Farcaster's Big Moment with Founder Dan Romero
Bankless2024-02-07
bitcoin#ethereum#defi#bankless#crypto#decentralized finance#crypto finance#open finance#ether#eth#btc#token#tokens
8K views|5 months ago
💫 Short Summary
Dan Romero, the founder of Farcaster, discusses the potential for Farcaster Frames to be a breakout use case for crypto, offering a new way to merge consumer and creator experiences in social media. He also talks about the challenges of attracting users to a new platform and the introduction of Frames, which has created excitement and drawn developer demand.Farsite is a new platform that allows developers to rapidly prototype and gain distribution and validation, meeting users where they are in the feed. The platform's frames are like mini-apps that can be embedded within the feed, offering an interactive experience. The adoption of frames by other protocols indicates their potential to become a universal solution for crypto UX, enhancing creativity and expression in the space.Dan Boneh and Dan Romero discuss the decentralized social media platform Forecaster, its architecture, blockchain integration, and the potential for scalable, decentralized, and censorship-resistant social media. Boneh emphasizes the trust and alignment with users to avoid unethical behaviors, and highlights the difference between Forecaster, a protocol, and Warp, an app, in terms of potential monetization and user control.Dan Robinson discusses the decentralization and centralization aspects of Farcaster, highlighting the practical experience from the consumer and the need to optimize features before pushing them to the protocol. He also mentions the addition of new functionality, the potential for other clients, and the focus on mobile in the crypto space.
✨ Highlights
📊 Transcript
✦
Farcaster has launched a new feature called Frames, which are programmable tweets that can do things like mint NFTs, check airdrops, or buy Girl Scout cookies.
00:00Farcaster is a Twitter-like crypto social media app.
Frames are like programmable tweets that can perform various actions.
Dan Romero believes that Frames could be a breakout use case for crypto this year.
✦
Farcaster is a crypto social media app that aims to combine the best of Twitter and Reddit, focusing on mobile entertainment and meeting people with similar interests.
05:02Farcaster is a decentralized social network where developers can build applications and have a direct relationship with users.
For the average consumer, entertainment and meeting people with similar interests are the primary motivations for using a social network.
Farcaster is designed to be a place where users can find interesting people who share similar interests.
Farcaster introduced a feature called channels, which is similar to subreddits, allowing users to consume content that appeals to their various interests.
✦
Farcaster aims to combine the ease of use of Twitter with the depth of interests found on Reddit, through its feature called channels.
10:55Farcaster's channels are similar to subreddits, where users can find content related to their specific interests.
Farcaster wants to make the channels feature more intuitive for users, but acknowledges that they are still working on it.
The goal is to create a high-quality and easy-to-navigate space for like-minded individuals within the Farcaster app.
✦
Farcaster's main focus is to provide an intuitive and entertaining experience for users, with the power of blockchain technology under the hood.
15:29The average user is not concerned about the technical aspects or decentralization, but more about the entertainment value of the platform.
Farcaster wants to merge the power of blockchain with a smooth user experience to attract a larger audience.
The introduction of frames in Farcaster is seen as a way to offer something different and exciting, similar to how Twitter's early API allowed for creative innovation.
✦
Farcaster introduced a new feature called frames, which is a simple primitive that allows developers to create interactive mini apps within the feed, leading to a surge in creativity and developer demand.
20:11Frames is a basic canvas with an image and four buttons that can be changed by clicking, creating a simple but interactive experience.
Developers have already started organizing grassroots frame hackathons and exploring the potential of frames.
The early Twitter API was open, and people got creative with replies, hashtags, and retweets within the 140-character limit.
✦
The Farsite project is a simple primitive that allows developers to rapidly prototype and gain distribution and validation.
27:38Developers have pent up demand and good ideas, but struggle to find users and distribution for their mobile apps and websites.
Farsite meets users where they are in the feed, making it easy for them to interact without switching to a different app or platform.
The next focus is on adding features to increase creativity while maintaining simplicity and constraint.
✦
Farsite frames are like portals inside Farsite to go outside and bring something from the outside world into Farsite.
35:00Frames have the potential to achieve escape velocity by being expressive enough for developers to imagine and create anything.
Other protocols outside of Farsite are adopting Farsite frames, indicating that it might be a universal solution for crypto UX.
Developers have showcased creativity by implementing frames for off-chain and on-chain purposes, such as creating a Girl Scout cookie checkout and linking frames with solidity.
✦
The interviewee discusses the potential of Farsite in the crypto space and compares it to the early days of web 2.0, highlighting the importance of having a neutral and decentralized system.
42:00The interviewee mentions the original name for Farsite was 'RSS plus' and expresses their long-time interest in the concept.
Twitter had the opportunity to take a more open path but chose increasing centralization.
The interviewee sees Farsite as a way to bring back the experimentation and innovation of the early internet era.
The fast iteration and prototyping in crypto is appealing due to the decentralized nature of the space.
The interviewee emphasizes the need for a neutral and decentralized system in order to compete with big companies.
Farsite frames are currently ephemeral, and the challenge is to make them more durable and add value to the user experience over time.
✦
The guest talks about their excitement for working on the idea of Farsite, emphasizing the importance of retaining users and building a business.
46:00The guest believes that having a protocol where a lot of people can win may lead to significant growth.
They compare their approach to the early days of web 2.0 and emphasize the need for a decentralized system that people can trust.
The guest admires Twitter's potential to be an open protocol but feels it became more centralized over time.
The guest sees censorship resistance as an important aspect for freedom of speech.
They want to create an environment for developers to tinker and experiment, similar to the early days of the internet.
The guest values the speed and iteration in crypto and aims to bring back the experimentation of 2007-2008.
They believe that frames in Farsite could be a potential way for developers to build businesses and are focused on growing the number of users on the Farsite protocol.
✦
The speaker discusses the concept of frames in the context of a new messaging protocol.
00:00Frames are like the mid-2000s discovery of web 2.0.
Frames allow for the development of more apps as more users join.
Forecaster is the most popular app, and 85% of its usage is on mobile.
The mobile app is centralized, but it connects to the decentralized Forecaster protocol.
✦
The speaker explains the three layers of the Forecaster system, including the consumer experience, the Forecaster protocol, and the identity, and how they are connected.
07:37The consumer experience is the mobile app, which is centralized like Gmail.
The Forecaster protocol is decentralized and open source, similar to a group of servers that achieve consensus.
The identity is on a blockchain and is only used to verify the authenticity of the data.
✦
The guest discusses the cost of creating a user account on the blockchain and the potential for spam if the cost is too low.
14:30There is a gate fee to create an account on the blockchain to prevent spam.
The cost has been reduced from $12 to $3 as they monitor the spam.
The goal is to find the optimal cost to prevent spam without creating too much friction for users.
✦
The blockchain records the association between a user's Ethereum address and their forecaster ID, creating a property right that is decentralized and censorship-resistant.
22:52The user has their Ethereum address associated with their forecaster ID.
The data is stored using the Opet solution on Ethereum.
The user owns their account and it is secured by the Ethereum mainnet.
✦
The guest mentions the scalability and cost of the forecaster system, and how the architecture allows for users to run their own client and hub.
30:22The system can scale to about 10 million users and would need to be sharded beyond that.
Running a self-hosted client and hub may cost about $100 a month.
The architecture allows for the identity to live outside of the company, similar to an email address.
✦
The speaker discusses the potential for warcast to have ads in the future, but users will have the option to move to other clients or run their own if they don't like the ads.
37:42Warcast is a business and will need to be monetized, but the speaker promises not to do anything scummy.
Users can move their accounts to other clients or run their own if they don't like the way warcast is being managed.
The architecture of forecaster allows for seamless migration and doesn't lock users into a specific client.
✦
David discusses the centralized features of Farcaster and the goal of decentralization in the future.
01:21:20Some features, such as the DM system and mod functionality for channels, are currently centralized and not yet pushed into the protocol.
Farcaster wants to understand the features and keep them centralized at the client level before decentralizing them.
Direct cast, the DM system, and mod functionality for channels are not decentralized at the moment.
Farcaster has earned trust with the community through three years of delivery and believes in pushing features to the protocol in the future.
✦
Dan mentions the launch of the video feature on Farcaster and the potential for building video streaming platforms on decentralized systems.
01:23:40Video feature is being launched on Farcaster, with the ability to store data on Cloudflare or other chosen platforms.
Users are free to build video streaming platforms on decentralized systems like IPFS, and the data storage location can be changed by the user.
Dan suggests that games could be a powerful frame built on Farcaster, allowing interaction across users' social graphs.
He also mentions the surprise of having a great network in Silicon Valley and crypto people, but realizing the need for an alternative decentralization.
✦
Dan acknowledges the need for a different initial go-to-market strategy and a focus on mobile in the beginning.
01:26:32He emphasizes the importance of meeting consumers where they are, which is on mobile.
Dan believes that focusing on mobile from the start could have saved time in the development process.
The guest highlights the onboarding process of Farcaster, which generates a wallet behind the scenes and offers the ability to link a phone number for free sign up.
The onboarding process is designed to reduce friction and simplify the user experience, making it crypto-powered but not crypto-forward.
✦
Dan discusses the onboarding process for Farcaster, which is designed to be simple and user-friendly, allowing people to use the platform without needing to understand crypto in depth.
01:30:22The onboarding process for Farcaster is designed to be simple and user-friendly, allowing people to use the platform without needing to understand crypto in depth.
Users are not required to connect a metamask or purchase eth to use the platform.
The focus is on reducing friction and simplifying the onboarding process to attract more users to the platform.
The guest mentions that by using the platform, people will automatically have an ethereum wallet, which can help to gradually introduce them to crypto.
00:00 we only win and and we only get actually
00:02 frankly crypto I think to a much broader
00:04 group of people if it stops being just
00:07 about crypto and more about like what is
00:09 this the the kind of cool things that
00:11 crypto under especially under the hood
00:12 are enabling right so you could imagine
00:14 um every channel could have some type of
00:16 membership nft and Reddit has an example
00:19 of like people who are in a subreddit uh
00:21 they can have flare but what if that
00:23 flare was basically associated with the
00:24 nft one that's better monetization for
00:27 the potential creator of that channel
00:29 two uh can't be rugged right so Reddit
00:32 went through a big thing last year with
00:33 the API like a bunch of mods were
00:35 unhappy like you could imagine a world
00:37 where forecaster channel is like okay I
00:40 I don't like the way Dan and team are
00:42 are headed my my my user base is
00:44 actually on chain I can kind of fork it
00:46 out and go do something different and so
00:48 I think we want to balance the the
00:50 average user doesn't care about that but
00:52 the Creator does and how can you
00:53 actually merge those two experiences
00:55 together where you have this amazing
00:56 consumer experience on mobile in an app
00:59 but the power of of kind of blockchain
01:02 under the
01:05 foot bankless Nation Dan remero on the
01:08 podcast today he is the founder of
01:09 farcaster now farcaster is a
01:12 twitter-like crypto social media app
01:13 that launched what could prove to be a
01:16 killer new feature at least I think so
01:18 and David thinks so they're called
01:20 frames you could think of these as
01:22 programmable tweets where each tweet is
01:25 actually an app in itself the cool thing
01:27 is anyone can build a frame a frame can
01:29 be built that mints an nft that checks
01:32 an airdrop that buys a Girl Scout cookie
01:34 that was an actual example Dan gave in
01:36 the podcast today basically anything you
01:39 can program you can do and I feel the
01:41 confidence to call this now and call it
01:43 early I think that foraster frames could
01:46 be a breakout use case for crypto this
01:47 year and a way to calls like this do not
01:49 come often from Ryan Shan Adams they
01:51 don't um we're only one week in so I
01:55 feel like this is very much a Frontier
01:56 episode and maybe an overly confident
01:59 call but uh and I wouldn't be surprised
02:01 David if there's some skepticism but I
02:03 see this and I just see what feels like
02:05 the future uh for me David this was
02:08 almost like the first time I used maker
02:09 Dow not quite that impactful but like in
02:12 the same order of magnitud I know uh but
02:15 truly it's the first time I've been
02:17 excited by uh crypto social and this
02:19 this kind of new wave of apps that we're
02:21 about to see and I think I'm most
02:23 excited because I feel like we might be
02:24 on the cusp of picking up where the
02:26 internet took a wrong turn back in 2008
02:29 with the the Twitter protocol and this
02:31 might be an example of crypto getting us
02:33 back on track yeah we'll see after the
02:36 listener listens this episode with Dan
02:37 what what they are thinking I see what
02:39 you see you have uh a lot of confidence
02:42 but um maybe that's up for the listener
02:43 to decide before we get into the show
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03:08 sponsoring that message uh so so I gave
03:10 my bul case in the intro David what what
03:12 was your take going to this episode just
03:14 very satisfied about the direction that
03:16 Dan has taken foraster um my two main
03:21 web 2 apps that I have defined my web
03:23 two activities over the last like five
03:25 10 years have been Reddit and Twitter
03:27 and both of those have aggressively
03:30 decayed in they in how I experience them
03:34 and what I use them for I'm basically
03:36 never on Reddit anymore and I'm on
03:38 Twitter in a more muted fashion you
03:41 should see the number of muted words I
03:42 have um and now farcaster built by this
03:45 crypto native in the year 2023 and four
03:48 are is building a hybrid of these two
03:50 things the best of what I enjoy about
03:53 both uh and doing it with all my friends
03:55 in there doing crypto native stuff it's
03:57 like I feel very blessed that Dan is
03:59 doing doing this and building this uh
04:01 and he's also just um the correct
04:04 thinker he's a builder he's a thinker uh
04:07 and he's he's building in the right
04:08 direction and this whole frames thing I
04:11 think foraster first needed to just
04:14 optimize for Serendipity get users in be
04:16 a replacement to Twitter uh build the
04:18 foundations and then figure out
04:20 something with a little bit more magic
04:22 they could never have started with
04:23 frames for example but now that they
04:25 have Clay to work with which are the
04:27 farters out there um now they have
04:29 something for frames to be able to
04:31 express themselves and so um you're very
04:33 confident I'm not to say I'm not a I'm a
04:35 bear on this but uh I you're the one who
04:38 I think is like really wait I'm gasing
04:40 your brakes well no you're not you're
04:42 not gas you're just the the the super
04:44 mega bull I'm also bullish on this I
04:46 guess I just want to see I just want to
04:48 see more stuff I want to see I want to
04:49 see shelling points emerge around which
04:51 are some of the best frames out there uh
04:53 and have those be recycled and reused
04:55 and reiterated on let's see what the
04:57 bank list Nation thinks guys we'll get
04:58 right to the episode with Dan but before
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07:51 you once again to Dan Romero he's the
07:53 co-founder of foraster which is what a
07:56 sufficiently decentralized that's a key
07:58 phrase here here social media
08:00 application it looks a lot like Twitter
08:03 but under the hood it's actually a lot
08:05 different I have used this app
08:07 increasingly in 2024 I found it a much
08:10 less toxic place than some of the other
08:12 social media apps I use out there and
08:14 now uh forecaster has had kind of a
08:17 almost what looks like the beginning of
08:19 a killer app type moment with a new
08:21 feature set called frames we're going to
08:23 explore all of that with Dan Romero on
08:25 the conversation today Dan how you doing
08:27 welcome back to bankless thanks for
08:29 having me I'm doing well okay so it was
08:32 it's been like a year since we had you
08:33 on and I think in our first episode we
08:35 talked a lot about farcaster under the
08:37 hood it was sort of nerdy type technical
08:39 questions deep forecaster yeah and so I
08:41 think what we want to uh start with
08:43 maybe like is just give us the quick
08:45 tldr on what farcaster is and then like
08:49 let's uh go through the last 12 months
08:52 in uh fast forward like 2x speed or
08:55 something and and get us to where we are
08:57 today like everything that's been built
08:59 but first what is forecaster how do you
09:02 explain it like I'm
09:03 five yeah so forecaster is a
09:05 decentralized social network and I think
09:08 for a developer they grock that
09:10 immediately they they understand that
09:12 okay I I can actually go build an
09:14 application on this network and have a
09:17 direct relationship with my users but
09:19 for the average consumer they don't care
09:21 decentralization doesn't mean anything
09:22 to them they're not at risk of getting
09:24 deplatformed or in in a meaningful way
09:26 in the sense that they don't have a big
09:28 audience I mean think last year we
09:29 talked about YouTube was a bit of a a
09:32 challenge for you guys at one point and
09:33 obviously your audience is your business
09:36 um so I think for creators they also
09:39 grock that but I think the average
09:41 consumer um they don't care right what
09:44 what does a consumer actually care about
09:45 when they're using social network it's
09:47 probably some combination of
09:50 entertainment which is the primary think
09:52 like Tik Tok and then I think there's
09:55 like kind of a secondary thing which
09:57 maybe is like a a little bit more
09:58 Instagram or Snapchat it's like meeting
10:01 people if you're younger maybe dating
10:03 people or hooking up with people but B
10:04 basically those are your kind of like
10:05 two primary motivations for using a
10:07 social network and so if you take
10:09 something like Twitter Twitter is
10:11 entertainment right people can tell
10:13 themselves that they're following the
10:14 news or or being informed but the
10:16 reality is it's very much entertainment
10:18 um really simple puristic where do
10:21 people use the app most of the time so I
10:23 think Twitter actually released some of
10:25 these user minutes by device earlier in
10:28 last year I think 88% of time spent on
10:31 Twitter is on Bubble right so we're
10:33 we're kind of these professionals we
10:35 have these like really nice computers we
10:36 sit in front of them all day we we're
10:38 terminally online and we kind of think
10:40 everyone else as like us but the reality
10:42 is consumers they're they're using
10:45 social media when they're on the couch
10:46 or waiting in line for coffee and that
10:48 happens on mobile and so entertainment
10:51 mobile is is kind of the the thing a
10:54 social network is and so what we've done
10:57 is a little bit long-winded but a lot of
10:59 focus in the last six months for
11:01 forecaster is actually trying to get it
11:02 to a place where I can easily describe
11:04 it to Consumer and so one thing that we
11:07 don't do anymore I I never average
11:10 person I'll never describe it as a
11:11 sufficiently decentralized network they
11:12 don't care I don't talk about the
11:14 decentralization I just say forecaster
11:16 is a place where you can find
11:17 interesting people that share similar
11:19 interest to you online similar to Reddit
11:21 and I think that is actually a much
11:23 simpler pitch for the average consumer
11:26 as to why would I care why would I want
11:28 to go sign up on it
11:29 and I don't think we've nailed it in the
11:30 sense that hey you know don't think that
11:34 that's how other people are describing
11:35 forecaster at this point they're still
11:37 very much being like Oh it's this cool
11:38 decentralized social network if you're
11:39 into crypto Etc but I think the big push
11:42 for us in 2024 is if I come back on this
11:44 podcast next year I should have a very
11:46 crisp answer on that and then more
11:49 importantly that's how most people
11:50 should be describing forecaster is is
11:52 the kind of thing what is it what need
11:53 is it solving for a consumer rather than
11:56 talking about the tech and so I think
11:58 we're very much in transition is is to
12:00 kind of answer that I think when when I
12:01 hop on to farcaster um it's first and
12:04 foremost familiar to me uh comparing it
12:07 to Twitter like looks a lot like Twitter
12:08 it behaves a lot like like Twitter
12:10 there's a growing flavor of forecaster
12:13 that's also increasingly Reddit likee
12:14 which is lovely for me because I'm no
12:16 longer a Reddit user really ever since I
12:19 don't know maybe two or three years ago
12:20 but for someone who's never used
12:21 farcaster before but are familiar with
12:23 the the landscape of web 2 applications
12:26 if they were to open up farcaster and at
12:29 it uh what would be the first standout
12:31 difference to them that they would
12:32 notice like oh this thing is is new or
12:34 what's the new behavior that um foraster
12:36 enables or
12:37 prioritizes yeah so that's it's a great
12:39 way of describing it is it's the ux of
12:41 Twitter on mobile which I think Twitter
12:44 really pushed the feed like Facebook and
12:45 Twitter and the kind of like early
12:47 version of web 2 social media on mobile
12:50 like feed is that's where it kind of
12:52 emerged and then I think later Instagram
12:55 um Reddit never has been a mobile
12:57 product like it kind of
12:59 existed in the pre-mobile era like I
13:01 think anyone I talk to who uses Reddit
13:03 seriously they use it on desktop and
13:05 it's kind of designed you know the
13:06 threaded conversation view it feels like
13:08 a forum a hacker news like so that
13:11 that's very much it and so I think what
13:13 we're trying to do is Bridge the the
13:15 kind of like familiarity and ease of use
13:17 of a of a feed like
13:19 Twitter with the depth and kind of weird
13:24 esoteric interests that you can find on
13:25 Reddit and so we have a feature on on
13:28 far called channels now which is
13:30 effectively our version of a subreddit
13:32 and so whether you're into gardening or
13:34 you know uh AA wallets in ethereum
13:38 completely different uh things you can
13:40 actually be in one feed consuming
13:42 content in a way that kind of appeals to
13:44 all of your interests and I don't think
13:46 we've quite figured it out I I think
13:48 since we launched channels and we
13:49 launched channels about halfway through
13:50 last year had a material increase in in
13:54 types of content people were posting
13:55 about prior to that it was kind of like
13:58 you standard like crypto Twitter is like
14:00 kind of there was one main conversation
14:02 it felt like one big group chat I mean
14:03 granted the network was pretty small but
14:05 people felt like they couldn't
14:07 Express you know the the kind of
14:09 multifaceted version of themselves it's
14:11 like okay yeah I might be really into
14:13 crypto but woodworking is also something
14:14 that I do on the weekend like and and so
14:16 the ability to actually kind of wear
14:17 many hats uh felt very limited because
14:20 it's like well maybe my followers don't
14:22 like woodworking but in a world where
14:24 channels show up and I can kind of like
14:26 you can almost think of it's like a
14:26 hashtag if you're just like a Twitter
14:28 person
14:29 but hashtags are kind of cringe and they
14:31 get really spammy and so the goal with
14:33 channels is to kind of nudge it in more
14:34 of a subreddit Direction where they're
14:35 actually kind of communities there's a
14:38 our version of a mod is called the host
14:39 but but there's kind of like building a
14:41 a way that kind of these spaces feel
14:44 really high quality and an easy way for
14:46 you to find other like-minded
14:48 individuals and so I think um again it
14:52 kind of like where we want toe this year
14:54 is get to a place where all that feels
14:55 really intuitive which is actually quite
14:57 challenging in the sense of you show up
14:59 into an app there's no one guiding you
15:01 through it and so actually that first
15:03 run experience of like how does the feed
15:05 show like do you kind of grock that
15:08 these are in different you know
15:09 categories and and like how those
15:11 categories work channels um we're we're
15:14 very far from nailing that but I think
15:16 we've made a lot of progress and and
15:17 that's very much the focus of where we
15:19 want to be this year because and I'll
15:20 just keep reiterating it today we only
15:22 win and and we only get actually frankly
15:25 crypto I think to a much broader group
15:27 of people if it's stops being just about
15:29 crypto and more about like what is this
15:32 the the kind of cool things that crypto
15:34 under especially under the hood are
15:35 enabling right so you could imagine um
15:37 every channel could have some type of
15:39 membership nft and Reddit has an example
15:42 of like people who are in a subreddit uh
15:44 they can have flare but what if that
15:46 flare was basically associated with the
15:47 nft one that's better monetization for
15:50 the potential creator of that channel
15:52 two uh can't be rugged right so Reddit
15:55 went through a big thing last year with
15:56 the API like a bunch of mods were
15:58 unhappy happy like you could imagine a
16:00 world where foraster channel is like
16:02 okay I I don't like the way Dan and team
16:05 are are headed my my my user base is
16:07 actually on chain I can kind of fork it
16:09 out and go do something different and so
16:11 I think we want to balance the the
16:13 average user doesn't care about that but
16:15 the Creator does and how can you
16:16 actually merge those two experiences
16:18 together where you have this amazing
16:19 consumer experience on mobile in an app
16:22 but the power of of kind of blockchain
16:25 under the hood or another way to think
16:26 about it is like a mullet right it's
16:27 like you know in the front party in the
16:29 back and it's like you you kind of have
16:31 this like very clean nice feeling
16:33 experience when you're using the app and
16:35 then all of the stuff that can happen on
16:37 blockchain and you guys are very well
16:39 aware of how how things how crazy things
16:40 could start to get but like that's all
16:42 permissionless and it can just happen
16:43 and so I think that's kind of the
16:45 mentality that we want to push but to to
16:48 again reiterate I I think anytime we are
16:51 talking about the crypto as the the
16:53 appeal of forecaster outside of
16:55 targeting crypto natives we're kind of
16:57 losing because we're not thinking bigger
16:58 picture of like H how can we actually
17:00 take this to you know 100 million people
17:02 or a billion people and and that
17:04 certainly is not just going to be harp
17:06 on the crypto it's it's more like what
17:08 can this do for me and and why why am I
17:10 interested where's the entertainment
17:11 value coming yeah I think I think your
17:14 framing of like decentralization is not
17:16 a feature that uh users really care
17:18 about or normies care about like that
17:19 resonates with me because like very much
17:22 uh you may maybe a a Creator and also a
17:25 a user of many of these social media
17:27 applications including being probably
17:29 terminally online last year uh on on
17:32 apps like Twitter right and um I very
17:35 much and of course many bankless
17:36 listeners many people are in crypto for
17:38 kind of the the values we're here for
17:39 the tech we're here for the
17:40 decentralization Bro right that's why
17:42 we're here that's kind of the ethos and
17:44 yet it still up to this point hasn't
17:47 been enough for me to like actually
17:49 invest in something like farcaster and
17:52 I'll tell you why it's just because the
17:54 network effects are so large on the
17:56 existing social media tools that we use
17:59 like a YouTube or like a Twitter right I
18:02 mean talked to Chris Dixon uh earlier
18:04 this week he's like I've spent years of
18:06 my life investing like not as a a
18:09 landlord but as a surf inside of this
18:11 application but like I don't want to
18:13 lose all of that Network effect I don't
18:15 want to lose that distribution and so
18:17 even the decentralized features uh
18:20 haven't been enough for me to like
18:21 totally push over and convert except
18:24 until recently and I'll share maybe my
18:26 story Dan so I would I left a 2023 like
18:31 really burnt out on um you know
18:36 specifically Twitter Okay and like it
18:38 was becoming a much different platform
18:40 than when I first start like when I
18:43 first started in um crypto Twitter
18:46 anyway you know 2017 it was um it wasn't
18:49 perfect it was still toxic in places but
18:52 it was a learning engine for me and I
18:55 followed people I I I used it as a tool
18:57 to level up on crypto to meet people
18:59 David and I met on Twitter started the
19:01 bankless podcast that way it like there
19:04 was some uh bad parts about it but the
19:06 benefits far exceeded the cost and then
19:08 I looked at where I spent my time in
19:11 2023 and it felt like that was no longer
19:14 the case it was actually like
19:16 increasingly toxic for me to be and I
19:19 almost felt like in a strange way kind
19:21 of maybe addicted to it is like part
19:24 part of that but also just um I don't
19:27 know it was this kind of like a Hall of
19:30 Mirrors type of um environment that I
19:34 felt like I had to engage just to kind
19:36 of like protect reputation we get in
19:37 these you know all sorts of chaos anyway
19:40 I decided to further invest in in
19:42 forecaster in crypto social after this
19:45 just because it was a more wholesome
19:46 place I would post something on
19:48 farcaster and I wouldn't get drowned out
19:51 by like clout chasing kind of tweets
19:53 that just uh are more interested in
19:55 dunking than engaging the conversation
19:57 and so so that was the first value
19:59 proposition for me is it just felt more
20:02 wholesome and more refreshing and I
20:04 don't know whether that's like farcaster
20:06 is using a different algorithm or if
20:08 that's just because like a whole bunch
20:11 it's a smaller Community right it's a
20:13 bunch of kind of the nerdy Geeks that
20:14 are interested in that sort of wholesome
20:16 type of conversation so it just attracts
20:18 that community and that's why I have
20:20 been dedicating much more time to
20:22 farcaster in uh 2024 and that's like the
20:26 first value proposition but even still
20:28 Dan I got to say that has just kind of
20:30 like gotten us to parody level with uh
20:34 the features that existing social media
20:37 platforms offer okay and it doesn't have
20:39 the reacher distribution what has
20:41 excited me so much was something that
20:44 happened within actually the last week
20:46 time that we're recording which is
20:48 forecaster introduction of frames and
20:52 for me this is the first time I saw the
20:54 potential of like a killer app type
20:57 experience in crypto social and The
21:00 Innovation that that unleashes so maybe
21:03 I want to talk about both of those
21:04 things but could we start with frames
21:07 because that is an exciting new
21:09 development and I want to get your take
21:10 on it and maybe you could start by
21:13 explaining what frames is and explaining
21:16 what um has just sort of exploded on the
21:18 scene in in the last week sure so let me
21:22 can I just go back to one thing you
21:23 brought up and this is this is the
21:25 existential problem for us to solve is
21:28 you know the both of you you've worked
21:30 really hard to build audiences on
21:31 Twitter like you you've ground those
21:33 numbers up you have an audience you have
21:35 influence that is is is your livelihood
21:37 is is your audience
21:39 right we are not going to be able to get
21:42 people to switch over the people who are
21:44 generating kind of the content that that
21:45 kind of earns that type of audience
21:47 unless we have enough users that the
21:49 audience is is somewhat comparable
21:51 especially in a mode where the early
21:54 version of foraster you could describe
21:56 as a Twitter clone right so it feels
21:58 very much like Twitter so it's like okay
22:00 so it's a worse version of Twitter with
22:02 fewer people as a as a person who with
22:05 limited amount of time who who's using
22:06 an audience to actually drive a business
22:09 why would you go invest time there and
22:11 maybe with the exception of a true
22:13 ideological uh pure person like vitalic
22:15 who who has 5 million followers on
22:17 Twitter and and basically kind of
22:19 abandon it for the most part I think
22:21 very few people and and I don't hold
22:23 anything against them at first it used
22:24 to be a little salty it'd be like oh you
22:26 talk about crypto and then you don't
22:27 want to use the de centralized thing
22:29 that was just cope on my part the
22:30 reality is the only way we are going to
22:32 earn people's attention is if we offer
22:35 something either comparable like in and
22:38 and the way to be comparable to Twitter
22:39 is audience size so that's really hard
22:40 for us to do or start to change the game
22:43 and offer something different and I
22:45 actually think that ties into frames
22:47 where uh up until frames we really
22:50 didn't have you know we had a few
22:52 features here and there some nft stuff
22:54 and but but nothing to kind of like
22:55 really draw you in and then in the last
22:58 last week uh it's it's kind of wild
23:00 frames frames is less than a week old we
23:03 we launched a a very simple um mini app
23:07 primitive that can exist in a feed and I
23:10 think that the simplest way to think
23:11 about this is if you go to Twitter and
23:14 you do a poll today that's a special
23:16 type of post right like most posts are
23:18 text image video you have buttons at the
23:21 bottom that's how you interact if if you
23:23 kind of want to do more you either reply
23:24 or you you you quote tweet with a poll
23:28 you at least have a couple of kind of
23:30 options obviously the person who created
23:31 the poll could could Define those and
23:33 then you click and then there's kind of
23:34 some interactivity within the the Tweet
23:37 so now imagine taking that as as kind of
23:40 like a just a very basic primitive you
23:41 have a canvas that you can kind of put
23:43 an image or whatever you want to render
23:45 and four buttons that's it like we we
23:47 didn't allow anything else there's no
23:49 video there's no you know anything else
23:51 magic um it's it's it's a hack of um
23:54 there's some irony here we're using open
23:56 graph which uh for the Nerds it was
23:59 actually something that Facebook
24:00 invented back in like 20072 2008 when
24:03 Facebook had an app platform and it's
24:06 kind of um it's like the tailbone where
24:07 it's like we we still have a tailbone
24:09 because at one point we were we were
24:11 animals that had tails vetiga organ
24:14 exactly so so open graph is this thing
24:16 if you if you Google open graph right
24:17 now you will see a page that Facebook
24:19 hosts but they're not working on they
24:22 haven't been working on for a decade and
24:24 actually Twitter then extended it so
24:26 you'll notice that sometimes when you
24:27 share a link on Twitter you get the
24:30 small icon or you get the really big one
24:33 and then obviously since uh the new
24:35 regime has come in links have been
24:37 absolutely nerfed on Twitter and they've
24:39 even reduced the amount of space that
24:40 they give and they only use this big
24:42 open graph image but um for the
24:44 developer out there that's a pretty
24:46 simple thing to go add to any website so
24:47 you can like add the big card for
24:49 Twitter and the small one for Facebook
24:50 or LinkedIn you know nothing's happened
24:53 with open graph since since that so what
24:55 we did is we actually hacked open graph
24:56 to make it more Interactive active so
24:58 that anytime you click one of these
25:00 buttons in this little mini app in the
25:02 feed we are sending a message back to
25:05 wherever that open graph was coming and
25:06 saying hey I click this button what what
25:07 should be the next image we serve that's
25:09 it it was is an insanely simple
25:12 primitive and and what you get out of
25:14 that is developers within like an hour
25:18 of us launching started to have frames
25:20 and then it kind of ran into the weekend
25:22 and people started to organize
25:24 Grassroots um frame hackathons and all
25:27 this other kind of stuff because it was
25:29 just a huh I have a I have one image I
25:32 can change and I have four buttons how
25:34 creative can I get and and within uh 24
25:37 hours someone had figured out how to put
25:39 Doom the video game inside of a frame
25:43 and we're not again remember this is
25:44 this is not video there's no kind of
25:46 like all these other it it was rendering
25:49 per time you clicked and there was a
25:51 little like the gun emoji plus like the
25:53 different ways you could go and that was
25:54 it um someone built chests uh so so so
25:58 the creativity with those constraints
26:00 was just incredible and actually if if
26:03 if it reminds me of anything it actually
26:04 reminds me of how early Twitter was
26:08 because the early Twitter API was
26:10 completely open and so people built
26:12 clients but then people got really
26:14 creative within and this is back in the
26:15 era of only 140 characters people
26:18 invented at replies hashtags retweets
26:22 all in just Convention of text and so
26:24 when you have constraints people get
26:26 extremely creative
26:28 and the the same thing has kind of
26:30 happened for frames and what's really
26:32 funny is I I have a bunch of uh the
26:34 investors on on on forecaster or early
26:37 Facebook employees or investors and
26:39 they're like this is literally what
26:40 Facebook did in in 20072 2008 but then
26:43 they never ported it over to mobile for
26:45 a variety of reasons I mean obviously
26:46 Facebook is doing quite well in terms of
26:48 uh their market capitalization but um I
26:51 think it's it's been a huge uh
26:54 validation that there's tons of pent up
26:56 developer demand
26:58 for for one simple thing is a frame is
27:02 you know you have this simple primitive
27:04 but gets Max distribution in in a feed
27:06 on forecaster so even though we have a
27:08 very small number of users relative to
27:10 the big guys we're not nerfing links um
27:13 we allow this primitive to exist and so
27:17 now all of a sudden a developer can come
27:18 up with an idea launch it in this kind
27:20 of minimum viable version of a frame and
27:24 have thousands of users within an hour
27:27 um the the last time that kind of was
27:29 like a a free-for-all was mobile and and
27:32 the Facebook platform and so I think
27:34 what we're really excited about is there
27:36 there's a ton of pent up demand from
27:38 developers to say hey I have good ideas
27:40 but the the problem is if I go spend
27:42 time building a mobile app or a website
27:44 I I have no way of finding those users
27:46 and getting that distribution and so
27:48 that that is actually the the essence of
27:49 the frame is that it just it's a simple
27:51 primitive that gives developers the
27:53 ability to rapidly prototype and then
27:55 get distribution and validation very
27:57 quickly um and we could talk about other
28:00 like kind of things that we're we're
28:01 doing with it and and and kind of like
28:02 under the hood but but that's at its
28:04 core is it meets the user where they are
28:06 in the feed while they're on the couch
28:08 right they don't have to switch to a
28:09 different app they don't have to switch
28:10 to mobile web it's they're browsing they
28:13 see a little frame oh click this button
28:14 to Mint an nft Great Click no no wallet
28:18 connect just happens and so that that's
28:20 why I think it's working uh like I said
28:23 we're week in this all could go away in
28:25 two weeks but I think other protocol are
28:27 actually starting to FR which is pretty
28:29 exciting this big so so you know I'm
28:32 paranoid right Andy Grove Only The
28:33 paranoids Sur ride so I I am both
28:36 optimistic and appreciative for everyone
28:37 who's doing everything with frames but
28:39 part of me as a a founder of being like
28:41 okay well what happens if this goes away
28:42 tomorrow and so I think we're really
28:44 trying to push the team to to say like
28:46 okay what are the the next set of you
28:49 know three or four features that we can
28:50 add that increase the surface area of
28:53 creativity while still keeping it
28:55 relatively elegant and constrained so a
28:57 good example of this and we should have
28:59 this out either tomorrow or by the time
29:01 this podcast releases we're we're going
29:03 to add a text field again not not
29:05 revolutionary it's not like we're doing
29:07 neuralink or open AI level you know
29:09 engineering there but the ability for
29:11 someone to now instead of just having
29:12 these buttons to be able to type in any
29:14 message directly to the frame obvious
29:16 case that you can add is llms so now all
29:19 of a sudden anyone can go take any one
29:21 of these you know fancy new AI
29:24 applications pipe it into a frame you do
29:27 a little input as the user and who knows
29:29 where where you go from there and so I
29:32 think that is kind of how we're thinking
29:34 about it is keep things simple make it
29:37 really fast for developers to to
29:39 prototype and then and then just give
29:40 them as much distribution as possible I
29:42 see uh three threads coming out of this
29:44 conversation that you actually just
29:46 identified one the distribution of these
29:48 frames to users that that's something I
29:50 want to explore uh two the expressivity
29:53 of these frames which is what you were
29:54 just talking about just now and then
29:56 three the fact that these frames are
29:58 like portals to the outside world of
30:00 foraster they are you know little
30:02 applications frames windows that you can
30:04 peer into in farcaster that point
30:07 externally whereas like Twitter and like
30:09 the generalized web 2 platforms are
30:11 trying to actually increase the walls
30:13 you know may be more opaque you know be
30:15 more difficult to permeate outbound
30:17 frames to me seems like a portal inside
30:20 of a cast to go outside and bring
30:22 something outside from farcaster into
30:24 farcaster these are the three like kind
30:25 of threads I want to pull on I want to
30:27 start with the expressivity one which is
30:29 where you were going anyways uh there's
30:31 this um vitalic blog from 2019 uh mainly
30:35 about blockchains layer one blockchains
30:37 called base layers and functional escape
30:39 velocity and it really talks about the
30:41 difference between like Bitcoin and
30:42 ethereum and how ethereum really needed
30:44 to be minimally expressive up to a
30:47 certain point and that up to a certain
30:49 point is this like escape velocity where
30:51 like you um apply a little bit of
30:54 expressivity to ethereum and you get
30:56 this escape velocity of what of what you
30:58 can build on it and so basically tldr a
31:01 little expressivity goes a long way uh
31:03 and I think that's kind of what you are
31:04 articulating with frames is like they're
31:06 they're It's A Primitive it's very
31:08 simple um but I think kind of the
31:10 question is is C have you found uh is it
31:13 expressive enough that um these frames
31:16 have reached a part of the expressivity
31:18 landscape in which they can actually
31:19 achieve escape velocity and developers
31:22 can imagine anything and put it into a
31:24 frame that's kind of how I would Define
31:26 escape velocity do you have any
31:28 indication or knowledge or thesis about
31:31 like how are are frames expressive
31:34 enough where they are achieving scape
31:36 velocity without being overly expressive
31:38 that is like overly complicated do you
31:39 have any intuition here yeah so I I
31:41 think we we have more stuff to add I I I
31:44 don't think like the V1 is is sufficient
31:46 that said um I think a good sign that
31:50 this is yet simple Universal and and
31:53 appealing like is multiple protocols
31:56 outside of far ER are now just adopting
31:58 forecaster frames and and they're
32:00 actually just call they're not even
32:01 trying to rename them um they're just
32:02 calling them forecaster frames Now work
32:04 on this prot cool so generally okay good
32:06 sign that like okay this this actually
32:08 might be a bit more Universal and a step
32:10 up for all crypto ux in terms of
32:12 consumer stuff so that that that's one
32:14 thing the again going back to this idea
32:17 of the the constraints we specifically
32:21 started where you so so one of the
32:24 things we allow is when you click a
32:25 button the developer gets a a a request
32:28 sent or you know uh HTTP request sent to
32:31 their server and that's signed so it's
32:34 cryptographically signed but it's not
32:35 signed with the ethereum key so every
32:37 forecaster user has an ethereum key
32:38 under the hood we have a separate key um
32:41 it's called an eddsa key for for those
32:43 paying attention at home but um that
32:46 actually can't do anything on a
32:47 blockchain and technically you can do
32:48 something on salana and you can use it
32:50 for like account abstraction wallets
32:52 that are coming in the future but not
32:54 the ecdsa keyy that that powers an
32:56 ethereum address like your your kind of
32:57 like you know metam Mas or rainbow right
33:00 despite that what happened was every de
33:03 and I actually put a meme I don't know
33:04 if you guys it's the it's the Patrick
33:06 SpongeBob Meme where he's talking to the
33:08 kind of villain and and you know the
33:11 villain's trying to convince him of one
33:12 thing and then Patrick just keeps giving
33:13 the same answer and so the way I I kind
33:14 of set that up is we thought people
33:16 would use frames to kind of do these
33:18 lightweight things like oh well let's
33:19 just go back to the Facebook app erab
33:21 platform personality quizzes uh polls
33:23 like things that are very offchain and
33:25 easy and you can get set up
33:27 and within 24 hours someone was like
33:30 well I'm just going to have this sign
33:31 something that will end up minting
33:33 something through a relayer on bass and
33:35 then of course Jesse poock as you know
33:37 good friend jumped in and started saying
33:39 great like Bas wants to be the home for
33:40 any frame that you want to put on chain
33:42 so we quickly went from this is a
33:44 terrible pun but on frame to on chain
33:47 and these developers they don't care
33:50 that we told them that it wasn't
33:51 expressive to be on chain just like
33:53 water they figured out a way to get
33:55 there and so you know and then I think
33:57 Wilson cusac uh from coinbase he wrote
34:00 up something where it's like oh verify a
34:02 frame signature with solidity like just
34:04 like the the amount of creativity that
34:07 people brought to saying oh well you
34:09 told me that this is not supposed to go
34:11 on chain but I'm still going to go do it
34:12 and I think the the most uh kind of you
34:15 know seared in my brain example is a
34:18 team of folks um three three developers
34:21 worked on a a project on Sunday and then
34:22 they launched I think Monday or Tuesday
34:24 they did a Girl Scout cookie checkout in
34:28 a frame so four buttons and an image and
34:31 they were able to make like a like a
34:32 shopping cart um uh Toby luki it's at
34:35 Shopify actually followed me this week
34:37 and reached out and and and and you know
34:40 commended that team like in terms of
34:41 like wow that was really cool and so
34:44 this is not the ideal UI to do a
34:45 shopping cart yet people figured out how
34:47 to do it and then what was cool is you
34:49 you actually got redirected at the end
34:51 and and by the way they were this one of
34:52 the people was selling Girl Scout
34:54 cookies for I think his niece or
34:55 something so she's now probably like the
34:57 top Girl Scout cookie seller in the
34:59 entire country but um at the end it just
35:02 kicked you out to coinbase Commerce and
35:03 then you just you could just do the the
35:05 shopping so again even though you
35:07 couldn't directly do the onchain
35:08 transaction people were creative enough
35:10 to to actually make it happen so what I
35:13 would say is the the two things that
35:14 we're going to add from the expressivity
35:16 standpoint in the in the near uh near
35:18 term one is that text input so it's a
35:20 completely new version of uh you think
35:23 of it as like IO right like okay we had
35:24 buttons and now now we have like free
35:26 text and then the second is um we are
35:28 going to figure out a way to safely do
35:30 onchain transactions um I think you guys
35:33 have been around crypto Twitter a long
35:34 enough to know that like the moment you
35:36 make links very easy to do onchain
35:37 transactions a lot of Nefarious stuff
35:39 that can happen right yep but this is
35:41 where actually the forecaster social
35:42 graph actually comes into
35:44 play so we can actually take those links
35:48 and probably the minimum version of star
35:49 is we'll just put a huge warning and it
35:51 just say hey don't click on this if you
35:52 don't trust it but over the kind of next
35:55 couple of weeks we can actually layer in
35:57 an identity layer on top of that and
35:59 actually say oh this is a link from
36:02 someone you follow like they they
36:04 actually made it and and it because it's
36:06 cryptographically signed in a key that's
36:07 offchain it's probably not you know
36:09 hacked like the SEC got hacked with the
36:11 Bitcoin ETF so you start to layer in all
36:13 these Primitives that for a while kind
36:15 of weren't doing very much for us if
36:17 anything they were making us move a lot
36:18 slower but now starts to enable these
36:21 like kind of like really powerful use
36:22 cases where it's like you you could
36:24 legitimately say this is a verified link
36:26 now whether or not that that was good
36:27 code I I can't verify that but you at
36:30 least know that it wasn't a wallet
36:31 drainer from a hacked account and and so
36:33 now you start to create an environment
36:35 where if I want to do something on chain
36:38 I actually want to be on foraster
36:40 because I'm browsing the feed and I'm
36:41 actually getting some level of like okay
36:44 I don't have to worry and actually one
36:46 one um really tough example last year
36:48 was my Twitter account got hacked okay
36:51 no did not have a phone number attached
36:53 to the account strong password I used
36:55 top uh you know Google off for it yeah
36:59 Twitter still hasn't given me an answer
37:00 on what happened I my my hypothesis is
37:03 that it was an inside you know someone
37:04 and support but so they waited till I
37:06 was asleep Pacific Coast time they
37:08 tweeted out a wall drainer link the wise
37:10 Keys nft project and uh I have a I have
37:14 a good friend who lost over $100,000 I
37:16 feel really really bad um because they
37:19 it and they were like I should have been
37:20 paying attention it was kind of scammy
37:22 looking but you know I I assumed because
37:24 it came from your account and I know you
37:26 have good security it it was it was fine
37:29 and so that that hopefully all goes away
37:32 in a world where everything is
37:34 cryptographically signed um and
37:36 obviously the SEC you know tweet example
37:38 is another you know kind of disaster
37:40 scenario in terms of just less wall
37:42 drainer but more just like an
37:43 embarrassment but in a world where
37:45 everything has public private keys
37:46 underneath the hood and and you have
37:48 reasonable you know self- custody uh
37:51 security then you actually get into a
37:52 world where crypto links don't feel so
37:54 scary and you're actually more likely as
37:56 a consumer to actually want to interact
37:57 with stuff that you
37:59 discover I I am so here for it and I
38:02 actually think that like while this
38:03 seems like maybe small to some listeners
38:05 today what we're looking at is a a new
38:07 primitive and a new type of platform
38:09 that could like I I honest when I say
38:11 this legitimately help onboard the world
38:13 to to crypto and it's it's starting to
38:16 come together in farcaster in really
38:17 interesting ways just at the same time
38:19 in which Twitter is the most dangerous
38:22 to be a crypto person yeah that is true
38:24 as well and I think for bankless
38:26 listeners who who still haven't um
38:28 gotten this in their head of of what's
38:30 going on here but what what Dan is
38:32 describing is these things called frames
38:34 basically turns a post or a tweet or an
38:36 forecaster uh it's called a cast into a
38:40 program into kind of a mini app and this
38:42 is a permissionless mini app that any
38:45 developer can deploy and uh without
38:48 anyone's permission it's kind of like a
38:50 court internet primitive in that way and
38:53 so what we've seen the last week is like
38:55 hundreds of these frames being uh
38:57 developed and I wouldn't be surprised by
39:00 the time you listen to this if we if we
39:01 had thousands and there's all sorts of
39:03 creativity uh kind of Unleashed and so
39:05 that's what's going on here and I I I
39:08 can't help but think about um what we're
39:11 actually doing here big picture and you
39:13 were talking about some of the the
39:14 investors and foraster who are here for
39:16 kind of the the early days of web 2 and
39:18 uh and social media what we're actually
39:21 doing here it seems to me Dan is we are
39:23 going back to about 2 7 2008 and we're
39:29 taking we're retracing our steps as the
39:32 internet as a community and we're taking
39:34 a path that we didn't take at that point
39:37 in time so the path that social media
39:39 took and the internet took and the fact
39:42 that we have now kind of five tech
39:44 companies that dominate the world was a
39:47 path of closed walled Gardens and an
39:50 ad-based Revenue model so they wanted to
39:54 trap all of the users inside side of the
39:57 four walls they're their Walled Garden
39:59 essentially so that they could mine
40:01 their eyeballs and sell more ads Twitter
40:04 didn't have to take this path Facebook
40:06 didn't have to take this path but it was
40:08 more profitable at the time to take this
40:10 path we didn't have a own verb as Chris
40:13 Dixon likes to say to kind of monetize
40:16 the other path and so what it seems to
40:18 me crypto is doing what forecaster is
40:20 doing is it's going back to like 2007
40:24 2008 when this web 2 thing just started
40:26 kicking off and it's going oh we're not
40:28 going to take the ad-based path we're
40:30 going to take this new ownership type of
40:32 path that's how we're going to monetize
40:34 things and in that path we can keep
40:36 everything open we don't need to trap
40:38 everybody inside of our ecosystem we can
40:41 keep it permissionless so that like devs
40:43 can build on this and not get rugged and
40:46 that to me is probably the most profound
40:49 piece of this and why like you can
40:50 probably hear the excitement in my voice
40:53 in what's happening like this is just a
40:54 kernel okay but like I think this could
40:56 get uh entirely massive do you have any
40:58 Reflections on that is is is that right
41:01 in your eyes do you think we're going
41:02 back to like the the mid 2000s here oh
41:05 man I I like you got me all excited just
41:07 hearing that I so one that the original
41:10 name for far cter when Veron and I
41:11 started working on it was RSS plus so
41:13 I've been thinking about some version of
41:15 this idea for for a decade plus um I I I
41:19 feel like I'm in in this kind of like
41:20 weird verun and I are roughly the same
41:22 age and so I I'm a weird like kind of
41:24 like Millennial in the sense that I was
41:26 in college when Facebook I not when it
41:29 first came out but but two years in and
41:31 when they were they they launched the
41:33 feed while I was in college they
41:34 launched the App Store while I was in
41:35 college like I I actually built on the
41:37 Twitter API I built this app called
41:39 straw pole um on so so I lived through
41:43 that era in a in an era where I was just
41:45 so I I thought that was the future we
41:47 were headed in and and I cite this a lot
41:50 Paul Graham wrote an essay in 2009 and
41:53 if you go to his website it's just SL
41:55 twitter.htm'
41:56 it's really short fits in like a
41:58 screenshot and he talks about how
41:59 Twitter is this quirky company that it's
42:01 they they invented a new Internet
42:03 Protocol and that doesn't happen very
42:04 often and you know the way he was
42:06 defining it but somehow it ended up in a
42:07 company whereas every other protocol
42:09 HTTP SMTP for email all of that ended up
42:13 kind of being these Open Standards and
42:15 and so I was obsessed with this idea
42:17 while I was even working at coinbase I
42:19 actually tweeted like a kind of rough
42:21 outline of the idea for forecaster in
42:22 2018 I still still have the tweet I can
42:24 uh send it to you guys but but basically
42:27 I've been obsessed with this I I was a
42:29 huge Google Reader user for RSS and and
42:32 and just like I'm a huge info war and
42:34 so the the Twitter out competing RSS
42:38 like makes sense they built a really
42:40 slick centralized experience that just
42:41 has better user Discovery better
42:43 performance you know centralized
42:45 companies are going to be better than
42:46 Indie companies most of the time right
42:49 and so I think what what was really
42:52 disappointing though if I if I kind of
42:54 look back on the history of Twitter and
42:55 easy for me like you know in the time
42:56 you just kind of make the decisions is
42:58 Twitter had an opportunity roughly
43:00 around 2014 to kind of Veer in the we
43:03 are not going to be Facebook because by
43:04 that time Facebook had killed its app
43:06 platform they were already public they
43:07 were starting to get mobile and Twitter
43:09 could have been the open version right
43:11 and it would have been like hey we'll
43:12 monetize off of developers we're never
43:14 going to be as good as Facebook because
43:16 Facebook is isn't a class of its own
43:18 Facebook makes $200 per user per year in
43:21 the United States okay when was the last
43:23 time you paid for anything on Facebook
43:24 that's how good they are at mon ation
43:26 that's why they have a trillion dollar
43:27 market cap and that's why Twitter has
43:29 always been kind of lagging behind is
43:31 they just never had that scale and level
43:33 of monetization and so there's a version
43:35 of the world where Twitter leaned into
43:37 the API and said we are the world's kind
43:40 of like protocol yes it's controlled by
43:43 a company but we're going to we're going
43:45 to monetize at a certain rate and I
43:47 think actually people would have been
43:48 probably fine with that and there's
43:49 actually a lot of benefits if if you
43:51 somehow a benevolent kind of company
43:52 that monetizes like there's a lot of
43:54 complexity that comes with the
43:55 decentralization
43:56 but we didn't have that happen right so
43:58 we we had this kind of increasing
43:59 centralization on these social networks
44:01 and so one of the motivations that I got
44:04 excited about working on this idea
44:06 censorship resistance that's actually I
44:07 think a very important thing from a
44:09 freedom of speech standpoint but the
44:10 thing I was so excited about is if we
44:13 could just figure out how to get enough
44:15 people to use this maybe we can get a
44:18 flywheel of developers building stuff
44:20 and I think just having people hack the
44:23 like random thing that kind of looks
44:25 like a Chris Dixon looks like a toy and
44:27 that ends up being a bigger thing that
44:29 doesn't happen on the App Store now like
44:31 you have to get like a duns number to
44:33 launch a mobile app it's like you have
44:34 to have like basically a background
44:35 check for so so all of this stuff is is
44:39 just so much friction and I always think
44:41 of like what stripe you know completely
44:43 unrelated but but the core Insight is
44:45 the cisin realized that developers
44:47 wanted to take payments this is kind of
44:48 like pre- crypto on the internet and the
44:51 the the status quo at that point was
44:54 send a fact to someone at Wells Faro go
44:56 and have some guy with a headset call
44:57 you and try to sell you on payment
44:59 processing and they're like okay well
45:01 we're just going to make this like
45:01 really slick thing sign up and then just
45:03 immediately get payments and get on your
45:04 way and that mentality is like what I
45:07 want to really drive is the beauty of
45:09 frames is it's so fast like you can use
45:11 vercel which is this developer company
45:13 to like spin this up uh Veron was
45:15 actually able to do one with repet
45:18 yesterday and just use their built-in Ai
45:20 and have a frame up and running in 10
45:21 minutes and so that's that's the error
45:23 that I want to bring back is just like
45:25 really really fast iteration and
45:27 prototyping with also the benefit that
45:30 you know that happens in crypto that's
45:32 actually one of the reasons I I still
45:34 stuck around in crypto I was kind of
45:35 burned out in crypto after I left
45:36 coinbase and then I realized this is the
45:38 only place that developers are still
45:39 really tinkering everything else is
45:41 super professionalized even AI actually
45:43 think like yes there's a ton of interest
45:44 there but it's it's run by big companies
45:47 crypto is not run by big companies
45:49 coinbase is the biggest company in
45:50 crypto like that's it every other
45:51 company is is is basically small or or
45:54 you know independent Developers and so
45:56 that spirit is the thing that I I wake
45:59 up every day and get excited about is
46:00 like can we get to a world where feels
46:02 much more like 2007 in 2008 in terms of
46:05 experimentation and I think that the
46:07 core difference uh is can't be evil just
46:11 just like Google said don't be evil like
46:13 can't be evil build the credibly neutral
46:15 decentralized system that people can
46:17 look at the code people can download
46:19 Open Source Hub software or permission
46:21 list to sign up on OPI mainnet like they
46:23 don't have to trust me and so that is I
46:26 think if if we can do that I don't think
46:28 we'll ever be as big as like meta from a
46:30 like you know whether we're a company or
46:32 a protocol but maybe like at the
46:34 protocol level because I think if you
46:35 can actually create an ecosystem where a
46:37 lot of people can win um then then you
46:41 know things things can get pretty big
46:43 and I think that the other thing is like
46:45 part of that centralization effort was
46:48 actually I think very much driven by the
46:50 zero interest rate environment of the
46:52 the 2010s this kind of like growth at
46:54 all cost for the company
46:56 you know I it's kind of crazy how many
46:58 people Elon fired at Twitter and Twitter
46:59 basically still works like everyone was
47:01 saying it was going to get go away like
47:04 forecaster um you know Grant we're not
47:06 at that scale we have 12 people we are
47:08 not hiring any more people like the goal
47:10 is to just stay really focused on
47:12 delivering this great experience and yes
47:14 we will have to hire some more people
47:16 but like my view is I I want to
47:18 Instagram got to 27 million users with
47:20 13 employees in 2012 I can promise you
47:24 we we we're not even close to million
47:26 users so like we we and and we have 10
47:28 12 years plus developer productivity and
47:30 AI so so I actually really believe in
47:32 this world where we can have um many
47:35 thriving new apps services companies
47:38 open source projects on top of this
47:39 decentralized protocol that collectively
47:42 can compete with the big guys but maybe
47:44 we never just never see another like you
47:46 know trillion dollar centralized social
47:48 media company because what this is doing
47:50 is it's actually leveling the playing
47:51 field and saying like Okay the scale
47:53 comes from the protocol not the app
47:55 thinking that um frames unlocks like the
47:57 next step function growth in farcaster
48:01 like maybe maybe it's not the killer app
48:03 that takes farcaster all the way to meta
48:05 sizee maybe there is no killer app it's
48:07 just a series of Min killer apps and
48:10 Frames is the first of of many hopefully
48:12 uh I I want to talk about like the
48:13 distribution curve that will uh emerge
48:17 with frames where like some frames are
48:18 going to be built and then probably
48:20 going to be used more than others right
48:21 like call you you were talking about
48:23 that um poll in Twitter tweets and
48:26 that's actually like the only expressive
48:28 tweet form that there is you can tweet
48:30 or you can make a poll um and so
48:32 therefore the poll is the most
48:33 expressive the most used app on a on a
48:36 tweet and I would imagine as frames get
48:38 more developed and iterated some frames
48:39 are just more useful some frames are
48:41 recycled some frames become just like
48:43 highly used and then there are some like
48:45 longtail of frames which are just make
48:47 maybe more proprietary more unique to
48:49 the Builder or the company that that
48:51 developed them how do you think about
48:53 how this will unfold we've seen like a
48:56 massive growth in usage of forecaster
48:59 just in the last week since frames have
49:00 launched so now we have this iteration
49:02 cycle growing but like how do you think
49:04 um how do you think like the
49:05 distribution or frequency of frames uh
49:08 goes forward in the next like weeks and
49:10 months yeah look we're still very much
49:13 figuring it out I think if I could
49:14 critique frames from what what it's not
49:16 good for developers is the experience is
49:19 this delightful experience you run
49:20 across in the feed you're you're low
49:22 friction you're willing to use it but
49:23 you're not building a durable ongoing
49:25 Rel relationship with a with a a user
49:27 right and if you think about the kind of
49:29 there's a variety of different types of
49:30 developers but I think that the
49:32 developers that get most excited about
49:33 distribution tend to be ones that want
49:34 to go build a business or you know kind
49:36 of think about being a venture-backed
49:37 company and what matters to them is
49:41 retained doubt in the same way that I
49:43 focus on the doubt daily active users I
49:45 not use jargon so basically the number
49:47 of people who use your app every day um
49:49 you may hear like monthly active users
49:51 or weekly active users um meta talks
49:54 about time spend and daily active users
49:57 and so my view is they're the best in
49:58 the world at that like that's the bar
50:00 you should measure your app and so if if
50:02 you're thinking about like hey I want to
50:03 build a business I want I want to be
50:05 able to go raise
50:06 money the the traction chart you want to
50:08 be able to show is is is the kind of
50:10 like trailing 7-Day average of people
50:12 using your app right and so right now
50:15 frames are very ephemeral you see them
50:16 in the feed there's no really easy way
50:18 to go get them again ongoing
50:20 relationship is it actually adding any
50:23 additional functionality to your
50:24 day-to-day in the app
50:26 and so one area and and I don't think
50:27 we've kind of figured this out is well
50:30 Chrome extensions I think are a great
50:31 example of this it's like you find
50:32 something useful that you kind of want
50:33 to use on a regular basis um on on kind
50:37 of web they work really well like you
50:39 install metamask or one password on
50:41 Chrome and and it works you know you
50:42 block but basically extensions have
50:45 never existed on mobile Apple's Safari
50:47 extensions are meh Don wallet I would
50:50 actually give them credit they've really
50:51 pushed the the limits of of like that
50:53 platform like and I don't think anybody
50:55 else is really done that but it's just
50:57 clunky and people think of apps on
50:59 mobile right like they they know how to
51:01 install an app they probably never
51:02 installed a Chrome extension um pwas are
51:05 another potential way that this goes and
51:07 and shout out to friend Tech I think
51:08 that they like really showcased like how
51:10 how you can do that well I think they
51:12 are a little bit more clunky than apps
51:13 and it's nothing on the engineers on the
51:15 people building a pwa it's actually just
51:17 Apple kind of is is they're doing it as
51:20 like a fig Leaf to say hey look we offer
51:22 an alternative when the reality is
51:24 like Progressive web app like yes sorry
51:27 sorry how you describe that please so so
51:29 basically the idea is you can build a mo
51:30 a website and then make it feel like an
51:33 app on the phone without actually having
51:34 to go to the App Store to install it
51:36 right but because everyone is having to
51:38 think about Apple has a ton of rules to
51:41 be in the app store right and that's
51:43 been in the news recently but but
51:44 ultimately as a developer you're like
51:45 okay I I have to make compromises
51:48 especially with crypto in the App Store
51:51 but if you think about distribution as
51:53 an app developer you want to be the the
51:55 app store because that's really easy
51:56 consumers understand how to do it you
51:58 can get updates and all these other nice
51:59 things so trying to marry the two I
52:02 think one thing we could do with frames
52:04 is Could you actually in a in a kind of
52:06 easy to use way in a secure way extend
52:09 the functionality of warp cast in a way
52:11 that you could just simple thing you
52:13 could add another button to the bottom
52:15 of the row of every cast so now yes
52:18 you're using warp cast but maybe the the
52:21 kind of like default button that you
52:22 click to you know send a like or
52:24 something is doing another action maybe
52:26 it's sending an onchain tip to someone
52:28 and that that's like tip link or one of
52:30 these services and so I I think figuring
52:32 out a way to offer ongoing relationship
52:35 and a durable relationship with users
52:37 through frames is if if we can actually
52:40 nail that and and and figure that out
52:42 that that I think is actually a big step
52:43 function because now all of a sudden the
52:45 developer says okay don't just use
52:47 frames as kind of like a like a launch
52:49 strategy go to market to try to convince
52:50 people to use your app it's like no I
52:52 actually could build a business as long
52:54 as I'm a button on someone's you know UI
52:57 and there's a lot of complexity to Think
52:58 Through on that and um I don't know if
53:01 you guys grew up in the era of like
53:02 Windows uh Internet Explorer toolbars
53:05 like everyone wanted to add a toolbar
53:07 and they just like would stack and there
53:08 a bunch of memes and it's like you'd go
53:09 to your grandma's house and you'd have
53:10 to like uninstall all of them but like I
53:13 think that you just have to balance the
53:15 the kind of Simplicity and elegance of
53:16 it with providing a really powerful
53:18 primitive to a developer so I think
53:21 that's just one area I think what I
53:24 ultimately know is developers want to
53:26 build businesses that is means that they
53:29 have users and the single best thing
53:31 that we can do or two things is one
53:33 continue to grow the number of users on
53:35 the forecaster protocol because every
53:36 user on the forecaster protocol is now
53:38 kind of like if you think about like the
53:40 the addressable Market that they are now
53:42 a potential user of your app in a very
53:44 easy way with frames and then two it's
53:46 how do we make it easier for the best
53:48 developers the ones that actually build
53:50 great experiences for for consumers to
53:52 have an ongoing relationship with those
53:54 consumers because that that actually
53:56 sets them up for success and so so I
53:58 don't have answers there other than that
53:59 that's how we're approaching it and
54:01 that's the fly wheel too in effect isn't
54:03 it Dan because more users will come as
54:06 like the frames increase in in utility
54:09 and then more users come so more dap
54:12 like app developers develop frames and
54:14 you kind of get that that flywheel in in
54:16 full effect um so I I look I think that
54:19 frames is one of the most interesting
54:21 things I've seen in a long time it feels
54:23 very much to me like sort of the
54:25 mid-2000s early discovery of um of kind
54:28 of web 2 basically and the birth of that
54:30 and that Paul Graham post I was just
54:31 looking at it why Twitter is a a big
54:33 deal and he said the reason is is
54:35 because it's a new messaging protocol
54:37 where you don't specify their receipts
54:39 new Protocols are rare like tcpip SMTP
54:42 HTTP Twitter never pursued that journey
54:46 and here we're we're kind of going back
54:48 to it and that's what's so exciting here
54:50 I I want to ask the question though so U
54:52 moving on from from frames for for for a
54:54 second so we talked about um can't be
54:57 evil rather than don't be evil and we
54:59 used this phrase for the crypto natives
55:01 earlier in the audience sufficiently
55:03 decentralized so C can you define what
55:06 that means practically in a foraster so
55:10 um I think as a forecaster user or as
55:12 like a you know former recovering
55:14 Twitter user let's say I still I still
55:15 tweet from time to time I um want to
55:19 Port have the ability to Port my
55:21 username and my social graph somewhere
55:24 else if I want to like that seems to me
55:26 fundamental and then we were talking
55:28 about the um inability for forecaster to
55:32 rug frame developers let's say or any
55:34 developers right so I mean very famously
55:37 Twitter's restricted API access many
55:39 times in the past rugged entire company
55:40 soed Facebook right I mean this is like
55:43 we have a full history of this and so
55:46 how how is it such that you can't rug
55:48 and what are the crypto components of
55:52 this entire platform because I think
55:54 forecaster keeps it crypto profile light
55:57 but um very intentional in terms of what
55:59 it's trying to do on Chain versus what
56:01 it's trying to do in centralized servers
56:04 so can you kind of describe that
56:05 landscape for us yeah so that's all
56:09 accurate and and I think the way to
56:10 think about it is there are three layers
56:12 to the cake so the first is the and
56:14 let's actually start from the consumer
56:15 experience so you download an app
56:17 warcast is is the most popular app it's
56:19 basically the only mobile client
56:20 although people are starting to build
56:21 other mobile clients which is exciting
56:23 85% of usage of casters on mobile right
56:26 so one one piece of advice I always give
56:27 to crypto Builders uh if you're building
56:29 anything consumer if if the use case is
56:32 to use this on the couch 85% of the
56:35 usage of of couch time is on phone not
56:37 on a computer so don't build the app
56:40 that you think because you sit on a
56:41 computer on the couch consumers sit on
56:43 the couch and they they go like this so
56:46 uh mobile is really important and that's
56:49 that's how private you know the vast
56:50 majority of people interacting with
56:51 forecaster interact through a mobile app
56:54 the mobile app is a centralized thing so
56:56 the the best example here is like Gmail
56:58 and email like email is a protocol Gmail
57:02 is a is a private service you could use
57:03 Yahoo you could use something different
57:05 in this Cas Gmail is the client yes the
57:08 the client the app um the the kind of
57:11 app warcast we run that in AWS like we
57:15 we have an app store account on Google
57:16 and apple and you know kind of manage
57:18 all that stuff we we build this app and
57:20 then the next layer down as where it
57:22 starts to get interesting is we connect
57:24 into
57:25 the foraster protocol which at this
57:27 point is actually
57:28 decentralized um and that is a layer of
57:32 of servers that kind of all peer
57:34 together so you can almost think of as
57:35 like sort of like bit torrent not not
57:36 quite so it's not a blockchain but it's
57:38 kind of like a a group of servers that
57:40 that get to eventual consensus on what's
57:43 the state of the network right like what
57:45 what casts come from you know what
57:46 people what do their profiles look like
57:48 who's liking what cast like the system
57:50 kind of works pretty well and that's
57:53 totally open source anyone can go
57:54 download and and run a hub the hubs have
57:56 varied up until like some at one point
57:58 we had 700 people running a hub they're
58:00 not that expensive to run um and most
58:02 people just run them in the cloud but
58:03 you could run them on a kind of like
58:04 home home computer and each Hub has a
58:07 full copy of the network okay so that's
58:09 similar to an ethereum node right it's
58:10 not a blockchain but but it takes that
58:12 property of as a developer I can just
58:14 spin up a hub and I don't have to rely
58:16 on anyone else to get anything like you
58:18 be like okay I want all the the you know
58:21 cast from from Ryan like boom like you
58:23 can immediately get that information you
58:25 don't have to pay anyone else don't have
58:26 to ask for
58:27 permission the last part of the system
58:30 and this is the only part of the system
58:31 that's actually on a blockchain is but
58:34 but critically important it's the actual
58:36 like identity and and the identity is
58:39 just a simple number it's an integer so
58:41 I am the third user on forecaster
58:43 forecaster account Veron plus me so I'm
58:45 FID forecaster identity three and the
58:48 whole system just works off of that that
58:49 number so each of you have an FID
58:52 anytime you're doing something the way
58:54 that that system works is when you go to
58:56 write a message that leaves the app it
58:59 goes into that kind of bit torrent Hub
59:01 Network the hub goes okay this is coming
59:04 from
59:05 fd3 uh please tell me does does the
59:08 signature the cryptographic signature
59:10 match the thing that's on the blockchain
59:12 if yes great now I'm going to distribute
59:13 it if no this is a it's a spoofed it's
59:16 it's a fake cast and that so that that's
59:18 a system so so the beauty of that system
59:21 is the only thing that costs money or
59:24 they're kind of two things when you sign
59:26 up you create that initial mapping you
59:27 get that little FID and then anytime you
59:30 you kind of want to make an adjustment
59:33 maybe you you roll your your cold
59:34 storage or your hot wallet and you want
59:36 a new address that controls that ID but
59:38 then other than that it's uh I always
59:40 like to say it's like an all you can eat
59:41 buffet it's like once you pay like you
59:43 can do as much as you want on the
59:44 forecaster network but and what's really
59:47 nice about that is there's no cost right
59:49 so I think that the challenge of like
59:51 just imagining the the usage of social
59:53 media that even if you had a small cost
59:56 it creates a mental thing of people
59:57 being like Oh I don't know if I want to
59:58 press this button it's like a little bit
01:00:01 you you want to encourage as many people
01:00:02 as possible to to use the app you want
01:00:04 to people to smash the like button that
01:00:06 is actually how you drive the the kind
01:00:07 of growth of the social network and so
01:00:10 in in in building this system we we like
01:00:13 to think of as like a hybrid blockchain
01:00:15 system we we we just tried to take a
01:00:17 pragmatic approach verun and I both
01:00:18 worked at coinbase um I wrote a post
01:00:21 actually when I left uh for biologies uh
01:00:23 moment in the Sun Nakamoto publication
01:00:26 called coin bases prag pragmatism and
01:00:29 and the idea that like we always
01:00:30 Approach at coin bases like what's the
01:00:31 best user experience while still holding
01:00:34 true to the values of crypto and you
01:00:37 guys have been in crypto long enough
01:00:39 it's like coinbase has taken a lot of
01:00:40 arrows Co 6 basically no errors at this
01:00:42 point relative to where they used to and
01:00:44 people now appreciate it's like oh yes
01:00:46 this this company actually like
01:00:47 practiced what's they preaches yes it's
01:00:49 a big company they sometimes have to
01:00:50 make compromises but they've been a net
01:00:51 positive for the ecosystem I think for
01:00:53 us it's we don't need to be maximally on
01:00:56 chain like that doesn't actually make
01:00:57 the product any better if anything it
01:00:59 makes it worse and and more expensive
01:01:01 and so for us it's it's the sufficient
01:01:03 decentralization mentality is this
01:01:04 pragmatic mentality of saying do the the
01:01:07 one thing that matters to make sure that
01:01:10 that is Sovereign uh you know censorship
01:01:12 resistant no one can go muck with that
01:01:15 and then take pragmatic approaches
01:01:16 everywhere else and and be transparent
01:01:18 and open and how you approach it and I
01:01:20 think here here here's an example if we
01:01:22 had a maximally centralized attitude the
01:01:26 warp cast client would be open source
01:01:28 and the expectation is everyone would
01:01:29 run their own Hub because you shouldn't
01:01:30 trust any Hub that would be run by
01:01:32 someone else and so you get into a place
01:01:34 where um you you've actually achieved
01:01:37 even more decentralization but you don't
01:01:39 have any usage and so for us this this
01:01:41 mentality of sufficient decentralization
01:01:43 is live up to something where you can
01:01:46 look you know vitalic in the face and
01:01:48 say yes this is a credibly neutral
01:01:50 decentralized network but we are not
01:01:51 going any more decentralized than we
01:01:53 need to for the average user because the
01:01:56 the user experience doesn't improve here
01:01:59 and and the developers actually have
01:02:00 sufficient decentralization to have a
01:02:02 great experience and so that's where
01:02:03 you're kind of trying to meet rather
01:02:05 than being purely ideological and saying
01:02:08 oh I can make this system even more
01:02:10 decentralized there's a time and place
01:02:11 for that you know potential systems that
01:02:14 are designed for people who really need
01:02:16 that but I think the reality is any
01:02:19 version of the world where the social
01:02:20 media that we use is built on kind of a
01:02:23 permissionless open system where you
01:02:25 can't rug people with apis which is the
01:02:27 case of farcaster I think it's a
01:02:29 significant improvement over where we
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01:05:14 bankless okay so me as a forecaster user
01:05:17 when I create my forecaster like
01:05:19 identity and this forecaster ID right
01:05:22 that's where the the point at which my
01:05:25 uh crypto address my uh public private
01:05:27 key gets associated with a forecaster ID
01:05:31 and that associ social security number
01:05:33 yeah basically and that Association is
01:05:35 the thing that is um like uh an ENT an
01:05:39 entry is created on chain for that yeah
01:05:41 and with that once we have that entry on
01:05:43 chain that is the piece that is the
01:05:45 property registration that needs to be
01:05:48 completely permissionless and
01:05:49 decentralized and by the way that that's
01:05:51 some gas fee for for creating it like
01:05:53 I'm wondering where where's that record
01:05:54 stored are are you using a layer two of
01:05:56 some we're using opet um to store that
01:05:59 opet yeah and you can think of that that
01:06:01 as like a big phone book and it's just
01:06:03 two columns it's it's it's you know FID
01:06:06 and then the ethereum address that
01:06:07 controls it everything else through
01:06:09 trans property so once we have that
01:06:12 we've created sort of a a property right
01:06:14 where um forecaster doesn't own my
01:06:17 account and the social graph that I'm
01:06:18 building that's associated with that
01:06:20 account I own my account and what is
01:06:22 that secured by well it's secured by op
01:06:24 mainnet which is settled and secured on
01:06:26 top of ethereum so effectively I own the
01:06:30 property rather than far the farcaster
01:06:32 protocol rather than Dan Romero rather
01:06:34 than the developers who are working on
01:06:36 the warcast client right yep so the
01:06:39 worst thing I can do to you is I I run
01:06:41 warcast right or you know the company
01:06:44 warcast which is the biggest client and
01:06:47 let's say you started posting something
01:06:49 illegal there's certain types of you
01:06:51 know I'm a big Free Speech believer like
01:06:53 you know I live in the US big believer
01:06:54 in the Constitution but there are types
01:06:56 of speech that are not protected by the
01:06:57 Constitution and some types of speech
01:06:59 that are actually kind of illegal okay
01:07:01 you start doing that on foraster I can't
01:07:04 actually affect your account on the
01:07:06 protocol like we've designed it so that
01:07:08 we cannot like there is no way can't be
01:07:10 evil at that level I can though and and
01:07:13 warcast is a US Delaware based company I
01:07:16 I have to follow the laws in the US so I
01:07:19 will label your account or that that
01:07:22 content specifically
01:07:24 uh I'm not going to render it I'm you
01:07:26 know not your you're not gonna render
01:07:28 that in the warcast client just like
01:07:30 Gmail can decide what spam on Gmail and
01:07:32 Yahoo can decide what spam on Yahoo mail
01:07:35 warcast can decide what content it's
01:07:37 choosing to not show the core difference
01:07:39 though is let's say we get um really
01:07:42 Agro on what we decide to show versus
01:07:44 not we think we know better than anybody
01:07:47 else um people will start to move
01:07:50 they'll move to another client because
01:07:52 warcast is is built on forecasters so
01:07:54 your identity can just be booted up in
01:07:56 the same way that if you don't like uh
01:07:58 what wallet X in ethereum is doing you
01:08:00 just take your pneumonic and put it in
01:08:02 wallet Y and the account can actually
01:08:04 live in both wallets at the same time
01:08:05 exact same property in in farcaster so
01:08:09 but what what does actually what
01:08:10 actually transfers over because I think
01:08:11 a very important thing in the property
01:08:13 is actually the accounts that I
01:08:16 affiliate with who I follow on Twitter
01:08:19 does that transfer over to Alternative
01:08:21 clients is it how does that transfer
01:08:23 over those those that mapping the social
01:08:26 graph lives outside of warcast any
01:08:28 client it lives at that that that kind
01:08:30 of the the bit torent Hub like layer The
01:08:33 foraster Hub layer that's where that
01:08:36 which yeah where is that data storage so
01:08:38 like my account and my ownership my
01:08:41 mapping to my keys to my forecaster
01:08:42 account lives on the op stack and when I
01:08:45 have a social graph where does that data
01:08:47 live and how do I control my access to
01:08:49 that data so you can R anyone can run a
01:08:51 hub we have I think it was this morning
01:08:53 200 50 unique hubs around the world um
01:08:57 that that that's it you could run your
01:08:59 own Hub and then and then it would work
01:09:01 warp cast can't censor anything at the
01:09:03 Hub level okay second layer the cake
01:09:07 okay so we have the we have the op sack
01:09:08 main net which I control my keys then
01:09:10 there for my forecaster account and then
01:09:12 there's another layer on top of that
01:09:13 called forecaster hubs which control
01:09:16 social graphs and that is an open
01:09:17 permissionless node system that uh that
01:09:21 maintains the relationships between
01:09:22 forecaster accounts
01:09:24 in more of a web web two uh
01:09:26 non-blockchain way maybe not web two way
01:09:28 but um a more sensorship resist bit
01:09:30 torrent Network more
01:09:33 okay yeah and and so I think um the best
01:09:37 way to think about that is if you want
01:09:39 to get data onto that that middle layer
01:09:42 you have to have the right signature
01:09:44 from the account that controls it on the
01:09:45 blockchain and that's that's how those
01:09:47 systems are designed so you can't spoof
01:09:49 any information no one can remove your
01:09:51 information those hubs just say
01:09:52 whatever's on the blockchain that's the
01:09:54 canonical representation of someone
01:09:56 who's allowed to post into this network
01:09:58 under that ID and so then the whole
01:10:00 system works warp cast we run five hubs
01:10:02 of the
01:10:04 250 we can't touch any data on those
01:10:06 hubs like we can't like remove it like
01:10:08 the only thing we can do is prevent it
01:10:10 from being rendered on our app one last
01:10:13 um decentralization resource Cost
01:10:14 question uh okay so when we last talked
01:10:17 a year ago a forecaster was not on op
01:10:18 mainnet and then launched on op main net
01:10:21 uh so I think that means like the whole
01:10:24 like the some of the training reels are
01:10:25 are gone from the system very cool uh
01:10:28 now also there is a real cost to
01:10:31 creating a user account only one cost
01:10:33 per account which is also very cool uh
01:10:36 who pays for that is it is it much is it
01:10:39 a lot is it something that needs to be
01:10:41 worked on and and what are the the you
01:10:44 said the overhead costs are not much
01:10:45 ongoing because it's one per account
01:10:46 which is great but still it's a cost
01:10:48 what what's the future of this cost
01:10:50 what's the future of this overhead cost
01:10:51 to the farcaster or the warcaster
01:10:53 foraster business yeah so let let's
01:10:56 separate to each of those layers so at
01:10:57 the at the blockchain level right now we
01:11:00 we have a kind of a gate fee to get on
01:11:02 because if if it was free you would just
01:11:04 have people put spam right like you
01:11:06 would just register a whole bunch of
01:11:07 these things for gas and then you would
01:11:09 you would load up you know each user has
01:11:12 a maximum amount of data that they can
01:11:13 put on hubs which is very high relative
01:11:15 to what the average user uses and so you
01:11:17 would just fill these things up and
01:11:19 everyone's computer Who Running one of
01:11:20 these hubs would just be full of junk
01:11:22 and then there wouldn't be any space for
01:11:23 anything else the performance would be
01:11:25 bad it doesn't work so we started when
01:11:27 we went to permissionless in November so
01:11:29 anyone could just interact with the
01:11:30 contract you didn't have to use warcast
01:11:31 we were charging $12 in in op mayet eth
01:11:35 to create an account to create an
01:11:37 account which obviously no social media
01:11:39 basically charges you money upfront that
01:11:41 that's not so we have since brought that
01:11:43 down step by step just as we've monitor
01:11:46 how much spam it's now $3 um so the idea
01:11:50 is we are trying to find the pedo
01:11:52 optimal uh part of cost with Spam so
01:11:56 spam has increased like we we you know
01:11:58 kind of have a way of labeling it at the
01:12:00 warp cast the app level just in the same
01:12:01 way that anyone can send an email even
01:12:03 if it's spam on the email protocol but
01:12:05 obviously Gmail is going to do a good
01:12:07 job of filtering the spam out so warcast
01:12:09 has that kind of same role but we also
01:12:11 have to think about if the if the the
01:12:14 amount of data required to run a hub
01:12:17 gets too high you will have less
01:12:19 decentralization this is this is the
01:12:21 fundamental thing that ethereum deals
01:12:22 with right um it's why Bitcoin did not
01:12:24 increase their block size like if you
01:12:26 really want to optimize your
01:12:27 decentralization you need to make it as
01:12:28 easy as possible to run our view is if
01:12:32 this system works I actually think
01:12:34 somewhere between 10 full hubs and 100
01:12:38 is the right order of magnitude of
01:12:40 decentralization because if you have
01:12:42 enough companies then then they can kind
01:12:43 of like compete against each other and
01:12:45 then no one has like one control um i'
01:12:48 probably say closer to 100 would make me
01:12:50 happy but I think our system actually
01:12:52 should not H overly focus on
01:12:54 decentralization because what we should
01:12:55 be focusing on is trying to get users
01:12:57 right because if you put too much
01:12:58 friction sign up then people just stay
01:13:00 on the centralized web too so I think we
01:13:02 are trying to figure that out and it's
01:13:04 iterative and it's um we're trying to be
01:13:06 pragmatic around it and then what what
01:13:09 happens is that the once you've paid for
01:13:12 that you as a user don't have to pay
01:13:14 anything to Hubs you can basically use
01:13:16 any of these other apps in the ecosystem
01:13:18 for
01:13:19 free um and then if you wanted to be
01:13:22 kind of hardcore and say hey I don't
01:13:24 trust anyone else I want to I want to
01:13:25 host my own client and my own Hub and
01:13:28 then just directly interact kind of with
01:13:29 the blockchain like that um you're
01:13:31 you're able to do that and so I would
01:13:33 say that's probably on the order of I
01:13:35 don't know $100 a month or something if
01:13:37 you if you really wanted to go do that I
01:13:38 I don't think that that is appealing for
01:13:40 most people but for a business sets it's
01:13:41 actually relatively inexpensive if you
01:13:43 wanted to kind of like have a forecaster
01:13:44 app and so we think that the
01:13:46 architecture that we have today can
01:13:47 scale to about 10 million users we we're
01:13:50 at 85,000 total signups so we have a
01:13:53 ways to go and at that point I think
01:13:56 because the Hub system so the onchain
01:13:58 system scales basically forever but the
01:14:01 the Hub system actually hits a point
01:14:05 where it um would need to be sharded
01:14:08 right and so sharding is hard on
01:14:10 ethereum
01:14:11 because you don't want to have double
01:14:14 spends that's not an issue in in in the
01:14:16 hub world right like you can actually
01:14:18 post the same thing twice so so it's an
01:14:20 eventually consistent system it's not
01:14:21 it's not a like a a blockchain and so
01:14:24 our view is once once we hit that scale
01:14:27 so if we if we do get there um we will
01:14:29 have scaling solutions that are
01:14:30 available to us that frankly just much
01:14:32 harder to do with blockchains so I I I
01:14:34 genuinely believe it it won't be easy
01:14:36 and it's not like we've solved it now is
01:14:38 I I I think we can get a system that can
01:14:39 get into hundreds of millions of users
01:14:40 if not a billion plus users um over the
01:14:43 next you know three to five years I get
01:14:45 it okay so that's interesting where the
01:14:47 costs are the C the costs aren't
01:14:49 actually like sort of block space or gas
01:14:51 fees on uh op main net right that's a
01:14:53 you're just registering kind of the the
01:14:55 account there mainly the costs are put
01:14:58 in place for civil resistance and so
01:15:00 that you don't get bought attacked and
01:15:01 that kind of thing and then there's also
01:15:03 this ongoing at the second layer of the
01:15:05 cake the the forecaster Hub piece this
01:15:08 sort of um you know State State
01:15:10 Management State growth thing that we
01:15:11 see in in um in blockchains in general
01:15:14 which is like if you let the state get
01:15:15 too large and there's no cost associated
01:15:18 with the state then the nodes become
01:15:20 harder and harder to run so uh that that
01:15:22 makes a lot of sense to me I I want to
01:15:24 like zoom out uh and we're going to get
01:15:26 to lightning round questions in just a
01:15:28 second but one last question before we
01:15:30 do and these are from some farcaster
01:15:31 users but one last question so going
01:15:33 back to the fork in the road that we are
01:15:37 um kind of resuming we're going back to
01:15:39 the late um 2000s Okay and like we're
01:15:42 pursuing this open decentralized
01:15:45 permissionless model instead um talk to
01:15:49 me about the monetization the economics
01:15:52 behind that because by now we are very
01:15:53 familiar with getting our eyeballs sold
01:15:55 we're very familiar with um massive
01:15:58 social networks that are basically
01:16:00 getting $200 a year apparently for all
01:16:03 of the data that that we produce on top
01:16:05 of it um what's to prevent forecaster
01:16:08 from doing the same thing right I think
01:16:11 it was Chris Dixon earlier this week uh
01:16:13 reim upon us that these small
01:16:16 architecture changes like you own your
01:16:18 own prop property and can exit the
01:16:21 system at any point in time
01:16:23 these can make have fundamental
01:16:26 Downstream consequences in terms of the
01:16:28 the business model and the economics but
01:16:30 like I I guess I want you to kind of
01:16:32 paint that picture what's to prevent you
01:16:34 from just starting to sell all of um
01:16:37 like the warp cast users data and
01:16:40 monetizing that with an ad-based model
01:16:42 like what what is the reason you
01:16:43 wouldn't do this how do we know that a
01:16:45 forecaster you know maybe it's not as
01:16:48 evil now but like maybe you could be
01:16:50 evil or maybe the economics in sent you
01:16:52 to be evil what's different this time
01:16:55 yeah so I think about this a lot um so
01:16:58 let's just go through a couple of things
01:16:59 one as long as I'm around I'm telling
01:17:01 you I we are not doing anything uh
01:17:03 scummy because I I I don't want to be
01:17:05 scummy so that that is the first line is
01:17:08 like there's a there's a level of trust
01:17:09 of like who's running this thing and I
01:17:11 think verun and I are very aligned on
01:17:13 that um but you know things can change
01:17:16 right so don't trust what I say okay so
01:17:18 second second thing there's a difference
01:17:20 between farcaster the protocol and Warp
01:17:23 the app right so warcast the app that's
01:17:25 a that's a business right like it's no
01:17:27 different than Gmail um we will have to
01:17:30 figure out how to monetize it at some
01:17:32 point we actually have some early
01:17:33 efforts and this is actually I'll get to
01:17:35 it in a second but will there be a day
01:17:37 that warcast has ads um I'm pretty sure
01:17:39 yes it's it's a model that a lot of
01:17:42 consumers I don't I don't like but you
01:17:45 know as soon as X offered the premium
01:17:46 subscription where I could get them out
01:17:47 of my feed I paid like I I just I I much
01:17:49 prefer my attention to not be looking at
01:17:51 ads um but a lot of consumers they
01:17:54 they're like I'm fine with ads it's like
01:17:56 people who watch Network TV right like
01:17:57 so so I actually don't want to judge
01:17:59 people who who say hey I'm actually
01:18:01 willing to get a free experience for ads
01:18:04 like that that that's a personal choice
01:18:06 I think you there are ways that you can
01:18:07 do it and and not be kind of like you
01:18:09 know surveillance capitalism me but
01:18:13 here's the important thing and actually
01:18:14 I think the best analogy to just think
01:18:15 about is is coinbase in its business of
01:18:18 of kind of being a crypto brokerage if
01:18:20 coinbase if if you have an coinbase
01:18:22 account if coinbase starts doing a bunch
01:18:24 of stuff that you don't like you know
01:18:27 you can move your eth your Bitcoin your
01:18:30 salana whatever to Kraken to a self-
01:18:34 custody wallet to whatever additional
01:18:36 competitor
01:18:38 right that does not exist in in web 2
01:18:41 like it just doesn't like there is no
01:18:43 exit while still having interop that
01:18:46 foraster that works right now so if
01:18:48 warcast starts doing stuff that you
01:18:50 don't like right Dan verer longer there
01:18:54 uh the kind of like you know minion
01:18:55 middle management takes over and starts
01:18:57 to just run the web to Playbook the the
01:19:00 Discerning consumers will will just
01:19:01 leave they they will literally go to a
01:19:02 different client and then they will have
01:19:04 the option of either running a client
01:19:05 that they control 100% for the hardcore
01:19:08 people or I would imagine the market is
01:19:10 going to go okay great we'll just offer
01:19:12 a client that you pay us I don't know $9
01:19:15 a month $10 a month you don't see any
01:19:16 ads and it's just like we respect your
01:19:18 your you know your time and we're we're
01:19:22 targeted towards people and we're
01:19:23 offering a premium experience that
01:19:25 cannot exist today I cannot go do that
01:19:27 on Twitter or Instagram because their
01:19:29 business model is no no no like we we
01:19:31 want you to be an our client because we
01:19:32 want to show you as many
01:19:34 ads by the architecture of farcaster you
01:19:37 you can just move right you don't have
01:19:39 to worry even about oh does my account
01:19:42 get migrated you can run two clients at
01:19:44 the same time so maybe warcast has a
01:19:46 feature that you really like in the same
01:19:48 way that you can use metamask and you
01:19:49 can use rainbow and you can use coinbase
01:19:51 wallet with your ethereum address and
01:19:53 you can use it on different platforms
01:19:55 and different use cases you can do the
01:19:57 exact same thing with forecaster because
01:19:58 we we design the system to have the
01:20:00 identity live outside of the company and
01:20:02 I actually think it's a better
01:20:03 Improvement on even something like email
01:20:05 because if you think about it if you
01:20:06 have a Gmail address you have a lot of
01:20:08 history with that Gmail address it's
01:20:09 it's used in a lot of different Services
01:20:11 if you want to go change your email to a
01:20:13 different provider or be self-hosted
01:20:15 it's a lot of work that so every time
01:20:17 you sign up for a new service with an
01:20:18 email you get locked in because Gmail
01:20:20 controls the the domain and that doesn't
01:20:23 exist within the forecaster architecture
01:20:24 it's much more like ethereum where your
01:20:26 ethereum account your wallet lives in
01:20:29 ethereum not the actual wallet same
01:20:31 thing with a forecaster account it's
01:20:33 you're you're just providing an
01:20:34 interface through those cryptographic
01:20:36 keys that are underneath to interact
01:20:39 with this forecaster protocol and so I I
01:20:41 really believe in markets and I believe
01:20:43 that if we design the system right
01:20:45 that's the part that's can't be evil is
01:20:47 the core architecture of the protocol
01:20:49 enables you to
01:20:51 seamlessly go use another client test it
01:20:54 out while still keeping yourself at warp
01:20:55 cast if if you you know and and then if
01:20:57 you decide hey I think these guys are
01:20:58 doing the wrong thing just you're
01:21:00 immediately boot it up you no downtime
01:21:03 it's not even like an email newsletter
01:21:04 where you have to wait for the domains
01:21:05 to to transfer it's just like no you you
01:21:07 could actually use simultaneously Dan
01:21:09 it's been just really cool to see a lot
01:21:10 of the traction show up in in the
01:21:12 forecaster Universe uh I know even
01:21:14 frames aren't really a crypto thing
01:21:16 they're not crypto at all but they kind
01:21:18 of embody crypto ethos I think and the
01:21:20 openness and the complexity at the
01:21:22 margins uh sense of the of the
01:21:24 application so it's just very very
01:21:26 exciting to see um Ryan put out this
01:21:28 tweet a couple days ago after we
01:21:29 scheduled this podcast asking wait wait
01:21:32 did you say tweet David cast my friend a
01:21:35 cast pardon me pardon me like Xerox and
01:21:39 Kleenex
01:21:40 like I I'll take it as long as you're is
01:21:43 you're doing your tweeting on
01:21:47 on farter so yeah you can you can tweet
01:21:50 just do it on farcaster on farc yeah so
01:21:53 Ryan put out the tweet on farcaster
01:21:54 asking for some Community questions uh
01:21:56 you ready do you have time for a quick
01:21:57 lightning round yeah let's do it all
01:21:59 right so this is from Leon qac uh who's
01:22:02 actually the second qack to be invoked
01:22:03 on this podcast uh what parts of
01:22:06 farcaster are still centralized is
01:22:08 farcaster unrug today and is that still
01:22:11 the goal in the
01:22:12 future so we have two features so so
01:22:15 there's the technical answer where I
01:22:17 could say yes it's all decentralized at
01:22:18 the core and and nothing but the I
01:22:20 always start with the Practical
01:22:22 experience from the consumer what is
01:22:23 centralized so if you use warcast which
01:22:25 most people do that's that's our client
01:22:27 we have two components on warcast that
01:22:30 um are popular that have not been pushed
01:22:32 into the protocol and I don't think we
01:22:34 are going to do it at least for the next
01:22:36 six months like we want to actually
01:22:37 really understand the shape of the
01:22:38 feature one downside of doing everything
01:22:40 at the protocol level is you move really
01:22:42 really slow I'm not going to pick on any
01:22:43 blockchains but we all know the the rate
01:22:45 of innovation of blockchains that are
01:22:47 more decentralized is a lot more hurting
01:22:49 cats right so I think for us we want to
01:22:51 optimize on getting the feature right
01:22:53 and keeping that at a centralized level
01:22:55 before pushing it down to the protocol
01:22:57 we also like to think that we spent
01:22:58 three years we delivered on hubs the
01:23:00 permissionless signups all that works
01:23:02 and like that's unrug so I think we've
01:23:04 we've earned some trust with our
01:23:05 community but those two features are one
01:23:08 uh our DM system direct cast that just
01:23:10 lives on warcast and so there are you
01:23:13 know other protocols that offer that
01:23:14 there's potential to push it into the
01:23:16 farcaster protocol as a spec make it
01:23:18 interoperable with other ones we're just
01:23:19 not going to deal with that in until six
01:23:21 months like we just added like Emoji
01:23:23 reactions if I had to have like tried to
01:23:24 coordinate that across like five clients
01:23:26 and it just move way slower so direct
01:23:28 cast the DM system not not um uh
01:23:32 decentralized and then channels we've
01:23:34 added some additional functionality
01:23:36 basically mod functionality which I
01:23:38 think is important for a subreddit so
01:23:40 the the content for channels the the
01:23:42 kind of topics is in the kind of
01:23:44 decentralized system the the roles of
01:23:46 mod are are centralized right now if I'm
01:23:48 talking to you a year from now like it
01:23:50 seems like we do I I am going assure you
01:23:52 that those Channel stuff will all be
01:23:54 decentralized in the protocol question
01:23:56 from Johnny Mack this is nonlinear doeth
01:23:59 uh what are some great opportunities for
01:24:02 other clients
01:24:03 Dan this is a joke because I usually
01:24:06 tell people when they request features
01:24:07 on uh forecaster to to us I say you know
01:24:11 we're focused on X great opportunity for
01:24:13 another client so mean um I think got
01:24:17 that says great o great opportunity for
01:24:18 another client uh but I look I think the
01:24:22 obvious answer is look at what works
01:24:24 really well in web 2 and as we develop
01:24:26 out that level of content so there is no
01:24:28 image oriented client there is no video
01:24:30 oriented client so those are the two
01:24:32 obvious ones for me um and a little
01:24:34 Alpha although this will launch tomorrow
01:24:36 so you know whatever but we are
01:24:38 launching video tomorrow which we've
01:24:40 held
01:24:41 off we we we basically didn't think
01:24:44 people would go and create it but now
01:24:45 we're at a stage where we actually have
01:24:46 enough people banging down the door to
01:24:48 want put a video in we'll do it so I
01:24:50 would love see videosos on farc are we
01:24:52 talking like 90 like epod I mean this
01:24:55 episode is starting with five minutes 4K
01:24:57 and then we'll work our way up nice
01:25:00 where are where is that stored Cloud
01:25:02 flare like you you you as the client
01:25:05 choose where the the data is stored
01:25:07 right so just like I choose where my
01:25:10 website is hosted like that that is the
01:25:12 key thing is you don't have to go use a
01:25:14 decentralized technology there but the
01:25:16 beauty of the system is if someone wants
01:25:18 to go build an amazing video streaming
01:25:20 platform live p is a great example of
01:25:22 one or uh you know on on ipfs they're
01:25:26 free to do it and if it actually offers
01:25:27 a better experience people are going to
01:25:28 choose that system yeah you could just
01:25:29 change the pointers it's like a DNS
01:25:31 right exactly sure sure exactly all
01:25:34 right next one what kind of frames would
01:25:36 you like to see built on forecaster this
01:25:38 one comes from
01:25:39 me I think that the I I I have a if you
01:25:43 search on farcaster frame idea I have a
01:25:45 bunch where I've just been throwing them
01:25:46 out I I think two two areas or one um
01:25:50 games I think could be pretty powerful
01:25:52 because obviously everyone is on a
01:25:54 social graph and like can actually do
01:25:56 kind of interaction across other people
01:25:58 like one last night I was thinking of is
01:26:00 and definitely not Pokemon just call
01:26:02 them pocket monsters that resemble
01:26:04 Pokemon because I guess the Pokemon
01:26:05 company likes to sue people like Po
01:26:06 world and things like that but um just
01:26:09 just make it so you can like have a
01:26:10 little critter and have them battle
01:26:12 other people and again maybe it doesn't
01:26:14 appeal to everyone but like that kind of
01:26:16 expressivity around like okay frames
01:26:18 today have been to use a christic and
01:26:20 thing pretty single player make the
01:26:22 player like that that I think is is
01:26:25 you're on a social graph and like people
01:26:26 are being social so so make them
01:26:29 social question from uh Tim Riley
01:26:32 putting yourself back into your shoes
01:26:34 when you first started farcaster what
01:26:36 would surprise past Dan the most about
01:26:39 what has actually happened so
01:26:42 far I think it was pretty naive um I I
01:26:45 thought I was coming into
01:26:47 farcaster with this like great Network
01:26:49 in Silicon Valley and crypto people who
01:26:52 were all at the time this is kind of pre
01:26:54 pre- the current regime at Twitter
01:26:56 complaining about Twitter and I thought
01:26:58 that I would actually be able to kind of
01:26:59 like pull them in maybe a little little
01:27:01 too optimistic there and I think going
01:27:03 back to this point of like the state of
01:27:04 preference we need an alternative
01:27:06 decentralization is important and then
01:27:08 the reveal preference is um I have an
01:27:11 audience that I worked really hard for
01:27:13 the last 10 years building on Twitter
01:27:14 like I'm not going to go switch over and
01:27:16 so I think that was a that was a mistake
01:27:19 should have had a different initial go
01:27:20 to market um we didn't focus on mobile
01:27:24 enough in the beginning and like this is
01:27:26 now I just like you know the Steve
01:27:28 Balmer developers developers developers
01:27:30 I also tell to anyone building in crypto
01:27:32 mobile mobile mobile like that like yes
01:27:34 it's hard apple is really a pain with
01:27:36 with anything crypto but that's where
01:27:38 consumers spend time so meet the
01:27:40 consumer where they are not not like
01:27:42 what gives you the the easiest time in
01:27:44 terms of the experience that you want to
01:27:46 build and I and I think just like
01:27:47 pushing us to be creative faster on
01:27:49 mobile I I think would it just save time
01:27:51 right like maybe maybe this would have
01:27:52 been happening a year ago with all the
01:27:54 stuff versus three years
01:27:57 in Dan as we close this out this is a
01:28:00 been a fantastic conversation and you've
01:28:02 certainly built a lot in in uh the last
01:28:04 year so as we close this out I have kind
01:28:06 of like one final question on my mind um
01:28:08 what I saw in farcaster is particularly
01:28:12 The Innovation that's being developed
01:28:13 lately on frames is a way to onboard the
01:28:16 masses to crypto and I'm wondering if
01:28:18 you're seeing that as well and um like
01:28:22 the thing for me is forecaster treats
01:28:25 crypto as a first class Citizen and
01:28:28 anybody can build crypto use cases and
01:28:30 you have this nucleus of the I don't
01:28:32 know how many users are on foraster now
01:28:34 we're in the hundreds of thousands
01:28:36 presumably we're not into the millions
01:28:38 but you've got this nucleus of crypto
01:28:40 Builders who are who are here and doing
01:28:42 things how do you think forecaster can
01:28:46 on board the Next Generation in crypto
01:28:48 how do you think that plays out yeah so
01:28:51 um and this is actually relevant I think
01:28:53 for the bankless audience although they
01:28:54 probably are crypto native but um we
01:28:56 actually just launched free signups on
01:28:57 warcast so remember I said that the
01:28:59 protocol charges a fee so warcast is
01:29:01 actually paying the protocol for every
01:29:03 sign up but we we're slowly expanding
01:29:05 this program again in the mind of we
01:29:07 don't want to be overwhelmed with
01:29:08 spammers um we're just trying to take
01:29:11 the Playbook just just go use any of the
01:29:13 top social media apps in the App Store
01:29:15 and and it's is not from a surveillance
01:29:17 capitalism point of view it's just a
01:29:18 these these these apps are so big and
01:29:20 scaled they know what Works to onboard
01:29:22 people right every step in an onboarding
01:29:24 funnel is a potential place to lose
01:29:26 interest or or get frustrated and so if
01:29:28 you go through the warp cast signup
01:29:30 process you don't need any crypto we
01:29:32 generate a wallet behind the scenes um
01:29:35 we actually now offer the ability to
01:29:37 just link a phone number not for a like
01:29:40 oh like we want to send you text
01:29:41 messages it's actually that if you're
01:29:43 from a country and we just expanded it
01:29:45 to another 10 countries today we're
01:29:47 giving anyone in those 20 countries a
01:29:49 free sign up so we're paying the $3 fee
01:29:52 um and we'll see how long that sustains
01:29:53 but but ultimately it's actually about
01:29:55 just like reducing friction on
01:29:57 onboarding in a way that isn't crypto
01:30:00 forward but crypto powered right so the
01:30:02 idea is like when when you actually on
01:30:04 board we are registering something on
01:30:05 chain on your behalf um but we don't
01:30:08 require you to be like oh connect your
01:30:09 metam mask oh I don't even know what
01:30:10 metam mask is what you buy some eth
01:30:13 Bridge it to op mainnet like none of
01:30:14 that happens like we we just assume even
01:30:16 for the and this has actually been a a a
01:30:19 a push back point is crypto natives go
01:30:21 wait what I I I want just want to
01:30:22 onboard in with crypto and um we're like
01:30:24 well we have a limited amount of time
01:30:26 and resources just onboard with internet
01:30:27 purchase Apple doesn't provide us any of
01:30:29 your pii so it's not doxing you and
01:30:33 that's how we do it because it's just
01:30:34 like we have one onboarding flow and we
01:30:35 want to simplify as much as possible
01:30:38 because if if we can then we have an
01:30:40 opportunity when when the gardening
01:30:43 Channel takes off or the F1 Channel
01:30:45 takes off has nothing to do about crypto
01:30:47 and just everything about like
01:30:48 forecaster is just like a better piece
01:30:49 of social media or platform for social
01:30:51 media because of frames and all these
01:30:52 other things those users don't have to
01:30:55 know anything about crypto and then the
01:30:57 best part is once they show up they by
01:30:59 definition have an ethereum wallet and
01:31:01 then they're going to start to see
01:31:02 frames in the feed that's like mint it's
01:31:03 like what's that and you start to
01:31:05 actually get curious because you start
01:31:06 spending time in a place rather than
01:31:09 this thing where you put up a huge
01:31:10 barrier before you sign up of saying
01:31:13 well first get a coinbase account then
01:31:14 you get a wallet then you can actually
01:31:16 go use the thing it's no it should just
01:31:18 be in the app that you're using and
01:31:19 saying well okay like how can I use this
01:31:22 wait I just minted something what does
01:31:24 that even mean and then you so you kind
01:31:25 of learn and and and I think that's how
01:31:27 you do it it's it's kind of like warm
01:31:29 people up to crypto rather than throw it
01:31:31 in their face right right from the
01:31:32 beginning I love it Dan yeah it's very
01:31:34 exciting so when they on board a
01:31:36 foraster they get an ethereum wallet in
01:31:38 the back door and then they could start
01:31:40 using it without even knowing it without
01:31:42 some of the onboarding pain we've seen
01:31:43 so far in crypto Dan thank you so much
01:31:45 for joining us today really cheering uh
01:31:47 far Caster on and everything you guys
01:31:49 are doing over there thank thanks for
01:31:52 having me bankless listener a few action
01:31:54 items for you we brought Dan on a year
01:31:56 ago we'll include a link to that episode
01:31:59 in the show notes also the the Paul
01:32:01 Graham post that we talked to and then
01:32:03 finally look if you don't have a
01:32:04 foraster account this is a uh I guess
01:32:07 self Sovereign social media account like
01:32:10 you actually own it is registered
01:32:12 property that setts to the ethereum
01:32:14 blockchain then go create one we'll
01:32:15 include a link so you can go do that and
01:32:17 go follow Dan and uh follow Bank list
01:32:20 while you're at it to end with this
01:32:22 risks crypto is risky you could lose
01:32:25 what you put in but we are headed west
01:32:27 this is the frontier it's not for
01:32:28 everyone but we're glad you're with us
01:32:30 on the benget journey thanks a
01:32:35[Music]
01:32:46 lot
💫 FAQs about This YouTube Video
1. What is Farcaster and how does it relate to crypto and social media?
Farcaster is a twitter-like crypto social media app that aims to bring the cool things crypto enables to a wider audience by focusing on the power of blockchain under the hood. It introduces the concept of frames, which are programmable tweets that can perform various actions, potentially revolutionizing the use of crypto in social media.
2. What is the potential of frames in crypto social media, according to Dan Romero?
Dan Romero believes that frames could be a breakout use case for crypto this year, providing better monetization for content creators and preventing manipulation. Frames are like programmable tweets that can do anything a user can program, offering a new and exciting way to use crypto in social media.
3. How does Farcaster's frames feature work and what is its significance?
Farcaster's frames are like programmable tweets that can do anything a user can program, such as minting NFTs, checking airdrops, or buying items. This feature is seen as a potential killer app for crypto social media, as it offers a new and innovative way for content creators to engage with their audiences.
4. What are the key highlights of the introduction of frames in Farcaster?
The introduction of frames in Farcaster is a significant development, allowing users to build apps that are associated with NFTs, providing better monetization for creators. Frames also offer the power of blockchain under the hood, enabling a balance between the average user and the creator's experiences.
5. How does Farcaster plan to merge the experiences of the average user and the creator?
Farcaster aims to merge the experiences of the average user and the creator by providing an amazing consumer experience on mobile in an app, while leveraging the power of blockchain. This approach is likened to having a clean and nice feeling experience in the app, with all the blockchain capabilities happening in the background.
6. What is the essence of the Farsite project?
The Farsite project is a simple primitive that allows developers to rapidly prototype and gain distribution and validation. It meets users where they are in the feed, making it easy for them to interact without switching to a different app or platform. The next focus is on adding features to increase creativity while maintaining simplicity and constraint.
7. How are Farsite frames being adopted by other protocols outside of Farsite?
Farsite frames are being adopted by other protocols outside of Farsite, indicating that it might be a universal solution for crypto UX. Developers have showcased creativity by implementing frames for off-chain and on-chain purposes, such as creating a Girl Scout cookie checkout and linking frames with solidity.
8. What does the guest believe could unlock the next step function growth in Farsite?
The guest believes that frames in Farsite could unlock the next step function growth, where developers can build businesses as long as they are a button on someone's UI. The guest emphasizes the need to make it easier for developers to have an ongoing relationship with consumers.
9. What parts of Farcaster are still centralized, and is decentralization the goal in the future?
While some parts of Farcaster are centralized, the goal is to eventually decentralize them. For example, the DM system and mod functionality for channels are currently centralized but may be decentralized in the protocol in the future.
10. What are the great opportunities for other clients in Farcaster?
The speaker suggests that video and image-oriented clients are two obvious opportunities for other clients in Farcaster. Additionally, the launching of the video feature on Farcaster is mentioned, with the possibility of including videos in the feed and onboarding users to crypto.
11. How can Farcaster onboard the next generation in crypto?
Farcaster has launched free signups on warcast, aiming to onboard the next generation in crypto by reducing friction in the onboarding process. The ability to link a phone number for free sign up and the generation of a wallet behind the scenes are some of the strategies to simplify the onboarding process.
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