't
done one in a while.
45:17I'm actually thinking of going back on The
4-Hour Body, just try it and do it.
45:20It's got to still work.
45:21Tim Ferriss: I said cookies, I'll make a very
embarrassing admission, which is I am going
45:28to be going back onto strict slow carb, and
so I had these incredible cookies last night.
45:36We're not going to spend a lot of time on
this because we do need to get to Tuesday,
45:39but it was my last hurrah before locking down
the fort.
45:43So yes, I'm getting back on β
Andrew Huberman: Let me know, I'll start with
45:47you.
45:48Lots of stories about cheat days.
45:49My ex-girlfriend, we used to do the cheat
days together, and at one point, I'll blame
45:54myself, we were in couple's therapy and they
were asking, "So describe a week for yourself."
45:59And she's like, "Well, then on Sunday we're
eating eight croissants."
46:03And this therapist was looking at us, laughing
so hard, trying not to laugh like, "What in
46:09the world is this?"
46:11But we had a good time with it.
46:12She was one of these mutants that could just
eat anything, drink anything, and feel fine
46:17the next day, and never put on pounds.
46:18Tim Ferriss: I know the type.
46:19Andrew Huberman: So the Tuesday is very different.
46:24Tuesday, I don't want to call it a recovery
day, but Tuesday I'm doing something really
46:28different.
46:29First of all, my legs need recovery, so what
I'll do is substantial amounts of deliberate
46:35heat exposure and deliberate cold exposure.
46:37Yes, I do cold showers in the morning first
thing nowadays.
46:40Yes, it is a bad idea to do cold water immersion
after hypertrophy training.
46:47So just for the record, you don't want to
get into an ice bath in the six hours after
46:52a hypertrophy training because it can blunt
the hypertrophy.
46:55It blocks the inflammation, which is exactly
what you want to trigger the adaptation of
46:59hypertrophy.
47:00But Tuesday is really about getting the maximum
effect of heat exposure and cold exposure.
47:06I've done multiple episodes on each one of
those, I learned about deliberate cold exposure
47:10from you, so thank you, Tim.
47:13I do a protocol which is pretty intense, designed
to amplify growth hormone, stimulate a bunch
47:19of positive, mood-promoting hormones that
last not just days but weeks, say the literature,
47:26and just get better at it.
47:27So I'll do 20 minutes of sauna, hot sauna.
47:29Tim Ferriss: What does hot mean?
47:30Andrew Huberman: I'm up to 260 now.
47:33But I worked up to that.
47:34You can check out the Banya, I'll give a plug
to these folks, they're Spa 88 on Wall Street
47:38in New York.
47:39They are amazing.
47:40They are incredible.
47:41They have a hot Russian sauna.
47:43Tim Ferriss: They have very hot sauna.
47:44Andrew Huberman: And Archimedes Banya in San
Francisco is great.
47:47A couple of notes about that one, it's clothing
optional.
47:49I wear my swim trunks.
47:51Tim Ferriss: Boo!
47:52How are you going to show off those glutes
you're working so hard on?
47:56Andrew Huberman: But it is, so just know what
you're getting into, it's co-ed and clothing
47:59optional.
48:00And it is in Hunters Point, Bayview, which
is a rough neighborhood.
48:03Tim Ferriss: Yeah, I wouldn't go for a jog.
48:05Andrew Huberman: Yeah, don't leave anything
in your car, but don't do that anywhere in
48:07San Francisco now.
48:09So 20 minutes in the sauna, very hot, three
to five minutes in the cold plunge up to the
48:15neck, back into the sauna for 20 minutes,
back into the cold plunge for three to five
48:18minutes, back into the sauna for 20 minutes,
back into the coal plunge for three to five
48:23minutes.
48:24It's work, but it's amazing in the sense that
you recover very well from the leg day, you
48:33generate all the hormone neurotransmitter
type of adaptations that one wants, and you
48:37get very, very good at tolerating heat and
cold.
48:40And I should mention, during these times,
if there isn't someone else there, I'm listening
48:43to books, I'm thinking, I'm putting this work
and time to use, so there's multiple things
48:48going on there.
48:49Then Wednesday, I do one of two things.
48:52I'm either going to do a shorter duration
than Sunday cardiovascular training workout,
48:58so I'm thinking about five minutes of warmup
and then about 25 to 30 minutes of usually
49:04running for me, where I'm just trying to get
out and cover as much distance as I can at
49:08a fast clip but steady, so I'm not sprint,
stop, sprint, stop.
49:12That's typically what I'll do on Wednesday.
49:13Although, if my legs are still a little bit
sore, and here the body builders are just
49:18going to go, "Ugh," they're going to scoff,
I train what I call torso.
49:23What do I do?
49:24I try to get pushing through the chest and
shoulders, I'm trying to pull for the back.
49:29I already got my lower back with the glute-ham
raises, so what I tend to do is overhead shoulder
49:35presses after a warmup, two to three sets,
working sets, or maybe four.
49:39I like ring dips and dips these days, those
are hard for me, but I do two or three work
49:44sets of those, so chest, shoulders.
49:47And I'm going to upset some people here, but
I don't tend to train back every week, I do
49:52it every other week because just I have some
genetic abnormality where those grow really
49:56easily and I can throw proportions off really
quickly.
49:59But I might do three or four sets of max rep
chins slow, with slow, eccentric movements,
50:05the lowering as well.
50:06Tim Ferriss: Now, slow eccentric, four seconds,
10 seconds, what are we talking about?
50:10Andrew Huberman: Yeah, usually about four
or five seconds, and then slowly pulling up,
50:14contracting whatever muscle group.
50:15So all of the movements are done trying to
move as much weight as possible as quickly
50:19as possible on the concentric phase, and then
lowering it anywhere from two to four seconds,
50:25loading it like a spring and then trying to
explode.
50:26I want strength and I want explosiveness,
and some hypertrophy sneaks in because I'm
50:30working in that five to eight rep range.
50:34So that's what I call torso because it's chest,
shoulders, back, every other week I'll throw
50:39in those chins.
50:40And I think everyone has a muscle group like
this where if they train it just grows like
50:44a weed, but I want to keep proportions right,
strength proportions as well.
50:49And I do train my neck that day as well.
50:52I know you wrestled.
50:53I can tell very easily looking at somebody
whether or not they need neck work or not,
50:58if your neck comes down where your jaw is,
you don't need to do a lot of neck work, you
51:04don't look like a head placed on top of a
little neck.
51:08Laird Hamilton's neck is out to the lobes
of his ears, genuinely.
51:12Danny Way, great skateboarder too, he trains
his neck quite a lot.
51:15He broke his neck surfing years ago.
51:17So having a strong neck, why is that so important?
51:20Well, it's important because you want a strong
spine and it's the upper portion of your spine.
51:26The other thing that I notice that it does
is it completely changes my psychology to
51:30train my neck.
51:31I just naturally stand more upright, I find
it easier to look people in the eye, it's
51:35not hard for me to look people directly in
the eye when I speak to them, but I find my
51:38posture and presence is just better in a chair
or standing when I train my neck.
51:42And I think it's because my head, let's just
use the word again, it's not flaccid, falling
51:46of the chin towards the chest, that word just
freaks everybody out.
51:51You want flaccid feet, you don't want a flaccid
neck, so neck work is very important.
51:56Tim Ferriss: How do you work your neck?
51:59I've been thinking about it for decades, I
bought a four-way neck machine, and it's actually,
52:03I got it on β
Andrew Huberman: Wait, you got the full four-way
52:05neck machine?
52:06Tim Ferriss: I was going to get a Hammer or
one of these great, giant contraptions.
52:11And look, do your homework folks, because
you can hurt yourself on these things if you
52:15get too aggressive too quickly.
52:16I bought a four-way neck machine on Amazon
for 350 bucks.
52:20I was like, "You know what?
52:21Let me try this before spending five grand."
52:24Works great.
52:26Nothing fancy, but it works.
52:27Andrew Huberman: You have great proportions.
52:28Why do I say this?
52:30It's not just about aesthetics, it's about,
in general, balanced proportions are synonymous
52:35with balanced strength, which is synonymous
with not getting injured.
52:38One of the things that looks ridiculous and
frankly is ridiculous, you see these guys
52:42with big delts, wide shoulders, long clavicles,
and their head is placed on this little neck
52:49β
Tim Ferriss: It's just a popsicle on a stick.
52:50Andrew Huberman: And they look especially
ridiculous, there's no other word for it,
52:54in street clothes, it looks mutant, and not
in the good sense.
53:00So strong neck is great.
53:02Strong neck has helped me also avoid injuries
in a number of sports.
53:05It's life insurance if you do any kind of
martial art, or you drive a car.
53:10I've been rear-ended in a car and felt fine,
a little bit of neck soreness, but train the
53:14upper spine and lower spine.
53:16So I do some neck work at the end.
53:17And the way I do it is take a plate, wrap
it in a towel so you don't end up with an
53:22imprint of the weight number on your forehead,
and I usually lie on my side and I'll do somewhere
53:29in the 10- to 15-repetition range.
53:31I'll usually do one light warmup and then
three work sets.
53:34Tim Ferriss: How do you hold it on your head?
53:35Andrew Huberman: You just hold it with your
hand on your side.
53:38It also works your oblique somewhat.
53:39Tim Ferriss: So you're on a bench or on the
ground?
53:41Andrew Huberman: On a bench.
53:42You have to be careful, especially getting
into and out of the movement, that's how you
53:45often get injured.
53:47And then I'll lie on my stomach, and this
is probably the most important one, and I'll
53:50put the plate behind my head, again, wrapped
in a towel, and do head raises.
53:56You're trying to get your head sitting on
top of your shoulders as it's supposed to,
54:02because everyone now is bent over in this
C-shape.
54:04And no one's nerdy enough, except my good
friend Brian Mackenzie, who cares enough about
54:09his posture β shout out to Brian.
54:10He does amazing work in breath work and human
performance.
54:13When he texts, he uses his phone up near his
eyes.
54:15Tim Ferriss: I've seen that.
54:16Andrew Huberman: It's so good.
54:17He's like, duh, duh, duh.
54:18No one else does that, Brian.
54:20So the neck work comes at the end, but is
absolutely critical.
54:24And whenever I don't do it for a week or two
out of laziness or just some other reason,
54:29I start getting postural things you start
noticing elsewhere in your body.
54:33Tim Ferriss: I find, I don't think it's placebo
because it's not something that I expect,
54:38or maybe it is now, but not initially, fewer
headaches, just better circulation and better
54:48mobility also.
54:50Especially if you're spending a lot of time
in front of a computer.
54:54My rotation, even though I'm not actively
training with resistance, the rotational aspect,
54:59left, right, turning your head, the mobility
of the neck in all dimensions and the movement
55:05of the head seems to improve as well for me.
55:08And for folks, just one option I want to throw
out there, if you train with someone or can
55:12train with someone, manual resistance β
Andrew Huberman: With a towel, some will say.
55:16Tim Ferriss: With a towel or just pressure
on the head, and doing it really slowly, super
55:20slow style, 10 seconds, 10 seconds is very
effective also.
55:26Andrew Huberman: I can't overstate the importance
of neck training.
55:29Now for women who often don't want the aesthetic
of a larger neck, just use, I would say, lighter
55:37weights or hand-based resistance.
55:39You still want that strength and balance.
55:42Some women might want a big neck, but, in
general, the two things that can β and you
55:46put some of this in The 4-Hour Body.
55:49Tim Ferriss: Throw a wig on Laird Hamilton,
that's my type.
55:52I'm just putting it out there, ladies.
55:54Andrew Huberman: In terms of aesthetics, the
two things that I think can really throw off
56:00the most commonly desired female aesthetic
by women from what they tell me, because I've
56:05trained with a number of women, is excessive
trap work, upper trap work cause rounded shoulders
56:10and then larger neck.
56:12Some people might want that, but in general
that tends to be avoided.
56:16For guys, I think that neck work, it's so
essential, and for women it's essential for
56:23a strength and protection of the joints reason.
56:27I will also say this, and anyone who wants
to challenge me on this will do it accordingly,
56:32it actually increases your confidence.
56:35And the reason is when you're upright, you
embody a different stance.
56:39I'm a big believer that the physical stances
we embody have everything to do with the psychological
56:44stances we embody and vice versa.
56:46So it's not just about standing up straight,
being able to stand up straight, look people
56:49in the eye, it's something that is assisted
by actually having a head that isn't flopping
56:54forward all the time.
56:56So this is a real thing from a number of standpoints.
56:59So if, for whatever reason, I do the cardio
workout that I mentioned, the 25 or 30 minutes
57:05of running, that's what I do, but some people
might do it on the AssaultBike or something
57:09like that, or cycling, or rower, on the Wednesday.
57:13Then I'll do that weight workout I just described,
torso, on Thursday, or I'll swap them.
57:18So there's some flexibility built into the
week, travel, et cetera.
57:21By the way, the cardiovascular workouts can
be done in the morning or the evening, but
57:24I always prefer to do them in the morning
and just get it done with.
57:28Then Friday is a really important day because
Friday is the day that I do a short workout,
57:34usually only about three minutes of warmup
and about 12 minutes of training, and the
57:39goal is to get my heart rate as high as I
possibly can, I learned this from Andy Galpin.
57:44Just increasing VO2 max, getting those really
fastuous muscle fibers.
57:48My favorite way to do this is I'll get on
the AssaultBike, so the ones with the handles
57:52with the fan, which is not designed to keep
you cool, it's designed to create resistance,
57:56folks, and do 20 second on sprint, 10 second
rest, 20 second on, 10 second rest.
58:00Tim Ferriss: Tabata style.
58:01Andrew Huberman: Tabata type thing for six
to eight rounds.
58:04And then what I like to do is take a band
and tie it to something like a chin-up bar
58:08or something, and I'll squat down and jump,
and I'll do it as high jumping as I possibly
58:13can, but I actually control the eccentric.
58:15I'm holding the band as I come down.
58:18And so I learned from Peter Attia, I've learned
from Andy Galpin that our ability to jump
58:24and land is strongly correlated with physical
longevity.
58:28Or you could do broad jump.
58:29So you could do a bunch of broad jumps, you
could do some hit workout, and then I'm just
58:33showered and out the door to go do my work
or to work.
58:36So it's a really short workout.
58:38And then Saturday is the fun one because I
still enjoy this, I'll go into the gym in
58:44the morning, usually it's mid-morning, and
I'll do small muscle groups, biceps, triceps,
58:51rear delts.
58:52I'll do another tip and calf workout, a little
bit lighter than the one on leg day because
58:57leg day is coming in two days, and the next
day I'm doing that long hike.
59:01So that day is really to round out the smaller
muscle groups that need work.
59:05And I have a short torso, long arms, and so
torso muscles grow very easily for me, get
59:09stronger easily, long arms, but they require
a little bit more work, so I like to do a
59:12dedicated day for that.
59:14Same way, warmup plus two to four work sets
of two to three exercises.
59:20I always include dips at some point during
the week, bench dips, tricep extensions with
59:24cables, basic stuff, preacher curls, incline
curls, so very basic stuff.
59:29But I just want to backtrack one step because
I failed to say that Friday the idea is to
59:33get that VO2 max up.
59:34But guess what?
59:35It's also designed to indirectly hit the legs.
59:38We hit legs on Monday, and they've recovered.
59:41We now know that protein synthesis maximizes
after these training workouts at about 48
59:45hours and then starts to taper off.
59:47Now, you read that, you hear that a lot, especially
on social media, and people think you have
59:50to hit a muscle group every 48 hours.
59:52But no, you hold onto the protein synthesis,
you generate it for another couple of days,
59:56so that Friday sprint on the bike workout
or sprint on a field workout and jumping is
01:00:01indirectly targeting the quads and calves
and hamstrings.
01:00:06And so you're keeping them online for hypertrophy.
01:00:08So when you hear all this, you might think,
gosh, that's a lot of working out, but what
01:00:12we're really talking about is a long hike
with friends or family on Sunday or by oneself,
01:00:1790 minutes to three hours.
01:00:19You're talking about an hour workout on Monday
morning, you're talking about sitting in the
01:00:24sauna and cold on Tuesday, you're talking
about running for 20 or 30 minutes on Wednesday,
01:00:29you're talking about doing some dips and overhead
presses, maybe some chins and a little bit
01:00:34of neck work on Thursday, you're talking about
doing a 12-minute workout on Friday, and you're
01:00:41talking about going to the gym for an hour,
hour and 15 minutes, more casual β I don't
01:00:45want to call it what it is, but you could
call it a vanity workout.
01:00:48I called it that to Joe Rogan and he was like,
"That's ridiculous, bicep is key muscle group."
01:00:53And I was like, "Give me an example."
01:00:55And he's like, "Well, when you're grappling
and you're about to choke somebody out."
01:00:58And I was like, "Okay, well, that's you."
01:00:59But he's absolutely right.
01:01:01Actually, I chipped my tooth really hard once,
I was trying to fix something with a wrench,
01:01:06and you're pulling with your bicep and your
arm towards you and it broke loose and chipped
01:01:10my tooth.
01:01:11Keep your head out of the way.
01:01:12Tim Ferriss: Good thing you train your neck.
01:01:13Andrew Huberman: Yeah, this is mostly a falsey,
this one front tooth.
01:01:15Exactly.
01:01:16Good thing.
01:01:17I could have knocked myself out.
01:01:18But there's a lot of things that a bicep is
good for, forearm strength is good for, so
01:01:22Joe's absolutely right.
01:01:23But I think that when you look at all of that,
it's not that much time in the gym, you can
01:01:27do all of that at home.
01:01:29There are ways to do the leg workout even
at home or in natural terrain for the hikes
01:01:33and things.
01:01:34And so that's the schedule.
01:01:36And again, if you think about that schedule,
each day you're accomplishing something, endurance,
01:01:41leg strength, cold and heat adaptation, and
all the neural stuff that goes with that,
01:01:45torso, to keep the torso strong.
01:01:48But here again, and we can say the torso work
is indirectly hitting biceps and triceps.
01:01:53Then being able to run a couple miles is a
good skill.
01:01:57And what you find is that if you trained your
legs properly and you give them enough rest,
01:02:00and the cold and heat really helped too, you
are so strong on that 20- or 30-minute run,
01:02:05your tibs are strong, no floppy feet, no back
pain, you're running with vigor and you go,
01:02:12"Wow, this is great."
01:02:13And so what I've noticed in the last 24 months
or so is that I continued to get stronger
01:02:18and better in each of these areas, and supposedly
that's not supposed to happen.
01:02:23I'm 47.
01:02:24Attia the other day said, "You and I were
both far more physically robust when we were
01:02:28in our teens."
01:02:29I was like, "Speak for yourself.
01:02:30I was getting injured all the time.
01:02:31My body hurt.
01:02:33I was unhappy."
01:02:34Then again, I was skateboarding then, so I
was slamming a lot.
01:02:36But I find that this routine has really helped
me because I think it takes into account the
01:02:43slower recovery, that is just me.
01:02:45My nervous system doesn't recover that quickly.
01:02:48And it also embraces the fact that our nervous
system and musculoskeletal system can train
01:02:54for different adaptations simultaneously across
the week.
01:02:58Now the one cap on everything that's vital,
and again here a hat tip to Charles Poliquin,
01:03:03is if you start training for longer than 60
minutes with resistance training, cortisol
01:03:09levels go up, you start feeling lousy, you're
not sleeping well, or you find you can't sleep
01:03:13enough and you don't recover.
01:03:15So keeping the workouts relatively short has
really helped.
01:03:18And then the final thing is that I'm a scientist
slash, I guess now, podcaster and I'm not
01:03:24interested in being a competitive athlete,
so I don't want to spend all my time training.
01:03:28I really want to be able to get the most out
of my training routine to feel much better
01:03:33than I would otherwise when I'm doing cognitive
work.
01:03:36And I'm a big believer that this workout schedule
captures most, if not all of the neural circuits,
01:03:42that are wanted or one would want to activate.
01:03:45Perhaps the one thing missing from it is there
isn't anything in there that's really about
01:03:48dynamic movement in multiple planes, I'm not
doing jiu-jitsu, I sometimes play badminton
01:03:54or something, badminton is fun.
01:03:56I'll do an hour of play type stuff, non-competitive,
low stake stuff, big fan of the book Play
01:04:02It Away.
01:04:03I think I learned about that book from your
podcast.
01:04:04Tim Ferriss: Yeah.
01:04:05Andrew Huberman: Charlie β
Tim Ferriss: Charlie Hoehn.
01:04:07Andrew Huberman: Having an hour a week where
you're not trying to get fitter, you're not
01:04:10trying to burn calories or accomplish any
adaptation, you're just trying to play and
01:04:14enjoy your ability to engage in low stakes,
maybe competitive, but generally low stakes
01:04:21type movement where you're very focused, which
is how I define play.
01:04:25That's also great, but that's not really exercise.
01:04:29That's play.
01:04:30Tim Ferriss: There's a difference between,
sometimes, recreation and exercise if we're
01:04:35talking about provoking adaptations.
01:04:37So I just want to underscore a few things.
01:04:38One is you talked about nervous system or
central nervous system, CNS recovery, which
01:04:44is I just want to make note of that because
I think a lot of folks think in terms of muscular
01:04:51recovery but not nervous system recovery.
01:04:54And depending on what you're doing, certainly
that's very important.
01:04:59Question on a few things that I just took
notes on.
01:05:04So Ben Patrick, Knees Over Toes, I might need
to connect with him at some point.
01:05:08Andrew Huberman: Oh, yeah, he's terrific.
01:05:09Tim Ferriss: I have questions about tib work,
but before I get to that, maybe you can answer
01:05:14the question that I have.
01:05:15You mentioned Nordic curls in passing.
01:05:18What the hell are Nordic curls?
01:05:19Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
01:05:20Nordics are a great semi-substitute for the
glute-ham raise.
01:05:24The glute-ham raise allows you to fix your
feet and then put your head down towards the
01:05:29floor and go up into a back raise and then
into what's effectively a hamstring curl.
01:05:34It hits the whole posterior chain and the
lower back.
01:05:38And Nordic curls are when you either brace
your heels underneath a heavy piece of equipment,
01:05:43or you use a lifting belt and strap yourself
to a bench or someone strong enough or heavy
01:05:48enough holds your ankles down.
01:05:50And you're lowering down and you're touching
your hands to the floor and coming back up.
01:05:55Or you can do the Ben Patrick, Ben Bruno.
01:05:57Ben Bruno's another excellent Instagram trainer
and professional trainer.
01:06:02He trains Justin Timberlake and a bunch of
other kind of famous β not kind of famous
01:06:07people.
01:06:08Justin Timberlake's not kind of famous.
01:06:09He's famous.
01:06:10And he can do the cookie challenge, which
is to put a cookie in your mouth and dip it
01:06:13in milk without putting your hands to the
floor.
01:06:15Tim Ferriss: That's incredibly hard.
01:06:16Andrew Huberman: It's interesting.
01:06:17Ben is deceptively strong because he's not
that large, but he's very, very strong.
01:06:25BenBrunoTraining is his handle.
01:06:27Tim Ferriss: Cue break dancers.
01:06:28You want to see some strong people who are
deceptive.
01:06:31B-Boys, B-Girls.
01:06:32Andrew Huberman: So Nordic curls are great.
01:06:34There are now machines that β or an apparatus
you can buy where you can fix your heels under
01:06:39something, do Nordic curls.
01:06:41Even a portable one for when you travel that
goes under the door.
01:06:44Ben Patrick, AKA Knees Over Toes Guy, he has
a system called ATG training.
01:06:48I confess, I didn't subscribe to ATG because
I've got what I need now.
01:06:53But a bunch of those portable equipment type
things are available through him.
01:07:01And I think he's really changed the way that
I think about how the whole body moves and
01:07:05works.
01:07:06He insists that he can get me dunking a basketball,
which, who knows?
01:07:09Maybe that should be the challenge before
our next conversation.
01:07:11Tim Ferriss: So Nordic curls, unbeknownst
to me, because there's some other term for
01:07:17this particular exercise, but I have a piece
of Sorinex equipment that actually sits my
01:07:22garage and is for this exact exercise.
01:07:24Andrew Huberman: I think if I had to pick
just three β I will never just pick three.
01:07:29But if I had to pick three exercises to do
and I could only do those, it would be glute-ham
01:07:34raise/Nordic curl, something for the posterior
chain, it would be ring dips because then
01:07:42I could throw in some leg raises too, or something
like that.
01:07:44I could make it a multi-compound movement
and I would sprint.
01:07:49If that's the only thing I could do, that's
what I would do.
01:07:53Put me in a small prison cell, knock on wood,
let's hope that doesn't happen.
01:07:57That's what I ask for.
01:07:58Tim Ferriss: Scientist/podcaster/inmate.
01:08:01Andrew Huberman: Hopefully not.
01:08:03Listen, we talked last time, I've been behind
locked doors before.
01:08:07It's not an experience I want to recreate.
01:08:08Tim Ferriss: Not fun.
01:08:09Andrew Huberman: Not fun.
01:08:10Tim Ferriss: Not an indoorist.
01:08:11Andrew Huberman: No.
01:08:12Tim Ferriss: So on the tib work side, this
may be a question for Ben or someone more
01:08:14qualified, but one of the challenges that
I've had for decades: shin splints.
01:08:22And my dorsiflexion is actually seemingly,
from a strength perspective, pretty decent.
01:08:28Ankle mobility, also pretty decent.
01:08:30Although the left ankle's been broken so many
times that it's a little crunchy.
01:08:34But I have done training with this fellow
named Jerzy Gregorek, who holds multiple world
01:08:39records in Olympic weightlifting, or he held.
01:08:41Andrew Huberman: Also deceptively strong.
01:08:42Tim Ferriss: Incredibly strong.
01:08:44Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
01:08:45I met him and his wife.
01:08:46Tim Ferriss: She also has world records in
Olympic weightlifting.
01:08:49And just to give you an idea, folks, he's
got to be in his, I want to say, he's probably
01:08:5367, 68 now, and he can do a full barbell snatch,
ass-to-heels while on top of an INDO BOARD,
01:09:00which are those balance boards on top of a
cylinder.
01:09:02Andrew Huberman: Sounds very dangerous.
01:09:04Tim Ferriss: And I don't recommend trying
to replicate that.
01:09:06But he's quite a physical specimen.
01:09:09So the point of all of that is that my ankle
mobility's pretty good.
01:09:14My dorsiflexion strength seems pretty good,
but I always feel like the front of my shins
01:09:19are about to explode.
01:09:21Someone could just pop them like a balloon
with a pin.
01:09:23And I've not figured out a way to address
this.
01:09:27Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
01:09:28I vote tib work.
01:09:29I used to have terrible shin splints.
01:09:30Tim Ferriss: Okay.
01:09:31Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
01:09:32Terrible shin splints, and also pain in my
shins just from skateboarding, taking so many
01:09:34shiners as they're called, from doing a little
bit of Thai boxing when I was in high school
01:09:39and college and thinking I was being smart
by conditioning my shins with coke bottles
01:09:46like I heard they did it over in Thailand.
01:09:47Just made a mess of my shins.
01:09:48The tib raises have changed everything.
01:09:51Also, I used to think I had flat feet, "I
have flat feet.
01:09:55That's the source of my problem."
01:09:57And I'd do all this toe strengthening, foot
strengthening stuff.
01:09:59All these people in the yoga community in
San Francisco were like, "Oh, I'm going to
01:10:02train your feet."
01:10:03Turned out, I don't have flat feet.
01:10:04It turns out that my tibs were weak and so
the foot wasn't resting in the right position.
01:10:11So for me, it's been a game changer.
01:10:14Also, you don't need any specialized equipment.
01:10:16There is that movement of resting your shoulders
against a wall.
01:10:20So you're in a plank, you make your body rigid,
your heels are on the ground about a foot
01:10:24out in front of you, and then you're touching
your toes down to the floor and then back
01:10:28up.
01:10:29And you're just doing that while you're on
the phone.
01:10:30You do 25 or 30 repetitions of that, your
tibs will be screaming.
01:10:33Tim Ferriss: So it's as if you're basically
a statue.
01:10:36You can't articulate any of your joints minus
your ankles.
01:10:40And you're just standing, what, like a foot
and a half, two feet away and then kind of
01:10:44β
Andrew Huberman: Shoulders against the wall.
01:10:45Tim Ferriss: Getting your shoulders to the
wall, but you're leaning like a book against
01:10:48a bookend.
01:10:50And then moving your toes.
01:10:51Andrew Huberman: Yup.
01:10:52Tim Ferriss: All right.
01:10:53I'm in.
01:10:54Count me in.
01:10:55I am also, in the, apparently, I think this
is possible, the lying to myself about the
01:10:59flat feet part.
01:11:00Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
01:11:01I was convinced I have flat feet.
01:11:02You want to hear something really wild that
has nothing to do with fitness, but has everything
01:11:05to do with metabolism and the obesity crisis?
01:11:07Tim Ferriss: Wild metabolism and obesity crisis,
tell me.
01:11:09Andrew Huberman: And tibs.
01:11:10There's a very important paper published from
the University of Houston this last year where
01:11:15they had people sitting for a couple of hours
and every two or three seconds they would
01:11:22keep their toe on the ground and they would
do what was effectively a seated calf raise.
01:11:25Think about the jumpy kid in class or when
you've had too much coffee.
01:11:29They're doing it slowly and they're measuring
the contraction of the soleus, the longer,
01:11:35flatter muscle of the calf underneath the
gastro.
01:11:38Turns out that muscle is very unique.
01:11:40It does not use the same fuel sources as other
muscles in the same way.
01:11:45It's not so much a glycogen-dependent muscle.
01:11:48It is designed, of course, to carry you very
long distances over β it's an endurance
01:11:54muscle.
01:11:55They had people do this while seated for a
couple hours a day, and they looked at glucose
01:12:00uptake and they looked at overall insulin
management, and there was a significant and
01:12:06meaningful improvement in insulin sensitivity.
01:12:11Now, this is not about caloric burn.
01:12:14This is about essentially doing exercise while
seated.
01:12:17Now I put out some stuff about this on social
media and people understandably laugh, like,
01:12:22"Oh, that's ridiculous."
01:12:23First of all, they call it a soleus pushup
in the study.
01:12:26You're like, "That's a seated calf raise."
01:12:27But most people don't know what a seated calf
raise is.
01:12:29So gym rats, you're only laughing to yourselves.
01:12:32I throw myself in that.
01:12:34I mean, it's true.
01:12:35Tim Ferriss: Most of the internet.
01:12:36Andrew Huberman: Yeah, exactly.
01:12:37Exactly.
01:12:38But what's very interesting is this is something
that a lot of people can do who are trying
01:12:44to improve their metabolic status.
01:12:47Of course, they should also exercise, but
as the paper describes, it's no surprise why
01:12:52this works.
01:12:53Were we quote/unquote "designed" to walk around
more or move more during the day?
01:12:57I don't know.
01:12:58I wasn't consulted at the design phase, but
we were definitely moving around a lot more
01:13:03than we probably are now.
01:13:05But it's very interesting that β this muscle's
small.
01:13:07It's only one percent of the body's total
musculature, can account for well over 15
01:13:13percent β well, over, it depends on the
person, but at least 15 percent of your total
01:13:17energy expenditure during the day.
01:13:18Tim Ferriss: That's insane.
01:13:19Andrew Huberman: So if you're on a plane like
this and you're bouncing your knee or doing
01:13:21this thing, it's actually a meaningful β it's
not a replacement for exercise, but in terms
01:13:26of its metabolic impact, is meaningful.
01:13:29I find that really interesting and perhaps
of all the things that we'll discuss today,
01:13:35if you're unwilling to try that, then your
bar for entry is just way too high.
01:13:39Tim Ferriss: So have a few extra cups of coffee,
folks.
01:13:43Bounce those knees.
01:13:44Andrew Huberman: Exactly.
01:13:45And don't get on kids about bouncing their
knees in class, teachers.
01:13:47I was one such a kid.
01:13:48Tim Ferriss: All right, so we've covered a
bunch of exercise and a number of things as
01:13:56fundamental pillars that you've doubled down
on.
01:14:01Anything that you've changed your mind on?
01:14:03Andrew Huberman: Well, one of them was the
fact that I always believed that I had flat
01:14:08feet.
01:14:09I also believed that we couldn't obtain multiple
exercise adaptations at once.
01:14:13I'm convinced we can because I track my numbers.
01:14:15I'm not super neurotic, but I keep a handwritten
training journal.
01:14:19Or at the end of the day, I generally can
remember what I did in the gym and didn't
01:14:23do, or on a run.
01:14:24And I'm improving over time.
01:14:26So that's great.
01:14:27I thought I would have had hit my peak ability
and it was all downhill from here, but I feel
01:14:33much better.
01:14:34Tim Ferriss: How do you track, if you track
the Tabata, for instance?
01:14:37Are you looking at wattage?
01:14:38Are you looking at anything?
01:14:39Or is it more subjective?
01:14:40Andrew Huberman: I tend to add another round
or two.
01:14:42I just do a little bit more work or go a little
bit harder.
01:14:44I tend like to do things pretty subjectively
when it comes to exercise.
01:14:49My calendar will say, for instance, for legs,
it'll say tib, calf, ham, quad.
01:14:55And I'll put anywhere from level one to level
10.
01:14:57Level 10 would be the workout with forced
reps and drop sets, just all out.
01:15:01I rarely, if ever, do those.
01:15:03But typically I'm trying to make that workout
at least a level 7.5 to nine.
01:15:07And generally, the shorter workouts are the
harder ones.
01:15:10Occasionally, just because of schedules or
I'm not feeling great, I'll do that Wednesday
01:15:15run and it'll end up being a 15-minute jog
or something, and I'll just say, "Level five.
01:15:21Lame," or something like that, like I didn't
β or something like that.
01:15:24And then push a little bit harder the next
day.
01:15:26So I'm kind of my own coach.
01:15:28I'm sort of observing myself rather than getting
really deep into the metrics.
01:15:31But I'm always trying to put a little bit
more weight on the bar, go a little bit slower
01:15:35with the repetition, or add a set or a rep
or two, or all three.
01:15:41Tim Ferriss: So let's hone in on sleep, my
perennial favorite and the bane of my well-being,
01:15:49depending on the quality.
01:15:51But last we spoke, I remember you spoke about,
I think it was magnesium threonate, apigenin,
01:15:58and there may have been one or two or two
other β
01:15:59Andrew Huberman: Theanine.
01:16:00Tim Ferriss: β Lucky Charms in there.
01:16:01Andrew Huberman: Theanine.
01:16:02Tim Ferriss: Right, theanine.
01:16:03Andrew Huberman: Yep.
01:16:04Tim Ferriss: Are those still the holy trinity
for your sleep, or do you have other things
01:16:07that you've added, things you've subtracted?
01:16:10What is your current cocktail?
01:16:11With the understanding that as much as people
want to fix everything with silver bullets,
01:16:18light exposure in the morning, exercise, all
of these are contributors to good quality
01:16:24sleep.
01:16:25Andrew Huberman: I still use the same sleep
stack.
01:16:27So it's magnesium threonate, spelled T-H-R-E-O-N-A-T-E,
theanine, and apigenin.
01:16:35And I've added every once in a while, I'll
take 900 milligrams of myo-inositol.
01:16:41Myo-inositol has a rich literature associated
β
01:16:44Tim Ferriss: Interesting name.
01:16:45Myo as in muscle?
01:16:46Why myo?
01:16:47M-Y-O.
01:16:48Andrew Huberman: That's a good question.
01:16:49Yeah, it must be.
01:16:50Tim Ferriss: It must be.
01:16:51Andrew Huberman: So it's amino acid, but it
can be a neurotransmitter mimetic, extensive
01:16:56literature on inositol for improving insulin
sensitivity.
01:16:59There's also something called D-chiro inositol,
which is important for female fertility.
01:17:04We can talk about that.
01:17:06But what I've added in the 900 milligrams
of myo-inositol for is I do sometimes, like
01:17:11many people, wake up at three in the morning
to use the restroom.
01:17:16And although there's a simple solution to
that that I just recently learned that really
01:17:19works, and I'll share it in a moment β
Tim Ferriss: Catheter.
01:17:22Andrew Huberman: β it helps me fall back
asleep after that.
01:17:24And I am tracking my sleep.
01:17:26Because I sleep on an Eight Sleep.
01:17:28And that has good sleep tracking ability.
01:17:31What Attia has taught me, that a lot of the
wristbands and rings for tracking sleep, while
01:17:36they can be quite good and are quite good,
WHOOPs and Ouras being the two most popular
01:17:40ones, they can get movement wrong because
of movement of limbs.
01:17:45Whereas the Eight Sleep seems to really capture
slow wave sleep, rapid eye movement, sleep
01:17:50ratios really well.
01:17:51Tim Ferriss: Yeah, I use both Eight Sleep
and Oura at the moment.
01:17:54Andrew Huberman: Great.
01:17:56Yeah.
01:17:57So the myo-inositol, it has helped quite a
bit with that going back to sleep thing, one
01:18:01way to not wake up to urinate so much in the
middle of the night I learned from a colleague
01:18:06is it turns out that it's not just how much
fluid you drink, which dictates whether or
01:18:10not you need to urinate because that's sort
of a duh.
01:18:13It's also how quickly you ingest that fluid
if you gulp fluid down because of the way
01:18:19fluid is absorbed, it actually, in the kidney,
and the way filtration occurs in the kidney,
01:18:23the way it signals to the bladder is that
it makes you have to go to the bathroom fairly
01:18:27urgently.
01:18:28So if you have your final beverage of the
day, sip it, don't gulp it.
01:18:33For morning hydration, the opposite is true.
01:18:35You actually want to gulp down quite a lot
of liquid in the morning.
01:18:37You can absorb quite a lot of liquid in the
morning.
01:18:39I'm reading this really nerdy review in Nature,
it has these wonderful review series on circadian
01:18:46rhythms and the kidney.
01:18:47Your kidney is not the same organ first thing
in the morning as it is at night.
01:18:51So this is what circadian biologists have
been shouting for a long time, every organ
01:18:55is this way.
01:18:56But you want to hydrate pretty heavily first
thing in the morning, and then over the day
01:18:59you can titrate off that liquid.
01:19:01Tim Ferriss: So I'm going to ask you to pick
some favorite children here.
01:19:05So you've got the magnesium threonate, L-theanine,
apigenin, which am I understanding correctly,
01:19:13that is effectively chamomile tea on steroids?
01:19:17Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
01:19:18High concentration chamomile extract.
01:19:19Tim Ferriss: All right, got it.
01:19:20And then the myo-inositol β
Andrew Huberman: Myo-inositol.
01:19:24Tim Ferriss: All right.
01:19:25Andrew Huberman: 900 milligrams, which it's
a big pill, but turns out to be pretty low
01:19:28dose for insulin sensitivity, and for depression,
they give people up to five grams of myo-inositol
01:19:34a day.
01:19:35But it's a mild sedative.
01:19:37So I don't know how people get away with that.
01:19:39I'll take the four of those.
01:19:40I will occasionally be so fired β
Tim Ferriss: Pop five Trazodone before my
01:19:44workout, yeah.
01:19:45Andrew Huberman: Occasionally, I'm so tired
that I'll wake up with the pills in my hand
01:19:47or on the nightstand.
01:19:48So I don't think I'm dependent on them in
any way.
01:19:51Tim Ferriss: The question is: if you could
only choose two of those?
01:20:02Andrew Huberman: Oh, easy.
01:20:03Mag threonate and apigenin.
01:20:05Tim Ferriss: Okay.
01:20:06Yeah.
01:20:07Got it.
01:20:08Andrew Huberman: Theanine is not going to
be good for people that have very robust dreams
01:20:10or nightmares because it will increase how
vivid your dreams are.
01:20:15So night walkers, night terrors, that kind
of thing.
01:20:19For those of you that have sleepwalking, night
walkers β
01:20:22Tim Ferriss: Skinwalkers, beware.
01:20:23Andrew Huberman: Sorry.
01:20:24And I didn't mean to interrupt you.
01:20:26This is something I'm working, my colleague
at Stanford, Carol Dweck, told me that it's
01:20:31a sign of enthusiasm for the conversation.
01:20:33Tim Ferriss: Oh, yeah, no.
01:20:34Andrew Huberman: So I apologize.
01:20:35Tim Ferriss: Oh, are you kidding?
01:20:36I'm not going to throw stones in my glass
house here.
01:20:39I interrupt constantly.
01:20:40But you were talking about the kidneys, you
were saying not the same organ in the morning
01:20:46as it is at night.
01:20:47This is what circadian biologists have been
screaming from the rooftops, and now that's
01:20:53coming home to roost.
01:20:54And these papers that you're reading, or maybe
it's a meta-analysis, I don't know.
01:20:59And you were saying sipping water at night
or just slower intake.
01:21:03Gulping in the morning, and I threw your train
of thought off the rails.
01:21:08Andrew Huberman: All good.
01:21:09I mean, basically you want to look at the
first half of your day very differently than
01:21:11the second half of your day.
01:21:13Morning part of your day, you want sunlight
or bright artificial light.
01:21:19Why?
01:21:20It increases cortisol 50 percent above baseline.
01:21:22You want cortisol high early in the day and
you want it low, low later in the day.
01:21:27Not because it disrupts sleep, but because
late-shifted cortisol is associated with depression.
01:21:32Screws up your immune system to have it late-shifted.
01:21:33Beautiful work from Bob Sapolsky and David
Spiegel at Stanford School of Medicine have
01:21:38shown that.
01:21:39So hydration, caffeine, sunlight, movement,
bright light if you can't get sunlight early
01:21:46in the day.
01:21:47You really want what are called the catecholamines,
which are dopamine, epinephrine, norepinephrine.
01:21:51And you want cortisol, which is a glucocorticoid,
elevated in the early part of the day, and
01:21:57that's what's going to give you energy, focus,
alertness, all that great stuff throughout
01:22:00the day.
01:22:01And then you want to taper that stuff off
as the day goes on.
01:22:04Now the recent data have shown that if you
want to improve your rapid eye movement sleep
01:22:08β why would you want to do that?
01:22:09Well, rapid eye movement sleep is when you
get the unpacking of emotions from previous-day
01:22:15memories.
01:22:16This is your β
Tim Ferriss: Yeah, read or listen to our mutual
01:22:19friend Matt Walker.
01:22:20Andrew Huberman: Right.
01:22:21How do you get more rapid eye movement sleep?
01:22:23High-intensity interval training early part
of the day or cycling appears to greatly improve
01:22:29different stages of sleep as well, compared
to running.
01:22:31Although running will do it as well.
01:22:32Tim Ferriss: Why is that?
01:22:33Andrew Huberman: I don't know.
01:22:34I think it has to do with the central pattern
generator thing.
01:22:37That high-intensity interval training, when
you're peddling on the bike or you're sprinting,
01:22:40so it's repetitive, but it's not repetitive
for long enough that you're engaging certain
01:22:43brain circuits.
01:22:46And it's going to deplete different neurotransmitter
systems.
01:22:49It's going to engage the endorphin system
rather than β
01:22:51Tim Ferriss: I wonder if it's also a study
bias in the sense that it's so much easier
01:22:56to get your slaves, AKA, like, undergrads
or grad students or whoever recruited in a
01:23:03university setting to sit on a bike.
01:23:06So if you have a hundred studies with bikes
and you have five studies with running that
01:23:11maybe it's a selection bias in some respect
because there's just such a higher volume
01:23:16of studies.
01:23:17Andrew Huberman: I don't know.
01:23:18I don't know.
01:23:19I love bicycling when I can be upright.
01:23:22Think your Dutch bicycle, moving through a
city, seeing things, optic flow, which we
01:23:26know shuts down the amygdala to some extent,
suppresses activity in the amygdala.
01:23:29It's beautiful.
01:23:30You see things, you see people.
01:23:32How anyone in the world could want to be hunched
over in a partial seat position and pedaling
01:23:37as one is on a road bike.
01:23:39I have zero minus one interest in doing that.
01:23:43Sounds horrible.
01:23:44And then I heard it gives you all these prostate
issues and it can give erectile dysfunction
01:23:49from the pain.
01:23:50They now put grooves in the seats because
β I just think, why would anyone be a cyclist?
01:23:54This is terrible.
01:23:55Tim Ferriss: Turns out having a pool cue shoved
into your perennium for hours at a time isn't
01:23:58good for you.
01:23:59Andrew Huberman: No, hunched over, like a
seat.
01:24:01And I realize that I have many friends who
are triathletes and cyclists, so I realize
01:24:04there's really an allure there.
01:24:06Moving fast through space feels really good,
but also the danger of cars β so riding
01:24:11a bicycle recreationally to me makes sense,
as does walking or running or skateboarding
01:24:16or whatever.
01:24:17But to me, cycling hunched over like that
just seems like a dreadful form of exercise.
01:24:21But that's just me.
01:24:23Tim Ferriss: So let's go from the dreadful
to the sublime perhaps.
01:24:28We mentioned a couple of supplements, and
I don't want to fixate on that, but I follow
01:24:33my own curiosity here.
01:24:35And there's a list here.
01:24:36So on the omegas, because we discussed omega-3
fatty acids, EPA/DHA, and I increased my intake.
01:24:49I'm so curious to know.
01:24:50Because I do observe, seemingly, a very consistent
improvement in mood and sleep.
01:24:57However, I've tried multiple brands and I've
tried to do the homework and look at the various
01:25:04certificates of analysis to make sure that
I'm not eating rancid garbage.
01:25:09I end up getting mild nausea after a week
of, I suppose, higher intake.
01:25:15Maybe if I'm taking, I might be getting the
amount off, but maybe two grams total, something
01:25:22like that.
01:25:23Andrew Huberman: In liquid or capsule form?
01:25:24Tim Ferriss: In capsule form.
01:25:25Andrew Huberman: With food or without food?
01:25:27Tim Ferriss: That's a great question.
01:25:29I probably wasn't even paying attention, although
I tend to take fat with food.
01:25:35So probably with food.
01:25:36Or maybe just before food.
01:25:38I'd be curious to know anyone on the internet,
if you're listening to this, if you've experienced
01:25:43anything similar.
01:25:44Because I see the benefits and then let's
just call it five to seven days in, I'd just
01:25:48get this low-grade nausea, almost like a motion
sickness.
01:25:53And then I stop for a washout period and then
I'm fine.
01:25:57And I'm like, "God."
01:25:58Andrew Huberman: So you know it's the fish
oil.
01:25:59Tim Ferriss: A bummer.
01:26:00Yeah.
01:26:01Andrew Huberman: There's obviously some great
high quality fish oils out there.
01:26:05For liquid, the Carlson's brands, the ones
that are lemon-flavored to make them less
01:26:10fishy, it's going to be the most cost-effective
way to get fish oil.
01:26:14It has to be refrigerated after opening, but
that's definitely the most cost-effective
01:26:18way.
01:26:19And here we do have a supplement affiliate
for the podcast, and it's not them, but that's
01:26:24just the truth.
01:26:25Tim Ferriss: What is your dosage target for
omega-3s or EPA specifically?
01:26:30Andrew Huberman: Minimum one gram per day
of EPA.
01:26:32Tim Ferriss: Okay.
01:26:34Andrew Huberman: Minimum, sometimes more.
01:26:35Tim Ferriss: Do you take it in one dose or
split doses?
01:26:37Andrew Huberman: It ends up being three capsules
with my big meal of the day, which tends to
01:26:44be a midday meal.
01:26:47And then I do take a tablespoon of the Carlson's
oil and people gasp when I say this, but I
01:26:53actually like it on my oatmeal with salt.
01:26:55Tim Ferriss: Oh.
01:26:56Andrew Huberman: It tastes good.
01:26:57Tim Ferriss: When I've spent time β
Andrew Huberman: If you stir it in β
01:26:59Tim Ferriss: β in Iceland and Scandinavia
β
01:27:00Andrew Huberman: It's delicious.
01:27:01Tim Ferriss: β I've had these little shots
of cod liver oil and so on.
01:27:04I can do that.
01:27:05But on top of the oatmeal?
01:27:06Andrew Huberman: No, I'm telling you.
01:27:07It's really good.
01:27:08And I hate sardines.
01:27:10I despise sardines.
01:27:11I despise anything smoked flavored.
01:27:13I'm really boring.
01:27:15And I absolutely loathe anchovies, like fishy
oil smell.
01:27:19I don't even really like eating fish.
01:27:21Tim Ferriss: Yeah, I can't eat anchovies.
01:27:22Still like sardines.
01:27:23Andrew Huberman: I like sushi.
01:27:24I like sushi.
01:27:25That's about it.
01:27:26But even there, I'm boring.
01:27:27Tim Ferriss: You spoiled brat.
01:27:28Andrew Huberman: I don't even uni.
01:27:29I'm a good person to go to sushi with because
you get all the eel, all the uni.
01:27:31I just want the yellowtail and the β
Tim Ferriss: Least offensive.
01:27:35Andrew Huberman: Maguro.
01:27:36Yeah.
01:27:37Tim Ferriss: Least offensive fish available.
01:27:38Andrew Huberman: I'm boring.
01:27:39At least I'm not ordering chicken teriyaki.
01:27:40Tim Ferriss: All right.
01:27:41And just so people are hearing it from you
and not from me, not to say it's even the
01:27:43same thing.
01:27:44What are the primary benefits that you observe
or that are supported by literature?
01:27:49Either or, with the intake of say, one gram
minimum of EPA per day?
01:27:54Andrew Huberman: Mood.
01:27:55Antidepressant effects.
01:27:56Absolutely clear.
01:27:57And there are so many clinical trials supporting
that, people can get away with taking lower
01:28:01doses of antidepressants or even coming off
antidepressants.
01:28:03Of course, always check with your psychiatrist
before you do that by increasing their omega-3
01:28:09intake above one gram per day, even as high
three grams per day.
01:28:12Tim Ferriss: Okay.
01:28:13So question for you.
01:28:14I remember last time we spoke, we chatted
a bit about the ability for the gut.
01:28:20Let's just say, some people refer to it as
the second brain, to sense the intake of sugar,
01:28:29fat, and a handful of other things.
01:28:34What is the mechanism of action by which the
EPA is affecting mood?
01:28:40Is that known or is β
Andrew Huberman: I think so.
01:28:42It's probably two-pronged.
01:28:44One, the EPA is a fundamental structural lipid
for neuronal membranes and for the neurons
01:28:52in particular, that release neuromodulators
such as serotonin and dopamine.
01:28:58That's one.
01:28:59The other is that these neuropod cells in
the gut, as they're called, since, as you
01:29:06pointed out, sugar, essential fatty acids,
and essential amino acids signal via the vagus
01:29:13to the dopamine centers of the brain.
01:29:15So your gut is subconsciously signaling to
your brain what kinds of nutrients are coming
01:29:19into your system.
01:29:21And when you have a lot of flavorful food
and/or high caloric food, but it's not high
01:29:29in nutrients, it sets that system totally
out of whack because there's an increase in
01:29:33dopamine for sure, from the taste of the food
that's not matched by that subconscious parallel
01:29:40signal.
01:29:41And by the way, this is not woo-woo biology.
01:29:44This is coming from the laboratories of Diego
Bohorquez at Duke University School of Medicine.
01:29:50Charles Zucker, who's a Howard Hughes medical
investigator at Columbia University, has done
01:29:54this for sugar sensing.
01:29:56And a number of other laboratories have shown
that this pathway from the subconscious signaling
01:29:59from the vagus to the dopamine centers of
the brain are driving an appetite for certain
01:30:04kinds of foods.
01:30:06However, when these neurons, these neuropod
cells in the gut are "satisfied," they're
01:30:10seeing the nutrients they want to see, they
signal to the brain dopamine release within
01:30:16the brain, but they also are signaling satiety.
01:30:20And that's really what you want.
01:30:22So in many ways, we are a essential amino
acid, essential fatty acid foraging machine.
01:30:28It just also so happens that at least in the
short term sugar will trigger the same pathway.
01:30:33This is also why people who increase their
intake of omega-3s, get above that one gram
01:30:40per day of EPAs, or who take small amounts
of L-glutamine, reduce their sugar cravings.
01:30:47You're activating the same neurons.
01:30:49You're giving the alternative stimulus.
01:30:50Tim Ferriss: So the L-glutamine is vis-a-vis
the neuropods.
01:30:54Andrew Huberman: Likely.
01:30:55That hasn't been directly established, but
it's long been known that increasing intake
01:30:59of certain essential amino acids can reduce
craving for sweets.
01:31:04And whenever people say, "How do I kill my
sweet craving?"
01:31:07Well, it's not a conventional approach, but
you get a quality branch chain amino acid
01:31:14or essential amino acid powder, which sometimes
have some non-caloric sweetener or something
01:31:18and fruity taste and mix it in there.
01:31:20People will find, oh, yeah, I don't actually
crave chocolate the same way.
01:31:25In my opinion, a little bit of dark chocolate
is wonderful every once in a while.
01:31:27So I don't want to give the impression that
you're never supposed to have sugar.
01:31:30But there are people who very much feel a
slave to their sugar cravings.
01:31:34So giving these neurons the alternative stimulus
really helps and you're getting effectively
01:31:38the same dopamine release.
01:31:40This makes sense evolutionarily, why we would
crave essential fatty acids and essential
01:31:44amino acids.
01:31:45Tim Ferriss: Yeah, totally.
01:31:46Andrew Huberman: This is also why, the non-meat
eaters won't relate, but a really great steak
01:31:50is very satisfying despite the fact that it
has no glucose, essentially.
01:31:55There are people who feel quite good, whether
or not they're healthy or not, we could talk
01:31:59about, but who feel quite good just eating
steak.
01:32:02Now, I'm not one of those people.
01:32:05But if you had to pick a food that would keep
you feeling good and would repair the tissues
01:32:10of your body and would give you enough fats
to keep going and protein synthesis, et cetera,
01:32:14if you had to feed your children, you would
give them a steak.
01:32:17You would not give them a sweet potato.
01:32:20And if you look at the amount of food that
one eats when given as much meat as they want,
01:32:26fatty meat in particular, not gross fatty
meat, but high-quality fatty meat versus carbohydrates,
01:32:33you're quite satisfied after a certain amount
of protein intake.
01:32:36So I'm not pushing people towards a carnivore
diet.
01:32:39I don't follow a carnivore diet.
01:32:40But I do think that our nervous system, from
the gut to the brain, is a sensing and foraging
01:32:47system that subconsciously and lets our brain
know, "Aha, I've got enough of what I need
01:32:53and now I can stop eating if I want to."
01:32:55Tim Ferriss: So we're going to leapfrog from
delicious fish.
01:32:59I think the move for me might be to go to
just pure liquid refrigerated.
01:33:06Try that.
01:33:07I mean, who the hell knows.
01:33:08The fish oil.
01:33:09Just to try something, even if the expiration
date looks fine.
01:33:12Maybe I just got a couple of bad batches.
01:33:14Who knows?
01:33:15Andrew Huberman: Or maybe it's the capsules
themselves.
01:33:16There's so many things going into these capsule
formulas and then there's shelf life and all
01:33:21of that.
01:33:22But gut health overall, it's hard for most
people to do what they need to for their gut.
01:33:28In addition to all the things to avoid, too
frequent use of antibiotics and things of
01:33:32that source, it's pretty clear that one serving
of fermented foods a day is not going to be
01:33:38enough.
01:33:39That you need three or four servings of low-sugar
fermented food.
01:33:42So nattΕ for people that can stomach it,
sauerkraut, kimchi.
01:33:48A good Bulgarian yogurt.
01:33:49I like these really sour Bulgarian yogurts.
01:33:51They're so good.
01:33:52Tim Ferriss: Bulgarian yogurt?
01:33:53Andrew Huberman: Oh, there's this amazing
Bulgarian yogurt.
01:33:54You have to try this stuff.
01:33:55It is so good.
01:33:56Except they don't have β the full-fat one
in particular β
01:33:58Tim Ferriss: What makes the Bulgarian yogurt
so magical?
01:34:00Andrew Huberman: I wish I could remember the
name of this brand.
01:34:02Tim Ferriss: We'll put it in the show notes.
01:34:03Andrew Huberman: It's so good.
01:34:05But I don't want people to β they run out.
01:34:06Because they only put two or three of these
in every Whole Foods.
01:34:09And I'm buying those two or three, of the
full-fat ones.
01:34:12But it's hard for most people to get that
much low-sugar fermented food per day.
01:34:16And so most people just don't do it.
01:34:18And then high-dose probiotics are very expensive,
need to be refrigerated.
01:34:23So that's why I think the AG1 checks off a
number of boxes there.
01:34:27But if people can ingest low-sugar fermented
foods, that's going to serve them really,
01:34:31really well.
01:34:32So, say, the data from Justin Sonnenburg's
lab.
01:34:34And Chris Gardner's lab.
01:34:35Tim Ferriss: Enjoy your kilo a day of nattΕ.
01:34:37Tell me how that goes.
01:34:38Andrew Huberman: That stuff is so slimy.
01:34:40Tim Ferriss: It's so wicked.
01:34:42There are two things that β yeah, I've lived
in Japan and was there as an exchange student
01:34:46and so on, there are two, well, let's see,
three food items that Japanese people find
01:34:51hilarious to watch foreigners try to eat.
01:34:55NattΕ is definitely number one.
01:34:57It's just like spiderweb, cobweb, stink.
01:35:00It's so gnarly.
01:35:02I can eat it, but it's not my favorite, even
to this day.
01:35:06Umeboshi and other types of pickled super,
super salty plums and so on, that's another
01:35:12one.
01:35:13And then I would say uni also.
01:35:16Especially before it was really making the
rounds in the US.
01:35:19The first time a foreigner would go over β
Andrew Huberman: β can't do it.
01:35:21Tim Ferriss: Just get the seagull poo on top
of the sushi rice.
01:35:25It's so hardcore.
01:35:26Uni is what I'm talking about.
01:35:27Just consistency wise, it's very, very similar.
01:35:29Andrew Huberman: It just feels like it's a
tongue.
01:35:31Tim Ferriss: Yeah.
01:35:32It's not my favorite.
01:35:34Andrew Huberman: But people love it.
01:35:36Tim Ferriss: Some people do.
01:35:37Andrew Huberman: People are told that it's
an aphrodisiac and so they put it β
01:35:39Tim Ferriss: That's the best way to sell anything.
01:35:40Andrew Huberman: That's right, the best way
of selling.
01:35:42That's right.
01:35:43Tim Ferriss: I wanted to ask you, because
I have a couple of notes here, tongkat ali,
01:35:47Fadogia agrestis, if I'm pronouncing that
correctly.
01:35:50But the one I want to ask you about first
is actually, if I'm getting the pronunciation
01:35:53correctly, Rhodiola rosea.
01:35:54Andrew Huberman: Yeah, Rhodiola rosea.
01:35:56Tim Ferriss: All right.
01:35:57Andrew Huberman: Impressive supplement.
01:35:59Tim Ferriss: Please tell me more about this,
because I have heard in my conversations with
01:36:03athletes over the years, of people using this
for various endurance purposes, altitude acclimation.
01:36:12Andrew Huberman: So Rhodiola rosea is a really
interesting compound because it falls into
01:36:19this category of what people call adaptogens.
01:36:22But normally when you hear adaptogens, first
of all, that's a very vague term.
01:36:25Doesn't actually mean anything specific.
01:36:28It means an ability to adapt generally, or
specifically.
01:36:31No one's really pinpointed what that means.
01:36:34But typically the adaptogens are going to
reduce cortisol.
01:36:36So, for instance, Ashwagandha is a very potent
suppressor of cortisol.
01:36:41There's some evidence it can indirectly increase
testosterone, but probably through suppression
01:36:45of cortisol, since those are in the same synthesis
pathway.
01:36:48Ashwagandha is an adaptogen.
01:36:51Ashwagandha, because it lowers cortisol, should
probably be taken late day, not early day,
01:36:56because you want cortisol high.
01:36:58Ashwagandha as a cortisol-suppressing adaptogen,
probably also should not be taken in high
01:37:04amounts, not low amounts, but in high amounts,
meaning four to 600 milligrams prior to exercise.
01:37:10The whole goal of exercise is to trigger the
adaptation through a spike in cortisol.
01:37:15Or one of the goals.
01:37:17Rhodiola rosea is a very interesting compound
because it's an adaptogen in that it greatly
01:37:23reduces perceived effort and allows for greater
power output and endurance output, as you
01:37:28pointed out a moment ago, but it does not
do that by suppressing cortisol.
01:37:34So, 200 milligrams of Rhodiola rosea prior
to, say, a resistance-training workout, or
01:37:40even on one of your ski tours, you will notice
you have more vigor, you can just go longer,
01:37:47and your perceived effort is much lower.
01:37:50It's kind of striking.
01:37:51Tim Ferriss: What is it doing?
01:37:52Andrew Huberman: Now, this is interesting.
01:37:53It's kind of striking how after the workout
you don't feel as depleted.
01:37:58That perhaps is the reason I started, perhaps
the main reason I started taking it is I found
01:38:00I could train harder, but then I suffered
quite a lot from a post-exercise dip in energy.
01:38:05Especially if I ate a big meal.
01:38:07I no longer experience that if I take Rhodiola
rosea 30 to 60 minutes before workout.
01:38:12The effects of it last about four hours.
01:38:15So what's happening during that workout, it's
clearly having an effect on the central nervous
01:38:20system by reducing the total amount of adrenaline
that's released, or the efficacy of adrenaline
01:38:26epinephrine during high intensity effort or
long duration effort.
01:38:30So, what this effectively means is, in principle,
one is able to generate the same amount of
01:38:36effort without the same amount of energy depleting
neurochemicals.
01:38:41I mean, epinephrine, norepinephrine help you
generate energy, but there's always a trough
01:38:46afterwards.
01:38:47Always.
01:38:48And so if you can generate the same amount
of physical output in the absence of X amount
01:38:52of adrenaline or norepinephrine, then you're
essentially better off.
01:38:57It also seems to catalyze recovery better.
01:38:59I would not take it more often than just before
training, however, because there are a few
01:39:07studies showing that the effects of it can
kind of taper off if you're taking it all
01:39:10day every day.
01:39:11Tim Ferriss: Now, would that be true for,
say, Ashwagandha?
01:39:14Let's just say someone's taking it before
sleep.
01:39:16Would they want to cycle off of that?
01:39:18How would you think about cycling if recommended?
01:39:21Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
01:39:22Low dose of Ashwagandha, 25, 50 milligrams
a day, taking continuously, no problem.
01:39:27I actually think AG one has low dose of Ashwagandha
in it.
01:39:31But when people are taking Ashwagandha to
offset high stress of mental or physical stuff,
01:39:37or both for a period in life, I'd say after
about two weeks, you want at least two weeks
01:39:41off.
01:39:42You really don't want to suppress cortisol
chronically unless there's some clinical reason
01:39:46for that.
01:39:47Rhodiola rosea is probably the best addition
to my kind of physical performance stack that
01:39:55I've added in a long time, and it's really
striking.
01:39:58I mean, I think so much so that people could
try it.
01:40:00And it really does seem to work the first
time in every time, for me.
01:40:04If it doesn't work for you the first time,
all other things being equal, you got a decent
01:40:09night's sleep, you're doing everything in
the same way you normally would and you take
01:40:13Rhodiola rosea and you don't really notice
much of an effect, you might try and increase
01:40:18the dose slightly and give it another go.
01:40:20Tim Ferriss: And what was the dosage range?
01:40:22Andrew Huberman: 200 milligrams is what I'll
take.
01:40:24And I found that to be really striking.
01:40:26Now, I'm not going to take that before a long
Sunday jog or a hike.
01:40:32I might, but chances are I'm not going to
do it before the leg workout.
01:40:35I'm going to do it before a hit workout.
01:40:36Again, of course, I'm mainly doing it to make
sure that I can train really hard and then
01:40:42go do other things really hard, too.
01:40:44Again, as not a competitive athlete, I loathe
the experience of training really hard and
01:40:50then feeling like I gave everything to that
training session and therefore I don't have
01:40:54much energy or focus to give to the other
things in life.
01:40:57And I think most people are like that.
01:40:59Tim Ferriss: Are you still taking the tongkat
ali and the Fadogia agrestis?
01:41:03And for those who are not familiar, because
I think we may have made mention of this in
01:41:07our last conversation, but just in brief,
what do these two things do?
01:41:10Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
01:41:11Tongkat ali is an Indonesian ginseng.
01:41:14There's a Malaysian version too, but you want
the Indonesian one if you want to pursue these
01:41:18effects, which are, it's known to decrease
sex hormone-binding globulin, which frees
01:41:22testosterone, which is important in both men
and women.
01:41:25It turns out in women there's more testosterone
circulating in a healthy woman, post-puberty
01:41:31woman, then there is estrogen.
01:41:33Peter Attia taught me this.
01:41:34If you normalize for nanograms per deciliter,
women have more testosterone than estrogen,
01:41:39healthy women do.
01:41:40So, testosterone is associated with libido,
ability, and desire to generate effort, mood,
01:41:45et cetera, in men and women.
01:41:47Probably the best way to describe testosterone's
effects are it makes effort feel good.
01:41:54Tongkat ali frees up more testosterone, mild
libido enhancer for some, more extreme for
01:42:00others, increases energy, will increase feelings
of well-being.
01:42:04And typically the dosages are 400 milligrams
a day in single dose or divided doses, with
01:42:12or without food taken early in the day, before
noon or 2:00 p.m. because it can increase
01:42:17energy.You don't want to disrupt your sleep.
01:42:19There are a number of good sources of it.
01:42:21We can provide links to a couple of those
sources.
01:42:24And Fadogia agrestis is a Nigerian shrub.
01:42:25It's taken from a Nigerian shrub and it stimulates
the release of luteinizing hormone, which
01:42:32is going to come out of the pituitary.
01:42:37And in women, will stimulate anything that
comes from downstream of luteinizing hormone
01:42:42in the ovary.
01:42:43So typically estrogen, maybe even testosterone
to some extent.
01:42:46And in men, it will increase testosterone
output from the testes by way of increasing
01:42:50luteinizing hormone, maybe subtle increase
in estrogen as well.
01:42:54This is important.
01:42:55Men hear that something increases estrogen
and they go, "Ooh, I don't want that."
01:43:00Well, keep in mind that if you flatline your
estrogen, so if men are taking anastrozole
01:43:04or crushing their estrogen, their libido is
going to be zero.
01:43:09Their cognitive ability will be diminished.
01:43:12Estrogen is important in both men and women.
01:43:13Tim Ferriss: It's also cardioprotective.
01:43:14Andrew Huberman: Cardioprotective, the endothelial
cells.
01:43:16We think of our blood vessels and our arteries
in capillaries as tubes, but they're really
01:43:20tubes, imagine Silly Putty kind of rolled
out, Play-Doh made into little flat sheets
01:43:26and then rolled up to comprise those tubes.
01:43:29So it's many, many endothelial cells that
make up those tubes.
01:43:31And the flexibility of those tubes is very
important.
01:43:34Obviously, you don't want them rigid, you
need them to expand and contract as needed.
01:43:38And estrogen's important for some of that
signaling, leading to that malleability of
01:43:44the endothelial cells.
01:43:45Fadogia agrestis is typically taken in dosages
of 300 to 600 milligrams per day, with or
01:43:51without food.
01:43:52Doesn't seem to matter if it's early day,
late day.
01:43:54There's some evidence in rats it can be toxic
to the testicular tissue.
01:43:58But that's in very, very high concentrations.
01:44:01It's interesting, the number of studies on
humans for both tongkat ali and Fadogia agrestis
01:44:05have greatly expanded since our last conversation.
01:44:07And especially for tongkat ali, there's quite
good support.
01:44:11Safety margins are good within the dosage
ranges that we've talked about.
01:44:13I've heard of people taking up to a gram a
day of tongkat ali.
01:44:17That just makes me cringe.
01:44:18I think taking herbal compounds in very high
concentrations is going to be risky no matter
01:44:22what, because these things can trigger immune
responses.
01:44:26400 milligrams of tongkat ali, 300 to 600
milligrams of Fadogia taken daily should be
01:44:32fine.
01:44:33I don't cycle them and never have.
01:44:34Some people cycle the Fadogia because they're
afraid β
01:44:36Tim Ferriss: Why not?
01:44:37Andrew Huberman: Why don't I cycle them?
01:44:38Because they just keep working.
01:44:40Tim Ferriss: I mean, Louie Simmons could have
said that about anabolics, too.
01:44:43Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
01:44:44A couple of reasons.
01:44:46I do blood work twice a year.
01:44:48Liver enzymes are included there.
01:44:51We can talk about fertility perhaps if you
want, today.
01:44:54The last year, because of my age and the fact
that I don't have children yet, but I'm cognizant
01:44:58of the fact that I do want them at some point,
I got really down the rabbit hole, interesting
01:45:05figure of speech, for sperm analysis, including
everything from DNA fragmentation to how to
01:45:10increase sperm numbers and motility and quality,
and egg quality.
01:45:13I got really β
Tim Ferriss: So you're a gambling man.
01:45:15If you're making your swimmers world class,
but you don't want kids β
01:45:19Andrew Huberman: Well, right.
01:45:20It's all about readiness, I suppose.
01:45:22So, what is it in the SEAL teams, they say,
"You fall not to the level of your hope, but
01:45:26to your level of your preparation."
01:45:28Tim Ferriss: "You do not rise to the level
of your goals, but fall the level of your
01:45:31preparation."
01:45:32That's actually a quote from Archilochus,
who is a Greek poet and, I believe, philosopher
01:45:38also.
01:45:39But yes, also widely used in the special forces
system.
01:45:41Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
01:45:42So, I've been monitoring sperm parameters,
freezing sperm, because I might want to do
01:45:46IVF someday with somebody, this kind of thing,
or conceive naturally.
01:45:50And because we're talking about β and I've
talked a lot about tools, supplements, et
01:45:54cetera as it relates to vitality and fertility,
I think there is a way to optimize for both
01:46:00of those things.
01:46:01And so I don't cycle them because I haven't
felt a need to or seen a need to.
01:46:04Some people choose to just take a week off
from Fadogia every once in a while or go five
01:46:08days on, two days off.
01:46:09People should do what makes them comfortable.
01:46:11You'll notice, males will notice an effective
Fadogia, it actually will increase testicular
01:46:15size somewhat and density, and that's just
because of the increase of the LH luteinizing
01:46:20hormone is going to stimulate β
Tim Ferriss: β it's just going to be like
01:46:23avocado pits hanging between the legs.
01:46:25Andrew Huberman: It's going to depend on where
you start, but it will do a number of things
01:46:29related to increasing luteinizing hormone
similar, although not to the same extent,
01:46:34as something like taking hCG, human chorionic
gonadotropin.
01:46:36Tim Ferriss: Well, that I was going to ask,
if you were to inject yourself with hCG, you
01:46:41would probably cycle at some point or maybe
not.
01:46:45I don't know.
01:46:46You tell me.
01:46:47Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I've done experiments
with hCG.
01:46:49I think you have too.
01:46:50Tim Ferriss: I have too.
01:46:51Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
01:46:52I mean, it definitely will increase sperm
volume.
01:46:53Tim Ferriss: Significantly,
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, significantly.
01:46:56hCG is essentially luteinizing hormone.
01:46:59There's actually a movement within the testosterone
augmentation world now to β we don't want
01:47:06to go too far down this path, but so-called
TRT replacement therapy, a lot of people are
01:47:10interested in what I call TAT, which is augmentation
therapy.
01:47:12I think it's a safe β
Tim Ferriss: That's a rebrand, like we were
01:47:15talking before.
01:47:16Andrew Huberman: Nomenclature.
01:47:17Tim Ferriss: Like Patagonia and Toothfish
goes to Chilean sea bass and taking 'roids
01:47:22goes to testosterone augmentation therapy.
01:47:25Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
01:47:26I mean, I think every male should be aware
that taking exogenous testosterone like testosterone
01:47:30cypionate or otherwise is going to suppress
your endogenous testosterone.
01:47:34However, there are people that want to do
that.
01:47:36I think one of the goals for most people is
to neither be out of range β there are a
01:47:43lot of people who don't want to be bodybuilders
and take so-called steroids, but obviously
01:47:47even estrogen's a steroid.
01:47:48Tim Ferriss: Yeah, sure.
01:47:49Andrew Huberman: And cortisol is a corticosteroids.
01:47:51But to be high end of normal range, right?
01:47:54High end of normal.
01:47:55So if the range is 300 nanograms deciliter
all the way up to 1,200 or 900 in some countries,
01:47:59it depends.
01:48:00Being somewhere between 600 and 900 I think
is going to be preferable for most people.
01:48:06And tongkat ali and Fadogia agrestis, I think,
represent a good place to start if you don't
01:48:10want to pursue these other more aggressive
methods.
01:48:12Tim Ferriss: Well, tongkat ali is particularly
interesting to me because I almost always
01:48:17have very high range total testosterone, but
my free testosterone is low and my sex hormone
01:48:25binding globulin is high.
01:48:27Andrew Huberman: Which is itself is not necessarily
a bad thing.
01:48:30The 900 milligrams myo-inositol can also increase
free testosterone indirectly through mechanisms
01:48:37that aren't entirely clear.
01:48:39There are also some other ways if people want
to tickle these pathways.
01:48:43Shilajit, right?
01:48:45Fulvic acid, which is Shilajit, is a mineral
pitch.
01:48:49It's used in Ayurvedic medicine.
01:48:50Tim Ferriss: I thought that was a 1980s lead
vocalist.
01:48:54Andrew Huberman: It stimulates the release
of FSH, a follicle-stimulating hormone.
01:48:57So you have LH and FSH coming out of the pituitary
and LH will stimulate testosterone production
01:49:03via the leydig cells of the testes.
01:49:05The FSH is going to stimulate spermatogenesis
by increasing what's called androgen binding
01:49:14protein, which is the protein that the testosterone
binds to, which then is going to give rise
01:49:17to more sperm at risk of β
I never want to do kind of a podcast plug
01:49:22on another podcast, especially not yours,
but I did a four-and-a-half-hour episode on
01:49:26male and female fertility that goes through
essentially the ovulatory cycle and the spermatogenesis
01:49:32cycle, and then all the dos and do-nots for
both men and women who wish to conceive either
01:49:36now or in the future, or who do not wish to
conceive children, but want to use fertility
01:49:41as a proxy for vitality.
01:49:43Which is something, by the way, I have to
say, I have to credit you for.
01:49:46Years ago, you said basically if you optimize
for fertility, you're optimizing for vitality.
01:49:51Again, I want to just thank you because that's
an extremely efficient, but also extremely
01:49:56sage way to think about optimizing for vitality.
01:50:00So, it's not just about wanting to have kids,
it's about maintaining all your biological
01:50:04systems that they're tuning.
01:50:05Tim Ferriss: Super helpful proxy.
01:50:08Super helpful.
01:50:09In this case, what do you mean by vitality?
01:50:11Andrew Huberman: Waking up feeling well enough
to want to begin your day with enough energy
01:50:19to complete your day and to be able to move
back and forth along the continuum of driven
01:50:31and relaxed.
01:50:32I mean, if you think about that kind of eliminating
relationships to others as a component for
01:50:36the moment, of course it is a component, setting
that aside rather, what I just described,
01:50:41to me, is the definition of mental health:
the ability to lean into effort, but also
01:50:45to relax and restore your system and to feel
good about what you're doing and being able
01:50:52to move from driven to reflective and these
kinds of things.
01:50:55So many people we know, I don't want to give
a geographical, they all left the Bay Area
01:51:00anyway.
01:51:01I just said it was the Bay Area, successful
but miserable.
01:51:04We knew a lot of those.
01:51:05Or people that can't seem to get enough energy
to focus and get down a path of a pursuit.
01:51:11So you want both.
01:51:12That's vitality to me.
01:51:14And this is getting kind of Eastern philosophy,
which is more your domain than mine.
01:51:18I'm always eager to learn here.
01:51:20But when you think about chi, or kind of dopamine,
or life energy, I mean the desire to create
01:51:27things in the world, including offspring,
but just to birth ideas, birth businesses,
01:51:35birth relationships, birth podcasts, whatever
it is, is essentially from the same place
01:51:41of having some idea in mind and trying to
construct that overcoming fear, your notions
01:51:46of fear setting become really relevant here,
et cetera.
01:51:49And so vitality has a lot to do with the ability
to generate effort with feeling like at least,
01:51:54if not a fast upward spiral, at least a slow
upward spiral.
01:51:57And certainly not a slow downward spiral or
fast downward spiral.
01:52:00Tim Ferriss: I'll take any of the upward spirals.
01:52:02Andrew Huberman: I'm around a lot of graduate
students and postdocs, and you see how an
01:52:06early success, like publishing a paper early
on in one's career, creates an upward spiral
01:52:11around the whole concept of effort thereafter.
01:52:13You see this in dating and relationships.
01:52:15You see how an early failure can set people
along a downward spiral.
01:52:19And so I think having drive comes from the
catecholomines.
01:52:24It's dopamine, epinephrine, norepinephrine.
01:52:26And sure you need the serotonergic systems
and the endogenous opioid systems that smooth
01:52:30things out, but in the absence of that get
up and go, we wouldn't be here.
01:52:37I wasn't consulted with the design phase,
but you can be pretty sure that this is what
01:52:40allows any animal or human to move toward
a milestone.
01:52:42Tim Ferriss: I'm going to ask you yet again,
a lazy but perhaps productive question that
01:52:52will satisfy my own curiosity.
01:52:54Omegas, tongkat ali, Fadogia agrestis, and
Rhodiola rosea, you get to pick two.
01:53:02Which would you pick?
01:53:03Andrew Huberman: Tongkat ali and Rhodiola
rosea.
01:53:04Tim Ferriss: Okay.
01:53:05Andrew Huberman: Yeah, especially since β
Tim Ferriss: That was surprising.
01:53:06I thought the EPA would be a shoe-in.
01:53:07Andrew Huberman: Oh, I'm sorry.
01:53:08EPA was included there?
01:53:09Tim Ferriss: Yes.
01:53:10Andrew Huberman: Sorry, sorry.
01:53:11Tim Ferriss: Omegas, tongkat ali, Fadogia
agrestis, Rhodiola rosea.
01:53:12Andrew Huberman: I apologize.
01:53:13So, then it would be omegas and tongkat ali.
01:53:14Tim Ferriss: Okay.
01:53:15Andrew Huberman: Yeah, if I think about fundamental,
kind of baseline supplementation, things that
01:53:16are hard to get from food, but that represent
key micronutrients that really move multiple
01:53:17needles in the right direction, it's going
to be getting above that one gram per day
01:53:20threshold of EPAs.
01:53:22So, omegas.
01:53:25It's also going to be anything that moves
the hormone system toward the green zone,
01:53:29which is going to be tongkat ali.
01:53:31Now, of course, doing all the other things
right, trying to get sleep, exercise β sleep,
01:53:35movement, nutrients, sunlight, all that.
01:53:37In fact, there's a really wonderful study
out of Israel that showed that if people got
01:53:4120 minutes, three times a week, of sun exposure
to their skin, their face, and they removed
01:53:48their shirts, or if it was women, there wore
tank tops, and shorts for both men and women
01:53:53three times a week, significant increases
in free testosterone.
01:53:57And this was afternoon sun.
01:53:59It wasn't morning sun.
01:54:01Increases in free testosterone and estrogen
and significant increases in libido.
01:54:05Also, if you chart out the amount of free
testosterone across the months, even in places
01:54:11that aren't really far north, you're going
to see significant variations in free testosterone
01:54:14in men and women, toward the summer β spring,
and summer months.
01:54:18So, we are somewhat seasonal, and some people
robustly seasonal depending on your ancestry,
01:54:22so that sunlight thing is real and the mechanism
just so that people aren't like, "Oh, get
01:54:27sunlight.
01:54:28He's just saying sunlight again," is that
the keratinocytes, which are a component of
01:54:32the skin, signal through this, for you nerds
like me, the P53 pathway and impinge on the
01:54:40pituitary to signal luteinizing hormone and
follicle-stimulating hormone release.
01:54:45It's so interesting because what we think
of as the skin, which is protecting our organs
01:54:50and a place to put tattoos, and earrings,
and jewelry and stuff, is actually an endocrine
01:54:55organ.
01:54:56The skin is a hormone-producing organ, hence
the vitamin D thing and everything else.
01:55:00Tim Ferriss: A lot of fat cells too, which
a lot of people don't think about.
01:55:03Andrew Huberman: Definitely the omegas and
tongkat ali.
01:55:06Rhodiola rosea is great to enhance workouts.
01:55:09Fadogia is definitely a boost on the hormone
system for sure.
01:55:14I have a friend who [was] single.
01:55:16Now, he's in a great relationship.
01:55:17We can't say it was because the Fadogia, but
he was taking Fadogia and he was like, "I've
01:55:21got to stop taking this stuff."
01:55:22Because obviously he was flying solo at that
point.
01:55:24He was like, "This is just really, it's really
intrusive."
01:55:27Tim Ferriss: Intrusive because he was just
humping the walls or what?
01:55:30Andrew Huberman: I don't know.
01:55:31I don't know if we want to go here.
01:55:32There's this whole online β
Tim Ferriss: Too many shiny objects, too much
01:55:33libido?
01:55:34Andrew Huberman: Well, there's this whole
online community now about semen retention
01:55:35and things like that.
01:55:36He's not part of that community.
01:55:37But there's this idea that β well, we're
adults here.
01:55:40I mean, there's this idea that β
Tim Ferriss: Speak for yourself.
01:55:42Andrew Huberman: If you look in the journals
of sexual health β and I'm really interested
01:55:47in sexual health and urological health.
01:55:50There's a ton of interesting stuff on pelvic
floor.
01:55:52This stuff just isn't often discussed.
01:55:54What you find is that masturbation for women
turns out to, their self-reported notions
01:56:00of well-being, of mood, of immune system function,
of knowing their bodies and what gives them
01:56:06pleasure, et cetera, all increase.
01:56:08If you look at the data in men in terms of
masturbation, and here we're talking about
01:56:12masturbation to the point of ejaculation in
men, they report lower mood, less willingness
01:56:16to pursue relationships.
01:56:18They're home watching porn.
01:56:21We have to be very careful with statements
like masturbation is bad or something like
01:56:25that, because that's not true.
01:56:26It's going to be gender β well, we should
stay out of that discussion.
01:56:30Biological sex-dependent because that's clearer
ground.
01:56:32We'll just leave it at that.
01:56:34And then there is this whole notion that a
whole generation of young males are becoming
01:56:37porn-addicted and masturbation-addicted, but
can't look someone in the eye or ask them
01:56:41out on a date, or learn how to navigate healthy,
consensual sex.
01:56:46They're not doing neck work, so they can't
look anyone in the eye.
01:56:49I'm just kidding.
01:56:50Tim Ferriss: They've got flaccid feet and
they don't do neck work.
01:56:53Andrew Huberman: And here, I'm not trying
to create notions of hyper males.
01:56:57We're really just talking about a radical
shift in the way that sexual health has evolved
01:57:01over the last 10 years because of the accessibility
β in hardcore pornography, its relation
01:57:06to the dopamine system.
01:57:08Here, I'm not trying to be evangelical or
anything like that.
01:57:11I'm just saying these are serious neurotransmitter/hormone
systems, and a whole generation of males is
01:57:21making themselves sated enough to not actually
pursue a number of what used to be considered
01:57:26milestones toward the transition between young
adulthood and true adulthood.
01:57:34Birth rates are low, dating is low, people
are having less sex.
01:57:38A few people are having a lot more sex, so
this is great for the people out there who
01:57:41are comfortable in social interactions.
01:57:44Anyway, we don't want to go down that path
too far.
01:57:46But these are deeply wired systems.
01:57:48Tim Ferriss: Yeah.
01:57:49To they who have much, much will be given.
01:57:51Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
01:57:52So, for those of you willing to date and find
relationships, what hopefully leads to healthy
01:57:55relationships, Fadogia.
01:57:56Tim Ferriss: Thank you, Fadogia.
01:57:58So, before we move on, I do want to ask you
about, because we were chatting a little bit
01:58:02before we started recording, psychedelics
and your current and developing thoughts on
01:58:09that, or any commentary you'd like to add.
01:58:12But before we get to that, since you were
talking about fertility, understanding people
01:58:15can go to the Dances with Wolves episode where
you cover all things comprehensively, but
01:58:22we're talking about a number of tools in the
form of these supplements, for lack of better
01:58:30way to phrase it, goosing the system.
01:58:32These are ways to augment certain endocrine
functions or the sort of composition, let's
01:58:40say, of free versus bounded testosterone,
et cetera.
01:58:44Where did you end up after doing your research
on environmental endocrine disruptors or things
01:58:52that we should be subtracting rather than
adding?
01:58:55Because it's hard, for me, as someone who
is, say, certainly a non-specialist in reproductive
01:59:01health, to find the time or even maybe just
the dedication to sort this signal from the
01:59:11noise with all that, because there's a lot
of hysterics too.
01:59:13There's a lot of nonsense out there.
01:59:15Where did you land with what is important,
if anything, to be mindful of or subtract?
01:59:22Andrew Huberman: So, for cutting through that
β I love the the Dances with Wolves reference.
01:59:27It is a long movie.
01:59:29Tim Ferriss: People should β well, hey,
I love Dances with Wolves, so I'm not knocking
01:59:31it for the length.
01:59:32I think people should listen to this podcast,
but specifically just to hone in on this piece.
01:59:37Andrew Huberman: No, it was designed for individuals
or couples who are thinking about these issues.
01:59:43And also in particular for women who are interested
in banking eggs.
01:59:52Most women don't know the cutoff after which
you can't freeze eggs, you can only freeze
01:59:56embryos.
01:59:57So, in California, if you're 42 years old
or younger, you can freeze eggs.
02:00:02You might meet someone later and decide you
want to conceive children or use a donor.
02:00:06After 42, I think it's 42 and a half, you
can only create embryos and freeze those.
02:00:14The eggs are, on average, are just too aged
out.
02:00:18Males, if you want to be a sperm donor, ideally
you're going to do that before 45 or you might
02:00:25want to do IVF someday.
02:00:26Now, there is a significant increase in the
incidence of autism with each half decade
02:00:32for the father.
02:00:33So, as you go from 30 to 35 to 40, the sperm
age matters, but the increase is still incredibly
02:00:44small overall.
02:00:45So it's not something you can really point
to and say, "Oh, it's the sperm."
02:00:50Or "It's the egg," for that matter.
02:00:51Okay.
02:00:52Now, dos and don'ts.
02:00:53We can now easily look back to the beginning
of our discussion, it's very clear that quality
02:00:57sleep on a regular basis, sunlight, keeping
stress in check, healthy relationships, all
02:01:04of that is going to support sperm health and
egg health.
02:01:07No question about that.
02:01:08It's also clear that getting sufficient Omega-3
fatty acids is going to support sperm health
02:01:14and egg health.
02:01:15I'll just point out that if there were one
supplement that really seems to move the needle
02:01:19in terms of egg quality, which is a morphological
but also a meaningful physiological metric
02:01:24for sperm quality, which is going to be shape,
motility.
02:01:28You don't want dead sperm.
02:01:30There are always going to be some in a sample
because of the age of the sperm, et cetera,
02:01:34and the way the spermatogenesis cycle go.
02:01:35But you want forwardly motile sperm.
02:01:38The other ones are called twitchers, so they
just twitch in place.
02:01:41They can actually take twitchers and force
them into the egg during IVF, something called
02:01:46ICSI.
02:01:47But in general, the greater number of forward
motile sperm, I'm swimming them toward you.
02:01:51Tim Ferriss: Yeah.
02:01:52Andrew Huberman: I'm actually swimming them
at an angle away from Tim.
02:01:54But they are β
Tim Ferriss: So forward on our first in-person
02:01:56podcast date.
02:01:57Andrew Huberman: Exactly.
02:01:58Can be greatly increased by supplementation
with L-carnitine.
02:02:01So egg health and sperm health greatly enhanced
by L-carnitine.
02:02:06Pretty remarkable results there.
02:02:08Injectable L-carnitine of about one mil, one
mig per day.
02:02:12Now that has to be prescribed by a doctor.
02:02:15Tim Ferriss: And that's IM?
02:02:16That's intramuscular.
02:02:17Yeah.
02:02:18Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
02:02:19Oral capsules are available over the counter.
02:02:20Then you have to get up to four or five grams
per day.
02:02:23Tim Ferriss: Oh, wow.
02:02:24I was going to ask.
02:02:25Yeah.
02:02:26Andrew Huberman: And that can increase TMAO
and some other markers that aren't great for
02:02:29cardiovascular health because of the way it's
processed by the gut.
02:02:32But you can offset that by taking 600 milligrams
of garlic, because of the allicin in garlic.
02:02:38Okay.
02:02:39Smoking cigarettes, vaping cigarettes β
Tim Ferriss: Really good for sperm.
02:02:42Andrew Huberman: Terrible for sperm, terrible
for eggs.
02:02:45Smoking cannabis, vaping cannabis, also terrible,
eggs and sperm.
02:02:48People don't like to hear that.
02:02:5015 percent of women, I can't believe this
statistic, but I've seen it over and over,
02:02:53had to check my eyes, but 15 percent ingest
cannabis at some point during pregnancy, 15
02:03:00percent.
02:03:01Probably not a good idea.
02:03:02Now, a lot of people say, "Oh, I smoke weed
every day and got my wife pregnant."
02:03:07You never know how healthy your children would've
been.
02:03:10You just never know.
02:03:11I'm not saying your children are unhealthy,
but you never know.
02:03:12Tim Ferriss: There're also going to be, there
will always be edge cases where, "I smoke
02:03:16crack every week and never slept for 14 days
straight.
02:03:20My kids are great."
02:03:21And you're like, "Okay.
02:03:22Just because you happen to be the one mutantβ¦"
02:03:25Andrew Huberman: Right, yeah.
02:03:26If you want to optimize for sperm health.
02:03:28Tim Ferriss: If you could thread that needle.
02:03:29Andrew Huberman: Exactly.
02:03:30Tim Ferriss: Doesn't mean you're a good model.
02:03:31Andrew Huberman: Exactly.
02:03:32So L-carnitine can really help.
02:03:33Avoid smoking anything.
02:03:35The issue of tinctures and edibles is a different
subject altogether.
02:03:42I think the big wow for me was something,
again, I'm just going to tip my hat to you,
02:03:50which is that in 2015, I taught a class at,
I was then a professor at UC San Diego, on
02:03:57neural circuits and health and disease, and
I decided to do a lecture on whether or not
02:04:00cellphones inhibit sperm health and, or testosterone
level.
02:04:06The data were very mixed, frankly.
02:04:08There were essentially two good studies in
rats, each of them taking a standard smartphone,
02:04:12putting it under a rat's cage, and then looking
at some metrics related to testicular health,
02:04:18sperm health, et cetera.
02:04:19One showed increases in the testosterone.
02:04:21The other showed decreases.
02:04:22So it was a disappointing situation.
02:04:24So I would present both.
02:04:26Now, there is an extensive meta-analysis.
02:04:28I can send you this for the show notes if
you like, an extensive meta-analysis of dozens
02:04:32of studies.
02:04:33Tim Ferriss: I'll add it to the next reprint
of The 4-Hour Body.
02:04:35Andrew Huberman: And it very convincingly
shows that keeping the cellphone in one's
02:04:41pocket, so this isn't putting it to your head,
this isn't putting it on the desk in front
02:04:44of you, but keeping it on and in one's pocket,
and it does not matter if it's on wifi or
02:04:51you're using cellular.
02:04:53Decreases sperm quality, which means forward
motility, number of healthy sperm per ejaculate,
02:04:59et cetera.
02:05:00Even ejaculate volume to some extent, N lowers
testosterone overall, which is perhaps not
02:05:07surprising, giving the known heat effects
of the phone.
02:05:09So even though it doesn't feel hot to the
touch, there are heat effects.
02:05:13Sperm don't like heat.
02:05:14In fact, the most promising male contraceptive
that's out there that's not a condom, it's
02:05:19like a cuff that goes around the vas deferens,
which is the portal from the testes to the
02:05:25urethra that allows the ejaculate to leave
the body, that heats that.
02:05:28I mean, a sauna, it's not a great form of
contraception because it's not sureproof,
02:05:33but it will reduce your total number of motile
sperm by 75 percent or so.
02:05:38When I go in the sauna, because I do hope
to β
02:05:39Tim Ferriss: 75 percent is a lot.
02:05:40Andrew Huberman: β I do hope to conceive
children in some way, so I wear shorts into
02:05:43the sauna and I actually put a cold pack at
my groin while I'm in there.
02:05:49When the sauna's really hot, it's also, it
makes it a little less unpleasant.
02:05:52It's a little painful, but you definitely
don't want to do that on bare skin.
02:05:56But I'm chuckling too, but heat is part of
the problem with the cellphone, but it turns
02:06:01out, yes.
02:06:02And here people are going to think I'm a crazy
person, but they might think that already,
02:06:06the EMFs, that business is real.
02:06:09Now is it so real that it's giving us gliomas?
02:06:11Unclear.
02:06:12I'm not going to go there.
02:06:13The data aren't in, but it is very clear that
the radiation from phones, the EMFs and the
02:06:18heat are combining to reduce sperm quality,
motility and overall testosterone.
02:06:24So it's a simple thing.
02:06:25Turn off your phone completely, or even better,
just don't put it in your front pocket.
02:06:30If you have to put it in a pocket, put it
in your back pocket.
02:06:33Even better would be to put it in a shoulder
pocket or a backpack.
02:06:36And I'm a weirdo perhaps, but I don't like
keeping the phone to my head too long.
02:06:43But that's also because I don't like holding
the phone to my head too long.
02:06:47We don't know very much about the effects
of EMFs and heat effects on the different
02:06:51tissues of the body, but we now know a lot
about the effects of heat and EMFs on sperm
02:06:56quality, and it's not a good picture for the
sperm.
02:07:00Tim Ferriss: Where does airplane mode fit
into this equation, if at all?
02:07:06In terms of between on and off.
02:07:07I mean, does it prevent or mitigate some of
the effects?
02:07:13Andrew Huberman: It seems to, it seems to.
02:07:15Here's what's really scary about this meta-analysis.
02:07:18Their conclusion is that the total amount
of time spent with the phone in the pocket
02:07:22is not a strong determinant.
02:07:24That it's not all or none, but that the threshold
beyond which you start seeing these damaging
02:07:29effects is pretty low.
02:07:32So again, here we're talking about a don't,
not a do.
02:07:35And so it's pretty straightforward.
02:07:36Don't keep the phone in your front pocket
if you're concerned with sperm health and
02:07:41testosterone production.
02:07:42Now, why is sperm health and testosterone
production so correlated?
02:07:45And you say, well, duh, it's because testosterone
and sperm.
02:07:48But if you're not interested in conceiving
children, you might not think this is an issue.
02:07:52But remember that the two types of cells,
those Leydig cells and the Sertoli cells of
02:07:57the testes combine testosterone in the androgen-binding
protein to give rise to sperm.
02:08:02So anytime you're seeing a reduction in sperm,
you are definitely seeing that as a reflection
02:08:07of reduction in androgen-binding protein,
which means whatever testosterone you have
02:08:10around is also not having the effect on that
local organ that it should.
02:08:16In other words, the testes and the ovaries
are very interesting organs because they secrete
02:08:21hormones into the body to go have effects,
but they also have effects on themselves and
02:08:26it's self-amplifying.
02:08:28And so this just seems like such a straightforward
one to me.
02:08:30And you said this back in, when was The 4-Hour
Body published?
02:08:33Tim Ferriss: Came out in 2010.
02:08:34Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
02:08:35And I remember you and Poliquin and a few
other people saying, "Don't keep the phone
02:08:38in your pocket."
02:08:39And I remember lecturing to about 400 students
about this, and I would say about half, just
02:08:43by my read, about half of the guys in the
class took the phone out of their pocket when
02:08:48they heard this.
02:08:50I think young people who aren't thinking about
having children at all right now are absolutely
02:08:54the ones that should be most concerned.
02:08:56Now, it is true, as they told us in high school,
it just takes one sperm, "But it just takes
02:09:01one sperm!"
02:09:02But in order to get that one sperm to the
egg in vivo, not IVF, but it's called natural
02:09:08conception, there's a lot of territory that
needs to be covered.
02:09:11There's a lot of chemical environments that
need to be dealt with.
02:09:14You want the healthiest sperm.
02:09:15Tim Ferriss: So I would say also having gone
through this process with an ex to create
02:09:21embryos, even though you can say it only takes
one sperm in IVF as well, you want to stack
02:09:29the odds in your favor, which means you need
good morphology, good motility, and you need
02:09:34a good count of non-crippled sperm.
02:09:37Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
02:09:38I mean, sperm analysis, it can be a humbling
thing because no matter what, no one's getting
02:09:44100 percent motile, forwardly motile.
02:09:46You learn a lot about everyone, males and
females learn a lot about their biology, what
02:09:50they're doing well, what they're doing less
well when going down that pathway of IVF,
02:09:55I think.
02:09:56I think for women, one of the big surprises
is that it doesn't take much ingestion of
02:10:01alcohol to diminish egg quality, beyond two
or three drinks per week β per week β you
02:10:09really start to see reductions in egg quality
that are probably indirect, through effects
02:10:14on diminished sleep and changes in stress
hormones.
02:10:19And so again, some people will be more resilient
to this than others.
02:10:23People always like to make jokes about how
alcohol facilitates the conception process,
02:10:28et cetera.
02:10:30I think that in general, if women are having
very regular cycles, whether or not they're
02:10:3528 days long or 35 days long, is less important
perhaps than they be fairly regular.
02:10:40Women in general tend to know more about their
bodies because they cycle than men.
02:10:44But if I could go back in time to my 30s,
I sure would've banked sperm then.
02:10:50And I feel good about where I've got my parameters,
but it's really interesting as you learn this,
02:10:54you just realize that freezing sperm, freezing
eggs is a great idea, and freezing embryos
02:11:01makes sense if you have the appropriate pairing
or situation, and that life gets so much easier
02:11:08for those wishing to conceive when you have
healthy embryos frozen in the bank.
02:11:13And anyway, for those challenged in that area,
it also becomes this incredibly expensive,
02:11:18emotionally and financially expensive battle.
02:11:20Tim Ferriss: Yeah.
02:11:21I will say much to my surprise that within
the last year, I suppose, prior to the breakup,
02:11:30of course, but going through the IVF or at
least embryo-creation process, my sperm quality,
02:11:38because I have banked, starting probably β unfortunately,
not as reliably as I would've liked, but probably
02:11:47starting around 2010 or 2012.
02:11:50Andrew Huberman: Oh, okay, quite a while ago.
02:11:53Tim Ferriss: Banking sperm.
02:11:54Sadly, there was actually a technical issue
at this particular location in San Francisco
02:12:01because they were bought by some larger conglomerate,
and I think a lot of the samples were lost.
02:12:07But the point I was going to make is that
after trying to do a deep dive, taking copious
02:12:13amounts of L-carnitine, adding in a few other
things like maca and a handful of other basics,
02:12:21my sperm quality is actually better, seemingly
better now than it was 10 years ago, which
02:12:27is shocking.
02:12:28Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
02:12:29I mean, again, if one is doing the right things,
I do think that we can perform physically,
02:12:36probably in the domain of sexual health too.
02:12:37I think that's a misconception that men peak
in their 80s β 18.
02:12:4280s!
02:12:43Excuse me.
02:12:44Tim Ferriss: I was like, "Sweet!
02:12:45Thank God!"
02:12:46Andrew Huberman: At 18.
02:12:47I've looked at testosterone levels as a function
of age in that there's a wonderful book on
02:12:51this, on behavioral endocrinology, and there
are some and in their 70s who maintain testosterone
02:12:57levels similar to men in their 20s and 30s.
02:13:00Highly individual, depends a ton on how much
people are moving, how much sunlight they're
02:13:04getting, how little alcohol and nicotine,
smoking nicotine, not nicotine the substance,
02:13:10but they're bringing into their system, exposure
to environmental toxins, these kinds of things.
02:13:15And we always think of BPAs and receipts.
02:13:16They are a problem.
02:13:18Handling receipts, not good, printed receipts,
but β
02:13:20Tim Ferriss: Wait a second, hold on.
02:13:22Andrew Huberman: But that's the major source
of BPAs.
02:13:23Tim Ferriss: No shit.
02:13:24Andrew Huberman: Oh, yeah.
02:13:25Printed receipts.
02:13:26Tim Ferriss: I had no idea.
02:13:27So BPAs, I always think, all right, cans,
bottles, this, that, and the other thing.
02:13:30Receipts?
02:13:31Andrew Huberman: Receipts.
02:13:32Tim Ferriss: Why the hell are there so many
BPAs in receipts?
02:13:34Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
02:13:35Shanna Swan, who's done a lot of the critical
work on phthalates and their influence on
02:13:40urogenital distance, which is a marker of
prenatal androgen and gets smaller, that the
02:13:44genitals and the anus are closer together
in females than in males of all species, including
02:13:50humans.
02:13:51Phthalate exposure.
02:13:52BPAs in particular is progressively decreasing
urogenital distance in males, penis size.
02:13:58In a somewhat contradictory way there's a
study that just came out in of Stanford from
02:14:03Michael Eisenberg's lab, he's a urologist,
an endocrinologist, showed that actually a
02:14:08flaccid, here it is again, flaccid, oh, no,
erect penis lengths have gone up 26 percent
02:14:12in the last 30 years.
02:14:13But testosterone and sperm counts are going
down.
02:14:15Tim Ferriss: I don't know.
02:14:16Andrew Huberman: There's a really interesting
study of tens of thousands of men.
02:14:21I haven't read the method section β
Tim Ferriss: How do they explain that?
02:14:24Because it makes, though, superficial sense
to me, because if your swimmers and your testosterone
02:14:33are just taking a nose dive, you need to get
closer to the goal.
02:14:37Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
02:14:38Closer to the cervix, cervical opening.
02:14:40Those data are a little hard to explain, but
they're very robust data.
02:14:43That study was just published and yeah, he'd
be an interesting β I don't know him.
02:14:45Tim Ferriss: So the balls are getting closer
to the ass, but the schlongs are getting longer.
02:14:48This is what happens apparently.
02:14:49Not to get too technical.
02:14:50Andrew Huberman: No.
02:14:51Well, I think people will understand that
urogenital distance is not a great term for
02:14:55most people to digest or think about.
02:14:58But we think about BPAs.
02:14:59So receipts, probably more than plastics and
things of that sort.
02:15:04But also if you look at the most that people
get the greatest exposure to these phthalates
02:15:09and that are impairing their endocrine system
the most in males and females, it's going
02:15:14to be in rural areas because of pesticides,
airborne pesticides.
02:15:17So we think, oh, people living in cities,
bus exhaust, drinking sugar-free Red Bull
02:15:23from the bodegas in New York City.
02:15:24No, you're talking about rural areas of the
country and airborne pesticides.
02:15:28Tim Ferriss: Airborne.
02:15:29Andrew Huberman: Yeah, airborne pesticides.
02:15:30Tim Ferriss: So I thought, I immediately went
to groundwater.
02:15:32Andrew Huberman: Dust cropping and this kind
of thing.
02:15:35Tim Ferriss: Wow.
02:15:36Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
02:15:37I was over in Copenhagen to give a talk last
year.
02:15:39Tim Ferriss: I would have totally whiffed
that.
02:15:40I would not have gone β I would've gone
urban.
02:15:41I would've thought contaminants.
02:15:42Andrew Huberman: Me too.
02:15:44And Shanna Swan, who's, I can't remember if
she's at Mount Sinai or one of the other,
02:15:45she's definitely at one of the big medical
schools in New York City, so forgive me, Shanna,
02:15:46but she's been the one really focusing on
this when no one else really thought much
02:15:49of it and was thinking, oh, that's crazy conspiracy
stuff.
02:15:51And no, there's real data funded by the NIH.
02:15:55So I think that avoiding plastics and things
like that, sure.
02:15:58But I think handling of receipts, especially
because they're serious endocrine disruptors
02:16:02and avoiding pesticides.
02:16:05And then alcohol, again, not trying to rain
on anybody's party here, but past two drinks
02:16:11a week is when you start seeing some negative
health effects in males and females.
02:16:15I did a long episode on this.
02:16:17By the way, I drink the occasional drink every
once in a while.
02:16:19I like white tequilas, things of that number.
02:16:21Tim Ferriss: Number-two most-shared podcast
in the world in 2022.
02:16:24Andrew Huberman: I did not expect that at
all.
02:16:26Tim Ferriss: "What Alcohol Does to Your Body,
Brain, and Health."
02:16:28Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
02:16:29I did not expect it to have that kind of traction.
02:16:31There's no agenda there.
02:16:32I think a lot of people think that I'm in
AA or something.
02:16:34I have deep respect for that community.
02:16:36But no, I've never had a problem with alcohol
or drugs.
02:16:38It's never been my thing.
02:16:40So there was no agenda whatsoever.
02:16:42I think that alcohol's a toxin, you're essentially
making a toxin for your cells, that's part
02:16:47the way it creates its effects.
02:16:49Look, it can be enjoyed.
02:16:51I also think that if people are going to drink
more than two drinks per week, they want to
02:16:56pay more attention to the other things that
we talked about at the beginning.
02:16:59Nutrients, sunlight, exercise, sleep, et cetera.
02:17:01So I'm not trying to say what people should
or shouldn't do.
02:17:04They should just know what they're doing.
02:17:05Tim Ferriss: Yeah.
02:17:06And talking about how the preceding 24 hours
leads to the current 24 hours, which leads
02:17:12to the next 24 hours.
02:17:13A friend of mine, I won't give him credit
because he probably doesn't want it, but he
02:17:17was quoting someone else, so it doesn't really
matter.
02:17:19But he said, "Alcohol is borrowing happiness
from tomorrow."
02:17:21And I was like, yeah, that's a good way to
put it.
02:17:24Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
02:17:25And I've never tried cocaine, but from what
I hear, cocaine is borrowing happiness from
02:17:2710 minutes from now.
02:17:28I spoke to a guy recently who is a former
cocaine addict, and I said, what does it feel
02:17:34like?
02:17:35And he said, "Let me just explain it this
way."
02:17:36By the way, this is not a direct quote.
02:17:38I'm quoting somebody else.
02:17:39He said that the first time he did cocaine,
his experience was one of, "Wow, that was
02:17:44terrible.
02:17:45And when can I get more?"
02:17:46Tim Ferriss: Oh, God.
02:17:47Andrew Huberman: So that the gestalt of the
experience was a peak and then a trough that
02:17:50we know exists.
02:17:51The dopamine system drops below baseline.
02:17:54I'm too afraid to try cocaine.
02:17:55And especially nowadays with the fentanyl
it's laced in.
02:17:59So many street drugs.
02:18:00Tim Ferriss: I know two people, they were
at a bachelor party in Mexico.
02:18:05Otherwise, very responsible folks, but they
decide to do what a lot of people do at such
02:18:12parties and decided to do cocaine.
02:18:14They each did one line, not a copious amount.
02:18:19These were not cocaine users.
02:18:21Both of them immediately collapsed on the
floor.
02:18:25One died and one ended up in a coma for a
period of time.
02:18:28Andrew Huberman: Fentanyl.
02:18:29Tim Ferriss: Fentanyl.
02:18:30My best friend growing up, also was given,
unbeknownst to him, fentanyl.
02:18:35Died.
02:18:36Fell asleep, didn't wake up.
02:18:37So be very careful out there, folks.
02:18:40Fentanyl is no joke.
02:18:41And there are other things as well, but many,
many, many drugs are cut with fentanyl, including
02:18:49those that, at face value, you would think
make no sense.
02:18:52Andrew Huberman: Like Ambien.
02:18:53Tim Ferriss: Yeah, yeah.
02:18:54Andrew Huberman: Or cocaine.
02:18:56I mean, why they would cut fentanyl, which
is essentially a sedative, into a stimulant
02:19:01like cocaine makes no sense to me.
02:19:03Tim Ferriss: And yet, that's what's happening.
02:19:05So be careful out there, folks.
02:19:06So to move from cocaine to maybe a lesser
villain, I want to revisit cannabis for just
02:19:13a second.
02:19:14So cannabis in, I'm curious to know, because
I have experienced incredible β well, let's
02:19:22say, there may be trade-offs, but benefits
with respect to onset insomnia from low-dose
02:19:28edible, I could say cannabis, but in this
case, we're talking about in legal settings
02:19:37where state governments allow this, say 2.5
milligrams of THC.
02:19:42With CBD, it just takes too high β I mean,
I would have to consume just a mountain of
02:19:48it for it to subjectively help with that.
02:19:51What are the trade-offs, if any, with dosages
in that range?
02:19:55If you're aware?
02:19:56Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
02:19:57Depends on who you are.
02:19:58So I did an episode on cannabis, I also had
our mutual friend Nolan Williams, who's one
02:20:01of these freaks of nature.
02:20:04He's a triple board-certified psychiatrist,
neurologist, neurologist at Stanford, doing
02:20:09a lot on β
Tim Ferriss: Underachiever.
02:20:10Andrew Huberman: Yeah, a real underachiever.
02:20:11Doing a lot on combination of psychedelics
with transcranial magnetic stimulation.
02:20:15Talked about cannabis and I did a solo episode
on cannabis, which means basically all I did
02:20:18was think about, read about, and talk to people
about cannabis for months on end.
02:20:23Here's the story with cannabis.
02:20:24As you pointed out, it's going to be the ratio
of THC to CBD that's important.
02:20:28And for the real aficionados out there, and
boy, are they out there, because they let
02:20:31me know.
02:20:32Tim Ferriss: Oh, they are.
02:20:33Andrew Huberman: There's also the terpenes.
02:20:34They're going to be the lemon-like terpenes
and the other kinds of terpenes and chemicals
02:20:38in these things that are also going to matter.
02:20:40And then also it's going to be smoking, vaping,
edible, or tincture.
02:20:46So here's the deal.
02:20:47Smoking or vaping anything is bad.
02:20:49Nicotine or cannabis, or worse for you than
edible or tincture.
02:20:53Let's just move that off to the side.
02:20:56High-THC-concentration cannabis, of which
now there is almost pure THC cannabis available,
02:21:02is dangerous for the following reason.
02:21:04And there, I just pissed off some people.
02:21:06But first of all, it does have therapeutic
applications for glaucoma, pain management,
02:21:10maybe even some mental health effects, ability
to help certain people focus at low dose.
02:21:16But for, in particular, young males in their
teens, early teens and 20s, who take high-THC-containing
02:21:25cannabis, there is a much greater, 4X increase
in probability of psychotic episodes later,
02:21:33that don't ever reverse.
02:21:35In fact, when I spoke to the leading researcher
on this up in Canada, she told me that the
02:21:42probability that a lot of what we see as street
homelessness now, what people appear to be
02:21:48schizophrenic, was likely triggered by high-dose
cannabis use.
02:21:52Now, I'm not trying to return us to the 1960s
and talk about devil's weed and this kind
02:21:56of thing.
02:21:57It is clear that cannabis has therapeutic
benefits, but very high-potent CTHC cannabis
02:22:01can be a problem.
02:22:03At the dosage you described, 2.5 milligrams,
very unlikely to be a problem.
02:22:08Tim Ferriss: Psychologically speaking.
02:22:10Andrew Huberman: Psychologically speaking.
02:22:11Tim Ferriss: And I mean, I could be on 2.5,
I'm not, but I could be on 2.5 right now and
02:22:13it would not be discernible.
02:22:14Andrew Huberman: Sub-perceptible dose.
02:22:16It's like a microdose.
02:22:17Tim Ferriss: I would feel it, but it would
not be externally obvious.
02:22:20Andrew Huberman: Now, the pure CBD cannabis
is interesting too.
02:22:24So-called Charlotte's Web, I think is what
it's called, mainly available in Colorado,
02:22:27I'm told, is a powerful anti-epileptic.
02:22:30In fact, parents of epileptic kids move to
Colorado just so they can get Charlotte's
02:22:36Web CBD cannabis.
02:22:39In my mind, that should be available legally
everywhere, given that it has essentially
02:22:42no psychoactive effects.
02:22:44There are a few perhaps, so it's really that
the percentage of THC relative to CBD that's
02:22:50important.
02:22:51The age of the user, whether or not there's
a predisposition of psychosis.
02:22:54We might as well be talking about psychedelics.
02:22:55Tim Ferriss: We might as well be talking about
psychedelics, and I want to just pause for
02:22:59a second to say a few things.
02:23:02Number one, I don't categorize MDMA as a psychedelic.
02:23:05We may get to that, but just for a number
of semantic and phenomenological, I'll get
02:23:11fancy, reasons, I don't classify that as a
psychedelic.
02:23:16And I would actually categorize high THC content
cannabis as a strong potential psychedelic.
02:23:26And it has become, I would just say the standard,
the baseline of strength has become such a
02:23:33multiple of what anyone might have been used
to in, say, the '90s.
02:23:38It is almost beyond belief.
02:23:40And I do know of one direct example.
02:23:44This is the brother of an acquaintance who
had exactly the experience you're describing,
02:23:50which is chronic, short-term, but chronic
use of very high THC concentration cannabis,
02:24:01and I should say in fairness, that classical
psychedelics can also expedite the onset of
02:24:10schizophrenic symptoms in those who would
genetically be predisposed.
02:24:14So it's not limited to THC, but it is, I think,
under-respected and overused with the assumption
02:24:26that it's just cannabis.
02:24:28And I think that's a mistake.
02:24:30They can be so powerfully psychoactive.
02:24:32Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
02:24:33It's interesting how the proponents of cannabis,
which there are a lot of smart people in cannabis
02:24:39medicine, including a lot of MDs, always say
it's not as bad as alcohol.
02:24:45Which to me is just a ridiculous argument.
02:24:47I mean, to say that something is not as bad
as alcohol implies that you have to choose
02:24:52one or the other.
02:24:53I think that cannabis has been very beneficial
for a number of adults who are through the
02:24:58so-called critical period of brain plasticity.
02:25:00So older than 25, they need some way to quote,
unquote, take the edge off in the evening.
02:25:05They'll do an edible on the weekend, this
kind of thing.
02:25:07That is not what we're talking about in terms
of psychosis.
02:25:10We're talking about kids, 12, 13, 14, taking
a bong rip or smoking a joint or vaping a
02:25:17super high-potency, THC-containing cannabis
and just being high out of their gourd and
02:25:25feeling like it was a really good time, doing
that two or three times.
02:25:28And I've seen this over and over again.
02:25:30Their parents reach out to me often, in fact,
for whatever reason.
02:25:34And then you hear about this person being
17, 18, there's a failure to launch component.
02:25:38They're demotivated, they're claiming ADHD.
02:25:41They're basically a stoner who relies on cannabis
to relieve anxiety and hasn't done much else
02:25:49in the last five years, or certainly has not
managed to keep up with the mean.
02:25:55And here I'm sympathetic.
02:25:57By the way, you're listening to somebody who
barely finished high school.
02:25:59We covered that in the last podcast, so for
other reasons.
02:26:03But I think I do worry a lot about these super
high-potency compounds.
02:26:06I worry about super high-potency anything.
02:26:08I mean, I worry about, in the realm of hormone
augmentation, we're talking Fadogia, tongkat
02:26:13ali, not Dianabol.
02:26:15In the realm of augmenting mood and focus,
we're comparing very high-potency THC-containing
02:26:22cannabis taken in a youth, to 300 milligrams
of alpha GPC.
02:26:27This is night and day, right.
02:26:28It's chemical augmentation of a completely
different beast.
02:26:31So I think that it's clear that no cannabis
is going to be better for most people than
02:26:36any cannabis.
02:26:37Is occasionally used for an adult going to
be a problem?
02:26:40Probably not.
02:26:42Probably not.
02:26:43Tim Ferriss: I will also say, add to that
a few things.
02:26:45Number one, I am deeply interested in the
therapeutic applications of cannabis and all
02:26:56of its constituent parts.
02:26:57I think it is a very undervalued plant from
that perspective.
02:27:04And I think it is severely underestimated
in terms of potency.
02:27:11Just the standard available, particularly
in places where you can get the baker's dozen
02:27:20of any number of strains, Colorado, et cetera.
02:27:27To believe that you are using something of
almost no risk as compared to psychedelics,
02:27:36if it contains a lot of THC, is a mistake.
02:27:39So I would just say, consider it on par with
some of these very strong psychedelics.
02:27:45And just be informed and be cautious about
your use.
02:27:50I do think that there are probably some really
significant applications to sleep disorders.
02:28:00And I will add, just for people listening,
I have also tried CBN specifically, which
02:28:06has been recommended to me for sleep and have
not found it as effective.
02:28:11It probably depends on the specific variety
of sleep disorder, but for onset insomnia
02:28:16that is a product predominantly not of spike
glucose, well, I guess cortisol and or than
02:28:22glucose levels, but rather rumination, THC
seems to be, that seems to be one of the magic
02:28:28keys in very low doses.
02:28:30But let's segue from that to psychedelics.
02:28:35So how has your thinking, any observations,
commentary, beliefs around psychedelics changed
02:28:46over the last few years?
02:28:48Andrew Huberman: My beliefs and stance, and
also what I'm willing to say, has completely
02:28:54changed in the last 24 months.
02:28:57This last week, Stanford Magazine, which is
a magazine of the Stanford Alumni Association,
02:29:01goes out to many more people than just who
attended Stanford, put out an issue of this,
02:29:07it's a very nice bound magazine of the kind
that you would see at the dentist's office.
02:29:13On the cover and inside, there's a feature
article about psychedelics.
02:29:18I could not believe it at first, but it is
essentially a guide to psychedelics.
02:29:24It's not telling you how to do them, but it
explains what is ketamine.
02:29:27Now here, they're broadly defining psychedelics.
02:29:29So the classic psychedelics like psilocybin,
mescaline, and LSD are included there.
02:29:34Chemical structures, how they're used, the
history, clinical trials happening now, known
02:29:39benefits, considerations, and risks.
02:29:42For all of those drugs, plus ketamine, plus
MDMA.
02:29:45I was just shocked, positively shocked because
three years ago, five years ago, certainly
02:29:5110 years ago, a conversation like this would've
been the conversation that would've ended
02:29:54my career, at least as a university professor.
02:29:57My understanding is that thanks to the incredible
work of the group with MAPS and a number of
02:30:03specific laboratories, Matthew Johnson's laboratory,
Robin Carhart-Harris' laboratory, Roland Griffiths'
02:30:08laboratory, and thanks to the philanthropy
organized by you and others, and also thanks
02:30:15to the public education efforts of people
like Michael Pollan, we are moving very quickly
02:30:20towards legalization of MDMA as administered
by either psychiatrists and or licensed clinical
02:30:26psychologist in the US.
02:30:28Psilocybin is probably a longer road, but
I'm told that we'll get there, quote, unquote.
02:30:33Why am I framing it this way?
02:30:34Well, I definitely have a β I'll just be
very direct.
02:30:37In high school, I took LSD recreationally
several times.
02:30:41Had not good experiences.
02:30:42The experiences were far too long.
02:30:4511, 15 hours.
02:30:46I might have spent my senior prom in an elevator.
02:30:49Tim Ferriss: May or may not, cannot confirm
or deny.
02:30:52Andrew Huberman: No, my junior prom.
02:30:54My senior prom was a different story that
I definitely, and I'm not recommending people
02:30:57do this.
02:30:58I actually strongly regret doing that at a
time when my brain was plastic.
02:31:00I did not know what I was doing.
02:31:01I didn't know the sourcing.
02:31:03It was a terrible idea.
02:31:05Terrible idea.
02:31:06Tim Ferriss: Even riskier now.
02:31:07Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
02:31:08And keep in mind, folks, I was not a star
student, far from it.
02:31:09It took a lot of years to get my act together.
02:31:12Talked about this before on Tim's podcast,
Rich Roll's podcast, and others.
02:31:15So you know, that certainly did not help and
I don't recommend it.
02:31:19I tried psilocybin recreationally a few times,
didn't get much out of it.
02:31:24As an adult, not shy about the fact that I
did two and now three of the MAPS-appropriate,
02:31:33physician-guided sessions for trauma using
MDMA.
02:31:37I've found it immensely beneficial.
02:31:38I'm happy to talk about how each one of those
sessions was different.
02:31:41Again, this is with a physician as part of
a study.
02:31:46So what I know now is completely different
than what I knew two years ago, which is not
02:31:52just based on the legality, but in discussions
with Nolan Williams, this incredibly impressive
02:31:57colleague of mine and friend of yours and
colleague of yours, really, that the safety
02:32:02profiles on things like MDMA are actually
quite high.
02:32:05I was taught that MDMA was neurotoxic.
02:32:08Why was I taught that?
02:32:09Well, there's a paper published in Science
magazine looking at toxicity of MDMA, observing
02:32:15neurotoxic effects.
02:32:16Turns out, what were they looking at?
02:32:17Methamphetamine.
02:32:18Tim Ferriss: Oops, retraction.
02:32:19Andrew Huberman: Yeah, retraction.
02:32:21Except that never made the major headlines.
02:32:22Tim Ferriss: That never makes it.
02:32:23Andrew Huberman: Okay, so then you look at
the data on psilocybin.
02:32:25Here, I'm just going to hit the high points.
02:32:27Because it is not my work, it's the work of
Matthew Johnson and of Robin Carhart-Harris
02:32:31at UCSF.
02:32:32Intractable depression.
02:32:34People who are suicidally depressed, nothing
else works.
02:32:36Talk therapy doesn't work, antidepressants
don't work.
02:32:39TMS doesn't work.
02:32:41Do two high-dose, so it's 25 milligrams of
psilocybin that has to be translated for grams
02:32:47of mushrooms.
02:32:48But β
Tim Ferriss: It's roughly like the 25 to 30
02:32:50milligrams of psilocybin, synthetic psilocybin
B equivalent.
02:32:54Let's just say, a Terence McKenna heroic dose
of five grams.
02:32:57I mean, you're getting enough for escape velocity.
02:32:59Andrew Huberman: Okay.
02:33:01In upwards of 60 percent, maybe 70 percent
of these patients that take that are getting
02:33:05substantial and ongoing relief.
02:33:08That's an amazing result.
02:33:10So much so that the big pharma has moved in,
and is trying to create non-psychedelic psychedelics
02:33:15to extract the benefits of these drugs that
don't induce hallucinations.
02:33:20Instead of raising interesting questions about
whether or not the experience under psychedelics
02:33:23is really the trigger for the antidepressant
effect, whether or not it's the insight or
02:33:28not, that's a whole ball of wax.
02:33:30And really, I'm not qualified to parse that.
02:33:32That's really the domain of Robin and the
psychonauts, and that's an interesting set
02:33:38of issues.
02:33:40So my stance nowadays is, there is a compound
out there that seems to have very high safety
02:33:45profiles.
02:33:46Very, very high, certainly for psilocybin.
02:33:48That, under the appropriate guidance and supervision
during and after in this so-called integration
02:33:53phase, one or two dosages of this stuff, yes,
takes people through a phase of anxiety, then
02:33:59a phase of deep introspection.
02:34:01This is also, I learned, essential.
02:34:02There are two components that I learned that
are essential, that were surprising to me.
02:34:06One, you have to be in the eye mask.
02:34:08Observing things in your external environment
the whole time seems to bypass some of the
02:34:12introspective/antidepressant effects later.
02:34:16That's interesting to me.
02:34:17It's not just about what you see, what you
hear out there.
02:34:19It's really about going inward, this kind
of trust, let go.
02:34:22Tim Ferriss: Yeah.
02:34:23It's also important to standardize for trials.
02:34:25Right?
02:34:26You can't have people looking at all sorts
of different stuff.
02:34:28Somebody's watching Finding Nemo, another
one's watching Jaws.
02:34:30Andrew Huberman: Right, exactly.
02:34:32And then the other thing was, I learned from
Robin recently, is that music seems to be
02:34:36a key component.
02:34:38Now, they've never teased out music/no music.
02:34:40But having music that starts as he described
it in the distance, drums and pacing or something
02:34:45approaching music, then instrumentals, which
raise people's emotional state while they're
02:34:50in the eye mask, and then some transition
period out, seems to be a critical component
02:34:55of all this, and guiding some of the kind
of funneling towards deep emotional introspection.
02:35:01I find this incredibly interesting.
02:35:04And again, I would've not felt safe talking
about this, keep in mind, a year ago, two
02:35:08years ago.
02:35:09Keep in mind that in the late '60s, early
'70s, there were professors at Harvard and
02:35:15Stanford mainly that were fired, or at least
asked to leave, for having discussions like
02:35:20this.
02:35:21And now Stanford Magazine itself is printing
this.
02:35:24And this is also, I'll use this as an opportunity
to say this.
02:35:26Because it's really about the listeners.
02:35:28Our Huberman Lab podcast is free on all the
channels.
02:35:32But we do have a premium channel.
02:35:34I'm not trying to solicit it here, but the
premium channel is designed to, we do AMAs
02:35:38and things of that sort, transcripts are available
to those folks, to raise revenue for research
02:35:43dollars for exciting work.
02:35:44And we have a donor that's been very generous
to do a match for that money.
02:35:48And we're giving money only to studies working
on humans, not animal studies.
02:35:53And two of the major areas that we're supporting
are the sorts of work that Nolan's lab is
02:35:58doing, and Nolan in particular, to combine
transcranial magnetic stimulation with psychedelics
02:36:03and these sorts of things.
02:36:04Tim Ferriss: Oh, that's great.
02:36:05I didn't know that about the premium option.
02:36:06Andrew Huberman: Yeah, that's really what
the premium channel is designed for.
02:36:09Tim Ferriss: Yeah, that's great.
02:36:10Andrew Huberman: And this is, again, I'm going
to say this again.
02:36:12People are going to think that I'm just here
kissing up to Tim, but I'm doing that over
02:36:15text all the time anyway.
02:36:16Because this is yet an another example where
you got into science philanthropy early, you
02:36:22reached out to your connects, you were very
vocal about what you felt was powerful and
02:36:27had worked for you and what you'd been observing.
02:36:28And I am absolutely clear, I've said this
on Twitter, I'll say it again.
02:36:32When we look back in five years, 10 years,
a hundred years, there's going to be a small
02:36:36subset of individuals for whom the transition
of psychedelics from these niche communities,
02:36:42hippie communities, carpet flyers, everything
from devil's weed craziness to truly effective
02:36:50compounds for treating psychiatric illness,
you're going to be on that list.
02:36:55Roland's going to be on that list.
02:36:56Matthew's going to be on that list.
02:36:58Pollan's going to be on that list.
02:36:59Robin's going to be on that list.
02:37:02And Nolan, I think, is going to be on that
list.
02:37:03There's going to be a small subset of people
that we're going to go, listen, research takes
02:37:07money, it takes focus, it takes a bravery,
and it also takes the willingness to take
02:37:11something that has been looked at as just
drugs, and turn it into something that's therapeutically
02:37:17meaningful.
02:37:18So yeah, we're just, all I'm trying to do
is raise some dollars through the premium
02:37:21channel.
02:37:22That's what we've been doing to pump into
research studies.
02:37:25So I mean, you can tell I'm super excited
by all this.
02:37:28What I see happening now is that soon, MDMA
for trauma is going to be available to the
02:37:35countless numbers of people out there that
have trauma.
02:37:39And I don't mean just take MDMA and have a
great time.
02:37:43I mean, people developing empathy for themselves.
02:37:46I mean, people really working through the
barbed wire stuff of their past, much of which
02:37:52they had no control over, that sets this transgenerational
thing that's been going on for so long.
02:37:58I mean, really, you've used the language to
bend the arc of history.
02:38:03These compounds are going to bend the arc
of history in the right direction.
02:38:06And if people out there are listening and
saying, "Okay, well this is recreational stuff
02:38:12and it's very precarious."
02:38:13I do not know a single major, let's just call
them what they are, CEO or company founder,
02:38:18we're talking about people at kind of billionaire-level
that are hyper creative, hyper creative, and
02:38:24hyperfunctional in their life.
02:38:25We're not telling you about mystic creatives.
02:38:27We're talking about people who, I don't want
to name names, but every single one of them
02:38:31already knows this is true.
02:38:33Because they've all done this stuff already.
02:38:36And I was kind of late to the train.
02:38:38Because I had such a terrible experience in
my high school years, and saw so many friends,
02:38:42dead, suicide, drug addicts in jail, wrecked
their lives.
02:38:46I had so many challenges taking myself from
essentially a loser with nowhere to go to
02:38:52a trajectory within academia and taking good
care of my body that I was like, no drugs,
02:38:56no drugs.
02:38:57I don't even put psychedelics in the category
of drugs.
02:38:59And here I'm lumping MDMA in there, provided
it's done with a licensed physician or clinician
02:39:05who can guide this stuff.
02:39:06It's been immensely beneficial for me.
02:39:08Tim Ferriss: What were your different sessions
to the extent that you're willing to share?
02:39:13Andrew Huberman: The first one I can just
summarize by saying was extremely somatic.
02:39:20Waves of β a lot of shaking.
02:39:22At the beginning of the session, I walked
in feeling like I could think and feel things
02:39:26from the neck up.
02:39:29I could feel things from the waist down, but
that my body wasn't integrated as a system.
02:39:34I left that session feeling completely comfortable
in my body as a whole system, and far more
02:39:41in tune with my emotions.
02:39:44Far more comfortable being, having emotions.
02:39:47Far less afraid of what emotions might do
to me, whether or not they were evoked from
02:39:52inside or from outside.
02:39:53I felt, as a consequence, I felt much braver
in the world.
02:39:58And I felt a kind of a healthy adaptive level
of fearlessness, because I felt like nothing
02:40:02can hijack my internal emotions.
02:40:05And even if they do, I'll be okay.
02:40:08And that was a significant thing.
02:40:11The second session, very different.
02:40:13I expected everything as I did in the first,
never works that way.
02:40:17Was one of deep, deep, deep acceptance around
resents that I had for people that I felt
02:40:26had neglected me.
02:40:27Or just did not do what they needed to do.
02:40:30Or that I felt a lot of, and you might be
able to sense a little bit of emotion here.
02:40:34It's hard because I can still sense the ways
in which thoughts about that are painful,
02:40:39but mostly because it seems so senseless to
me now.
02:40:42And yet I have truly zero resent.
02:40:46I look for it often, to just check myself
to it.
02:40:49No resent, complete forgiveness, which has
given me tremendous relief.
02:40:53And then the third session was interesting.
02:40:55Third session was a higher dose.
02:40:56I had never taken the booster, the MAPS booster.
02:40:59Took the booster, and I lay completely still
for about eight hours.
02:41:05And it was very introspective.
02:41:08And I think I left that session, and I still
maintained from all β everything I've described
02:41:12by the way, I feel I've maintained years later
now.
02:41:16The third session, which was more recent,
I felt I finally understood and kind of sealed
02:41:21up what I can only describe as boundaries.
02:41:24That other people can have emotions and experiences
that are truly separate from me.
02:41:30I tend to be pretty affiliative.
02:41:31I think that came out of an early, especially
with friends and in relationships, it came
02:41:36out of an early need to feel some sense of
family where I didn't feel that as much as
02:41:41I would've liked from my biological family.
02:41:45And there have been times when I've been unable
to really keep in touch with how my life is
02:41:55distinct from, and my emotions are distinct
from other peoples'.A little bit too much
02:41:58of empathic blurring sometimes.
02:42:00And I felt like that was just sealed right
up.
02:42:03And mind you, each time I went into these
sessions, I was afraid of all the standard
02:42:06things.
02:42:07Losing my mind, having a heart attack.
02:42:08Now granted, if you have heart issues, tell
your physician you don't want to do MDMA.
02:42:12It is an amphetamine in there.
02:42:14But I was afraid of all the standard stuff.
02:42:17Each time I felt like the window on introspection
and plasticity lasted much longer, weeks longer.
02:42:24And each time I just felt like I got better
and better at self-care.
02:42:29Which, in my mind, was always a very selfish
thing.
02:42:32I always thought self-care is selfish.
02:42:35Even working out, I used to hide working out
when I'd go to conferences.
02:42:38Because I thought no academic goes to the
gym and lifts weights.
02:42:41And I really liked doing that, but I realized
how much stronger I was mentally when I was
02:42:44taking care of my physical body.
02:42:46But I think that things have changed now.
02:42:49So the third session was very meaningful for
me, because I felt like it kind of sealed
02:42:53something up.
02:42:54Where I go, okay, I'm good.
02:42:57Things can happen around me, and I'm not going
to get pulled into it in a way that compromises
02:43:03my well-being.
02:43:05Of course, I still have a lot in there, and
work to do.
02:43:08And Robin Carhart-Harris said to me recently,
he said, "Well, psilocybin is really the honest
02:43:13psychedelic.
02:43:14Because you don't have the empathogen that's
woven into the MDMA, so you're really going
02:43:18to see whatever darkness still exists within
you."
02:43:20And I thought, oh, goodness.
02:43:21But now I am β
Tim Ferriss: Spoken as a true psilocybin researcher.
02:43:25Andrew Huberman: I know.
02:43:26So you hear about people, is it calling to
you?
02:43:30I'm afraid to do psilocybin for that reason.
02:43:32I definitely worked hard to suppress some
of the dark clouds in my head.
02:43:38But the fact that I'm still a bit afraid of
them is probably the reason why I should do
02:43:41it.
02:43:42Tim Ferriss: Well, it also, I think means
you're coming to it from an intellectually
02:43:47honest place.
02:43:48If someone has absolutely no concerns or misgivings
about extremely powerful psychedelics, I mean,
02:43:57you are playing with psychological nuclear
power.
02:44:00Andrew Huberman: Yeah, revealing the unconscious.
02:44:02I mean, I didn't even know what psychedelic
meant, but I mean Robin taught me, it means
02:44:07revealing the unconscious mind.
02:44:08Tim Ferriss: Yeah, mind manifesting.
02:44:10Andrew Huberman: And I still do extensive
amounts of psychotherapy and psychoanalysis.
02:44:14I look at that as just like going to the gym.
02:44:16I'm fortunate that my insurance can help pay
for that and I'm able to pay for it, so I
02:44:21understand not everybody can.
02:44:22But I still feel that if we don't actually
take the time to figure out what's going on
02:44:26in our head, how can we really trust that
we're on the best path?
02:44:29Tim Ferriss: Yeah.
02:44:30Or just representing reality to our benefit,
in a sense.
02:44:36Right?
02:44:37Because we're perceiving but also constructing
reality.
02:44:40And sometimes if you think your glasses are
scratched, or smeared, or foggy or whatever,
02:44:48you need to take them off and look at them.
02:44:50There are very few ways to do that with your
own psyche.
02:44:53There are very few tools that allow you to
do that.
02:44:57And I would recommend for folks if they are
interested in, and thank you for being so
02:45:01forthcoming with describing your experiences,
getting a good overview of how MDMA specifically
02:45:09can help with say, complex PTSD.
02:45:13And why it has become such a focal point for
many, many researchers and practitioners.
02:45:19I do recommend the Netflix, How to Change
Your Mind miniseries that Pollan was involved
02:45:26with based on the book of the same name.
02:45:29And specifically, the MDMA episode I thought
was spectacularly well-done.
02:45:33Andrew Huberman: I need to see that, still.
02:45:35Tim Ferriss: It's very well done, and includes
a lot of case studies in interviews with research
02:45:40subjects.
02:45:41And there's also a documentary that I helped
bring to, well, outside of Israel called Trip
02:45:46of Compassion.
02:45:47This was probably four or five years ago,
which contains session footage as well.
02:45:53Production value is going to be a bit lower
than Netflix, so you might want to try that
02:45:57first.
02:45:58But there are a number of forthcoming books
coming that'll be focused on these topics.
02:46:01A lot of good stuff happening.
02:46:02Andrew Huberman: It's exciting.
02:46:03Tim Ferriss: In terms of investigation, there
are risks.
02:46:07There are very non-trivial risks.
02:46:11And that is part of the reason why the fundamental
research is important, which is why people
02:46:20like, I have to mention Roland because he
was my gateway into so much of this.
02:46:25Roland Griffiths, and Robin, and Nolan and
others are doing very, very important work.
02:46:32Because there's the commercialization, there's
the development of derivatives and perhaps
02:46:39non-psychedelic options.
02:46:41And I think that they hold promise in certain
conditions like cluster headaches, for instance.
02:46:49However, I do firmly fall into the camp that
believes there are these mechanistic, receptor-level
02:46:57effects.
02:46:58And many other physiological, measurable effects
that exert or impart some of the benefits
02:47:05that we document in trials.
02:47:09But I am firmly in the camp that the content
matters, deeply.
02:47:14Andrew Huberman: Robin and I and Nolan and
I also discussed things like iboga, ibogaine,
02:47:2122-hour long psychedelic journey, no hallucinations
with the eyes open, close the eyes, see β drop
02:47:27into very vivid imagery of previous experiences.
02:47:31That doesn't interest me so much, it seems
a little bit much.
02:47:33It's going to be hard also to do clinical
studies on that.
02:47:36As Robin pointed out, one of the reasons why
most of the trials are being done with psilocybin
02:47:40or MDMA is because the sessions are four to
six hours.
02:47:42With some aftercare LSD, double or triple
that.
02:47:48And of course, we should point out that street
MDMA could very well be, and is often laced
02:47:53with fentanyl.
02:47:54So the sourcing here must be through MAPS.
02:47:56I think they're the only ones that actually
have the clean sourcing of MDMA.
02:48:01I know people out there will be like, "I know
a clean source."
02:48:03But nowadays I think people need to be exceedingly
cautious about fentanyl because it's deadly.
02:48:06Tim Ferriss: Yeah, there's a great β I just
want to butt in for a second.
02:48:07There is an organization called DanceSafe,
which I encourage people to check out, which
02:48:12provides kits.
02:48:14Because I know that you know can tell kids,
"Abstain, no sex, no sex, just no sex until
02:48:20you're married."
02:48:21They're going to have sex anyway.
02:48:22So I recognize people who are listening are
probably going to use drugs from unclear sourcing,
02:48:28or it will be a game of telephone.
02:48:30It'll be from five different, 10 different,
12 different, a hundred different hands to
02:48:34theirs.
02:48:35DanceSafe has kits.
02:48:37I'm not recommending that you use drugs in
that fashion, but people are going to do it
02:48:41anyway.
02:48:42There are kits you can purchase which will
help you to detect some of these contaminants.
02:48:47So at the very least do that type of due diligence.
02:48:50Andrew Huberman: Yeah, yeah.
02:48:51So you asked how do I feel about these compounds
done in the clinical setting and how has my
02:48:56stance changed?
02:48:59Complete 180.
02:49:00Complete 180.
02:49:01I'm super curious.
02:49:02I'm super excited.
02:49:03And least of all for me, I'm excited about
what, my experience, it was very positive
02:49:07all around.
02:49:08But I'm most excited for the millions and
millions, maybe even billions of people out
02:49:13there.
02:49:14Billions of people certainly have trauma,
but the millions of people who are impaired,
02:49:18in terms of daily mood and basic functioning
because of depression, anxiety.
02:49:22I mean, there are psilocybin trials for fibromyalgia,
for anorexia nervosa, the most deadly psychiatric
02:49:29illness is anorexia.
02:49:30Of course, people with bipolar or schizophrenia,
these are not good candidates because of the
02:49:35propensity for exacerbating psychosis or for
manic episodes.
02:49:38But I think we are heading into really interesting
times.
02:49:43And a year or two ago, I would've thought,
ah, this isn't going to make it through the
02:49:46chute.
02:49:47Something's going to happen and the whole
thing's going to fall apart.
02:49:49I think it was the event that we were both
at, the Veterans Solutions event on Coronado
02:49:53Island.
02:49:54It's an incredible group that you're associated
with, and we have common friends from the
02:49:58special operations community who are doing
these iboga DMT combined sessions out of country,
02:50:03and then working with Nolan Williams to look
at how the brain changes.
02:50:08And we saw Governor Rick Perry there, a pretty
right-wing guy.
02:50:13Tim Ferriss: Yeah, he interviewed Rick and
Rick.
02:50:16About as far apart, politically, as you can
be.
02:50:18Andrew Huberman: And then Rick Doblin, who
stood up there and said in front of a room
02:50:21full of special operators that he'd been a
conscientious objector during the Vietnam
02:50:25War.
02:50:26And I thought, wow, if he doesn't get killed
in this room, he's going to survive forever.
02:50:29In other words, polar extremes politically.
02:50:32Standing there talking about psychedelics
and their value for treatment of intractable
02:50:37depression, trauma, offsetting the certain
amount of suicide risk in many individuals.
02:50:43Talking about, I think I heard Rick Perry
say the words "heart medicine."
02:50:47I almost fell out of my chair.
02:50:49I mean, this is super exciting.
02:50:50And it's super exciting because, the only
way to describe it is the way that Paul Conti
02:50:55sometimes describes things.
02:50:57There's certain things for which there's a
lot of work, a lot of potential hazards, but
02:51:02that done properly β and he wasn't referring
to psychedelics when he said this, but this
02:51:05particular, but there's so much goodness that
could come out of this.
02:51:09The amount of goodness that could come out
of everyone having access to great medical
02:51:13care, therapy, and potentially psychedelic
therapies.
02:51:17I mean, just imagine the magnitude of the
world change.
02:51:20That's the kind of stuff that gets chills
running up my spine.
02:51:23And you just think, well, gosh, but the scale
of that problem is just too big, legally,
02:51:27financially.
02:51:28But enough has happened now that at least
some of that, in terms of psychedelics, could
02:51:32very well happen.
02:51:33And again, to clarify, Paul Conti wasn't talking
about psychedelics.
02:51:37He just has this, occasionally he'll say something
β we're doing a series with him on mental
02:51:42health.
02:51:43And occasionally he'll say something like,
"Certain things are just goodness."
02:51:47And I love the sound of that because it sounds,
there's something so wholesome about it, but
02:51:50so real.
02:51:51I mean, waking up and feeling good enough
to pursue the basic events of the day, with
02:51:57some hardship of course from time to time,
good enough to set a goal, and fail, and then
02:52:02try again.
02:52:03Good enough to have a rough run through a
relationship, or a hard family life, or lose
02:52:10all your money and go bankrupt and come back.
02:52:12That's the stuff of real life.
02:52:14And I think that there's so many so-called
deaths of despair, and then there are 10 times
02:52:20more sort of lives of despair out there.
02:52:23And I think there's seriously the opportunity
for real healing, for lack of a better word.
02:52:28Tim Ferriss: High leverage, very high leverage.
02:52:31I'm excited to see where it goes.
02:52:33And I would tell people also, don't be shy
about following the money.
02:52:40In the sense that, there will be every possible
attempt to contort and change psychedelic
02:52:50therapies to fit into existing healthcare.
02:52:53And I do think there's upside to that.
02:52:57Not everyone is going to be able to afford
whatever the costs may be to receive bespoke
02:53:06medical care with a session that lasts 18
hours.
02:53:10Or whatever it is, 12 hours, let's just say
in the case of the sort of upper range for
02:53:14some people with LSD.
02:53:17However, if you see a company that's saying
5-MeO-DMT is the ticket because it's the businessman's
02:53:23psychedelic therapy because it lasts 15 minutes,
take a sniff test or two first.
02:53:30And also just because it's 15 minutes Earth-time
doesn't mean your experience 15 minutes.
02:53:33So just be cautious with that.
02:53:36The removal of psychedelic effects also makes
it much more adaptable, and plug-and-play
02:53:45with current healthcare practitioners and
things can be turned into maintenance doses.
02:53:51Andrew Huberman: Or for kids.
02:53:52Tim Ferriss: Or for kids, right.
02:53:54So you say, if you take generic ketamine,
and I'm not going to name too many names,
02:53:58but some of the sort of slight molecular changes
that have been made to create, say, maintenance
02:54:06doses with nasal sprays.
02:54:09I do think that, at least for me, and I may
be old-fashioned, but I do think that these
02:54:14compounds, in relatively few sessions, have
the potential to induce plasticity, provide
02:54:20experiences that have β I'm not going to
say, well, in some cases curative capability
02:54:28or potential, but extremely high durability.
02:54:32We're talking about the order of years.
02:54:34So I think people should be skeptical of companies
that aim to create maintenance drugs from
02:54:39these.
02:54:40Although that could be applicable to certain
populations that, say, may fit into exclusionary
02:54:46criteria because they can't take higher doses
for risk of say, psychosis.
02:54:51But they might be able to take very, very
low doses along the lines of, say, a microdose.
02:54:55Which wouldn't impart the perhaps content
experiences, but could have some effects on
02:55:01say, serotonin type 2A receptors, but intracellularly,
which I was just reading about.
02:55:07I would recommend if people want to keep up
to speed with these things, The Microdose
02:55:11from UC Berkeley is fantastic.
02:55:14That's sort of a news bulletin summary on
a weekly basis.
02:55:17If you want a good overview, I think How to
Change Your Mind is a great place to start.
02:55:22If you want to know how some psychotherapists
have worked with these things, I think an
02:55:25oldie but a goodie, The Healing Journey by
Claudio Naranjo, I think is excellent.
02:55:29Even if you just buy it for the introduction,
I think MAPS sells that.
02:55:33So a lot of good resources out there.
02:55:35Andrew, we've covered a lot of ground.
02:55:37Andrew Huberman: We have.
02:55:38Tim Ferriss: And it's so nice to spend time
together.
02:55:41We're going to grab some dinner.
02:55:42Is there anything that you would like to add,
point people to, any closing comments you'd
02:55:46like to make before we wrap up?
02:55:47Andrew Huberman: No.
02:55:49At one point we had thought we might cover
how to optimize a podcast, and there I'm just
02:55:54going to point people to the great series
that you did, I think it was one or two episodes.
02:55:58Tim Ferriss: I did an episode with Chris Hutchins
because he wanted to ask me a million questions
02:56:05about podcasting, and I said, "You know what?
02:56:08I get asked this all the time.
02:56:10Let's just record a podcast and then I can
point people to the podcast."
02:56:12Andrew Huberman: Perfect.
02:56:13Well, my whole team listened to it.
02:56:15My whole team listened to it, and talked about
it, and used it as kind of a checklist for
02:56:19whether or not we were doing things right.
02:56:20That was about a year ago, and things are
going well.
02:56:23So I'll just point people to that episode.
02:56:24Hopefully you can link to that episode because
it's really great.
02:56:27We thought, yes, yes.
02:56:28And oops, we better be doing that.
02:56:30No, I really just want to extend my gratitude
for the work you've done in the past.
02:56:36I know I've mentioned it over and over.
02:56:37And I'm sure some listeners are probably like,
here he goes again, thanking Tim.
02:56:40But I would not be podcasting were it not
for you, and Lex Friedman, who gave me the
02:56:46final nudge.
02:56:47And also, I've just gleaned so much valuable
knowledge from your books, and your podcasts,
02:56:51and learned so much from you.
02:56:53So again, for me, it's like pure delight to
be sitting here having this conversation.
02:56:58I feel very honored and I'm really grateful
to you and your team.
02:57:02And I hope you'll come on the Huberman Lab
podcast before long.
02:57:05Tim Ferriss: Oh, I will.
02:57:07Absolutely.
02:57:08Andrew Huberman: I can't wait.
02:57:09Tim Ferriss: Need to make a trip to SoCal.
02:57:10Thanks for saying all that, it really means
a lot.
02:57:13And it has been a fucking blast to watch you
just storm the front, man.
02:57:20It's really been fun to see the podcast do
as well as it has done to see that.
02:57:27Then also lead into other types of snowball
effects like providing funding, as I just
02:57:38learned for studies, vis-a-vis the premium
option.
02:57:42And keep it up, man.
02:57:44I am certainly learning a lot and taking notes
myself.
02:57:48You can see the notes in front of me.
02:57:49It may not be visible on video, but I've been
taking notes through the whole conversation,
02:57:53as I always do when I listen to you, listen
to you talk.
02:57:55Whether it's on your podcast or in person.
02:57:58So people can find you, hubermanlab.com.
02:58:00We will link to YouTube, Instagram, Twitter,
but it is Huberman Lab on all of these platforms.
02:58:07And I encourage people to subscribe.
02:58:09Check it out.
02:58:10And thank you, Andrew.
02:58:12And to everybody listening, we will have links
to all sorts of things, including that light
02:58:17vest that we'll figure out in the show notes
at tim.blog/podcast.
02:58:22You can just search Andrew or Huberman, H-U-B-E-R-M-A-N,
and all things will pop up.
02:58:27So until next time, just be a bit kinder than
as necessary to other people and yourself.
02:58:33And pay attention to those fundamentals, those
pillars.
02:58:37All good things come from paying attention
to those checklists.
02:58:41And as always, thanks for tuning in.
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