00:00 I'm an introvert not amazing
00:02 academically didn't feel like it
00:03 belonged anywhere average at best and
00:06 yeah you created Spotify yeah
00:09 Daniel Peck Spotify founder ncuo he's
00:11 not only saved the music industry he's
00:13 created a 50 billion dollar company and
00:15 he himself is worth more than four
00:17 billion dollars flunked high school then
00:20 started on my first company and that
00:21 later got Acquired and you retired at
00:24 23. yeah the first month was fun
00:26 nightclub sports car 20 or 30 girls
00:29 throwing around money six months in
00:31 realized that this thing I thought I
00:33 wanted I just didn't want at all I was
00:36 just empty just thinking am I ever gonna
00:38 get out of this depression and what to
00:40 do in life what if you can work on
00:42 something you actually care about what
00:43 would you pick music but the industry's
00:46 going down the drain I honestly did not
00:48 think we would succeed but if we succeed
00:50 I knew it was going to be a big thing
00:51 Spotify is here a One-Stop shop for
00:54 music Spotify I love it I read the
00:57 journey to that success I had multiple
00:59 near-death experiences it was awful ran
01:01 out of money I lost all of the air
01:03 gained 30 pounds and the problem was I
01:06 modeled myself from The Mark zuckerbergs
01:08 of the world around every meeting I did
01:09 the best product person and it just
01:11 wasn't me share the burden with someone
01:13 it is so important we tend to believe
01:15 the world is more logical than what it
01:17 is but it's based on relationships be
01:18 easiest person to deal with and you'd be
01:21 surprised how many problems it solves
01:23 one of those problems was Apple
01:26 what's your opinion on Apple
01:38 Daniel what is the most important
01:41 context that I need to know about you to
01:44 understand the man that sits in front of
01:46 me today and when I ask about context I
01:49 want to go right back to where you come
01:51 from and that earliest environment that
01:53 I almost I'll miss it like an oven I see
01:56 at our earliest context as like an oven
01:57 that baked us into who we are today what
02:01 I'm a product of a very very strong
02:07 a woman that probably had a ship on her
02:13 um against her sibling her brother her
02:16 older brother who kind of said you can't
02:18 do this you can't race
02:19 a child to be productive
02:22 um and I think she kind of uh just well
02:27 hell-bent on making a point of showing
02:33 um I was going to be successful in her
02:36 definition and successful meant
02:38 well-educated well-read and be able to
02:42 handle almost anything thrown at me and
02:47 just to give you an example of that
02:48 while I was brought up in the suburb of
02:51 Stockholm very much a working class
02:53 rough neighborhood one of the big things
02:56 that my mother did was
02:59 um doing a pentathlon and the pentathon
03:03 was like the classic pentathlon so that
03:05 means fencing horseback riding shooting
03:09 running and swimming doesn't sound like
03:12 what someone basically from the projects
03:15 in in Stockholm would do but she thought
03:19 that would be a good sort of
03:21 wide education for me
03:24 um and and pretty much my entire life
03:26 has been around that I I was kind of
03:30 um my my fine motor skills was pretty
03:32 good my rough motor skills wasn't very
03:34 good so she enrolled me in like an
03:36 all-female gymnastics group
03:39 you know I'm an introvert so she
03:42 enrolled me in a theater group to have
03:45 me you know learn how to express myself
03:52 um an Eclectic childhood but one where
03:57 she heavily influenced me
03:59 brought me along in almost every context
04:02 with adults with professors like at a
04:06 very early age and just had me sit along
04:09 or with just the person from next door
04:13 who's struggling uh getting to the next
04:16 paycheck and and I really saw all of
04:20 those contracts in life from a very
04:23 did she have any desire for you to
04:26 become any specific thing because uh I I
04:28 I'm honestly not sure but I think she
04:31 wanted me to be broad
04:35 um and and I I think in many families
04:38 you kind of have this maybe educational
04:40 pressure where you have to be a doctor
04:42 you have to be a lawyer like none of
04:44 that mattered to my mom
04:45 um the only thing that mattered and she
04:47 kept repeating us was that you need to
04:49 become a good human being
04:54 um if I wanted to study sure she thought
04:57 education mattered and it was important
05:01 um not like in other families and the
05:05 um you know probably influenced Spotify
05:09 um I very much come from a music family
05:10 my my grandfather was an opera singer my
05:13 grandmother was an actress in theater
05:16 but also a jazz pianist so
05:20 um like music education was weirdly
05:22 enough like in the the premier education
05:25 that was focused on for me and then all
05:28 the other stuff she was basically only
05:30 important that I showed effort
05:33 um I I had a pretty easy time in school
05:35 and so she constantly kept pushing me
05:39 because she felt that I wasn't I wasn't
05:43 making enough of an effort uh no matter
05:46 what so it wasn't about the grade I
05:47 could come home with a straight A uh she
05:50 would still be like well did you really
05:52 make an effort I don't think so and um
05:55 and um and and so for her it was kind of
05:58 always that thing about like just
06:00 pushing and making the real effort
06:03 so she cared more about less about the
06:05 outcome and more about how much of your
06:07 potential you were realizing yeah
06:12 so on school then you you reference that
06:14 she kind of identified you're an
06:16 introvert early on but then I think you
06:18 said you had a good you're an easy time
06:19 in school typically people that are
06:21 introverted that are
06:23 um an only child at the time that they
06:27 often they struggle a little bit yeah
06:28 because you know finding friends and
06:31 fitting into social groups and I read
06:32 somewhere else that you don't love small
06:34 talk you tend to gravitate towards the
06:36 people that you know yeah what was
06:38 school like for someone for a kid like
06:40 well I I think you know
06:44 um I think there are many types of
06:45 introverts let's begin with that and I
06:47 can switch it on when I have to uh and
06:50 certainly I think the theater helped me
06:53 um you know I can be very project a lot
06:55 of things if I'd like to uh and be a
06:58 force of nature but it doesn't come easy
07:00 that requires tons of energy whereas
07:02 others get energy from like the room and
07:05 they're like very excited it's just not
07:08 um for me anything with anyone I'm not
07:11 comfortable with is really taking a lot
07:16 um but but I think the easy time in
07:18 school was just uh I loved learning I've
07:20 always loved learning so
07:23 um you know you put be putting in an
07:24 environment where you're constantly
07:27 being forced to learn new things wasn't
07:29 a very hard thing for me and um I have a
07:33 um I used to have a very good memory I
07:35 don't have it anymore but I was able to
07:37 memorize very easily the concepts and
07:40 the things that we talked about in
07:43 um I think in that end it was very easy
07:46 for me and then again because my mother
07:49 tried to make me very broad
07:52 um the positive and the negative of that
07:54 aspect is I could kind of be in any
07:56 social group I could be with the
07:58 athletes I wasn't the best athlete by
08:00 any stretch of the imagination
08:03 but it worked I could be in the
08:05 musicians group as well with any of the
08:08 people really good at Arts uh man I did
08:11 you know I probably wasn't the best at
08:13 any of that stuff either but it was
08:15 pretty decent but I could also be in the
08:18 math group I probably wasn't the best of
08:20 math but I was pretty decent and
08:25 um that to be honest is kind of the
08:29 um you can kind of plug me in anywhere I
08:31 won't excel at practically anything
08:34 but I'll hold my fort
08:35 and that's I think both a blessing and a
08:39 curse the blessing is in is that it's
08:42 very easy for people to
08:45 for me to be able to relate to other
08:46 people enough where I'm accepted in the
08:50 but it's hard in the sense the downside
08:53 with that is that I never really belong
08:55 anywhere because I'm not that one-sided
08:59 as an individual you know I'm not an
09:02 artist I'm not a technologist
09:05 I'm not a business person I'm all of
09:08 that and probably a few other things as
09:13 and and you can see that very clearly
09:15 with my friend group too you'll have
09:17 artists on the one set and you have
09:19 entrepreneurs on the other hand and it's
09:21 very hard for them to speak to each
09:22 other most times but I love it I love
09:26 um seeing very creative people I love uh
09:29 you know business people and scientists
09:32 mixed together whereas the scientist
09:36 have a hard time I've found uh speaking
09:38 to and an artist and quite often they're
09:42 talking past each other and for me it's
09:45 um and and that's the blessing and curse
09:48 when I speak to people that know you and
09:50 work with you they describe you as
09:52 now ambition and being ambitious is an
09:55 interesting word because it's often
09:57 loaded with this presumption that
09:59 someone has a desire for a certain
10:02 outcome yeah like they're trying to
10:04 they're ambitious because they want to
10:05 be really successful or they want
10:09 um are you ambitious and what does that
10:11 actually mean to you
10:14 um yeah I'm I'm ambitious
10:16 um but I probably am ambitious in the uh
10:20 the way my mother taught me to be
10:22 ambitious which is the inputs right
10:26 um you know if I see someone with
10:28 Incredible potential that squanders that
10:33 um I asked myself why why are you doing
10:36 this and why not strive for the great
10:38 thing and in so many cases in life I
10:40 found that the difference between you
10:43 know aiming super high versus
10:46 um aiming just a little bit higher than
10:48 where you are from an effort perspective
10:50 it's about the same effort so you might
10:53 just as well aim higher you know this
10:55 saying of you shoot for the stars and
10:57 you land on the Moon that is very much
10:59 kind of my life philosophy why not try
11:02 to do it bigger why not try to do it um
11:05 even more interesting and maybe you have
11:07 to settle for something less
11:09 but isn't it more interesting and more
11:11 fun to try to do the really big hairy
11:14 Bodacious thing not for everyone
11:17 maybe maybe not uh but I don't know that
11:20 because you'll work with so many people
11:22 don't lean into ambition
11:24 yeah that that's true but I I also
11:27 wonder if if that's true uh or whether
11:32 they're just worried about
11:34 really testing themselves and
11:36 understanding where their limits are so
11:39 many people are more afraid of failure
11:40 than they are of success uh and that
11:43 stops them from even beginning to try
11:47 um right and and I find that so many
11:50 times like the amount of people I'm sure
11:52 came to you is like oh it's really good
11:54 for you but I had the same idea it's
11:56 like okay well why didn't you do
11:59 and and oftentimes it's like well for
12:01 this and that and that reason and and
12:04 they talk themselves out of it um but at
12:06 the very core I believe it comes down to
12:08 that they're actually more worried about
12:10 failing than they are about the
12:12 prospects of succeeding
12:14 your kids then what would you advise
12:16 them to do if they were say they wanted
12:18 to follow in your Footsteps in
12:19 particular or start a business at that
12:21 juncture where we kind of leave High
12:23 School yeah and we can either go into
12:24 like work or university would you do you
12:26 think the the university system is a
12:29 little bit outdated yeah I do
12:33 um but as with many things
12:36 um you know I I I don't think it's bad I
12:39 don't think it's good either I think it
12:40 depends there are certain people that do
12:43 well in that structure and and need that
12:46 kind of rigor of that sort of path to go
12:49 down and do incredibly well
12:53 um you know the essays and the Asics and
12:55 they're really good and they're really
12:57 good with the lectures and then taking
12:58 the notes and just have that sort of
13:01 discipline in that area of their life
13:03 where they do well in that circumstance
13:05 and then that education then sets them
13:07 up for a greater things so I think it
13:09 depends I mean if your dream is to
13:11 become a lawyer then I think you have to
13:13 go through path right
13:16 um because it's impossible otherwise I
13:18 think if you want to be an entrepreneur
13:20 uh the single best thing you can do is
13:23 to probably study as many businesses you
13:26 can and get as much business exposure in
13:29 that so what do I mean by that well it
13:32 can come in by working for businesses
13:34 that are great but more importantly
13:36 probably working for great individuals
13:38 and learning from them right so if you
13:41 are fortunate enough to be able to do
13:44 um you know we're talking about this but
13:46 you're behind the scenes version
13:50 and and and being able to like work for
13:53 you in that and see you up up close it's
13:56 going to be invaluable for that
13:58 individual to get to do that because you
14:00 get to see entrepreneurship from the
14:02 first row you get to see what it's like
14:05 um of what business aspect what um you
14:08 know how do you do that how much admin
14:10 do you need to carry and even if you're
14:12 just a fly on the wall You're Gonna
14:14 Learn so many skills that are quite
14:16 diverse and and that's the I think the
14:19 biggest trick about entrepreneurship is
14:21 like the the for me
14:24 uh everyone when they think about the
14:26 word Innovation they think that it's
14:28 something entirely novel yet for me
14:33 um I don't know of a single thing that
14:35 just someone came up with that had no
14:38 prior grounds everything is about
14:40 putting two or more things in together
14:44 so studying many different things
14:47 understanding a little bit about
14:49 business understanding a little bit
14:52 um product and how to make that product
14:54 understanding uh whatever it is that our
14:58 drivers from that I think is important
15:01 and that's not to say that University
15:03 can't do that and it can't be helpful to
15:06 learning sales and the theory of it Etc
15:09 but I think that there is many other
15:11 paths you could take that may even if
15:17 um you know if you have enough grits and
15:19 kind of like are able to put yourself in
15:21 a situation where you can get in front
15:23 of the right person start working for
15:25 them so much is in life is around people
15:29 believing in you and and giving you the
15:33 right place to grow
15:35 um and and and it's really serendipitous
15:39 um and and I'm certainly a product of
15:42 all that so I I think it is not right or
15:44 wrong it's just I dislike how we're
15:47 talking about it as it is the way or
15:50 um you know it's not the way and it's
15:52 like no I think it's more like it works
15:54 sometimes for certain individuals and
15:57 then for other individuals it is not the
15:59 best use of their time and there are
16:01 other paths you can take but educating
16:04 yourself even if that's outside of a
16:07 university and getting a degree concept
16:09 that I think is invaluable and it's the
16:12 most important thing you can be doing as
16:14 a young individual about anything you're
16:18 I think that's one of the big
16:19 misconceptions people have about me when
16:20 they hear I dropped out of University
16:21 they think I don't like education yeah
16:23 no no no no no yeah I spend all day like
16:25 all night till 2am learning about
16:27 rockets and Ai and all that stuff I'm a
16:29 self-educated but the institution of
16:31 Education that is University for me I
16:34 just couldn't stay awake yeah in that
16:36 experience same here but for another
16:38 person it is exactly what they they need
16:41 because they may not even know what
16:43 they're interested in and they feel like
16:45 I want to have a foundation that gives
16:47 me a broad base so again if a Masters of
16:51 Science degree if if you know you want
16:54 to be an engineer but you're not
16:56 what type of engineer it's a very broad
16:59 Foundation that will teach you Elemental
17:01 skills that you probably will use at
17:05 some point in time I'm not saying you
17:07 can't go outside of that realm too but
17:12 um and if you're wired that way you do
17:13 well in that type of environment great
17:16 and there's certain types of people that
17:21 people come up to me and ask me this
17:23 question about what I should be doing
17:24 with my life at that early stage the
17:26 advice I've started to give and I want
17:28 to check how you how you would change or
17:31 add alter this advice is to try and go
17:33 and join us startup so just for context
17:36 I'm talking about people that want to be
17:37 entrepreneurs here yeah to try and go
17:39 and join a startup that's doing
17:41 something at the very Cutting Edge
17:43 of the world or a wave that's currently
17:45 coming into Shore so I would say the
17:46 young kids like go and join an AI
17:48 startup and the reason I say startup is
17:50 because you're going to be closer to the
17:53 decision making you're going to learn
17:54 more you can have more exposure than
17:56 like if you went and worked I know at
17:58 Google or something sure
17:59 um and also it's the cheapest way to
18:01 fail when you're young right like you
18:02 can observe the company fall into the
18:04 graveyard yeah without there being a
18:06 huge cost to you yeah
18:08 I I would agree I mean I I think that is
18:14 uh opportunity uh to do that
18:17 um but again I've seen other paths work
18:19 too I've seen people uh join bigger
18:22 companies and move around inside of that
18:27 um get a super valuable skills
18:30 um and then eventually
18:32 um kind of break out as an entrepreneur
18:34 as well and maybe you wanted to save up
18:38 some money and obviously if you're doing
18:40 a little bit of a bigger company you're
18:42 able to do that and prioritize doing
18:45 both and then you know once you have
18:46 that kind of Nest Egg of sorts you can
18:49 then break out and so I I don't know I
18:52 it's like the I used to think
18:56 um and you and I we were talking about
18:57 this before I used to think that you
18:59 know hey I've got all this advice I'm
19:01 gonna just gonna give it and the more
19:02 and more I on a personal basis I'm not
19:05 sure I'm in a great position to give
19:07 advice on many things
19:09 um and and so I I try to stay away from
19:12 it I can't help myself when I feel like
19:15 people are doing it but I try to not do
19:20 um it is actually something I'm deeply
19:21 conscious about because I don't think
19:23 that there's one path in life I think
19:25 that there are many paths in life
19:27 and of course there are really bad ones
19:32 some some of the more amazing life
19:35 stories aren't the obvious ones uh it is
19:38 not the people even doing the sort of
19:40 hey I joined the startup or I did this
19:42 and that it may be the person who spent
19:44 um started like life in a lab to only
19:48 get so frustrated in the end that they
19:51 breaking out and then forming a company
19:53 because no one else wanted to do the
19:55 idea that they had in mind or maybe the
19:59 person who uh was the least likely to
20:02 solve that problem but had really been
20:05 spending all this time thinking about it
20:06 and developed this really odd skill
20:10 while doing their normal day job that
20:12 then turn out to be really useful to
20:14 solving this particular problem
20:16 I find it incredibly fascinating that
20:19 when we look at the back end of spotify
20:21 and apple and our audio channels the
20:23 majority of people that watch this
20:24 podcast haven't yet hit the follow
20:26 button or the Subscribe button wherever
20:28 you're listening to this I would like to
20:30 make a deal with you if you could do me
20:31 a huge favor and hit that subscribe
20:33 button I will work tirelessly from now
20:35 until forever to make the show better
20:37 and better and better and better I can't
20:39 tell you how much it helps when you hit
20:40 that subscribe button the show gets
20:41 bigger which means we can expand the
20:43 production bring in all the guests you
20:45 want to see and continue to doing this
20:46 thing we love if you could do me that
20:48 small favor and hit the follow button
20:49 wherever you're listening to this that
20:51 would mean the world to me that is the
20:52 only favor I will ever ask you thank you
20:54 so much for your time back to this
20:55 episode and going back to that first
20:58 company that was acquired at vertigo
21:01 after that was acquired um I read that
21:03 you retired at 23. yeah I'm guessing
21:08 enough money to retire yep and you're 23
21:12 which is in 2006 and you're a retired
21:14 man living what one can only describe as
21:18 any 23 year old's dream yeah lots of
21:22 money guessing there was some champagne
21:24 there I think there was a red Ferrari
21:27 how was that for you
21:29 it was amazing no no all jokes aside I
21:34 grew up and as I said I was kind of like
21:36 always socially accepted but didn't feel
21:38 like it belonged anywhere and um
21:43 um I never had an easy time with girls
21:47 um not a bad time just not as as good as
21:51 if I was widely successful in music or
21:54 widely successful in sports or any of
21:55 that stuff and I kind of had odd
21:58 interests because I kept as I said kind
22:01 of moving from group to group
22:03 um and so I had this idea in my head
22:07 um that I wanted to you know be
22:10 financially independent
22:12 um I wanted I thought that once I got to
22:15 that point I would start living life and
22:22 I would be more socially accepted and I
22:25 would find my tribe and it's
22:27 embarrassing to talk about it now
22:31 um you know that was really what I
22:32 thought so I thought that if I was lucky
22:36 and worked really hard I might be able
22:38 to retire in my 40s
22:40 if I work really hard but you know 50s
22:45 um so you know getting to that point
22:48 when I was 22 actually not 23 it was
22:52 just mind-boggling to me and
22:54 um I had that Financial Target in mind
22:58 um and I thought well once I hit that
23:00 I'm just gonna like you know do
23:02 something else and and so as you said I
23:04 kind of like started frequenting all the
23:06 night clubs uh bought a sports car
23:10 um try to get the girls I could never
23:13 realizing that yes I could get them
23:16 um but for all the wrong reasons and
23:18 they didn't really care about me
23:20 um and it was kind of a hollowing thing
23:22 because it was this kind of oh was this
23:24 what I worked for for such a long period
23:29 um only to find out that
23:31 um you know it was quite depressing
23:33 honestly I had all these new friends
23:34 that weren't really great friends at all
23:38 um luckily I was able to keep my old
23:39 friends as well but I realized that this
23:42 thing I thought I wanted uh I just
23:44 didn't want at all and um what was the
23:48 when we say realize there's typically
23:50 symptoms psychological symptoms or
23:53 um no I I realized that because I I'm
23:57 um you know I started getting all these
23:59 phone calls from people
24:01 um asking me to come out on Friday
24:03 evening since Saturday evenings
24:05 uh and I just I was just empty I just
24:09 had no energy to do that
24:12 um and I thought to myself oh this is
24:13 odd because the old me thought this was
24:16 what life was all about and I had had
24:19 girls call me and like hey you should
24:21 really come out we miss you all of that
24:23 stuff and I realized that I just didn't
24:25 care and had um I thought that that was
24:28 you know this magical moment and in fact
24:33 um you know putting on my computer or
24:36 was kind of yeah this is more me and so
24:41 something on the back of my head started
24:42 forming around like who am I why do I
24:46 care about it and it's it's actually in
24:48 that process I met my co-founder because
24:50 he was the founder of trade doubler
24:52 and uh who uh bought my uh company and
24:56 he too it kind of the company had ipo'd
24:59 he got kicked out of the company he he
25:02 was like a 100 times more wealthier than
25:05 I was like he he had like the biggest
25:07 success in Tech Sweden at the time and
25:11 had everything going for him but he
25:13 didn't know what to do with life and so
25:15 that was kind of how we bonded
25:17 um and um you know we were watching like
25:20 old Godfather movies eating crisps
25:23 um and and talking about what to do in
25:26 life uh and and that was like a real
25:29 friendship moment a real Turning Point
25:34 um the same thing that I saw and uh
25:38 um you know that was when I realized
25:41 that I've been approaching this all
25:42 wrong uh in fact I always loved working
25:45 it was never about money
25:48 um I always liked learning
25:50 um and I would pay to go learn for
25:52 someone rather than getting paid for it
25:54 and but at the same time I thought work
25:58 should be hard that was the thing that I
26:00 had programmed into me so work has to be
26:03 clearly something you not don't enjoy
26:07 um so I thought well what if you change
26:09 all of these parameters what if you
26:10 create an environment where you can come
26:13 in and learn from really smart people
26:15 all the time what if you can work on
26:17 something you actually care about
26:18 opposed to something that makes money
26:20 what if you could have a lot of fun
26:23 while doing it and not take it too
26:27 and we started talking and we were
26:30 balancing ideas and marked and my
26:33 co-founder was like asking me like Well
26:35 if you really could pick anything like
26:37 what what would you pick and I I'm I
26:42 um you know I'd probably pick music but
26:45 that's a terrible idea uh and he said
26:47 well why is that a terrible idea and I
26:49 said well it's a terrible idea because
26:51 you know the industry's going down the
26:53 drains it just doesn't work it's piracy
26:56 it's all of these reasons and he said
26:58 okay but but if one would fix it how
27:01 would one do well it can kind of stupid
27:03 they're trying to regulate it
27:05 clearly you need to build a better
27:06 product that's the only thing that's
27:08 going to work is they said okay well how
27:10 are you going to do that and it's like
27:11 well I don't know but maybe you could do
27:13 this or that okay well how would that
27:15 work uh it's like well I don't know but
27:18 maybe you could do this and that and how
27:20 would you make money well I I think
27:22 maybe you could pay out based on how
27:25 much people were listening I don't know
27:27 and then literally after going through
27:30 why not uh 100 times I started realizing
27:34 that yeah why not and why not give this
27:37 a shot and I told him from the beginning
27:40 you know uh that um hey this is probably
27:43 gonna lose us a lot of money I have a
27:46 hard time seeing this ever being a
27:47 sustainable business
27:50 but I'm in let's do this and it's a
27:54 um and while I was hesitating for some
27:56 reason he wasn't uh so he was like this
27:59 seems fun let's do it and that gave me
28:02 enough confidence where I kind of had
28:04 found a new purpose again and instantly
28:07 I stopped responding to all the people
28:09 who were trying to get me out in the
28:10 evenings and I was like well I got
28:12 something to do and then I went back to
28:15 work again and it was like
28:17 pretty much a week from that moment
28:20 where I felt like I'm happy again I
28:23 haven't felt this happy for
28:25 you know the better part of a year
28:26 because it was about a year when I was
28:28 going through this transition of of just
28:30 having fun being retired
28:33 um first month was fun six months in
28:36 depressing uh nine months in am I ever
28:39 gonna get out of this depression to then
28:42 count of a year in finding something
28:44 else that I truly look forward to that
28:50 um and I honestly did not think we would
28:52 succeed but if we succeed I knew it was
28:54 going to be a big thing
28:56 something really interesting there that
28:58 I could relate to a lot was this idea
28:59 that you had a hypothesis about your
29:03 happiness that had to fail you
29:05 to know that it was not a valid
29:09 hypothesis about happiness and there's
29:11 so many people obviously I mean there's
29:13 I assume it's more than half the
29:15 population are currently pursuing a
29:17 hypothesis they have about what will
29:18 make them happy that probably and this
29:21 is the thing I always wonder is does it
29:22 have to fail them for them to know that
29:24 that's not the right pursuit in my case
29:26 it did had to fail me yeah I had to feel
29:28 the anti-climax and then I had to go and
29:30 buy the big house and then was there for
29:32 nine months and got out of it as quick
29:33 as I could and bought the car and then
29:35 got rid of the car and then just moved
29:37 as close to the office as I could in a
29:39 one bedroom studio apartment yeah yeah
29:40 but for a lot of people I'm like is
29:42 there a way for them not for it for them
29:44 not to have to go all that way and have
29:45 it fail them well I I think that there's
29:48 certain life experiences
29:50 um uh that you can't learn from other
29:53 people you just have to live live it and
29:56 I think it's not so much about sort of
29:58 the monetary thing or the status thing
30:01 um although I would probably say status
30:03 whether or not you should really seek it
30:07 I think is one of those things that we
30:09 all have to go through I think everyone
30:10 can talk about it don't seek attention
30:12 don't seek Fame don't seek all of these
30:14 things but we're we're human beings we
30:16 want to be well liked by other people
30:18 um and so I think that is probably one
30:21 of them but but in general I think the
30:23 further away it is from anything you
30:24 know and can relate to I think
30:29 we have to experience parts of it so you
30:32 know one one of the most amazing thing
30:34 that I get to do these days for my
30:39 um from like back when is I take them on
30:42 these crazy experiences uh right you
30:44 know I'm I'm fortunate enough that I get
30:46 to see some of the coolest people in the
30:49 world whether it's musicians but
30:50 athletes and and so on
30:53 um that they're able to get a glimpse of
30:57 my life uh and I love it because
31:00 um you know they're looking at it with
31:02 this kind of child shy like imagination
31:04 and wonder about some some things that
31:06 I'm going through but I also see the
31:08 other side when they're like isn't
31:10 really that much work wow I would never
31:13 want to do this and it's it's quite
31:17 um because as we started out saying they
31:19 have this idea of what the life is so I
31:22 kind of like bringing them along on the
31:24 journey where they get to see it and
31:27 um you can see that there are aspects of
31:29 it that they like and then other aspects
31:31 that they would never ever want to get
31:35 um you know I think it might be possible
31:37 to kind of simulate that experience
31:40 um but I think you have to experience
31:43 it's very much up close uh certainly
31:46 when you're talking about wealth and if
31:48 you come from having none I think almost
31:50 everyone then would instantly need to
31:53 experience a little bit of it to at
31:55 least kind of understand whether that's
31:57 important or not especially if you get
31:59 it like we both did probably in our 20s
32:02 and so on had a had I worked up until my
32:06 40s I may have kind of realized hey this
32:08 isn't life I'm I'm having children I'm
32:11 having my wife this is amazing I got
32:13 this experience being a single guy
32:15 trying to chase girls and and all I'd
32:18 seen was on MTV how all of the rappers
32:21 were throwing around money and uh having
32:25 20 or 30 girls at the nightclub and and
32:28 you know hey I wanted that too
32:31 one thing I'm really interested in is
32:32 you said you got to nine months and you
32:33 were depressed nine months after the
32:35 sale there are so many people now and
32:37 this is why I asked about what the
32:38 symptoms of that were it's hard to know
32:40 yeah when we're drifting down the wrong
32:42 path because it creeps up on us like a
32:44 frog and a frying pan yeah I I remember
32:46 a time working seven days a week and
32:48 this feeling in my chest if I would
32:49 describe it as like a
32:51 a subtle growing emptiness
32:54 and that was for me in hindsight I was
32:56 lonely yep and I didn't know I was yeah
32:58 so those symptoms that you encountered
33:03 in a way that someone might relate to
33:04 them what were those feelings
33:08 um I I think my entire life as I
33:11 mentioned I I've been struggling to fit
33:15 and I think it's something we probably
33:17 share and have in common and I somehow
33:20 thought that this would help and
33:23 um when the situation was new
33:26 um it did feel like I found my new tribe
33:28 and it did feel like they
33:32 um you know this early excitement
33:33 everyone's calling you everyone wants
33:35 you to be part of something that you're
33:37 before may not have been able to enjoy
33:41 and may not go get those phone calls and
33:43 get made out of get into the hottest
33:45 nightclubs in in the club promoters like
33:48 putting you on the list plus 10 and all
33:50 that stuff this social currency so it
33:53 was thrilling it was absolutely amazing
33:55 and and it truly was this kind of like
33:59 wow I've made it kind of feeling
34:05 um after you experience the tenth time
34:07 and I somehow had this idea that it
34:11 would translate into this continuous
34:13 feeling of that thing or translate into
34:16 something more meaningful I I sort of
34:18 realized that no wait a minute it's the
34:20 same experience again but it's lost a
34:23 little bit of a charm and I started now
34:25 getting the hangarounds that we're
34:27 trying to get in with me because you
34:29 know they realized that maybe I would
34:32 um I was seeing people at the table come
34:35 up and grab a glass and then run away
34:37 all of that kind of thing and I I it's
34:42 slowly sort of dawned upon me that you
34:45 could replace me by just anyone else
34:51 um the money and the connection that I
34:54 had at that time thereby the status and
34:57 it really would matter
34:59 um you know and and
35:01 uh you know I I was I was listening to I
35:05 think it's his name is Morgan household
35:07 um the author who talks about psychology
35:09 of money and he kind of talked about it
35:11 the the the Ferrari syndrome and he
35:14 basically describes that uh everyone uh
35:17 who aspires to buy a Ferrari
35:20 um thinks of themselves and saying oh
35:21 well one day when I'm in this Ferrari
35:23 everyone's gonna look at this Ferrari
35:25 and they're gonna be amazed with me yet
35:27 what we all do is we look at the Ferrari
35:30 and we want to sit there we actually
35:31 don't care about the individual that's
35:32 currently sitting in there so this kind
35:36 um you know Paradox
35:37 um so to speak and and that's very much
35:39 how I felt about my life and as you're
35:42 right right it you push that to the side
35:45 and you say well surely this you know
35:47 this is fun and you have all these other
35:48 people coming out and then you kind of
35:50 bury it and then it keeps coming up and
35:52 then it comes up again and then it comes
35:54 up more and more and more and I didn't
35:57 realize what it was at first because I
35:59 was like surely I'm just being foolish
36:01 this is this is life and everyone was
36:03 rewarding me on the outside too saying
36:06 what in life you live this is amazing
36:08 how cool is not to be retired and just
36:11 not having to do anything
36:14 but I wasn't learning and I wasn't
36:16 forming genuine connections with people
36:20 um I was just being and uh yes I got
36:23 status but I realized I never did
36:25 anything for status and I actually
36:27 didn't care in the end uh from being
36:30 status I cared about belonging but not
36:33 I wanted to be in another group that
36:36 cared about me for being me
36:39 and you must have learned a lot now in
36:41 hindsight about what the core components
36:43 of you being sufficiently happy are
36:46 you've used a few of them there like
36:48 learning was one of them belonging
36:51 what are the other core components of
36:53 you think for someone just it's easier
36:55 to just talk about ourselves here yeah
36:57 for you to be stable
37:05 that I also need to be live by be
37:10 allowed to be by myself
37:13 um so I used to in Prior relationships
37:16 um before meeting my wife I used to
37:19 think you know your relationship you
37:21 constantly need to do something with the
37:22 other party and it was draining me
37:24 and uh I used to think there was
37:27 something wrong with me because I wanted
37:29 to be by myself for most of the time
37:33 um and being comfortable with that I am
37:37 that way that I thrive on loneliness not
37:42 all the time because I can feel lonely
37:46 um for quite a lot of time perhaps more
37:48 so than most normal people like being
37:52 um I'm I'm just finding myself in that
37:57 um place where I just pursue whatever
38:01 um it's top of mind for me I am sort of
38:03 in my own thoughts uh wandering dreaming
38:10 um that's been very important too
38:11 because I used to think there was
38:13 something wrong with that yeah and then
38:15 my wife luckily she's kind of the same
38:17 she does her thing and I do mind thing
38:19 and we love that we can do stuff with
38:22 each other but we're also perfectly
38:23 happy doing things on our own
38:26 um and um and that kind of taught me
38:29 also quite a lot about myself
38:32 in that because again we are social
38:35 animals uh and I am too by the way I
38:38 um hanging out with my friends but I
38:40 also love being by myself so I think
38:42 having a positive impact
38:45 um not just on myself I have to feel
38:47 good about what I'm doing and know that
38:51 um being able to learn uh being able to
38:54 have fun while doing it and
38:57 um then be in an environment where I can
39:00 be lonely and then can come back without
39:03 that being sort of socially awkward uh
39:06 like one of my favorite things that I
39:07 can do with my close friends
39:10 is I can literally uh let's say I would
39:12 host a dinner I could host the dinner
39:15 and I get an idea it's very uncommon but
39:19 I'll get an idea and I will walk away
39:20 and disappear for an hour and I'll come
39:24 um and uh that's like something that's
39:26 kind of socially unacceptable in most
39:28 situations I do realize that so I I try
39:30 to not do that if I'm I'm with um you
39:33 know strangers because they wouldn't
39:35 understand they wouldn't won't
39:37 understand but my real friends
39:39 um they know that about me and they're
39:41 like totally cool so they just hang out
39:43 and then when I come back I love that
39:45 they're there and I love that they're
39:47 hanging out with my kids or hanging out
39:49 with my wife and doing other stuff and
39:52 just being comfortable in in that that
39:54 for me is like a perfect dinner is one
39:57 where I would be social I would get an
40:02 think about it for a moment get collect
40:05 my thoughts get energy write it down and
40:08 filled with energy from that and then
40:11 you know continue the conversation uh
40:14 that's a great example of something I
40:16 love doing so that's actually happened
40:18 where you've been at a dinner party with
40:19 friends and then you've had an idea and
40:20 you've left you've and then you've my
40:23 thing there is if I left so the first
40:25 thing is I'm not sure my girlfriend
40:26 would be very happy yeah she understands
40:29 that I'm like that she understands that
40:30 I love being alone she understands that
40:32 I get ideas at predictable times and
40:34 that idea might suck me away she
40:36 probably wouldn't be that happy
40:37 um about it probably need to have a
40:39 conversation about that
40:40 um but also if I went away I would need
40:42 to start working on the idea because I'd
40:43 get so energized about the thing
40:46 that I then spend all night like sorry
40:50 that happens by the way it happens that
40:52 I like finished halfway through the
40:54 dinner and just disappear don't come
40:55 back to I would say my friends usually
40:59 uh even my close friends are like uh hey
41:02 we came to hang out with you not like to
41:04 see you for half an hour and then you're
41:05 disappearing but it happens
41:09 um but I can obviously equally be there
41:12 for all the dinner too
41:13 um and and yeah I mean it is one of the
41:16 social Oddities I think that I do
41:19 um with my close friends
41:21 um and I again I I know it's highly
41:25 socially unacceptable in most situations
41:28 but but if you really think about it as
41:31 an introvert as I said I usually thrive
41:34 on I need social elements but I get most
41:37 of my energy being by myself all right
41:40 and and so then from an energy balance
41:43 uh perspective being with people it
41:47 gives me a lot of ideas it's great but
41:49 it also empties my energy Reserve then
41:51 going away filling them up again coming
41:54 back it is probably the ideal way for me
41:56 if you ask me like what would a perfect
41:58 night look like it would probably be
42:02 how do you then balance
42:04 romance and relationships and my partner
42:07 her I think her attachment style in her
42:09 love language is like quality time
42:11 so I often violate that love language
42:14 because of what you've just described
42:16 yeah we could be Saturday in a park and
42:19 then I think about something or get an
42:20 email and then I'm off away on my own
42:24 yeah I mean that's certainly the risk
42:26 um again I'm I'm fortunate enough that
42:29 my wife was kind of very similar to me
42:31 in that regard so she too leaves uh
42:34 dinners and has her ideas and and uh you
42:38 know do that so I think we're we're more
42:40 similar we try to make sure that one of
42:43 us stay because it gets very awkward
42:47 um but but if you're both like that do
42:48 you have to have rules though for when
42:49 you do yeah yeah well that's the thing
42:52 that's that's actually the harder thing
42:54 for us is finding that quality time so I
42:57 mean there's two parts you can either
42:58 have I I like the faults so you can have
43:02 like the default this we spend time
43:03 together or the default is we're in a
43:05 relationship but we don't spend time
43:07 together and so you have to make time
43:09 where you're actively finding something
43:11 you both are interested in and you want
43:14 to spend time on together
43:15 and I think we're more that and I think
43:17 most people probably with kids would
43:19 recognize that because the kids come
43:21 first in the relationship anyway so your
43:23 relationship to your significant other
43:26 um is probably you know uh the second
43:29 priority in that relationship and in
43:31 your wants to kids uh are the first so I
43:34 don't think that's uncommon but I think
43:35 changing that default could be really
43:39 um and again if it's something that's
43:40 really important to my wife of course
43:42 I'm going to be present uh she's really
43:44 into horse riding I'm not but I know it
43:48 matters to her greatly so not only will
43:51 I try to speak to her every morning when
43:54 she wants to talk about that but I also
43:57 show up for her competitions or I show
43:59 up for important practices that she has
44:05 um there are aspects of the horsing
44:07 thing where we can Bond and and have
44:11 great quality time as well as it is she
44:14 loves hearing about my entire Muriel and
44:16 diverse as well and and we find quality
44:19 time through that and then we have date
44:21 nights like post couples do and uh yeah
44:25 I mean if you're at the restaurant you
44:26 don't just really walk up and get away
44:29 of course you're gonna spend that
44:30 quality time as well
44:34 when I heard the Spotify story I
44:38 I really wanted to meet you because
44:42 I consider myself to be ambitious but
44:44 there are some challenges that I would
44:45 just view as impossible
44:47 and at the time when
44:49 you consider how the music industry was
44:52 that it's ran by these big record labels
44:54 predominantly and they own the music
44:56 to be a young kid from Sweden
45:01 and believe that you could change that
45:03 for me is a special type of delusion
45:06 like it's like yeah it's just an
45:09 impossible task it's what I just would
45:10 have thought okay some things are the
45:11 way they are they're immovable objects
45:13 that is one of them yeah why didn't you
45:15 think that was a impossible task
45:20 well I I think for several reasons but I
45:23 think that is the beautiful narrative
45:25 team of an entrepreneur as well right
45:28 we move mountains I'm sure Elon was you
45:33 know even more insurmountable thing
45:35 electric cars and it hadn't been a
45:37 successful car companies for uh I think
45:39 a century or something
45:41 um or at least you know many many
45:44 decades in the US and he managed to do
45:46 that so I think it's it's part illusion
45:52 um but but the other part I think
45:54 um also is that what I realized is
45:58 for even committing to this idea so the
46:02 I probably spent 500 hours
46:06 learning about this problem
46:08 and the scarcest resource we have in the
46:13 world today by far is time
46:15 and when you have high quality people
46:18 that spend thousands of hours on a
46:21 problem you find new Solutions
46:25 and so the biggest thing for Humanity I
46:28 believe is simply that I believe we're
46:30 capable of doing practically anything
46:34 there aren't that many people that can
46:38 see these multi-dimensional things with
46:41 that right experience that happens to me
46:43 at that right time they're spending
46:44 thousands of hours of trying to needle
46:47 in a haystack see that opportunity
46:49 through that very very tiny prism
46:54 um even today when I think about it some
46:57 of my other businesses it kind of worked
46:59 the same way so I started a healthcare
47:01 business about five years ago but I was
47:06 I think the first interview when I
47:08 mentioned it was in 2009
47:12 um and I started the company five years
47:14 ago uh 2018 so I I probably spent a
47:18 decade thinking about this problem
47:21 um and I couldn't figure out a solution
47:26 you started the company in 2008 no no I
47:28 started the company the Healthcare
47:30 company in 2018 18. but I started
47:33 thinking about it 2008. oh okay
47:35 um so I have a notebook with all my
47:37 crazy ideas most of them amount to
47:39 nothing uh quite often someone else
47:42 comes along and does them and I'm happy
47:46 um but every now and then nothing
47:48 happens for a great period of time and I
47:51 kind of feel that itch to maybe make a
47:54 difference myself and I and I say that
47:57 because like the realization there was
48:00 I'd spend up until that point thousands
48:03 of hours understanding the Healthcare
48:04 System why it is for the way it is the
48:06 incentive schemes and the what the NHS
48:09 is doing and what someone else is doing
48:11 and the Public Health Care System
48:13 Insurance business direct to Consumer
48:16 things the the longevity curves of human
48:18 beings the disease groups the costs
48:20 curves like all of those aspects um
48:23 about it similar to how you're
48:24 describing looking at Rockets
48:27 um but you know imagine you're spending
48:29 a thousand hours a rocket not just kind
48:31 of casually researching it I am sure you
48:34 will find novel ways of how to attack
48:36 the problem it may not be because you
48:39 know if you're not a physicist you may
48:42 not come up with the next rocket engine
48:45 but you may find another twist uh too on
48:49 how to attack this problem
48:51 and I don't really think it comes down
48:52 to that and so uh in the space of music
48:55 I don't know anything about the music
48:57 industry going into it
49:00 um but I would argue a few years into it
49:02 I was probably one of the most foremost
49:04 experts on copyright in the world around
49:07 like the dmca and um what the U.S
49:10 copyright regime looked like and what
49:12 what um other regimes look like and how
49:16 um you know performance rights societies
49:17 label rights and what color rights
49:19 mechanical rights performing rights uh
49:22 all of those different aspects the all
49:24 the different code is RC numbers ISBN
49:28 numbers and how they related and so on
49:30 and so forth and and um
49:33 um you know I find like people either
49:35 get too modeled in on the details and
49:37 don't see the bigger picture or they
49:40 stay two top level pictures to really
49:42 see the new ones and the question is how
49:44 do you dive deep enough where you see it
49:46 and figure out which problems to solve
49:51 um and and I was at that point
49:54 by probably 2007 having spent a year on
49:58 Spotify but the team was super small so
50:01 it really wasn't a big commits at that
50:02 time and I wasn't sure at that time but
50:05 then I realized that hey this is
50:07 actually possible because we'd built the
50:10 product that showcased the technology of
50:13 what we're doing and it felt like if you
50:15 had all the worst music on your hard
50:18 so then the real problem ended up being
50:20 can we get the music industry to accept
50:23 this and to that I had no idea but I
50:26 felt like this is so obviously if this
50:29 came out in the marketplace what
50:31 consumers would ask for now the only
50:34 question is is the music industry going
50:36 to allow this and that took me another
50:38 year and a half 18 months to learn the
50:42 answer and it was completely binary we
50:44 almost died probably four times in that
50:48 process and ran out of money and a
50:50 record company saying no no this is
50:52 never gonna happen until eventually one
50:54 day the Stars aligned and we were able
50:57 to launch but that was not a given but
51:00 it felt like the right bet to make
51:04 you know it was a binary outcome either
51:06 we'd fail the price wasn't all too bad
51:09 if we would succeed it was clearly so
51:12 that at least this would resonate very
51:14 well with consumers
51:16 was there any moments where you thought
51:19 that it wasn't going to happen I.E
51:20 conversations you had with record labels
51:21 where someone very high up says
51:23 absolutely no way I met many times uh I
51:27 um probably once every month or two over
51:30 a two year period I thought that this
51:33 probably won't pan out uh and it was
51:35 incredibly demoralizing I I usually joke
51:37 but like in the beginning of that
51:39 process I had hair and then in the end
51:41 of it I lost all of the hair I probably
51:44 gained 30 pounds in weight during that
51:51 um but through it all my co-founder
51:53 Martin uh probably a factor of just who
51:57 he is as an individual but also probably
51:58 because he didn't participate in these
52:00 meetings uh kept being really upbeat
52:06 um you know amazing support and so don't
52:08 worry about it you're gonna figure it
52:10 out and you just kept believing in me
52:12 and then he also said a few times you
52:14 know when that wasn't enough he said
52:16 don't worry about it we'll figure out
52:17 something else if this doesn't work out
52:19 it felt to me like I always had a safety
52:21 net and it was just the amount the push
52:24 that I needed to do this
52:26 um and again talking about not giving
52:28 advice but to the advice that I do give
52:30 to other people is to share the burden
52:32 with someone it is so important and I
52:35 know I get most of the credits
52:38 for Spotify but it is really a team
52:41 effort uh from the gustavs and Alex and
52:43 all those people but then also in the
52:45 early days from uh Martin in believing
52:49 in me uh and and knowing uh or this kind
52:53 of Supernatural ability that I'm gonna
52:55 pull it off somehow
52:57 I must have told you a story which I
52:59 guess has stayed with you about
53:00 perseverance and the power of
53:02 perseverance the double-edged sword to
53:06 sometimes it's right to quit as well
53:07 yeah and knowing when to persevere and
53:10 knowing when you're just wasting your
53:11 time which is as you said the most
53:12 important currency of all yeah you know
53:16 that's where you know art meets science
53:19 um there is no scientific answer because
53:22 it depends it's an art to know uh when
53:25 something is futile and when something
53:28 is worth doing but I call it that sort
53:30 of binary outcome but uh with uneven
53:33 distribution right so if you think about
53:37 even if it's 50 50 whether you succeed
53:40 but on the upside you can win a lot more
53:42 than you can lose and all you can really
53:44 lose is one time but the upside maybe a
53:47 it's probably worth
53:50 uh persuading obviously it's that's the
53:52 science part the art thing is okay well
53:54 is it really hundred times is it 10
53:56 times and and have I already lost but
53:59 I'm just not aware of it
54:01 um that's the art and also in that I
54:03 hear an optimism bias from two
54:05 the the constant now we'll figure it out
54:07 we'll figure it out we'll figure it out
54:08 how important do you think that is
54:11 especially you know you hire a lot of
54:12 people is that something you're like
54:13 looking for in the people that you work
54:15 with that bias towards will figure it
54:18 um I think again it depends on the road
54:20 you're hiring for you need a team uh I
54:23 think it's really important that you
54:24 just don't surround yourself with just
54:26 yes people or optimists you need the
54:29 naysayer in the room as well you need
54:31 the people who will balance it out and
54:33 be the one who says um I'm not sure this
54:36 is going to work out
54:38 um and and so often I think that's the
54:41 that's the important part we keep
54:43 talking about it over the CFO or sales
54:45 people but again you can have a deal
54:48 making CFO and uh salesperson that's
54:51 happy go lucky it may not be a great
54:54 combo you may want the the CFO to be
54:57 skeptical about the sales Pipeline and a
55:00 happy-go-lucky salesperson or the
55:02 inverse maybe a like really diligent
55:05 that and a CFO that maybe sort of like
55:07 don't worry about it we will sort it out
55:10 um but I but I think so much about that
55:12 is the subtleties we have we don't have
55:14 a perfect model of the world
55:17 um and uh the more experience I have
55:20 it's the cheesy thing to say but the
55:22 less I realized that I actually know and
55:25 so much of this are actually down in the
55:27 nuances and most people are
55:29 um above the nuances don't really
55:31 understand the issues well enough or too
55:33 bogged down in the details to understand
55:35 the bigger picture and and going that
55:38 sort of up and down that's sort of super
55:41 detail-oriented but also being able to
55:44 go up and see the big pictures that is
55:47 um and simplifying very complex Concepts
55:49 I think some of the most amazing
55:51 entrepreneurs in the world are experts
55:53 at and that is the superpower
55:56 and that is certainly one that I'm
56:00 um and work on but when you see it like
56:03 Steve Jobs when you take very complex
56:06 things and people say he didn't
56:07 understand engineering and Technical
56:10 problems it's not true yes he may not
56:12 have been an engineer he may not have
56:14 known how to write code but he certainly
56:16 could empathize with what um made an
56:19 amazing engineer tick empathize with
56:22 different Technical Solutions will have
56:24 different inputs and outputs and he
56:29 um he was brilliant in taking very
56:31 complex ideas and understanding how to
56:34 make that resonate for the everyday
56:36 these Tales I hear of you sort of being
56:38 outside record labels and waiting for
56:40 the CEO to come out so that you could
56:41 catch them or trying to cost I don't
56:44 know the assistant outside and asking
56:45 when the CEOs was coming outside so that
56:47 you could get a meeting with them yeah
56:49 are these Tales true
56:51 um as with many they're probably
56:53 exaggerated a little bit um where's the
56:55 truth uh well the the truth is that
56:58 certainly happened but it wasn't you
57:00 know I've heard uh people recounted us
57:02 that I slept outside of the the record
57:05 labels kind of in a sleeping bag that
57:07 that didn't happen uh that happened
57:09 another time in my career but it wasn't
57:11 um it didn't happen there but but it
57:14 certainly happened that I'd book A Week
57:15 a flight to New York with no meeting
57:17 booked uh with basically an open
57:20 calendar and about 20 phone calls a day
57:22 just trying to figure out a time to get
57:25 on this the schedule of a senior VP or a
57:31 that certainly happened and that taught
57:34 me another thing too which is that these
57:36 assistants like you better befriend them
57:38 because they are the keys to the kingdom
57:41 um and most people don't care about them
57:42 at all uh but they're very influential
57:45 they're very powerful
57:47 um and uh and and you know uh that was
57:51 hard in the beginning but then I
57:54 um they got to see me as an individual I
57:56 saw them as an individual and eventually
57:58 you know the this this is not uh we tend
58:01 to believe the world is more logical
58:03 than what it is but a lot of it is based
58:05 on relationships So eventually some of
58:07 them started taking a liking to me and
58:09 so when there was the opportunity and
58:12 they could prioritize 10 other things
58:13 for that CEO to do but I was there I was
58:16 friendly uh and easy to work with show
58:19 up with no moments notice even if you
58:21 know it was 20 minutes before finding
58:23 out about it I would show up
58:26 um and so I was I was easy to deal with
58:28 so take away all that complexity in
58:30 order to achieve the out outcome that I
58:32 wanted to do and sometimes that is as
58:34 simple as it is just be consistent be
58:37 the easiest person to deal with and
58:39 you'd be surprised how many problems it
58:42 did you invest your personal Capital
58:44 into starting Spotify because I I read
58:45 again that you'd spend pretty much all
58:47 of your personal wealth to start the
58:49 company yeah yeah I did uh so invested
58:52 not all of it but quite substantial
58:53 amounts of it uh and my co-founder
58:56 invested even more but he obviously had
58:58 a much larger sum of money
59:00 um from the beginning
59:02 um yeah so all in all I think we
59:05 invested about 10 million dollars uh
59:09 um by ourselves which was also crazy
59:11 because you know back then today 10
59:15 million into a startup just was it isn't
59:18 a big number many startups that have
59:20 done that before but doing that on a
59:22 seed stage uh back in 2007 uh that just
59:26 was unheard of it was usually 500k seed
59:30 check sums Etc what if it hadn't worked
59:32 out what would have been the personal
59:33 implications for you financially uh the
59:36 personal implications that I went from
59:38 not having to have a job to then
59:40 probably having to go back to having a
59:42 job so I basically took that security
59:45 that I built up that 22 I'm set for life
59:51 um in a moment's notice
59:57 um I I don't know what to say I think
01:00:00 from a purely logical point of view it
01:00:02 was probably a terrible decision but
01:00:05 betting on myself and betting on
01:00:07 yourself would probably be again uh I
01:00:10 say I should give advice but it is
01:00:12 probably the the best advice I could
01:00:15 give many people is is you know because
01:00:17 especially those that want to invest in
01:00:19 various startups Etc
01:00:21 but they may not have a lot of money and
01:00:23 then I will say well why don't you just
01:00:25 bet on yourself instead why don't you
01:00:27 just try to like work for one of these
01:00:29 startups like you said and and maybe
01:00:32 take a little bit more equity and a
01:00:33 little bit less pay and take out of your
01:00:35 cash instead because that way you
01:00:38 increase the likelihood hopefully if you
01:00:40 know you're good of the company being a
01:00:43 success and it just feels like the more
01:00:46 prudent thing to do and so I had a
01:00:48 sneaky feeling that that was the right
01:00:49 thing to do but investing as much
01:00:52 probably wasn't the smartest thing to do
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01:02:54 goes on to be I mean success is probably
01:02:57 an understatement I know the journey to
01:02:59 that success had multiple near-death
01:03:02 experiences to get there one of the key
01:03:04 things key moments I reflect on as a
01:03:06 Spotify customer
01:03:07 um is when Apple launched their
01:03:09 competing product Apple music in 2015 I
01:03:13 believe it was and there was lots of
01:03:15 Articles saying that this would be the
01:03:16 death of Spotify yeah I think I was even
01:03:18 concerned as a very loyal Spotify user
01:03:20 yeah I thought [ __ ] you know they have
01:03:22 all the phones yeah they have they're
01:03:23 kind of like the mafia they could just
01:03:25 squash you yeah most companies when
01:03:27 Apple comes into their territory
01:03:30 shaking their boots yeah what was it
01:03:32 like in your office that day when Apple
01:03:34 music launched a competing product you
01:03:37 know when you live in the thick of the
01:03:38 fire you're not concerned about the
01:03:40 things that everyone else is concerned
01:03:42 about I usually say public perception
01:03:45 lacks about six to 12 months what's
01:03:47 actually going on and and so in our case
01:03:50 we'd known that Apple's going to launch
01:03:52 something for probably the better part
01:03:55 because they have the Beats acquisition
01:03:57 beforehand and we were hearing all sorts
01:03:59 of rumors Etc about what it was so
01:04:01 absolutely you have to be worried when
01:04:03 one of the greatest companies on Earth
01:04:05 decides to compete with you so we were
01:04:07 concerned about it
01:04:09 um uh and we were kind of doubling down
01:04:11 on what our positioning was going to be
01:04:14 so you kind of like double and triple
01:04:15 checked whether or not um you know you
01:04:17 were deluding yourself into believing
01:04:19 things to be true and and so for
01:04:22 instance in our case one of the big
01:04:24 things we had a some strategic pillars
01:04:27 that we were focusing on one of them we
01:04:29 call ubiquity because we always knew
01:04:31 this would eventually be the case we we
01:04:34 thought that consumers would value the
01:04:36 ability to work across all devices and
01:04:39 all ecosystem and our bet would be that
01:04:43 any competitor we might have had would
01:04:46 actually focus on reinforcing their own
01:04:49 ecosystem and not care about all the
01:04:51 other stuff so the primary reason they
01:04:53 were into a music service would be to
01:04:56 make their own devices better not to
01:04:59 make the world's best music service
01:05:01 and um and so you know that's why we
01:05:04 made such an effort of integrating into
01:05:06 cars integrating into all sorts of weird
01:05:10 devices smart fridges whatever you might
01:05:12 think um and so so it was kind of like
01:05:15 reiterating that but I felt pretty good
01:05:17 about that position
01:05:19 um and going back
01:05:20 and then there's always this sort of
01:05:22 like what if they figured out something
01:05:24 that we just wouldn't have thought about
01:05:27 uh and I remember we were constantly
01:05:29 talking to the product teams about this
01:05:31 uh and like what what if they come up
01:05:34 with this and we're literally trying
01:05:35 this every game theorizing every
01:05:40 um but I think at the end of the day we
01:05:43 we kind of went through the Thousand
01:05:45 scenarios kind of thing we knew we'd
01:05:47 prepared as well as we could
01:05:51 um anticipated a certain type of product
01:05:54 there was this kind of one percent or
01:05:56 ten percent chance whatever you want to
01:05:58 Quantified as where it would just be
01:06:00 wrong and they'd come up with something
01:06:01 that widely superseded any of our
01:06:04 expectations but that very day
01:06:07 remember we'd been preparing for that
01:06:09 day for so long so the first reaction
01:06:11 was kind of them announcing it which we
01:06:14 expected them to do uh and then seeing
01:06:17 the walkthrough of the product and
01:06:18 realizing that okay well we prepared for
01:06:21 this we thought about this Etc and so
01:06:23 weirdly enough as the rest of the world
01:06:25 kind of like gasped for air
01:06:28 um we were thinking about it okay well
01:06:31 this was what we expected
01:06:34 um and back to that point distribution
01:06:36 was the amazing thing they hadn't come
01:06:38 up with something on the product side
01:06:39 that we just didn't anticipate but it
01:06:42 was really just about distribution and
01:06:44 there was nothing we could do to guard
01:06:45 ourselves against it but we felt like we
01:06:49 had a superior experience
01:06:51 um on the personalization side the fact
01:06:54 that you know if you have a Windows
01:06:57 machine and an iPhone
01:06:59 um Spotify would work but Apple music
01:07:03 um wouldn't at that time so there were
01:07:05 many of those things that we um I
01:07:08 thought had a better positioning than
01:07:09 they had I've long thought that I've
01:07:11 tried both I mean I've tried it when it
01:07:13 came out and I couldn't stick to it um
01:07:15 and I think me and my friends who are in
01:07:16 my music group we all concluded that the
01:07:19 personalization how Spotify understands
01:07:21 me yeah is really the thing it's hard to
01:07:23 know why you do what you do as a
01:07:24 consumer yeah but from analyzing it a
01:07:26 bit more deeply um it just felt like I'd
01:07:28 built there was a lot of investment I'd
01:07:30 done to my playlists and all those
01:07:31 things but Spotify just knew me better
01:07:33 it seems to have much more data than
01:07:36 um data on me and understands me and is
01:07:38 more of a bespoke solution to me than
01:07:40 Apple was and also the user experience
01:07:43 is not great and I just can't get past
01:07:45 that I just so I tried it and I bounced
01:07:48 I I just stuck with Spotify
01:07:51 Apple uh I use the word Matthew earlier
01:07:54 on a lot of people don't know this but
01:07:55 they take 30 revenues on pretty much
01:07:58 every new app in the store yeah they've
01:08:00 rejected your audio book app multiple
01:08:03 um there's a rumor going around that
01:08:05 they even delay how quickly you can
01:08:08 release new updates of your app and
01:08:10 delay how that reaches phones what's
01:08:12 your opinion on Apple and what they do
01:08:14 and how they conduct themselves well
01:08:18 um as a consumer uh let's start off with
01:08:20 apple is a fantastic company and they
01:08:23 make amazing products I really do
01:08:27 um I've been a Mac User since
01:08:30 I can't even remember probably late 90s
01:08:33 when I could first afford one
01:08:35 uh all the way to now and obviously use
01:08:38 the iPhone and Apple watches and all
01:08:40 that stuff so let's start with that and
01:08:41 I think that's hard to square then that
01:08:43 there's this other company that's
01:08:47 um focused on just
01:08:50 itself and constantly trying to do
01:08:54 things by itself and not working well
01:09:00 those are perhaps two different sides of
01:09:03 the same coin but
01:09:06 um you know the the way that manifests
01:09:11 um I think that it's a company in many
01:09:13 cases that still sees itself as an
01:09:15 underdog but don't realize that they
01:09:17 become Goliath and so many of the
01:09:19 tactics that made it the rebel kind of
01:09:22 thing are now stifling Innovation and
01:09:25 it's really hurting consumers it's a
01:09:27 great extent with the 30 you talked
01:09:29 about with the fact that you know
01:09:33 um or any developer if you don't pay the
01:09:36 30 you can't even speak to your
01:09:38 consumers it is kind of absurd
01:09:41 um so you know there there's a
01:09:44 um on the business side of Apple
01:09:47 um and and perhaps it's always been so I
01:09:50 don't know I never got the opportunity
01:09:52 to meet Steve Jobs but
01:09:56 where just from an ethos point of view
01:09:59 it's just not me
01:10:02 um I have a hard time squaring that with
01:10:05 me as the consumer and me as the
01:10:08 um and needless to say I I do believe
01:10:12 can and should play fair and I think it
01:10:14 would be way better for the world if
01:10:19 um that it would actually help them in
01:10:21 many regards to switch their tactics and
01:10:24 realize that they are the Goliath at
01:10:26 this point they're not David
01:10:30 one of the things I want to close on um
01:10:32 is your philosophy so I guess it's the
01:10:36 same answer because spotify's philosophy
01:10:38 towards what's made it successful will
01:10:39 probably be in many respects a
01:10:41 reflection of your philosophies towards
01:10:44 business and and
01:10:46 um more broadly towards life but when I
01:10:48 sit here and I think a lot of people
01:10:49 will sit here and say
01:10:52 there's clearly something unique about
01:10:53 you about the way you approach problem
01:10:55 solving problems life business all of
01:10:58 those things that has been
01:11:01 that has defined you and set you apart
01:11:03 are you aware of what that is what those
01:11:10 um no I don't think so but I think
01:11:12 you're right in that
01:11:14 um you know the the way I would describe
01:11:18 um to people you're right that it is
01:11:20 scary sometimes watching Spotify uh
01:11:24 trying to watch it from a distance and
01:11:25 not just be in it because sometimes it's
01:11:28 doing things where I'm like
01:11:30 how did how did people know that we were
01:11:32 supposed to do it this way
01:11:34 um and it would be how I would approach
01:11:35 solving a problem and it's kind of how
01:11:38 um you know we've internalized certain
01:11:40 things but the best way is it's 17 years
01:11:43 old now and it is a teenager that's
01:11:46 liberating itself so it's not 100 me uh
01:11:50 in fact it is this much broader uh
01:11:53 different being uh there are aspects of
01:11:56 um hasn't taken after me at all in um
01:12:00 product development you know Gustav is a
01:12:03 formidable product leader as an example
01:12:04 and Alex is a formidable business leader
01:12:07 and the two of them are now leading more
01:12:09 of the day today and they're certainly
01:12:10 instilling their personal uh values and
01:12:14 their personal uh perspective of the of
01:12:16 the company too which I think they're
01:12:18 totally entitled to doing having been
01:12:20 with the company for 12 plus years both
01:12:23 um but it is interesting seeing it
01:12:25 because we're approaching things now in
01:12:27 a way I wouldn't always do it's not
01:12:29 inconsistent with important principles
01:12:31 of mine but but it's certainly not
01:12:34 directed and the other part is I started
01:12:36 this as a 23 year old and the 23 year
01:12:39 old Daniel while many parts are the same
01:12:42 uh the 40 year old Daniel with two kids
01:12:47 having seen that have changed
01:12:50 perspectives as well I have a different
01:12:52 feeling about work and and the
01:12:55 importance of that in my life still very
01:12:57 important but may not be the sole most
01:13:00 important thing that I do so just to
01:13:02 mention one and so it has similarities
01:13:05 uh but there's differences to me as an
01:13:08 individual too but I think if you
01:13:10 compare me to 23 year old Daniel the 30
01:13:13 year old Daniel's a 40 year old Daniel
01:13:17 um I've evolved to and and candidly I'm
01:13:20 in that period at the moment where I'm
01:13:23 perhaps trying to figure out who the 40
01:13:25 year old Daniel really is because it's a
01:13:29 different one than the 30 year old one
01:13:31 um maybe it's subtleties
01:13:34 but um I think in quite a big way also
01:13:38 and just thinking about something like a
01:13:40 culture the 23 year old Daniel
01:13:42 culture was having a ping pong table uh
01:13:46 30 year old Daniel would have said yeah
01:13:48 culture is important but didn't really
01:13:49 understand why and the 40 year old
01:13:54 um you know the 30 year old Daniel would
01:13:56 be more strategy than culture actually
01:13:58 and the 40 year old Daniel is all about
01:14:00 culture almost to the point where
01:14:04 um secondary if not even tertiary to
01:14:08 um and what he wrote Daniel's all about
01:14:09 culture yeah way more so what is the
01:14:13 culture well and that's the amazing
01:14:16 thing because it is the most scalable
01:14:18 thing done right of a company and it's
01:14:21 the hardest thing right because it is
01:14:23 everything and nothing it is every
01:14:25 positive action that's happening in the
01:14:26 companies every negative action or
01:14:28 company every person that's joining
01:14:30 every person is leaving is impacting
01:14:34 um in its Essence I believe culture is
01:14:37 about rewarding the positive behaviors
01:14:39 who want to see in the company and
01:14:41 obviously dissuade the negative for the
01:14:44 positive behaviors you want to see well
01:14:46 one of them is taking risks
01:14:48 um and failing and how do you do that
01:14:49 when you have eight or nine thousand
01:14:51 people inside of a company responsibly
01:14:54 how do you when the common status quo is
01:14:58 we don't like failure you don't get
01:15:01 promoted based on failure you get
01:15:04 promoted based on being successful any
01:15:07 Duke has this thinking in bets she talks
01:15:10 about I love that is thinking about
01:15:11 poker ships on the table and and she
01:15:14 said one time when when we spoke she
01:15:16 said to me it's like a company is like
01:15:20 everyone has chips at the table we just
01:15:22 don't know how many we have and so the
01:15:24 people that have been successful have
01:15:26 way more so they have leniency and
01:15:28 allowancy in the culture of any
01:15:30 organizations to do more than someone
01:15:32 who just started
01:15:34 um and perhaps have a less lesser ones
01:15:36 and if you failed enough times what's
01:15:39 naturally going to happen is that you
01:15:41 won't have the same agency in a large
01:15:43 organization they impact things too so
01:15:46 then the the Counterpoint to that would
01:15:47 be well how do you then
01:15:50 create an environment where people
01:15:53 um are allowed to take risks and then
01:15:56 balance that with say a Spotify at this
01:15:58 point where we have a huge amount of
01:16:01 responsibility too we have tens of
01:16:03 millions of creators that have their
01:16:05 livelihood of them platform so we can
01:16:07 just experiment with how we're paying
01:16:08 out and so on and so forth right and the
01:16:11 550 million consumers we have to be
01:16:15 responsible with their data we can't you
01:16:18 know put new things in front of them
01:16:19 without testing them and so on and so
01:16:24 um there's this constant tension between
01:16:27 being Innovative taking risks
01:16:31 um and um you know at the same time
01:16:33 obviously being responsible and and
01:16:37 but that's all about culture
01:16:39 I'm absolutely obsessed with the subject
01:16:41 of culture because I really think it's
01:16:42 an under underappreciated factor in
01:16:47 um and why businesses are the way they
01:16:49 are I think you could basically take
01:16:51 a person off the street and the culture
01:16:52 you drop them in determines the behavior
01:16:54 you'll get from them yeah and so
01:16:57 um and having sat here and interviewed
01:16:58 like Sir Alex Ferguson's ex-team mates
01:17:00 yeah you just come to learn that sir
01:17:01 Alex Ferguson's greatness wasn't a
01:17:03 strategy right they all say to me I
01:17:05 remember Patrice and ever said to me
01:17:06 that he walked in on a we were playing
01:17:08 Arsenal yeah on a Sunday in London yeah
01:17:11 and he walked in and just said Lads
01:17:12 listen beautiful weather outside don't
01:17:14 [ __ ] up my Sunday and walked out because
01:17:16 his thing was about management he just
01:17:17 had this culture the other thing they
01:17:19 said to me which is always stayed with
01:17:20 me is Rio Ferdinand said to me how many
01:17:22 times do you think he came into the
01:17:23 training ground dressing room yeah in 26
01:17:25 years like I don't know they said twice
01:17:27 really they need to come in there the
01:17:28 culture was in there yeah
01:17:30 and it was self-policing when it's
01:17:31 strong right yeah but you're right
01:17:33 sports teams the ones that do really
01:17:35 well uh I was being told an Arsenal
01:17:38 story that I probably can't share but uh
01:17:40 you could see bits and pieces of
01:17:44 um you know how he's pushing that team
01:17:46 culture at the moment too which seems
01:17:48 very fascinating uh with some of the
01:17:50 almost Antics uh it seems to be doing
01:17:52 this All or Nothing season that was I
01:17:56 think last season
01:17:59 um so you can see that and I love
01:18:01 studying that with sports teams because
01:18:02 you know it's 11 placed on the pitch how
01:18:05 do you make these people gel together
01:18:08 um and form a team
01:18:10 um hugely important thing so I agree but
01:18:13 but also like imagine if you had 11 new
01:18:16 players uh um you know yeah can you even
01:18:20 form or Chelsea these days yeah right
01:18:23 um can you even uh create a culture that
01:18:25 way uh or is it something that should be
01:18:28 done intentional
01:18:29 um I mean if you're growing a company
01:18:30 you're growing the number of employees
01:18:31 by 50 two years in a row most of your
01:18:35 employees probably won't have been here
01:18:37 even for a year it will change things
01:18:40 whereas if you make something where it's
01:18:42 more of a gradual change it will uh it's
01:18:46 easier I'm not saying it's trivial but
01:18:48 to to kind of have the same culture and
01:18:52 I think many Founders make that mistake
01:18:54 when they overhide they don't understand
01:18:56 the implication of the culture they just
01:18:58 look at sort of more Warm Bodies
01:19:00 but it's all these other subtle things
01:19:02 that starts breaking
01:19:04 Daniel we've got a closing tradition on
01:19:05 this podcast where the last guest leaves
01:19:07 a question for the next guest and I love
01:19:09 this question because
01:19:10 um you don't like giving advice so yeah
01:19:12 this is a perfect one for you
01:19:15 what is the advice
01:19:16 that someone could have but didn't give
01:19:19 you at 21 years old that would have made
01:19:23 you more successful at the thing you now
01:19:36 I think uh we we spoke about it I've
01:19:39 gone through iterations of uh trying to
01:19:43 learn from other people a model that a
01:19:45 huge part of that has been kind of
01:19:49 optimizing for my strengths and not
01:19:52 covering my weaknesses and I wish that I
01:19:57 realized much earlier on that perhaps my
01:20:01 superpower is that I'm pretty good all
01:20:04 around her and not particularly good at
01:20:06 anything so I used to think for instance
01:20:08 that I had this brilliant you know I
01:20:10 modeled myself on the mark zuckerbergs
01:20:12 of the world of like I need to run every
01:20:14 product meeting I need to be the best
01:20:16 product person in the world
01:20:18 it just wasn't me and it took me a while
01:20:20 to realize that and be comfortable
01:20:22 um saying that right
01:20:27 I I have realized that I do like a lot
01:20:30 of different things I love learning
01:20:32 about new things and perhaps that is my
01:20:34 superpower uh to realize that the person
01:20:38 who's doing PR that's quite an
01:20:40 interesting thing to learn about there
01:20:43 are interesting things about employment
01:20:45 law how that came to be and trying to
01:20:47 understand that and you the list goes on
01:20:49 and on and on and I love that
01:20:52 um and I wish I would have probably
01:20:55 understood that earlier about myself
01:20:57 because that would have allowed myself
01:20:59 to not model so much on other people but
01:21:03 but somehow be more introspective and
01:21:06 listen to myself
01:21:08 and I think that's really one of the
01:21:10 things I I take away from you said very
01:21:12 eloquently is that your proof that
01:21:15 entrepreneurs can Buck a number of
01:21:17 different Trends you know and still be
01:21:20 wildly successful and that evidence
01:21:22 means to someone like me that there's no
01:21:24 such thing as a entrepreneur in terms of
01:21:28 how they operate what they're interested
01:21:31 um and that there's many ways to be a
01:21:34 successful entrepreneur and it really
01:21:36 from what you've just said there the
01:21:38 most sure-fire way of becoming a
01:21:40 successful entrepreneur is actually
01:21:42 looking inward versus looking outwards
01:21:44 at like oh how does Elon do it or how
01:21:47 does Daniel do it yeah
01:21:49 um which stays with me a lot because
01:21:51 it's really changed my thinking on a few
01:21:52 really important things that I think
01:21:55 yeah I've been limit I've been limiting
01:21:59 um Daniel thank you so much thank you so
01:22:01 much for having me thank you building
01:22:03 such a great business and building a
01:22:05 business that that is
01:22:07 um I guess it even though you're number
01:22:09 one still embodies the kind of first
01:22:12 principle Underdog mentality there's
01:22:14 something about Spotify which is it
01:22:16 feels I know people don't like this word
01:22:18 but I don't know if you do but it feels
01:22:20 more like a family because I've met a
01:22:23 lot of the people there I know a lot of
01:22:24 them yeah and they're like really nice
01:22:27 people that are very open books it
01:22:29 doesn't feel like a big corporate to me
01:22:31 yeah um it's very humble in its in its
01:22:34 approach but it's also very ambitious
01:22:35 yeah and it strikes that balance really
01:22:37 wonderful wonderfully well and it's some
01:22:39 it's a company in a brand that I deeply
01:22:41 resonate with for that reason it's a
01:22:42 wonderful wonderful thing and I think
01:22:45 um you know you talked about wanting to
01:22:47 do work that brings good to the world
01:22:49 the good to the world that Spotify has
01:22:51 done in my view is in quantifiable
01:22:54 because I mean music is a is a wonderful
01:22:57 thing but what you're doing now in
01:22:58 podcasting as well and how you've really
01:22:59 owned and driven that industry forward
01:23:01 for people like me to have these longer
01:23:03 form more contextual conversations I
01:23:05 think it's hard to measure the good
01:23:06 that's done to the world but it's
01:23:07 certainly thank you an important one
01:23:09 thank you that means a lot to me and
01:23:11 um you know it's about being humble
01:23:13 while doing it but um you know ambition
01:23:16 and humbleness may not seem like they go
01:23:18 hand in hand and so I think you capture
01:23:21 the essence of what we like Spotify to
01:23:24 be at its best which is super ambitious
01:23:27 but yet humble uh with all of its past
01:23:30 success all of that stuff that we're
01:23:31 still learning super curious I I never
01:23:33 told the story before but when I went I
01:23:35 went on a trip to Sweden and I was there
01:23:37 with some of your colleagues so Gustav
01:23:39 who's head of product right and Alex
01:23:40 who's head of this business everything
01:23:42 that makes money yep and I was there
01:23:44 with Shaquille as well who's a good
01:23:46 friend and colleague of yours and has
01:23:48 been for a long time and they sat me
01:23:50 down at a table for for about 30 minutes
01:23:52 or an hour yeah and said
01:23:55 you're a podcaster Steve yeah tell us
01:23:57 everything we need to know about
01:23:58 podcasting yep how can we make um
01:24:00 Spotify better for you as a podcaster
01:24:02 and for the very people at the top of
01:24:03 Spotify to sit and listen so intently
01:24:06 to me and then to act upon what I said
01:24:10 and then give me feedback weeks later
01:24:11 and say okay we're now you know working
01:24:12 on this having listened to you it's not
01:24:14 something that a big corporate that was
01:24:17 arrogant or very sure of themselves or
01:24:20 lost that mentality would ever do that
01:24:22 stayed with me because it's hard to do
01:24:24 that when you get big to really be
01:24:25 curious and humble and that's exactly
01:24:27 what Spotify is so I wish I wish you all
01:24:28 the luck in the world and I'm sure you
01:24:30 don't need it because you've got a
01:24:31 wonderful culture of um people and great
01:24:33 people around you but just wanted to say
01:24:35 thank you for that well no thank you and
01:24:37 I mean again yes we listen but it's also
01:24:39 because you are innovating on your side
01:24:41 and uh uh with all the aspects even
01:24:44 seeing your studio here today it's kind
01:24:46 of like bringing it to the next level so
01:24:48 that's that's amazing to see that you're
01:24:50 able to do that amazing to bring these
01:24:52 conversations to the world and we all
01:24:54 get the benefit to learn from them as
01:24:55 well without maybe having the
01:24:57 opportunity like you have to meet all
01:24:59 these individuals too and that's going
01:25:01 to bring a lot of growth Journeys uh for
01:25:03 a lot of people too
01:25:08 we've got an exciting new sponsor on
01:25:10 this podcast and I couldn't be more
01:25:12 excited to announce that we're now
01:25:13 working with Shopify and if there's one
01:25:15 tool that I use pretty much every single
01:25:17 day of my businesses that is certainly
01:25:19 Shopify I'm sure you've all heard about
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01:25:22 haven't then Shopify is the Commerce
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01:25:34 guys may know that we recently sold a
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01:25:47 relates to business and a tool that my
01:25:49 team have absolutely loved using which
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01:25:59 head to shopify.com Bartlett to take
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