00:02perfect um awesome so um I think one one
00:06question I'd be super interested in
00:07hearing is I guess you all have been
00:09you've seen community at the early
00:11stages at the later stages I'm curious
00:13how you see the role of community
00:15evolving uh from kind of the very early
00:17days uh to to the sort of later stage I
00:21think everybody's here is on the kind of
00:23earlier side of things um but but yeah I
00:27guess I'm just curious how you've seen
00:34am I jumping in okay I'll jump
00:37in uh so in our course that Mark andar
00:39are building which is really fun to make
00:41something together um we are trying to
00:45find people in the early stage because
00:46you're right I have worked in later
00:48stage communities and early and in the
00:50early days um like Mark mentioned
00:52there's a lot of product building as
00:54well that you're trying to do and so
00:55you're trying to figure out how do you
00:57mix those two together so any good any
00:59good initiative in a business is going
01:00to go back to the business goals right
01:02and so you have to make sure that the
01:03community goals are aligned to the
01:04business goals which is not the case
01:06your surprising number of times people
01:08want to build community think it feels
01:09good but they're not thinking
01:10strategically about it um so what we're
01:14trying to do in our course is get you
01:15from zero to 100 people to help you
01:18co-design and our belief from both of
01:21our experience and from other smarter
01:22people than us that we've heard is that
01:24in the future there's going to be like
01:2695% of products are really going to be
01:27designed with people and it's just the
01:29tools and processes to do that are still
01:32being invented and and mainstreamed and
01:34so you know if you're building something
01:36education is an interesting industry
01:37because you have more connection to uh
01:39the people you're going to be making
01:40curriculum for often but the hard part
01:42of education is often that you have a
01:44lot of different audiences you might
01:45have parents you might have students you
01:46might have legislators like there's a
01:48lot of different communities when I was
01:49working at KH Academy we had to think
01:50about separately um so on the early days
01:54though yeah we're trying to basically
01:56ramp people up and we think that really
01:57involves um kind of the the main main
02:00Community framework that I I kind of
02:02Point people to if they're just like
02:03asking first off is the community
02:05maturity model I don't know if has
02:06anyone heard of that raise your hand if
02:07you've heard of the community maturity
02:09model okay I'm gonna share my screen if
02:11I can we'll find out in a
02:15um can you see this uh diagram
02:20now can someone tell me if you see it
02:22yeah okay Mark saying yes I I lost you
02:25okay cool so what's really important
02:27about communities is that at the
02:31Community there's just you with your
02:33crazy idea like have you ever seen that
02:35dancing person video there's just
02:36someone dancing crazy and doing
02:38something insane so it's a little bit
02:39hierarchical you're the heartbeat for
02:41that Community you think through how do
02:43I go from hierarchy to really emergent
02:46community and what we're going to be
02:48teaching in our course and what I think
02:49is really smart is how do you create a
02:51steady pulse because people love
02:52consistency we're like our brains are
02:54just built to predict things to see
02:56patterns we love it when there's like
02:57repeated patterns and so how do you find
03:00a place find the lowest friction way for
03:02people to come together maybe it's a
03:03text message maybe it's a meeting in
03:05your school whatever it is and then how
03:08do you continually Drive conversation
03:10there until you're eye interesting and
03:12then make it not about you but make it
03:14about something bigger than yourself
03:15because we all want to be part of
03:16something bigger than ourselves that's
03:17just human psychology and so as you do
03:19that then you're able to um have other
03:21people get excited and inspired by your
03:23mission whatever it is you're doing
03:25giving product feedback Early Access you
03:27can kind of play it an intrinsic and ex
03:29inic motivations and that's really
03:31important people are going to want
03:32different things so you build your stuff
03:34your content around that but you're drum
03:36beating a pulse throughout that trying
03:38to get people to start responding and
03:40then once you get people to start
03:41responding you can start to think about
03:42some of these emerging Community things
03:44and then this framework has a nice like
03:46just broad approach of how to think
03:48about all these different aspects of
03:49community it's a little overwhelming
03:50honestly for people at first so all I
03:52really want to highlight is like
03:53everyone's starting here it's
03:55hierarchical you're a crazy person
03:57dancing and then you want to get other
03:59people to dance dance with you and so
04:00you try and build consistent interesting
04:02dance moves or content and then over
04:04time other people are going to do those
04:05dance moves too and you get into this
04:07emergent community space where then you
04:08can start to think about how do I
04:10Empower how do I get this person to take
04:12this on how do I do that and eventually
04:13you're going to try and get maybe a
04:15community maybe to network depends on
04:17your exact product and goals so I'll be
04:25helpful yeah I think that's super
04:27interesting Nathan uh love to hear more
04:30about sort of the the process that you
04:32are teaching in in in your course in
04:34generally in your work how do you sort
04:37of help others of progress through those
04:39steps um do you use the same uh model or
04:43do you kind of do any variations of the
04:45community maturity model I'm curious how
04:47you help uh folks specifically kind of
04:50move up from hierarchy to
04:57network you're muted I'm muted sorry
05:00it depends on the time frame one thing a
05:01lot of people will mistake make a
05:03mistake on is thinking that Community
05:04can be an easy and quick win and
05:05actually I'm interested to hear about
05:06Mark's experience this at wise but
05:08oftentimes when I'm doing stuff myself
05:09or with other companies I've worked with
05:11I always tell people it's like a longer
05:13haul like don't try and get like a a one
05:15month win here um you know it's really
05:17gonna have to be building over time and
05:18so what we're trying to do in our course
05:19in a month is go from zero to 100 we're
05:21not going to try and take you all the
05:22way to network we're going to try and
05:24get you from hierarchy to starting to be
05:27an emerging Community uh and
05:30but yeah I'm curious Mark what do you
05:31think like in terms of the um early
05:33community and you know how people can
05:37the kind of question Alberto asked which
05:38he framed better than I I'm about to
05:41here you're muted too yeah I think it's
05:45I think you answer that question in the
05:48in in in the in the framework as well uh
05:51it's important to know that Community
05:53takes time like it takes trust and Trust
05:56takes time right so like there's no
05:58shortcut to that like you start with uh
06:00your close tight knit of peers uh and
06:04ask them for uh reach out to them like
06:06uh who's going to resonate with the
06:08mission and the problem that you're
06:09solving then slowly you work your way up
06:12uh this reminded me Nathan of the path
06:14to 100 that we did so maybe I can share
06:16my screen this time uh I actually try to
06:18pull this uh quickly here so can
06:25slide yeah yeah this is this is the
06:28oversimplified way of how to get to your
06:31100 members right so uh within each of
06:34these bucket there are uh many elements
06:36that you can do to get there so for
06:38example if you're starting the first
06:40thing you do is reach out to your family
06:41friends or fear and ask them to give
06:43specific feedback to what you're doing
06:46uh if you're ideation face bring them in
06:48and have them uh discuss whether your
06:51ideas are are valid or not right and
06:53then you slowly work your way up like
06:55you ask for referrals invite other
06:57people to join because now they have
06:58context of of what you're trying to do
07:00and hopefully they're bought into your
07:01mission right so I think a lot of people
07:03here have a group of uh different groups
07:05of parents students and uh institutions
07:07working working together so make sure
07:10you reach out to them uh the third and
07:12the fourth pillars I think are the part
07:15where it gets a little bit tricky
07:16because people uh don't may not know how
07:20to handle things at scale right so when
07:22you have 20 to 40 people that's the time
07:25that you're going to start seeing really
07:27passionate people uh very active users
07:30and then uh start thinking about
07:32building a Content calendar to make sure
07:34that they understand like how you're how
07:36you're driving uh the road map right so
07:38you build a Content calendar to have
07:40consistent engagement and then starting
07:42uh start choosing moderators and leaders
07:45within that group so once you have that
07:47uh then you scale it further uh by
07:49measuring retention and NPS as you start
07:52iterating on your uh events or products
07:55and then yeah I mean it's all about uh
07:58like making sure that you open the
07:59connection between not just you and the
08:02audience or not not just you and the
08:04Community member but among the community
08:06members as well so that's how I view it
08:10yeah thank you thank you so much um so I
08:13have h two more questions and then um I
08:16want to open it up for the group because
08:18I feel like there's probably better
08:19questions even than whatever I can come
08:21up with um I think one is uh just
08:25curious to learn um um maybe Mark or or
08:30Nathan what are some of the examples
08:33that you've seen of like specific
08:34communities that have grown in a way
08:36that inspires you that all of us here
08:39can can can try to study like what are
08:41some of the companies that you've seen
08:43uh do this well um perhaps moving from
08:46zero to 100 or or maybe they were
08:48already at 100 they're taking to a
08:50thousand like um yeah what are some of
08:53the benchmarks that we should should
08:55have as we think about this community
09:01Mark and I clearly need like hand
09:02signals about who's going to
09:04answer that the hand signal for me to
09:08Mark okay yeah um you know having built
09:13like a number of communities I think a
09:14lot of the ones I've worked on first and
09:16then I think as some other examples um
09:18kind of second but the thing about
09:21community and product is that it's very
09:23different for a lot of different things
09:25if you're doing a like we've talked to
09:27some people who are doing like a B2B
09:28product and so their Community might
09:30actually be um another company we talked
09:32to people who are actually trying to
09:33innovate inside a big company and build
09:35community there and then we've talked to
09:37people who are doing you know direct to
09:39Consumer stuff and I've worked in
09:40education and those are all very
09:41different examples so um what inspires
09:45me is great leaders like the nice thing
09:47about community and why people use it as
09:49a bud word is because it gets down
09:50deeper into some core human
09:52characteristics and so if you see
09:54someone who is just like giving a lot
09:57that is someone who's probably going to
09:58be building in a pretty incredible
09:59Community you can learn a lot from so
10:01like uh for me really inspiring leaders
10:03that have built really amazing
10:04communities are someone like Malala like
10:07she's basically has this incredible
10:08story it's so passionate about other
10:10people learning and she's galvanized the
10:12whole world around her because she's
10:14basically just giving and giving and
10:15giving and is putting her soul into what
10:18she's doing um you know on the product
10:20front one one one that we've kind of
10:22talked about is you know a product like
10:24product hunt but that's a very Community
10:26Centric product and so that might not be
10:28as good example for everybody um one
10:30story that I can share from my own
10:32personal experience is building this
10:33community called gameful where we had um
10:36this woman Jane mcgonagal who had given
10:38all these talks about how games can make
10:39the world a better place and she had all
10:41these people that wanted to do stuff but
10:42she couldn't coordinate them all there
10:43was like you know 50 hundred, people she
10:45did a TED Talk and so then the the the
10:48exciting part was then trying to connect
10:49them all together we literally would do
10:51like weekly calls just trying to be like
10:52what do you want to do what are you
10:53excited about and so um you know those
10:56are three examples that I can give and
10:58but there's a billion you know there's
10:59so many it's really um I think it's it
11:01behooves people who are trying to build
11:03communities to think about their
11:05business their Community goals and we
11:07have an exercise called a community
11:08vision building too which is like good
11:09to try and tie those together and then
11:11find examples that in things that are
11:14relevant for you if it's education which
11:16yeah anyway I'll be quiet
11:18there thanks Nathan you gave me some
11:21time to think about my answer um but
11:24actually the that is a good example the
11:26other one uh that came to mind is
11:29actually on De so H has people here
11:31heard about it uh who's heard of on
11:36De uh who's part of it is there any
11:41here uh I see like a few hands all right
11:44so uh I I say that because it's a
11:46community of Learners and I think it's
11:47very relevant here so uh this is not a
11:50pitch but I heard Eric torenberg started
11:52that 2016 as a series of dinners like he
11:55just wanted to do some casual dinner
11:57with people who are uh in the in the
11:59startup space and then uh over time he
12:02started asking people like who's looking
12:04for next gig or who's looking for next
12:06opportunity and I think majority of the
12:08people says they want to meet someone
12:10who's thinking about making their next
12:11move so it started uh in in uh dinners
12:16uh did that for several years and then
12:19over time he just realized that he can
12:21make a company out of it so now it's a
12:23company of network uh what What's F what
12:25F what sorry a network of people what
12:29fascinates me is that they don't really
12:31have a product they just bring people
12:33together and have the discussion flowing
12:36and then they started to build product
12:38they started to build job boards and
12:40directory and all of this stuff so I
12:41think it's a very ground up way of
12:43thinking about community and if if you
12:45have something like that I think that's
12:46going to be very powerful because
12:49essentially you're doing it with your
12:50community members in fact I think a good
12:52number of people working there were on
12:54the uh on the community members so it's
12:57like it became the recruit recruitment
12:59funel as well yeah well super cool
13:02examples and um yeah I think last
13:05question I have on my end and uh anybody
13:08who has any questions drop them in the
13:09chat so we can uh give you the the floor
13:13um the last question on my end is uh
13:16what are the tools that you're excited
13:18about that you find yourself using um
13:22days I can I can start with that uh it
13:25depends on the tools so tools can be
13:27either for having discussions for having
13:30events or like a Content management
13:32system right so uh there's so many tools
13:37the one that you can use for discussions
13:40I always say discourse so I'm not sure
13:41if you heard of it so uh in discussions
13:44you can use slack Discord uh Facebook
13:46groups and so forth or you can use some
13:49a tool that is more of like a forum
13:51format uh discourse is actually
13:54relatively cheap it's open source and
13:56then it's a forum and uh the funny thing
13:58thing is that's one of my first project
14:00in my startup the CEO told me Mark can
14:03you fix our groups or a bulletin it's
14:05like 1990s and I said okay this is not
14:08really what I wanted to do here but sure
14:10I'm going to take a step I looked at
14:12many different software solution for
14:13forums and this is the one that I think
14:15worked the best uh it uh it has a lot of
14:17good moderation tools uh and it allows
14:21for people to search for Content
14:22previously more easily than a feed so I
14:25think if you're looking for a way to
14:26just uh uh build an an offthe shelf
14:30solution that will allow your community
14:33members to discuss without having to
14:34disclose like their their personal lives
14:37via Facebook groups then go with this
14:40one I can I can share more but I'm GNA
14:46first Ethan do you have anything else to
14:48add in terms of the tools
14:52or um I think the most important thing
14:55you can learn in the community or social
14:57media space is to go or to where users
14:59are and then the second most important
15:01thing you can learn is the amount of
15:02effort it takes to migrate something as
15:03it gets too big so you have this kind of
15:05tradeoff between wanting to be really
15:07low and frictionless and then also
15:09wanting to you know not have to tra tra
15:11change your tools too many times so it's
15:14not easy um you know tools that I've
15:17used in the past are definitely forums
15:19definitely in startups like I'm I'm also
15:21an angel investor and startup advisor
15:23and on some of my friend startups they
15:24will use like a just a text message
15:26group and that will be like where those
15:27first 100 people saying like I have this
15:29crazy idea I want to do with your
15:30Hardware or whatever um but but then
15:33yeah as you get bigger you have to like
15:35you know migrations are just a lot of
15:37work so you just have to be thoughtful
15:38about that yeah totally this is
15:41something we um we've been thinking
15:43about um as well like we're using good
15:46old slack um and we're we're trying out
15:49a new app for um a new platform
15:52Community platform that um actually went
15:54through transcend Fellowship uh a lot of
15:56you all know morteza um he built a
15:59heartbeat and we're trying it for a new
16:02cohort and um for for the exploration
16:05lab the new of course something worth
16:07thinking about um Mark I don't know if I
16:10cut you off I don't know if you have
16:11something else to have there oh sorry
16:13I'm just reacting um yeah I I agree with
16:15that I I said yes because I'm using
16:17heartbeat and I'm trying to combine what
16:19you said with what Nathan said so uh
16:21heartbeat and ccal or and mighty
16:23networks are three other tools if you're
16:25looking for one uh I'm part of all of
16:27those but it's very hard for me to like
16:30open a window and log in and check that
16:32because it's not part of my system so
16:34this goes back to what Nathan said if
16:36the if your audience uh is not familiar
16:38with the tool or it's not part of their
16:40system uh it's going to be very hard to
16:43uh for them to to check that unless
16:45there's a very strong reason to so just
16:46keep that in mind yeah totally all right
16:49so it's time for me to shut up and uh
16:53let you all ask the good questions so
16:55Greg you had a great question about sort
16:57of co-developing communities um do you
17:00want to mute yourself and and ask away
17:02sure this is more of like a naive
17:04question since this is like tell me what
17:07are the obstacles that I'm not not
17:09currently mapping out here but it seems
17:12like all these communities are kind of
17:13like Russian nesting dolls and there's
17:15various intersecting it's a very messy
17:17vend diagram if we were to see sort of
17:20where all these fall and it seems to me
17:22there might be some early Network
17:24effects from really uh finding a really
17:27good alignment for people that are
17:29serving the same kind of community
17:31numbers like a very targeted segment and
17:34partnering with them to develop or Cod
17:36develop like the same kinds of early
17:38adopter teachers like for instance we're
17:41looking for fifth to like seventh grade
17:43language arts teachers that are usually
17:45three to four years in the profession
17:47and active on Pinterest like that we we
17:50have a very very narrow Target of our
17:52buyer Persona um and I feel like that
17:55would be relevant to say a math company
17:58that's not competing with us at all do
18:00you see that as an inspired sort of
18:03Avenue to go down and building this very
18:05early stage uh Community or do you think
18:08the coordination is just going to be
18:09prohibitively expensive and detangling
18:12or decoupling that as as scaling at
18:14different rates is not worth it so yeah
18:18that it depends on the mission of what
18:19you're doing and then the mission of the
18:21people you're trying to Galvanize right
18:22so I actually worked on several
18:24communities like what you're describing
18:25at IDE we were trying to and at KH
18:27Academy we were trying to connect
18:28different types of teachers with very
18:30specific niches together maybe you
18:32you've done a great job thinking about
18:34that so like your mission will will then
18:37like sort of resonate or not resonate
18:38with that group and assuming it does
18:40then the next question is how much time
18:42do they have right teachers can
18:44oftentimes be really busy and really
18:45hard to put into communities for that
18:46reason because they don't have time and
18:48then how do you make that um low
18:50friction the network effects part um you
18:53don't need a huge Community right like
18:55it really depends on the goal like if
18:56you're trying to be Reddit you want want
18:58a big Community if you're trying to have
18:59this super tight group of teachers it's
19:02almost like a professional association
19:04right and so you don't necessarily need
19:06tons you just need a couple high value
19:07ones um so I would say that the biggest
19:11challenge I've seen with educational
19:13communities is the time and so then you
19:15really have to think about the friction
19:17and you have to think about why are they
19:18going to do this when they already
19:19probably have too much going on in their
19:21lives and so you need those motivations
19:23to really speak to them are you we've I
19:25know we've done stuff like giving
19:26special C certificates trying their
19:28reputation or we pay people and so you
19:31have these like extrinsic motivations
19:33around you know reputation internal
19:35curiosity and then these int EXT
19:37extrinsic ones I think I might have said
19:38extrinsic twice the first was intrinsic
19:41extrinsic ones are things like money or
19:42reputation and then there's blend in the
19:44middle um and there's like good diagrams
19:47you can find about those two things and
19:49then when you're designing your
19:50community you can like try and pull some
19:51of each but I wouldn't worry about
19:53Network effects I would just worry about
19:55are people going to be excited can you
19:57be that crazy dancer that gets them
19:59going and then how do you make it low
20:00friction if they don't have a lot of
20:03time I I agree with what Nathan said and
20:06to add uh like I think there are two
20:09ways of looking at it like you need to
20:11cast The Net wide to get that excitement
20:13going and then to build the hype and to
20:15drive awareness however if you really
20:17want to get the the uh the target users
20:22or Target members that you want to bring
20:24in like you have to go deep so they
20:26serve two purpose like it's cha by uh by
20:29by Design but keep in mind that you're
20:31not going to get in like a thousand
20:33people uh right away uh you're going to
20:36you're going to do this marketing
20:37awareness uh initiatives to uh put your
20:40name and word out there and then once
20:42start when people start seeing that you
20:44pay attention to who they are and then
20:45you have a more thorough conversation so
20:50niche thank you both um Ang you had a
20:54great question about uh sort of how
20:55Community fits into the product like
21:00way yeah okay sorry I cannot really
21:03speak today but um I think my question
21:06was that how can you integrate community
21:08in the product life cycle and especially
21:11as the product evolves like how does
21:13community evolves together with the
21:17product I I can start with that I guess
21:20so uh like it it depends on what your
21:23product is right so I I I I was looking
21:25at the website there's a lot of like
21:26learning platforms and tools uh consumer
21:29app so uh let's take that for example uh
21:32before uh I think people would just try
21:34to build their products on their own do
21:36user Centric research a focus group
21:38discussions in a small setting and then
21:40once it's done you put it out in your in
21:42front of your community right and ask
21:43them to use it uh I think that's a very
21:46risky way of doing it plus uh there's
21:48going to be a lot of work needed to get
21:51a buy in for them to use it in order to
21:54make this more effective what you can do
21:56is you bring in your community members
21:57earlier in the the process so as you're
22:00if if you're open to show them your
22:02design show them your prototype ask them
22:04what they think and then you don't have
22:05to do it with just like three people you
22:08can post it more publicly if you have a
22:10Facebook group like post it there and
22:12then get feedback the more people feel
22:15that they're part of the building
22:17process the more they become emotionally
22:19attached to it the more the higher
22:21chances that they're going to use it
22:22after so like that's how you do it like
22:24as you're building it even if it's not
22:26yet done just like be open like buildin
22:29public show it to them and then you'll
22:33happens awesomeness um cool so I have a
22:37few people in the queue um Aram you had
22:40a two great questions you w to
22:43ask sure uh so a couple of things one uh
22:49given the uh people in the community and
22:52you would want that uh engagement
22:54amongst community members as well which
22:56means each member is trying to to add
22:58value to the community how should we
23:00think about rewarding community members
23:03uh so that's the first question uh and
23:06the second is U when we building out
23:10Community products uh from a pure design
23:14perspective is there a different way we
23:16should look at it uh because there are
23:18groups there are social networks there
23:22communities what's the difference and
23:23how should we look at it from a design
23:25perspective thank you
23:32so two questions first um the second one
23:36was how do you think about from design
23:37perspective can you restate the
23:40first oh ex how do you more about the
23:46yeah yeah um I don't know Mark do you
23:49want to chime in on those or should I go
23:50for it sure so uh one thing that you can
23:54do is think about your needs and think
23:56about how they can that can help your
23:59you your customers so the first thing
24:01that you should uh like that's my
24:03mindset of like turning turning the ask
24:05into a perks list so one you can tell
24:07them that uh if you're like like like
24:11being part of this community will allow
24:13us to help solve your problems first you
24:15can have an influence in our road map
24:18that can better H that can better uh
24:20address your problems so that's one uh
24:23and that I mean you should start there
24:24because like if you're not addressing
24:26the fundamental need then no amount of
24:28Rewards or incentive would help and then
24:30after that uh you can tell them that hey
24:33as as you're building this with us you
24:35can get uh Early Access to our uh
24:38product features you can get early
24:39access to our merchandise or whatever
24:41you're trying to do and then we can give
24:43you promotions and discounts so it goes
24:45in in different levs from the value prop
24:48from trying out the product and then to
24:49pricing or promotions uh but I'd say I I
24:53created an early access program in our
24:55current startup we try to give them a
24:57dozen perks say hey we're going to give
24:59you all of these uh the the the thing
25:03that surprised me a lot is a few of them
25:06said Mark we don't need any of these
25:08just build a product just do it right
25:10just give it to us early we're fine so I
25:13think that's the that's the thing that
25:14people tend to forget sometimes you tend
25:16to overthink the rewards and systems and
25:18that's all great but go back to that to
25:20that basic um if you're looking
25:25other efforts look ation if you have
25:28like a customer support team maybe you
25:30can offer these people who are highly
25:32active a more direct line uh to your
25:34customer customer service rep or
25:36whatever that uh that that role is in
25:39your in your company having that line
25:41between them and your team is actually a
25:43very great per that they will appreciate
25:48ideas uh Ryan you had a great question
25:51and then have a penny and and
25:54rot yeah so quick question with um
25:58engaging the community so two of the
26:01main ways that I've seen that people
26:03that the um Community managers tend to
26:06engage community members is just through
26:08different events uh so Contin
26:10continuously hosting events and or
26:12posting different articles and trying to
26:13get people to comment on on them um are
26:16there other ways of engaging the
26:18community members from what you've
26:24seen uh yeah there's a lot of ways to
26:28um they kind of can get bucketed into
26:30pretty abstract smaller numbers of
26:32things so content is what we said which
26:34can be articles it can be um you know
26:37questions things like uh you know one of
26:40the best posts that always does so well
26:41in community ask stuff is like um
26:43celebrations like sharing people's
26:45birthdays that's always like one of the
26:46highest engagement things in a lot of
26:47communities even though it's kind of a a
26:49bit remote removed from the main product
26:52or the main goal um you know engagement
26:55questions polls events
26:58um you know just I think the nice thing
27:00about Community is can be scary to some
27:02people who want to try and do it but
27:03then you also everyone has experience
27:05with it in their life so think about you
27:06know at school what what helped you with
27:09your friends what helped you is it just
27:11these events or is there other things
27:12you guys did too um that helped you
27:15engage but yeah I think content and
27:16events are definitely some of the good
27:19consider and I'll add to what Nathan
27:22said also think about not just the
27:24categories but the layers so for example
27:26in your community m MERS there will be a
27:28handful of people like very small people
27:30who are interested interested in physics
27:32right and there's a broad number of
27:34people interested in uh like like more
27:36broader categories so like if you pay
27:39attention to a few of them what you can
27:40do is you can direct message or form a
27:43smaller subgroup to say hey we notice
27:45that you're uh interested in veritasium
27:48or like one of these or Mark Rover uh
27:50videos do you want to chat about it and
27:53then you bring them together host a
27:54session and have conversation around it
27:57uh so so so that you can not you don't
27:59have to always broadcast the content in
28:03like a thousand people doing it in a
28:06more targeted way will allow these
28:09highly motivated people sharing the same
28:10interest to come together and talk talk
28:13about it and then broadcast it to other
28:14people so it doesn't have to be always
28:16you like you can like start very small
28:19uh make it a little bit bigger and then
28:20do the biggest layer which is like to
28:24everyone awesome thank you both uh Benny
28:28do you want to ask your question also
28:30thank you for joining us so late it's
28:32like midnight in Singapore right no
28:35worries um I so my question's sort of an
28:38extension of whatam hadam Ryan had as
28:40well um a part of the problem that we
28:43face is that we the community that we're
28:48explicitly part of the product that
28:51building um but then now we're at a
28:53junle where like we have teachers in the
28:55community and we're also building tools
28:57for teachers so we often think about how
29:00we can position it to make sure that
29:01we're not muddying the community or we
29:03don't make the members of the community
29:05feel like they've been tricked into
29:07giving us free feedback or or using them
29:10for things so as to say um so are there
29:14things that we should be avoiding or are
29:16there better ways of kind of maneuvering
29:18this relationship or like co-design
29:20relationship of we'll do events and
29:23we'll put out content and we care for
29:24you but then at the same time there's
29:26things that we gain from it as
29:35well okay I'll start so this is where
29:38having Community guidelines is very
29:40important and then separating groups
29:42right so for us we have a core Community
29:44where everyone's there we have sub
29:46community that we call like beta testing
29:49uh and then we have some like one or two
29:51other groups it doesn't mean that they
29:53are separate people it just means that
29:55they are in separate uh like they are in
29:58separate areas because once you have
30:00that once you put that in place then
30:02people will know how to behave uh it's
30:05harder to do it if you're using like for
30:08example again Facebook group or another
30:11social app but for example if you do
30:12slack right slack has channels so that's
30:15where uh the guidelines kick in that's
30:17where you remind them that hey this
30:19space is only for this this this uh kind
30:22of content uh if you do that you give
30:25yourself a permission to sell something
30:28or to promote something or to ask for
30:30help and you also give permission to
30:32others uh to to to behave in a Sim in a
30:34similar fashion so that's how you do
30:38it I'll add a little bit there which is
30:41uh it's so common that people get into
30:43the problem you're facing Penny um and
30:45it can be both good and bad depending on
30:48the size of your team the size of what
30:49you're doing how much time you have etc
30:51etc there's people who great these
30:53amazing industry leader communities and
30:55that's great if you have the team to
30:57but what's really important is kind of
30:59we said of coming really back to the
31:01true goal of your business and then the
31:04true vision for your community and how
31:06that ties into the goal of your business
31:08because if you don't have those two
31:09things like lock step then the anytime
31:12there's any disjoint you're not going to
31:13know how to make that decision and so
31:15like in our class we're going to be
31:16asking people to do things like
31:19articulate the value proposition of your
31:21product articulate the way that the
31:24community extends that value proposition
31:26get clear about what you want to do in
31:28the next month to try and you know take
31:31one step towards that with your
31:32community and so when you're in a place
31:34where you feeling that disjoint it could
31:36be a good time to come back to some of
31:38these basic questions and talk about
31:39them with your team and see if you guys
31:41have to make a hard call to actually
31:42start going a big different direction or
31:44what you're doing is just
31:47fine super interesting thank you Nathan
31:50and Mark Benny do you have any any
31:52followup questions or awesome uh cool uh
31:56RM had a great question that I want to
31:59plus one and I think Tom Anna arandom
32:06L yeah um yeah I just wanted to ask
32:10about U metrics and like what do you
32:13look at how do you measure your success
32:17uh and the impact on the
32:22product I I'll jump in real quick and
32:25uh there's easy and hard answers the
32:28easy answer is what people fail and
32:30struggle to do but it's most important
32:32is you tie it back to your business
32:33somehow you're reducing costs or you're
32:35increasing Revenue like those should
32:36really be the two big things you're
32:37trying to drive back to now like
32:39marketing sometimes it can be really
32:40hard to attribute that and so then you
32:42have to try and find other metrics and
32:44that's where it gets hard because we're
32:45talking about a lot of touchy feely
32:47stuff and there's a lot of vanity
32:48metrics if you're talking about social
32:50media like who cares about follower
32:53honest um so then you know one thing
32:56Mark and I talk about is things like uh
32:59you know if you're in a it really goes
33:00back to the goal then if you're not just
33:01looking at the business but a subset of
33:03the business like what a product manager
33:04had on what are we trying to do here are
33:06we trying to test a new experiment then
33:08maybe like there's a a metric around
33:09that experiment that's in between closer
33:11to some sort of like hypothesis we think
33:14that this teacher if they do X thing
33:15there going to be y results so let's see
33:17if we can find Y and then hopefully y
33:19ties back to making money or reducing
33:21costs um and yeah so I think it's that
33:24and then also Mark can probably share a
33:26little bit I thought it was really cool
33:27he kind of uses uh NPS as like a metric
33:31on some of the product testing like
33:33feedback sides when he's doing
33:34communities and that really was
33:35something I hadn't heard too much about
33:39lot yeah thanks Nathan yeah that NPS is
33:42basically um like a survey of how happy
33:44your your community members are uh uh in
33:48uh in terms of the product that you're
33:49building or whatever it is uh for us
33:52it's like if it doesn't hit a 4.0 then
33:54we need to do a better job so that's
33:57the end goal or the Northstar and then
34:00there's a framework that I want to share
34:01have you have you guys heard about cmx
34:04spaces framework who's heard of it oh
34:08you heard of it so you would know the
34:09metrics there so there's a for those of
34:13you who haven't um I'll place it on the
34:15link uh like I agree with a lot of these
34:18um especially when it comes to Quality
34:20ones so I think they talked about new
34:23members how many people attended your
34:25events how many people came back and all
34:27of those are good uh but I think there's
34:28a uh there's a PE here that I uh really
34:31like like how many people are adopting
34:34your project your your initiatives or
34:36your features how many uh content are
34:38they generating and how satisfied they
34:40are which is like similar to NPS so I I
34:43I I'd focus on those uh because I think
34:45at the end of the day ask yourself why
34:47again why do you have this community
34:49right what is the Mission Vision of it
34:50and then look at what of the Dozen
34:53metrics strongly attached or strongly
34:56tied to that one yeah I still I still
34:58wonder how to attach it to the specific
35:01uh for example uh user experience or
35:05user Journey uh like how do you know if
35:07someone in your community you know if it
35:10made them buy something just being a
35:12part of the community like how do you
35:15create these connections um technically
35:19and um yeah just like how how do you get
35:23this data basically oh you're asking
35:25tough questions here do you want to go
35:27first yeah I would I would love to jump
35:29in and say it's not a one-size fit all
35:32fits-all answer I think it really
35:34depends on your product and the stage of
35:36your company because when you're early
35:38on you don't have the resources or
35:40numbers of people to really do
35:41meaningful measurements so it kind of
35:43goes back towards the purpose of data
35:44too right A lot of times people want
35:46data to justify their own
35:48hunches and in that case you don't need
35:50quantitative data qualitative data can
35:52in those early stages that's like
35:54usually what's most valuable like in my
35:56my last company this healthc care
35:58company we would run experiments but
36:00really like the most valuable thing
36:01often was the qualitative part at first
36:03because it was small enough you get
36:04bigger and then you can do more fancy
36:06stuff but yeah I think it's like it's
36:09like um using data intelligently rather
36:13than trying to always use data because
36:15you think it'll always teach you the
36:16right thing data is always going to be a
36:18fragment of the total picture and it's
36:20equally as easy to get that fragment
36:22wrong or right and it's a lot a lot
36:23harder when you're smaller so you have
36:25to kind of make a call too if if you can
36:27collect good enough data or if you can
36:29do that qualitative stuff and that's
36:30also where Community can help you know
36:32instead of doing the onetoone feedback
36:33sessions you can start to have this
36:34ongoing dialogue in your communities
36:36about things and then as people trust
36:38you they'll actually give you their real
36:39opinions in ways they wouldn't before
36:40like in a survey where there's
36:41constantly like a false data coming in
36:43because there's just a fragment and kind
36:46of people are not doing it in the same
36:47mindset of like I want to help out this
36:49person when they're in a community it's
36:50just so hard to collect like if there's
36:52a lot of conversations happening for
36:54example if you take slack for example
36:57there's no like one overview of
36:59everything that was discussed like you
37:01can't be everywhere all the time as a
37:03community manager and there's always
37:05things happening so like how do you take
37:08this data and make something out of it
37:11so yeah on the qualitative side like I
37:13think what's helpful is to not try and
37:16collect all of it but to try and read
37:17all of it and then to collect pieces
37:20that really resonate and our themes that
37:22you see across multiple ones there's
37:23lots of like qualitative research study
37:25methods of that sort um you know if
37:28you're trying to get more quantitative
37:29then it's obviously a very different
37:30approach and like as a former data
37:32scientist I have a lot about that but
37:34yeah I see if Mark wants to chime in too
37:36before we run out and I'll share one uh
37:38Advanced metric I've always wanted to
37:40measure but never have just in case
37:41anyone's really nerdy and wants to try
37:43this and tell me about it
37:45someday cool thanks R if I if you're
37:48really looking for hard data here's like
37:50maybe two or three approach uh what we
37:52did is our Forum website we linked it to
37:55our Commerce website use Google
37:57analytics and use ref tags to measure
38:00how many people are flowing from our
38:01community forum and ended up buying
38:03something so if you really if you really
38:05want to go that route if you're looking
38:07for Instagram or Facebook they have
38:09social shopping elements you can also do
38:11the same thing follow the follow the
38:14clicks to see where it lands and then
38:17internally we made we proved to our
38:19company that look our community members
38:22using uh their like IDs that or email
38:25addresses are buying more products so it
38:29it turned from how do we like sorry uh
38:33buying a lot of products right so we
38:34look at our database to see and prove
38:36that if you're part of our community
38:39that means that you're highly engaged
38:40and there's more chances of you to buy
38:41the product so it's switch from asking
38:43the community me members to buy
38:45something to how do we get a customer
38:48into the community because we know that
38:50at some point they're going to buy more
38:52so that's that's that's the those are
38:54the elements that we did
38:57thank you thank you both super
39:00insightful questions that I'm just
39:01reading through this um SCI index it's
39:05super interesting thank you for sharing
39:07Ethan um so we have about five minutes
39:10and there were uh I believe two
39:12questions remaining one uh or three
39:15actually so we got Tom Anna and then
39:18thas so uh yeah feel free to F away
39:22Thomas Thanks um so yeah my question is
39:27uh in the 20 to 40 on your way to Z to
39:31100 uh selecting the community leaders
39:34or Community mods um you know what is
39:37the criteria for selection that that you
39:40recommend especially trying to you know
39:43make sure people are aligned with the
39:45broader vision and goals because
39:47sometimes the most vocal or most
39:50interested or people that want to
39:51volunteer aren't necessarily aligned
39:54with um you know where the company needs
40:08Nathan thank you picking the r leaders
40:10is hard when you're hiring and it's hard
40:12when you're building these Community
40:13programs but it's a similar process of a
40:15mix of intuition a mix of criteria that
40:18matters to you like you said you
40:19actually answered your own question
40:21right like align to your product not
40:23loud like people who listen more than
40:25they talk like you can kind of decide
40:26for yourself what matters for your your
40:28values and your brand um then it's a
40:31matter of figuring out why they want to
40:33do it getting deeper into what's going
40:35to be in it for them and how do you then
40:37design something around that and so um
40:40and then also there like one great thing
40:41about communities you have like some
40:42testing room so you can kind of like
40:44like for example I've run some programs
40:46where we'll test someone for a couple
40:48weeks or we actually will Design the
40:50entire program so people are kind of
40:52being tested as we like we had this
40:54program at Google where you answering
40:56questions and as we saw your question
40:58answers over time we were able to then
41:00assess both the metrics qu
41:02quantitatively what was happening and
41:03then we do some manual reviews are you
41:06like kind of hacking around getting the
41:07right answer are you giving like you
41:09know thoughtful response responses are
41:11you um following up on people are you
41:13just trying to game different numbers
41:15that you know we care about to try and
41:17get into this program and so it's like
41:19uh kind of the motivation side plus the
41:22you can test plus um just like anyone
41:25you'd hire like really
41:26trying to match your own values as a
41:29company um and plus figuring out yeah
41:31their own yeah like kind of the title or
41:35them I think I said four things but I
41:38three thanan um an you had one question
41:43and we have like two minutes so my
41:46goodness that's a such a stressful um so
41:50my question is just um I guess how do
41:52you um monitor or how do you face out
41:55how do you you know uh how do you deal
41:57with like Bad actors um and um I guess
42:01like this s the face of like oh even if
42:04you vetted someone and someone uh
42:06another Community member is reporting um
42:08someone doing I guess like inappropriate
42:11behaviors or in a sense that they
42:13publicly post something and how do you
42:15make sure that you know you're you're
42:18delving in and solving the problem and
42:20not offending someone
42:23else maybe I can start so
42:26for context I work with a team of like
42:29four Community managers in my in my
42:31group uh so what we do is we first you
42:34you first have to call it out uh
42:36publicly that uh this is not this is not
42:40consistent with the community guideline
42:42and then talk to the person privately to
42:44have a more thorough discussion
42:45depending of whether like how severe the
42:47violation is uh if it's something that
42:50is like more around profanity or
42:53something that is highly offensive then
42:55you immediately take take it down uh in
42:57order to make that more effective you
42:59have to have a group of moderators that
43:01will help you so on top of the each
43:04individual Community managers handling
43:06different channels we have maybe five or
43:08six mods that will look at that so that
43:11they can take it off immediately uh and
43:13then after that post you uh sometimes
43:15you have to explain to the group what
43:17happened to the post so make sure that
43:18you think about not just a person
43:20thinking it down uh but everyone else in
43:22that group who potentially have seen
43:24that uh within the few minutes or for a
43:29time awesome and uh very last minute but
43:33uh Tomas asked about the number one
43:36newsletter and books uh that you
43:38recommend for all things
43:45Nathan uh Evan Hamilton has a great
43:48Community manager is breus newsletter
43:50I've been a big fan of for a decade I
43:53think too long um there's a lot of
43:56different kinds of communities too so
43:58like it can kind of vary uh cmx hub's a
44:00good one um Community maturity the
44:02company that does that Community Round
44:04Table it does that model I shared
44:05they're pretty good uh there's a lot of
44:08new emerging stuff too with web 3 things
44:09I don't know if you guys are tracking
44:10that but there's a lot in that space too
44:12that people are writing in interesting
44:14newsletters awesome cool well we're at
44:17time um I'm gonna drop the link to the
44:20course that Mark and and Nathan are
44:22running um on Maven and yeah Mark Nathan
44:27thank you so much for being here is
44:28there anything else you wanna you wanted
44:33we we we'll leave any kind of any calls
44:38action no this is fun thanks for having
44:41us here feel free to reach out directly
44:43if you have questions thank you for all
44:45the good questions these aren't easy cut
44:47and dry subjects I think we probably can
44:49spend as much time learning from you as
44:50we were sharing as well so yeah that's
44:52my I thought is next time we should get
44:53more people to also share everything
44:55that they're do doing we probably have a
44:57lot more answers than just us two us two
45:00here yeah thank you both and I think so
45:03we have a closing ritual for all of our
45:04calls speaking of you know the commun
45:06the importance of rituals in community
45:09uh we have a closing ritual called go
45:11team so we uh unmute ourselves if we can
45:14uh we put our hands in the middle and
45:16then we count to three and say go team
45:18so if you can please join me uh so I'll
45:22count them to to one three two one go
45:28thanks everybody have a
45:30great thank you Mark thank you so much
45:33Mark Nathan thank you thank you
