00:00 I think AI is the biggest change in our
00:02 world since the invention of
00:04 electricity a bigger change than the
00:07 internet um and if you're not using it
00:10 for half an hour a day you don't
00:12 understand you should you need to put it
00:14 on your calendar and go use it what's up
00:16 brand Builder Steven Harahan here on the
00:18 brand Master podcast and in this episode
00:20 I'm speaking with the one and only Mr
00:23 Seth Goden about branding and marketing
00:26 in the age of AI now Seth is arguably
00:29 the doubt when it comes to branding and
00:31 marketing he certainly had a massive
00:33 impact on my career and my philosophies
00:35 as he has had millions of other branders
00:39 and marketers around the world early on
00:40 in his career he built and sold some
00:43 early inter internet marketing companies
00:45 for literally tens of millions of
00:48 dollars this is way back in 1998 and
00:50 since then he's written 21 best sellers
00:54 in the marketing industry including
00:55 Classics such as the Purple Cow this is
00:58 marketing and all marketers are liers to
01:01 name just a few and I have to say I
01:04 really really enjoyed our chat today and
01:07 we dug into branding and positioning
01:10 with tension in the Modern Age we spoke
01:13 about the impact of AI in the marketing
01:16 industry and how AI is the biggest thing
01:18 since electricity according to Seth and
01:21 how professionals and brand builders can
01:23 stay ahead in the AI age so if you want
01:26 to learn from uh futurists who literally
01:30 wrote 21 best sellers of the industry
01:33 selling tens of millions of copies then
01:36 don't miss this episode of the
01:38 brandmaster podcast welcome to the
01:40 brandmaster podcast show specialize in
01:43 helping branding professionals and
01:44 entrepreneurs build Brands using
01:46 strategy psychology and creative
01:52 thinking hello everyone and welcome to
01:54 the brand Master podcast and I am
01:57 absolutely delighted ecstatic over over
01:59 the moon to have the one and only Mr
02:02 Seth Goen on the show with us today Seth
02:05 who needs no introduction thank you so
02:08 much for taking the time to join us
02:09 today well a pleasure happy to chime in
02:11 if I can beautiful H now you are uh this
02:15 is a perfect example of the philosophy
02:17 that I like which is if you don't ask
02:19 you don't get I was actually chatting
02:21 with my team and we were going through
02:23 who should we have on the podcast and
02:24 Seth golden came up and I said no no no
02:26 don't don't send an email to se Seth
02:28 Seth will be too busy and then I said
02:30 you know what just send it just send it
02:32 he might say yes and uh when the email
02:34 popped up I was uh I was absolutely
02:37 delighted so uh well thank you I don't I
02:39 don't want to start by having an
02:40 argument with you but I don't uh have
02:42 much truck with if you don't ask you
02:45 don't get philos I think it's if you
02:48 don't offer you can't make things better
02:51 and I didn't view showing up on this
02:53 podcast to chat with you as something
02:55 you would get or something that you were
02:57 asking that plenty of people spam me and
03:00 ask me for ways that I can help them
03:03 achieve their goals but we're aligned so
03:06 you made an offer and I thought this is
03:08 fun to do together so here I am and and
03:10 I I've watched a ton of your stuff on on
03:13 the leadup to this and i' I I noticed
03:16 philosophical uh you know background to
03:19 your to your chats and and uh just going
03:21 through your bio I noticed that you're
03:23 your studies were actually in philosophy
03:26 so I was like ah you know that's why and
03:28 I was I was I was even tempted to to
03:31 just throw at the whole marketing and
03:32 branding stuff and just have a a chat
03:34 like that because some of some of your
03:36 uh previous interviews have been uh
03:37 really really fascinating but as a as a
03:41 man who lives and breeds marketing you
03:43 know that we are we are here to serve a
03:46 specific audience and our specific
03:49 audience are brand builders uh marketers
03:52 brand leaders and they want to know what
03:55 you think about that side of the the the
03:58 business so um so I'm going to start
04:00 with um just a a kind of broad one now I
04:04 know that you talk a lot about the way
04:07 people used to speak about advertising
04:10 synonymously but marketing is is you
04:13 know this whole other uh kettle of fish
04:17 it's it's it's uh you know it's it's way
04:19 beyond that I speak about branding and
04:22 marketing in the same kind of way um
04:26 because I do believe that branding as it
04:28 was once taught you know as as a subset
04:31 of marketing has evolved into this
04:34 bigger entity what's your take on that
04:37 and and how do you see the the the
04:40 balance between the
04:42 two well you know the people who are
04:44 listening understand better than almost
04:46 anybody that a brand is not a logo but
04:49 we still get stuck on the language like
04:51 we have a new brand well no you don't
04:53 have a new brand you have a new logo
04:55 we're going through a branding exercise
04:56 well no you're actually going through a
04:57 logoing exercise I don't think logos
05:00 matter and one of my favorite ways to
05:02 think about this is you know close your
05:04 eyes for a second and visualize what you
05:06 think of as a great logo right you got
05:12 always people will identify one that is
05:16 actually associated with the brand they
05:18 admire that very few people pick evil s
05:22 symbols from World War II even though
05:25 from a logo point of view they were
05:26 pretty powerful right but we don't do
05:29 that and in fact the Starbucks logo is
05:31 terrible it's just a terrible logo why
05:33 would you want a half naked person with
05:35 bad hair right but we associate it with
05:41 is I think the act of building a story
05:45 that's resilient that finds a spot in
05:48 someone's brain because they want it
05:50 there that it's a shorthand for the
05:54 promises that we're making and whether
05:57 or not we're going to keep them it's a
05:58 symbol that we've earned trust and so
06:02 getting your brand right has nothing to
06:05 do with how you look and feel it has a
06:07 lot to do with how other people think
06:11 feel yeah and that's it like you you hit
06:15 the nail on the head there is a massive
06:16 education Gap in the market when it
06:19 comes to brand and uh we see that more
06:22 and more because it's so easy now to
06:23 start a business and you don't need an
06:26 education in branding or marketing to
06:28 start a business and you make a lot of
06:29 assumptions as a newbie entrepreneur and
06:32 that that's where a lot of the confusion
06:34 is coming from because you know you got
06:36 a lot of people speaking about stuff in
06:39 a certain kind of way when uh you know
06:41 as you said you know there there are
06:43 there are some some differences there
06:45 that that need to be understood to be
06:47 able to apply them correctly now I speak
06:50 a lot about strategy specifically and uh
06:54 you know when I talk about brand
06:57 strategy I talk about the likes of
07:01 storytelling uh brand personality when I
07:05 so so to me the the strategy of the
07:07 brand is the method of the brand and
07:10 then to me marketing which you might
07:12 argue with me here is the mobilization
07:15 of that brand so how this method is
07:21 mobilized in the market is that how you
07:24 would separate the really I think it's a
07:28 really useful way to do it you know
07:29 think that many of the people who call
07:31 themselves brand strategists are not
07:34 that does Oreo the cookie have a brand
07:38 strategy well they had one a long time
07:40 ago but now they have brand tacticians
07:43 they have people who are doing marketing
07:45 tactics to maintain a brand that had a
07:48 strategy from a long time ago strategy
07:51 requires the desire for a change that
07:55 how are you going to move pieces on the
07:57 board so that your share of whatever it
08:00 is the difference you seek to make the
08:02 change you're making will go in the
08:04 direction that you want and if you're
08:06 not here to make a change happen then
08:09 the tactics they don't they're not
08:12 unimportant but when we're going to talk
08:14 strategy it's about positioning it's
08:16 about Game Theory and it's about time
08:19 how will tomorrow be different than
08:20 today what are you doing today is going
08:23 to change the dynamic in the marketplace
08:26 because people have choices and they're
08:28 not going to pick something because you
08:30 to yeah I I love that and you know so
08:33 much of what I learned about uh
08:36 positioning came from from your work I
08:39 remember devouring uh uh the Purple Cow
08:43 and positioning by Al re and Jack trout
08:46 at the same time and uh for me that's
08:49 the center point of strategy because
08:51 positioning is is really the reason that
08:54 you give the audience to choose your
08:56 brand over your competitors and really
08:59 that's why we build a brand is to give
09:02 those people a reason what what have you
09:05 seen change in in the let's let's say
09:08 the art of positioning since you wrote
09:11 The Purple Cow because you wrote The
09:12 Purple Cow quite a while back and the
09:17 change but what have you seen have you
09:20 seen anything change in positioning uh
09:23 since you've written the
09:25 book okay so you know trouton Reese's
09:29 book a very long time ago had a big
09:31 impact on me the subtitle is the battle
09:32 for your mind and I think the biggest
09:35 change is this and having taught
09:37 positioning to more people than most um
09:40 positioning is a generous act it is not
09:42 a battle it is not selfish it is not
09:45 about differentiation it is not about
09:47 gaining something it is about offering
09:51 people who are busy a clear map of who
09:54 you are and who you're not if you are
09:57 not eagerly sending po potential
09:59 business to your quote competitors then
10:01 you don't actually have a position
10:03 basically you're saying we're for
10:05 everyone and you're everyone and
10:08 positioning says if you want an $18
10:11 chocolate bar that's uh bespoken
10:14 handmade and ethical that's what we make
10:17 if you want a Nestle's bar to give out
10:20 on Halloween that's made with slave
10:22 labor that's what they make here's their
10:23 phone number we don't compete with
10:25 Nestle they're doing that we do this
10:28 positioning is this generous act to say
10:30 if you're looking for this that's what
10:32 we have but if you're looking for that
10:34 that's what they have yeah I love that I
10:37 love that and it look it does turn the
10:39 table on a little bit and it kind of uh
10:42 you know it leans into that idea that
10:44 we're here to serve as well and uh you
10:47 know if you if you figure it the best
10:49 way to serve your audience then you know
10:52 you can you can position that in a way
10:54 that will will appeal to them I like to
10:56 talk uh about positioning in in terms of
11:00 angles uh angles are or verticals of
11:03 course you can position uh with your
11:05 product with features and benefits but
11:07 there are more creative ways to position
11:09 and with how busy markets are getting at
11:12 the moment it's almost a requirement to
11:15 look to other angles for positioning
11:17 what are your some of your more creative
11:21 angles to position from whether it be
11:24 personality or uh you know associations
11:28 what what what are some of the more
11:29 creative angles that you like to to look
11:31 at okay so I would say two really useful
11:34 lessons the first one is this we're all
11:36 familiar with the XY grid that's used
11:38 for positioning if you're going to do it
11:41 right all four quadrants have to be
11:45 viable meaning you're not allowed to
11:46 have one of the axes be good stuff bad
11:49 stuff our competitors make bad stuff we
11:51 make good stuff they have to be things
11:53 they were my first ones yeah exactly
11:56 that's the very tempting thing to do the
11:59 problem with that is unless you have
12:00 magical patents or machines you will not
12:03 be able to make a thing that is better
12:05 for everyone all the time that the
12:08 position that's available to us is oh
12:11 you might want a luxury handbag we don't
12:14 make those we make inexpensive handbags
12:16 those are different things some people
12:18 might want one some people might want
12:19 the other you might want a a durable
12:23 backpack that comes with a lifetime
12:24 guarantee but you might not care about
12:26 that you might just want one that's
12:27 convenient and and cheap right both of
12:30 those things are valid so that's the
12:33 first thing pick valid axes for
12:35 everybody and the second thing is we
12:38 talk about features and benefits but
12:40 most marketers I know still get hung up
12:43 on the features and the truth of the
12:46 matter is that we care about the
12:50 because we worked really hard to build
12:53 the features but our customers don't
12:56 care about the features at all they only
12:58 care about what the features will get
13:00 them and what they will get them are
13:02 benefits and so you know buttonfly jeans
13:06 that's a feature the benefit is your
13:09 girlfriend will think you look good in
13:11 these those are different
13:13 things yeah I love that um and and that
13:17 kind of Segways perfectly into the idea
13:19 of Storytelling because when we you know
13:22 you can you can sell a a feature all day
13:24 but you can you can sell a benefit
13:27 through a story and and you're one of
13:29 the biggest advocates for storytelling
13:31 that I've I've seen but I do see a lot
13:34 of confusion out there as to what
13:37 storytelling actually is a lot of people
13:40 believe that that they should tell the
13:42 story of the founder you know um who had
13:45 a dream as a boy and grew up to do this
13:47 that and the other and as you said no
13:49 one no one cares about the founder they
13:52 care about themselves they care about
13:54 you know uh what's in for them or or how
13:57 this story touches them am or aligns
13:59 with who they are what mistakes are you
14:02 seeing Brands making in the market with
14:05 storytelling and you know how can they
14:08 correct them so the world's expert on
14:11 storytelling is bernardet jwa uh she's
14:13 written five bestsellers about it J I wa
14:17 um she's from Ireland and Australia and
14:19 she's super like myself exactly like
14:23 myself um storytelling is the basic
14:26 human technology MH and the stories that
14:30 resonate with us are either about status
14:32 fear or affiliation one of the three
14:36 that's all we got and a story is a
14:39 shorthand that goes to the emotional
14:40 part of our brain that turns into our
14:43 story that turns into a story that
14:45 becomes part of us so an example of a
14:48 story is um last time I checked 20% of
14:52 the people in the state of Georgia and
14:53 the US have Coca-Cola for
14:56 breakfast and there is isn't an ad
14:59 campaign it says drink Coke for
15:00 breakfast but the story is simple which
15:03 is my mom fed me Coke for breakfast
15:05 drinking Coke for breakfast reminds me
15:07 of my mom being reminded of my mom makes
15:10 me feel safe that is why people drink
15:12 Coke for breakfast in Georgia and when
15:16 they said oh New Coke tastes better they
15:19 were basically insulting your mom and
15:22 that's why the whole thing fell apart
15:24 because they didn't understand there's
15:25 always a story behind the story yeah
15:28 yeah I I love how you broke down that so
15:31 simplistically and really that's that is
15:34 our role you know as as brand builders
15:36 it's it's about you know Simplicity it's
15:38 about simplification it's it's about
15:40 making the complex easy to understand
15:42 and compelling at the same time when you
15:45 talk about story like that and and
15:48 really I'm I'm I'm thinking more so from
15:50 a small business perspective I mean it's
15:52 applicable to big business as well but
15:55 what would be some of the more tactical
15:57 delivery methods of stories like that
16:01 with all of the channels that we have
16:02 available to us now um you know how can
16:05 we break something down like that and
16:08 and deliver it tactically uh uh you know
16:11 to our different channels okay so we're
16:13 going to shift the tactics let's talk
16:15 about the wheeler witch for a second
16:17 okay um in the uh 19 late 1920s early
16:21 1930s there were a lot of soda fountains
16:24 in the United States and it was The
16:25 Depression um and the people who worked
16:28 at a sod a fountain we called jerks and
16:30 so a soda jerk would stand there and
16:31 make you a milkshaker and ice cream soda
16:33 and stuff and there were uh big
16:35 businesses that were selling these
16:36 things they hired a trainer named
16:37 wheeler to help increase sales and it
16:41 turns out as disgusting as it sounds
16:43 that one of the things that people would
16:44 eat in those days was uh an ice cream
16:47 soda or a milkshake with an a raw egg in
16:50 it and the raw egg cost a penny or
16:54 nickel and it gave you your protein for
16:56 the day and they wanted to make sales of
16:59 eggs go up because it was a place to
17:01 make a profit and you could talk about
17:04 the benefits of an egg and you could
17:05 talk about the coste effectiveness of an
17:07 egg and you could talk about all of the
17:10 ways that there are features that you
17:11 should add to shake and instead what
17:14 wheeler taught the jerks was this when
17:17 someone orders a soda you say to them
17:23 two and it dramatically increased the
17:27 number of people who put one egg in
17:29 because the wheeler witch said look most
17:32 people are taking one or two do you want
17:34 to be like most people or do you want to
17:35 be a cheap ass and take none but they
17:37 didn't use those words they just created
17:40 a story a situation where you got to
17:42 feel like a big spender for a penny and
17:45 add that raw egg you didn't want to
17:47 disappoint the jerk and say none one or
17:49 two were the options so that's a tactic
17:52 it doesn't work if you're manipulating
17:54 people they come back tomorrow because
17:56 the egg made them feel better um but you
17:59 needed something to get under their skin
18:02 because they were coming from a place of
18:04 scarcity and they were believing they
18:07 egg yeah and and and that's it really
18:10 when we're when we're delivering our our
18:13 uh Our Brands to the market it's about
18:15 finding that way to get under their skin
18:18 and that really comes from you know deep
18:20 audience research and really
18:22 understanding you know what they're all
18:24 about in in this is I want to shift
18:27 gears into to uh something that you
18:29 wrote in in this is marketing which is
18:32 uh something that I love the smallest
18:34 viable Market um what are some of the
18:38 most uh effective methods for finding a
18:42 small the smallest viable Market because
18:44 as you said you know so many Brands make
18:47 the mistake of of going out there
18:49 certainly small businesses and all they
18:51 want is business and they're prepared to
18:52 just say we're for everybody but you
18:54 know and you know because of that be
18:58 because they want that business they're
18:59 they're kind of afraid to close the door
19:02 to other businesses you know or to to to
19:06 be brave to fall to to go and find that
19:09 smallest viable Market what are some of
19:11 the most effective methods that you use
19:14 for for for doing that this is a great
19:17 uh place to focus and uh you left out
19:20 what I think is the main reason people
19:22 don't pick a smaller audience part of it
19:24 is the greed of saying I want everyone
19:27 but a big part of it is the fear of if I
19:29 pick a precise audience and it doesn't
19:31 work now I'm really on the hook so let's
19:35 say you make headphones well you most
19:38 people say I make headphones for anyone
19:40 with ears and you could say well I make
19:43 headphones for podcasters you could say
19:45 I make headphones for podcasters who do
19:47 video things and want people to notice
19:49 their headphones so let's say you pick
19:51 audience and they don't buy it now
19:55 you're on the hook because you're the
19:57 one who picked the audience
19:58 you can't say well I'm going to go
19:59 switch to another audience because you
20:01 picked the audience but in fact in my
20:04 experience this is the single most
20:07 important strategic decision that any
20:11 brand makes to pick the precise audience
20:14 Patagonia picked the precise audience
20:17 Nike picked the precise audience you can
20:19 get very very big with a very precise
20:22 audience because over time it shmears
20:24 and and goes to more people Whole Foods
20:27 is a great example of that as well right
20:29 in my case you know I've written 21
20:32 bestsellers and not one of them has
20:34 reached more than 1% of the US
20:36 population which means I have z% market
20:39 share if you round it off and that is
20:42 fine with me if someone says I didn't
20:44 like your book I get to say it wasn't
20:49 you yeah I love that and you're right
20:52 like there there is this fear of of
20:55 going all in and uh
20:58 of of putting a flag in the ground and
21:00 saying this is my flag this is where I'm
21:03 standing because a lot of uh you know a
21:05 lot of people building Brands uh are
21:07 doing it for the first time you know
21:10 there you know there are many
21:12 entrepreneurs out there who are you know
21:15 trying to to turn what they do for a
21:17 living into a business and it it the
21:20 concept is counterproductive that they
21:23 would they would close the door to to
21:25 all of these other businesses and and
21:28 just focus on on this vertical but as
21:30 you said and for me I like I like to
21:33 talk about relevance the more relevant
21:35 you can be to to people their pain
21:38 points even the way they talk uh you
21:40 know the the uh the personality that
21:43 they use you know the the more relevant
21:45 you can be to that audience the more
21:47 likely they are to to talk to you rather
21:49 than the competitor around the corner
21:52 who has the doors open to to everybody
21:54 else in in terms of in terms of strategy
21:58 because there are a lot of executioners
22:00 out there we I don't know of any other
22:03 industry where we have so many different
22:05 verticals so many different Specialists
22:08 who really work on the same thing but
22:10 from a completely different angle from
22:13 designers to copywriters to social media
22:16 marketers do you believe that having a
22:19 baseline understanding of
22:21 strategy is really important for
22:24 executioners and and do you believe that
22:26 will help them in the
22:28 work okay so either you're working in
22:31 the system or you're working on the
22:32 system if you work in the system it
22:36 would really help if you were seen as
22:37 the best at what you do so if you are a
22:41 book cover designer and you make the
22:43 best book covers you're never going to
22:45 have to look for work you don't have to
22:47 change the publishing system you don't
22:49 have to change the way people engage
22:51 with books you are the Executioner the
22:54 person who knows how to do that really
22:56 well and if you're like me and you have
22:59 a limited attention
23:01 span and you are focused on uh making a
23:06 change happen it helps to be able to
23:08 change the system and if you want to
23:10 change the system you have to understand
23:13 the system you have to see the system
23:14 you have to be able to
23:17 cause uh actions to occur that will
23:20 change the game and that's what great
23:23 brands do once you figure that out you
23:27 get all this new resilience because
23:29 there's other things you can focus on
23:31 there are other tactics available to you
23:34 so I think those are the two paths one
23:36 or the other and I don't know very many
23:39 people who do brand strategy well like
23:43 people at very big famous companies will
23:45 reach out to me and say do you know who
23:47 we should hire to do this and I can
23:49 think of tons of people who can do
23:51 tactics but they need someone to tell
23:53 them what to do and there aren't there
23:56 aren't very many people who can show up
23:59 and actually have a
24:01 strategy yeah and and that's what I'm
24:03 finding as well because you have the the
24:07 you have the the tacticians now on the
24:09 front lines because they're Freelancers
24:12 uh and you know small shops and they're
24:14 asking their clients you know their
24:16 clients are giving them work and and
24:19 they're asking questions well why should
24:21 we do this you know what's the reason
24:23 behind it and and that's why so many of
24:25 these tacticians are are turning inwards
24:28 now uh to work in the business instead
24:31 of on the business because they're
24:32 starting to ask those questions and
24:34 they're realizing those questions need
24:37 answering before we do anything and you
24:39 know that by asking those questions
24:41 that's where you're getting to the heart
24:42 of of strategy so yeah look I'm I'm a
24:45 big proponent for really having the
24:48 fundamentals of strategy regardless of
24:51 your your uh your your Tactical work if
24:53 you're in the realm of branding um but I
24:56 think that's becoming even more
24:57 important uh more important now
25:00 permission marketing uh Seth you wrote
25:03 the book on it and it's uh it's
25:05 something that I'm a a you know I'm a
25:09 I'm a follower I'm a I'm a believer I'm
25:12 I'm a preacher of of permission
25:13 marketing because I find that it's it's
25:16 a much more intimate place it's it's
25:18 where I express myself most I know it's
25:21 where you do as well with your with your
25:23 your blog and your newsletter and you
25:26 know you're not on the front lines you
25:28 know trying to trying to uh get attent
25:31 you've got their attention already and
25:32 you've got their permission and then now
25:34 it's about that relationship
25:37 building in terms of where we're going
25:40 at the moment is there is there anything
25:42 changing for you in the space of
25:44 permission marketing or anything around
25:46 it or do you still feel that this is
25:49 ultimately the the best place for
25:51 nurturing your clients okay so narcissis
25:56 narcissistic shortterm thinking selfish
26:00 self-absorbed hustling marketers have
26:04 ruined every medium they've shown up in
26:07 because they think I just have to get
26:09 the word out that I have some sort of
26:10 moral right to spam and steal attention
26:13 yeah and you know in the time that I
26:15 will be on this call I will have gotten
26:17 a dozen notes asking if people can be on
26:20 my podcast from people who have never
26:22 listened to my podcast because I've
26:23 never once had a guest right but they
26:25 buy a list and spam a it
26:28 um it really offends me because it's
26:32 like peeing in the pool it's not helpful
26:35 and it ends up making the pool
26:38 unusable but and for the few who have
26:43 self-discipline and pull it off
26:46 permission is gold right that you know
26:49 it took me decades to build my
26:51 permission base but there are a million
26:53 people who read what I write every day
26:54 and I don't have to hustle anybody
26:56 because I get to do work for my readers
27:00 instead of looking for readers for my
27:01 work what a privilege and we see this in
27:05 all these Brands and industries that
27:07 people say they want to Aspire to be
27:09 like but they don't want to do the hard
27:11 work of earning the asset and the asset
27:15 might not be email it might be a
27:17 telephone call it might be visiting
27:19 somebody it might be SMS that's not the
27:21 question the question is would we miss
27:23 you if you were gone and I got to say
27:26 most people call Brands the answer is no
27:30 that uh if H hotels disappeared we just
27:34 stay in a different
27:37 Hotel oh I I I love the finish of every
27:41 single sentence that that that you've
27:43 been putting forward yeah look like in
27:48 um with with my uh with my list for uh
27:53 BR Master Academy I'm I'm ruthless with
27:56 pruning that I've pruned
27:58 uh you know probably probably over
28:00 60,000 people and and I'm I'm still only
28:03 at 35,000 people but I've got you know
28:07 45 to 50% open rates and you know that's
28:10 telling me that keep pruning you know
28:14 because you know the the the ones who
28:16 are staying there are are the ones who
28:19 are telling you what they want so you
28:21 know you can use that for a feedback
28:23 loop as well and it's going to be your
28:25 most dialed in feedback loop so you know
28:28 pruning is is something that's that's
28:30 really important do you prune your your
28:32 list at all and with that with your your
28:43 um I've intentionally decom mercial all
28:47 this kind of work so there's no upside
28:51 for me to make my open rate go up I
28:54 don't know what my you're not a metrics
28:56 man yeah I mean I used to be I invented
28:59 email marketing and so we were really
29:02 metric focused but it wasn't helping my
29:05 work get better as a Creator so I
29:08 stopped doing it um the thing that's the
29:11 thing that's happened with email is
29:14 there's so much breakage along the way
29:17 and then Gmail comes along they put my
29:21 blog in the promo folder my my blog is
29:23 in a promo and they don't do it for
29:26 everybody but they do it often enough to
29:28 annoy me those people aren't
29:30 unsubscribing and they're not unopening
29:32 it they're just not seeing it and then
29:34 one day months from now it they change
29:38 it and it comes back I'm like okay great
29:40 fine if I'm helpful fine if people go
29:43 looking for it fine but I'm not g to
29:44 spend my days because you're looking at
29:46 my entire team it's just me and I don't
29:49 want to optimize I just want to do my
29:53 people want to share you you're in that
29:56 position now where you just I'm not a
29:57 good example right I think I think your
30:01 example makes a lot of sense pruning it
30:04 isn't as important as you being clear
30:06 about who these people are writing for
30:10 people who need you to write for them
30:13 that if you are writing for the right
30:15 people they'll prune themselves and
30:18 being clear to yourself about who it's
30:20 for and what it's more that makes a big
30:23 difference I love that if you're writing
30:25 for the right people they'll themselves
30:28 that's a quote right there um
30:30 authenticity you like to speak about
30:31 authenticity and and I've written about
30:33 authenticity and it's kind of gotten a
30:36 bad repap because it's on on the one
30:38 hand it's like well you know duh it's
30:41 like it's like saying you know one of
30:44 our values is integrity there are some
30:46 Basics that are just you know assumed
30:51 um why do you feel there is a need for
30:54 for this this uh sense of authentic it
30:57 and and what's what are some of the
30:59 better ways that we can that we can kind
31:02 of display that in our in our
31:05 messaging okay so I'm sort of known for
31:08 being the anti- authenticity person I'm
31:12 Pro Integrity person integrity means
31:15 being in being in and of
31:18 itself and authenticity is this internet
31:22 thing of if you feel like being a jerk
31:24 be a jerk and say I was just being
31:26 authentic no one wants you to be
31:29 authentic what we want is for you to be
31:33 consistent so whether or not you feel
31:36 like being the best version of yourself
31:39 we need you to be the best version of
31:41 yourself because that's what we paid
31:43 for and so articulate what that is if
31:48 you're a surgeon if you're a copywriter
31:50 if you're doing customer service what
31:52 would be the best version of you if you
31:54 are authentically in a bad mood What
31:56 would be the integral version of you
31:59 what do people see when you think that
32:02 no one is looking that is what people
32:05 care about every time I hear people talk
32:06 about authenticity I think what they're
32:08 looking for is an excuse to be difficult
32:11 or to be a troll I was just being
32:13 authentic yeah well then go away because
32:15 I have no interest in
32:17 you H I want to switch gears into
32:20 something that is kind of been thrust
32:23 Upon Us in the last uh you know um in
32:27 the last year or so and that is
32:29 artificial intelligence in branding and
32:32 marketing how do you see it's going to
32:34 change the discipline what's branding of
32:36 marketing going to look like in five
32:39 years time I know it's to it's it's it's
32:41 too difficult now to to say 10 years
32:43 what do you think it's going to be like
32:44 in in five years time and also how
32:47 should professionals try to approach it
32:51 ahead okay I think AI is the biggest
32:54 change in our world since the invention
32:58 a bigger change than the internet um and
33:01 if you're not using it for half an hour
33:03 a day you don't understand you should
33:05 you need to put it on your calendar and
33:07 go use it so I put a 40-page business
33:11 claw. uh the plan had been written by
33:14 six people over the course of three
33:16 months it was a gradual incremental
33:18 thing and I said please read this
33:20 business plan and highlight the
33:21 contradictions and paradoxes within and
33:24 less than 10 seconds later it wrote me a
33:26 two-page NBA quality memo highlighting
33:29 things about it that we needed to go
33:31 fix um every word that I put out there
33:34 with my name on it was written by me but
33:37 if I was starting today that would not
33:40 true and uh what AI does today is it
33:45 replaces competence if you are simply
33:49 mediocre I can get an AI to do it
33:51 cheaper and faster than you and that
33:54 means that the only space left is is to
33:57 not be simply competent to not simply be
34:01 what people expect you have to figure
34:03 out how to do something that AI couldn't
34:05 do because that's the only thing worth
34:06 charging for and when you are doing work
34:10 that could be done by AI you should have
34:12 ai do it so you can get back to the work
34:14 that we need to pay you for and so you
34:16 know if I'm a company that comes up with
34:18 brand names oh boy you're in big trouble
34:20 because I can just I can give AI the
34:23 right prompt and get 100 brand names
34:24 faster than you can sit down at your
34:26 desk m and if you go to k
34:30 kitl they can design logos and and
34:34 things that a logo like instantly in
34:37 large quantity not the world's best not
34:39 chip kid quality but one level below
34:41 that so if you're already one level
34:43 below chip kid you got a problem so what
34:46 do you do what do you so for the
34:47 designer or the brand nameer who's
34:49 looking at a icon oh no what am I going
34:53 now what would your first Direction uh
34:56 what would your first instinct be to to
34:59 evolve and keep your head above water
35:01 well I think the first thing is I would
35:03 like to see the certificate that you
35:04 have that says we're never going to
35:05 change the system and you're guaranteed
35:07 your old job forever because I don't
35:09 think you have that certificate the job
35:11 you have didn't exist 40 years ago so
35:16 why do you think it's G to live forever
35:18 it's not right and so we got to start by
35:22 saying you have helped create change and
35:25 now change is coming after you when the
35:27 steam shovel came along the ditch
35:28 diggers didn't say oh this isn't fair
35:31 they figured out how to operate a steam
35:33 shovel well the same thing is is true
35:37 opportunity for agile smart people to
35:41 take advantage of AI over the next three
35:43 years are enormous that there's going to
35:46 be this huge like you we just gave you
35:50 5,000 uh shoemakers and and you're a
35:53 cobbler and they're going to work all
35:54 night for you 5,000 of them so hire them
35:59 work yeah it is that's it like it's it's
36:03 about it's about learning and embracing
36:05 and um you know just just using the
36:09 tools at our disposal and that's all
36:11 we've ever had um someone in the group
36:14 asked me how do you feel about every
36:17 single uh post now sounding like Seth
36:20 golden because prompts are out there
36:21 saying write it like Seth
36:25 Goden I'm very flattered by this I um
36:29 there was a five or 10 year period when
36:31 I was writing my blog when if I wasn't
36:34 having a great day I would just say to
36:35 myself well what would Seth do because
36:38 it's about the consistent thing right
36:40 that I was visualizing a voice in my
36:43 head that is the archetype of me but
36:46 some days I'm not that person
36:47 authentically I just need to be
36:48 consistent now computers can do that so
36:51 I have to figure out how to write a blog
36:53 post worth writing that an AI Couldn't
36:55 Write and you know I had the first blog
36:58 with AI built into it you at seth. blog
37:01 you can go ask my blog any question you
37:03 want and I took a lot of care to make
37:05 sure it's not saying this is Seth
37:07 talking it's an AI talking about what my
37:09 blog was about and what I'm helping
37:15 is being parodied being copied is a
37:19 compliment and but it also means that
37:21 the person who's being complimented has
37:24 to raise their game MH
37:27 yeah absolutely Seth I'm not going to
37:29 keep you too much longer you're at the
37:31 beginning of your day I'm sure you've
37:32 got a ton of things to do however and
37:34 I've got Murray here who's oh you got
37:36 Murr time yes you gonna introduce Murray
37:39 or no M Murray's happy the shelter he's
37:42 been here for five weeks I'm doing my
37:43 best okay okay beautiful love to hear it
37:47 um so if if if I had to strip you of
37:50 your Seth Goden title and uh put you at
37:54 the head of an unfunded start up with
37:57 pretty limited budget what would be the
37:59 top three things that you do to get that
38:04 map okay well the first question is are
38:07 you seeing to be funded or not if you're
38:09 seeking to be funded you have to make
38:11 something that funders want to fund that
38:13 doesn't mean it's a good business it
38:14 means it's something funders want to
38:16 fund not my thing I'm interested in so
38:19 I'm going to leave that part number two
38:21 then is I got to build something
38:22 customers want to buy and to do that I
38:26 have to create tension the tension of my
38:29 life will be better if I listen to this
38:32 and I'm about to be left behind if I
38:35 don't and creating tension is something
38:39 that most people don't seek to do they
38:41 want to relieve tension they want to say
38:43 you have a your your back ites here's a
38:45 back scratcher done all those slots are
38:48 filled the slots that are left you know
38:50 what was yeah I'm no fan of Facebook but
38:52 what was Facebook's pitch how did they
38:54 grow it was super simple they said to uh
39:01 men uh people are talking about you
39:04 behind your back you want to see what
39:05 they're saying that was the pitch so you
39:09 had to be confident enough in yourself
39:10 to say no I don't care everybody else
39:13 flocked to the thing and then they
39:15 started talking about women so they
39:16 started saying to Harvard women people
39:18 are talking about you behind your back
39:19 you want to see what they're saying and
39:21 then you create this tension that can
39:24 only be solved with forward and
39:27 connection and then the third piece is
39:29 the network effect that the most
39:31 important thing that the internet did to
39:34 simple if you create something that
39:36 works better when other people are using
39:38 it we will tell other people the fax
39:41 machine is a perfect example of this
39:43 first person who had a fax machine what
39:45 could they do with it can't send a fax
39:47 to yourself because you get a busy
39:48 signal you got to tell your friends to
39:50 go get a fax machine so you could send
39:51 them a fax we can create things that
39:55 work better when we tell tell the others
39:57 MH yeah I love that philosophy on
40:00 tension and it uh it really speaks to
40:03 the idea that you know you you don't
40:05 find a position these days you create
40:07 one and you create one by creating
40:09 tension and I I I really really love
40:11 that now I'm I'm going to let you go
40:14 usually I ask my guests you know what
40:16 have you got coming up with what's your
40:17 call to action where can I send people
40:19 but you know you're just giving back
40:21 what's what's what's coming up for you
40:24 Seth in March we're launching a software
40:28 tool that hopefully will raise a billion
40:29 dollars for charity wow and um it's been
40:32 a labor labor love it's going very well
40:36 and people will find out about on my
40:37 blog when it's ready it'll be fun
40:39 beautiful so if uh you want to find out
40:41 about that get on over to Seth blog Seth
40:44 I really really do appreciate the time
40:46 it's been an honor and a privilege and
40:48 I've I I've I made up with this chat so
40:51 thank you so much thanks Stephen keep
40:54 making the Rus we'll see by bye
40:56 want to take a second to show some
40:58 appreciation I appreciate every single
41:00 one of our listeners but I have a soft
41:02 spot for listeners who share the love
41:04 shout out to lavala from Saudi Arabia I
41:07 found a masterpiece thank you so much
41:09 for all the great info in this podcast
41:12 if you want to share the love and
41:14 possibly get a shout out on the podcast
41:16 please take a couple of minutes to leave
41:17 a review on your favorite
41:19 platform we really hope you enjoyed
41:21 today's episode thanks so much for
41:23 listening if you want to learn more
41:25 brand strategy techniques to level up
41:27 your skills make sure you check out
41:29 brandmaster academy.com there's plenty
41:31 of free resources and premium content
41:33 for you to download and get you going if
41:35 you'd like to join our Facebook group
41:37 full of like-minded brand strategist all
41:39 learning from each other then find us by
41:41 searching for the brand strategy
41:42 Community where you can find exclusive
41:44 content for members as well if you
41:46 enjoyed this content please be sure to
41:47 give us an honest review on iTunes
41:49 Stitcher or wherever you listened and
41:51 make sure you tune in for the next
41:53 episode of the brandmaster
