How This Game Dev Sold 1,000,000 Copies of His Game (In A WEEK)
Thomas Brush2024-01-29
thomas#brush#make a living from indie game development#marketing with $0 budget#Daily Deal on Steam#going viral on imgur for indie games#marketing#full-time indie developer#marketing first Unity game#cult of the lamb#interview#podcast#game development#making of cultic#jay armstrong#unity#unity vs unreal#unreal#2D game#2D art#2D illustration#photoshop#platformer#how to make games
24K views|7 months ago
💫 Short Summary
The video highlights the game Cult of the Lamb, discussing updates, player engagement, and game development challenges. It emphasizes the importance of maintaining quality, finding a strong hook, simplifying game features, and fostering teamwork. The creators share their journey from solo development to collaboration, the transition to Unity, and the impact of success on their perspective. The segment also touches on leadership, decision-making, and the struggles of game development, concluding with gratitude towards supporters and encouragement for viewer engagement in game creation.
✨ Highlights
📊 Transcript
✦
Release of new update for Cult of the Lamb.
00:46Developers added significant content for free to show appreciation to players and express gratitude.
Update generated controversy and increased visibility on social media.
Positive reception from players led to increased virality for the game.
Importance of maintaining quality for successful future in game development discussed.
✦
Importance of balancing fun core game systems with a compelling hook in game development.
04:19Marketing and having a brilliant idea are crucial for engaging players.
Poll shows game developers prioritize creating a game they love over financial success.
Emphasis on perseverance and willingness to endure challenges to succeed as a full-time game developer.
Finding a strong hook for the next game is described as a painful but essential step in game development.
✦
Importance of effective communication in presenting ideas.
06:50Initial challenges in defining the core concept of a game.
Success achieved by focusing on a cult theme.
Significance of storytelling and presentation in gaining audience interest.
Making strategic choices in communication without selling out.
✦
Importance of creating games with replay value in game development.
08:24Mention of the 'big butt principle' for generating game ideas and drawing inspiration from previous games.
Emphasis on avoiding single-use content and learning from successful games like Stardew Valley and Rimworld.
Discussion on the popularity of Rogue-like games such as Enter the Gungeon for their replayability and content longevity.
✦
Importance of Unique and Familiar Hooks in Game Development
12:22Short and compelling game descriptions are crucial for attracting interest and creating intrigue.
Developers often struggle to prioritize obsessively focusing on a unique hook.
Simplicity in game design, as seen in examples like Choo Choo Charles Spider Train, can be highly effective.
Balancing simplicity and complexity is a key consideration in game development.
✦
Importance of keeping projects pure and simple.
14:31Success of Cult of the Lamb due to timing, PR team, and marketing collaboration with Devolver.
Previous projects like Adventure P and Never Give Up lacked a strong hook.
Refining game concept through pitching at conventions and observing audience reactions.
Significance of a captivating hook for attracting interest.
✦
Development process of Cult of the Lamb.
17:19Balancing traditional game elements with unique features like player sacrifices and rituals.
Making players care about in-game followers and guiding them towards increasingly evil actions.
Importance of the game's hook in setting player expectations and providing accountability for promised features.
✦
Importance of click-through rate and retention in YouTube videos.
20:15A strong thumbnail and engaging content are essential to keep viewers watching.
Fulfilling promises made in the video hook is crucial to avoid negative reviews.
Challenges of creating a cult management simulation game were discussed, including incorporating elements like indoctrination, belief systems, and rituals.
Sacrifices were made early in the game development process to ensure a compelling experience for players.
✦
Development process focused on player interaction with followers.
22:37Followers were initially viewed as crops to maintain in the game.
Sacrificing followers for personal benefit was a late addition, adding depth to gameplay.
Iterative process involved scrapping entire systems and AB testing to refine features.
Followers improving dungeon performance and vice versa was a key gameplay loop.
✦
Importance of building out a game over strictly following a Game Design Document (GDD).
25:00Moving quickly and lack of resources to maintain a GDD with a small team.
Utilizing tools like slideshows and Miro for planning game development.
Emphasizing flexibility in game development and allowing the game to guide its creation.
✦
Importance of finding what works for you in terms of diets and game development.
27:41Emphasizes the need to figure out solutions that suit your body and team dynamics.
Shares personal experiences of constantly changing aspects of their game project.
Highlights the importance of being responsive to how the game is feeling and coming together.
Mentions the concept of defining design pillars for a game as a guiding principle for decision-making in game development.
✦
Importance of simplifying game features for enhanced focus and gameplay quality.
31:33Introduction of 'Team Sneaky Boys' advocating for impactful additions to the game through quick implementation.
Discussion on unique rituals and mechanics like marrying followers to enrich gameplay experience.
Impact of decisions on game development and producer dynamics, balancing innovation and meeting deadlines.
✦
Breeding mechanics and baby followers in the game.
32:53Followers are taken to a mating tent to breed and decide compatibility.
Baby followers added, requiring interactions to be implemented.
Importance of checking in with followers to prevent them from leaving the cult.
Benefits of teamwork in game development, emphasizing efficiency and time-saving aspects.
✦
The speaker highlights the journey from solo developer to forming Massive Moner with partners Julian and Jimp.
36:05He stresses the significance of collaborating with talented individuals who inspire and challenge you.
The team members complement each other's strengths and responsibilities, maintaining alignment and resolving disagreements through experimentation.
Despite facing challenges such as pandemic-induced stress during development, the trio achieved a strong partnership.
✦
Team members live on different continents to maintain focus and avoid constant interaction.
38:39Pressure to impress each other with work leads to brutally honest critiques to improve the game.
Despite ego, team prioritizes making the game better and shares a common goal.
Recognize the importance of opportunity with Devolver and the need for game to be both familiar and innovative to succeed.
✦
Importance of Team Commitment in Achieving Success.
41:05Clear vision and alignment among team members are essential for success.
Personal experiences of challenges in finding the right team dynamics and collaborators for projects.
Emphasis on taking time to build a committed team to avoid conflicts and misalignments in vision.
✦
Importance of cohesive vision and communication in game development.
43:23Creating concepts, task lists, and outlining game vision for contractors.
Team includes talented individuals like writers and programmers.
Clear delegation and solid understanding of game focus, such as improving dungeon aspect.
Emphasized the role of team collaboration in executing ideas effectively.
✦
Importance of new features in game development.
46:13Clear vision and quick pivoting are crucial for success.
Emphasis on teamwork and alignment towards common goals.
Building strong relationships and communication for a supportive work environment.
✦
Balancing family, work, and friendships while feeling guilty about making changes in projects and questioning if it's abusive to the team's time.
49:40Importance of having team members who are kind and understanding, but also expressing concerns about taking advantage of their time.
Mentioning the movie 'Touching the Void' to illustrate the concept of trust in a vision.
Discussion revolving around leadership, team dynamics, and the challenges of making decisions that impact others.
✦
Importance of making decisions and moving forward with guidance.
52:38Having an overarching vision helps focus on the big picture.
Team happiness and collaboration are crucial in achieving goals.
Three pillars for the game: Bioshock with a Willy Wonka twist, Half-Life mechanics, player agency and choice.
✦
Importance of gameplay mechanics, storytelling, and visual design in game development.
54:54Emphasis on cohesive and emotional storyline to align with core pillars of the game.
Significance of every decision made in the game to resonate with players.
Focusing on these three elements helps the team work towards a unified vision.
Example of successful implementation in the God of War reboot.
✦
Summary of Unity Debacle
57:51Unity initially planned to charge for installs, leading to backlash from users.
Backtracking on the decision, Unity faced trust issues due to their measurement tools.
The CEO stepped down, and pricing changes were introduced in response to the backlash.
The speaker's tweet about Unity's changes caused panic among users, leading to a discussion with Unity.
✦
Proposed changes and fees in a gaming platform sparks outrage.
01:01:05Company representatives address concerns and introduce lower fees, but controversy remains.
Comparison with other pricing models raises questions about long-term sustainability.
Personal experience shared about transitioning between different platforms.
✦
Transition to Unity from other platforms like Flash and Hacks due to user-friendly interface and efficiency in game development.
01:04:31Challenges with text-based coding and manual compilation processes highlighted.
Positive experiences with Unity representatives and the impact of industry recognition on decision-making discussed.
Appreciation expressed for Unity despite past difficulties.
Emphasis on the importance of understanding Unity for successful game creation.
✦
Transition from hacks to Unity for game development.
01:06:05Challenges and learning curve of using Unity for their first project, Cult of the Lamb.
Comparison of capabilities between Unity and Unreal engines, with Unity's strength in 2D development.
Importance of 2D art assets and hand-drawn animations in their game development process.
✦
Reflections on success and empathy.
01:10:15Becoming comfortable with success may lead to losing sight of others' struggles.
Having a baby during a game launch kept the speaker grounded and prevented ego inflation.
Emphasis on staying humble, acknowledging privilege, and maintaining empathy.
Understanding the importance of empathy for those facing challenges.
✦
The creators faced intense struggle, financial pressure, and fear of failure in the game development process.
01:11:56Despite setbacks, they were able to achieve success and support their families.
The experience was raw and unforgettable, with memories of fear and tight deadlines.
They hope to see more successful developers in the future, emphasizing the need for support and guidance in the industry.
✦
Speaker expresses gratitude towards viewers for supporting their game and promises to continue improving it.
01:14:34Speaker reminisces about meeting a YouTuber at a convention and expresses pride in their success.
Speaker offers a free game kit for viewers to create their own games.
Speaker requests support through likes, subscribes, and notifications for future content.
Conversation ends with a message of appreciation and love towards the audience.
00:00Jay dude thanks for taking the time to
00:01chat man this is going to be I've been
00:03looking forward to this conversation
00:05for man how long's it been two months of
00:09planning to talk about uh I want to talk
00:11about cold to the land but before we
00:12even get into it let me know about this
00:15new update with cult to the lamb and by
00:17the way guys the link is in the
00:18description Thomas Anthony Andrew Maas
00:21brush it's an honor to chat to you um
00:25we've done this a couple times and I
00:27always love it it's always great and um
00:29as I said every time it feels like we
00:30sort of came up together because we both
00:32had games uh with the same publisher at
00:35the same time so it always feels like
00:37you know talking to an old friend let's
00:38talk about sins of the flesh which is
00:40this new update coming out um the day
00:44that we're recording this actually it's
00:46coming out now so this one's been really
00:48exciting because um we did we did One
00:52update already um but our updates tend
00:55to be like just huge so the last one we
00:58did was called Relic to the old fa and
01:00we doubled the length of the game we
01:02added like 12 hours of content um and
01:04kind of a lot of people sort of saying
01:06like shouldn't you be charging people
01:08for this um and we just felt like no we
01:10wanted to we wanted to get it to people
01:12because we know you know it's it's you
01:14know we're lucky to keep working on the
01:16game a lot of the time you know if you
01:17have a game and it doesn't find an
01:19audience you just have to like send it
01:20off and it's like y you know it's like
01:23sending a kid out into the world like un
01:25you know without all the necessary you
01:28know things that it needs to survive
01:29where we're lucky that we can kind of
01:31keep making Cult of the Lamb closer and
01:34closer to what we imagined when we
01:36started it so um so we've done that one
01:39and this is the second one and again
01:41we're just adding so much stuff it's so
01:43cool um and it's made quite a splash uh
01:47we've been quite controversial with it
01:49uh with our media our social media uh
01:52Team have been amazing um and um really
01:55got people riled up turns out there's a
01:57lot of horny people on the internet
01:58which um news to me I've been seeing
02:00your post dude and it's like what is he
02:03doing um but I think it's brilliant
02:05because it gets it I'll be honest man
02:07I'm super duper jealous because when
02:10we're going to talk about this in this
02:11conversation you guys have figured out
02:15verality and that is an amazing
02:18achievement for any game developer
02:21because it means you guys can just
02:23you've got eyes now and I don't see it
02:25ever ending um as long as you don't make
02:27a major screw up and you let's say you
02:29become AAA and just start making
02:30terrible games um yeah you've got a
02:33really like strong future you know we
02:36got um we got an awesome um uh social
02:40media and Community um manager um who've
02:43joined team Josie and Lor they're both
02:46just amazing and uh Josie particularly
02:48has a very um like an evil sense of
02:51humor and I think she enjoys um kind of
02:55winding people up but also is really
02:57good at and I think this is key is like
03:00knowing how far you can take it and then
03:03like going okay don't worry it was a
03:05joke because we um we've caused all
03:07sorts of issues this year we um we said
03:10we were going to delete the game uh when
03:12Unity announced its pricing change yeah
03:15we upset a lot of people um and it turns
03:18out um you know it was a joke it was a
03:20joke we're not deleting the game but we
03:22were upset you know and it was like and
03:24maybe we'll talk about this later but
03:25you know a lot of a lot of developers
03:27would be really hurt by the changes they
03:28were proposing so was cool to be part of
03:30that conversation um and it felt good to
03:33be able to kind of you know um speak up
03:36for people um but also kind of in our in
03:39our way which is to kind of be funny
03:40about it and and um right yeah so it's
03:43been really good I mean the key learning
03:45with sins of the flesh is that yeah
03:47again sex cells um news news to everyone
03:50shocking um but that's been the that's
03:53from the key I think what's really core
03:57to what we've learned is definitely
04:00you know we're making the game we're
04:01game designers so we want fun core
04:03systems but really you need to have some
04:06kind of hook that you're tying it all
04:08together on so like at the moment we're
04:09talking about our next you know the what
04:12what update we're going to do next and
04:13we've got all these cool ideas but we're
04:15sort of like right but how do we how do
04:17we tie that together into a coherent
04:19package and that's really crucial and I
04:21think a lot of um indie game developers
04:24don't like that sort of thinking where
04:26it's like well it shouldn't be about the
04:27marketing it should be about the
04:28brilliant idea but it's like yeah it
04:31should be about both and they're both
04:32really important well I asked I pulled
04:35my audience on Twitter I said um would
04:38you rather make half a million dollars
04:41every year for four years making a game
04:43you
04:44hate or would you rather just make a
04:47game you love with barely scratching by
04:50and the majority of game developers said
04:52I just want to scratch by and make
04:53something that I love yeah and I thought
04:55to myself I thought and I'm not saying
04:57there's a right answer here but if you
04:59want to be a full-time game developer
05:01and do what you and I are doing you've
05:04got to be willing to suffer a little bit
05:08through it's not that you sell out you
05:10just have to figure out like how what
05:14what's like my the suffering that I'm
05:15doing lately for our next game is I'm
05:17secretly pulling my audience to figure
05:20out like what's actually a good hook
05:22here for our next game yeah and so it's
05:24it's a painful process of like looking
05:27for the ideas that people really latch
05:28on to
05:30because the ideas that I think I'm going
05:31to latch on to aren't
05:34necessarily the ideas that are going to
05:36sell and make us money because at the
05:38end of the day when you're making decent
05:41money for your game there's this sort of
05:44as long as you don't treat it as long as
05:46you're not Addicted to Money there is a
05:48freedom that comes with that you know
05:50and you can you can make anything you
05:53want um and I I think that that all
05:56starts with a really really great hook
05:58yeah you know what I mean absolutely and
06:00I you know your question I've I've done
06:03both now um I would say um the it's it's
06:08almost like that's not that's almost
06:10like not exactly the that's not the
06:11choice you make unless you're going into
06:13to like make some kind of like very of
06:16the- moment mobile game kind of super
06:19casual thing where you know the the goal
06:21is to make as much money as possible you
06:23know um it's not so much that I would
06:26say you know we definitely didn't sell
06:28out we made something kind of edgy and
06:30that we really wanted to make but it's
06:31more about it's more about like how do
06:33you present your ideas so it's not like
06:37it's not selling out because I I don't
06:38feel that that's what C Lam is I think
06:40it's like it's a very to to me it's a
06:43very cool game that I'm really proud
06:45that we've made but it's more about we
06:47were just kind of we conscious about how
06:50do you present those ideas in a way that
06:52like people can consume immediately I
06:54kind of tell the story a lot about when
06:56we started the game we the core of the
06:58game was
07:00the the loop so it's like you've got
07:02your base and then you go out and you
07:04Dungeon Crawl and you find resources to
07:05come back to build up your base so that
07:07you can go get upgrade your character
07:08and go further and you know that that's
07:10the that was the core but the cult thing
07:12didn't come in till much much later
07:14because we spent about nine months kind
07:16of arguing about what the game should be
07:17about we had all these crazy ideas one
07:20of them was like you know you're a lost
07:22God on the back of a flying whale and we
07:24would go to conventions and talk to
07:26people like yeah we're working on this
07:27game you're this lost God and you and
07:29people's eyes would just like glaze over
07:31and they just be like I don't but then
07:33we so we we knew it wasn't right we just
07:35kept going when we found like you start
07:38a cult it's like three three words four
07:41words four words and um and people would
07:44get it straight away and it's just that
07:45power of communication so it's again
07:48like it's not it's not like choosing to
07:50sell out at all it's it's just like take
07:53your great idea but you know think about
07:56how you're communicating it how you you
07:59know how are you showing people and
08:02getting people interested how you
08:03getting people interested because again
08:04like I've done both and it's a lot more
08:06fun when more people play your game let
08:08me tell let me tell you that straight up
08:10it's it's not fun when You' poured four
08:12years into a game and you the next day
08:14you've got to go right I need to bring
08:16in the next deal because there's no
08:17money um well you you you told me this
08:22um I think it was a year and a half ago
08:24you were helping me sort of do some
08:26ideation with Twisted Tower which is our
08:29current game and you helped me so much
08:32with that and you formulated for me
08:34something that I in a lot of my audience
08:37has heard me say this but I call it the
08:38big butt
08:39principal and the the big butt B okay
08:45not B all right um yeah my mind is not
08:48as much in the gutter as yours you'll
08:51get that'll get right um but it's called
08:54the big butt principle and you were sort
08:55of the impetus of this uh the big butt
08:58principle is
08:59blank but it's it's for idea cre idea
09:02ideation for a game idea in a hook so
09:05blank but blank okay so for hollow night
09:09it's Metroid Vania but with bugs yeah
09:14right right with with with uh with
09:18portal it's firstperson shooter but with
09:20portals um with your game it's Binding
09:24of Isaac but cult s cult management St
09:29right or Rim world you know yeah exactly
09:33I mean that's how that's how we came up
09:34with it that it was like you know you
09:37know so much of it was like looking at
09:39what didn't work with our previous game
09:41and and saying and and responding to
09:44what didn't work and you know there'd be
09:46no Cult of lamb if we hadn't had our our
09:49our other games because we saw you know
09:52that you know people would see our
09:54previous games and think things like oh
09:55it's a kids game and write it off so
09:57we're like oh God we got to go we and we
09:58saw holl night which came out similar
09:59time or like we got to go darker and um
10:02things like single use content and it's
10:04like okay well you know you have 120
10:07levels but once you played it once
10:10that's it and it's gone and and that's
10:12incredibly timec consuming expensive to
10:14make and um and in like you know with
10:16streaming it's like you don't even need
10:18to play it yourself you can watch
10:19someone else play it and then you've
10:20consumed it you don't need to buy it so
10:22like it's just so so you know looking at
10:24what are the things that um what are the
10:27games that aren't single use and and
10:30they were like Colony Sim Farm Sim games
10:32you know starg Valley Rim world and the
10:35other one that was biger at the time was
10:36the Rogue likes and you could play Enter
10:38the gungeon over and over and over again
10:40and you know the content just kept
10:43getting used and used and used and like
10:45Okay so let's let's take yeah like your
10:48idea stue Valley but enter the gungeon
10:51and I think you're absolutely right it's
10:52like seeing what works and giving it a
10:55unique hook and and the other point
10:58about why I think that's such a good
10:59idea is that it's that level of newness
11:04but familiarity so you're saying like um
11:09it's it's this game but this and people
11:12like oh I get that I know portal or like
11:14sorry I know firstperson Shooters and I
11:17love puzzles okay it's a first person
11:18shooter puzzles I get it and that is
11:22like but when you're like you know oh
11:24it's a it's a game where we do this and
11:26this and that and I'm sorry I can't
11:27think of a good example off the top of
11:28my head
11:29well I think the idea the original idea
11:32you had is a great example of that where
11:33you're a God on the back of a whale it's
11:35like it's hard to explain yeah you know
11:38it's really hard to explain and I I you
11:41helped me so much because I I that that
11:43call we had a year and a half ago
11:45because it I realized that the shorter
11:48the description of your game the more
11:50likely it is that it's going to be a
11:52good idea um that's a good way to look
11:54at it yeah because if it's kind of like
11:57it's like sales it's like a Salesman
11:59needs to be able to get his point across
12:01he needs to knock on someone's door and
12:03be able to sell someone something in 15
12:05seconds or they're out you know and the
12:08same is true with games and and and it
12:10you know people might be hearing this
12:12and be thinking like the light bulbs
12:14going off and they're like oh it's that
12:15easy no it's not easy at all like to be
12:19able to make a threw description of your
12:22game that is
12:23actually uh creates an itch in somebody
12:26is so difficult
12:29and you you did it uh a previous guest
12:32Gavin who created choo choo Charles
12:34spider train he actually beat you in
12:36terms of the shortness spider train like
12:39it's like that's all you need y that's
12:42all you need um and I I just think it's
12:46such a it's such a sad it's a sad piece
12:49of advice to say f like to obsessively
12:53focus on a hook it's sad because I think
12:57most game developers they don't know how
12:58how to to obsessively focus on a hook
13:01because they want so badly to see their
13:03product come to life and so they start
13:05too early and so I wanted to ask you um
13:08you mentioned this I think it was in our
13:10previous conversation you said I don't
13:12think I'm ever going to make a game
13:13where I don't obsess about the hook
13:15first ever again yeah um yeah do you
13:18remember saying that or do you believe
13:20that still um yeah I think well you know
13:23Ju Just to go back to the Choo Cho thing
13:25I think like SPID trained but spider you
13:27know so it what your definitely holds
13:30true I think Thomas the Train Thomas the
13:32Tank Engine but he's a spider train but
13:34spider um and I think simple is hard
13:38simple is really hard because it's easy
13:41to get complicated it's like well that's
13:43not quite working okay throw on another
13:45system and then let's over engineer this
13:47until it gets to the you know but
13:50keeping something pure and and and
13:52simple is very hard and yeah I think I
13:55think definitely um I would I would not
13:59like i' probably differentiate it in
14:01like if I had the time and an idea where
14:05I didn't have a hook I might Tinker with
14:07it and and kind of come up with
14:09something but I would never push it
14:11forward as like a proper massive monster
14:14project I would never take it to the
14:16other guys
14:18without either accepting that they'll
14:20make me turn it into like a clever hook
14:24or I've got a clever hook kind of thing
14:26because I just think that that was the I
14:29think there was like two really powerful
14:31things with Cult of lamb and which which
14:33led to a success aside from just timing
14:36and and amazing um PR team and and just
14:39the whole team being amazing you
14:41published with devolver which devolver
14:43did an incredible job with in marketing
14:45efforts I assume yeah it's like their
14:47bread and butter um oh that that's so
14:50great um so well can I ask you you know
14:53do you feel like your previous projects
14:55had a
14:56hook but not not to the the same extent
15:00no definitely not and it was never
15:01something that we thought about I mean
15:03so our two commercial games were the
15:06adventure powers and never give up never
15:08give up was a sort of more of a sort of
15:10work for higher project where we we
15:12collaborated with a publisher the
15:15adventure P was kind of our baby and it
15:17was kind of the game that we kind of
15:19imagined you know the the IND the game
15:20Dream were like this is the game we're
15:22throwing our hearts and souls into it
15:24for like three four years this is the
15:25one that's going to going to take off
15:27and of course didn't but you know uh we
15:30needed that to get to Cult of the Lamb
15:32you know so um it its Hook was really
15:35like jimmied in at the end and it was
15:37sort of like you know it was 2016 so the
15:40hook was really like L random you know
15:42it's like h l random back then that was
15:44kind of still interesting now not so
15:47much now but it was kind of like we
15:48would tell people this we would we
15:51learned like by going to Convention
15:53after convention after convention
15:55talking to thousands of people trying to
15:57pitch it looking at their faces when we
15:59talked about it and seeing when they
16:00would smile and so you know it's like
16:03it's a you're a young boy with a magical
16:06giraffe in your backpack and you're on a
16:07quest to rescue your dad before he's
16:10turned into a hot dog and you would kind
16:11of see the sort of like smirk with the
16:13giraffe and then the hot dog thing you'd
16:16sort of see the like oh smile kind of
16:17thing so yeah there was definitely that
16:20maybe that's where we learned it I I
16:22would probably wouldn't take so much of
16:23the credit Julian who's um so Julian
16:26myself and Jim founded massive moner and
16:29and he Julian was definitely the one
16:30who's like marketing first is kind of
16:33drilled it into us and I was like I sort
16:35of came to them and I was like hey look
16:36at my cool loop you know the the the
16:39base building in the D and he's like
16:41that's great but it sucks because what's
16:43your Loop like what's your what's your
16:45what's your what's your hook sorry so I
16:47had the loop he he insisted on the hook
16:49um and then so the adventure Pal's hook
16:51wasn't it wasn't a hook it was it was
16:55silly but it wasn't a hook silly as a
16:57hook which isn't great I think um there
17:00was no like you know you had the giraffe
17:01in the backpack who would have cool
17:03abilities and things but it was you know
17:05it was just um not strong enough a
17:08player fantasy um and then you've got
17:11the other the other aspect of it um
17:14where you promise the player so in the
17:17cult of the Lamb okay you're you're
17:19you're starting a cult and the player
17:21goes okay that means I can sacrifice
17:24people I can have rituals I can you know
17:27and for a long time we knew we had to
17:29have those things in because that's what
17:30the expectation is but you know there
17:33aren't a lot of games that do that so we
17:35didn't really have anything we kind of
17:37you know like if you're going to make a
17:38Metroid Vania you know what you're
17:40making right and then it's up to you to
17:41make a really really good one um but you
17:44know the format right you you find your
17:46double jump here and then that allows
17:48you to go open up that area and you know
17:50you know what the structure is but for
17:52the majority of cult of the land we
17:54didn't know what it was we didn't know
17:55how it work now we do which is which is
17:57great but at the time we didn't and we
17:59were figuring it out so we knew we had
18:02these promises to the players that we
18:04had to fulfill which was right how do we
18:06make a player want to sacrifice these
18:08followers and you know such a core of
18:10the game is making people care about
18:13their followers um that was absolutely
18:16you know it was almost like when the
18:17game got um uh marketed as a rogue like
18:21I was almost surprised when that first
18:23happened because I'm like it's it's not
18:25about the Rog like it's about the and
18:29it's about the followers it's about the
18:31game is about the followers that's what
18:32it's about and it's about making you do
18:35increasingly evil things Without You
18:37realizing it until you go you know oh my
18:39God I'm a monster because you you've got
18:40the story of the game but you've got the
18:43meta story which is the player becoming
18:46you know becoming evil essentially um
18:49and so yeah and so that that's kind of
18:53you you have your hook which helps you
18:55but it also holds you to account where
18:57you have to provide you know it's it's
19:00crazy Jay that you bring that up because
19:02I was just sort of mentoring somebody
19:04today about YouTube uh because he's
19:06interested in starting a YouTube
19:08channel and you know I make games but I
19:11also make YouTube content about games
19:14and I said do you know what the two most
19:17important metrics in a YouTube video are
19:20and he didn't know so I said it's
19:21click-through rate and retention so
19:23clickthrough rate being your thumbnail
19:26AKA a really good hook a really good
19:28title really good hook right yeah then
19:32the algorithm doesn't stop there the
19:34algorithm goes okay they clicked but are
19:37they going to watch right how how long
19:39are they going to watch and that's
19:41retention yeah and that's that is
19:43exactly what you're talking about yeah
19:45you can have a great hook but if you
19:47don't fulfill the promises of the hook
19:49you're going to get mostly negative
19:50reviews or or even mixed you know
19:54sometimes I would prefer to get mostly
19:55negative over mixed um just because at
19:57least there's some some polarization
19:59going on there but the the point is is
20:02that I I wouldn't even know where to
20:04begin with a a creating a cult
20:07management Sim um or you know it's it's
20:11so so so difficult to fulfill that
20:15promise of that hook yeah um my question
20:19to you is is that I mean I kind of want
20:21to move this into the the creation of
20:23the game the the technical aspects um
20:27let but let's start with that fulfilling
20:30the promise of the hook was this a
20:32difficult uh yeah let's talk about the
20:35the design of it so like the game design
20:37document and and how you crafted this
20:39because I think that was your primary
20:41job right like the design of the
20:43thing yeah yeah yeah like mechanics and
20:46how it worked together and then let's
20:47also talk about the technical side of
20:49the tools and and how you created this
20:50thing so but let's start with the your
20:52your part of the job here okay yeah I
20:55mean absolutely it it was very hard it
20:58it was very very hard and we didn't know
21:00for the longest time and we knew we had
21:03to do it it got to the point where we
21:05wrote a list of like we went on these
21:06websites like what makes a cult kind of
21:08thing and we came up with a list and we
21:10went through it like do we have this do
21:12we have indoctrination do we have like
21:15um you know uh belief systems do we have
21:17um rituals do we have you know um all of
21:21these things that we were like had to
21:23like tick off and we had to make it
21:25meaningful in the loop of the game which
21:28was really hard so um I think the
21:30sacrifice is quite a good example where
21:34we put it in quite early because we knew
21:36we needed it right um and that's kind of
21:39why you have like it's the sacrific like
21:41these tent tentacles come out of nowhere
21:43because it was still early enough in the
21:44game to think oh yeah we might have like
21:46you know culu tentacles all over the
21:48place and we we didn't really end up
21:49having that and really it would make
21:51more sense if like the one who Waits
21:53came up and grabbed you know it but it
21:55that's just to kind of illustrate how
21:57early we put that in before we had any
22:00meaning to do it um and you would lose a
22:02follower which was you know we wanted
22:04you to invest in the followers we we
22:06looked at the followers as crops and Stu
22:08so you we wanted you to maintain them
22:11you know that's why every day you can go
22:12up and um and interact with them and you
22:16know improve them and stuff you and then
22:18you get something back out of them so
22:20you know crops and St Stu was how we
22:22looked at at the followers but so we we
22:24didn't have anything and for a while it
22:25would give you gold but there comes a
22:27point in the game where you know you've
22:28got enough economy that you don't need
22:30gold and so the loss of a follower isn't
22:32isn't worth it and it wasn't until like
22:34really the last minute that we thought
22:37actually what if it means you
22:40automatically level up your character
22:42and it and it was such like a like oh my
22:44God that's fantastic because I think
22:46jimp came up with that actually and it
22:49just meant that suddenly You Not only
22:51was it like a meaningful thing to do but
22:53you were directly doing it for your own
22:56personal benefit you were you know you
22:58were being very evil you very um uh self
23:04uh what's the word you you you're doing
23:06it for your own self-interest right it's
23:08you become extremely self-interested
23:09you're willing to you know hurt and kill
23:12your followers so that you can do better
23:15and it just it was fantastic when that
23:17when that went in um so did you plan all
23:19this out in a gdd oh God no and the
23:22reason being tell me about that cuz I
23:24you know a lot of game developers right
23:26now are probably listening thinking
23:28uh you know how how what's his design
23:31process here because the professional
23:33quote unquote way to do things yeah is
23:35to write all this out before you even
23:36start your game um what was your process
23:40like I think um well I it would sum up
23:43in one word um iteration it was just
23:46brutal iteration and being brutal with
23:48each other and so making stuff you're
23:50making the game and then you spend all
23:52this time and money making something and
23:54then you scrap it and then do something
23:55else exactly we we got to the point
23:58where we were like a AB testing systems
24:01so we would just have a Boolean and we
24:03just say like you know is are you you
24:05know another good example is the sermons
24:08um hooking them up to leveling up your
24:11character again came very late which is
24:14crazy right because um the whole Loop of
24:16the game is the followers make you
24:18better in the dungeon and the dungeon
24:19makes you better for the followers
24:21because you've got resources kind of
24:22thing and we just didn't see that till
24:24till right at the end so we had like for
24:26example we we just have Boolean that you
24:29know uh is it like is the sermon mode
24:32play a level up true or false or is it
24:35you know or you getting gold or you know
24:37something whatever yeah and we would
24:39just get so into that process where we
24:41just be like right a like rather than we
24:44argued so much that we would just be
24:46like rather than arguing let's try both
24:49that's that's where we got to where it
24:51was just like okay you got that idea you
24:52got I I don't have the time or energy to
24:55argue put them both in and let let's try
24:58them and we got to we started saying let
25:00the game tell us what it wants to be and
25:03that man yeah yeah so so I'm sorry to
25:06interrupt you like the I'm just
25:08fascinated because are you opposed to a
25:11gdd like what are your thoughts on a gdd
25:13because like I feel so guilty when I do
25:17what you're saying and I do it all the
25:19time which is it's it's it's quote
25:21unquote wasteful um you know like the
25:24the the fiscally respons responsible
25:28person in me who is greedy with time I
25:32want I I I feel guilty because I'm like
25:34I should have been able to plan this
25:36better I should have been able to plan
25:38this game design better and then I sort
25:40of slap myself on the wrist and and
25:42think I wasted my team's time and what
25:45you're saying is no this is a necessary
25:47process of any great game to to build it
25:50out as opposed to write it out um yeah I
25:54would
25:56say because we were doing
25:59something um that we were doing a lot of
26:02things that we hadn't come across before
26:05so again going to that like Metroid
26:07Vania it's like yeah write it out fine
26:09that's I don't I'm not opposed to gdds
26:12but we were moving so fast that we
26:14didn't have time to write and maintain a
26:16gdd because it just wasn't right so we
26:19had to write stuff for Publishers to get
26:21funding and things but from that point
26:24on we would like I I do I do a lot of
26:26slideshows or I use a tool called Miro
26:29uh where I'll like plan it all out and
26:31stuff and just but then like that's what
26:33we're doing now this week that's what
26:35we're doing and then that's like
26:37scrapped and then next week it's like
26:38right this we're going to move this
26:40around and this is going to go here um
26:43so no I'm not against gdds um at all but
26:46they've just never they didn't work in
26:48this case because we just
26:50couldn't um we just didn't have a time
26:53or Manpower or energy or needs because
26:57we were we were such a small team as
26:59well and so kind of moving so quickly
27:01that you know ideas would be scrapped
27:04before people had even heard of them you
27:05know and well it reminds me of um it
27:08reminds me of like um like dietitians or
27:12like um weight training or you know
27:15everybody has the right way to do
27:17something and for me like you know I've
27:20I've met people and even for me
27:23personally I can do a specific diet
27:26because it's told I'm told this diet's
27:28going to help you right um because for
27:31me like I have stomach pain and I don't
27:33really know why so I've been trying
27:35different diets and I I've been finding
27:38out that all of these solutions that you
27:41Google they're right for specific people
27:44but sometimes you have to figure out
27:46what works for you and for your body and
27:50I think the same is true I think the
27:52same is true with a game some teams
27:55function better I think with with that
27:58collaborative sort of destructive I I
28:01don't know what the a better way to put
28:02it it's almost like just this messy
28:04destructive process of building and
28:06smashing and building and smashing yeah
28:09um and I'm that way like I I I talked
28:11about it in one of my videos um like
28:13five months ago about how I felt so bad
28:16because I kept changing things on my
28:19team I have a 3D artist and then a
28:21developer and I'm just constantly
28:23changing stuff and I feel guilty because
28:25I'm like you guys put so much work into
28:27this but we're going to scrap it we're
28:28going to scrap this entire level U we're
28:31going to scrap this entire mechanic it's
28:33gone we're just going to delete the code
28:35and they put they would put in weeks of
28:37work yeah and it's encouraging to hear
28:40you say this because in my in my core
28:43I'm slowly learning that every time I
28:46create a
28:48gdd it becomes
28:50irrelevant because we're just we just
28:52move on without it you know we just
28:54leave the Train's left a station we it's
28:57just
28:57we say goodbye to the gdd and we forget
28:59about it becomes this sort of document
29:01in a dust bin um and so I'm encouraged
29:05to hear you say this yeah because I
29:08think for my next game I just want to
29:09sort of just feel it out you know as
29:11opposed to try and type it all out
29:14definitely and you need that and you
29:15need to be responsive to what how the
29:17game is feeling and and coming together
29:19I think the the maybe the caveat that I
29:23would I think and I think you're doing
29:25this as well and this is probably why
29:26your team is okay with you scrapping it
29:29is is you all know where you're going or
29:31what maybe you know where you want to
29:33end up so we had very very clear like
29:36three design pillars so the design
29:39pillars like it's quite a common thing
29:40where it's
29:42like um you know it's like the the
29:45combat the cult and the experience of
29:47something other you you pick three like
29:49defining principles that become your
29:51pillars of the game um and the power of
29:54that is like every decision you then
29:56make going forward
29:57has to must reinforce one of those one
30:01or more of those pillars and if it
30:02doesn't even if it's a cool feature you
30:04You' got to get rid of it because it it
30:06muddies the vision and the more we
30:09simplified again the more we simplified
30:11the um the game the better it got um the
30:14more focused it became the more we could
30:16like you know hone The Experience so I I
30:18would say yeah absolutely that that has
30:21to be the process and we have something
30:23at massive monster that drives uh
30:25producer crazy and it's called team
30:27sneaky boys and what it is is um it's
30:31similar to that thing about like you
30:32know there's no point arguing it let's
30:34just try them both and everyone will
30:36clearly see which one is better be then
30:38then there's no argument because like
30:39well obviously this is better it's a
30:41similar thing where like for example the
30:43the the the way we have weddings in the
30:46game so one of the rituals is you can
30:47marry a follower you can marry as many
30:49followers as you want it's your cult you
30:50know and rather than me try to convince
30:54the guys that this was a good idea I
30:57just put it in and I didn't even tell
30:58them about it so they came across it
31:00when they were playing the game and love
31:02that my feeling was like look if we talk
31:04about it it's
31:06like what's the morality here like is
31:08this okay what's this mean what what
31:10about all the you know I don't and
31:12someone's going to go I don't think it's
31:13a good idea I'm not you know but if it's
31:15like well it's done it's in like what do
31:19you do you want to take it out because
31:20we need like six rituals and that's one
31:23so great we can now do F you know it's
31:25like it's like a fade compete it's done
31:27so like it's more effort to get rid of
31:29it you know and that's um but that's
31:31like brilliant that's so we caught team
31:33sneaky boys and it's very uh stress
31:36inducing for everyone who isn't on team
31:39sneaky Boys on team sneaky boys is
31:40really fun because we're just like the
31:42game needs this and everyone knows it's
31:45right you know everyone knows the game
31:46does need this but there isn't time for
31:48it so it's like well we can do this in
31:50an afternoon if no one is watching us
31:53let's just get it you know and so it's
31:55it's a Force for good but it does Drive
31:57the The Producers uh well one producer
31:59that we have um insane and Julian was
32:01producing during the development of the
32:03game and he but now he no longer
32:05produced because we have a very talented
32:07producer called Zia and but now Julian
32:09has joined team sneaky boys so I you
32:11know we're slowly winning everyone over
32:13but the the idea is like you're not
32:15you're not pushing out deadlines you're
32:16just like quickly getting something in
32:19that wasn't scoped but everyone knows
32:21that it makes the game better for
32:23example sins of the flesh we um we have
32:26a breeding mechanic in it with the
32:28followers so you you take them to the
32:30mating tent and you invite them to breed
32:32and it's consentual they decide if they
32:33like each other or not based on a
32:35relationship status um and if they do
32:38then uh they come out holding an egg um
32:41and that's all I'll say about what
32:43happens in there it's just for racings
32:45and stuff I love that that's so fun and
32:47I'm just thinking mechanically what what
32:49you can do with that yeah it's really
32:51cool well we had um the egg would just
32:53hatch and You' have like a fully grown
32:55follower but we realized you know right
32:57before the deadline it's weird we need
32:59there should be a sort of baby face
33:01there should be you know children or
33:03babies or whatever and so that was a
33:06that was a job for team sneaky boys
33:07there was no time for it it wasn't
33:08scoped in but we knew we needed it and
33:11so we got it in and there are some
33:13interactions you can have with them uh
33:15you've got to sort of um you've got to
33:17sort of check in with them if you don't
33:19and they're a bit neglected when they
33:20grow up they'll leave the cult um so
33:22you've got to make sure you're checking
33:24in with them and stuff um you know
33:25nothing bad can happen to them they're
33:26not part of rituals it's all you know
33:28but um that we knew that had to had to
33:32go in um and so we just kind of snuck it
33:34in and again that's like you can't gdd
33:37that because um you you don't know that
33:40you need it until you're playing the
33:41game yeah you know this came playing the
33:43game and going oh it's weird that we
33:44don't have this so I don't I don't see
33:47how in a very you know system complex
33:49game you can have a gdd that covers
33:52every
33:52eventuality yeah and you know this this
33:55really brings me to something I want to
33:57talk about which is the the benefits the
34:00benefits of working with a team versus
34:02working
34:03solo um I think the majority of the
34:06listeners right now are aspiring solo
34:11developers um and I was wondering if you
34:13could give me a
34:16few a few reasons why you love the
34:19opposite of solo okay um and I'm get I'm
34:22getting there I used to be a solo
34:24developer uh for pinstripe then with
34:27Never song I brought a developer on and
34:28then now I've got a much bigger team and
34:31it's so oh clearly it's more expensive
34:35but is it I mean it can presses time
34:37down so I mean yeah there's a whole
34:39conversation about there that is it
34:41actually more expensive but would you
34:44mind giving me some like some positives
34:47and maybe trying if you were to convince
34:49somebody if they had some money to spend
34:52why they should work with the
34:54team well first of all to all you you
34:57know developers watching good luck um
34:58it's it's tough out there but keep keep
35:00going and um you can do it um and it's
35:03an amazing industry to be a part of um
35:06um
35:08so so being solo so I started as a solo
35:12developer making like small little mini
35:14flash games and I would sort of collab
35:18with other people so I kind of did both
35:20and I found that um working with someone
35:24else and this is not like hiring a team
35:25necessarily I'm talking about like
35:26finding Partners which is very different
35:30um you know so you've got like people
35:33that share the vision with you um versus
35:38like you know hiring hiring a starting a
35:40company and having you know and they
35:42have a revenue stake yeah exactly so
35:44people who you know this is like
35:46starting a band really you know you you
35:48find people who do different things to
35:50you but also you know
35:54are insanely talented so what I did when
35:57I was making Flash games with almost
35:59every game for the first sort of year or
36:01so I would partner with someone
36:02different and then out of all the people
36:05that I partnered with um Julian and jimp
36:08were the ones that stood out as like
36:11amazing and so that's why when we
36:13started massive moner those were the two
36:14guys that I thought like I wanted to
36:17work with and you know that we were
36:19already you know we'd already started
36:21like the adventure poers and jimp and I
36:23were kind of already um you know talking
36:26about already like collaborating a lot
36:28like quite frequently by that point but
36:31finding people who I kind of always
36:33thought like you you wake up and they've
36:36done this incredible artwork that just
36:37inspires you to to be better at what you
36:40do um is just amazing and it's like it's
36:43not like you know one plus one it's like
36:46you know or one time one is still one
36:49but like it's like a multi it's a
36:51multiplier right having people who are
36:53like better than you at stuff and coming
36:55up with you what you you never want to
36:58be the smartest person in the room you
37:00because why are you in that room you
37:01want to be surrounded people who by
37:03people who are better than you and you
37:04think wow why am I in this room how did
37:07I get how did I manage to like wangle my
37:09way into this room yeah that's and are
37:11you considered the team lead Jay I think
37:14all three of us would answer yes to like
37:17okay ourselves being the team lead uh we
37:21we we found um an amazing kind of like
37:24balance with the three of us where we
37:25all kind of have our own strength and
37:26our own responsibilities and and we're
37:30kind of remarkably always on the same
37:32page with stuff and if we're not again
37:34it's that thing of just like well if
37:36there's an argument let's just try both
37:37and see what works kind of thing and I
37:39think that was sort of forged in the
37:40fires of um a very very stressful
37:43development during a pandemic um so the
37:46three of us are thankfully in a very
37:47good position in terms of the
37:49partnership um but yeah I think all
37:51three of us would would say that we are
37:53the leader so well what what about so
37:56you've got you've got you know skill
37:58skill you've got that in the bag and and
38:01you're said like you said it sort of
38:02exponentially increases the the the
38:04quality of the game because everybody's
38:06working off each other's energy yeah
38:08what about what about drama and
38:11arguments um like you said it's like a
38:14band right well every band breaks up
38:17yeah because of drama right and and um
38:20so so I'm curious can you can you give
38:23give me some thoughts on any drama with
38:25the team and and yeah you guys manag
38:27that because you mentioned arguments
38:29yeah so what's really good about the
38:30three of us is we all live on different
38:32continents and so we don't interact with
38:35each other very often um which is good
38:38because I think when we're all together
38:39it's just this insane energy insane
38:41party that just like wrecks us um so for
38:44we're all in the same room I don't know
38:46how well that would that would work
38:47you'd have too much fun have too much
38:49fun and you know being able to just have
38:53your own space I think we all kind of
38:54like having our own space working on
38:56what we we do and then try to impress
38:58each other certainly a lot of C of L was
39:01me feeling like the game Loop wasn't
39:04there but the artwork was
39:06incredible and I kind of needed to hold
39:09up my my end of it um and you know
39:12really feeling that pressure of like not
39:14wanting to let the others down and I
39:16know having spoken to um jimp that he
39:18felt the same with the artwork he felt
39:20that you know so much of it was him
39:22trying to impress us with with the art
39:24and feeling that we were maybe being a
39:26bit harsh on him coming back and being
39:28like you got to make it less cute you
39:30got to make it you know and there's a
39:31lot of that so I mean that's you know
39:34such such a big part of it and I think
39:36so you guys critique each other oh yeah
39:38yeah yeah but you know less now because
39:41we're our role now is changing more into
39:44directors of the company but certainly
39:46during development it was like yeah
39:49brutal like brutally honest with each
39:51other um no holding back because again
39:55we all knew that it was like for the
39:57best of the all three of us wanted the
39:59same thing right we all it's not about
40:01like you got to leave your ego at the
40:03door it's not about how clever your idea
40:05is it's like does this make the game
40:06better going back to those three pillars
40:08and the three of us knew we all like had
40:11this amazing opportunity with devolver
40:13we had this game Loop that you know was
40:15familiar enough to be recognizable and
40:19understandable but new enough to be
40:20interesting you know we kind of knew we
40:23really really had to make this work in
40:24our previous games of flop so it was
40:26like we knew this had to be it all three
40:28of us were on the same page and all
40:29three of us would you know check in
40:31every day and go well this is not good
40:33this is a problem this and you know it
40:36got really depressing like really in the
40:38middle of it it was brutal um you know
40:42as I mean it's video games at the end of
40:44the day I have to get some perspective
40:46but you know when it's your whole it's
40:48your whole world you know it was hard
40:50because you throw your heart and soul
40:51into something you work so hard and then
40:54the next day it's like right well there
40:56there was no there was never any like a
40:58well done you fix that it was like right
40:59next problem next problem next problem
41:02and um that again you all have to be
41:05fully committed to the mission um to
41:09weather that storm um did you ever have
41:12situations where in the past where
41:15you've worked with a team where where
41:18members weren't committed to the mission
41:19and you didn't really know how to handle
41:23it yeah um we so one point in massive
41:27monster we had a lot more people as part
41:29of it and we were much more of a sort of
41:31collective where there were much more
41:33games going on and different teams
41:35working on different games at different
41:37stages and it the idea of the company
41:40was very different to what it is now um
41:42and that was really hard because you
41:44know when you are working with people
41:47and things aren't going the right way
41:49and you've all got different Visions um
41:51you know no matter how much you like
41:52everyone that's really not a good
41:55situation to be in so I I would say
41:58maybe go go slow when you're finding
42:01your team if you rush into things and
42:02you're committed to to situations and
42:05people you know no matter how amazing
42:06they are and talented they are and
42:08they've all like doing amazing things
42:10and gone on to make amazing games um um
42:13it's it's like I again sorry going back
42:16to my story of The Flash stuff it took
42:18like a year for me to like just work
42:20with people see what works see what
42:21didn't um and then you know landing on
42:23these these two guys that um
42:26it's it's not easy to find amazing
42:29people um or no let me say that again
42:33it's even when you find amazing people
42:36you might not have the right project or
42:38you might not be quite aligned so I
42:39think been very lucky with jimp and
42:41Julian in that we the three of us wanted
42:44to make this thing and we had a very
42:46clear Vision once we finally settled on
42:48it so well speaking sorry speaking of
42:53vision um one of the major concerns I
42:55think
42:56with solo developers this used to be a
42:58major concern of mine before I decide
43:00like when I was considering whether to
43:01build a team my concern was I'm not
43:04going to get a cohesive Vision here um I
43:07can do it better myself you know I'll
43:09write the music and I'll do the art and
43:10blah blah blah and I didn't I
43:14didn't believe that I could act as a
43:17director and and I was kind of scared of
43:19acting as a director um of a video game
43:22and I that's what I do now is I mainly
43:23just direct I spend most of my time just
43:26creating Concepts and and putting
43:29together task lists on cck clickup where
43:32certain people are doing certain things
43:33I I spend a lot of time in the
43:35documentation um I Source music um and
43:40sort of basically outline the vision of
43:42the game to each individual contractor
43:44that's working on the
43:46game and I found it to be an incredibly
43:49cohesive game um and so my question to
43:52you is is that have you ever felt or
43:56what are some things that you do to
43:58ensure that the vision is cohesive do
44:00you guys just click or do you really
44:02have to work like really overc
44:04communicate with each other about the
44:06vision of the game because it sounds
44:07like there's nobody at the top right no
44:09director so how do you how do you ensure
44:12that cohesion exists well we're very
44:15much like I mean there is there we're
44:17sort of like you know the three-headed
44:19dog you know this Cerberus or whatever
44:21um you know it's it's we know where we
44:25want to go with the company I think we
44:26know what we want to do with the game
44:29now that the game it's it's I think
44:31there are like two answers if you'd ask
44:33me this during the development of the
44:35game versus now like a year and a half
44:36afterwards you know it's a very
44:39different company it's a very different
44:41state of the project where the game
44:43exists and everyone knows what it is and
44:46everyone understands the vision right so
44:49we've got like people got an amazing uh
44:52writer JoJo who like takes what we've
44:56done and you know elevates it and makes
44:58it more you know and we have amazing
45:00programmers Harrison Anthony who like
45:02take you know are able to kind of go and
45:06run with the things we might say oh we
45:08need some more traits for the followers
45:09and the next day Harrison's kind of like
45:12oh look I've done these five traits and
45:14they're like wow that's wow amazing so
45:17you know it's it's it's it's trusting
45:19people finding the vision again like we
45:22everyone knows what the game is on the
45:23team so we all know which direction
45:26going and then it's a case of like say
45:28like from my role would be like right
45:31for this update the theme is about
45:32getting the dungeon better so like say
45:34relics of the old Faith that's what the
45:36idea was because that was the criticism
45:38we had was you know the the dungeon side
45:40of the game's not as deep as Hades kind
45:42of thing and you're like well obviously
45:43it's not because we've got two sides of
45:44the game and they've just done one game
45:45so how you know but that aside you know
45:48I'm not bitter about it um that was the
45:50kind of focus and it was and then we
45:52could sort of delegate and kind of from
45:55that stru overriding structure it's like
45:57well how can we hit that okay let's
45:59introduce this Relic system and then
46:01like as you get more and more granular
46:03you can hand over more and more stuff
46:04and and then people come to you with
46:06great ideas again again mentioning
46:08Harrison he came up with the photo mode
46:09by himself he just presented it to us
46:11and I think we're really part of the
46:13sneaky boys oh yeah oh yeah yeah yeah
46:16yeah yeah yeah definitely definitely
46:18he's like if he's not he's not allowed
46:20to do that right right actually yeah you
46:22sneaky boyed me with the phot thought
46:24about that no G have to have words with
46:26them watch out Harrison yeah um so I
46:29don't know I I don't know if I'm
46:30answering your question but it's a case
46:32of like yeah being clear on the vision
46:34and then yeah you know for for example
46:37for this sins of the flesh we started
46:39out in a very different direction uh we
46:42thought it'd be fun to have like um like
46:45seasons and we thought like hey it'd be
46:47cool if you have a winter and you have a
46:48summer and blah blah blah you know um
46:51and it was just turning into and that
46:53everyone was on board with the vision
46:55and and then then we had to like we
46:57realized it was becoming too big and we
46:58had to kind of have a have a call with
47:00everyone explain that despite the fact
47:02that You' just spent months working on
47:04all this stuff we're going to completely
47:05pivot and we're going to make it about
47:08this instead and actually everyone was
47:10amazing everyone was like okay great
47:12that sounds I'm excited about this new
47:14idea and I and hopefully that's because
47:17everyone knew why we were doing it
47:19everyone knew that like we we all want
47:21what's best for the game which is what's
47:23best for the company which is what's
47:24best for everyone on the team because
47:26you know the game does well the company
47:27does well everyone does well and you
47:29know sharing the success kind of thing
47:31so um yeah hopefully that's that's what
47:34we're going for well you know I that's
47:37my my biggest fear before I started a
47:39team and I think a lot of listeners who
47:41are are they're probably afraid right
47:43now to consider building a team I think
47:46what they're afraid of is sort
47:49of steering the ship into the ground or
47:54constantly making mistakes as a a
47:56leader um and that I think that causes a
48:00lot of people to just say I'll just do
48:02it myself so I can avoid the social pain
48:05of you know because you become really
48:07good friends I'm super close with my
48:09team now like I the other day I was
48:13thinking about like sometimes I keep
48:15tabs especially when you're 30 years old
48:17it's good to it's good to be think in
48:18your 30s it's good to be like okay do I
48:21have friends you know cuz you can get so
48:23caught up in work and you can get so
48:25caught up with your kids I know you have
48:27two kids I've got three the third one on
48:29the way and so you get so caught up in
48:31family and so caught up in work that you
48:33go okay do I now how are my friends do I
48:36have friends and I listed out all my
48:40friends so I do have friends uh just so
48:41everyone knows congratulations at the
48:45yeah congratulations it's it's not easy
48:47but at the top of my list the people
48:50that I immediately thought of were was
48:52my
48:53team um and so you don't want to let let
48:55your friends down you know uh and so
48:58whenever you whenever you spend like you
49:00said like a Seasons mechanic um for us
49:04it was like um an entire chapter of our
49:07game that looked like uh sort of
49:09designed like maybe the Teletubbies
49:11would design this entire hotel and my my
49:153D artist Felipe spent I think it was a
49:18month on that and I just one day decided
49:22you know what I don't want to I don't
49:24like it you know I wantan to I want to
49:26sort of scrap that and do something else
49:28and I just felt so guilty you know it
49:31sort of racked my brain for weeks just
49:33feeling
49:34guilty um and so I just I guess I'm
49:38trying to figure out because you've been
49:40doing this longer than me with a team
49:42I'm just trying to figure out should I
49:43feel guilty about that you know like at
49:46what point is it at what at what point
49:49is it abusive to your team and their
49:52time when you're constantly making
49:54changes
49:56you know yeah I think there's definitely
49:58a balance there I think what probably I
50:01mean I don't know was was was Philip
50:03Philipe pretty pissed off at you or did
50:05he take stride no he he's dude he's
50:08that's the problem is he's so kind about
50:11everything that I can never fully
50:13know um I don't think he would I don't
50:16think he would ever be mad um and so you
50:20want to make sure that that's that's
50:22that's the kind of team member you want
50:24but it also means that you never really
50:26know as a leader if you're doing a good
50:27job okay because my team is so cordial
50:31and kind to each other okay and I'm
50:33thinking man you know am I am I being am
50:37I taking advantage of people's time
50:38because I'm so flippant with ideas well
50:42Filipe if you're listening you gota you
50:43got to start roughing up you gota you
50:45got to hold time to account for this
50:46stuff because this is great no no I mean
50:49I I assume he's not mad because he knows
50:51you've got a vision and he trusts a
50:54vision um there's this amazing movie
50:56called touching the void and this guy
50:58basically is mountain climbing gets cut
51:00loose from because he's like sliding off
51:03so they the people he's climbing with
51:05have to cut him loose and and he falls
51:07into this um into this cave or whatever
51:10and he wakes up and it's just this
51:11nightmare situation and he says I just
51:14had to choose left or right and it
51:16didn't matter whether I was right or
51:18wrong I was making a decision and that's
51:20what you have to keep doing making
51:22decisions because really you know it's
51:25it's probably not you know the
51:27individual decision is probably not
51:28going to be life shatteringly changing
51:30you just got to keep moving and you have
51:32to give guidance and you have to feel
51:35everyone has to feel like well someone's
51:37steering this ship right it's it's you
51:39know I'm I'm doing my bit but someone's
51:41steering the ship and they're making
51:43those decisions because you know the the
51:45island is that way so we're we're moving
51:48that you know we're making this decision
51:50to cut that loose and turn that way a
51:51little bit um and I think it's just
51:54having that overarch
51:55ing you know and you know the
51:58overarching direction overarching vision
52:01and then everything comes down from
52:03there you know it's like you you yeah
52:05got a big big painting that you're
52:06making big watercolor you start with big
52:08clotches of color and then you fill in
52:10the details right so as long as you've
52:12got your you know you know the sky is
52:14going to go there and the mountains are
52:16going to go there um you know the actual
52:18details don't matter so much and they
52:20can be filled in later as long as you've
52:22got that overall Vision that's that's
52:25kind of what I what I what I think um
52:28and I think that's what people want and
52:30they're looking for they want to enjoy
52:32their job and they want to know that
52:33they're contributing to something that's
52:35moving in the right direction right well
52:38let's let's let's sort of you know
52:42finalize this thought process because
52:44you talk about Vision a lot um oh do I
52:47so in in Orit yeah yeah so in order to
52:50in order to make sure the team is is is
52:54happy and everyone's work working and
52:55and and um sort of multiplying each
52:59other's skills it's good to have that
53:00Vision so I know you mentioned the three
53:02pillars yeah so can you can you again
53:05clarify those three pillars and those
53:07those are correlated to your vision
53:08right yeah I guess they are how would
53:12you sum up your vision in three bullet
53:13points like what are the what's your
53:16vision for the game in in three bullet
53:17points I mean what like we could do it
53:19live now like with um Twisted Tower
53:22what's what's the three pillars yeah so
53:24for for me that my pillars are I sort of
53:27think of them as the hooks so I I have
53:30three hooks for the game okay um so
53:34visually it has to feel like Bioshock
53:37without a doubt but with a Twist so with
53:39like a Willy Wonka twist so Bioshock but
53:42Willy Wonka there there you go there you
53:45go that's number one yeah number two uh
53:48mechanically
53:50mechanically um it just needs to be just
53:54solid halflife firstperson shooter
53:57mechanics I don't really think there
53:59needs to be any other twist there the
54:01only twist is like sometimes you can
54:02move the tower and change the tower and
54:04change the Halls so it would be
54:05something like halflife Half-Life
54:09mechanics or or halflife
54:11Gunplay but
54:15uh you can change your environment that
54:18kind of thing you know okay and then the
54:20third one would be the uh the story and
54:23so the story needs to be
54:26um uh it would be something yeah it
54:29would be it would be Willy Wonka meets
54:31Bioshock so similar to the first one but
54:34it has to be a tearjerker story at the
54:37end so highly focused on story which is
54:40not necessarily the smartest wisest
54:42decision for today's market but that's
54:44what I wanted to do that's my forte so I
54:46said I'm going to focus on the story so
54:48really it's going to be it has to be a
54:50tearjerker story um despite it being
54:54crazy and violent and gross and weird
54:57and strange there needs to be an
54:58emotional through line okay um that's
55:02like the three Vision points yeah
55:03emotional because then you've got every
55:06decision you make every conversation you
55:08have with an NPC can feed back into that
55:11you know can set up this tear jacking
55:14moment and um yeah every every weapon
55:17you put into the game has to reinforce
55:20the halflife combat uh weapon play thing
55:25and then every yeah every visual design
55:27you you know you're not going to put
55:28pirates in it because it doesn't fit
55:30your Willy Wonka um aesthetic right so
55:33every single every single decision you
55:35make um has to has to trickle back down
55:38to one of those um right you know and if
55:40you come up with like oh but what if you
55:42go into space for a bit like no no cut
55:45that out make that another game um
55:47you've got to just stay focused um on
55:50those three things so and so the team
55:52will as long as the team sees this sort
55:54of
55:55simplified three bulleted sentence you
55:57feel like that's a great way to unify
55:59the team yeah definitely because
56:01everyone knows where you're going right
56:02I think um when they were making the God
56:04of War reboot they famously hung the
56:06three pillars up like in um somewhere
56:10like as you came into the building or
56:11something this is like a story and so
56:13every single day you were just seeing
56:15that and reinforcing that um everything
56:18comes back to these three three points
56:20what whatever they may be well to add
56:22Clarity to these three points do they
56:25this is just helpful for for for people
56:27listening because they might they might
56:29have trouble coming up with their three
56:31pillars are they do they have a a
56:33category each one like mechanics story
56:36and visuals or is it just anything it's
56:39the way we do it is just anything I
56:41think like for us it was like one of
56:43them was like player fantasy we had to
56:45you know the feel like you had a cult
56:47kind of thing um God I can't remember
56:51off the top of my head at this point
56:52what our three are but there was a point
56:53where I could recite them yeah um but
56:55yeah it was like yeah cult combat and
56:58player fantasy or something like that um
57:00gotcha or like yeah so it's it could be
57:03theme it could be I think maybe it's
57:04different for each game but it's um yeah
57:07it's just having those three points that
57:09you can go back to cool okay so let's
57:13let's um speaking of speaking of leading
57:16a team um and and and making great
57:21decisions for your team and picking a
57:24left or a right
57:25let's shift gears to Unity versus unreal
57:30okay um okay you guys you guys were
57:33pretty outspoken on Twitter about the
57:36unity
57:37debacle um what what are your thoughts
57:40on on this whole situation with unity
57:43and then finally what are you going to
57:45end up doing for your next game if you
57:47don't mind me asking and if you do mind
57:48Jay we can cut this we can cut it yeah
57:51so um one thing about so so the context
57:55is Unity uh announced that they would be
58:00charging something like 5 cents for
58:01every install um which I think was um a
58:08very shortsighted and very
58:10greedy uh decision because I I believe
58:13it was going to be retroactive as well
58:15so if you've already sold a bunch of
58:17games you suddenly owe them you know
58:19potentially millions of dollars
58:20depending on how successful your game is
58:23um I think ended up saying that wasn't
58:26they ended up saying that wasn't going
58:27to be the problem is how do you measure
58:31that you know it's so it's such a
58:34convoluted mess and so at first I was
58:37like Unity can't retroactively do stuff
58:39and so they ended up taking that they
58:41that away but then I realized how are
58:43they supposed to measure that they can't
58:44even measure it they had their own they
58:46said they had their own tools um but
58:48then I don't want to trust them you know
58:49it's I don't want to trust their
58:50algorithm they they yeah absolutely I
58:54mean it was just this big big mess um
58:56they had to backtrack
58:59on a lot of it I think they they are
59:01still going to introduce pricing but
59:03it's much lower and their CEO has has
59:05since stepped down um I well after we
59:10put out our tweet Unity were very quick
59:12to reach out to us and say hey can we
59:14talk to you um so what was your Tweet if
59:16you don't mind me asking uh we said that
59:18what so the the changes were supposed to
59:20come in in January and so so he said
59:22like buy cam now because in January
59:24we're deleting it um because of unity's
59:26changes and we we had people like crying
59:29and people took us seriously and I I
59:31totally understand but I I feel like it
59:33was um you know it was a joke that was
59:36said kind of through gritter teeth
59:38because we we were Furious like we were
59:40all like Furious and you know even even
59:42if it's like doesn't affect us which it
59:44would have done and then when they said
59:46it wasn't retro active it would wouldn't
59:49affect us so much um uh we still thought
59:52about like you know all our friends who
59:53make games like this would absolutely
59:55destroy people and people who like were
59:58launching on uh Game Pass and things
01:00:00like that that oh yeah that one was
01:00:03tough they would make they would launch
01:00:05a loss you know it in it's just crazy
01:00:07crazy um and so yeah so we we they were
01:00:10very quick to speak to us and we kind of
01:00:13let them know we we we felt very very
01:00:16upset by these changes that they were
01:00:18being that were being proposed um and
01:00:20I'm sure they were completely
01:00:22understanding because they reached out
01:00:23to me too and were like they were almost
01:00:26embarrassed they were like I we don't
01:00:29know what's going on Thomas we're sorry
01:00:32this wasn't our decision something
01:00:34happened please like basically just like
01:00:37forgive me but it's not really my fault
01:00:39CU I don't know what happened but but
01:00:41that was also such a waste of time right
01:00:44because it's it's like well they're just
01:00:46putting out PR people to kind of calm
01:00:47people down and it's very they like the
01:00:49person I spoke to is extremely Charming
01:00:51very likable but it didn't change
01:00:54anything and it was kind of what what
01:00:55are we even what are we doing here like
01:00:57why are you like speak to someone
01:01:00meaningful or don't don't waste our time
01:01:03um and so you know fortunately they've
01:01:05backpedal the fee they are introducing a
01:01:08fee it's much much lower but it is still
01:01:11you know quite a change and I feel like
01:01:14if they'd introduced this first we would
01:01:18still be outraged but because we were so
01:01:20outraged um we kind of letting this
01:01:23slide I don't I don't know Jay like I
01:01:26looked their new pricing model is on the
01:01:29surface and well I should say currently
01:01:32it is better than
01:01:33unreal's um pricing model yeah however
01:01:37the the big question here is how long is
01:01:40this going to last you know are they
01:01:42going to pull the rug out from us yes in
01:01:44a year yeah you know and that that makes
01:01:47me wonder like what are you guys going
01:01:48to do are you like cuz like dude my
01:01:51blood runs with unity like I understand
01:01:54it so well yeah and I open I opened up
01:01:57unreal and it's not unreal's problem
01:02:00it's my problem it's like there like the
01:02:02English language versus like Spanish
01:02:04it's like well they're both great
01:02:06languages you know what you just like
01:02:08one over the other because you were
01:02:09raised in it you know the same is true
01:02:12with unreal I was raised in that way of
01:02:14thinking and you know you were a flash
01:02:16guy I was a flash guy yeah and so going
01:02:19from flash to Unity maybe you disagree
01:02:21but like for me it was a smooth
01:02:23transition cuz there they were similar
01:02:25in a lot of
01:02:26ways um whereas I I opened up unreal
01:02:29dude and I was so confused I didn't
01:02:32understand the Paradigm it it was so
01:02:34bizarre yeah um what about you have you
01:02:37checked it out or gdau I haven't um
01:02:40checked out but I've been seeing great
01:02:42things about good um the thing is we are
01:02:45such a sucker for um you know bribery
01:02:49and so quite soon after we had this uh
01:02:52falling out with unity they had the
01:02:54unity Awards and they awarded us um oh
01:02:57there you go so you have to use Unity
01:02:59now so now we're we're like locked in um
01:03:01so we're going to stick with unity for
01:03:03for C of lamb of course and then for the
01:03:06new game we'll have to explore the
01:03:09different pricing models um I yeah like
01:03:12you I've kind of got like
01:03:14no like it would be a big a big change
01:03:17to change but we could um and we would
01:03:21um so you know I don't want to commit
01:03:23too much to one way or the other but you
01:03:25know this this award definitely
01:03:27sweetened things a little bit with
01:03:29us I'm obviously joking but in but but
01:03:33seriously um yeah I think it the trust
01:03:36has gone but the CEO went as well and
01:03:38that guy was um you know at EA I believe
01:03:42and was controversial for similar kind
01:03:44of you know Money Motivated reason I
01:03:46told uh I told my audience I you know I
01:03:49I got to meet John and we got to hang
01:03:51out for a little bit and they you know
01:03:55they it's kind of probably what they did
01:03:57with you which is like let's let's sort
01:03:58of let's sort of
01:04:01uh warm up to some of these developers
01:04:04you know and so they they I got to hang
01:04:06out with them and it was nice they were
01:04:07nice it was great I appreciate it Unity
01:04:10um but uh yeah I got a lot of flak for
01:04:13saying that uh you know Joe's John's a
01:04:16nice guy because he was yeah he's a
01:04:18really nice guy but it doesn't change my
01:04:21opinion that that was a terrible
01:04:23decision and it was asine yeah um but it
01:04:26brings me to sort of this thought which
01:04:29is what is it about
01:04:31Unity that works so well for you and
01:04:34your team is it just because you
01:04:36understand it because you've used it for
01:04:37so long or is there something about
01:04:39Unity that you do you genuinely do
01:04:42love it's a very good question
01:04:46um in some sense you know we we moved
01:04:48from flash we went to hacks which is
01:04:51like
01:04:52a it doesn't have an IDE so you're you
01:04:55know you're writing the game in like a
01:04:58text dock um and then you're compiling
01:05:00it to see if like and then you have to
01:05:02move you know the the health bar 15
01:05:04pixels to the right and then recompile
01:05:06it and check you know um and that was so
01:05:08painful we did that for two games um and
01:05:11so oh you did that for Adventure Pals
01:05:13didn't you yeah Venture Pals and never
01:05:14give up so oh and then you had I
01:05:17remember this dude I remember talking to
01:05:18you about this I think we were at PA in
01:05:20Boston yeah and you said you you were
01:05:22thinking about moving it to
01:05:25yeah so in the end what we did was again
01:05:27don't be the smartest person in the room
01:05:28we found um a guy called Matt Tha who's
01:05:31runs dude games now and who was Far
01:05:34clever than I am and was able
01:05:36to somehow create some kind of interface
01:05:40between hack and unity and so we
01:05:43exported the hacks game to console
01:05:46through Unity um I have no idea how he
01:05:49did it he's he ped he ped uh pinstrip
01:05:54for us thanks to you by the way oh did
01:05:57we you introduced us so he's done Cult
01:06:00of the lamb as well so kind of yeah long
01:06:03term yeah yeah never give up and stuff
01:06:05so all our games so um yeah so it just
01:06:08seemed like the next rather than having
01:06:11this insane you know hacks to Unity
01:06:14let's just do it in in unity so Cult of
01:06:16the Lamb was our first Unity project um
01:06:19and so we've obviously learned a huge
01:06:21amount there's so many things we did
01:06:23wrong at the beginning so it just feels
01:06:25like we we are using it we are
01:06:27comfortable with it everyone on the team
01:06:30you know when you look for new team
01:06:31members or or programmers most of them
01:06:34are kind of got Unity on there um yeah
01:06:37we haven't looked I mean the other thing
01:06:39is um we have such an amazing you know
01:06:42Jim Julian and now we have Carlos as
01:06:44well amazing 2D artists um and so we you
01:06:49know we need to have 2D as like a core
01:06:52of what we do
01:06:54um so I don't know unreal is primarily
01:06:573D right but I don't know what theu the
01:06:592D is not there yet it's it's it can't
01:07:02it can be yeah uh like like anything you
01:07:05know like for example gdau is an
01:07:08incredible engine however in my opinion
01:07:11it's not there yet for porting to like
01:07:13Xbox and switch and Playstation which is
01:07:15a big deal you know uh so yes I might
01:07:19get some flak when I say gdau isn't
01:07:21fully there yet
01:07:22because so many people are passionate
01:07:25about gdau rightfully so the same is
01:07:27true with unreal it's like I I just
01:07:29think every engine it has it has pros
01:07:33and cons and those pros and cons are
01:07:35uneven so like unreal is it is such a
01:07:38great engine for for High Fidelity 3D
01:07:41games whereas you're right like Unity
01:07:44it's just it's built it I think it was
01:07:47originally maybe built for with 2D in
01:07:50mind um I'm not so sure about that but
01:07:53it feels like it the the 2D tools are
01:07:55really strong um and intuitive you
01:07:58know yeah yeah I mean and that's so cool
01:08:01to us like we've I think we are a 2D art
01:08:05studio whe whatever you know obviously
01:08:07cold flam is like a 3D world but with 2D
01:08:10Sprites in it um so we we need I think
01:08:14we'll continue to emphasize handdrawn 2D
01:08:18sort of art assets because I think
01:08:20that's one of our biggest
01:08:22strengths cool well dude let's let's
01:08:25wrap this up here and let's have you
01:08:27give me one final sort of quick thought
01:08:29here what's it
01:08:32like uh reaching this sort of escape
01:08:36velocity where escape velocity you know
01:08:40yeah where it's like it's like you
01:08:42you're not scrambling anymore you know I
01:08:46don't think you
01:08:47are no no no no um you know Tom it's
01:08:50such a good question and I've spent the
01:08:53last year and a half thinking about it
01:08:54quite deeply quite seriously because you
01:08:57know
01:08:59everyone goes into the indie game
01:09:01thinking like you'd be lying if you said
01:09:04you didn't you know hope you'd find your
01:09:05golden ticket right like every everyone
01:09:07you know I I watched indie game the
01:09:09movie and that like resonated so much
01:09:11with me I love that vision of like you
01:09:14struggle really hard but then you have
01:09:15this huge success and and um I think I
01:09:18was extremely naive to to to sort of do
01:09:22that and pursue that I think we've been
01:09:25um oh yeah yeah well yeah I mean yeah I
01:09:28me we' we've managed to do it which is
01:09:30incredible you know um but there it's
01:09:33just I've just you know a million
01:09:35thoughts going around my head I'm trying
01:09:36to like give you a good answer but it's
01:09:38it's overwhelming it's have you become a
01:09:41better person or a worse person oh I
01:09:44don't think I could get much worse I
01:09:46think I was already I was already
01:09:47bottomed out you don't get much worse
01:09:49than Jay Armstrong um yeah well the
01:09:52reason I ask is cuz I found that when
01:09:55things go really really well for me I
01:09:57become
01:09:59very uh thoughtless about other people
01:10:04okay um I don't really I don't really
01:10:05think about what because I'm so
01:10:07comfortable you know like I've become
01:10:10very comfortable because things have
01:10:11gone really well for my YouTube and for
01:10:15games and signing with Publishers and so
01:10:17I get so comfortable that I start to
01:10:19forget what it was like before you know
01:10:23you know um and I forget how much of a
01:10:26grind it is and how much of a struggle
01:10:28it is for for people who who want to
01:10:31make games and they like for example
01:10:33they hate their job or they they don't
01:10:35want to go to college and they're just
01:10:37in a bad situation and so for me I
01:10:41become I can become jaded
01:10:44or you know um just too comfortable too
01:10:49comfortable you know what I mean I I
01:10:50don't know I do hear you I feel like
01:10:54what was quite good was I had a baby at
01:10:57the launch of the game so no matter how
01:10:59successful we became I was still just a
01:11:01fat dad in the middle of the night
01:11:03changing nappies like and my wife would
01:11:05not let me have a big head um there was
01:11:08no chance I was going to turn into this
01:11:10like you know egotistical Rockstar game
01:11:12developer as much as I had hoped I would
01:11:15I think um the first thing that we did
01:11:18was like sit down and say right how can
01:11:20we help our family members with like the
01:11:22money that we've made and stuff and and
01:11:23we've done a lot of that sort of thing I
01:11:25I think
01:11:27like uh getting a bit emotional um um
01:11:32the
01:11:32struggle got quite full on for a lot of
01:11:36years with um game development and um
01:11:40you know we're so lucky that we came out
01:11:42the other side and we've had the success
01:11:44but it could have easily not happened
01:11:46something could have gone wrong um there
01:11:47was definitely moments where the game
01:11:48was not clicking and um if we'd released
01:11:52you know 3 months four months earlier
01:11:54the game wouldn't have been what it is
01:11:56um so you know and I know um you know
01:12:01Jim Julian are doing a lot to think also
01:12:03about like how can they help other
01:12:04developers you know be be more
01:12:06successful in things um I think like the
01:12:09the the the tough times were like quite
01:12:12tough very tough and especially like you
01:12:14know again we had kids so like the the
01:12:17the pressure was really there like what
01:12:20the hell fin pressure Financial pressure
01:12:22like what the hell are you doing Jay you
01:12:24have children like what what is this
01:12:25risk you're taking because the last two
01:12:28games the last five years have not
01:12:29worked out and you've been really
01:12:31struggling um and so like this was
01:12:34really the last shot or we we did you
01:12:37ever feel like did you ever feel like
01:12:39you're you're just a kid living in a
01:12:41fantasy still it's time to grow up and
01:12:44support your family I was very worried
01:12:46about that like have I because you set
01:12:49yourself on this road like 10 years ago
01:12:51and you have to keep walking that road
01:12:54that you set because it's like what else
01:12:56am I going to do like how how can I get
01:12:58out of this and there really was no exit
01:13:00like I couldn't see the only way was
01:13:02through there was no backup so um oh wow
01:13:04so you dug yourself a hole kind of yeah
01:13:07I really felt that way and I think Jim
01:13:09felt that way as well um I think Julian
01:13:11maybe a lot younger than us as well so I
01:13:14think he had and he'd had some other
01:13:15games that were a bit more successful
01:13:16but definitely I think he said to us he
01:13:18knew we needed a win like we needed a
01:13:21win for this one um yeah yeah so i' um
01:13:25no so I think like it's still you know
01:13:27maybe in five years I'll be kind of like
01:13:30I'll have forgotten all of this maybe
01:13:32and forgot the struggle and I'll just be
01:13:33like well why isn't anyone everyone like
01:13:35a successful developer like you know um
01:13:38but it's still it's still raw like I
01:13:39still remember like you know two years
01:13:42ago like the fear um it got very very
01:13:45tight very scary and the game got
01:13:46delayed a few months which really was
01:13:48tough because the second baby was born
01:13:51in April we were supposed to launch game
01:13:53in March just beforehand but it got
01:13:55pushed to August so we had this and I
01:13:58broke my foot and I was sleeping in this
01:14:00small room with the baby trying to work
01:14:02all night and um dude it was uh it was a
01:14:06crazy old time so like yeah um I'm so
01:14:09glad so grateful if
01:14:12you've bought Colt land thank you I love
01:14:14you um and we're going to keep making
01:14:16this game as good as possible and we're
01:14:17going to keep pushing and and making
01:14:19amazing things so um yeah it's it's just
01:14:23yeah it's sick so here we areat the
01:14:26future yeah I know right um dude so
01:14:31proud of you um getting a little
01:14:34emotional here too because we've just we
01:14:37I
01:14:38mean you we we have totally different
01:14:41paths you know I haven't had a gang
01:14:42busters game but I'm just I'm I'm
01:14:45grateful for for for YouTube and and
01:14:48what it's what it's brought in for my
01:14:50family and it's amazing it's so cool to
01:14:52see both you know I remember first
01:14:54meeting you at the hotel at I think it
01:14:57was Pax in Boston thought this this guy
01:15:00is so freaking nice um and I love his
01:15:02British accent and I I just loved you so
01:15:06much and so I'm just so happy and so
01:15:08grateful that you've you've found this
01:15:10success and you really really deserve it
01:15:12so and by the way everybody listening
01:15:14link is in the description for the
01:15:16update oh yeah uh it's it's free right
01:15:19uh as long as they have a copy of the
01:15:21game it's free update with the just God
01:15:24awful perverse update that you've
01:15:27created yeah um just to get clicks gez
01:15:30yeah I know you really have sold out it
01:15:33sold out man and you know it's great I
01:15:35love it um all right yeah well dude this
01:15:39was great thanks so much for your time
01:15:41and that's that's it that's it let's do
01:15:45it again let's do it again soon all
01:15:46right cheers 100% cheers get over
01:15:50[Music]
01:15:52here
01:15:54hey thanks for watching by the way if
01:15:55you haven't downloaded that free 2D game
01:15:57kit below click below it's my treat to
01:15:59you I used this game kit to make a game
01:16:02for PewDiePie in 14 days and I actually
01:16:04got to play it with him in front of his
01:16:05audience which is really cool this game
01:16:07kit is totally free it's my treat to you
01:16:09and you can use it however you want you
01:16:11can make a commercial game and make a
01:16:12million bucks off this game kit I don't
01:16:14care or you could just use it for a
01:16:16hobby project it's my treat to you and
01:16:18by the way if you haven't clicked like
01:16:20that would mean a ton to me hit
01:16:22subscribe and also this is important hit
01:16:25that notification Bell here's why if you
01:16:27get notified of when I'm live you can
01:16:29watch me make my next game and let me
01:16:32know in the chat what you think about
01:16:35the game or any ideas you have and you
01:16:37might just show up your chat might just
01:16:39show up in the next video that I upload
01:16:42all
01:16:43right I'll talk to you later
01:16:46bye I love you too
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