Billie Eilish & FINNEAS: HIT ME HARD AND SOFT Interview | Apple Music
Apple Music2024-05-21
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š« Short Summary
Phineas and Billie discuss their music collaboration, facing challenges like a studio flood. They reflect on the evolution of their music, incorporating old and new songs creatively. The creative process involves vulnerability and emotional introspection, leading to personal growth. Phineas takes on a more assertive role, enhancing their collaboration. They emphasize the importance of communication, patience, and teamwork in creating impactful music. Billie advocates for allowing listeners to interpret songs freely. The process involves experimentation and spontaneity, resulting in a satisfying album with creative freedom and growth. The speaker encourages embracing fear and discomfort for personal and artistic growth.
āØ Highlights
š Transcript
ā¦
Phineas and Billie discuss their collaborative music creation process.
02:17They emphasize the significance of honesty and creativity in their work.
The challenges faced during the production of their second album are recounted, including a studio flood that destroyed equipment.
Despite setbacks, they rebuilt the studio and continued working closely together.
Billie recorded vocals in a new setup, reflecting on the evolution of their music and the impact of their authentic approach.
ā¦
Discussion of Fear or Fart game creation.
05:24Game categorizes everything as either fear or fart, highlighting the idea that both can be good or terrible.
Creators reminisce about past experiences and interactions during the game creation process.
Game shared with artists and individuals in the music industry to provoke thought and awareness.
Emphasis on the quality of something not determining its categorization as fear or fart, showcasing complexity and duality of perspectives.
ā¦
Overcoming Fear and Self-Doubt in Creativity.
10:24Fear can hinder creativity and decision-making, leading to self-doubt and second-guessing.
The speaker discusses how fear impacted their approach to creating an album, causing them to question their work and abilities.
Despite initial doubts, the speaker finds comfort in their identity and the authenticity of their work, viewing the album as a true expression of themselves.
The album represents a journey of self-discovery and overcoming fear to create something genuine and personal.
ā¦
Creative Process in Making Music
11:00Music creation involved starting from scratch, free from external pressures, to foster creativity.
Songs were completed rapidly and consistently, leading to a blend of new and old tracks on the album.
The unconventional method, spearheaded by Phineas, aimed to uphold excitement and authenticity during the creative process.
The team embraced a cutthroat mentality to prevent losing passion or interest in the music, ensuring ongoing enthusiasm and commitment.
ā¦
Evolution of the song Blue.
16:11True Blue was originally created by Billie Eilish and her brother when she was 14 and he was 18.
The song was later rewritten into Born Blue for their second album.
Despite its sentimental value, True Blue was not released as it no longer aligned with their artistic vision.
ā¦
Creation of the song "Blue" from reworking two older songs.
19:02The verses of the combined song initially felt disjointed and challenging to work through.
Changes were eventually made to create a new version that seamlessly incorporated elements from the original songs.
The song features a string motif from 'The Bridge' and 'Skinny,' adding depth and continuity to the music.
"Blue" serves as a cohesive connection between the ending and beginning of the album, unifying different parts of the music.
ā¦
The songwriting process for the album involved deep emotional introspection and reflection of personal experiences and feelings.
22:15Lyrics were influenced by real-life events and emotions, resulting in a raw and authentic final product.
Collaborators faced challenges aligning their creative visions but found inspiration in personal struggles and growth.
The evolving nature of the songwriting process emphasized the importance of vulnerability and honesty in creating meaningful music.
ā¦
Phineas expresses reluctance towards making music, causing concern for collaboration with Billy.
26:13Phineas struggles with feeling uninspired and doubts his ability to relate to others through his music.
Billy reflects on the pressure of success and the expectation to constantly produce new music.
The dynamic between the two siblings shifts as Phineas takes on a more assertive role in the creative process, leading to feelings of inadequacy on Billy's part.
Despite initial challenges, Phineas' leadership ultimately allows for growth and a new perspective on their collaboration.
ā¦
Importance of Collaboration in the Creative Process
29:05Giving space for ideas to develop is crucial for a successful creative process.
Quality over quantity of ideas is emphasized, along with the value of patience and listening to others' suggestions.
The dynamic between the speaker and their partner is complementary, with the partner providing key insights.
Collaboration is essential in enhancing the final product, highlighting the benefits of open communication and teamwork.
ā¦
Importance of humor in songwriting.
32:20Utilizing metaphors and power dynamics in music to convey serious messages effectively.
Balancing vulnerability and dynamic expression in songwriting.
Incorporating humor while maintaining authenticity in music creation.
Example of humor in music with the album 'happier than ever'.
ā¦
Billie Eilish emphasizes the importance of allowing listeners to interpret songs freely without revealing every detail.
35:13She uses her song 'Lunch' to illustrate the need for embracing metaphorical aspects of music.
Eilish expresses frustration with the trend of dissecting lyrics to deduce personal details.
She advocates for a more open and imaginative approach to song interpretation.
ā¦
Creation of a unique song through improvisation and handheld mic recording.
36:54Phineas showcased his production skills while Billie displayed her improvisational talent during the song's development.
The simplicity and ambiguity of the track resonated with Billie, evoking feelings of freedom and potential enjoyment.
The experience of creating the song signaled a shift towards embracing fun and life experiences for Billie.
This marked a new phase of exploration and enjoyment for Billie, hinting at exciting possibilities in the future.
ā¦
Importance of isolating vocals and adding effects in music production.
40:10Evolution of music-making approach towards danceability.
Joy of creating longer pieces for dancing and collaboration.
Emphasis on the importance of instrumentation and performance in music creation.
Admiration for a specific pop song created, drawing comparisons to Wham and George Michael's style.
ā¦
Reflections on recording and teaching vocals.
44:18The speaker teaches his sister to comp her vocals and expresses pride in her progress.
'Wildflower' is praised for its emotional depth, with a poignant line about love standing out.
Importance of communication and connection in relationships is emphasized, despite already knowing certain things.
ā¦
Reflection on internal struggles and self-realization in music.
48:11Song emphasizes accountability and emotional understanding.
Writing process helps speaker process unresolved feelings.
Childhood memories and fevers shape perspective on past experiences.
ā¦
Overview of 'The Greatest' song
50:58The song delves into personal growth and relationship dynamics, showcasing sacrifices and compromises made for love.
It symbolizes a journey of loneliness and complexity, encapsulated within a four to five-minute timeframe.
Emphasis is placed on honesty and self-realization, leading to a pivotal moment in the album's development.
The emotional depth and storytelling ability of the song resonate with listeners on a personal level.
ā¦
Emotional and cathartic nature of a song.
53:59Impact of lyrics and the bridge on the listener.
Love for the simplicity of the lyrics and vocals.
Creation process of the song with intense verses and choruses.
Collaboration with another artist and unconventional recording approach.
ā¦
Artist discusses releasing a secret short song at the end of a project.
57:02Feeling of freedom in current life and recent collaboration after working solo for years.
Reflecting on past collaborations and newfound enjoyment in the music business.
Highlighting a fun moment discussing music videos with Billy.
Reaching out to another artist for collaboration.
ā¦
Reflections on the journey from childhood enjoyment of music to becoming a professional musician.
01:01:01Shift in perspective from lack of enjoyment to newfound passion for making music with friends.
Emphasis on the unconventional nature of music creation and the unhinged and unperfected aspects that define their work.
Desire for more freedom and spontaneity in music-making, contrasting it with the seriousness and pressure of creating something great.
ā¦
Recording process and experimentation with sound setups.
01:05:17Reamping and handheld mic techniques were utilized during the recording process.
Completion of the album brought a sense of finality and satisfaction after months of effort.
Artists intend to continue exploring new ideas and collaborating in a fun and experimental manner.
Emphasis on allowing creative freedom and growth through working with different artists to enhance skills and perspectives.
ā¦
The artist expresses pride in their album and the validation they feel from within.
01:08:10They recall feeling nervous before sharing the album but received positive feedback, including from the label head.
The artist appreciates the trust and lack of micromanagement from the label, allowing them creative freedom.
They emphasize the importance of a supportive relationship between artists and labels.
The artist highlights the unique approach taken by their label in supporting their creative vision.
ā¦
Embracing fear and discomfort in the creative process.
01:10:51Vulnerability and uncertainty are part of the growth and learning process.
Pushing through moments of doubt is essential for artistic development.
Trusting in oneself and navigating challenges are key to success in art.
Empathy is expressed for those affected by external circumstances, such as the COVID-19 pandemic.
00:01I've just got to talk about every song
00:03I'm I want to do all of it same I don't
00:05have to
00:06do I love you space for thanks man it's
00:10kind of perfect it's great give meone
00:13good mik good yeah well thank
00:16you we were brutal the whole year we
00:19were making this about like drilling
00:22deeper and what was really different was
00:25that we kind of went against our comfort
00:28zone I remember there was one night it
00:31was like raining or something and
00:32Phineas and I had like a f big fight
00:35Phineas was like I don't like doing this
00:37anymore I don't want to write music
00:39right now I remember like we just had
00:41this argument of me being like just say
00:44how you feel and let's write a song
00:46about whatever you're scared about and I
00:49think that this was like the
00:52first day really that I was able to be
00:58honest which is is crazy we've been
01:01listening to Billy ish search for
01:03honesty since day one as a young
01:05Superstar landing on the world stage in
01:07the biggest possible way and ever since
01:10then we've all been awarding and
01:11rewarding them because their music and
01:14the art they make is so honest and so
01:17creative and Brilliant but that doesn't
01:19mean there isn't road to run and the
01:21fact that we have a brand new Billy eyh
01:23album and both Phineas and Billy in
01:26phineas's studio for our longest most
01:28comprehensive conversation yet means
01:30there's so much more to say in the music
01:33and right
01:35now I feel like we traveled all over the
01:37world at various points which I've loved
01:39and long may that continue by the way
01:40let's go somewh else uh but just to come
01:43home I'm kind of like lowy no hiy been
01:47dying to come into this space and hang
01:49out with you in this in this room or a
01:50room like this it was very different
01:52last time probably not that much bigger
01:53though because this isn't huge no super
01:56small yeah do you need that I don't
01:58think we need it but I'm I like
02:00efficiency this is also like this is the
02:03basement of my house it's a room I had
02:06um and yeah you know we just filled it
02:09with tools the room we're in right now
02:12basically existed when we made Billy's
02:14second album we finished her second
02:17album almost immediately a pipe burst
02:19above this room and fully flooded the
02:22studio like completely completely
02:24destroyed repairable equipment had to be
02:27fully the equipment almost all survived
02:30just miraculously the room but the room
02:32was destroyed and had to be like aired
02:34out and hot fans on it for days so mold
02:37didn't grow crazy and it had to be
02:39completely rebuilt and um we rebuilt it
02:42pretty similarly which was a good sort
02:44of indicator that it was effective for
02:46us but I think on this album cycle the
02:48big change was there's a couch off
02:51camera right there and Billy spent the
02:55last album sitting on the couch
02:56recording vocals and Billy spent this
02:58album sitting like right here with this
03:01microphone we just were
03:03like pilots in a airplane like complete
03:06co-piloting so side by side and even a
03:09lot of times when I was working on
03:11vocals and stuff Phineas was there and I
03:13was here totally we just totally switch
03:14spots which is really sweet I did listen
03:16to the first album again the other day
03:19and uh the opening which seemed Charming
03:22back then is like now one of the
03:24greatest album openings of all time cuz
03:27it's the most it's the most honest
03:28teenage representation of a record ever
03:32and I thought maybe I'll talk to them
03:33about that through this lens just once
03:35and just say okay if you could like go
03:38back in time and walk in the room like
03:40listen through the door and be like oh
03:42my God there's young Phineas and young
03:43Billy making that record around
03:45trying to figure it out and you kick the
03:47door in what would you say to them based
03:49on what you know now I don't even know I
03:52mean do you have any idea what you would
03:54even say to us both it would be
03:57interesting to feel the energy of two
03:58people who are like very
04:00unaware of what's to come the thing that
04:03they're doing being meaningful to other
04:05people um I certainly wouldn't want to
04:09mess it up I wouldn't want to go I kind
04:11of might just hear up against the door
04:12and then walk away I would want to maybe
04:15peek in but I think that keep it
04:17vicarious yeah anything that I could say
04:20of like you know don't be so stressed
04:23out or whatever like I don't know yeah
04:25you know you can tell you could probably
04:27the closest you could get is probably
04:28tell quite whisper to each other Hold On
04:31Tight you know but you can't try to tell
04:34someone to avoid what's going to happen
04:35regardless because it's all it all adds
04:38up to this moment and it all adds up to
04:39I know do we talk about the thing the
04:42the thing the thing do we talk about it
04:44the game Z knows the game did have we
04:47played does do the cameras know I know
04:49if the cameras know the fineas and I
04:52created a game and it has you know the
04:55game yeah but share the game it's a good
04:57game it's a great it's an amazing game
05:00um this this was created about a year
05:04ago no no it was like the end of last
05:07year oh you're right it was like the
05:09fall of last year yes so this is and
05:12since then this is a game we've shared
05:14with everyone we know and in like every
05:17artist and everyone in the music
05:19industry just to haunt
05:21them it's just good to be aware so it's
05:24a game called fear or fart right okay
05:28and basically how did it how did it
05:31arise well can't give full detail but
05:35basically we we're sitting at this
05:37computer and we were the thing is like
05:39when we would go when we would get here
05:41to like work it wasn't like you know
05:43walking in and like all right you know
05:45let's get to work it was like we hang
05:47out we're we're we're buds like we're
05:50siblings we like to hang out and we
05:52don't live together anymore so now we
05:53got to catch up I know we have to catch
05:55up we have to talk whatever so we'll do
05:57whatever we need to do before we start
05:59making music music and sometimes it's
06:00like hang out upstairs eat play whatever
06:03and sometimes it's like YouTube whatever
06:05it is and we were in here and we were
06:08like looking at happier than different
06:10albums and stuff yeah and I think that
06:13we started playing like some music and I
06:17remember Phineas going like oh this is
06:20this guy liked the smell of his own
06:21farts and I was like oh so interesting
06:24like yeah for sure he does like he he
06:26really was loving loving how it was
06:28smelling and then we were going through
06:32all these albums that we know and kind
06:34of labeling them as like oh did this
06:36person like their smell own fors and
06:38they in the middle of making this and
06:40then we got to some people and I was
06:41like what about them and F goes no no no
06:43that's fear and so then we decided to we
06:47not even decided we realized that every
06:49single thing in the universe can be put
06:52in one or the other and the good the
06:54just to be really clear is fear or fart
06:57or fart here's the caveat both could be
07:00good or both are amazing or terrible yes
07:03has nothing to do with because like
07:05there's some great there's being some
07:06great thoughts you can yeah 100% there
07:08you can make a great album and know that
07:12it's great you can make it and be like
07:13I'm so awesome and it can be good and
07:17also sometimes it can get in the way and
07:18it can you know promote some like
07:20laziness whatever Fear Can super get in
07:22your own way and prevent you from taking
07:24risks so it was like when we say it it's
07:26like we really mean no offense of like
07:29it's more just like you know fear is
07:31like you know second guessing yourself
07:33and not feeling like you're totally you
07:35totally know what you're doing or you
07:37feel like it might not be it's just
07:40second guessing you know and I and then
07:41fart is the kind of like no no no all
07:43right all right all right got this when
07:44we all fall asleep fear 100% fear yeah
07:48big fear yeah it's funny cuz I I
07:50definitely smell some fart on that album
07:52no that's just farty
07:54teenagers just that's just
07:57teenagers bad guys quite smelly thought
07:59we were funny but bad guy is not real we
08:01thought we were funny it's not real but
08:03it's definitely walks like it it's
08:05 real yes but bad guy was still
08:08made out of
08:09fart it smells like fart but it is but
08:13it's made out okay good that's good
08:15that's a new BET the thing is we bring
08:17this up because we determined that
08:19happier than ever is the is the fart
08:21album of ours it is a fart album I hear
08:24fear on that
08:26record and again we there are things
08:29were're super proud of on happier than
08:31ever but I know from thinking back and
08:33thinking about the year we made that
08:34album yeah that it was two
08:36people who had just been told the nicest
08:40things imaginable and we sat around
08:42making these songs and I know from
08:44remembering it that we sat around being
08:46like we are so so good amazing and like
08:51and there are things from a production
08:53standpoint there are songs where like
08:56we'd work on something for one day and
08:58I'd be like smashed it done and I think
09:01that that's like again it's like I would
09:04tell people not to overthink stuff but I
09:06don't think that's not overthinking and
09:07I think it was a kind of a smelling
09:09right F yeah yeah just sort of feeling
09:11really full of yourself or cocky which I
09:15think was it can be fine again it's
09:18totally fine it's just that I think for
09:20that one we didn't we just didn't put
09:22that much into it push ourselves in a
09:23way that's why there's like
09:2516 that many songs well that's kind of
09:28way the fear comes in so I think fear
09:30present shows itself on that album in
09:31hindsight because I listen to this album
09:34now and I think about the person the
09:37people who are making happier and I'm
09:40like I don't know so on to something cuz
09:42it's true that that as much as happier
09:45than ever was coming from this place of
09:47like we're so good we could you know
09:49this sounds so good we are so good yeah
09:52it was also at least for me like a um
09:58not knowing at all who I was or who I
10:00was identity crisis album and what's
10:02interesting is it hit me hard and soft
10:04is almost the reverse of that where we
10:05were making it and it was like you know
10:08we were kind of like this the whole time
10:10like I don't know if I making him
10:11anything good like this might be
10:13terrible right and then now when I think
10:16about it I'm like yeah but I'm
10:18comfortable in who I am now and I feel
10:20like I know who I am now I think that
10:23this album is like the
10:26biggest uh example of or not example but
10:29I think this this is like the most me
10:31thing that I've ever made and I think
10:34that it's so purely me and not any sort
10:38of character really which was hard to do
10:41we were brutal the whole year we were
10:43making this
10:45about like drilling deeper into the
10:49essence of like who are you as a person
10:51guessing it because otherwise why do it
10:52right at the end why do it what's the
10:54most simple reason to show up again to
10:56make another album 100% I know I think
11:00what was cool also about the making of
11:01this one was that we started working on
11:05it before we were like told to and that
11:08was like that was like a conscious Finas
11:10thing like he was like hey we should
11:12like make some music before anybody is
11:15like hey you know you should probably
11:18get to it you know and I think that that
11:21made it so that we
11:22could be creative and be have not don't
11:27have not have like this like pressure
11:28and like like kind of people talking in
11:31our ears and our heads and I think that
11:34um that was really nice it's a really
11:37it's a really and I don't know if you
11:38meant it this way but it's a really
11:39shrewd kind of psychological Twist on
11:41how you approach your music because it
11:42kind of takes you back yeah to before
11:45yeah without having to talk about it
11:46without having to go man wouldn't it be
11:47great if we could just go back to when
11:49it was so easy the amount of times I've
11:51spoken to artists and they're like man
11:52sometimes I just wish go back when it
11:53was just a simple time and as soon as
11:55you say that you can't but if you unlock
11:58it in a way by saying hey we can just
11:59stop yep we just do it we just do it
12:02what we've always done is we do a song
12:06and basically finish it and move on into
12:08another song and basically finish it and
12:10do that over and over and then you know
12:12by the time an album is done there's
12:14songs that are like over a year old and
12:17then songs that are like a month old and
12:18you're like
12:19well you The Listener is going to think
12:22this is all one you know this all came
12:23out in the same was created at the same
12:26time but really it's like kind of doing
12:29and what was really different this time
12:32around which was extremely frustrating
12:34but very rewarding was that we really
12:37did not do that we we kind of went
12:40against
12:41our comfort zone and like um what we did
12:46was we would and this was like phineas's
12:48idea which I which I really am grateful
12:50that he came up with that because what
12:52we would do is we would be in here and
12:54we would come up with some idea and as
12:56soon as it would be like he'd be like
12:59all right let's do something else let's
13:00put this away and let's like work on
13:02something else and so you'd be like
13:03creating creating hit a little LOL and
13:06as soon as that that what happened he's
13:07like all right this one some room to be
13:09excited about it still I know but then
13:11it made it so that all we didn't have a
13:15full song to listen to for months that's
13:18really tricky that's a tricky decision
13:21to make yes because you have to make
13:23sure that that when at the point where
13:25you come come back together in a
13:27particular Billy that she's going to be
13:30as excited about it in that moment as
13:32she was a month ago or two months ago
13:35and not you're risking that man what if
13:37she comes back and she's like oh God I
13:39don't know that vocal doesn't feel right
13:40to me anymore or I've lost the feeling
13:42of this I think you're totally right and
13:44part of that maybe in a perverse way was
13:48like let's be that Cutthroat if she's
13:50not interested in this in 3 weeks wow
13:53then it was almost the reverse and there
13:55were a couple there wereing you bro cuz
13:58that is like that is great idea in a
14:00couple instances there were things where
14:02we'd like work on it and be very amped
14:04on the day and come back to it and go
14:06like for for the song
14:09Blue so there's a whole backstory on
14:11that song yeah which a lot of people
14:13know no this going reverse I love that
14:15where we start start at the end well I
14:16just bring it up because we we really
14:20wanted to rewrite everything but the
14:22chorus and we didn't really want to have
14:24like redo the whole song we kind of just
14:26wanted to like have the hook and like
14:27some sort of verse but we made that song
14:29when I was 14 and ocean eyes had just
14:32come out and he was just like 18 and
14:35anyway the lyrics have just kind of aged
14:37whatever we just wanted to rewrite them
14:38for lots of reasons and there was one
14:41day that we sat here and we rewrote
14:44those lyrics for like six hours straight
14:46SE we we wrote several verses and we
14:48wrote many verses and many versions of
14:51each verse and it was so tedious and
14:54hard and we did not take a break and we
14:56were like no no no we need to rewrite it
14:58like we'll get there and we eventually
15:01finished it and I was driving home and
15:03you and I were like I'm so glad we did
15:05that and I was driving home and I
15:07listened to it I was like these are like
15:08some of the worst
15:10you and that's a kind of example of not
15:13taking time with it yeah and being like
15:16no no no just just just P it you know
15:18and sometimes that can be great but
15:19sometimes it's very clear that it's like
15:21oh I need a second it's so interesting
15:23that that that song that the first half
15:25of that song is like
15:26um it's like a it's like an in crit
15:29it's like it's like all these little
15:30moments these phrases you know open up
15:32the door and
15:36likea so the verse that we ended up
15:38writing um references every single song
15:42on the album so even if you can't if
15:44it's not like super obvious it's still a
15:46reference this is before you in the
15:47album with one of the biggest downers of
15:50one of the best albums ever created such
15:51a downer end such a well can
15:55brutal let me explain it's so funny to
15:58think about I want to explain blue
16:00really quick for those that don't know
16:02basically the first kind of quarter of
16:04that song is a song that Phineas and I
16:07made when I was 14 and he was 18 called
16:11true blue and for like the first
16:13concerts we ever did like remember we
16:15did like played it it's a school night
16:16we did it school night and like tenants
16:18of the trees or some nonsense like
16:20played it at different little yeah clubs
16:23before I had really anything out I had
16:24like maybe ocean eyes out maybe maybe
16:27not even anything else yeah but we kind
16:30of just put it away and never there's a
16:32bunch of references to it in the doc on
16:35the album where like maybe we just put
16:37True Blue on we going to put it out but
16:39we never did cuz it just didn't it kind
16:41of aged out of what we wanted to be
16:43making and years and years went by and
16:48some we stopped talking about it
16:49completely we completely never brought
16:50it up and then we on the second Point
16:53well we were working on the second album
16:55and then separately pause that part on
16:57the second album we were on all the
16:59songs that are in that one plus a song
17:01called Born blue which is like a
17:03completely different thing than true
17:04blue wasn't even in the thought of it
17:06and that was a song that was like
17:08written about a very specific thing
17:10thing that we want whatever but um that
17:13was going to be on happier than ever and
17:15we kind of just like couldn't really
17:17crack it and it didn't really it was a
17:18time thing it was a crunch time thing
17:20where we were we picked 16
17:22songs and that's not we had things we
17:25loved about born but there was only like
17:27a verse like we barely made you don't
17:29have time to finish it at this point
17:30everybody let's go got the 16 album's
17:33done so we did the same thing we took it
17:34and we went like pink bye and never
17:37thought of it again and then in
17:402022 I
17:42remember like doing my laundry or
17:44something alone and I don't know I was
17:47like like on Tik Tok or something and
17:49suddenly true blue has been just like
17:52leaked can I just ask you how you
17:54reacted in that moment in the laundry if
17:55you could take us to that exact moment
17:57you see I just was like I was like
17:59this is like I don't like the way that
18:02you know it's like I don't know it's
18:04hard to explain like it's an unfinished
18:07thing that I never wanted to come out
18:10whatever I'm not complaining whatever
18:11cuz it was kind of cool after a second I
18:13was like I had my initial like oh God
18:15they stole my again and
18:16then I was like whatever it's kind of
18:18cool whatever and then but you started
18:21to appreciate it this is the other thing
18:23then I started to appreciate it and then
18:24I was like true blue true blue I haven't
18:26listened to that in so long so I go on
18:27YouTube and I'm like Billy is true blue
18:29and I find all the rips of it I just
18:31couldn't stop listening to this song I
18:34didn't even have a version I didn't even
18:35have the original version and I I don't
18:39know I just was like dude I I remember
18:41hitting ph up and I was like the song is
18:43actually like really got something and I
18:47I see it now like I didn't see it for
18:49many years and now I see it and so we
18:52when we were working we kind of came in
18:53here and we were um we just tried to
18:56rework it and it took a second um the
18:58verses never felt right again the verses
19:00never felt right and we kind of just
19:02never we couldn't really crack it and
19:05then we were just doing it one day and
19:08then finia started changing the chords
19:10and it turned I started just singing
19:13blue and then we kind of had this like
19:17realization like oh you know what would
19:19be cool we took both of these old songs
19:23that resurrected completely different
19:24parts of our lives and resurrected them
19:27and made them into one song called blue
19:29and rewrote the verse and then wrote the
19:32rest of blue of born blue born blue is
19:35the second half of that song where it
19:36slows down and it gets that's that's the
19:38downer that's right that's the downer
19:40that's the downer and then we tied both
19:42of those together and added the motif
19:44the string Motif that and the string
19:47Motif if you haven't noticed is the
19:50Melody from The Bridge of the greatest
19:52yeah which is also in skinny which
19:54starts the album so then it also ends
19:56the Alum let's not forget that blue
20:00starts
20:02whereit leaves off ends yeah we ended
20:05Bittersweet with the melody of the
20:07beginning of true blue and then it goes
20:09into it it kind of became like this is
20:11just s of pip isn't it yeah for sure I
20:14mean I've really like we had a lot of
20:17convers anbum going into this about
20:20album how satisfi I mean listen here's
20:22the deal the like your attention span is
20:26what it is it's it's not I think
20:29people throw a lot of flak at kids and
20:33society and the modern you know style of
20:36consuming anything I don't think
20:38attention spans have gotten shorter I
20:40think the things we're consuming have
20:42changed a lot you know what I mean I do
20:44yeah and so to me if we're if we're
20:47going to make a 44-minute
20:49album and expect people to have the
20:51attention span that they had in the '90s
20:53yeah or the ' 80s to the 70s let's make
20:56an album that is made with the same
20:59level of care and
21:01attention but it's kind of true like if
21:03you think about like the way that we
21:04consume television shows if it's great
21:07like if it's truly great we're going to
21:09watch it all the way through we all
21:10watch you know that nobody complains
21:14about something amazing being too long
21:18that's true you know what I mean yeah
21:19and uh what's also great about this is
21:21it is it's concise in terms of the the
21:23number of songs but these songs stretch
21:26out and live with themselves and know El
21:29beautifully in fact one of the only
21:31concise moments is the first song
21:32everything else I mean that's a very
21:34concise message right that you're saying
21:36and there's so much I love about that
21:38song I said to someone here before I
21:40don't know if you're making up with
21:42yourself or breaking up with us I think
21:43it's probably both wow wow beautiful way
21:46to put in I think it's probably both you
21:48know and I think and I think but I think
21:49it's it's it's captured the bitter
21:51sweetness of both is a bit of sweet
21:52experience of getting to know yourself
21:54again is a bit of sweet experience of
21:55saying hey everything has a season I
21:57know and it's just oh my God it's so
21:59great
22:00um you know but the old me is the real
22:04me and maybe it's still me and I think
22:06she's pretty must have been quite an
22:09impactful moment for you just realizing
22:10just seeing those words on paper or
22:12putting them on wherever they need to
22:15yeah that song
22:19was I
22:21mean that was like the First full song
22:24that we wrote for the album um and it
22:28was
22:30do you remember that song was like born
22:32out of kind of us having a weird our
22:35lives were really different and I was
22:38kind of going through something and fin
22:40like it was just we were in like a very
22:42different place out of syn really out of
22:45sync and we were working during that but
22:49we couldn't I mean we were coming up
22:51with like pieces of stuff and of course
22:53now when I look back at what we were
22:54coming up with it was great it was the
22:56chorus of lunch and
23:00but
23:02at us it was be eventually and we felt
23:06kind of like what are we doing like I
23:09don't know how we're going to do this
23:12and I remember there was one night it
23:14was like raining or something andas and
23:16I had like a fight big fight about
23:20context and subject matter was the big
23:22fight we'd been writing these fragments
23:24of stuff and I felt could not I felt and
23:28like this
23:29is I I've been proven wrong over and
23:31over but this was the Jag I was on that
23:33night was like I was
23:37like subjectwise I'm not being led into
23:41to what you're actually feeling and I
23:43think that there are real guards up
23:46often times in your life you're going
23:48through the thing that you're going to
23:49write about later mhm and that was for
23:51sure happening to Billy at that point in
23:53time where I'd be like what's this about
23:54she'd be like nothing yeah and I
23:58remember remember like we just had this
23:59argument of me being like just say how
24:02you feel and let's let's write a song
24:05about whatever you're scared about
24:07feeling well and also not to throw you
24:11under the bus but Phineas was like I
24:12don't like doing this anymore I don't
24:14want to write music right now like
24:16that's true you know and this was really
24:18scary for me at the time because as you
24:20know I used to be like hate making music
24:23don't want to make it don't like making
24:25it it's frustrating it's it's irritating
24:28I love having made it I love performing
24:30it I love you know when it's good but I
24:33really have always struggled with the
24:35process and this was when you were
24:37enjoying the process I was kind of
24:38finally enjoying the process and Phineas
24:40was like I would rather be doing
24:43anything else right now and it was very
24:45interesting cuz I saw myself in that CU
24:46I was like I have felt that way but now
24:49and you have always been the the thing
24:51that keeps the ship moving and now you
24:54feel that way and like what does that
24:56mean for us and what are we going to do
24:58and I think Phineas also had this kind
24:59of totally
25:02understandable thing just repeating in
25:04his head of like I have nothing to say
25:05how could I say anything with the life
25:07that I live that anyone could could
25:10relate to that I wouldn't sound like a
25:12huge po douche I think that and also
25:15when we're talking about being out of
25:16sync like my whole strength as a
25:19collaborator with any artist and it's
25:21always been kind of innate with Billy
25:23because we've shared so much is I do
25:25have to understand that person
25:29to be able to feel like I'm providing
25:32something it's a really valuable moment
25:33though for the two of you because on the
25:35one hand you get to actually acknowledge
25:37something which you probably needed to
25:38hear from him which is like I don't have
25:40all the answers and I'm not here to
25:41protect the process like I'm struggling
25:43with this which big for your growth too
25:45it's like well hang on I got to ask
25:46myself how much I really want to do this
25:48and can I bring him back into this in a
25:50good way the other part of it as well is
25:51that you know you are now in a situation
25:55where you get to control how much you
25:57unveil to you're ready cuz you've been
26:00so pressured to tell us your truth Billy
26:02you're successful now write another song
26:03Billy make another album Billy force
26:05feed us your emotions Billy you know and
26:07it's like you're like hang on I don't
26:08know if I'm ready from what he's telling
26:11you're telling me to actually share that
26:13yeah it's a crazy well and also I think
26:15that I think that it's really hard to
26:18see what's going on until it's over in a
26:21lot of ways and I think for me you know
26:23he was like just be honest with me tell
26:25me what's going on and I literally was
26:27like I don't even know know I don't even
26:29know how to describe I don't know what's
26:31good or bad right now like I can't tell
26:35and then it's like when you look back on
26:36it you go oh that's what was going on
26:39and that's what I was feeling um but I
26:42will say that that his kind
26:46of um fineas also like really made a big
26:49effort in the process to
26:51like let me kind of lead the way in a
26:55lot of ways and Phineas would and that
26:57was so terrifying at first because you
27:01know we've we've been making music for
27:03years and I kind of have been shy and
27:06not very quick with it and like I don't
27:09I've never felt like confident as a
27:12songwriter and he is so good that it's
27:14like hard to compete with honestly and
27:16he would sit there and kind of be quiet
27:19and play the guitar cord over and not
27:21say anything or give any ideas and I'd
27:23be like oh my go like I don't even know
27:25what I'm supposed to do going here and
27:28it pushed me to like actually do so much
27:32and so for this album this was like this
27:34was the I've this was the most I've ever
27:37written contributed and contributed and
27:40I did some production stuff even and I
27:41did all my own vocals and the reason the
27:44reason behind that for me was that
27:47her ideas had become more and more
27:51concrete she just had more they weren't
27:54good before well she' you know like it's
27:57the difference between somebody giving a
28:00really good suggestion and somebody
28:02giving like a full plan you know yeah
28:05and I think it was also a place of like
28:08there were years if I go back to the
28:09first couple years of like co-writing
28:11with anyone like I wanted to be useful
28:13so bad I wanted be to come over and feel
28:15like I I had
28:17value and I
28:20think often times and I've worked with
28:22other people like this and I always give
28:23them the same piece of advice of like if
28:25you
28:26steamroll if the best best idea is going
28:29to take 10 minutes longer shut up and
28:32let it take 10 minutes do you know what
28:34I mean like don't rattle off 30 bad
28:37ideas in 10 minutes I'm not saying that
28:39my ideas are all bad but I just mean
28:40like I really love Billy's ideas and I
28:44don't care if she is maybe going to take
28:47a couple more minutes to think about
28:49them than my idea that is or isn't good
28:52so I want to leave oxygen yeah um that's
28:55a great way of putting it and so that
28:56happened but I think it was a funny
28:58shift in our Dynamic where different
29:00where I'd be sitting there playing and
29:01bil would be like you're not even saying
29:02anything and I'd be like wait and then
29:04what would happen and it was so
29:05beautiful and skinny is the best example
29:07of this is like you wait and you wait
29:08and you wait and then Billy says
29:10something that's so great and then I
29:12know exactly how to help I know exactly
29:15where the missing thing is because we're
29:17so on the same page with it Phineas is
29:20so good at that like I'll come up with
29:22all these ideas and and these lyrics and
29:24Melodies that are tight and they're
29:26great and there's like this and this and
29:27this and this and then there's like one
29:30thing that I need I'm like I I really
29:31don't know what this is and finel would
29:33just be
29:34like what if you said this and it's like
29:37the best lyric of the whole song and
29:39actually that line that you just brought
29:41up was that moment it was like our tick
29:43we would be we've been we I knew exactly
29:45what we were both feeling and how she
29:48was feeling and it was just kind of a
29:49rhyme structure well and also like that
29:52line is the kind of thing that is for me
29:54bar is what it is it's a that song is
29:56just bars to BU to BU but like I don't
30:01know that's the kind of thing that
30:03there's some things that are really hard
30:04to say about yourself yeah I was really
30:07struggling with this weird just like I
30:11don't know everything was weird in my
30:13life and Phineas was
30:15like I was just talking about myself and
30:18talking about like who I used to be and
30:19the way I used to look and things and
30:21and phus just was like the old me is
30:25still me and maybe the real me and I
30:27think think she's pretty you know and I
30:29was like oh I do think she's pretty
30:33here's the thing about lunch right um
30:35we've all read the the interview that's
30:36in existence right now and and it's a
30:38great opening line and it and it grabs
30:39you and it's just like boom check it out
30:41it's a metaphor for me it's just it's
30:43just about taking control isn't it about
30:45your life right right right right
30:47literal but also metaphorical yeah
30:50there's a it's a lot of stuff going on
30:51in that one yeah it's stuff going on
30:53yeah I mean I remember like one of the
30:56verses um
30:59was written after like a conversation I
31:02had with a friend and they were telling
31:04me about this like just complete animal
31:08magnetism they were feeling and I was
31:11like I just was like o I'm going to
31:12pretend to be them for a second and just
31:13right I don't know there's a lot of
31:15metaphors and a lot of there's there's
31:16also some real um Power Dynamic going on
31:19there there's an exercise of actual
31:20power going on there which is really
31:22interesting to me cuz it's like hey I've
31:24played the innocent and trying to figure
31:27it all out and I've and I've tried to
31:28make myself look older than I am on the
31:30last album figure out right but on this
31:33record it's like hang on I'm going to
31:34buy you stuff and I'm going to buy the
31:36clothes and I'm going to leave them on
31:38the and by the way buyer so much stuff
31:40killed me that was so such a good line
31:42such a like it's a craving not a crush
31:45but the buy so much stuff was such a
31:46funny like it's just such a like
31:49actually a feeling right like I could oh
31:52I could buy her so much stuffff like oh
31:54my God think about all the things I
31:56could buy yeah and that line has very
31:58little to do with money and a lot to do
32:00with just like wanting to give somebody
32:02stuff the line that is like bad guy grew
32:04up and got money uhhuh is like I'll put
32:06the clothes oh yeah that's just control
32:09right right uh I'll run a shower for you
32:12leave the clothes clothes on the counter
32:14on the counter for you if I'm allow
32:17exact and then it's like oh but hang on
32:18it's all cool like it's such an it's a
32:20fascinating song thanks and it's it's
32:22one of those moments where I think it's
32:24you at your playful best playing the
32:26character that's why I bought a back guy
32:27it is the character and everyone so
32:29obsessed with the legitimacy of the
32:31lyrics but it's like hang on you're
32:32missing the point this is all I know
32:33that's kind of this is the other this is
32:35the other you know not to compare art or
32:38to bmer stuff that we're proud of but I
32:40think one of our big um goals on this
32:42record when we were looking back at
32:44everything we'd ever made was like I
32:46think if you can be funny you can be so
32:50much more serious I think if you wow I
32:53think if you are always this serious it
32:56starts to lose meaning
32:58and stop impacting you then your
33:00vulnerability is like if you're if
33:02you're only ever being vulnerable if
33:04you're not Dynamic you can't you know
33:06yeah and I think that like one of the
33:07things that I'm so y happy about in
33:09retrospect when I listen to when we all
33:11fall asleep is all this humor humor that
33:13we were trying to hit and then it's I
33:15think that happier than ever was one of
33:16the ones where we we were taking
33:17ourselves a little too seriously lot of
33:19f so lot of fart again this is the deal
33:22it's like there's stuff I'm very
33:24grateful to on that album but we we were
33:26we had no interest in trying to tell
33:27jokes this this is that thing that you
33:30know people say about like when you
33:32start to embrace cringe you're so much
33:35happier you have so much more fun but we
33:37talked a little bit about happier than
33:38ever in the last conversation it didn't
33:40make you in because we wanted to focus
33:41on the song but um I think I said some
33:43you on the lines of like that album was
33:46sacrificial in the most beautiful way it
33:48gave its life for you to continue making
33:49records I mean I said a couple months
33:51ago that happier than ever walked so
33:53that hit me hard and S that's right you
33:54know about the world that you were in
33:56when we were all in when you were making
33:59we made happier than we were like maybe
34:01we're never going to play a show again
34:03that was like where we were at making
34:05that album the whole first album was
34:07like I want Billy to run out on stage at
34:09Coachella and play bad guy like that was
34:11like the the things that we were
34:12thinking about you know and I think that
34:15happier than ever we actually made from
34:17a place of like I mean no one we haven't
34:20seen a friend in months you know and
34:23this album again was like an self-
34:24explanation and also like not to not to
34:26sort of back catalog too much I'm I'm
34:27sure several years from now we'll be
34:29looking at this album in a retrospective
34:31way and that's just the way it is but I
34:33think that I'm glad that you're pointing
34:34all that stuff out like I think lunch to
34:36me it's like yeah if you can throw some
34:39jokes in there totally cuz otherwise why
34:41would you write a song check it out you
34:42you're a kid and you write these songs
34:43some of them are really honest and
34:44vulnerable you don't know you're on the
34:45record also first song title skinny
34:47second song title lunch I didn't up on
34:50that that pretty funny that was funny
34:52when we figured that out funny okay
34:53that's good it's a l you don't know that
34:55you know you're going to be on the
34:56record and the world is going to start
34:58listening to your songs Through the
34:59context of who you actually are and then
35:00the characters in the real human being
35:02will blur into one weird perception yeah
35:04you lose all idea and if you figure that
35:06out with all the with the world watching
35:09I wonder why anyone shows up at all I
35:13really wanted the songs to not be like
35:16oh I know what that's about right you
35:18know I I think that that we live in such
35:20a world where like everyone knows
35:22everything beef right it's true everyone
35:25is aware of the beef that Happ and aware
35:28of the people that don't like each other
35:29and aware of this and that people put
35:31songs out especially in the pop world
35:34and I'm not saying there's anything
35:35wrong with it necessarily but it's just
35:38we live in a world of like you put a
35:40song somebody puts a song out and
35:41everyone's like so this is who this is
35:43about and this is the entire story of
35:46what happened and it's like doesn't even
35:48give the listener a chance to interpret
35:51it how they want to interpret it and how
35:53they naturally hear it and that I find
35:56really frustrating I don't want to hear
35:57hear a song that I'm like oh my God
36:00every single lyric I'm like oh my oh my
36:02God like this is about that person that
36:04I know exactly be gross I think you
36:06shouldn't listen to lunch and think
36:08about who Billy wants to eat for lunch
36:09you should think about who you want to
36:10eat for lunch that's the whole deal like
36:13that's but that's the whole that's a
36:15metaphor y'all that's not like that's
36:16why I said it's a metaphor but I just
36:18mean that it's like I'm I don't I don't
36:20listen to like I don't listen to a song
36:23about love and think about being in love
36:26do you know what I mean yeah I don't
36:27listen to the luckiest by Ben Folds and
36:29think about his wife I think about who
36:32I'm in love with that's the deal what
36:35you've done together as producers on
36:37this record is so exceptional when the
36:39AR comes in and I hear the op for the
36:41first time it's like damn V got the op
36:43out he the AR why am I not
36:46surprised it's the most beautiful
36:47sounding AR been of my entire life it's
36:49so perfect I know it's going to drop off
36:50a cliff and intermediately I can't wait
36:52for that moment right and it so funny it
36:54it just to me what it say that was the
36:56one of the coolest moments of the whole
36:57album when you were there when we
36:58created that yeah can you describe that
37:00cuz I know how I felt when I heard it I
37:02don't even remember the it was multiple
37:04moments because there's multiple parts
37:05and it kind of it turned into like many
37:08things but that song has no discernable
37:09structure you know apart from the open
37:11up the door at the beginning and the end
37:12everything is a yesterday I was plotting
37:15out the music video and I was like okay
37:17wait this part okay wait but then
37:19there's this part but then okay wait but
37:21then so so much song I mean it's also 5
37:24minutes long I don't remember if we had
37:26the I don't know you at all thing yet
37:28but I remember I remember very well
37:31Phineas playing around with this
37:33production and I had the handheld mic
37:35and I was like improvising they
37:37like here grab that handheld just to
37:39just to show it off yeah this is and
37:42this is the mic you record the whole
37:43album this is the mic we wrote basically
37:46the entire album on and so basically
37:47what we did we had never done this
37:48before either um I would sit here here I
37:52can pull up the sound if you're
37:53interested but this is how we wrote
37:55everything and I actually just okay so I
37:58filmed pretty much the entire making of
38:00the album on this camera and my phone I
38:03was just watching the footage back and
38:05it was so amazing to see and there's
38:07this one many videos but there's this
38:08one video where I'm sitting there like
38:11this holding this and Phineas is coming
38:14up with what is one of the coolest
38:17produced songs of ours in my opinion and
38:19he's just like making it up and he's
38:22like you know that one part and I
38:24literally go impro I'm just improvising
38:27and I watched my I had I don't even I
38:29don't have any memory of this and I just
38:30went like and
38:36that's when you told me you was serious
38:39were you serious it's like just just
38:41came right out and I had no idea and
38:43then I immediately was like open up the
38:46door can you open up the door and pH was
38:49like I left open up the door was was
38:52open up the door open up the door was a
38:54huge win was I have a video of the the
38:57the making of and it comes up a few
38:59times in the album for that reason it's
39:00it's a beautiful image because it's
39:01actually such a pure request it's such a
39:04simple request I know and it's ambiguous
39:06and I love an ambiguous line yeah in my
39:09head your childhood bedroom then you saw
39:12the world like on Fast
39:15Forward no time to have fun really just
39:18like have this award just throwing
39:20them me with these Awards right and then
39:23and then it's like when I heard that up
39:26I was like going to actually have
39:28fun like it sounded like this could be
39:31the beginning of you going out and going
39:33clubbing and having a good time and
39:34living some life and that's what I got
39:35out of that song a big part of I would
39:37say 40 you want me to turn I just wanted
39:41to yeah so this is how we recorded the
39:44this is how all the vocals of this song
39:46yeah all the vocals on to Hero were in
39:48the room with this with like the
39:51feedback from the speakers in the room
39:53so like I actually have so you actually
39:54have the if you if you separate
39:55everything the
39:57I have the is I have the isolated vocals
40:00from the song and it's basically the
40:02song cuz the speakers were just we
40:04didn't use headphones we were just kind
40:05of we didn't invent this by the
40:08way not at all but it was extremely
40:10useful so I and it's a really really
40:13really useful writing
40:15uh tool for for me especially like it's
40:19a lot easier for me to perform than you
40:22can slap like this has verb on it doing
40:24both and then you can also put like a
40:26bunch of
40:28bunch of
40:29delay I think this song also had a bunch
40:31of delay on it a bunch uh birds of a
40:34feather which was also a lot of it
40:36written on a handheld even though we
40:38ultimately re-recorded those book it was
40:39all written on a handheld um but that
40:42but you put some you put some delay on
40:46it I mean I was going out a lot on the
40:50you know over the course of making this
40:51album and it was super I'm such a dork
40:54that I never you know been invited any
40:57cool and I was really
40:59enjoying
41:01uh the music I loved through a sort of a
41:05lens of dancing to it you know I've
41:07never made music that I'm then going to
41:09go dance to ever love that the main
41:11thing we would say every time we would
41:12make anything is like can this is this
41:14danceable and you mean before we ever
41:16heard from anything from you two like
41:19oceaniz literally dance classes like lit
41:21like how is this going to be
41:23to a dance class is it are the dancers
41:26going to like this like that's all I
41:27used to think about and then for many
41:29years it kind of became more things than
41:31that and whatever and I kind of forgot
41:34that and I feel like during this I was
41:35like we need to go back to that it's
41:38great it opens up the door to a whole
41:40world and it open and it just it it I
41:42feel like hey I don't have to be afraid
41:43anymore that art just signals a whole
41:46new wide open space we're also merciless
41:49with time we're you know if a song
41:51that's 3 and 1/2 minutes
41:53long is more concise and better at 2
41:56minutes 50 seconds like let's get it
41:58there but I think the the fun part about
42:00the dance thing and again like I don't
42:01want to act like I'm Reinventing the
42:03wheel here but it was an appreciation
42:04for these long pieces because you're
42:08dancing to them you know it being able
42:10to stretch out and collaborate in
42:11different ways and not just through the
42:12lens of the words and the performance
42:14but also to work together on how you can
42:15make the instrumentation just breathe
42:16and live it's been such a beautiful part
42:18of this record but but you know then you
42:20hit us with birds of a
42:22feather okay birds of a feather is like
42:25hands down the best pop song you've ever
42:26made my opinion and it is such a joy to
42:28listen to it makes me happy and cry at
42:30the same time it reminds me so much of
42:31like Wham and George just it's like the
42:33best Wham song ever made they never made
42:36much love to George Michael yeah but you
42:37know what I mean that moment when and
42:38also we hear you sing you reach a place
42:41in that vocal where you go to the day
42:44and you go there it's like pop yearning
42:46I haven't heard you go I've never heard
42:48you s sing like that well and also that
42:50ending where I'm
42:51like day that
42:55I drift off in the space just kept going
42:58that that's like the highest I've ever
43:00belted in my life and I remember being
43:03in here and being I was in here alone in
43:05the dark dark period of time and I was
43:07just like I going to get this right and
43:10I was recording that like till the day
43:12that I die till the light leaves my eyes
43:16and then I was like you know what I'm
43:18going to I'm going to try something okay
43:20till the day and I'm like I die I could
43:22just hold it or I could go till the day
43:24I die and then I was like dude I'm going
43:27to have to going and I literally was
43:32like and I just was like kept going and
43:35then I was like I got this one I'm going
43:36to just hit the higher one and this is a
43:39girl that like I could not belt until I
43:41was literally 18 like I couldn't
43:43physically do it and I can't I'm like so
43:46proud of that I remember coming home and
43:48being like Mom I came yeah I came
43:50downstairs and this is also the fun
43:52thing about like like gradually over the
43:55last album I was teaching her a little
43:56bit of this but I was like she has such
43:58a good ear and I'm just a like puppet
44:01when it comes to comping her vocal
44:02because she's so meticulous and I can
44:05comp a vocal no prop I've been doing it
44:07forever but like she got better and
44:08better at knowing like I liked this take
44:10and I like this word from this take and
44:11like this word and so I just like well
44:13let me teach you how to do this it's not
44:14that hard and so I taught her how to
44:16record herself and how to comp herself
44:18I'd get a call to come downstairs she's
44:20like something's wrong come downstairs
44:23and fix it but one of the reasons I did
44:26it is cuz I've always recorded alone and
44:29there's stuff that I am just not brave
44:30enough to do in front of somebody else
44:32and it's like I know I'm her brother but
44:34it's like oh I could never have done
44:35that with in the room yeah and also
44:37probably probably some other take in
44:39there you were like I hate this even
44:41though you got the one take that you
44:43killed I think that really Shines on
44:45this album as like a person even without
44:48their collaborator in the room doing the
44:50bravest thing ever and then play this
44:52really quick yeah yeah
44:54[Music]
45:03so good I was really luing so in that
45:05moment before you before you go up that
45:07final note right which is hi hi are you
45:12cuz you've held the the second to
45:13penultimate note for quite long time M
45:16are you in the moment saying to yourself
45:17you just going to have to go for it yeah
45:19I was like I'm I'm just going to try it
45:21I was like I might blow it but I'm going
45:23to just have to try it and I did it okay
45:27wof Wildflower W wo yeah tell me what
45:31your thoughts are well Wildflower is is
45:33I me I have thoughts and and but I don't
45:35want to try not to be too literal with
45:36them but first of all it's one of the
45:38most brilliantly complete songs you ever
45:39made together the whole way that you
45:42sign off on stting sign off and
45:43everything in between is is um pretty
45:46Flawless in terms of capturing a really
45:48complex feeling M um it it has one of
45:50the most devastatingly sad lines about
45:54loving it of all time which is I know
45:56that you love me you don't to remind me
45:58that cut me in pieces because the
46:01reminding you is the point I know it's
46:04the point I I know you don't need me to
46:06tell you but I want to tell you because
46:08it's it's what makes you want to tell me
46:09and that's the connection to cut someone
46:12off and say I already know you don't
46:13have to is like well what the is
46:16left my interpretation again which I
46:19love everyone's interpretation of lines
46:21like this to me it
46:22was that's not going to change how I
46:25feel I already huh I already know this
46:29and I'm not waiting for you to say it I
46:31know it implicitly and I still in the
46:33back of my mind thing but it's not going
46:34to change the way I feel I feel
46:36something for someone else and well it's
46:38more like
46:40like I'm not asking for
46:43reassurance I am 100% confident that you
46:48love me I know this that's not the
46:50problem the problem is this thing that I
46:53can't shake but it's really interesting
46:56because it was kind of
46:59onesided like it was that's why I need
47:02that's why it was really important to
47:03write for me because I I actually came
47:06up with the
47:07um I see her in the back of my mind all
47:10the time that with that Melody I came up
47:12with that
47:16like as soon as I felt it like like this
47:19was like I wasn't even writing much at
47:21the time and that that line I came up
47:23with remember that you came I came in
47:25here and I was like dude I have this
47:26line and I
47:27but but of course I couldn't really get
47:29what I needed cuz I wasn't being super
47:31honest with myself and whatever but um
47:34what was
47:36so like important about the song is that
47:40it was a feeling that I was
47:42experiencing that I think I was alone in
47:45and I think that the person that I that
47:48the song is kind of to and then the
47:50person I'm also talking about I don't
47:52know if they have they had been
47:54experiencing any of those feelings at
47:56all but I couldn't stop thinking about
47:58it you know and it's kind of like that
48:01whole song is kind of like
48:03a it's like a girl code song it's like a
48:06breaking Girl Code thing and I think
48:09that that's one of the
48:11most challenging places is that where
48:14the the line got across the line yeah
48:18yeah yeah it was really interesting that
48:19line as well because accountability has
48:21been a through line in your music
48:23holding people accountable as well as
48:25your own behavior but that's one of
48:26first times I've ever heard you actually
48:28acknowledge a flaw I know yeah I did
48:31something you know I and I feel anxious
48:36about it deeply yeah and it's not a song
48:38about cheating at all there's like no no
48:39cheating all it doesn't feel like
48:40there's any physical activity or any in
48:42that regard but definitely internally it
48:44has nothing to do the thing is it's
48:46about something that didn't wasn't even
48:48bad like it was just something I
48:49couldn't stop I couldn't get out of my
48:51head you know I I love that song that is
48:56like well it's in the middle all the
48:58best s it's in the middle it's in the
48:59middle and it was also
49:01like I don't know we wrote it it kind of
49:04helped me realize it one of the first
49:07full songs we'd written was like really
49:09one of the first couple it really helped
49:11me realize like what was what I what I
49:14was feeling and what I was going through
49:15and being like oh maybe this is actually
49:17affecting me more than I thought yeah
49:18cuz then you know the the idea of I I
49:21see in the back of my mind like a fever
49:23you know the funny thing is we never
49:25forget our fevers as kids at least I
49:26yeah really don't don't forget your
49:28fevers it's like wow I remember when I
49:29had a fever when I was 3 years old you
49:30know it's one of the earliest memories I
49:32had and so it's it's a very visceral
49:34image the idea of this thing you cannot
49:36put out I love that song for so many
49:38reasons and I think what's what I love
49:40about it is that it's such a like
49:42tortured over thinky song it's like a
49:45song that's just like dude I can't stop
49:48thinking about it and it just kind of I
49:51feel like it's portrayed the more the
49:53song goes on and like when I when I
49:55start to like sing the second chorus and
49:58like go up with it and then it turns
49:59into this kind of bigger moment with the
50:01drums and everything yeah and then it
50:03comes back down and then you have the
50:04ending chorus that's similar as the main
50:07one instead it says do you see her in
50:09the back of your mind in my eyes like
50:12classic turn around that right right
50:14right we had to hit him with that and
50:16then you think it's over and then we got
50:19a little repre and I was
50:21very very happy about that yeah I love a
50:25little outro after after thought but
50:28also that we that happened because I
50:32just wanted like a bridge to happen
50:35underneath the like can I cross the line
50:37cuz there's not much going on there and
50:40I we wrote that little bit and I was
50:43like that's I think that's so beautiful
50:45that it needs to have its own it needs
50:47to be heard on its own let's talk about
50:49the greatest I just think that that's a
50:50song that just reflects how far you've
50:52come and where you sit now and your
50:54ability to be able to push each other
50:56that's a really special one for us I
50:58think that to to us the greatest is kind
51:00of like the heart of the album and
51:03the just it it really completes the
51:06whole thing I think and also when we
51:08made it that was like the turning point
51:12that kind of everything went pretty well
51:14after that everything went very well
51:16after that it just kind of woke us back
51:19there also we wrote it when Billy had
51:21her like I think Billy went from living
51:24life to understanding in that moment can
51:27you qualify what you think phas means by
51:30that a little bit I don't know it's what
51:31I was saying earlier it's like really
51:32hard to to see what's going on until
51:36it's over it's well until after yeah um
51:40and I think that this was like the
51:44first day really that I was able
51:48to be honest and I was like scared to be
51:53honest before that and also you know
51:56it's really hard to
51:59[Music]
52:01feel hurt by someone who you love so
52:06much and who is
52:09a some like like a person you'd like
52:12almost die for like a person who you
52:15really have no ill will to like complete
52:20like I don't know it's a it's a tough
52:23thing but when you realize you're
52:25willing to go somewhere that someone
52:27else isn't it's so devastating and
52:31everybody has been in some dynamic in
52:32their life or their relationship like
52:34that but like when you realize that
52:37you'd you know sacrifice and wear
52:40yourself out and compromise all these
52:43things and you realize that you're the
52:45person you're in love with is not making
52:48those sacrifices and is not in that area
52:51to me that's what that song is about
52:53it's
52:54like so kind of like you don't even you
52:56don't even want to know how lonely this
52:59is yeah because that's the that's the
53:01true nature of the song it's such a
53:02journey it it's like when you're at your
53:04best the two of you you're able to take
53:06something really complex and human that
53:09takes people books to write and put it
53:11into four or five minutes of a song it's
53:13What It's what really sets you apart and
53:16I and I think that is the the highest
53:17point you've been able to do that yeah I
53:19mean that is really what that song is
53:20about it and I think the ending of it
53:22that's my favorite part of the song is
53:24that ending because because I think it's
53:26infuriating when you look at a person
53:29and you look at all these things that
53:31the person is so amazing at somebody
53:34that's like ktic and really loving and
53:38really special and just the areas where
53:40they're in their own way that bridge is
53:44I think my favorite Bridge we've made
53:46and then those lyrics which is they're
53:48they're so simple and they're some of my
53:50favorites in the world and also the way
53:51that I sang them and who knows they are
53:53is it it's so to me every time I listen
53:56to it it's so it's so gut so emotional
53:59cathartic just I loved you and I still
54:02do just wanted passion from you oh my
54:06God I just wanted back what you just
54:08wanted what I gave I gave what I gave
54:09you and then I
54:12waited and wa I luded this a little bit
54:15and now we're going to go there um L
54:16more
54:19um L more is brutal know L MO is just
54:23brutal it's so it's brutal so many
54:26so many ways yeah we got when we were
54:29writing that that's a good example of
54:31like there's kernels of life in there
54:33but we the song started to to exist in a
54:37way where we could see it it had less to
54:39do with like you know writing about this
54:41exact experience that happened and more
54:43to do with like sure sometimes you can
54:44see what a it's like a song Stell the
54:46song is like archaeology you're like I'm
54:48going to I'm going to brush away until
54:50you see the skull of the dinosaur I
54:52remember writing the chorus and us just
54:55being like meaner and
54:56like it just got so mean and then the
54:59verses were about kind of like how do we
55:02justify how up and mean that
55:04choruses and then the bridge is so the
55:06bridge is so dismissive the bridge of
55:08lam more the bridge of the bridge of lam
55:12more is the opposite of the bridge of
55:13the greatest oh so you found her go fall
55:16in love just like we were I even if I
55:18even was like I I don't even know if I
55:20was it's very out of the pocket of what
55:24we know you for and there's a re reason
55:26for that and I love all the there's
55:29reasons for that and I love it and the
55:32one that I want to focus on right now
55:33which I love is
55:35um I love that it sounds like you're
55:38actually doing your first ever guest
55:41spot on someone else's it toally does
55:44you know what happened and I remember
55:46this happening Billy had come in and was
55:47like on this like she'd like she was
55:49like Juiced she came in from the from
55:51the gym she was like I need something to
55:53something to lift to or whatever for
55:55real and we made this thing it was and
55:58she started screaming in the mic we thre
56:00autotune on so F and we had this thing
56:02where like the Melodies we liked and the
56:04vibe was so kind of outrageous and it
56:06was a little like uh yeah we were so we
56:08were in a pool that was not we jumped in
56:10the Neighbor's Pool you know what I mean
56:12well also we we we were just at that
56:14time we had just come up with like
56:15random lyrics that were like totally
56:17nonsensical and not about anything and I
56:19remember we had this feeling once we
56:20started to kind of cuz I love a a
56:22production tapestry for a record there
56:24are sound there are like drum sounds and
56:26since that I I put across the whole
56:28album and so things like over now which
56:31is what we we're not putting that on the
56:33album I was like we're not putting that
56:34out and I was like if we do I'll
56:36reproduce it in a place where it's like
56:37maybe it's the same tempo but it feels
56:40more in the same wheelhouse of
56:41everything and ultimately like I kept
56:43sitting with it and I remember saying to
56:44Billy one time I was like the bravest
56:47thing we can do is just put it out like
56:49this like just put it out put it like on
56:52the end of something that that is
56:53completely different and just have it be
56:56a little secret at the end you know not
56:57put it out as its own thing and it was
56:59like minute and a half and also so it's
57:02what's funny is it's it feels like it's
57:05part of lam more but it's completely not
57:06it's like about a completely different
57:08thing that we cuz we we made the
57:10original one in I think like November
57:14October October um and then we rewrote
57:18it in like right before we finished was
57:21like one of the last things over a year
57:22later it sort of stemmed from the album
57:25in in all it's just about Billy it's not
57:27a narrative album about a fictional
57:29character or something but we have
57:30always loved like songs within songs
57:33within songs like a thing where it's
57:35like is this a song that the person
57:39singing this other song is listening to
57:41now you know what I mean and it kind of
57:42has that feeling you've kind of just
57:44listened to Billy sort of sing she's so
57:48heartbroken in the greatest and then she
57:50sings this song that's like the anti the
57:52antibody of like you know what you
57:55anyway and then she kind of found all
57:57these different yes but then she kind of
57:59goes she kind of goes to the club yeah
58:01it's like it's I'm ready to go out I'm
58:02ready to have a good time I've still got
58:04you in the back of my mind but I'm
58:05going to dance my way through this
58:06 and this is how it's going to go
58:09has it changed your approach to to how
58:10you show up on other people's
58:14songs um cuz that's rare and yet when I
58:18hear it on that I'm like is this the
58:20start of of like there's a lot of
58:22freedom in your life right now I get a
58:23sense that you're like hey man I'm not
58:24as afraid as I was yeah and life is wide
58:27open for me we um we did a session with
58:31another artist I did a session with
58:32another arti artist for the first time
58:33in six years holy when was this
58:36couple weeks coup weeks ago it was so
58:38fun and it was really fun and I was
58:40really nervous cuz I was like wow I I I
58:43I haven't worked with anyone but Phineas
58:45in six years and I hated it back in the
58:47day I really really hated it I hated
58:49Studios I hated collaborating I've never
58:51done a feature even when we do stuff
58:53like the Labyrinth thing that's like a
58:56we love who we're friendly with sort of
58:58sending us files across the
59:00internet priv fully a pen pal situation
59:03and he sends it and if we come up with
59:05nothing good then it goes away right
59:07yeah this was a this was to me like such
59:10a fun part of like being in the music
59:13business was like Billy was sitting and
59:16telling me why she loved this one artist
59:18we were watching their music videos
59:20together and I know them and I was
59:22texting them and I was like we're
59:24sitting here watching your stuff it's so
59:25good they were like I'm in La I was like
59:30do you want to do a day did your stomach
59:31chin when you're like wow yeah trying to
59:33get out of it like why are you making me
59:35do that what are you talking about what
59:36you talk the stuff yeah Billy's whole
59:39relationship with music has been so high
59:41stakes really empathize I make stuff
59:44with people so much and the stakes are
59:47so low in terms of like we make
59:48something we noodle around we like it or
59:50we don't it never goes anywhere whatever
59:52Billy is like Billy is like sitting in
59:54front of a microphone it's the two of us
59:56in a room and she has to
59:58think is like I'm going I'm going to
01:00:01have to go out on every stage for the
01:00:03next 50 years and sing this song every
01:00:06day well and also you know becoming
01:00:09successful at like
01:00:1114 meant that music which was for my
01:00:14whole childhood and my all my pre-teen
01:00:17years before anything was something that
01:00:20I loved so much and enjoyed thoroughly
01:00:24and you know my friends would sing We
01:00:27would sing together and we would
01:00:29harmonize and do covers of stuff and
01:00:30record it and I I got so much joy out of
01:00:34that and then it became my job and I
01:00:38kind of lost all my friends and I hated
01:00:41working with all these you know grown
01:00:43men when I was 14 15 those were not fun
01:00:46those were not fun I don't know why they
01:00:47would have been but you know I I I
01:00:51literally like realized a couple months
01:00:53ago in hanging out with my my friends
01:00:56and just casually casually together
01:00:59being Musical and and making music I was
01:01:01like wait this is my passion in life and
01:01:05I love doing this so much and also I'm
01:01:08really good at it I'm a professional
01:01:10musician apparently like I like I'm like
01:01:12oh apparently apparently but I was like
01:01:15I'm like oh wait I'm I'm I'm actually
01:01:17I'm a professional musician I didn't I
01:01:19like don't think about that and I'm I'm
01:01:22I haven't enjoyed it in a really long
01:01:25time and and I'm like and even when I do
01:01:28when we make music I enjoy it but it's
01:01:30not for enjoyment it's for the making of
01:01:32it and for the putting it out and and to
01:01:34the point like you can enjoy something
01:01:36but we take it really seriously we want
01:01:38to make something great Ser so I never
01:01:40really get to have fun with it and so I
01:01:42found myself in my living room with two
01:01:44of my friends and we were all just
01:01:46playing music and I literally like was
01:01:48going to cry I was like you guys have no
01:01:50idea how much this means to me like the
01:01:52thing that everyone probably assumes is
01:01:54like something
01:01:56all day I don't really get to enjoy
01:01:59making music like that the conversation
01:02:01seems to be flowing beautifully from one
01:02:02thing to the next because yeah the idea
01:02:04of being free and being able to go out
01:02:05there and make music that gets away from
01:02:08what it was kind of what the din sounds
01:02:11like to me I think the nature of the
01:02:14music and I think the creepiness of the
01:02:16words conjures up a sense of there's an
01:02:18unhinged nature to this song and being
01:02:21human yeah at its very core is kind of
01:02:24an unhinged experience
01:02:26for sure right so you're really diving
01:02:28into something
01:02:30that defies any conventional logic or
01:02:33understanding in this song it's like why
01:02:35am I even in this song what is going on
01:02:39well I it was yeah and I think that now
01:02:41that I think about it it's a big it was
01:02:43like a a very un unperfected song like
01:02:48it was we kind of yeah we it didn't
01:02:50really change much from where it started
01:02:52in fact that we kept we kept cleaning it
01:02:54up too much and then putting dirt true
01:02:56we would clean it up and be like this is
01:02:57better when it's rock even the the
01:02:59actual sound of the beat she one of
01:03:03Billy's cool like Loi things that we do
01:03:05is like sometimes I'll be like do you
01:03:08want me to bounce this today she'll go
01:03:10no it's okay and she'll film the
01:03:12computer screen that's what I did for
01:03:13all these other amazing so you're
01:03:14listening to it through iPhone coming
01:03:17through the speakers it's not even I'll
01:03:20take a video with the screen love the
01:03:22slap of the room has a lot of Life yeah
01:03:25and so Billy would then we'd be
01:03:27listening to then I would bounce it and
01:03:29Billy be like it sounds really sterile
01:03:31it doesn't have AAP sound like my phone
01:03:33and so I I've done that so the beat on
01:03:36that song I reamped so I like set up
01:03:38mics in the room and then played it
01:03:40through the room and then reamped it so
01:03:41a big thing which is also on over now
01:03:43which is the end of L more is the
01:03:45handheld mic we were talking about had
01:03:47this like delay on it and when I was
01:03:50recording at one point I put the mic
01:03:52down and it was picking up yeah it was
01:03:55feedback it was a lot of feedback and I
01:03:56was like tight and I just hit record and
01:03:59like let it stood to speak so that's why
01:04:01the a guitarist do feedback just holding
01:04:04the mic next to the speaker the
01:04:06production where it started you know we
01:04:08kind of had fun with it and we came up
01:04:10with all that weird stuff and then I
01:04:11remember kind of over time I was like is
01:04:14this like
01:04:15too like silly like is this not serious
01:04:18enough like you know I kind of felt like
01:04:20it was this is weird to say but it was
01:04:22almost like Billy iishi I was like Billy
01:04:26beat yeah be I was like is this a little
01:04:28like that maybe but I was like it's kind
01:04:30of tight though the way that that works
01:04:32you know as as a body of work we
01:04:33couldn't ask for more truth and honesty
01:04:36and also character development which as
01:04:38we've established just so good at in the
01:04:40grand scheme are you are you too close
01:04:42to be able to identify yet but what does
01:04:44this album afford you in the future
01:04:46where does it allow you to go great
01:04:48question you know I I have a I have a
01:04:51part answer before I feel like you
01:04:52should give a more real answer but I was
01:04:55like I saw this interview years ago with
01:04:57Fiona Apple that was an old interview
01:04:59even then wasn't present day where she
01:05:01was like you should finish an album and
01:05:03feel like you got nothing left yeah and
01:05:05I super felt that way when we finished
01:05:07it and it's been done now that's our
01:05:09whole thing yeah it's been done now for
01:05:125 months I guess about yeah we just felt
01:05:14like we'd given it everything we had and
01:05:17that felt great like it felt great to
01:05:19not have stuff still on the table um and
01:05:23I think that we have like you know we
01:05:25did a session a couple weeks ago and
01:05:27we're we have you know more stuff
01:05:29planned but I think exactly what Billy's
01:05:31talking about like I think we're going
01:05:32to like be jamming and having a kind of
01:05:34an experimental you know fun experience
01:05:37like I think other people well I was
01:05:39going to say that you will are you able
01:05:41to let each other go in the loveliest
01:05:42way possible now knowing that when you
01:05:44come back it's still there for you if
01:05:47you want it to be well I think it's like
01:05:48not even letting each other go but it's
01:05:51opening up to
01:05:53like more you know and I think like
01:05:55Phineas Phineas works with all kinds of
01:05:58different other artists and writes with
01:06:00a bunch of different people and I think
01:06:01that it makes him I come back better the
01:06:05from the very beginning of working with
01:06:08Billy like I remember just to like the
01:06:11first example I can think of was like I
01:06:13did some session with somebody the day
01:06:14before Billy and I made copycat and I
01:06:17like was suddenly on the spot with this
01:06:19artist and they were like I want drums
01:06:21like this right and I had to do this
01:06:23thing that and then I put the scent on
01:06:25it and was like all this stuff that then
01:06:26the next day when Billy and I sat down
01:06:28to work I was like do you want like
01:06:29here's some of the stuff I was sort of
01:06:31working on yesterday and I think that
01:06:34yeah you just gain all this experience
01:06:36you know and again like I'd love to be a
01:06:39part of you know all the steps in
01:06:41between with Billy if she wants but I'm
01:06:42also like all of it's good if Billy and
01:06:45her her friends are sitting around sing
01:06:48you know especially like singing
01:06:49anything that you love or just making
01:06:51stuff up it's like it's so exciting um
01:06:55like this was the album I was always
01:06:57trying to make you know what I mean and
01:07:00and I really feel
01:07:03um I'm so proud of it and I don't I'm
01:07:06proud of it in a way that like been
01:07:08proud of things a couple times where
01:07:10like
01:07:12I my opinion of it does not hinge on
01:07:15anybody it's so meaningful to hear that
01:07:17you love it but like if I heard that
01:07:20privately you were like I don't really
01:07:21get it I'd be like I love Zayn and
01:07:23that's fine and I love this album you I
01:07:25mean like to me it's like it's so kind
01:07:27of a validation from within of like I
01:07:30love how making this album felt I love
01:07:33how listening to this album feels you
01:07:34know when we first went into playing it
01:07:37for people and who whoever like I was
01:07:42really nervous and I
01:07:45genuinely had either no idea what people
01:07:48were going to think and if anything I
01:07:50thought like people might not like I
01:07:53don't know if they'll like it and you
01:07:54know I remembering it for the label when
01:07:57it was not done but there were pieces
01:08:00and a lot of it was done like seven or
01:08:01eight songs were right done and but of
01:08:04course we were like it's not done but I
01:08:07remember um like John janick who is the
01:08:10head of my label was like this is the
01:08:13best thing you've ever made I want to
01:08:14give a shout out to John and Justin
01:08:17because I was I remember when it had
01:08:20when we' finished it we were like we
01:08:21were playing mixes you know what I mean
01:08:22like production was done um and uh and
01:08:27it was like the first time they were
01:08:28hearing several of the songs and only
01:08:30the second time ever that they were
01:08:31hearing the rest of it and we' never
01:08:32said we'd love to know your thoughts we
01:08:35were just like here's the record and
01:08:36Billy was like with the lighting
01:08:37until it was the perfect color of blue
01:08:39like that was what we were on and
01:08:42everyone was really nice and we sat
01:08:43there and played it as loud as can be
01:08:44for everybody yeah and I sent John a
01:08:47text afterward and I owe this to Justin
01:08:48and John which is I was like it is not
01:08:50lost on me that you let us operate this
01:08:53way because first of all we we know that
01:08:56most labels do not operate that way most
01:08:59people do not operate that way with
01:09:00their artists where they want to hear it
01:09:02you know what I mean they're fronting
01:09:03you they're fronting you money they're
01:09:06about to commit a huge amount of
01:09:07resources Rel it's a relationship and
01:09:10sometimes people have to feel like they
01:09:13were involved to even like something
01:09:15sometimes people if if you catch them
01:09:17off guard they're like who it's done
01:09:19it's really you know what I mean they
01:09:20have to be there they have to you have
01:09:21to hold their hand yeah and I also said
01:09:24to John I was like we never would have
01:09:27been able to make this album if you'd
01:09:29done that to us if we'd been having to
01:09:31give you quarterly reports if we'd been
01:09:33having to like keep updating you on it
01:09:35and sending you
01:09:37mixes we would
01:09:39have like we had to make this album in
01:09:41the dark quietly alone and and to a
01:09:45degree that Billy talked about earlier
01:09:46in the day we weren't even bouncing it
01:09:47to each other that's what I'm you silent
01:09:50one of the if not the first question I
01:09:51asked you is what would you have said to
01:09:52each other if you'd walked in
01:09:55eight years ago whenever it was into
01:09:57that bedroom and you were making that
01:09:58debut album
01:10:00and I think you've done it I think I
01:10:03think you're still there but you're here
01:10:05if that this might be what we'd say we
01:10:07might say this album yeah that's what
01:10:08I'm saying I I I think youve somehow
01:10:10recaptured that spirit that you had on
01:10:12in those early days and come back home
01:10:15come back to a place but it's like all
01:10:17still possible you know what's possible
01:10:18now with the knowledge and experience of
01:10:21the last five or six years you know what
01:10:22I also have as a piece of advice to give
01:10:24to anyone watching this that makes any
01:10:26form of Art and maybe you feel this way
01:10:28I'm so relieved that I feel so great
01:10:30about this album because there were
01:10:33weeks on end of making it where I was
01:10:35like I think we've lost it that's what
01:10:36I'm saying and that like I think
01:10:39sometimes you think while you're making
01:10:40something that it has to feel good in
01:10:43the moment to end up good you know what
01:10:45I mean that's so true don't get stuck on
01:10:48that it's hard not to feel that way you
01:10:49think this feels I feel so out of my
01:10:51comfort zone I feel so vulnerable that's
01:10:54fine what is to to it while you make it
01:10:55to love it while you make it is fart
01:10:57that's a fart that's right that's a fart
01:10:59a little bit of fear is good in that
01:11:01moment it yeah I mean I think I saw a
01:11:04video of us writing what was I made for
01:11:06and there's not one single moment while
01:11:08we wrote it where we were like wow that
01:11:10was good we're just doing the job like
01:11:13okay and okay that line all right what's
01:11:15the next line that's fear fear it's fear
01:11:18do the best work creating you know it
01:11:20doesn't you don't have to be
01:11:22like okay so what's this album Fe or F
01:11:26fear it's fear and it's growth and it's
01:11:30you know discomfort but also comfort and
01:11:34you know growing and learning and and
01:11:36experiencing and that is all fear I mean
01:11:39what's scarier than changing what is
01:11:41scar oh my god well you know that's part
01:11:44of that's part of the experience of life
01:11:45is to is to accept that you really can't
01:11:48and and and it's the letting go in the
01:11:49moving forward is that is that all you
01:11:51can really focus on and trust you got
01:11:52the tools to deal with it cuz
01:11:54trust me it's all deal with aable people
01:11:56who talk about and look at their college
01:11:58experience or their High School
01:11:59experience is like this like unbridled
01:12:02period of Joy or whatever like I have so
01:12:03much empathy for like this thing that
01:12:06you cannot get back build again because
01:12:09it's a moment in time I have so much
01:12:10empathy for all the kids that like lost
01:12:11all that to covid you know what I mean
01:12:13like it's really challenging why did you
01:12:16say what you said at the end of the
01:12:17album
01:12:19um that's great just end it
01:12:22that's Fire end just end done
01:12:26as soon as the album was mastered I was
01:12:27like I want to do the Zan interview I
01:12:30glad you wanted to do we never do this
01:12:32this is f enjoy this you know thank you
01:12:34crew that yeah thanks guys
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