00:10would love to introduce michael lepic he
00:13is an associate professor of civil and
00:15environmental engineering and a senior
00:17fellow at the woods institute for the
00:19environment at stanford university
00:22as an instructor he has taught numerous
00:24executive education and professional
00:27on topics of finance leadership
00:30entrepreneurship in the us brazil france
00:34korea south africa and china he has
00:38four companies in the u.s and china
00:40based on his research and advanced
00:42construction materials
00:44michael joined the stan join stanford
00:46university faculty from
00:48university of michigan school of natural
00:50resources and environment
00:53michael fores is an executive leader in
00:56learning and organizational capability
01:00team driving transformation toward a
01:04before boeing he was an executive leader
01:06of learning at microsoft
01:09transforming microsoft sales consulting
01:12and other divisions to achieve
01:13microsoft's digital transformation
01:16michael is an adjunct professor at
01:18stanford university and the university
01:21where he teaches numerous courses on
01:23innovation and entrepreneurism
01:26with that i'm going to go ahead and turn
01:28it over to our wonderful speakers today
01:31so you can all enjoy
01:34the wealth of knowledge they have to
01:36share with you thank you michael and
01:40thanks thanks hannah and and uh dr
01:42forrest thank you so much
01:44for taking the time uh to spend with me
01:47to chat about you know this this um this
01:51of of entrepreneurship so you know
01:54i'd like to to frame today's discussion
01:58uh around um sort of uh for those that
02:03late night u.s television um sort of a a
02:07david letterman style top ten
02:10uh in which in which we talk about some
02:14things that can happen anywhere and in
02:17if if it's possible i'd like to to talk
02:20the top 10 things that that can go wrong
02:25with the startup you know talk about
02:26some failure modes and i think by
02:28by looking at those things that can that
02:32i think there's a tremendous amount to
02:36in in how to prevent the things from
02:39going wrong and how to make them
02:41go right and i know there's a few of
02:44that i think you think are you're
02:45thinking are probably more important
02:47than others and maybe we can spend a
02:49little bit of a little more time on them
02:51does that sound okay
02:53sounds perfect to me thanks for inviting
02:54me i'm glad to be here with you
02:57all right so uh number 10
03:00once again not in any order of
03:03but one that i actually think is
03:04incredibly important uh number 10 is
03:07um competitive landscape um
03:11how is this a challenge and and and how
03:13should startups think about this
03:15yeah and i'll just say thanks you know
03:16thanks again for having me it's april
03:18fool's day right so i was a little leery
03:19when you said hey let's do this on april
03:211st i was like okay what's going on
03:23what's mr lupin might have some
03:25shenanigans up his sleeve
03:27but yeah so landscape i think is really
03:30important and by the way everything
03:32about is a system of interdependencies
03:36there are lots of numerous failure
03:37points as we go through these top ten
03:40interlinked as i think about them and
03:43you know i'll just say as we start too
03:44that you know 70 to 80 percent of
03:47we're going to going to talk about the
03:49top 10 list of reasons why they fail and
03:51what you can do about them
03:52in terms of landscape i'll just say in
03:54my mind the world is spinning
03:56a bit faster and it's so funny because i
04:00uh i was doing a class for columbia you
04:03recently and i was looking at my whole
04:05this part of my hypothesis about future
04:07work and how it's changing was
04:09that it feels like the world's spinning
04:10faster partly because of the fourth
04:12industrial revolution and all this
04:13accelerating technology
04:15and then i went to look at the world
04:16economic forum and there's some
04:18scientific proof that the world will
04:19spin a little bit one second faster this
04:22than other years crazy i know but in
04:26i think that means things are changing
04:27more quickly particularly because we had
04:31you have you know coco unemployed then
04:33you have the fourth industrial
04:34revolution technology still
04:36progressing all the stuff in the cloud
04:38and so if you're a startup you've got to
04:40be watching your landscape
04:42more closely than ever because it's
04:43shifting faster than ever
04:45and you know the the best thing that i
04:47think we've seen over the years as we've
04:49taught to startups is is the the idea of
04:53a pestle p-e-s-t-l-e you may have heard
04:56of that but it's really looking at the
04:57the political economic social technical
05:01legal and environmental factors that
05:03could impact your startup
05:05and i'll just say real quickly because
05:07it's changing more rapidly you shouldn't
05:10which is a lot of what startups do they
05:13v1 product you need to do it every three
05:16or even more often because the the
05:19competition's changing and the landscape
05:22much more quickly these days now i think
05:24that i think that pestle framework is is
05:26really useful in this case the other
05:29about competitive landscape is making
05:31sure that you really
05:33understand who your actual competitors
05:36right and and not only looking at
05:38companies that appear to be doing the
05:40but companies that are also offering a
05:43similar value proposition to the
05:46right you know um uh zoom is not only
05:49with skype and with teams and with
05:51others but also with many other
05:54of co-working platforms and even regular
05:58uh when when when people are allowed to
06:01offices and so seeing that competitive
06:03landscape as broadly as possible from
06:05the customer viewpoint
06:06i think is is it's the you know that the
06:09pistol framework is is really helpful in
06:11allowing folks to do that
06:13yeah maybe one quick follow-up there too
06:16people sometimes they'll say oh there's
06:18we don't have any competition we're
06:20in a really new space maybe a new
06:21technology well that's probably not true
06:24um players that are normally not in one
06:27industry are moving into different
06:28industries and we've seen that at boeing
06:30with spacex right spacex came in
06:32um and really is taking a share of the
06:35um so so you have to watch out for other
06:37players who are who are is part of this
06:39disruption that's happening
06:40uh fueled by these new technologies in
06:44but people will move into other
06:45industries and markets and by the way
06:46big companies are always watching
06:49to either you know hopefully buy them
06:50out if you're a startup you'd like that
06:52but also maybe just run over the top of
06:54them once they see that there's an
06:57that a that a startup is starting to you
06:59know take advantage of
07:01yeah first mover advantage or first
07:03mover advantage is a bit of a fallacy
07:05um in many regards right so number nine
07:08market uh how can market be a a source
07:13if for a new startup yeah we have some
07:16colleagues at stanford who
07:17who you know really really pushed for
07:19this one as a top priority because
07:20there's so much failure around it and
07:22it's a lot of it's around the size of
07:25um so it does link to scaling but but
07:28it's segmentation like who are you going
07:30after first we see startup folks really
07:33conflicted about who who their their
07:36and how they're going to segment it who
07:38do they go after first second third
07:39fourth what order what speed um and that
07:44a whole lot of chaos um in a startup
07:46because they're really unclear
07:48about the audience that they're going to
07:50serve first and how to meet their needs
07:52and then have it flow
07:53into future audiences so how much you
07:56customize and tailor for a first segment
07:58versus having you know the the messaging
08:00and the product and its features be
08:02able to flow into other markets
08:04afterwards um so i think segmentation is
08:07and then how to sell which channels and
08:10is an issue being able to really set a
08:13price that that's that's valid and
08:15and you can rely upon you know
08:19talking about some some red flags just
08:21like you said a red flag
08:22is we don't have any competitors that's
08:25never true everyone has competitors
08:27similarly when we ask folks who's your
08:29market everyone's my market
08:31that's also a big red flag no not
08:35is your market and and if you think
08:37that's the case then you then you don't
08:39have enough focus to truly be able to
08:41serve anyone really well
08:44um and and and so uh even the most
08:47successful products i mean if we think
08:48about something like windows right
08:50where where a license on windows still
08:52gets sold every second of the day or
08:54every couple seconds of the day
08:55um one of the most successful products
08:59um even even that doesn't serve everyone
09:02and um and and so i think it's a great
09:06all right number eight financials
09:09and this isn't just about raising money
09:12raising money is always a challenge
09:14but this is more than just raising money
09:18really where a lot of hard work has to
09:19be done a lot of details need to be
09:22and the the decisions and assumptions
09:24that get made in a financial model and a
09:27are really strategic decisions that
09:31and you've got to be able to answer the
09:32tough questions about
09:34really the product its features the
09:36competition the timing
09:37all of it plays into a financial model
09:40so those assumptions and decisions
09:43a lot of your strategy if you haven't
09:44already figured it out
09:46but you should know your income your
09:48expenses your assets your cash flow
09:50and then how much external money you
09:53you know vc money is the most expensive
09:55money you'll ever uh
09:56receive uh you know they're expecting
10:00at least and so you've got to be careful
10:03also dilutes your ownership so a lot
10:05plays into this in cap tables and
10:07and ownership um but but you've got to
10:10have your arms around the financials and
10:11there are people who are
10:13really strong product people who don't
10:15really want to deal with financials much
10:16a bit so you got to get help where you
10:18can um because financials
10:21is some it's something that you need to
10:22know as a startup leader
10:24and and you've got to do the due
10:28yeah it's um it's it's it's an
10:31interesting point in
10:32in that you know when you talk to an
10:35they're going to and you say look i'm
10:38i'm looking to raise
10:39i'm looking to raise you know five
10:41million dollars on a 20
10:43share um their first question will be
10:47why 5 million what do you need it for
10:49and if that number just comes out of
10:52um that's that's another one of those
10:55right i want to know exactly what does
10:57your operating stack look like
10:59you know what are you going to spend
11:01this money on this quarter next quarter
11:02and the quarter after
11:04uh you know and without having those
11:06specifics for folks to drill down
11:08you know so much about venture capital
11:10and investing like this is about trust
11:13because you truly have to trust the
11:15people you're going into business with
11:17which your investor is going into
11:18business with you and if you don't have
11:19those numbers to back it up
11:21um and to understand those financials
11:23that trust will never be built
11:26yeah totally agree totally agree
11:29um all right next up and this is one of
11:31our heavy hitters um out of the out of
11:33the top 10 number six
11:35product how does product get messed up
11:38yeah well the product is where
11:40a lot of people focus and for good
11:42reason it needs to be
11:44really clear what the product is and
11:46some startup leaders have trouble
11:48describing their product
11:49and maybe it's because they haven't also
11:52prioritized features
11:53and know exactly what the customer wants
11:56in in a v1 or a next next version
12:00and so being really clear and
12:02prioritizing what the product is what
12:06and doing research around the product to
12:08make sure it's differentiated with
12:11um you know if you're looking to
12:14you know look into standard sources like
12:15gartner that's too late you know that's
12:18research data if you're really cutting
12:21edge and differentiated there's probably
12:22not much written about your
12:24your product and its competitors so the
12:26thing you need to do is talk to
12:27customers you need to go out and develop
12:29some personas and really think through
12:32you know what what are the features that
12:34this product needs and again it plays
12:36into market segmentation you know how
12:37does it play into that first segment
12:39and future segments of what you're
12:42it's about scope you know of prioritized
12:46startups just aren't really clear on
12:47that every every feature you decide to
12:50is a trade-off for a feature you're not
12:52doing and so being clear about that i
12:54think is really critical
12:56yeah i i i it's it's true that you you
12:59you only have so much time
13:01can you talk a little bit about
13:03particularly for folks coming from uh
13:06maybe from larger companies how product
13:08development and product
13:10uh uh coming up with that product is a
13:12little bit different
13:13at a big company versus at a startup and
13:16sort of what some of those
13:18differences might be for folks coming
13:21uh industry having worked for a big
13:23company wanting to think about a startup
13:25and yes a lot of it starts with that
13:28how is that product development process
13:30a little bit different
13:31yeah coming to the use of page from
13:34microsoft i led a strategy team there
13:37uh intrapreneurism and how that plays
13:40you know some things are similar in the
13:41sense that prioritizing features is
13:44uh you know it's at a big company they
13:46may have enough resources where they can
13:48pivot and throw more money and resources
13:49that's something to recover if if
13:51they're seeing that something's not
13:52working a startup you may not have you
13:55you know thin edge of resources to be
13:57able to pivot as often and throw as many
14:01you don't want to burn through a whole
14:04you know in in a haphazard way so but
14:07but some things that are similar
14:08getting priority around the features i
14:10mean i when i was at microsoft
14:12it you know it's a lot of product folks
14:14are technologists and they they
14:16feel they can do anything and and so
14:18it's not okay just because you can build
14:20that you need to go build it you know
14:23you get bloated feature sets that you
14:27accomplish in a timeline to meet a
14:28market window because all this is meant
14:30to to achieve a market window
14:32where your product's gonna be hot in the
14:36um i've seen it happen where you get you
14:38know too many features
14:40product managers fighting over which
14:41features should go in
14:43you know all saying that they have
14:44customer data um and
14:46and it gets it gets too bloated and you
14:48can't meet the timeline so suddenly you
14:49need to start cutting out features
14:51um in a startup backing that could that
14:53can ruin you so you got to be really
14:56up front and go conservatively with a
14:59with a first version knowing you can add
15:00things and face things in over time
15:03now it's it's it's um it's it
15:06it's a bit of a balancing act between
15:10sort of making sure you don't have that
15:13product with a ton of features and yet
15:16um you know thinking back to to to jeff
15:20of a whole product solution right
15:23you want to make sure that you don't
15:24bloat it with features that aren't
15:28offering value proposition to your
15:31focus nero customer segment but also
15:34this notion of whole product solution
15:36where you're providing the entire
15:40one little bitty widget in a much bigger
15:43which big companies understand well and
15:46so can you talk a little also maybe a
15:47little bit about this juxtaposition
15:48between whole product solution
15:50and that bloated features um yeah for
15:53sure i mean it's what's the you know
15:55minimum viable product that meets the
15:58and yet what we also see and this
16:00happened in a lot of the stanford
16:01programs is the startup folks think
16:03about the technology or the product
16:04itself and its features
16:06and struggle with that but don't think
16:08about the whole product model you know
16:09what other kinds of services can be
16:11provided along with that that generate
16:14you can charge for what about training
16:17you know work there's a story out of
16:20that i love um you know there was new
16:23technology to have sensors to monitor
16:27nuclear power plants and dams and
16:30and you know the the gentleman created
16:32it out of his garage basically
16:34and had this really cool technology that
16:36he had developed to to sense
16:38if something was wrong with a a plant or
16:42and and he went to the the leader of of
16:45you know who managed these dams and you
16:48know dams if they break you have all
16:50these villages downstream in cities that
16:52people will people die and so
16:55you know he he said hey you know i've
16:57got this cool technology and
16:58and the leader said well you know um you
17:01know let's see it so they did a demo and
17:03he's like well what are you charging for
17:04it and he just said well you know for
17:06the software i don't know maybe i don't
17:07know what you know twelve
17:09thousand euros and then the leader of
17:11the damn started laughing
17:13and he's like are you kidding me do you
17:14know what happens if a damn breaks
17:16and and why haven't you thought through
17:18the services and and and the maintenance
17:20and the training of my people he goes do
17:22you know what my budget is to try to
17:23keep these dams safe and these
17:25and similarly for nuclear power plants
17:28and you know our friendly startup um
17:31gentleman who went through our program
17:32by the way and so we helped him
17:35said well i think i could go back and
17:36think through some of these these whole
17:38uh features but if i did that you know
17:40what what would you be willing to pay
17:42and the leader of the dam said how about
17:45000 euros per for for the dam
17:48and and our startup ceo said whoa
17:51okay great you know he tried to keep his
17:53composure and then and then the leader
17:56by the way i have 12 dams and i'll pay
17:59000 for each damn so so it's that kind
18:02of story about whole product model
18:05totally totally totally um all right
18:09number five technology disruption
18:13uh how can that be a a a challenge when
18:17startups yeah oh my gosh i talk about
18:19this a lot because this is really
18:21fourth industrial revolution and just
18:23quickly if you're not familiar with it
18:25say real real fast the first one you
18:28eighteen hundreds you know think charles
18:30dickens mechanization
18:31uh you know it was all about steam and
18:35um so think you know factories in
18:37london's belching out smoke
18:39and then fast forward nineteen hundreds
18:41henry ford assembly line
18:43electricity that was the next one the
18:45second revolution third was
18:46the the personal computing revolution
18:48people still think we're there
18:50uh you know it servers in the basement
18:53but we've moved in and the holy grail at
18:55microsoft was to put the operating
18:56system in the cloud and so having azure
18:59aws from amazon and having cloud
19:01technology has changed the world
19:04and we don't even realize all the
19:05computing power now that we have
19:07it's not just putting excel and and
19:10in the cloud is ai it is machine
19:14advanced robotics it's quantum computing
19:17this disruption is changing the world
19:19and will change all of our lives it'll
19:22healthcare manufacturing agriculture
19:25and so this is a great opportunity for
19:27all of you as startup folks because
19:29it is a it is a you know greenfield
19:32blank canvas and people are moving in
19:34uh because there's a lot of disruption
19:35of markets happening but it also
19:38means if you're a startup person you've
19:39got to watch this because things are
19:40changing out from under you
19:42it's not okay to do an analysis of your
19:45competition in the technology
19:47and then just assume as you build out v1
19:50over the course of months and
19:51a year that nothing has changed and
19:53that's where startups will fail is
19:54they're not staying up
19:56on the the technology that's changing
19:59i mean doing a startup is not a
20:03it's like four full-time jobs and so
20:06it's it's hard to kind of
20:08keep abreast of everything that's going
20:10on while also keeping your head down and
20:12focused on what you need to do that day
20:15which is which is where really great
20:16investors can be important
20:18because and forming that that advisory
20:22board and that board of directors when
20:23you get to the point where you're taking
20:26because ideally they can also help you
20:29to stay abreast of all of those all
20:32indeed all right um uh
20:36let's see here where are we now i think
20:37we're on number seven um
20:39and um uh and and this is a this is a
20:41biggie oh excuse me number six
20:43uh a biggie um customer need how does
20:46customer need play into
20:48a potential failure mode yeah i mean
20:52so much hinges on this probably
20:53everything you know we talked about the
20:55prioritized feature set but it's
20:57it's how well people can articulate you
20:59know basically a problem statement in
21:02in the customer need or pain in one
21:05and is it really clear you know if
21:07you're starting to look at
21:09who your market is how you segment it um
21:12it connects to everything else right
21:14financials prioritize features
21:16but being really clear that you're
21:17solving this customer need or pain
21:20and you're looking to do it uniquely or
21:22differentiated from everyone else
21:25it's not okay to just come along as a
21:26startup and and you know reinvent what
21:28some big companies already doing to meet
21:31needs you just won't succeed because
21:33then you have problems with loyalty and
21:36acquire customers which we'll we'll also
21:39but it's it's really honing in on that
21:41customer need that you can uniquely meet
21:44that is differentiated you know we
21:46always said at microsoft the customer is
21:49you know the customer is it's all about
21:52and you know it worst case you you stay
21:55disconnected from the customer and
21:56you're not close enough and haven't done
21:58enough sampling to really understand the
22:00any early testimonials and you know
22:03first first adopters
22:05we see startup people who feel like
22:08they're assuming they know what's needed
22:10and can be very wrong and haven't and
22:14who have you talked to which customers
22:15how many and they can't tell us or it's
22:18only been not two or three
22:20you know that's not enough and and you
22:21know some product people
22:23they're very much into the technology
22:24maybe a little more introverted and
22:26don't want to get out and talk to
22:27customers it's uncomfortable
22:29but but it's got to be done by someone
22:31and who's really out there
22:32um informing the startup because
22:35everything flows from that customer need
22:38it it formulates the strategy or vision
22:41which which then everything flows from
22:43that strategy and vision
22:44yeah you know in the in the um in the
22:46venture capital investing uh programs
22:49that we that we do i use a line from uh
22:52from a famous silicon valley
22:54investor that when you when you meet
22:56with an entrepreneur
22:57um what you're really what you want to
23:00hear from them and so for those that are
23:01thinking about you know doing the
23:02kind of elevator pitch too quick quick
23:06we tell them make attraction sandwich
23:10talk about traction do your customers
23:13need your product and what kind of
23:14traction are you having with real
23:15customers who are paying these are not
23:17freemium things these are not users that
23:19are just doing it for free or
23:21or or or you know friends and family
23:23that are trying it out who are real
23:24customers that are liking product so
23:26first thing talk about traction
23:27second thing talk about whatever it is
23:29you're doing and then the third thing
23:31talk again about traction and so you
23:33want to make that traction sandwich
23:34traction pitch traction because
23:38for an investor traction's everything
23:42if you can show that customers truly
23:45and are willing to pay for it everything
23:49will flow and so yeah we we tell we tell
23:52in pitching for quick pitches traction
23:56and then that goes right back to
23:59that's great love it yeah next up one as
24:03a university faculty member that's near
24:05and dear to my heart
24:06research and development and how
24:10don't fund research projects
24:13yeah there's some great case studies
24:17people were funded with you know multi
24:19millions of dollars from vcs and the
24:22still needed a lot more research and
24:23development and so you burn through all
24:26trying to finish uh research and
24:28development to even get to
24:31and you know that happens in bing cos
24:33too you know where where
24:34you're you have a research and
24:36development team that's building out
24:38something or thinking they're going to
24:40help you know infuse something in a
24:41product and it's not ready and it's hard
24:43to transfer over and all that
24:44but for a startup knowing how much more
24:47is needed for a product and if it can
24:51you know because there's sometimes great
24:52ideas that get funded
24:54and and there's a big assumption that
24:57you know we leap of faith that we can
24:59finish this research and development and
25:01then you find out oh it can't
25:02it can't even be done we're certainly
25:04not in the timeline with the money we
25:06so being really astute about you know
25:09how much r d is left and and can we do
25:12it can it really be done
25:13and then of course there's the the
25:15problem of that's great that you did the
25:18can you create a prototype and can it be
25:20you know potentially mass produced you
25:22know whether it's digital or
25:23physical um can you scale it as a
25:26can it get productized there are some
25:28great products sitting out there that
25:31scale enough to be productized we've
25:34talked about advanced
25:35battery technology how to live or more
25:38it just is too expensive to scale too
25:40many expensive you know products need
25:42their materials need to go into it and
25:44it's just there's there's not the
25:46manufacturing capability to make it
25:48so so that's one example but but that
25:51gives it some of the r d and
25:52productization piece
25:55well and and i and one of the other
25:59is also this often a a misunderstanding
26:02by the founder of the entrepreneur
26:04on the the cost distribution between
26:07research and development
26:08um uh you know you feel great when when
26:11when the research is done
26:13you've got this the the idea works
26:16and then you're like okay we're almost
26:19development is far more expensive and
26:22this gets to that productization develop
26:24development is actually more expensive
26:26than the initial research
26:28because you have to get to that point
26:30where it is productizable
26:33and so as you think about the financials
26:35you know we were talking before about
26:36how everything's connected together
26:38making sure that you realize that
26:42is going to be 3x or more expensive than
26:45all the research you had to do to get to
26:47and making sure that you're budgeting
26:49for that appropriately
26:51with regard to fundraising and also with
26:54the staff and other resources you're
26:55gonna need to get there
26:57yeah there's a there's a great story
27:01you know the ink that's used for the
27:04they received a lot of venture capital
27:07money originally and and
27:08and failed because they hadn't done
27:09enough research and they couldn't get it
27:11to a state of development where they
27:14and so the company went bankrupt the
27:18uh but but a couple people kept the idea
27:20going in their garage
27:21and and found a way to not only finish
27:24on their own but also then to get it to
27:26that productization development stage
27:29where people could actually buy it but
27:31it took the startup failing first before
27:33it could come back from the ashes
27:36yeah right on all right another one of
27:39coming down to the last few on the uh on
27:42um and this is this one i know is near
27:45and dear to your heart with your
27:47uh leadership team and culture how can
27:50that be a problem for a a startup or a
27:53oh my gosh there's so much to talk about
27:55here and this is you know this gets
27:56called the number one reason why
27:57startups fail everyone thinks it's
27:59financials or it's the product or it's
28:02the the leadership team and culture can
28:04make something fail more quickly and
28:06and faster and worse than anything else
28:09you know most people don't have a good
28:11plan around this they just assume we'll
28:13start bringing people on board and we'll
28:15just you know find good people who have
28:17um expertise that can help us and not
28:20my buddy my buddy knows how to do
28:22something let's have him do it yeah
28:24oh yeah a lot of times you know friends
28:27yeah and so then when the or
28:30we always tell phone if you've got too
28:32many people with the same last name
28:34on the cap table this is not an
28:36investigative company
28:40yeah it's a hobby it's a family business
28:42keep it that way don't try to make it a
28:43startup that's going to scale
28:45globally you know just keep it a hobby a
28:47family business in private if you want
28:49but yeah so as you start to bring people
28:51together i mean first of all there's a
28:53issue the the leader who got the idea
28:56started and maybe got it funded
28:58with vc money may absolutely not be the
29:01right person to lead the company forward
29:03and and because they can't build an
29:05organization a high performing
29:08that really can can execute and scale a
29:11maybe they they're all about the big
29:14and you know we have some leaders today
29:16who get who get in big companies that
29:19who get criticized for being big idea
29:21people who can't execute
29:22um i won't call it any names but you can
29:24guess a few probably from the media
29:27uh and yeah and leopard knows who you
29:29knew how i'm talking about mr living
29:31so anyway the the leadership is a is a
29:35you don't want to have to fire a ceo or
29:37cto and i've been involved in that
29:38actually in startups and it's brutal um
29:41i was involved in a situation where
29:43the cto was was you know a little bit of
29:46and the the chief software developer
29:50really you know great kind of um you
29:54larger stature man really tall you know
29:57we were meeting as a leadership team and
29:59talking about the issues that startup
30:01having and uh when everyone walked out
30:03of the room and i was
30:04sitting with this this gentleman he he
30:07actually started having tears
30:08because he felt like he'd been bullied
30:10by the cto so much so
30:12actually it you know got involved in the
30:14firing of this cto which was kind of
30:16but worse is firing a ceo because that's
30:20a chance really where the venture
30:21capitalists if there's money involved
30:23feel like they need to swoop in and
30:24actually take over and so talk about
30:27dilution you know if you or or a chance
30:30for a startup to fail is when
30:32when people see that a ceo has to be
30:35and by the way it's worse though if a
30:36ceo stays and they're not they're really
30:38bad as a leader because people start not
30:40wanting to come and work
30:41um with with that in that startup
30:44they'll start not showing up
30:45and and you'll see all kinds of cultural
30:47issues but a lot of things go into this
30:49leadership team and culture it's the
30:52we've seen startups that have grown that
30:55with their culture and you've seen um
30:58uber having that problem for example you
31:00know they had major culture issues
31:02around culture and values
31:03so not not doing this intentionally and
31:07there's a whole leadership system that
31:09that i teach that gets a leadership team
31:13to really create a high performing
31:14organization if you don't have that
31:16which most people don't and they don't
31:18think about it it's a real chance for
31:21yeah so when when we're teaching our
31:24venture capital investing right and
31:25we're giving people pointers on so what
31:27do you look for in those early stages
31:28we say the first thing you look for is
31:30team the second thing you look for is
31:33the third thing you look for is team and
31:35then you can start looking at some other
31:38a great team will always figure it out
31:41a second class team will screw up even
31:45ideas yeah so we think that
31:49you know you invest in people not in
31:52yeah i think that's a great point yeah
31:54the vcs are looking to see what kind of
31:57uh what how you how strong you are as a
31:59leader do you have a good team around
32:01you is the team really
32:02working well together they'll invest in
32:04that first thinking that the
32:06the financials and the product will
32:07pivot maybe numerous times and they
32:09they assume that they're okay with that
32:11it doesn't have to stay the same product
32:13and feature set and financials that that
32:15they pitched to get the money
32:17and so they're investing in that the
32:18people in the team first
32:20to to make those pivots and bring
32:23you know it kind of goes back to that
32:24comment i made about trust right and you
32:27people you cannot trust a product you
32:30a a um you know a specific go-to-market
32:33strategy you have to trust
32:35um people some of these
32:39intangibles right i mean everyone wants
32:42you know ones and zeros and technology
32:44and and financials and
32:46and yet it comes down to the intangibles
32:48a lot of times whether a startup makes
32:50yeah that comes into some of the due
32:52diligence stuff that we talk about
32:53sometimes like due diligence
32:55on what you know this is a nice this is
32:58three people and a passion um what am i
33:02due diligence on other than maybe those
33:05all right come on the last couple
33:06customer acquisition um
33:08i think this has a lot to do with how
33:10hard it is to acquire customers
33:12well yeah so this is an area that i see
33:15focus on enough they assume if the
33:18technology is good enough if it's
33:20differentiated and has the right feature
33:21set that you build it and they will come
33:24but there's a cost to acquiring
33:27customers that's often not thought about
33:29until someone has to sit down and put
33:31around the financials it's like what i
33:34have to figure out how much it cost to
33:35acquire one customer and then multiply
33:37that times how many customers i think
33:40it's just something that startup folks
33:42don't think about enough
33:43and it is there's it can be expensive to
33:45acquire customers you have to think
33:47through your marketing and sales
33:49and and so that needs to be built in and
33:52then the other piece that goes right
33:53along with that is retention and loyalty
33:56um so if you do get them how do you keep
33:58them and make them loyal
34:00but one thing we see a lot of is you
34:01know the thought that well
34:03we're just going to acquire customers
34:05even if the customers are
34:07have some other product that they like
34:08and they're using from some other
34:10company like a big co
34:11a big company and so you know try to
34:13acquire customers who are loyal to apple
34:16um you know that's not easy and you're
34:18probably not going to do it
34:20because people are super loyal to
34:21another product and company even if it
34:23doesn't have exactly the feature set
34:24that you might be offering
34:25because yours is differentiated you
34:27can't just assume because you have a
34:29certain product and technology that
34:31you build it they're going to come and
34:32you're just like a magnet going to
34:35people with money who are going to
34:36switch over to you yeah
34:39uh you know you talked about um you know
34:40how hard it is to acquire customers
34:43this notion of oh it's just going to go
34:47very few things if anything goes viral
34:49on its own there's a lot going on behind
34:52virality forward uh and and so to think
34:56that your product well it's just gonna
34:58catch on and go viral
34:59that is not a go to market strategy that
35:03that it will will will be very difficult
35:06all right our last one and it's one that
35:08any successful startup should
35:11should will have to cope with um but can
35:14a source of a failure scale
35:18yeah a lot of startups think small and
35:21one of the things we do at stanford
35:24and and it's a silicon valley mentality
35:27it's about going big um you know there
35:30at microsoft there was a phrase that was
35:32the unwritten cultural rule which is go
35:36and and with startups i think you've got
35:39um it's it and it's that makes it more
35:43it's not just a small you know product
35:45you're going to sell around a city or
35:46even a region and we see this
35:48as we worked in in europe a lot with the
35:51you know some of the folks in france
35:53have thought just about the french
35:55market and maybe just the northern
35:58and we're like no think all france think
36:00all you think global
36:02and and that that means you've got to
36:04rethink your vision and strategy
36:05and and your financials and your go to
36:09everything flows from the size and scale
36:11and speed that you want to go
36:13to the scale but if you are truly
36:16differentiated say you're working on
36:18some new fourth industrial revolution
36:19technology that's never been done in the
36:21and you really have done your research
36:23and homework you should want to go big
36:26and so we encourage people to think big
36:28but you've got to then
36:30scale everything associated with the the
36:33and its features and financials and go
36:35to market strategy and everything else
36:37to to go big you know phasing in a
36:40strategy smart in a smart way you know
36:44region by region country by country
36:46because you have different laws in
36:47different countries that would allow you
36:48go into to go into their markets
36:50and so that gets at the scaling
36:52complexity is where can you go
36:54where should you go in what order and we
36:56see startup folks struggling with that
36:58first even conceptualizing going big and
37:02starting to struggle to think through
37:04which regions which countries in which
37:07yeah no it's it's it's absolutely it's
37:09absolutely uh it's absolutely true
37:11all right so that's that's the top ten
37:13well roughly the top ten lists
37:15i think it was really good we're gonna
37:16actually shift over some questions we
37:18got some great questions
37:19coming in from from the from the
37:23so the the first one is is really
37:25related to some of your experience
37:28at big companies but also working with
37:30startups and you already alluded a
37:32little bit to the difference between
37:34being an intrapreneur working at a big
37:36company but trying to be but working to
37:38be entrepreneur and an
37:39entrepreneur when we talked a little bit
37:41about product development stuff like
37:43what are some other you know big
37:46between entrepreneurship and
37:48entrepreneurship especially
37:50vis-a-vis folks that might want to
37:53from being you know in in a big company
37:55to starting their own company because
37:56they think they've got a great idea
37:59yeah you know i've seen it go both ways
38:01actually i've been on the acquiring side
38:03where i've had leaders
38:04of startups that we acquired report to
38:07and that was interesting because that's
38:08a different culture set and mentality of
38:10coming into a big co
38:12but then also at big companies you know
38:15use microsoft as an example everyone
38:18wanted to go do a startup
38:19and and so then the question is do they
38:21want to give their ideas to microsoft
38:22you know their best ideas can they go
38:24work on them will microsoft support them
38:26which microsoft is pretty good at you
38:28know listening to ideas and seeing if it
38:30was a new feature for a product or a new
38:32whole new product um or does the
38:35individual want to save something
38:37uh special for themselves and go do a
38:38startup and and i've seen people go do
38:41startups and come back to big cos
38:42you know you know we call them retreads
38:47they go off to a startup come back but
38:49the idea that they could go off and do a
38:51startup was often a dream for them
38:53and because they felt like they
38:55understood enough of the elements
38:57having developed product in a big
38:58company that they could
39:00go and adapt to a startup now it's
39:02there's always that transition period of
39:05to scale down and realize you're going
39:07to have fewer people fewer resources you
39:09know i think a lot of the things they
39:11they miss or that they they're surprised
39:13that they lack is the
39:14the financial support the the sales and
39:17marketing support that they had in a big
39:19you know they may have they were
39:20probably a specialist in a product
39:22area or technology area but they didn't
39:24realize how much support they were
39:26getting from the big co as they were
39:27developing product in a big co
39:29so as soon as you go to startup you need
39:31to rely upon an ecosystem more
39:33you may not be able to build out in a
39:34startup all the people and all the
39:36resources you need you may not hire a
39:38manager leader first right away out of
39:40the shoot you know that may come later
39:43cfo help um that's more on loan that's
39:47than being able to hire cfo immediately
39:49so you have to do a lot more of
39:51all the different aspects on your own
39:53when you move to a startup
39:55um the only thing i'd say about a big co
39:57is they need help with innovation
39:58in in entrepreneurship you know so you
40:02intrapreneurship and one of the ways i
40:04started working with stanford originally
40:06was was having stanford come to
40:07microsoft and think through
40:09how could we apply internal venture
40:11capital gates to product development
40:14because within a big co you start to
40:15lose sort of that um
40:17sometimes that cutting edge
40:18entrepreneurial spirit
40:20in really thinking through you've got to
40:22have the product the financials and the
40:23marketing all together before
40:25even a big co should be funding the
40:28so you've got that that dynamic going on
40:30internally so so a lot to talk about
40:33you know big ho's acquiring startups
40:35that there's a dynamic there
40:37people leaving a big code to go do a
40:38startup you know you could think about
40:40some that have been successful
40:42um expedia was one from microsoft um
40:45and then also just creating the
40:47entrepreneurial spirit within a big co
40:49you know this intrapreneurism is is a an
40:53yeah you know one of the things that i i
40:57is most surprising when we're when we're
41:00doing our entrepreneurial education
41:02um programs when we when we meet with
41:06after many years decades in a in a large
41:11is just how scary it is
41:14to start your own company and to do this
41:18when you're sitting there worried about
41:21because that's now your thing when
41:23you're taking money out of your
41:25personal checking account to pay people
41:28the pay period is up and people have to
41:30get paid um to realize that
41:32all of those support mechanisms around
41:36around marketing around financials
41:39was always sort of in the background you
41:42might you kind of knew it was there but
41:44how much it was relied upon those are
41:48and and look being an entrepreneur being
41:50a founder is one of the greatest
41:52experiences of my life
41:54but it is it's scary
41:57at all it's it's a roller coaster and
42:00and and i think that's one of the things
42:02that i think is is biggest about that
42:04about that culture difference
42:05all right we're gonna we're gonna go um
42:06through a few more questions that have
42:09and some that i that i know that you
42:10have some experience with there's a
42:14you know precautions about establishing
42:15an entrepreneurial venture and
42:17you know developing countries like nepal
42:20uh i know you've done some work on uh
42:22on entrepreneurship and startup with the
42:23u.n and afghanistan can you talk a
42:25little bit about that
42:26yeah you know um well first of all
42:31startups in a developing country are a
42:33way to really stabilize an economy and
42:35to create jobs and so i think it should
42:37a huge focus and priority for
42:39governments in developing post-conflict
42:42it is in some it's not as much in others
42:44i think it should be
42:46now once you do a startup there you know
42:50there may not be the infrastructure or
42:52the ecosystem that could support
42:55um you know we see that that the
42:57startups are a little bit
42:58hanging on their own you know they don't
43:00have a silicon valley set of
43:02you know part-time cfos you can bring in
43:04or sales and marketing people or even
43:06just peers colleagues that where you can
43:10whether it's in your space or your
43:12product space or not
43:13it's it's who do you talk to about this
43:17you know we've we've looked at engineers
43:20women female engineers and and started
43:22teaching them things like artificial
43:26and then had some coaches some
43:27professors particularly out of japan
43:30and be able to coach them on artificial
43:31intelligence and have them think about
43:34could be translated into products and
43:37services in afghanistan
43:39and and it's just you know it's just
43:40like blazing a new trail
43:42um to try to get this to happen but the
43:45the the women engineers are so excited
43:48be thinking about this and being able to
43:50see how to make this happen
43:52that they are really ambitious and
43:53passionate um and to stanford's credit
43:56to give kudos to stanford stanford
43:58modules on innovation and
44:00entrepreneurship to be used for free
44:01for for people um going through these un
44:05you know there's some really great
44:07entrepreneurial work going on
44:09in other parts of the world as well
44:11outside of afghanistan iraq
44:12parts of africa um so you know kudos to
44:16the u.n for driving this
44:18not just for women but especially for
44:21all all entrepreneurs that are out there
44:23on their own in developing countries and
44:25um and in post-conflict countries i
44:27would say they need to think globally
44:30partnerships and for mentoring and
44:32coaching um so they need to think out of
44:34their region to get help
44:36if they're going to be successful at
44:37least regionally if not globally to
44:39really great experts to help coach them
44:43sure yeah um all right back to one of
44:47one of your uh uh one of your favorite
44:50how do you choose an effective
44:52leadership or executive team for your
44:55yeah well you know again it starts with
44:59you know it's i you know you've got to
45:01think about this leader as being someone
45:03knows the technology enough to work with
45:05the product folks so they may have a
45:08technical background a lot of me and and
45:10yet they're bold and brash enough to be
45:12able to go stand in front of venture
45:14capitalists and sell their idea and get
45:16if that's the way they want to do it or
45:17angel investors or or
45:19be smart enough to try to figure out how
45:21to bootstrap it with you know friends
45:23um and then they have to translate into
45:27execution mode of being able to scale
45:30most people don't have all three of
45:32those parts you know are all those
45:35and and so is it a combination i mean
45:39they're more successful with a one-two
45:43i grew up in intel intel corporation was
45:45great it had andy grove
45:46a visionary technologist great with
45:48business and craig barrett who was an
45:50operations guy who could execute like
45:52crazy you think of apple they had it had
45:56and and um tim cook and you know now
45:59you know jobs jobs is gone um and and
46:02cook is there and so
46:04you know even microsoft when it was bill
46:06gates and steve ballmer there was this
46:07kind of one-two punch and so it may not
46:09just be one person who can do it all
46:10you got to build a team that complements
46:14starting with the leaders but then
46:16really thinking through the team itself
46:18you know who's going to be the best
46:19chief technology officer who's going to
46:21eventually move into sales and marketing
46:23and finances and and is the chemistry
46:26right what criteria do you want from
46:28each of these leaders and then what's
46:29the culture and value set that you're
46:31all going to agree to
46:32you know at least some team charter if
46:35let alone identifying the values and
46:38observable cultural behaviors you want
46:40and the organization as it starts to
46:42grow that proactive piece will be
46:45really important in serving the startup
46:46well doing it up front
46:48sooner than later than than trying to
46:50you know retrofit it afterwards
46:52but the way i like to think about
46:54startup people is um
46:56the the term and i don't know if i
46:58created it or borrowed it so i'm sorry i
47:00don't really know this
47:01i don't remember the source of it but
47:04you can envision it you can you can sell
47:08engineer it and and execute with
47:12excellence on it to productize it and
47:15for one person or even a an effective
47:18set of of team uh members to be able to
47:22yeah yeah totally totally all right um
47:25so uh somewhat connected to this um
47:28and and and i'll give my viewpoint on
47:30this first and and we'll hear what you
47:32think you know how can someone from a
47:33non-tech background start a company any
47:35suggestions on where and how to start
47:38and i think you know we had talked
47:39before about the importance of
47:40understanding customers
47:42and very often folks that are non-tech
47:45are really great at understanding
47:48really great at knowing what that market
47:49need is and so therefore
47:51i i would say a non-tech person starts
47:54with really leveraging your skills
47:56around knowing customers and what
47:58customer pain points really
48:00are and how to potentially solve that
48:03burning need that hair on fire need
48:07that a customer has and then you
48:08surround yourself with
48:10the necessary technical folks to deliver
48:14on that need totally agree i think it
48:17starts with customer and going after
48:19these things that maybe the
48:21you know the more serious technical
48:22people don't feel as comfortable doing
48:24um you know it is the customer need it
48:27of talking customers creating personas
48:30thinking through the competition the
48:32you know those all those pieces that are
48:33so needed up front that then complement
48:35what the technical people can go do
48:37i do think a non-technical person can be
48:39very successful but they need to have
48:40credibility with the technical people
48:42or it may not work so they've got to
48:44know enough about the technology be able
48:47and then also in the financials of
48:48course be able to look at the financial
48:51and make those decisions those
48:53assumptions that go into the financials
48:55that are both business related and
48:56technical related so they're almost a
49:00non-technical and technical and bringing
49:02it all together and they're they're
49:03they're joiners they're connectors
49:05um and it happens at big coast too
49:07that's what a product manager does they
49:09may not be fully technical
49:10but they are the bridge between the the
49:12vision and strategy and all these
49:14pieces that need to happen around go to
49:16market and financials and the technology
49:18people who are building the product
49:21yeah i know like managing that prd right
49:23uh that product requirements document
49:24totally yep um i guess
49:28somewhat connected to this as well uh
49:30how does all this change
49:31if you're offering a service rather than
49:34and does it change i think it does
49:38there's a different service mentality
49:40that's needed um you know it's not so
49:42much about product design and
49:43development it's more about
49:45ongoing service and consumption of
49:48the business model's different the which
49:50means the financials are different the
49:51go to market is different
49:52and so it's just it's just a different
49:55vein that needs to be there's a little
49:56bit of a switch a context switch that
50:00um and we see this at boeing i mean
50:01boeing has a services organization where
50:04you know it looks like there's a 50
50:05billion dollar revenue market there for
50:07services you know maintenance
50:08upgrades of planes training pilots all
50:11this stuff going hasn't really been
50:12involved in in the past
50:14but you know as we work with the the bgs
50:18global services group it's a different
50:20mentality and one thing they always keep
50:23hey we've gotta we've gotta inculcate a
50:26it's different we're not like boeing
50:28commercial or boeing defense in space
50:30who are designing and developing
50:32commercial aircraft you know jet
50:35um vehicles it is it is all about a
50:39mentality of upgrades and maintenance
50:41and services that we can provide to
50:42customers in an ongoing way
50:44so it's it is a it is a little bit of a
50:46context switch and everything has to
50:47flow with that mentality
50:54how do you validate a good idea
50:58oh yeah i think people have a good idea
51:01they've gotten some kudos for a good
51:02idea and they call it good
51:04you know and then and then they keep
51:06boldly going with it and
51:07and sort of testing but but even not
51:10listening to people who might question
51:11it over time because they're pretty
51:14and you kind of need that to be
51:16successful in a startup you need someone
51:17who's pretty bold and brash and going to
51:19you know carry forward because there's
51:21so many factors that can go against you
51:23at the same time you know i'll take a
51:25page from andy grove our ceo from intel
51:28you know he wrote a book on this only
51:29the paranoid survive so
51:31how do you be paranoid and go test your
51:34with many customers in different
51:37segments that you plan to go into
51:38how do you create personas how do you
51:41where you really think the product is
51:43going to play out and you can validate
51:46um you go talk to experts go look at the
51:50go go to even people outside of the
51:52industry and see if they think it's a
51:54it's amazing how much people will share
51:56in the entrepreneurial world
51:58i mean everyone's worried oh no i
51:59shouldn't share my ideas someone's going
52:02it's actually that the more people you
52:04talk to and get feedback to validate
52:07and you share that you find new partners
52:10and you find you get great advice
52:11and and they're they're probably not
52:12going to steal your idea you can you can
52:15create an mba if you're really worried
52:17but if your idea is stealable
52:20just by sharing it then you probably
52:23don't have enough intellectual property
52:25protection you probably don't have
52:27you know trade secret protection or
52:28anything it will be stolen by someone
52:31eventually yeah or if if you're that
52:34scared about it you know what one of the
52:36other things is i actually think the
52:38is almost somewhat misphrased in that
52:41you don't validate a good idea
52:43others validate your idea
52:46yeah and it's true i think you know if
52:48you have a good idea
52:50you have some what we like to refer to
52:51as secret sauce right there's some
52:53secret sauce you have
52:54you're probably not going to give away
52:55all the details of it but you're sharing
52:59and if someone can replicate your secret
53:01sauce well probably not
53:02um and just to what you're saying i
53:05think mike is is you
53:06you don't validate everyone else does
53:08and you've got to go do the due
53:09diligence so you've got to have
53:11you do or someone on your team's got to
53:14and this is where again someone who's
53:16maybe non-technical can go do this or
53:18someone who's technical and maybe
53:20um is golden because maybe they've
53:21gotten a technical mba or
53:23they have some of that business acumen
53:24and business savvy can go out and do
53:28so two last quick questions um how does
53:31an individual introduce and encourage
53:33intrapreneurship in a company and i know
53:36decades doing this exact thing yeah
53:40well you know i had a um well i kind of
53:43had a poster child at microsoft that i
53:46um we spent microsoft a lot of money
53:48tens of millions on development of a
53:50product which was the original surface
53:52if you remember the original surface
53:54wasn't a laptop it was a
53:56coffee table and and it could do a few
53:58things it could absorb your photos off
54:01and you know it could do certain things
54:05you know it was it was technology
54:06because it was proving out some new
54:09and and so the poster child was that you
54:11know should we spend tens of millions to
54:13on something like that when there really
54:15wasn't a market for it
54:17you know it wasn't it could be
54:18productized but there was no scale
54:20no one no one's buying it it ended up
54:23um cell phone stores and you know where
54:27or doctor's offices you know i don't
54:29know if any of you on the line have an
54:30original surface the coffee table
54:32it's pr probably not it's in a museum so
54:35it it's it's got to be you know
54:39it can scale and you can introduce ideas
54:42uh within a company to say look we we've
54:44got to be careful with shareholder money
54:46we shouldn't do r d just for r d sake
54:48let's really be smart about bringing
54:50together the product idea the marketing
54:54and so that's what we did is bring
54:55together a team up front of financial
54:59go to market people and product people
55:01and said let's get smarter up front
55:02about the product idea
55:04get that signed off in a series of gates
55:07um within a company like microsoft
55:09and and then we know that we're we're
55:11better um with a viable product for the
55:14if we just you know spend money on
55:16creating technology for technology's
55:18all that technology that was created was
55:20used and carried forward and the name
55:21surface that was trademarked is
55:23well you know it's used in a big way so
55:26it wasn't all lost it was just that we
55:28felt we could do it better
55:29than the way we were doing it and so i
55:31think you know being able to explain
55:33that story and get people bought into
55:34that concept for entrepreneurism is
55:36is really vital if you're doing this in
55:40totally um so last question quick answer
55:43my thoughts as well when's it time to
55:46from a startup versus pivoting oh
55:50wow you know i've seen startups pivot a
55:53and you know i think when you see that
55:55the financials don't work and the
55:56product's not working or there's someone
55:59who's taken over in um and you just you
56:02know you kind of run up against the wall
56:04you're not you're not seeing customers
56:07gravitate towards you or
56:09it's it's impossible to acquire them
56:12anymore you're starting to see it slow
56:14no matter what you try it's not working
56:16um i think people should
56:18should not be afraid of failure you know
56:21you should iterate rapid prototype when
56:23you're in a startup so you learn from
56:24failure fast and pivot
56:26you know as you need to not so fast
56:27you're whiplashing your entire team
56:29but pivot as you need to and do
56:31everything you can to be successful
56:33but then you know also not be afraid to
56:35walk away if you have to
56:37the most successful entrepreneurs have
56:39failed multiple times
56:40and so i think we as humans have this
56:42fear of failure and and
56:44we you know it's just learning it's all
56:47bill gates always said the best learning
56:49is when we fail it's not when we're
56:50successful we don't learn enough
56:52it's it's when you fail for sure you
56:54know i i guess i would say you can pivot
56:56forever you can bootstrap forever
56:58when the passion's gone that's when you
57:03so um in that line i want to thank
57:07dr michael force from boeing for joining
57:11for those that are out there if you're
57:12looking for more help in launching your
57:15check out our idea to market online
57:17course which is linked
57:18in your webinar console and once again
57:22thanks michael for joining us today it's
57:24really been a pleasure thank you mike
57:27thanks for inviting me great to be here
57:29i'm just unplugged as a resource here
57:31for anyone who needs help so um glad
57:34glad to be with you all
57:35awesome hannah thank you all for joining
57:40i think this was absolutely fabulous
57:43we've heard from some of our viewers
57:47both extremely quotable so
57:50just fyi again thank you all for joining
57:55um thank you fors and lepik this was
57:59and we look forward to
58:02talking to you all again thank you all
58:05and have a great day
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