Building Company Culture: From Start Up to Scale Up

Stanford Online2020-09-15

3K views|3 years ago

💫 Short Summary

The video features discussions on building a strong company culture by experts Huggy Rao and John Lilly from Stanford University. They emphasize aligning values with organizational practices, fostering diversity and inclusion, and adapting to remote work challenges. Examples from companies like Google, Apple, and Mozilla illustrate the impact of culture on decision-making and success. Key points include maintaining communication, transparency, and intentionality in articulating goals to shape a cohesive work environment. The importance of leadership, hiring the right people, and celebrating individuals to drive cultural change is also highlighted. Overall, the video stresses the significance of nurturing a positive and collaborative culture for organizational growth and success.

✨ Highlights

📊 Transcript

✦

Huggy Rao and John Lilly: Education and Industry Experts.

00:00

Huggy Rao is a professor at Stanford University, known for his bestselling book 'Scaling Up Excellence' co-authored with Bob Sutton.

John Lilly, a Stanford University graduate, founded Reactivity and has held leadership positions at Mozilla and Greylock Ventures.

Huggy has served as an editor for scientific journals and is highly respected in the field of organizational behavior.

John Lilly teaches a class on company culture at Stanford Business School, emphasizing the importance of building a strong foundation for startups.

✦

Importance of Company Culture in Decision-making and Values.

04:07

Company culture influences decision-making and values within an organization.

Values shape cultural norms, either reinforcing or undermining the values.

The relationship between values, culture, and decision-making can create a virtuous or vicious cycle based on intentionality.

Actions and decisions within a company reflect its values, ultimately shaping its culture.

✦

Importance of company culture in shaping behavior and determining success.

06:45

Culture reinforces values and beliefs within the organization.

Culture and strategy are interdependent for organizational success.

Culture should not be relied on solely, but should work in conjunction with a well-defined strategy.

Strong company culture is essential for the success of the organization.

✦

Importance of creating an organization that can operate against its own strategy.

09:06

Developing a culture of understanding and leadership is crucial for success.

Joining Mozilla initially posed challenges due to not aligning with existing ethos and culture.

By investing in understanding the organization and contributing to the culture, credibility was gained to suggest improvements.

Driving change within an organization requires building relationships and adapting to the existing culture.

✦

The importance of mission-driven values in shaping organizational culture at Mozilla.

10:32

Mozilla's mission is focused on ensuring a strong internet for everyone, not just big companies.

Core values at Mozilla include transparency, contribution from people worldwide, and multiculturalism.

Implementing systems for interaction in multiple languages was a significant challenge that required clear communication and transparency.

Board meetings at Mozilla involved thorough discussions to ensure understanding and participation in decision-making processes.

✦

Importance of Openness and Transparency in the Workplace.

12:37

Placing desk in common area to encourage interaction with employees.

Evaluating company culture when making investment decisions.

Challenge of aligning values between culture and investments.

Difficulty of fully understanding company culture from an external perspective.

✦

Importance of understanding a company's culture through interaction with founders.

16:32

Observing physical office spaces is not enough to understand a company fully.

Significance of talking to founders and learning about their thought processes.

Startups need adaptable strategies to navigate crises like the COVID-19 pandemic.

✦

Companies adapting to COVID-19 challenges differently based on scale and momentum.

17:40

Established customer momentum companies are faring better than those searching for product-market fit.

CEOs facing uncertainties around returning to the office and realizing need for new language in work discussions.

Figma CEO Dylan found employees grieving the past and conducted surveys to understand sentiments and preferences for the future.

✦

Importance of Clarity and Company Culture in Remote Work Environment during Uncertain Times.

20:03

Companies like Figma are allowing remote work until June and prioritizing the development of a strong company culture.

Many companies are recognizing the importance of reinvesting in employee well-being and connection, transitioning from the initial excitement of remote work to addressing challenges.

Open communication and adaptability are crucial in remote work environments, with companies like Google, Stripe, and Coinbase setting examples.

While building culture remotely is a challenge, face-to-face interactions remain essential for fostering a strong company culture.

✦

Challenges of building company culture remotely.

22:10

In-person interactions are crucial for serendipitous connections and strong culture.

Remote work can lead to lack of transparency in decision-making processes.

Companies like Gumroad have successfully transitioned by documenting everything and being explicit about culture.

Zoom calls are more transactional and lack informal interactions compared to office settings.

✦

Importance of investing in company culture for success in remote work environments.

25:07

Examples of companies like Gumroad and WordPress thriving remotely by maintaining communication and reinforcing company values.

Building a strong culture helps prevent violations such as decisions made without data, against customer interests, or lacking transparency.

A strong culture ensures everyone knows the right actions to take, fostering a cohesive work environment.

Differentiating between discomfort and genuine violations is crucial to effectively address issues.

✦

The importance of culture for challenger companies in maintaining competitiveness.

27:51

Netflix's unique culture of self-selection and spikiness shaped employees to meet market demands effectively.

Challenges arise as companies grow in maintaining their distinct culture.

Finding a balance between innovation, agility, and preserving core values is essential for continued success.

✦

Importance of aligning culture with strategic goals for success in a growing company.

28:51

Defining and communicating company values and goals clearly is crucial, especially as more people are hired.

Three key traits for building a successful culture: intentionality in articulating goals, discipline in communication, and adaptability to changing circumstances.

Examples from Facebook's early days show the significance of clear communication and maintaining focus on serving users while evolving with growth.

✦

Importance of Data-Driven Decisions and Emphasizing Good Behaviors

31:12

Decisions should be based on data, customer preferences, and employee insights to drive success in organizations.

Focusing on promoting good behaviors is more effective in shaping organizational culture than solely correcting bad behaviors.

Addressing discrimination in the past and improving diversity and inclusion practices are crucial steps for companies to take.

✦

Importance of Diversity and Inclusion in Companies

35:31

Companies need to articulate reasons for caring about diversity and inclusion beyond just stating it's the right thing to do.

Successful examples of companies increasing diversity by hiring more women.

Need for support structures and giving voice to diverse employees.

Continual effort required to identify and address biases within an organization for meaningful change.

✦

Importance of diversity and progress in companies.

36:45

Tech giants like Google, Apple, and Microsoft have different cultures and values, with Google having an open culture and Apple following a more traditional approach.

Companies are described in terms of their engineering or product management focus, influenced by their founders.

Categorizing cultures in organizations is complex, and scaling in a 'Buddhist way' is suggested as a potential taxonomy method.

✦

Contrasting organizational approaches of Catholic and Buddhist principles using Apple and Google as examples.

39:37

Apple is centralized under Steve Jobs, resembling a Catholic organization.

Google is decentralized, resembling a Buddhist organization that empowers employees to make decisions.

Preference for Buddhist organizations due to emphasis on teaching and alignment of values and operating principles.

Importance of aligning values and principles to effectively address crises.

✦

Importance of communication and transparency in organizations.

41:29

Lack of credibility due to infrequent sharing of thoughts and perspectives.

Mention of a venture firm partner's blog post lacking credibility after 10 years of silence.

Discussion with a Stanford student turned entrepreneur on establishing and preserving organizational culture and equity.

Questions raised about key constructs and processes for maintaining equity within an organization.

✦

Importance of safeguarding equity within an organization.

43:51

Founders and leaders should value different perspectives and avoid being reactive or impatient.

Focus on listening, asking questions, and sharing information to address misunderstandings.

Short and dismissive responses can negatively impact relationships and communication within a team.

Emphasize the value of patience and open dialogue.

✦

Importance of Maintaining a Strong Organizational Culture

47:27

Perception of company culture can differ among employees based on their position within the organization.

Curiosity about people and practicing 'management by walking around' are key strategies for leadership to ensure a cohesive culture.

Hewlett-Packard's approach to management is highlighted as a successful model for maintaining culture as a company expands.

✦

Creating a Collaborative Work Environment

49:13

Emphasizes the significance of sharing work and ideas while having cross-cutting conversations.

Discusses the challenge of building a remote culture and the importance of interacting across different levels within the company.

Stresses the importance of setting clear expectations and having open, non-judgmental conversations to address gaps and facilitate professional growth.

Highlights the role of individuals in shaping company culture and distinguishes it from the influence of investors such as venture capitalists.

✦

Importance of Leadership and Culture Change in CEO Roles.

51:41

Emphasizes the significance of patience, listening, and developing leaders to drive cultural transformation.

Urges the need to focus on building urgency and alignment instead of rushing into leadership decisions.

Recognizes the impact of promoting and hiring choices on shaping organizational culture.

Acknowledges the challenge of shifting ingrained values and suggests celebrating individuals as a way to foster positive cultural change.

✦

Importance of Hiring and Valuing the Right People in Shaping Company Culture.

54:02

Reward systems and job changes are effective tools for influencing culture within a company.

Transitioning from startup to scale-up presents challenges in maintaining a strong company culture.

Understanding the type of culture and reasons behind company actions is crucial for success.

Google and Apple have different approaches to leadership positions and ownership within the company.

✦

Importance of building a strong culture in scaling a startup.

56:20

Leaders should focus on cultivating a positive environment and asking helpful questions to engage and mobilize their teams effectively.

Draining energy from others can hinder progress.

Leaving a positive impact on people was stressed.

Expressions of gratitude towards the speaker and attendees for their participation and insightful questions.

✦

Importance of asking helpful questions in creating a positive company culture.

59:02

Tracking the ratio of questions to statements for self-awareness and insight.

Being a culture propagator through asking questions and engaging with others.

Audience thanked for participation and encouraged to explore a course on building company culture.

Session recorded for review, ending with a farewell message from California.

00:00huggy rao is the atoll mcbean professor

00:03of organizational behavior and human

00:04resources

00:05graduate school of business and

00:06professor by courtesy of sociology at

00:09stanford university

00:10his most recent book co-authored with

00:12bob sutton

00:13is scaling up excellence which is a wall

00:15street journal bestseller and was

00:17included in the best business books to

00:19read in 2014 by

00:20financial times inc magazine amazon

00:23forbes

00:24washington post and the library journal

00:26just basically everywhere

00:28his research has been published in

00:30numerous scientific journals and he has

00:32served as the editor of administrative

00:34science

00:35quarterly and has been a member of the

00:37editorial boards of american journal of

00:39sociology

00:40and organization science and academy of

00:42management review

00:44now you guys have heard me introduce

00:45huggy before i could go on and on with

00:47all the

00:48numbers and the acronyms behind his name

00:50but he's just a really

00:52awesome person and guy and i'm so glad

00:54that you're here with us today huggy

00:56it's always a pleasure and with that

00:58thank you so very much

00:59robin for that gracious and very

01:04thank you so much for your gracious and

01:06generous introduction robin

01:08i'm so glad you teed up scaling up

01:10excellence i should add

01:12that my wonderful co-author collaborator

01:15and john's and mine's collective friend

01:18bob sutton

01:19he's also on the webinar as a listener

01:22so he tells me

01:24today we're very very fortunate to have

01:27john lilly visitors now how do i

01:30describe

01:31john lilly uh put simply

01:34uh john is you know

01:37one of the most interesting people i've

01:39really met in the

01:41valley john is a computer science

01:45undergrad and a master's in computer

01:46science

01:47from stanford university then founded

01:50his own company reactivity

01:52was the ceo who led mozilla particularly

01:56the introduction and implementation of

01:58firefox

01:59subsequently after that he served as a

02:02partner in greylock

02:03ventures for several years and today he

02:06advised the ceos and the lied

02:09but most of all i'm personally very

02:11grateful to john

02:12because john actually sets aside some

02:15time

02:16to teach a class on building company

02:18culture

02:19from startup to scale up at the stanford

02:22business school

02:23along with another compadre suje

02:26jaswa the three of us come to class

02:30and what we do is we challenge students

02:34and we all disagree and the students

02:37have a lot of fun

02:38but the amazing thing about john is john

02:41on the one hand is very attentive to

02:43research

02:44and at the same time very very informed

02:47about ground ground-level realities so

02:50he is able to marry

02:52both clean models and dirty hands

02:55we're very thankful to you john welcome

02:59thanks again it's good to see you thank

03:02you

03:02so to our listeners we're very grateful

03:05to all of you for having set aside

03:07time as robin telegraphed i want to make

03:11this a conversation

03:12and the way we'll make it a conversation

03:14is i'll tea up a few questions with john

03:18so and then after that i'd very much

03:21encourage you to use the chat option

03:23to write out your questions and then

03:26we'll actually

03:27uh you know respond to those questions

03:30as well

03:31just so that all of you are emphatically

03:33clear

03:35both john and i treat questions as gifts

03:38not as interruptions so please please

03:41use the chat option

03:43the more questions the better and we'll

03:46respond to them

03:47um you know as soon as

03:51robin triages them for us in meaningful

03:54chance

03:55wonderful so john let's actually begin

03:58our conversation

04:00what is company culture you know you've

04:02been a vc you've been a ceo

04:05you know when you walk into a startup

04:07how do you sense its culture

04:09like things telegraph you that this is

04:12culture

04:14sure yeah i think culture's

04:15misunderstood i think most people it's a

04:17pretty squishy term i think most people

04:19don't totally understand what it means

04:20um i think of it in two different ways i

04:23think of it one one of the definitions i

04:24think about it is it's the way you make

04:26decisions

04:27especially when the leaders or the

04:29founders aren't in the room

04:31so it's the way that things really

04:33happen in an organization that's one of

04:34the things

04:35another way i say it sometimes is that

04:37it's the company values

04:39realized or operationalized so it's it's

04:42the

04:42values in action and that actually leads

04:45you to this other thing which is that

04:47it tends to be this this reinforcing

04:49cycle so

04:51you'll tend to have values that are

04:52intentional and

04:54or there is some degree of intentional

04:56those will affect how you build the

04:58cultural

04:59norms in your company and those cultural

05:01norms will either

05:02reinforce the values or undermine the

05:04values this time of this

05:06this virtuous or vicious cycle uh but

05:08it's a lot around intentionality and so

05:10you know i think a lot of people like to

05:11say like

05:12if uh you know you build your culture or

05:14it builds you at some level so

05:16that's something i think about it's like

05:17how how you do things how you make

05:19decisions

05:19and that's the the real the reality of

05:22your values

05:24i love the way you've just described it

05:27you build culture

05:28culture builds you can you just expand

05:30on that just a little bit please

05:32what does building culture mean john and

05:35how does culture build you or me if we

05:37are members

05:38of the same organization sure yeah like

05:41the um

05:42you know uh one like people

05:46no one will say everyone will tell you

05:48they don't like politics and

05:49organizations for example

05:50and so you might have a value that well

05:52we're a politic

05:53free organization which is basically an

05:56oxymoron there's no politics free

05:57organizations but

05:59to the degree that you uh believe in

06:01transparency and that kind of stuff

06:03that that you might say you believe and

06:06there's no politics but then to the

06:07degree that you let politics enter into

06:10decision making you know you'll see that

06:12start to

06:13grow because people are quite smart

06:14about how to how things

06:16actually happen how to get things done

06:18and then that will tend to erode the

06:20build

06:21erode the belief that what you say your

06:23values are actually your values and so

06:26it's you know it's it's just one simple

06:28example but

06:29the the way you do things will tend to

06:32either reinforce

06:33what you say you are or undermine it and

06:36everyone is

06:37i think smart enough to see that

06:39everyone is smart enough to see that

06:41so often um not just in the valley but

06:44everywhere

06:45people talk about culture eats strategy

06:48for breakfast

06:50what do people mean by that what's your

06:52take and if i'm a founder

06:55when do i think of culture after

06:57deciding my strategy

06:59after designing my the beta version of

07:01my product when do i begin to think of

07:03culture

07:05yeah this is another this is another

07:07motto that i think um takes some

07:08explaining because i i think that

07:10it's um it's a little bit uh people rely

07:13on it too much and they say well

07:14this is why we have a super nice culture

07:17a super kind culture

07:19and i think what you're really saying is

07:20that what what i

07:22what i take away from it when you say

07:24culturally strategy for breakfast is

07:26if you build the right kind of company

07:28that tends to grow the right

07:30kind of people and leaders in all levels

07:32whether it's

07:33just leaders at the leaf level or

07:34leaders in the management level

07:36then you will tend to get reinforcing

07:39and strong

07:39action in in the right ways now but

07:43that means each of them will be able to

07:45uh

07:46operate against the strategy but you

07:49can't i mean you can't have culture

07:50without a strategy you can't have

07:51strategy without a culture you need you

07:53need both things to operate in concert

07:55but what you're really trying to figure

07:56out is like how do i create an

07:57organization

07:58that can operate against the strategy

08:02itself and how and

08:03create strategies a good time so if i

08:04can create an organization with

08:06leadership

08:08who understands why we're doing what

08:10we're doing and can make changes

08:12and can change strategy and tactics over

08:14time obviously that's better than having

08:16one single source of strategy all the

08:18time and so

08:20you're really talking about culture to

08:21develop people and leaders

08:23and decision making capabilities

08:26that that's what they can execute in a

08:28strategy that's executing strategy

08:31now you know allow me to please take you

08:33to mozilla

08:34you're the new ceo there you've just

08:36taken over the company

08:38how did you go about addressing the

08:40issue of culture and strategy

08:42when you took over at mozilla for

08:44example

08:45well i didn't take over in mozilla um i

08:48joined mozilla so mozilla had this long

08:50long history of being a startup an open

08:53source

08:54project that had been going for a long

08:56time for

08:57eight years or something like that by

08:58the time i i joined and then he had just

09:00launched firefox and just started to be

09:02successful

09:03and i joined in a role that wasn't a

09:05particular leadership role i

09:06i was um on the executive team but i

09:08didn't have a i didn't have much of a

09:10team

09:10i um i wasn't the ceo and in fact

09:14when i joined like there were a lot of

09:16things that i said that were

09:18they were wrong and really provoked a

09:19lot of antibodies uh

09:21you know i started saying things that

09:23didn't quite match the ethos or the

09:25mission or the

09:26other culture of the place and very

09:27quickly people explained to me why that

09:29was

09:29you know um apostate and horrible that i

09:33could think that stuff it's like holy

09:34smokes like who is this guy is a suit

09:37and so i had to figure out how to how to

09:39number one understand the organization

09:41understand the cultural norm some of it

09:43was written and some of it and a lot of

09:44it wasn't like any organization

09:46and then but a lot of it's just like you

09:48have to walk around and talk to people

09:49and understand why they're there and

09:51what what they're doing

09:52and over times i started started to

09:55invest in

09:56my understanding of culture and invest

09:57in my contributions to the culture

09:59then i got enough of you know a

10:01so-called bank account of credibility so

10:04that i could

10:04start to say well i think that if we we

10:06could be stronger if we did this or that

10:08and i eventually became the ceo um but

10:11that was kind of an outgrowth of

10:12leadership it was it wasn't it was a

10:14consequence

10:15more than it was um more than wasn't

10:17triggered to be honest with you so

10:18by the time that i was became ceo

10:21mitchell and i had been running the

10:22organization together for

10:24for quite some time um but when i got

10:27there it was about 12

10:28employees and quickly grew to maybe 50

10:31that first year

10:32in 2005 when firefox was growing and by

10:34the time i left there's about

10:35four or 500 employees but

10:39um the mozilla always understood its

10:42mission

10:43and understanding your missions are a

10:44huge step towards understanding how to

10:46build culture because

10:48you've got mission and you've got

10:49operating principles and values about

10:51how you

10:52go attack the mission and then once you

10:54start to

10:55start to if you can understand mission

10:58super clearly mozilla's mission is just

11:00to make sure that the internet

11:01is strong and belongs to everyone not

11:03just big companies

11:04they say oh well that mission implies

11:06these values which are

11:08people have to understand what we're

11:09doing so there must be transparency

11:11people need to

11:12people should be able to contribute no

11:14matter where they live in the world that

11:15means we must be

11:16multicultural and multi-multilingual um

11:19you know so there's all these values

11:21and once you understand these values

11:22that very very clearly starts to say

11:25well

11:25if we if it has to be multi-uh lingual

11:28multicultural multi-time zone

11:30that means we have to have um video

11:33that's available to for all

11:34all hands all the time and this was in

11:362005 and that was a little bit hard to

11:37do

11:38now you can obviously do it um you know

11:40it meant that

11:41you know we had to have uh you know cl

11:45clear systems for how you interact in

11:47multiple languages for example

11:49uh meant that for bohr me because we

11:51believed in transparency is a value

11:53because only with information can you

11:55participate

11:56um you know when you had board meetings

11:58i would spend time and go through the

12:00board deck

12:01for hours for anybody who wanted to

12:02understand it and wanted to see it and

12:04so

12:05i think that understanding mission and

12:07um

12:09mission leads to values values leads to

12:11cultural

12:12and the specifics of the mechanics um

12:15and then there's just day-to-day stuff

12:17so you know i put

12:18i think i've told you before like uh as

12:21we grew

12:22people like any organization people

12:23start to feel alienated from the

12:24organization

12:25and alienate from leadership as you

12:27start to get levels in between

12:28uh individuals and leadership and so

12:32you know one of the things i did when we

12:33moved to new office a new bigger kind of

12:35a little bit alienating office i stuck

12:37my desk and i had my stand-up desk that

12:39i kind of stuck in the middle of a

12:40hallway

12:41so that as people people walked in

12:45like i was i was standing up and working

12:47and you couldn't help but make contact

12:48i'd make eye contact with me if you make

12:50eye contact with somebody you're

12:52pretty likely to say hi because it's

12:53awkward if you don't and

12:55and so suddenly now you're everybody's

12:56talking to the ceo in ways that maybe

12:58you wouldn't

12:59if the ceo is off in a corner in the

13:01office and so just little things that

13:03um that was a that was a value of

13:05openness and transparency and connection

13:07and any questions okay little things

13:10like that tend to reinforce the values

13:12all the way up

13:13uh to your value stack and then all the

13:14way up to mission after that

13:16lovely example lovely example now let me

13:19take you to let me take you to your vc

13:21incarnation at greylock

13:23i'm sure you must have listened to lots

13:25of pitches from entrepreneurial teams

13:28and as you listen to them you sort of

13:30size up

13:31does their strategy make sense but i

13:33imagine you pay

13:34you paid attention to their culture too

13:37so

13:40how did you address pictures where the

13:42strategy was great but the culture was

13:45if you will somewhat suspect what did

13:47you guys do what did you personally

13:49do did you choose not yet

13:53um yeah i made a lot of mistakes on i

13:56made

13:56a lot of decisions that would have

13:58passed up good investments um for

14:00companies that i thought were

14:01culturally um problematic um

14:04and sometimes that means that the values

14:07of the company don't align with values

14:09that i care about sometimes it means

14:11that

14:11the founder doesn't totally understand

14:13how to build

14:14um connection and culture in their

14:17company

14:18but i would say that i think it's very

14:21like i think it's very very hard to

14:23understand any culture from the outside

14:26i think full stop i think it's hard it's

14:28a different kind of hard to understand

14:29from the inside

14:30but i think that just like understanding

14:32it's impossible to understand anybody

14:34else's relationship

14:35fully i think that for investors on the

14:38outside

14:38you can understand what the founder is

14:40like and you can in

14:42in molly graham who um

14:45you know was uh built up articulated a

14:47bunch of facebook's early culture for

14:49example and then quips after that

14:52you know she likes to say that you know

14:5380 of your culture comes from your

14:55founders

14:55from the things that they care about the

14:57things that they do and partly it's

14:58because they're they're such

14:59strong carriers of culture and

15:02such strong role models and partly

15:04because they just set up all the all the

15:05mechanisms and all the

15:06all the um all the routines um and so

15:10just a lot of it comes to the founder

15:12and so as an investor

15:13well i think i i thought it was very

15:16hard i mean

15:16you have to understand that as soon as

15:18you go in and look at a company quote

15:20look at a company

15:21to visit an office when back when we

15:23could visit offices

15:25um you know to assume that you can

15:27understand anything about what's really

15:29happening by

15:30observing what's happening in physical

15:32space is i think a little ridiculous

15:34and so all you can really do is

15:35understand you can talk to founders

15:38understand why they made the decisions

15:39they made why how they think about

15:41decisions that are in the future and

15:43just spend a lot of time with them

15:44thinking about that

15:45and then you can sometimes understand

15:48the the way that other people on their

15:50team

15:51talk about that stuff and think about

15:53that stuff and the way that they think

15:54about hiring other members of the team

15:56but i think that believing you

15:58understand the culture because you're

15:59because of as you invest i think is

16:01it i think it's quite hard wonderful

16:05wonderful as i i of course have a number

16:07of questions to ask of you

16:09but uh the participants in our webinar

16:11tour uh you know sharing a number of

16:13questions i thought i'd

16:15channel a couple of them so let me begin

16:17with the very first one

16:19how do you manage a situation asks one

16:21of our viewers

16:22when you know there is actually a big

16:26change

16:27uh a situation or a crisis where the

16:30startup could be scaled

16:32due to an unforeseen event like covet

16:36yeah there's not a lot of unseen events

16:40like covet covet is a little bit

16:42uh one of a kind um so

16:46uh let me answer this question in two

16:48ways so basically it's like what do you

16:49do

16:50when something happens it's unforeseen

16:54like like covet and so i would say

16:55there's two categories of things there

16:57are things that are

16:58like unforeseen things that are kind of

17:00workable and there's unforeseen things

17:01that are a little bit like

17:03global pandemic which is i think a

17:05completely

17:06unprecedented thing like for at least in

17:09our work style

17:10let me take the unprecedented stuff

17:12first then we'll come back to the like

17:13more normal um unforeseen things uh what

17:18i would say with covid

17:19is we are all figuring it out together

17:22as we go

17:22and i'm on the boards of eight companies

17:24i guess

17:26and i talk to the leaders of these

17:28companies uh

17:29you know at least every week about how

17:31they're doing it and they're all doing

17:33it

17:33they're all dealing with covent

17:34differently um the companies that

17:37had gotten to some scale and some

17:39momentum

17:40before coven i think are doing the best

17:44the companies that were kind of

17:45wandering around trying to figure out

17:46how to build how to find

17:48customers and how to find right product

17:49market fit that's the most dangerous so

17:51it's at some level

17:52the companies that are earliest are the

17:54ones that are going off and building

17:55product they don't really need to talk

17:56to anybody

17:57like being remote is fine the companies

17:59that are are at scale and have had

18:01customer momentum already are doing fine

18:03it's the ones that are in the middle

18:04that are looking for product market fit

18:07that are in the really most challenging

18:08position

18:10but everybody's situation is different

18:12and um

18:14what i'm i'm learning from the ceos that

18:16i interact with

18:18uh every day as we talk through this

18:20stuff um

18:21figma for example where i'm on the board

18:24dylan the ceo said well we don't

18:26what he realized is that their

18:27management team was talking a lot about

18:28when should we go back to the office

18:31and so they spent a lot of time on

18:33management teams like well should we go

18:34back should we

18:35tell people we're going to go back at

18:36the end of the year or next year or when

18:38should we say that

18:39and what they realized is that they

18:40didn't really have the right language to

18:42talk about this because there's not

18:43it's not clear that there's a back to go

18:45to

18:47and what was clear that became clear to

18:49dylan is that

18:50everybody's grieving the loss of what we

18:51had before

18:53and there were all sorts of different

18:55assumptions about what

18:57next would look like and so they just

19:00did a survey let's say they said let's

19:01ask people

19:02how they're feeling what they're

19:03thinking about what they would do

19:06given choices and let's not assume that

19:09there's

19:10there's going back to what it was like

19:11ever let's think about what we wanted to

19:13be

19:14like in the future um and construct it

19:18going that direction so let's get data

19:20let's think about our back to our values

19:22what do we care about how do we build it

19:24and then let's think about what that

19:25makes sense what makes sense in the

19:26future and so they and then they

19:28they were open about it and they said

19:29well here's what we got here's what

19:31we're thinking about

19:32we'll give you clarity and one of the

19:35other things became clear is that the

19:36people that needed the most clarity

19:38around covid for example were parents

19:41because parents have kids in school um

19:44and school in the united states is very

19:47uncertain

19:48right now like uh you know my

19:49eight-year-old is uh in the room next

19:51door

19:52and so he he'll burst in here at any

19:54moment during our podcast but um

19:56we'll see but every appearance is like

19:58is going through that stuff and so

20:00you know figma said well we'll give you

20:02clarity you don't have to come back to

20:03the office until june

20:05after that here are what we're hearing

20:07about the culture we want to build

20:08and we're going to construct between now

20:10and then we'll construct what the

20:12what the new the new reality is like the

20:15same

20:15yeah i'm hearing the same types of

20:17things from code for america where i'm

20:18on the board it's a non-profit

20:20um you know it's um

20:23i also what i'm also finding is that in

20:25a in a in a situation situation like

20:27this it's lasting for so long

20:29people are it's taken some people a

20:31little while to

20:32settle into the to the understanding

20:34this is going to be

20:36you know a year and so once and so it

20:39takes people

20:40a little while to internalize that this

20:42is the situation over time

20:44and i think that most companies have

20:45gone through this mania

20:48where they said man this is incredible

20:50it's working great

20:51like how great is zoom and there's no

20:53commute

20:54and then you start to realize all the

20:56things that you lost

20:57and and need to reinvest in around

21:00connection and building up the company

21:02that kind of thing

21:03this is kind of a long one way of saying

21:05everybody's sorting this out together

21:07um then there are no models and i do

21:09really

21:11value companies like stripe and coinbase

21:13and figma that are doing this in the

21:14open and even google lately

21:16who said this is our plan it's subject

21:18to change but here's why we're doing it

21:19so that you can we can have this

21:21discussion and talk about it and i think

21:22that the best companies will bring

21:23employees in together so here's a

21:26wonderful question from

21:28one of our viewers you know is culture

21:31face to face can you build culture when

21:33work is remote

21:35and if so how do you do that do you have

21:37any stories any examples is the question

21:41yeah i think that um

21:47so i don't think culture is face to face

21:49i think that

21:50we build cultures uh in any way humans

21:54can

21:54can communicate we build culture what i

21:57think is harder is that

22:00um the percentage of the

22:03the way the ways that things get done

22:06that people can't see

22:08is much higher when you're having a

22:10remote a remote culture potentially much

22:12higher when you have a remote culture

22:13than when you don't

22:15so if you're in the office and you see

22:17leadership make decisions and they

22:19go to meetings they talk right on

22:20whiteboards they have all hands whatever

22:22you can see a lot of the things that

22:24people they might not be formal decision

22:26making

22:28and so when you've got uh remote

22:30cultures

22:31the most aggressive ones like gumroad

22:34for example run by sahel lavinjia

22:36they write down everything and so their

22:39their move to remote

22:40like they have more culture that's

22:42explicit than most companies that are in

22:44person

22:44so they don't rely on the in-person as a

22:46crutch

22:48and so as a result like covet and remote

22:50has been

22:51fine for them um what i found is that

22:55the um that moving to

22:58zoom calls and so i think a lot of

22:59people now are you know your

23:01wall-to-wall zoom and

23:05it's a little bit more transactional

23:07than your typical office environment and

23:09so your office environment

23:11you go in and you waste a lot of time

23:12you'd waste a lot of time

23:14you'd have lunch with people or you chat

23:17with them in the kitchen or

23:18you'd have a lot of down time where you

23:20maybe talked about things that weren't

23:22you know maybe quite important enough to

23:23talk about in the meeting

23:25um and i think that with zoom calls you

23:28tend to say well the purpose of meeting

23:30is x

23:31let's talk about x once we're finished

23:33with x

23:34let's all get off the call and so you're

23:38not

23:38uh you're not doing these uh

23:40serendipitous interactions and so you

23:42tend to be

23:42a little more um uh focused on your

23:46particular group and your particular

23:48project

23:48in the in the connectivity with other

23:50groups outside serendipitous

23:51connectivities

23:52is diminishing and so what i find

23:55what i hear all the companies i'm

23:57interacting with is they're all looking

23:58for

23:59how do we build spaces and time

24:02to to recapture some of that

24:05serendipitous investment

24:07um and that's i think going to be the

24:09key so i would say that the companies

24:10are working best for the ones that

24:12invested

24:12in culture and helping people understand

24:14culture before

24:16we move to this remote world and we've

24:19kind of been drawing down on that bank

24:21account

24:21since shelter in place started and that

24:25you have to reinvest in it now there's

24:27other cultures that have

24:28like i said with gumroad for example or

24:30wordpress that's run but it's been run

24:31remotely by matt mullenwig forever

24:34that have done really well in this way

24:36and they've built these patterns and

24:37routines

24:38for how to connect in mozilla we were

24:42hybrid the whole time we had an office

24:44in mountain view we had offices around

24:45the world

24:46and so we coped by just having a lot of

24:48people on

24:50synchronous communication irc and slack

24:53we had a lot of people

24:54um on calls all the time

24:57and then we just made sure that

24:58everybody understood that they could

24:59travel to see people face to face

25:01anytime they wanted which obviously is

25:02not the situation is today

25:04but you find ways to invest

25:07that's actually very helpful in the

25:09meantime our mischievous colleague bob

25:11sutton has come up with a question

25:13and the question is how do you know when

25:15your culture is being violated and what

25:17do you do

25:20yeah um well violated that's an

25:23interesting word so

25:24if to the extent that you can build

25:28i mean think back to the value stack so

25:29think back to mission

25:31values operating principles and how they

25:34how they should align

25:35and so what you're trying to do is

25:36create situations where

25:38whether or not a founder or leader is in

25:40the room everybody kind of knows what

25:42the right thing to do is

25:44and so when you talk about culture

25:45violations that will tend to be

25:47oh well that person made a decision

25:49without it wasn't data based

25:51or they made that person made a decision

25:53that wasn't in the interests of

25:54customers or that person made a decision

25:57and didn't tell anybody so they weren't

25:59transparent enough

26:00and if you built your culture and if

26:02you've communicated the way things

26:04happen in the right ways if you've built

26:05that

26:06in itself and reinforced enough and told

26:07that story enough then everybody will

26:09say well that's not the way we do things

26:11here

26:12and when you say that's not the way we

26:13do things here sometimes that means

26:15you're making me uncomfortable and so

26:17you need to kind of disentangle

26:19discomfort from genuine genuine

26:22violation

26:23but but that's that's okay and then and

26:26then i think that

26:27what i always try to do is model

26:29behavior

26:30in front of other people around what to

26:32do

26:33when something doesn't feel like it's in

26:36aligned culturally so

26:38uh i think i've talked to you before

26:40about at mozilla as we started growing

26:41we had 40 or 50 percent

26:4350 people in organization we started

26:44having layers of management

26:46i started having meetings with not just

26:48my direct reports but

26:50their reports and so what i was looking

26:53for was

26:54i was always very honest with my vice

26:56presidents

26:57when i they said something i said well

26:59that doesn't sound right or that sounds

27:00problematic well let's fix that

27:02and i was trying to i wanted other

27:05people to see me interact with vps in

27:06ways that was specific

27:08and corrective but not judgmental

27:12and so you're trying to find ways to

27:14model that behavior so that everybody

27:16else can say well that doesn't sound

27:17right to me

27:18let's get to the root of it without

27:19being personalized for example

27:23that's very helpful there are a number

27:25of other questions that are being asked

27:26as well

27:28john one sort of question is when does

27:31culture become a hindrance and how do

27:33you know that

27:35yeah well look i think culture's always

27:38uh

27:39always cuts both ways i think that

27:42for startups mostly and really i really

27:45mean is challenger challenger companies

27:47for challenger companies have to be

27:49spiky in ways that

27:51incumbents don't so incumbents they

27:54they draw their strength and their huge

27:56distribution and from

27:57their um the way that they do things is

28:00sort of the status quo

28:01and challengers uh like netflix was

28:04a while ago you know might be online

28:06only versus blockbuster

28:09challengers need to be um defined

28:12and specific and spiky and so most

28:15cultures say

28:17and so you know netflix was famous for a

28:19long time

28:20saying look if we here's our culture and

28:21they try to say they put in a deck they

28:23said here's the way we operate

28:25and if you're here and you don't think

28:26that that describes you

28:28like take a layout package and we'll pay

28:29you to we'll pay you to quit

28:31and definitely don't apply here if this

28:33doesn't sound like you and so they were

28:34trying to figure out how to help people

28:35self-select

28:36inner self-select out because they felt

28:38like the culture made them

28:40uh distinctively shaped

28:44to compete in the market now once you

28:46get big um

28:47so i think your culture can pull you off

28:49any time like if your culture is not

28:51aligned

28:51with your strategic goals you're closer

28:53to not in line with your tactics

28:54you can you can kind of last for a

28:56little bit with that misalignment which

28:58kind of last

28:59can't last forever and so especially as

29:02you start to get big

29:04you start to try to do more things you

29:06start to

29:07hire more types of people it tends to be

29:09harder

29:11to maintain the spikiness of your

29:12culture

29:14but i think that you also just have to

29:16understand fitness for purpose and

29:19like i said it's always best to say

29:21here's our mission

29:22here are the goals we're trying to do

29:23now hear how the values attach to the

29:25goals

29:26and trying to reinforce which which uh

29:29cultural norms make sense any given time

29:32it's very helpful in the meantime

29:35just a quick note to our participants

29:37and listeners in this webinar

29:39please continue to keep the flow of

29:41questions

29:42it's a gift to us we very much value it

29:45so one other question from the list

29:47given by colleagues there and that is

29:50what are the three traits required to

29:52build the culture

29:54the three traits required to scale a

29:56culture is there a difference

29:59oh uh that's interesting three traits

30:02well the first thing is i just think

30:04intentionality so being able to

30:06articulate

30:07what you're trying to do like i said if

30:09you don't if you don't build it

30:10intentionally it'll tend to build you

30:12and so you'll tend to be reactive not

30:14not active so the first thing is

30:16understanding what you're doing

30:17and and being intentional about it the

30:20second thing is i think you have to be

30:22very and i guess the second two i think

30:24you have to be very disciplined

30:25about communication so

30:29you know molly we talked about molly

30:31graham earlier um

30:32who started to define the company

30:34culture at facebook in the early

30:36days after being at google and she just

30:39wanted to talk about what's the story

30:41like what does hack mean you know

30:43facebook talked about

30:44move fast and break things which um i

30:47think has since been

30:48a little bit uh villainized but at the

30:50time

30:51you know when they were startup it meant

30:53do whatever it takes to keep the service

30:55running

30:56and then as a over time that that sort

30:59of

30:59that started changing and morphing into

31:01like well try things but don't

31:03but don't kill the service for our users

31:05that kind of thing

31:06the um so i think that so being

31:09disciplined

31:09being and being communicative and i

31:12think that

31:13for me it's not so much talking about

31:15things in culture

31:17but is saying here's how we make

31:18decisions we make decisions based on

31:20data or we make decisions based on what

31:23customers want or we make decisions

31:24based on what employees

31:27have been noodling on and what the you

31:28know what the market says

31:30and so just being clear and being

31:32disciplined and always being

31:34willing to go back and say well here's

31:36why we're doing the thing we're doing

31:38hmm so which brings me to another

31:41question that was also listed in

31:43uh some way or shape and that is when

31:46you actually

31:47make culture explicit should you

31:49emphasize the good things what is sacred

31:52or should you emphasize the things

31:54people should never do

31:56the stuff that is taboo which one is

31:58kind of more important

32:01yeah um for me

32:04uh you know maybe because i'm an

32:06engineer i've always found it easier and

32:08more

32:08more natural to say well that's the

32:11stuff we don't do let's fix those

32:12let's fix problems because i'm an

32:14engineer by background

32:16i think it's often more uh

32:20i think it gives you more value to

32:22highlight the things that are

32:24that are sacred and things that are

32:25excellent about culture

32:27it will tend to reinforce good behaviors

32:29as opposed to

32:31um i think that sorry i think that you

32:34need to reinforce good behaviors more

32:36than you need to say

32:37that's a bad behavior i think people

32:39will tend to over rotate on things that

32:40are bad

32:41and under notice praise uh and so

32:45what what i had to learn over time is to

32:48say that's a really good example of why

32:50we do how we do things the right way

32:53as opposed you know the ceo calling out

32:56a behavior that wasn't good for a

32:58customer wasn't good for an employee you

32:59do that once

33:00everybody in the world notices it saying

33:04way to go great job of the customer uh

33:07people will tend to dismiss that and so

33:09i think you have to do that probably ten

33:10times

33:11or a hundred times every time you say

33:13well this is this is problematic

33:16but i do think there are cultures that

33:17don't say this is problematic enough and

33:18then

33:19it gets it gets out of control very

33:20quickly to the extent you don't correct

33:23right so one related question

33:26it's a it's a big meaty topic

33:30and that is one of our viewers says hey

33:33in this environment diversity and

33:35inclusion have become salient

33:38what do you recommend that a company do

33:41to improve its track record on the

33:43diversity front

33:44especially when it has enabled

33:46discrimination in the past

33:48that's the question

33:52yeah well we have a lot of work to do um

33:56obviously it's hugely important every

33:58company

33:59uh that's that i'm interacting with uh

34:02cares about it uh like everything else i

34:05think the first thing you want to

34:06be able to articulate as a company is

34:08why you care

34:09so i think that being able to say we

34:11care about diversity because

34:13or we care about inclusion because and

34:16then finishing that sentence is huge

34:18so sometimes people say well because

34:21it's the right thing to do

34:22and i think that's 100 valid and fair

34:26other people say we want we care about

34:29diversity inclusion because

34:31it helps us serve our customers better

34:34because it reflects our customer base

34:35better

34:36because it makes me happier to go to

34:39work

34:39here it's a because it makes stronger

34:42products because it makes stronger play

34:43base

34:44but i think that being able to think

34:45through both

34:47why you think it makes you better and

34:49what aspirationally

34:50you're doing it for that will give you

34:53um

34:54a framework for how to think about it

34:55and talk about it over time i think

34:57without that without the because

34:59i think you're just trying to get a

35:00thing that i think will

35:02it will be hard to figure out the ways

35:04to do it authentically

35:07um as for how to fix diversity like in

35:10inclusion

35:11you know one of the companies i work

35:13with i mentioned called quip where brett

35:14taylor who's now the president of

35:16salesforce

35:17uh started in molly molly worked for um

35:21they were about 50 women in the in the

35:23engineering team and you say well how

35:25did you do that

35:26and what they said is well we hired half

35:28women it wasn't that hard we just did it

35:31and so there's something about

35:33complaining and ringing your hands about

35:35diversity so hard and pipeline so hard

35:37and there's something else that said

35:38well we're not going to

35:41do it unless we can hire diverse

35:43diversity

35:44now hiring diversity is only the first

35:46part you've got to make sure that

35:47you build support and structures for

35:49them to have voice

35:51and if you might have one type of

35:53diversity but not other types of

35:54diversity but this all

35:55all works back to you like why are you

35:57doing it and

35:58what's the main goal so

36:02um yeah and so i think that you have to

36:04just be continually

36:06looking for what bias exists in

36:08organization

36:10where is there unintentional bias where

36:13is their

36:13invisible bias how do we surface it how

36:16do we create structures for people

36:18who to have voices who have not had

36:20voices historically

36:22and that's i think constant you know we

36:24you know we'll make progress

36:26on racial diversity or gender diversity

36:28and we need to make progress

36:29elsewhere and so we just it's a it's a

36:32constant i think it's a

36:33it ends up being a value of the company

36:35and you like the other values you will

36:38you'll say this is a value and then the

36:40way you operate and the way you work

36:41will either reinforce or not again

36:45that's very helpful one question is

36:48do you have a taxonomy of cultures in

36:51mind

36:52you know are there different types of

36:54cultures and if so

36:56what's the taxonomy you lean on is the

36:58question

37:01that is an interesting and complicated

37:03question i mean the companies that we

37:04all know the best uh you know the

37:07companies that are giants around here

37:08now you think about apple or google

37:12and if you are around silicon valley

37:14long enough you'll tend to you'll tend

37:15to have a short hand for oh that

37:16person's kind of amazony or that

37:18person's kind of aptly or that's kind of

37:19googly

37:20er and the

37:24um i don't think i have a taxonomy

37:27except to say that

37:28you know google is uh very collegial

37:31in nature they tend to have very open

37:33open culture they tend to

37:35say here's the information go look at it

37:37make your own decisions be smart

37:39apple tends to be tends to kind of break

37:41everything you read and

37:42management uh and you've heard of the

37:45gsp

37:46and they didn't say we're very siloed

37:47we're not gonna have a lot of mobility

37:49between jobs you're gonna just go do

37:50your job and not

37:51not ask a lot of questions not try to

37:53try anything outside of your job

37:54so they tend to be very siloed very um

37:58information uh um securing

38:01that kind of thing you know you've got

38:03older cultures like microsoft that tend

38:05to be a little bit more traditional in

38:06the way that they think about

38:08roles um and then more modern cultures

38:11like stripe

38:12who tends to be very very engineering

38:13based or

38:16you know ebay who's very product

38:18management based but

38:19these things uh they all kind of start

38:22from the seed of their founders and they

38:24kind of

38:24grow over time and they kind of develop

38:27certain

38:27certain ways of doing you know certain

38:29ways of being and it's

38:31i don't i don't think i have a really

38:32good taxonomy except for organizations

38:34that tend to

38:36well i mean you know maybe the best

38:38taxonomy would be one that you've talked

38:40about you and bob have talked about in

38:41your books which is like how do you

38:43scale in a buddhist way or do you scale

38:45in a catholic way

38:46um so you talk about how do you how do

38:48you grow and in catholicism obviously

38:51the analogy is that catholic

38:53organizations they are like

38:55the catholic church which is the source

38:57of truth is the pope in rome

38:59and everything comes from that and apple

39:02is clearly the

39:03most catholic of organizations in in the

39:05world it certainly was under steve jobs

39:07with tim it's a little less catholic

39:10but buddhist scaling would be let's

39:12teach people how to think let's make

39:14sure they understand our operating

39:15principles

39:16and then let's let them go out and and

39:18and work

39:19and google tends to be a little bit more

39:21buddhist uh in that way and so

39:23you know that that's a reasonable

39:24taxonomy for me that's how i would think

39:26about it as i was looking for a place to

39:28join i

39:29i like buddha's organizations more than

39:31like catholic organizations even though

39:33at two trillion dollars apple's a pretty

39:35good example of a catholic organization

39:37a pretty good catholic organization

39:40yeah so there are a number of other

39:42questions

39:43that are being uh asked as well

39:46uh john i'm going to sort of select and

39:49uh

39:49tell them one interesting question is

39:52when there is a crisis

39:54when there is pressure how do you calm

39:58employees down

40:02um sure so sometimes you don't want them

40:06to calm down sometimes you want them to

40:07realize it's a crisis

40:08um you know i think uh

40:12but often you want them to be in their

40:14rational head space and think about what

40:16to do

40:17and almost always that has to do with if

40:20you're intentional about

40:21i mean i hate to to reiterate but if you

40:23if you're intentional about

40:25mission values operating principles you

40:28can just go back and say

40:29yes this is a problem because it's

40:31misaligned with our values or because

40:33it's

40:33misaligned our operating principles or

40:35because it misaligns the mission you can

40:36start to articulate

40:37where the gap is and say and

40:41so once we know where the gap is we can

40:42say well we should fix it because

40:44there's a there's a gap or we should

40:46change our values because

40:47the reality is the reality is more

40:50correct than what we thought our values

40:51were

40:52our articulated values were or this is

40:55wrong and it doesn't match

40:56and so we're gonna we're gonna change

40:58the way we behave so that it comes back

41:00into alignment with our values so i

41:01think that

41:02the more that you have been explicit and

41:04intentional about these things over time

41:05the easier it is to calm things down

41:08the part where you get uh in trouble

41:12is when you have not been explicit about

41:13these things and you haven't shared

41:15these things and something happens

41:17and then suddenly you need to explain

41:19explain

41:20what to do and you don't have a history

41:23of blogging second i think about

41:25there were there were some venture firms

41:28that got

41:29uh pulled into things that

41:32uh sort of she said um

41:35uh me too type stuff um you know maybe

41:3810 years ago

41:40and i remember one of the one of the

41:43partners

41:44had a blog post like here's why it's

41:46totally not true and we were doing the

41:47right thing

41:48and if you look back it's the first time

41:50he had blogged in

41:5210 years and so there was just no

41:55credibility and no framework to

41:57understand

41:59how he was thinking and why this wasn't

42:01just

42:02being defensive whereas if he had been

42:05sharing all along you'd have said oh

42:06this lines up with all the other things

42:08that

42:08that he said all along and here's why

42:10this kind of follows as a consequence

42:12um but you know as a one-off it was not

42:15very not particularly credible

42:17lovely so there are a number of

42:19questions again that are coming up we're

42:21very grateful

42:22it's 10 42 i'm also keeping track of

42:25time

42:26uh because my boss robin today will tell

42:28me hey

42:29we're getting close to 11 i want to make

42:31sure i'm mindful

42:32at this stage i thought it would be

42:34interesting for all

42:36in the webinar or conversation

42:39to listen to a young stanford student

42:42this young stanford student wanted to be

42:44a scientist first and now after coming

42:47to stanford wants to be an entrepreneur

42:49uh she's an amazing young woman i want

42:51to welcome olivia

42:53halsey olivia welcome please join us

42:58and i know that you have a couple of

43:00questions welcome to the conversation

43:02olivia

43:03so why don't you fire away a couple of

43:05questions you're thinking of becoming an

43:07entrepreneur

43:07yeah right yes yes

43:11i um would love to become an

43:13entrepreneur one day and i really it's

43:15been such a privilege to listen to you

43:16both today

43:17and i mean i'm thinking about becoming

43:20an entrepreneur

43:21i think a lot about how to establish

43:24culture

43:24and then preserve that culture as you

43:26scale so i wanted to know

43:29what are some key constructs and

43:31processes

43:32that engender and safeguard equity

43:34within an organization and then how do

43:37you

43:37intentionally strengthen these as a

43:39founder or a manager within an

43:41organization

43:43yeah your questions um so thanks thanks

43:46levi the

43:46question is about how do you uh

43:49safeguard equity is that

43:51that's that the core of your question

43:53yes

43:54yeah yeah it's um it's an interesting

43:57question so i think that

43:58the first thing you have to do is you

43:59have to model so you have to model

44:01patients you have to model

44:02um that when

44:06questions arise when comments arise that

44:08you value the

44:09the the line of questioning and thoughts

44:12from the from the the questioner

44:13themselves so

44:14i think that one of the things that

44:16founders uh and leaders often forget is

44:18that

44:19the world doesn't a lot of founders in

44:23in leaders like forget that most people

44:25don't

44:26see all the things that are happening

44:28and can't see the whole the whole board

44:31and so they can get they often get a

44:33noise like well why don't you understand

44:34this is what we're doing or why why do

44:36you have that point of view it's like

44:37why can't you just

44:38like like it's really obvious and so it

44:41has to come from a place of

44:43um understanding that your point of view

44:45is not

44:46you can't see the same things that

44:47everybody else can see and so

44:50um and then the second thing i guess

44:53would say

44:55is you have to to the degree that you

44:59can

44:59you have to not react in ways that are

45:03ever seen very

45:04frustrated with people and so i i really

45:06struggled with this especially the first

45:07time i was a ceo

45:09that when i f i was always working on

45:11the next set of problems

45:13and when people ask me like why did you

45:15do this

45:16thing in a dumb way ceo i got

45:19i could get short and a lot of founders

45:22are like this because they're always

45:23trying to think about the next thing

45:25and so if i was short that shut people

45:27down for

45:28you know sometimes forever sometimes

45:30they would never ever turn back on

45:31because the ceo was short with them

45:34and so i started learning how to

45:37just be patient how to let people finish

45:39the question how to ask more questions

45:41about why they were asking

45:42and then to share share those as much

45:45information as i could

45:46um and when i made mistakes that was i

45:49still makes mistakes about being short

45:51and um from time to time always to go

45:54back to them and say

45:56uh and try to try to address it as

45:58quickly as you can

46:00and say hey tell me more about what you

46:01want to understand tell me more about

46:03how you how you want to

46:04how you want to engage and i'll share

46:06whatever i can with you

46:07and so i got some of that writing some

46:08of that wrong but i think you always

46:10have to

46:10model um patience model listening

46:14model engagement um you know at figma

46:16where dylan

46:17uh field as a ceo you know he um

46:20their values were you know uh create

46:24you know celebrate diversity create

46:25inclusion um

46:27have fun and they they start they start

46:29every talk with those same

46:31every every presentation to the company

46:33they start by putting up the same values

46:35every time

46:36it seems like a gimmick for a little

46:38while but then you play forward to

46:40where you know that two-thirds of the

46:41people had female were here

46:43a year ago and you start to see it's

46:46like oh

46:46that's what we did we say that but it's

46:49not just a slogan

46:50here's how it here's how it gets

46:51reflected by the q and a period is

46:54is at least as long as the meeting

46:56itself was so

46:57you start to realize all the ways that

46:58it reinforces um

47:00but it's it's like all this stuff is

47:02just continuous you just have to keep

47:03working at it

47:06and in addition yeah

47:09just just building off of what you just

47:11said i think

47:12what i found from my very limited work

47:15experience

47:15um that culture can sometimes be

47:18different

47:19at different levels within an

47:21organization and i think

47:22what separates work experiences is when

47:25a culture is uniform and strong at

47:27every level in an organization and so i

47:30was wondering

47:31from your perspective what levers you

47:33have found

47:34um you know or efforts

47:38you can perform and enforce within an

47:41organization to ensure that a culture is

47:43uniform

47:44and strong and upheld by every employee

47:46in an organization

47:48yeah that's an awesome question i think

47:51that um

47:52the first the first thing the first part

47:55is like just remembering just

47:56remembering that that's true

47:57and that somebody coming out of college

47:59will perceive the culture in a way

48:01that's completely different than

48:02a vice president um who's you know in

48:05their 40s

48:07um and but the second thing i think for

48:10leadership in particular would be

48:12to be curious about people and and so

48:15i mean this is we don't talk about

48:16hewlett-packard very much anymore but

48:19but they used to talk about um mbwa

48:22which was management by walking around

48:24and so those guys even as hewlett even

48:26as hp was growing and hp used to be an

48:28incredible company like

48:29much different than it is today i mean

48:31you see like the smartest most tenant

48:33like the google of you know 50 years ago

48:35maybe

48:36and you know you'd be working on

48:38something at your workbench and then

48:40suddenly that one of the founders would

48:41come just sit down and say hey tell me

48:42what you're working on

48:44and um because they were probably

48:46because they were just nerds they were

48:48curious

48:48uh they wanted to know um but partly

48:51it's like

48:52it what the the the what they're

48:53communicating is that

48:55the work that individuals are doing

48:57that's the work of the company not the

48:59management of the company per se

49:01and so like partly it's just like you

49:03look for ways to blow up

49:05the divisions at every level and to mix

49:07people up and i think that's actually

49:08one of the

49:09like slight one of the real challenges

49:11of this remote culture we're building

49:13is that you gotta find ways to intermix

49:15i think it's really easy just to

49:16interact with people on your team or at

49:18the same level

49:19and so we've got to find ways to have

49:21cross-cutting um

49:24conversations uh as much as we can

49:27but i think i think that's a really good

49:28one i think the other thing is like i

49:30i would pretty routinely talk to people

49:32about you know who are

49:34uh you know three years out of school

49:36and a staff engineer and they said well

49:38i want to be a

49:38vice president of engineering and we

49:41were pretty routinely talked about

49:42let's talk about what i expect out of

49:45vice presidents of engineering

49:48that this is the set of things that i

49:49expected to be able to demonstrate and

49:51let's talk about what you can

49:52demonstrate now

49:52and see if we can be explicit about the

49:54gap and so if you can be explicit about

49:56the gap then you can start to start to

49:58climb up in that way

49:59and so it's having conversations that

50:01are real and specific

50:02um but don't feel overly judgmental with

50:05anybody at any level i think is is part

50:07of the key too

50:10i'm keeping track of time we have

50:12another eight minutes

50:14uh and there are a couple more questions

50:17so if you don't mind olivia i'm going to

50:18interleave one of them

50:20and this is a very personal question

50:23john this is again from

50:25um bob and bob asks what did you learn

50:29about culture as a ceo

50:30what did you learn about culture as a

50:33venture capital

50:34a partner and investor and is there a

50:36difference and if so what

50:39yeah uh well um

50:43by and large i mean cultures are defined

50:45by the people who are there not by the

50:46people who are investors and so

50:49vcs i think you know you're along for

50:51the ride a little bit and you can

50:52affect the way that people ask questions

50:54you can affect the way that leaders lead

50:56a little bit but

50:56like their effect on the culture i think

50:58is somewhat minimal um

51:00you know this this other question from

51:02bob like

51:04the other half of his question the

51:06statement after his question was that he

51:07was there and i was pretty impatient

51:08which is true

51:10um

51:14yeah yeah i mean what i learned about my

51:16first my first gig was just my first ceo

51:18job is that

51:20uh i was in a big rush to do things all

51:22the time

51:23and the more that i acted like that the

51:26less able i was to lead

51:28and so the more that i want the more

51:30that i was able to create

51:32other what i really wanted is other

51:34people to be in a rush and pull me

51:37rather than me to be in a rush and pull

51:38them and so what i wanted to build is

51:41urgency and alignment

51:42more than i wanted to say come on come

51:44on come on let's go

51:45um and so i mean that's that's it mostly

51:49is this i learned

51:50in my my second my second ceo job i was

51:53more

51:53patient i think i listened more and i

51:56was looking to

51:57create more leaders and i was looking to

51:59create more leaders

52:00uh and lead less myself i think it's

52:03what i that's the way i would say it

52:05wonderful olivia you have the floor do

52:08you have another

52:09question for joan

52:12yes yes um thank you so much i

52:15also i mean selfishly i think

52:19we all would love to learn about how in

52:22your career if you think any efforts

52:24that

52:25you did particularly stand out as being

52:28especially effective

52:29in shifting a culture in a new direction

52:32because i think we've spoken a lot about

52:33how to establish a culture

52:34but is there a way to really you know

52:37move a culture

52:38into a new more positive place and

52:41allowing it to develop

52:44yeah i mean i don't what i would say is

52:46i don't have that much experience but

52:48we of moving cultures i think that uh i

52:50think that once you have values and

52:52cultures

52:53in a certain direction it's hard to it's

52:55hard to move them

52:56um culture tends to be sticky in a way

52:58that marketing messages are sticky

53:00they tend to be ingrained values and in

53:02ways of doing things

53:04i do think that very often people pay

53:06attention to who you promote

53:08and who you hire and so i think that

53:11very visible

53:13uh uh celebrations of people in that way

53:16are huge

53:17i think that to the degree that you um

53:21yeah so i think that that's part of it

53:23so i think that who you hire who you

53:24promote who you

53:25who you talk about who you value who you

53:28amplify

53:29that's the that's about the best you can

53:30do i think that people

53:32just listening to you talk about this is

53:34the important thing to do culturally

53:35this is why we are

53:36why we are who we are it doesn't have

53:38much as much

53:39impact by a long stretch as saying

53:41people saying oh

53:43i value i i believe that this is the way

53:46we are because this person

53:48i believe in this person because these

53:49people are all lined up

53:53it's a pretty squishy answer i'm sorry

54:00so using reward systems is a very

54:02powerful lever

54:03in a sense to change culture changing

54:06jobs is another way to change culture

54:08now i'm very mindful of time so i want

54:12to sort of close on one

54:13big issue uh john and

54:16you know and this is that when people

54:18comp you know the arc of course is

54:20to go from startup to scale when you're

54:24a startup you're a small team with big

54:26people

54:28but when you're a scale-up the danger is

54:30you become a large company with a lot of

54:32small

54:33people how do you as the ceo

54:37honey is the founder what do you do to

54:39culture to to to offset that

54:41it's a cousin of uh olivia's question as

54:45well as a number of questions on our

54:46list

54:48yeah again i would so to go to bring us

54:51all the way back to the beginning i'd

54:52say

54:52understand what kind of culture you are

54:54and understand why you're doing the

54:55things you're doing so

54:57i think that um inside

55:00google for example they've created as

55:02many leadership jobs as possible

55:04so you know obviously sundar is the ceo

55:06of alphabet but he was ceo of google

55:07before that and then

55:09working for him is susan wojcicki who's

55:10the ceo of youtube and

55:12there's a ceo of waymo and a ceo of

55:15google x and so there

55:16are these leadership positions where

55:18people have the ability

55:20to run the organizations that that they

55:23have responsibility for

55:25um in by contrast like apple would be

55:28say look here you're in the marketing

55:30silo or you're in the engineering silo

55:32or you're in the

55:33services silo and your job is to be

55:37as you own everything across the whole

55:40company in this particular way

55:41but it's all about how do you create

55:43ownership how do you create agency how

55:45do you create um as much space for

55:48people to

55:49make decisions and make mistakes uh of

55:52the on their own

55:53and accountability um and so i i mean

55:56i'd say that's i mean

55:57that's the that's the start and the

55:59finish that you you have mission

56:01goals values and enough space for

56:04leaders to

56:04be genuine leaders and not just work for

56:07somebody else but work with you

56:09right that's wonderful and it's

56:11wonderful

56:12i'm very mindful we're getting to the

56:14close of our webinar

56:16yeah i'm just going to make one or two

56:18closing observations

56:20i just want to express my gratitude to

56:23john

56:23for taking the time to share his

56:27reflections and his wisdom

56:28and i want to express my deep

56:30appreciation to all of our listeners

56:32for so generously giving us the

56:34questions

56:36as you can see we combined the questions

56:39some of them were also asked by olivia

56:41as well thank you olivia

56:42for doing that uh as you walk away from

56:46this webinar

56:47you might want to keep in mind a couple

56:49of things i think

56:50and that is and i think john put this

56:54beautifully which is

56:55you build culture culture builds you so

56:58in other words

56:59if you're going to go from start up to

57:01scale up make sure your culture scales

57:04your people too

57:06makes them bigger than they are and this

57:08is the message

57:09that john was actually offering

57:13the other sort of important uh takeaway

57:16for

57:16all of you is in

57:20and i i really like the emphasis that

57:23john placed on the way we do things and

57:26actions

57:27and indeed in the course that john sujay

57:30and i

57:31teach on startup to scale up we sort of

57:34emphasize this in

57:35detail where we talk about caring

57:38sharing and daring being the muscles

57:40that are necessary

57:41to propel you from startup to scale

57:44on a personal note i want to steal a

57:47line from my wonderful colleague

57:49friend and collaborator bob sutton

57:52and that is uh you know bob always says

57:55as a leader the most important thing is

57:58when you meet

57:59somebody they should walk away with

58:02positive energy

58:03that's absolutely true that is the

58:06single biggest predictor of whether

58:08you're able to engage people and

58:10mobilize people

58:11if you drain energy from other people

58:14it's not going to do very much

58:15to that i'd you know tack on one more

58:18thing and this is something

58:20john's kind of been emphasizing and that

58:22is great leaders also ask

58:24helpful questions so if you really want

58:28to measure yourself

58:30as a builder of culture when you lead a

58:32meeting

58:33when you bring a team together ask

58:35yourself

58:36how many helpful questions did i ask

58:39other people

58:40because i want to turn as many lights on

58:42in the house

58:44versus how many statements i made

58:47either of my opinion or my experience

58:50meaning

58:50statements like in my experience in my

58:53opinion

58:54and once you track that measure that's

58:56actually going to give you

58:58a very good insight into you and indeed

59:01the company

59:02so look at that metric number of helpful

59:05questions

59:06divided by the number of statements of

59:10opinion or expertise and if you keep in

59:13mind both of those things

59:16i think you'll actually be if you will

59:18not just a builder of culture

59:21not just a bearer of culture you'll

59:23actually be a propagator of cultures

59:26so thank you all for your time thank you

59:29and let's give a warm round of applause

59:30to john as well

59:32so please join me in giving an

59:34electronic round of applause this time

59:37nice to see you guys yeah over to you

59:40robin

59:42thank you so much thank you thank you

59:44john thank you olivia

59:47for this valuable conversation everyone

59:50in the audience i know

59:51please let me echo that all your

59:53valuable questions and participation

59:54really make

59:55this time together so special so thank

59:58you so much

59:58if you enjoyed the conversation you're

01:00:00interested in learning more

01:00:02um you should check out our new course

01:00:05x90242

01:00:06building company culture which is linked

01:00:08in your dashboard

01:00:09and i want to remind you that today's

01:00:11session was recorded and a link will be

01:00:14made available to you within a week so

01:00:16you can review it if you'd like and have

01:00:17it

01:00:18thank you everyone signing off from

01:00:20california

01:00:21and stay safe please thank you

01:00:34you

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