00:00the buyer determines value the seller
00:02determines price you get to determine
00:04the price they get to determine value so
00:07when we're talking to clients we need to
00:09know what they find to be valuable right
00:13and when we find that selling becomes
00:15really easy if the client asks you how
00:18will I measure that I'm going to tell
00:20you the phrase that's going to save your
00:23life what is up everybody thank you very
00:26much for being here as part of adobe Max
00:272023 this is the first year and which
00:30I've actually spoken at the stage so I
00:31was super excited but I couldn't say I
00:33was excited cuz you notice the first
00:34day's keynote everybody was excited so
00:37I'm like I need to say something a
00:38little different but today what we're
00:39going to do is we're going to talk about
00:41how do you price your work how do you
00:43put a value on a thing that's intangible
00:45and it's something that people in the
00:47creative space especially suffer through
00:49and if we don't learn how to have those
00:50kinds of conversations we will forever
00:52be on the wrong end of the negotiation
00:55it gets really emotional for us we have
00:56an uncomfortable relationship with money
00:59and I want to try to get through this
01:00okay so I wrote some questions up on the
01:02board here just to kind of kick uh kick
01:04start the conversation which is how do
01:06you price your work and how do you how
01:08do you measure this because if we can't
01:09quantify it it becomes very difficult
01:12for us to communicate to someone who
01:14thinks in a quantifiable Universe you
01:16think in the realm of art style class
01:19taste upskill brand very intangible
01:22things so I would like to have a
01:24conversation with you today and
01:26hopefully shed some light on this and
01:28give you actionable tools to you can
01:30apply literally the next time you have a
01:32conversation with a client about the
01:33price of your work how does that sound
01:35good all right energy level's not so
01:39today the internet's like he's talking
01:41to nobody he's talking to his son
01:42there's nobody here okay great all right
01:45so who here does a thing for themsel
01:48that they have a difficult time
01:50negotiating or communicating the value
01:51of that thing to another person anybody
01:53here okay great so we need to get the
01:55microphone to you and we'll start
01:56talking okay you do know the drill you
01:59you will be on camera you will be
02:01recording for all of history and time so
02:03don't worry it'll be okay sort of okay
02:07and you the best moments where people
02:09were really tough with me and they get
02:10to be that person and you have millions
02:12of some fans I guess you maybe not your
02:16fans but you have millions of people
02:17looking at you I work with creative
02:19Services I do my own freelance stuff and
02:21then I also help with an agency and
02:23pricing their work and I think there's
02:25two different models that we use you're
02:27you're not an invited person are you you
02:29work for right I do both I I do fance
02:32and I work for somebody okay so let's
02:35just talk about your Independent
02:36Business okay no one of the words I
02:38would like for us and I use it too I'm
02:40sorry because it's the part of the par
02:41Lance and is for us to eliminate the
02:44word freelance I have a whole bit on
02:46this I'm not going to bore you with it
02:48but let's call ourselves independent
02:49business owners or a business with a
02:52with an employee of one that's fine
02:54because a freelancer is a person who
02:56sells their time for money Works in
02:58somebody else's rules and is hacks
03:00differently it's all very different okay
03:01I know it's the C popular term that we
03:03all use but maybe if we keep using it
03:05the wrong way we'll never get out of
03:07this okay all right so Nick is an
03:09independent business
03:11owner right and what do you sell I sell
03:15graphic design and layout and project
03:18management it's all it's all part of
03:22the Independent Business like that
03:25you're doing all of the half all right
03:27Nick has answered this question exactly
03:29the way I hope would he sells rainbows
03:33everything okay so he said graphic
03:35design layouts and then he started
03:37listing out like 15 more deliverables
03:40okay so the first problem is we need to
03:41like hone this into something we want to
03:44focus this beam of Light which is great
03:46but what what we know is the more
03:48complicated you make something sound the
03:49harder it is for somebody to remember it
03:51tell someone else and for many of you
03:53word of mouth will be your most powerful
03:54tool to get other people to hire you to
03:57create more opportunities because what
03:59you want to do you want to have more
04:03opportunities opportunities than
04:06capacity right everybody understand this
04:09concept this is um David C Baker concept
04:13confidence is when your opportunities
04:16exceed your capacity to do the work so
04:18right now if you have one opportunity to
04:19do a job your confidence is probably not
04:21great but if you have 35 opportunities
04:23and you know you can only do three
04:25projects your confidence will go up by a
04:27ratio of like 30 over three which is
04:30your confidence score will be 10 the
04:32goal in running any business is to have
04:35more opportunities than capacity so what
04:37we do is we drive down capacity our
04:39ability to do the work and we drive up
04:41the opportunities right make sense
04:43everybody this is basic stuff supply and
04:45demand so whenever possible we want to
04:48create artificial scarcity if we can and
04:51you don't have to be artificial about it
04:53so scarcity works in your favor here
04:55everybody understand this like when when
04:57there's a line to get a t-shirt and and
05:00they can only process so many people at
05:01a time the line gets really long and
05:04then other people walking by who don't
05:05even want a t-shirt or a print get in
05:07that stupid line because we're all sheep
05:09old you all understand that and then you
05:10get the shirt like why do I wait in line
05:12for 35 minutes the shirt I could have
05:14got for like $1 down the street less if
05:17you go to the Fashion District and my
05:19time is worth $60 like our mind doesn't
05:21even work anymore cuz like free shirt
05:24let's go get a free shirt okay so when
05:27we can signal to other people there's
05:28more demand than in this capacity we
05:30will do something good for ourselves and
05:32we start to go on the right side of this
05:33this is business economics 101 we
05:35understand that so what we want to do is
05:38we want to focus your ray of sunshine R
05:41life we really need to do this so we can
05:44burn a hole and that's the focus part
05:47okay so of all the things that you do
05:50you do sorry if we were to list it all
05:52in piece of paper and we went to your
05:53accountant your bookkeeper whoever I
05:56said of all the things that Nick does
05:58what is driving the biggest revenue for
05:59his business what would they say solving
06:02problems no you got more
06:05abstract I know what you're trying to do
06:07you're trying to make me draw like a
06:08whole scene a cloud now we're into a
06:11cloud that's what this is about it's
06:13this is an art class
06:15okay I think you're in control of the
06:18situation i' I've lost control and this
06:20always happens when I go live okay all
06:22right all right so he's like I solve
06:24problems what kind of problems do you
06:27solve trying to communicate what's his
06:34visual Instagram that's what I got to
06:36work with he's trying to communicate
06:39feelings visually he's getting more
06:41abstract he started with graphic design
06:43then he's a problem solver now he's
06:44communicating feelings you were you at
06:46the keynote right you want emotion or do
06:48you want specific I want to get pafic
06:51giving you both please give me something
06:53super specific like when when a person
06:55comes logo a logo thank God you got
06:58there okay Nick Nick makes logos that
07:01have a lot of feeling baked in it it
07:03solves a business problem I get all that
07:04up and it's under the larger umbrella of
07:07graphic design now I've turned this
07:09thing into an umbrella okay rainbow
07:10umbrella okay so now we get that now
07:13people can remember that and they can
07:15okay that's fine so when you talk to a
07:17client Prospect and they ask you uh how
07:21much do you charge to make said logo how
07:23does the conversation typically go give
07:24us the uh Abridged version the shortened
07:27version of this and I'll write it
07:30down somebody will reach out
07:35wanting some sort of logo made for a
07:39bakery a bakery okay let's stop there
07:41they're reaching out via social via Zoom
07:44phone call Old School KN on your door
07:46it's usually like a friend of the friend
07:49or know me in the community referral so
07:52what we're going to call that WMA Word
07:54of Mouth advertising which is pretty
07:55much how most of you get business WMA
07:57right word of mouth advertising referral
07:59social media something like that okay so
08:02now they're interested somebody has
08:03recommended you these are good things
08:05things are working in your favor and
08:06what is the next step just give me the
08:08high level step Discovery understanding
08:11what they need so what does Discovery
08:13sound like to you sitting down and
08:16trying to intake all of
08:21their needs for this logo or what the
08:25brand is about and just understand
08:27really what is it what are the inputs
08:30that they want to include in the output
08:33okay it'll help me if you just give me
08:36the high level not the detail so we'll
08:38we'll we'll do a 30 minute call to see
08:40if we're a good fit for each other okay
08:42is that okay yeah so that way everybody
08:44can plug in what you do specifically
08:47okay so let's say you do a 30 minute
08:49we're going to call this a fit check and
08:52I want to use that term very
08:53specifically a fit check because they
08:55get to check if you're a good fit for
08:57them and you have to check if they're a
08:58good fit for you I'm sure there's a
09:00bunch of businesses you want nothing to
09:02do with just because they come calling
09:04so this is the second concept is we must
09:06be discriminating sellers of creative
09:10Services okay meaning all these people I
09:14don't want you these people I want so if
09:18you don't fit here you deserve someone
09:21who's going to be excited and passionate
09:23about what it is that you do I'm just
09:25not that person everybody understand we
09:28we mistakenly believe that just because
09:30somebody comes calling we got to do
09:33their business we think we have to close
09:35this client and it's not the case the
09:38more discriminating you are what are you
09:39doing you're communicating
09:42scarcity okay now 30 minute fit fit
09:46check when you get to the point when
09:48you're talking about money how does that
09:52go I'll get the fit check and then kind
09:54of take time to deliberate and then come
09:59back and sit in another call where I'm
10:02like okay this is what you said you want
10:06right this is what I can offer you and
10:08then go over Logistics okay and then
10:11after that the price okay okay so what
10:15you're going to do is you're going to
10:19football to a second call because you
10:22need time to think right
10:28okay I don't want to presume do you
10:30watch our content um Sometimes some I
10:34yes okay but not as much as you should
10:37probably cuz we know do we know what he
10:39has already done wrong everybody no cuz
10:42you're like I do the same thing brother
10:44what are you talking about I do the
10:45exact same thing okay okay we'll
10:48continue on this journey I'm going to
10:49map this out and then we're going to see
10:52all the ways correct later well yeah
10:54well course correct okay so you you're
10:56like I'm ready let's do another call now
10:58you have I presume some kind of bid yeah
11:01yeah okay do you send the bid ahead of
11:03time no okay so you're like okay I have
11:05a bid for you and then you do what I
11:10through what is included in the bid okay
11:14and show them flexibility and if that's
11:18if that's necessary depends on the
11:19project and then okay show them just
11:23kind of affiliate the price with the
11:25product in the final deliverable Okay so
11:31tie the deliverable yeah that's a
11:34package everybody okay we draw this in a
11:37scale and we're going to put a dollar
11:38sign here so we know this right so if
11:41they feel like they're getting more from
11:43this and less of this then they're going
11:45to do the deal yeah if they feel that
11:47they're doing more of this and less of
11:48this they say No Deal mhm okay you guys
11:51know that show Deal or No Deal No Deal
11:54Deal we want to put more weight on this
11:56yeah okay so typically what happens
12:00then what's the next
12:03step I don't know for for me usually
12:08what is the right step I don't know the
12:10no you tell me your step this all been
12:11your step for me for for me is we close
12:15the deal we get the bed and then you
12:17start protection of the project so they
12:19say yes and sometimes they say no yeah
12:21and then they so there's a couple
12:23options option number one is they say
12:26yes option two is they say no what's the
12:30everybody what maybe I'll think about it
12:34let me get back to you let me talk to my
12:36partner right okay this is very good and
12:40so if we were to rank the kinds of
12:44get what is the best answer we can
12:47get Nick yes yes it has to be yes this
12:51is the number one answer on the board
12:53what's the second best answer I think
12:55the order that you have here is is the
13:00some people think maybe is a really good
13:01answer and often times maybe it's just a
13:04Time killer this is a vampire they Su
13:08your time I think it's worse than no it
13:10is worse than no okay so if we know we
13:13arrive here at the end why do we take so
13:16long to get here that's the
13:21question to give them a to give them a
13:25price back and get to the this
13:29okay well why don't we do this now sorry
13:31I'm clarifying I'm trying to understand
13:32why you're if we know we need to talk
13:35about this why does it take so many
13:39this I think there's a balance
13:43between understanding what people want
13:49also this ex existential
13:54fear I love the truthfulness speak to me
14:00am I pricing too much am I pricing too
14:04this you know there's there's a lot of
14:08yes head voices aniet all right let me
14:12ask you this for those of you who have
14:16worked with clients want to work with
14:17clients have a business do a side hustle
14:20how many of you guys feel this
14:22existential fear this inner dialogue
14:25between am I worth it is it too much is
14:27it too raise your hand let me see you
14:29and everybody who has not raised their
14:30hand you're Liars that's okay we know
14:32who the honest people are check and make
14:34sure the majority of you raise your
14:36hands the rest of you are rich correct
14:39rich in life you say rich in life
14:41brother I get you okay so here's what I
14:44want you to do okay the longer okay let
14:49questions when you ride a roller coaster
14:52what is the scariest part of a roller
14:54coaster you guys can yell at answer you
14:56can participate go ahead the Apex you
14:59know it's that part I don't think it's
15:01Apex it's a part where you Glide for
15:02half a second before you drop it's a
15:05moment of anticipation that creates the
15:07greatest fear but once you're in the
15:09drop you're good you're probably like oh
15:10my God but you're okay it's all the
15:13other D D D D D D and then you close for
15:15a little bit you're going to feel the
15:16drop where your stomach goes into your
15:18throat right so if we know that could we
15:21just warp to the part where we drop
15:23wouldn't that be better that's why
15:25there's rides that go straight up and
15:27they go straight down yeah and then
15:29people are really cruel have you seen
15:30those videos where they put them in the
15:32drop and they're like oh there's
15:33something wrong with the machine and
15:34they hit the button and then people will
15:36freak out have you seen that video it's
15:38awesome cruel person loves his job I
15:40love that okay so what we want to do is
15:42we want to skip all this stuff because
15:44the hours the days and the minutes that
15:47transpire between the moment of first
15:48Contact to this point creates more
15:51anxiety gives your brain more time to
15:54freak the F out is that okay all right
15:57so what we we want to do is we want to
15:59just rip the bandage off now before I
16:01tell you what the answer to this problem
16:03is and I will I promise I want to ask
16:05you this question and the question is
16:06this where in the real world do you go
16:09when you want to buy something that you
16:12can't find the specs or the
16:15price where does this exist except for
16:18in the world of creativity I want to
16:21know I'm asking for real real estate
16:25really okay let's challenge this Matt
16:29also wants to make the
16:30video I like that okay Matt there are
16:34four homes for sale the the broker calls
16:37you or the agent calls you and says you
16:39want to go see these four
16:41homes what's your first
16:48liar what do you mean tell me can we
16:50throw the mic to him here can go
16:55ahead go ahead yeah just tell me more
16:58about them do they meet my criteria what
16:59is your criteria for buying a home well
17:01it has to have a good view uh it needs
17:04neighborhood I want to have four
17:11Garden probably a pool keep going keep
17:13going yeah swimming pool
17:15gym gym in a house yeah homes come with
17:21gyms no it doesn't you buy your own gym
17:24equipment okay room for massage parlor
17:27what do you want no that that's good Zen
17:29Rock we're good there yeah okay that's
17:32know that's the first you said what's
17:34the first question you asked yeah that's
17:36the first question I
17:37asked criteria yeah but criteria has a
17:40thousand sub questions to it what is the
17:42one criteria that matters the most you
17:44asking the wrong person no I believe I'm
17:46asking the right person any person who
17:48does want answers quickly is the right
17:50person okay price is a a factor but it's
17:54not the first a factor yeah so I have a
17:56$25 million home to sell you you're
17:58going to go see that home no $15 million
18:02home no yeah it's the factor why are we
18:07pretending now you can go up above that
18:09a little bit but not like three times
18:11usually they say what's your maximum
18:13budget right yeah but you know here's
18:15the thing there's this thing that's
18:16called red fin and you just search by
18:18price point and by neighborhood and it's
18:21really big it's not at the bottom it's
18:23not like does it have a pool you know
18:25because we know that if it's out of your
18:27price point there's no point for you to
18:29go and see it it's a waste of your
18:31having time because I can show you
18:33beautiful homes that have all these
18:34things but the number one criteria I
18:36would argue is if you don't know the
18:38price you're wasting my time and that's
18:41why almost all real estate shows your
18:44price only the homes that are more money
18:46than you can afford don't show you the
18:47price because at their point they're
18:50like if you have to ask a price you
18:51cannot afford the home yeah scarcity
18:54that's where we want to be that's where
18:55we all want to be baby I do need to know
18:57the price send my agent in you know
19:00video conference me in cuz I don't even
19:01have time to see it right it's price so
19:03we failed next one what's the other
19:05example in the real world where do you
19:07go to buy something where you can't find
19:09the price nor the product description
19:13anywhere I know there are a couple
19:14places but not a lot Eric Art
19:16Gallery Art Gallery yeah
19:20really the art galleries I go to the
19:22pric is right there there's something
19:24called the price sheet artart Museum Art
19:30I've been to art galleries without the
19:31price without the description they want
19:33to have a a discussion first before they
19:35tell you the price really how do you
19:39that um as a artist or as a collector as
19:42a buyer as a buyer um I think I don't
19:48initial like opaqueness of it but me
19:52neither yeah why is that tell me about
19:55feelings I think that you should go to
19:57an AR Gallery also to enjoy the art but
19:59if you're if you're buying yeah you want
20:01to know the price because otherwise you
20:03can move on to a gallery down the street
20:04that has the prices now I know you're an
20:06artist and you may have more knowledge
20:07about this than I do but I've talked to
20:09people who are on the boards of like
20:11Moma and things and they tell me how
20:12this art World works it's totally crazy
20:15there's a there's like behind the Iron
20:16Curtain kind of thing and when you know
20:18what how it really works you'll be
20:20shocked almost all the art that you want
20:22to buy is already pre-sold you didn't
20:24even have a chance to buy it right so
20:26there's this whole way of manipulating
20:28art and art prices and how it gets into
20:29Galleries and museums we won't go there
20:31but the feeling that you talked about
20:33this opaqueness does it make you feel
20:36uncomfortable as a buyer as a buyer
20:38we're only talking buyer uncomfortable
20:40and anybody here feel really comfortable
20:42when they're not given the information
20:43that they need to make a decision I
20:45didn't think so right so when you're an
20:47uncomfortable state are you more likely
20:49to make a positive decision to spend
20:51money or less positive yeah less
20:53positive yeah so this is the problem
20:55we're so scared to talk about money that
20:57we're creting is uncomfortableness in
20:59opaqueness because the person who called
21:01up Nick they might need to know this
21:02right away and Nick not by by Design or
21:05by great intention or kind of Nefarious
21:07means is delaying that process for as
21:09long as possible and I know when I go to
21:12buy something if I need to know that
21:13information I want them to tell me ASAP
21:16okay so we have to get over this idea
21:18that talking about money is a bad thing
21:20that it's uncouth to do this that you're
21:22some kind of money grubbing capitalist
21:24Pig and you might be and that's okay but
21:26we got to get over that idea
21:28okay now look at this here this is the
21:31heart of what I'm going to talk to you
21:32about today is what am I getting
21:35relative to what I'm spending okay now
21:40determine value is it the seller or the
21:43buyer who gets to determine
21:50seller buyer okay I get some answers
21:53buyer anybody else want to say
21:56seller you do you want to say seller why
21:59can you hand her the mic
22:01here because the buyer doesn't know as
22:04much information as what the seller is
22:07providing let's test your theory okay um
22:10in a different class in a different room
22:12we would do we would do like critical uh
22:15critical thinking skills and this is
22:17what we' normally do I'm going just take
22:18a second to do this okay before you say
22:20something the first thing you should do
22:21is think your thought try to just prove
22:23yourself right away if you can then you
22:25don't think that thought okay so let's
22:29say again what you just said I said the
22:31seller knows more information about what
22:34they're selling than what the
22:37buyer is getting okay and therefore
22:41therefore the seller determines the
22:46perfect okay do you buy nfts no you know
22:51what a non-fungible token is you've
22:53heard of this thing that's the tech bro
22:55has been talking about for two years
22:56yeah okay aren't they really
22:59valuable um would you like to buy one I
23:01know people here who will sell you one
23:04now as a buy you're I don't know much
23:07information so I wouldn't even think to
23:10kind of but but the seller knows all the
23:12value yeah it's what you just said the
23:14seller knows value right so would you
23:15buy it you know the answer just say the
23:19internet's waiting um no why not can you
23:25again all right well
23:28I'll just help you out here okay you
23:30wouldn't buy the nft because you have no
23:32idea it has no valueable to Value to you
23:34yeah to you so who gets the determined
23:36value the buyer or the seller Eric's
23:38going to tell you it's worth $110,000
23:40you're like well to you it is but not to
23:42me but you're going to have other buyers
23:46wait hold the mic to your mouth but
23:47you're also going to have other buyers
23:49who actually know and each buyer has
23:52Target and each buyer has what the same
23:54decision decide if it's valuable to them
23:56right now not not Eric Eric can do
23:59whatever he wants so here's the
24:01thing okay the buyer determines value
24:05the seller determines
24:08price that's what that see words do
24:10matter yes you get to determine the
24:13price they get to determine value so
24:15when we're talking to clients we need to
24:17know what they find to be valuable right
24:22and when we find that selling becomes
24:24easy okay all right are you come along
24:28with my party here yeah yeah okay good
24:30good cuz I'm going to run out of paper
24:32soon let me go to the next page here not
24:38one okay everybody in order for me to
24:42get you to the promised
24:44land you have to understand the logic
24:47argument here if somebody is not in
24:50agreement I would like for you to argue
24:52with me right now or forever hold your
24:54peace really I honestly I'd like to
24:59anybody you guys follow the logic so far
25:01okay first of all we're not Freelancers
25:03we're independent business owners we
25:06need to talk about money early we need
25:08to understand what the buyer determines
25:13to be valuable so the entire sales
25:16process it doesn't matter what you're
25:18selling is what is valuable to
25:20you okay what is valuable to
25:24you when we know this everything is so
25:28now I'm going to ask you honestly how
25:30many of you begin your sales
25:32conversations with a mindset I got to
25:34ask this question or something like this
25:36to understand what's valuable to them do
25:38that you do what do you say can you hand
25:42mic is Ethan go ahead Ethan yeah so like
25:44for any particular project like what is
25:46the main thing you want to get out of
25:47this what do you want to achieve what is
25:49your kpi for okay this good this
25:52KP what you want to achieve what's your
25:55next question good job job um Al so yeah
26:00NE well whatever they tell me it's like
26:02I'll go like timeline how quickly do you
26:03want to achieve that okay
26:07timeline okay what else and then like
26:09outside the logistic like at that point
26:12I have I'll just guesstimated a value
26:14based on oh you screwed it up already do
26:17you watch our Channel yes watch it again
26:20yeah okay but just watch this replay and
26:23we'll figure it out all right okay
26:25there's a couple things uh Ethan got off
26:27to a really Good Start he really did
26:28right everybody where did he fail
26:31here what step is he missing he's
26:33missing a critical step come on guys I
26:36know it's day two we're tired I
26:38know come on we just need to be sharp
26:41for one hour then you can go back to
26:43being you can back go back to being
26:45brain dead Okay hand hand the mic to Jen
26:47oh budget no no no no oh okay okay all
26:50right budget I want to I like no no
26:54you're missing something in here don't
26:55do not listen to Dro who'll lead you
26:57down the wrong dark path all right you
26:59fell for it see don't trust Rego that's
27:01the moral of the story all right watch
27:03this he's like how what is kpi a key
27:07performance indicator no I know what it
27:09stands for oh but explain it to us in
27:10normal terms oh so what they get out of
27:14it that's like not the thing like what B
27:16how their business gets better that's
27:19not really kpi okay there's another word
27:21for kpi we'll call it success metrics
27:26okay does that make sense those are
27:27terms okay we have to be careful about
27:28the terms we use because they kind
27:31of um frame how we think about things
27:34how do you measure success that's a very
27:36important question to ask okay yeah
27:38let's just say they say I want a piece
27:40of art that's the that's what I want to
27:42get from you all right we're going get a
27:43piece of art right because that's what
27:47sell how how valuable is this to
27:51them it depends on what their success
27:54is how have how has this conversation
27:57gone for you in the past so like say
27:59it's a website like what how many like
28:03how many new visitors to your site do
28:05you want to get an X
28:08timeline okay and then what else how
28:10what else do you talk about um what
28:13issues are you having with your current
28:14website okay how do you want to improve
28:21workflow CMS yeah okay what else
28:24anything else um what are your problems
28:26with your current design what do you
28:28love what do you hate what do you want
28:30fix okay this is pretty good yeah all
28:34right are we are we good
28:37here no we're not no we're not good
28:47questions are not helping them to
28:50surface what is valuable to them it
28:53looks like it on the surface but I need
28:56to know so here's the question I would
28:58ask right oh you want me to build your
29:00website the question I would ask them is
29:02why is this important to you you're
29:04missing a why question in here why is
29:07this important to you what business
29:09problem does this solve how does this
29:11improve your bottom line how does this
29:13generate more value to your business if
29:16you don't ask that question how can you
29:18find out this answer because problems
29:21with your existing design do not
29:23necessarily tie back to that how is your
29:25CMS working do not tie back to that
29:27Direct indirectly it does what issue so
29:30when they tell you an issue you must say
29:31how is this impacting your business and
29:33if they say it doesn't what do you
29:36do cry then I don't offer that well you
29:41move on yeah move on then you say well
29:43what does matter to you yeah the whole
29:45point is all our questions should be
29:47leading us to this Promised Land of what
29:50is valuable to you now here's the thing
29:54every prospect that calls you that
29:55reaches out whether they're buying nft
29:57an art piece a website a logo design a
30:01video a photo they already know what's
30:03valuable to them first of all their time
30:05is very valuable so don't waste any of
30:07it they just don't know how to
30:08communicate that to you and they're
30:10scared that you're going to take
30:11advantage of them so we're going to do
30:13is we're going to enter into this
30:14conversation sensitive to that fact and
30:17help them talk about the things they
30:18don't want to talk about so you have to
30:20have the verbal skills to ask these very
30:22basic questions that do not require
30:25fancy language why are we having this
30:26convers today Mr or Mrs client what
30:29problem are you trying to solve in your
30:31business how would this improve whatever
30:34problem is you're trying to get rid of
30:36does that make sense yeah all right yeah
30:39so now we know what kind of questions to
30:41ask how many of you are asking that
30:42question today a couple of you good are
30:45you having success okay are you having
30:48any problems I need to help you with can
30:50you communicate your value to the client
30:53can you I didn't say that right can you
30:54communicate your value to your client
30:56you have zero friction when it comes to
30:57the buying selling process let's go back
30:59to Ethan Ethan you're going to ask the
31:01clients why why are we doing this why is
31:04this important to you what impact would
31:05this have what would they say then they
31:09we'll sell more units perfect yeah you
31:12just got to a value question didn't you
31:14yeah is that the kind of questions you
31:15usually ask yeah but I can't seem to
31:18phrase it right now okay fine you know
31:20what it's called is the brain fog of
31:22being live on Instagram and the Internet
31:24it's a real thing yeah people get like
31:26significantly not as intelligent when
31:28they're on camera okay so they want to
31:30sell more widgets right yep okay what do
31:35then well figure out how they're selling
31:37them currently no do not go to Solutions
31:41stay in the problem what is valuable to
31:43you when you understand the problem
31:46clearly to the point in which the
31:48clients end you nod and like that's it
31:50that's it then you can talk about
31:52Solutions but not before then okay okay
31:56what you want to stay in this uh
31:58diagnostic phase for as long as you can
32:01bear and you can bear a lot MH okay do
32:05not rush the solutions you don't even
32:07understand it they want to sell more
32:09widgets what question would you ask them
32:11what talk to me about the widgets no
32:14detailed question we don't want that
32:17okay I'm going to help you out there's
32:18only one one word that's boxed up here
32:21and that word is value or valuable so we
32:24want to talk about value as much as we
32:27can until we understand the full value
32:29because in our mind we have this scale
32:32of value this is the value one right
32:35here right the more we talk about this
32:37the heavier that box gets I'm going back
32:39to your videos now so you see what I'm
32:42saying you haven't really study the
32:43videos the way you need to yeah all
32:45right so stay on this you're selling
32:47more widgets fantastic what's the next
32:49question how much are your
32:58no I'm trying to go to Solutions okay
32:59brain fog again yeah okay all right
33:01that's fine we're going to keep moving
33:03on okay so does any does any you want to
33:05Ali oop have somebody help hand the mic
33:07to him go ahead say your name Kristoff
33:10Kristoff Christof kristofh okay what do
33:12you want to say no I mean I would have
33:14said how many more widgets no like how
33:16many more could be a question so you
33:18have something to calculate actually
33:20value back to Value it's pretty logical
33:23right okay hold on to the mic okay if
33:25you want to sell more widgets how many
33:27more this's a symbol I think it's a is
33:30it a Greek symbol Delta what is the
33:32difference that's what we want to know
33:34cuz there are clients
33:37here and they want to go to here yeah
33:40yeah so what is the Delta between where
33:42you are and where you want to be it's a
33:46very basic question so Ethan would ask
33:50okay how many more widgets you want to
33:52sell and they he they can give it to you
33:54as a 2X a 1.3x x a 6X whatever they can
33:59just give you a number most people will
34:01not say 6X cuz they know they're going
34:02to walk into a value
34:04trap okay and then you just say back to
34:07them and this is hypothetical it's a
34:09beautiful way to phrase
34:11something if you achieve this how much
34:16would that how much would that what
34:18impact would that make on your business
34:20it's a hypothetical it's an easy
34:22question to ask answer if you were able
34:24to double your sales of dead widgets
34:27what would that do for your business oh
34:29I'm going to make another
34:31$100,000 a day a week a month a year
34:36they're like oh a month then you should
34:39be grinning from ear to ear like the
34:41chest your cat right there but don't
34:43show it to them on the outside just
34:44Stone Face the whole thing $100,000 a
34:47month is that net or gross you got to
34:49talk like a business person right now
34:51you know if you don't know what that
34:52means look it up is that gross or net
34:56just just you only need to know a few
34:58terms everybody okay they say that's
35:00fantastic it's gross and you're like
35:03that's gross what are your net
35:05margins talking like a business person
35:0825% net margins oh you're okay fantastic
35:11so by my math you're talking about 25k a
35:13month times 12 that's a
35:17lot okay you've just done the value
35:21conversation okay so you're here at 1X
35:25widgets you want to be here at 2x
35:27widgets over what time span do you want
35:32result okay 6 months what makes you
35:35believe you could do this we got a new
35:37product we the website needs fixing we
35:40know that our conversion rate now you
35:42have a clue our conversion rate is say
35:452% and if we just converted at point or
35:49that's not 0 2% we can just convert it
35:51to 3% we're going to do
35:54great that is something as a web
35:56designer developer you can work on day
35:58in and day out you measure that every
35:59single time you do some AB split testing
36:02it don't matter what the site looks like
36:04at that point all you care about is what
36:07they care about what is valuable to you
36:10okay so I'm going to sum this up in a
36:11very simple way and I'm just open up to
36:13Q&A okay the two B's you have to
36:20Baseline and what is the
36:22Benchmark where are you now and where do
36:25you want to be now if you're an
36:27experienced professional which I assume
36:29you are an experienced professional if
36:31they say we want a 17 exus in 30 days
36:34and you're like wait a minute spider
36:35sense's going off that don't sound right
36:37this sounds like Fantasy Land I cannot
36:39promise you results do not sign up for
36:42work that you know you cannot do that
36:44would make you complicit in some
36:46something wrong okay you're going to
36:48stress out and that's a kind way of
36:50putting it you're going to get yelled at
36:51in about 30 days when this doesn't work
36:53so you have to say well um what in the
36:56past makes you believe that this can be
36:57done no no let's bring this to reality
37:01you're a business adviser at this point
37:04why don't we set more realistic goals in
37:06a time in 30 days I think we should try
37:091.2x is that reasonable yes it is how
37:12much would I then you go through this
37:14again so if you want to have a more
37:16successful smooth frictionless
37:18conversation about pricing your stuff
37:20you have to find out what is valuable to
37:24terms now you've seen me do this before
37:28I didn't know what's going to happen
37:29you're well Ethan builds websites it's
37:31easy to measure value but what if you do
37:32a logo where you can't measure the value
37:34is that what you're thinking
37:39yes so now what are we totally screwed
37:43who here sells logos raise your hand
37:45okay everybody who sells a logo let's
37:47put our brains together how can we
37:50structure an architect this conversation
37:52with something that's very intangible
37:58cuz we don't know how to measure that
38:00sometimes okay we're going to stick with
38:01a logo now we need to price a logo cuz I
38:04want to send you all home soon to be
38:06able to have this conversation to have
38:09it frictionless to be able to charge 2 3
38:114 10 x of what you charge today and send
38:14me a small 10% of that is that fair they
38:18won't nod now Mark they're like no it's
38:21a verbal contract isn't it so tight I
38:24give you free information help you 10x
38:25your business and you're like that's why
38:27I don't like to work with designers you
38:29cheap bastards all right logo logo let's
38:32charge for logo okay you know um I was
38:36talking to Sean Sean canal and he said
38:38scared money don't make money I see a
38:40lot of scared money right now scared
38:43money don't make money all right how do
38:46we measure the value of a logo so let's
38:47take this conversation again talk to C I
38:51logo what question should we
38:55ask huh why because I want to know the
38:59answer no I just messing out with you
39:02can you say more than just one word
39:06yeah uh why do you want a new logo what
39:09do you think it's going to do for your
39:10business okay hey pretty good somebody's
39:14watching videos right so why do you need
39:17a new logo for business do you ever ask
39:18that question I do what do they say um
39:21they oftentimes just kind of reiterate a
39:23lot of like what they think I think
39:25everyone says they they say we we need
39:27it for social media we need it for our
39:29website we need it for our marketing um
39:33all that kind of stuff and what do you
39:34say then I usually then start trying to
39:36Pivot the conversation to why they got
39:39into the business in the first place and
39:41who they are you're doing so good before
39:45J oh my God you only watch the first
39:47half of the video so you know what she's
39:51this is just like my wife my wife's also
39:52named Jesse by the way Jesse love you
39:54babe all right I'm like honey uh these
39:56are the 17 steps you need to do this
39:58right step one step two I got it I got
40:01it I got it babe and when it doesn't
40:02work I'm like babe I'm trying to tell
40:03you how to do this right yeah so you're
40:07like I watched the first part Christian
40:08talk about value see
40:10you I got this AC it right watch a long
40:15time come on Jesse you make me pull a
40:16muscle here all right will Patterson
40:18hand hand the mic to will will will
40:19knows I think I hope will represent here
40:22go ahead all right what's the
40:24question I'll be on the jet like is
40:29Chris his hair is up but his mind is not
40:32that's about right okay all right no I I
40:34w't put you on the spot it's okay
40:35another logo person when you're asked
40:37this question why do you need a logo and
40:39that go social media marketing website
40:41what's the next question you should ask
40:43to focus on this part bring it back
40:46there okay let's get let's give it to
40:48Jen what results are you looking for
40:51like what's the measurable Benchmark
40:53that we're that those are going to like
40:56so social media for instance so you ask
40:58me why do you need logo Chris and I say
40:59to you um we need to use it for social
41:02media marketing and our websit so these
41:04are what we call like applications okay
41:07applications there's a rule here
41:09everybody you want to practice
41:11intentional listening do you know what
41:13that means intentional listening you
41:15listen to every word that they say every
41:17single word you don't inject new words
41:20you don't misinterpret you don't try to
41:22repackage right so when you ask that
41:24question why is this important for your
41:26business and you said to help me get
41:29noticed and then you
41:31said uh goldfish now what okay okay okay
41:37so why is getting notice important what
41:40is it going to do for your business to
41:41be more noticed it's going to help me
41:44sell more widgets see then you get right
41:46there you introduce a new word and you
41:48want details we don't want to go into
41:50details you designers you're all
41:52freaking so obsessed with details it's
41:54like you got an OCD with details or
41:56something we only get into the details
41:58when we go make the stuff when having a
42:00high level conversation you keep it high
42:02level you want to get noticed why is
42:04noticing import into your business
42:06because I'm going to sell more stuff
42:08what kind of stuff you sell now you're
42:09right back over here okay now there's
42:13this other way of approaching the
42:14question is you get them to prove to you
42:17why it's important to
42:18them all right little reverse psychology
42:23okay don't tell your clients this I'm
42:25going to tell you or say this all right
42:27if you tell your clients this and you
42:29say you heard it from me then you can't
42:31use it on them okay here's what you do I
42:34I do this often I'll say something like
42:38in my experience clients come and ask us
42:40to make new logos often times they do
42:42not need a new logo they're told like
42:45it's going to help with X Y and Z and
42:47it's not always the case in fact I'm not
42:49even sure your logo is bad why do you
42:51want a new logo what are you going to
42:54now I don't like the logo I have why not
42:58what's wrong with it it's not getting me
43:00widgets it's not getting you what
43:02widgets I'm not selling widgets with and
43:04you think the logo is going to sell you
43:07widgets the logo is going to help me to
43:10get notice my widgets notice so that
43:13people will buy them all right let's do
43:15this we're going to go down this Rabbit
43:21okay okay you guys remember this I know
43:23you guys are all like fish brain right
43:26now okay your goal is to get
43:29notice yes yes okay I need you to stay
43:32in character if you break character
43:34it'll break the internet okay your goal
43:41true yes why' you think about it for so
43:45long because it's not the the true goal
43:49the true goal well the true goal is to
43:53widgets but in order to sell widgets I
43:56need to be noticed that's fine okay
44:03okay let's just stay focused on
44:06this of all the things that we can do to
44:09to get notice list them for me please
44:12what can we do to get
44:14notice uh some ads ads
44:22um you know how to get notice help her
44:26what what does that mean social media
44:29social uh I mean gain a following gain a
44:33following okay we'll call this what
44:35social marketing social media marketing
44:37okay smm social media marketing what
44:45else don't PIV it right now stay on
44:47notice I think gaining Authority in
44:50whatever it is that's the result of
44:51getting notice okay how do we get notice
44:53we are in the wrong conference Hall we
44:55don't know how to to get noticed here
44:56everybody aren't you here to get noticed
44:58to learn how to get notice to capture
45:01attention come on guys do long how do we
45:09What We Stand Out you want my jacket
45:17naked naked this is the mother social
45:20media dragons here what are you
45:29okay all right all right we have a
45:31little problem here okay hold on hold on
45:33I I want all your answers this is great
45:35this is the stuff for internet fodder
45:36okay this is perfect I actually really
45:38enjoy the painful process of extracting
45:40information from you the most awkward
45:42way possible I really do I really do
45:44those of you who have been able to grow
45:46some social media following what have
45:51done connection okay
45:54post who said said connection that's
46:00concept Rel watch this okay remember I
46:02said practice critical thinking
46:04everybody before you say it out of your
46:06mouth hole ask yourself can I prove
46:09myself wrong if you can close the mouth
46:14hole no because why I'll tell you why
46:17okay I'm going to run a social media
46:19marketing class I'm going to help you
46:21grow your followers to 200,000 followers
46:24and you come and the whole conversation
46:26like you need to make connections you
46:28going to be happy with that oh they need
46:30to be meaningful no you're going to kick
46:31me in the face and say what that's all
46:33you can tell me make connections of
46:37That Brand so you guys are
46:41branding okay okay okay there we go now
46:43we got an action again you can give away
46:45stuff and there's another way for that
46:47it's called promos you can run
46:49promotions right yeah you can do collabs
46:53you guys heard of these things you can
46:55you can do sponsored posts you know you
46:57can pay other people to talk about you
46:59right you can hire a PR firm to get more
47:02attention remember the pr firms you can
47:07stunt you can do con who said that Jess
47:12you got all smart all of a sudden you
47:13out of the brain fog just like let's dig
47:16deeper into this it's like come on all
47:18right now you understand okay are we
47:20good there's lots of things here what's
47:28sh okay look my team you are not allowed
47:32participate if we know each other if you
47:34have my phone number if we're in the DM
47:37keep your mouth shut for a little bit
47:39let the awkward audience work through
47:40the problem you know what I love my wife
47:44she goes sometimes to my workshops and
47:45my classes and I'll ask her what do you
47:47have she's like I have the answer I'm a
47:49baby you've been through this 14 times
47:52if you don't have the answer today we in
47:53trouble babe we in trouble our kids have
47:56no shot in the universe all right so our
48:00people calm to garon down all right come
48:03down all right we're missing something
48:06missing a logo logo isn't that
48:11weird that the thing that we sell to get
48:14attention is not even on the list it
48:16didn't even occur to us to put it on the
48:23problemo so if a says oh I want a logo
48:27it's going to give me notice how should
48:29you respond um I'd ask if they tried any
48:33thing else that's on that
48:35list what list the list that we just oh
48:38so you okay they say they need a new
48:41logo it asks did you try promotions or
48:45giveaways perfect okay so what we're
48:48supposed to do is we're supposed to hold
48:50a client's needs above ours that's what
48:53it means to be of service to someone
48:56and if you're here to sell logos and the
48:58answer is clearly not a logo you're not
49:00supposed to keep selling that anymore in
49:03fact you should not be selling at all
49:05the main objective of having a sales
49:07conversation is to help the clients get
49:09clarity over their problem and once we
49:12get cleared of the problem we can say oh
49:13there's a misalignment it doesn't fit
49:15anymore okay so when they say yeah I
49:17want to get more notice and that's why I
49:19need a logo it's your duty and
49:21obligation if you're running an ethical
49:23business that is in service to others to
49:25say of all the things that you can do
49:28like running ads doing promotions
49:29publicity content marketing social media
49:32and a logo does it make sense for you to
49:35do this you do not want to decide this
49:37for them like you know what what is your
49:41name Tina Tina Tina okay Tina we're
49:45already doing all that I still want this
49:49you're back in business baby you're back
49:51in business all you have to do is say it
49:53they get to decide is that cool cool cuz
49:56like for example like you go see a
49:58doctor and the doctor says we needed to
50:00do surgery but you should probably have
50:02three other you know conversations I
50:05already had those doc I want your
50:06opinion you come highly recommended I'm
50:08ready to go baby so like okay operate
50:11let's go okay so they say you know what
50:15we're already thinking about this and
50:17all of them told us you need a better
50:21logo they're arguing for you now that
50:24we're not going to run on these ad
50:25campaigns is publicity stunt when we're
50:27going to have to change our logo in 3 to
50:30months why is that it's going to be very
50:33expensive to change a logo that is not
50:35good they're selling themselves again
50:38you understand how this is going the
50:40problem why this conversation usually
50:42doesn't happen with you cuz you're in
50:44your hamster wheel I got to sell logo I
50:47got to sell logo I got to prove it own I
50:48got to explain all the reasons why logo
50:51good that's why I've said before and
50:54clearly you guys are not listening to me
50:57stop selling start serving be of service
51:01to someone they will sell themselves
51:03happens every single time I'm getting a
51:05nod from the LA girl I got why you
51:08hiding I just gave you I just threw a
51:10think that you don't have to okay it's
51:12not bullets you don't have to dodge them
51:14okay right she's a great you guys
51:16understand this is what we should do so
51:18then the real question for you is this
51:19not my team team be quiet why aren't you
51:23doing it what's holding you back
51:26clearly this is not rocket science I'm
51:27not showing you some weird stuff not
51:29some choke hold you've never seen before
51:32conversation I want to know why Adobe
51:35Max 2023 we're going to solve this
51:36problem right now right here we're going
51:38to end this problem forever for all
51:39creative people why if you know this
51:41it's super intuitive why aren't you
51:43doing it please help
51:51insecurity what are you insecure
51:54about every true I get a lot of face
51:56there Mar I think you touched on it it
51:58was that existential
52:02fear is it the insecurity of if you ask
52:05this and you try to tell them you don't
52:07need this that they'll actually take
52:08your advice and leave yeah yeah you ever
52:11hear that expression if you love
52:12something set it free if it doesn't come
52:15back it was never yours set the client
52:19free set them free baby let them
52:23fly they'll fly face into a
52:27car that come crawling back with a limb
52:29I'm so sorry I meant for you to design
52:32the logo not discount logo designer my
52:35bad and you're like well I don't hold
52:37grudges so we'll just charge you three
52:39times as much it works it works send up
52:43free all right let me tell you another
52:46thing about human psychology what do we
52:50most what do we want the most the things
52:53we can't have what do what do we want
52:55the least the things that keep chasing
52:57us human psychology later today for
53:01those of you that are single ready to
53:04mingle you're going to be at some event
53:06somebody's going to be hey how's it
53:08going what's your number like can we
53:10connect get away from me creep right and
53:14then there's that person who too cool
53:15for school they don't even pay you any
53:16mind you're excuse me do I know you can
53:19we you see what I'm saying it's human
53:21psychology but what you do is you're
53:22chasing them I heard Blair n say this
53:26wrap it up you said you I could have as
53:31okay 232 okay we're going to wrap this
53:38desperate you're very repelling you
53:45repulsive if we serve the client if we
53:48find out the bench marks and the
53:50Baseline about what they want and we
53:51really listen with intention we only use
53:53what they tell us and we keep asking
53:55asking the important questions we will
53:57find out what is valuable to them and in
53:59fact many people who buy a logo what are
54:02people who want to spend a lot of money
54:04on logos why do they want
54:06that why do you want that Amy do we have
54:09to go somewhere is that
54:12why no they don't they're going to be
54:15here all leave if you don't want to make
54:18money that's fine by me all right so if
54:21you want to stay stay all right it's not
54:23us oh okay oh okay okay all right Alex
54:27coming out and buy some merch okay
54:29anyways all right so here's the thing
54:33how many of you care about your image
54:35raise your hand if you do and if you
54:38don't you should I mean let's work on it
54:39a little bit all right so people who are
54:44conscious care about their image and the
54:48logo is one of the most important
54:49aspects of their image would you agree
54:52like when I buy a shirt and it's a ugly
54:54logo I put the shirt back I'm sorry I
54:57just not going to do it I'm I'm
55:00very um snoody that way all of it has to
55:03go together so you want people who are
55:05very image conscious like they care
55:08about every little thing they're detail
55:09Ori oriented they're Discerning buyers
55:12of high quality Goods then what you have
55:15to do is you have to look at your you
55:17have to look at yourself you have to
55:19look at your website you have to look at
55:21your grams and everywhere else you post
55:24you have to ask yourself am I
55:28attractive to that kind of
55:31person who is a Discerning buyer I don't
55:34know why I drew a hat sorry my hand got
55:42goods and you have to be really honest
55:44with yourself I see your websites I've
55:47seen them they're not that
55:49good so what you can do is you can use
55:51the power of design presentation mockups
55:54photog graphy very important to make
55:57your logos look like premium so you
55:59attract premium buyers okay I'll tell
56:02you the mistake you make right now okay
56:05and you could just nod your head if
56:06you're guilty okay here we go here's the
56:08number one mistake that you
56:10make and it's not going to seem like a
56:13mistake you're just going to drop put
56:15your logos like this on a grid that's
56:18all you're going to do so what you're
56:20doing is you're just selling the mark
56:22and not what the mark feels like in
56:24appli ation so what you need to do is
56:27because these people don't have a great
56:29imagination you have to close the
56:31imagination Gap you have to put the logo
56:37them so they're like wow oh my gosh this
56:41is a really important logo we want this
56:44logo on everything you follow so you use
56:47photography all the mockups generative
56:49tools it doesn't really matter how you
56:50get there you have to AR direct the heck
56:52out of this I don't know if you know
56:55this but Apple spends an incredible
56:57amount of money taking photos of
56:59products that they do not
57:01exist they do not exists that phone
57:04that's on the box that is not the phone
57:07that is 35 phones past it together so it
57:11looks a certain way the highlights the
57:13Shadows the reflections no one
57:15photograph can capture all of that how
57:17do I know I have friends that shoot for
57:19Apple they're selling you this dream you
57:22know Steve Jobs famously walked into an
57:24Apple Store and said why don't my
57:26products look like the way they do on
57:27the ads he doesn't realize an army of
57:30retouchers worked on this he said change
57:32all the lighting in the store and that's
57:34why their products look like the way
57:36they do there's a beautiful soft box
57:38over all their products they take those
57:41things into consideration so it's
57:43closing the Gap so what you're doing is
57:45you're selling the Romance of the logo
57:47of what it can be not the actual making
57:50of it because as you saw with text to
57:56over only if this is what you
58:00sell I sell the conversation I sell the
58:04dream I sell the potential I sell my
58:07skills the making of it is the easiest
58:09part what what are we making why are we
58:11making it that's the hard part that's
58:13what they'll pay you
58:14for does that make sense okay I'm
58:18overtime let's spend more time what do
58:21know what else you want to know uh
58:23especially with logos like some
58:24sometimes it's not even about not
58:26getting noticed it's more about like a
58:28brand refresh or like something to like
58:31keep up with culture or something like
58:32that how do you measure things like
58:35that Lucas wasn't here the whole time
58:38were you uh just say I wasn't I was it
58:41yeah somebody help him out somebody
58:43answer that question I believe we
58:44already talked about this so they want
58:48refresh how do you talk about the value
58:51refresh hand hand the mic over to Jen if
58:53Jen doesn't get to I'm going to throw
58:57bridge Jen tell them you want them to
58:59sell you the refresh so basically you
59:05how this me getting on the bridge
59:09it's reverse psychology you want to tell
59:12them ask and tell them all the things
59:15that they I want you to do it literally
59:17don't tell us the concept of it Lucas
59:19wants to know he goes I wasn't here okay
59:22so Lucas's question is is um I want to
59:26refresh and he's come to me and wants to
59:28refresh okay hand on the mic hand on the
59:30mic we're going to have to go through
59:31this painful process
59:34it so I run a company I have a logo it's
59:38outdated I need something more modern I
59:41need something more fresh to just give
59:43it a better look to keep up with current
59:48trends so how how do you think that this
59:51is going to this refresh is going to
59:53increase your business buiness or get
59:57noticed did he use the word notic
01:00:08didn't um you know from our clientele
01:00:12we've been hearing a lot that our
01:00:15outdated um we might it feels like we
01:00:18might be falling behind a little bit um
01:00:23as uh just current trends and we want to
01:00:25stay on top of that what is it that has
01:00:28made you think your logo is how to
01:00:31become current or trendy um I want to
01:00:36outdated some of the shapes some of the
01:00:38gradients maybe we want to go no
01:00:40gradient just because of current logos
01:00:43right now are not doing that are there
01:00:46other things that you've tried to be
01:00:48more trendy marketing
01:00:51wise yeah we try to do Tik toks we try
01:00:55X we try to do Instagram take it uh step
01:00:58it up with reals still not working okay
01:01:01can you can anybody identify the problem
01:01:02here with with the way that the
01:01:03question's going anybody is this my
01:01:05original mic yes it is okay can anybody
01:01:09identify the problem okay uh Lucas hot
01:01:12mic over to her no no we need you just
01:01:15hand it hand it we all have hands most
01:01:18of us go ahead so my name is Alex um I
01:01:22what's your name Alex Alex okay yeah
01:01:24feel like she was putting control in the
01:01:26client um and allowing him to kind of
01:01:29guide the conversation as opposed to
01:01:31using her expertise to guide it how how
01:01:35do you know that from
01:01:37listening besides because I said so what
01:01:41did she do specifically to make you say
01:01:43that why why did you come to that
01:01:45conclusion it seemed like her questions
01:01:47were very open-ended and not specific
01:01:49okay that's the problem your question
01:01:51you're like on a fishing expedition
01:01:52you're all over the place here if you
01:01:54can do this right it only takes one
01:01:56question you get the conversation down
01:01:58that shoot again you can see so we have
01:02:00to practice your ability to ask
01:02:02questions in real time cuz you know what
01:02:04happens people watch a role plays they
01:02:06write the script down no other human
01:02:08behaves that exact same way and you're
01:02:09like fumbling around this is why it's
01:02:11not important to remember the scripts
01:02:13but to understand the concepts when you
01:02:15understand the concepts right so Lucas
01:02:17says I need a Rebrand a refresh you're
01:02:20like great why is the Rebrand refresh
01:02:22important to you he'll say whatever and
01:02:24you say is this going to impact your
01:02:25business at all how so and you keep
01:02:29driving him into that you don't
01:02:30introduce new Concepts it's going to go
01:02:32all over Place does that make sense okay
01:02:34let's get it back to Lucas mik back to
01:02:39please all right so Lucas yes how is
01:02:44refreshing the logo going to impact your
01:02:48it uh just due to current trends we feel
01:02:51like our logo is outdated due to the
01:02:54color the fonts I understand you're
01:02:56speaking like a designer not like a
01:02:58client Okay gradients and like oh I
01:03:00don't want this client this is a control
01:03:01freak okay all right what would the
01:03:05say uh simply alarm's going off already
01:03:09on I'm not trying to go to a business
01:03:12route is or is that what we're you go
01:03:14wherever you want to go I just say you
01:03:15can't talk like a designer okay let's
01:03:17say um it's been 50 years since I've
01:03:21updated the logo and we I feel like as a
01:03:26CEO we look outdated to the public and I
01:03:29would like to change that okay as a CEO
01:03:31so you have a lot of brand equity in
01:03:34this thing yes so what kind of departure
01:03:38do you want to make from this a big one
01:03:39or a small one small one I still want
01:03:42the I still want the public to recognize
01:03:44okay the company okay you just put
01:03:46yourself in a new class of clients now a
01:03:49client who's been in business for 50
01:03:50years has hired a lots companies in
01:03:52between so now I'm on my jack up the
01:03:55price rate okay in my mind already all
01:03:57right so we're talking about a big thing
01:03:59so have have you worked with other logo
01:04:01design firms before not specifically
01:04:04logo design you must have you've been in
01:04:06business for 50 years oh I'm sorry I
01:04:07thought you uh no I have it no I have it
01:04:10okay yeah no you have I have you you're
01:04:14the CEO of a company that's 50 years old
01:04:16okay that means you're at least 50 years
01:04:18old yes cuz you didn't start when you
01:04:20were zero okay so you're an older
01:04:21gentleman okay distinguished okay right
01:04:24you know how to run a business you've
01:04:25worked with creative agencies before no
01:04:27yes okay yes I have you're the CEO you
01:04:29said you're a CEO right yes okay stay
01:04:31consistent with your character okay okay
01:04:34what have you paid for this in the past
01:04:3650 years ago I paid $2,000 okay so
01:04:40you've not touched this at all since
01:04:41then I have not okay have you hired any
01:04:44creative Services
01:04:45recently uh for other things but not
01:04:48logo okay today if you had to redesign
01:04:51it what do you think the fair market
01:04:52value for this is
01:04:5830,000 okay are we solving a $30,000
01:05:06potentially so if you don't fix the logo
01:05:10you're only going to lose $30,000 is
01:05:13saying uh no in the
01:05:15future if we keep on looking outdated we
01:05:18might fall off and people might not care
01:05:20anymore okay do you know how expensive
01:05:22it is to change a logo
01:05:25for a 50-year-old company website social
01:05:27media packaging letterhead uh uniforms
01:05:30trucks uh collateral of all kinds do you
01:05:33know what expense you're going
01:05:35to encounter when you change your logo
01:05:39you must be aware of this yes yes how
01:05:41much are you going to spend in
01:05:44that to do all merch and all the
01:05:48branding uh roughly
01:05:50roughly $2 million probably yeah okay
01:05:54okay you're going to just spend $2
01:05:56million in the printing of this does
01:05:58this seem like good insurance against
01:06:00this spend no it doesn't all right you
01:06:03see the problem yes how much should we
01:06:04spend against that what do you
01:06:07think like I'll help you out what is 10%
01:06:11million uh I'm not you're a CEO dude uh
01:06:15what is that $200,000 200 yeah sorry
01:06:19okay it's okay it's all right we're not
01:06:20mathem magicians here 10% is tough I get
01:06:23you all right $200,000 right okay okay
01:06:27is that a lot to you to
01:06:31is sure why uh 2 million no all right
01:06:36you already I'm sorry two 200,000 stay
01:06:38focused man yeah do you see that
01:06:39squirrel stay focused stay focused dude
01:06:43is $200,000 allowed to spend against $2
01:06:45million of printing costs
01:06:48alone it does sound like it it does or
01:06:51does not it does in what universe is 10%
01:06:53% of something of the printing cost a
01:06:56lot of money it's only do say things
01:06:58like that it's not it's only 10% okay so
01:07:01here's the good news I don't think we
01:07:02have to spend 10% okay but it's good to
01:07:04know that you're willing to spend
01:07:06$200,000 right coo yes so I'm going to
01:07:09go away I'm going to cook on this for a
01:07:11little bit I'm going come back to you
01:07:12with a bid but let me just ask you this
01:07:13question before I go if you get a
01:07:15proposal from me yes that is south of
01:07:18$200,000 are you ready to move
01:07:22forward I would consider it yes what's
01:07:26the think about if it's south of 200,000
01:07:30yeah you we just said you you're capable
01:07:32you're ready to spend 200 if I submit a
01:07:34bid less than $200,000 would you move
01:07:36forward with that and you're like not
01:07:40why because I'm not sure how your logo
01:07:44could how can I measure that your
01:07:47logo will be effective as far
01:07:55what if I go with you how how can I
01:08:04I ensure that the new logo
01:08:09will create the conversion that I need
01:08:13Oh I thought you were looking for brand
01:08:15refresh which you didn't mention
01:08:17anything about conversion should we talk
01:08:18about conversion uh we don't have to no
01:08:21no you do you want to talk about
01:08:22conversion you're killing the audio
01:08:24right now by the way I could just see
01:08:25the Instagram followers just going like
01:08:26to nothing you're killing all of us come
01:08:29on okay okay let's do a timeout I love
01:08:31Lucas it's going to make a hot piece of
01:08:33content I guarantee you it will yeah
01:08:34here's the problem Lucas is not a CEO of
01:08:36a multi-million dollar Corporation he
01:08:38cannot act like this he doesn't even
01:08:39know how to speak their language you see
01:08:42so now the role play is totally broken
01:08:44right so he's going all over the place
01:08:48and if this were me with a real client
01:08:49I'm like I'm sorry um I think I have to
01:08:55cat I'm so sorry this is I think you
01:08:58need somebody it's not going to be me
01:09:01today right okay cuz I try to ask you a
01:09:03simple question and you're all over the
01:09:05place 2 million 200 10% you this
01:09:07conversion refresh it's all over the
01:09:09place 2000 right you know maybe early
01:09:12set Alzheimer's coming on I do not know
01:09:14I'm not your guy I would never say that
01:09:16you guys right but you know it's not the
01:09:18right fit I want to feel good about
01:09:20working with you and you're so unfocused
01:09:22right now yeah one day's conversion cuz
01:09:25my fear is I'll take your $200,000
01:09:27you'll feel great and you'll tell me
01:09:29it's about bananas tomorrow and I'm like
01:09:30bananas we were working on a refresh
01:09:32then we're working in conversion now you
01:09:34saying it's about bananas I can't solve
01:09:35that problem right I need you to know
01:09:38that you know the problem right follow
01:09:40yeah so you have to be brave enough to
01:09:43identify that and say very politely with
01:09:46a lot of diplomacy you know I'm sensing
01:09:48this is not a good fit you deserve
01:09:50someone who's going to be as passionate
01:09:52about your project As You Are I just
01:09:53don't see myself being that person much
01:09:57respect to you I wish you well so does
01:09:59it end up not being about the
01:10:01measurements of if if a client is like
01:10:03how do I measure that it it doesn't even
01:10:05become about the measurement it's more
01:10:07about no I'll find a good price all
01:10:09right this is a very good question by
01:10:11the way it's the smartest thing you said
01:10:12so far if the if the client asks you how
01:10:16will I measure that this is a really
01:10:18good one and we're going to end here
01:10:19okay how would I measure
01:10:24what should you say back everybody I
01:10:26only want the smartest people how will I
01:10:29that I'm going to tell you the phrase
01:10:31that's going to save your
01:10:32life hand him the
01:10:36mic how do you measure that now say it
01:10:39louder please how do you measure that
01:10:42now okay you're really close you're
01:10:46God okay you do okay okay give it a back
01:10:50excited what are your goals
01:10:54no he was much closer okay I'm going to
01:10:57teach you a secret okay it's three
01:11:04letters and then you repeat back this
01:11:07statement remember I told you
01:11:09intentional listening do not introduce
01:11:11new words if he says how do I measure
01:11:13that do not introduce the word goals you
01:11:15just change the conversation okay he was
01:11:18really close tan was really close you
01:11:19say I don't know how will you measure
01:11:22that you just ask right back what are
01:11:25you going to say then Lucas Mr Smarty
01:11:26Pants hand on the
01:11:28mic I don't know how will you measure
01:11:39through relevance of uh well he'll give
01:11:41us a whole bunch of reasons how to
01:11:42measure it yeah okay that's the
01:11:44beautiful thing watch how do I know
01:11:45buying your product will make me happier
01:11:47I don't know what makes you happy ah
01:11:50okay how do you know how will I know
01:11:51this will make me taller how what what
01:11:54size are you what you know you just say
01:11:55it right back to them in their exact
01:11:58language because the truth is listen to
01:12:01the question how will I measure
01:12:04that well I don't know how you measure
01:12:06things the only way I can know is to ask
01:12:08you how you measure it m I don't know is
01:12:11a very powerful statement okay you
01:12:13should use it more often yeah and then
01:12:16you literally just repeat back what they
01:12:17say back to them that's it like a monkey
01:12:21you say right back to them do not change
01:12:22the words don't say how will you measure
01:12:24your goals don't say how will you
01:12:26measure success don't say how will I how
01:12:29will you measure kpis just say it right
01:12:32back to them exactly the way they said
01:12:33it cuz they feel then you were listening
01:12:35to me when you a new word new words have
01:12:38new meanings that's why it's a new word
01:12:41then you're not listening you're not
01:12:42paying attention and they want to know
01:12:44are you hearing me are you seeing me and
01:12:47when you do that their confidence goes
01:12:49up you follow yeah okay all right I wish
01:12:53I could stay longer I I I can but
01:12:55somebody else needs to speak all right
01:12:56thank you very much for being here guys
01:12:58thank you see you next
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