The Coffee Expert: The Surprising Link Between Coffee & Your Mental Health! James Hoffmann
The Diary Of A CEO2023-11-20
The Diary Of A CEO#steven bartlett steve bartlett#podcast#the diary of a CEO podcast#life lessons#CEO
2M views|8 months ago
💫 Short Summary
The video explores the world of coffee, its global significance, health benefits, and cultural impact. It delves into the complexities of coffee consumption, caffeine effects, and the evolution of specialty coffee. Various topics such as coffee production, taste testing, the rise of independent shops, and the importance of quality over quantity are discussed. The speaker shares personal experiences, business ventures, and offers advice on creating the perfect cup of coffee at home. The video emphasizes the need for mindful consumption, sustainability, and the continuous exploration of diverse coffee experiences for heightened enjoyment.
✨ Highlights
📊 Transcript
✦
James Hoffman shares his passion for coffee and its global significance.
02:14Hoffman fell in love with coffee 20 years ago and is dedicated to learning about it.
Coffee encompasses botany, science, and health, with surprising potential to exceed expectations.
Hoffman emphasizes the satisfying moments coffee can provide.
Viewers are encouraged to subscribe to support the channel's growth and expect improved content quality.
✦
The changing perception of coffee and its impact on health and well-being.
03:45Specialty coffee has transformed the way people view coffee from a normal commodity to a unique experience.
Coffee consumption is debated between addiction and dependency, with concerns about withdrawal symptoms.
Caution is advised in consuming excessive caffeine for better sleep quality and overall health.
Cultural attitudes towards sleep are evolving, recognizing its importance for overall well-being.
✦
Effects of Caffeine on Sleep and Cognitive Function.
07:26Caffeine consumption can lead to poor quality sleep and the need for more caffeine due to its lingering effects.
Genetic tests can determine an individual's caffeine metabolization rate, impacting how late in the day caffeine should be consumed.
Mindful consumption of coffee is important due to variability in caffeine content, and habitual use can diminish cognitive benefits.
Taking breaks from coffee can help maximize its effects on cognitive function.
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Discussion on coffee consumption and its effects.
10:46Emphasis on potential risks of excessive coffee consumption and societal dependency on caffeine.
Acknowledgment of health benefits of coffee, including positive impact on longevity, cognitive decline, liver function, and cancer.
Recommendation to limit coffee consumption to avoid interference with sleep quality.
Suggestion to switch to decaf as a viable option.
✦
Health benefits of coffee consumption.
13:20Coffee consumption can improve gut microbiome and extend lifespan.
Studies show a reduction in all-cause mortality for coffee drinkers, with three cups a day being associated with positive outcomes.
The definition of a 'cup' varies greatly among studies, causing confusion.
Coffee is considered a good source of fiber and polyphenols, contributing to a diverse diet.
✦
Health benefits of coffee consumption.
16:48Coffee may provide fiber that is lacking in many diets.
Mixed results on caffeine's impact on mental health, with some studies suggesting benefits and others recommending cutting it out for anxiety or depression.
Research on coffee and cancer risk varies, but many meta-studies suggest a lower incidence of cancer among coffee drinkers.
The effects of coffee on health are complex and individual, with no strong mechanisms identified, so potential benefits or risks should be considered on a case-by-case basis.
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Evolving perception of caffeine consumption and comparison to cigarette consumption.
19:12Shift towards focusing on caffeine itself rather than coffee as a whole.
Prediction of changing attitudes towards caffeine in the future.
Highlighting the emergence of a decaf movement and frustrations over the lack of quality in decaf products.
Emphasis on potential benefits of decaf consumption for health and taste, as well as the association between coffee consumption and reduced cognitive decline.
✦
Dr. Daniel Amen warns about the impact of coffee on the brain.
21:55Coffee reduces blood flow in the brain, contrary to popular belief.
Caffeine blocks adenosine receptors, preventing calming effects and leading to a crash when the body clears caffeine.
Delaying caffeine consumption in the morning can help reduce this crash.
Some products combine caffeine with alanine to reduce jitters and promote calmness, but dosage is crucial.
✦
The segment explores the consumption of caffeine and its consequences.
24:33Filter coffee can contain 300 milligrams of caffeine, with challenges in reaching lethal doses.
Coffee originated as a fruit, with caffeine serving as an insect repellent in coffee plants.
Caffeine plays a role in enhancing bee memory for pollination.
Altitude can impact the levels of caffeine in coffee plants.
✦
The speaker's passion for coffee led to an exploration of its history, flavors, and culture.
27:23Coffee production requires quality at every stage, from farming to roasting to brewing.
There is a diverse range of coffee varieties to explore for enjoyment.
Making coffee is akin to making wine, requiring care and skill for a quality end product.
✦
Understanding key aspects of coffee making is crucial for success.
30:51Different coffee roasts have different qualities and perceptions, with lighter roasts now considered better.
Smelling coffee can indicate the roast level and potential taste.
Smelling different scents can help reset your sense of smell.
Experimenting with scents can alter perceptions of familiar smells.
✦
Comparison of different commercial coffees based on taste, bitterness, acidity, and quality of raw materials.
33:43Coffee #1 is described as standard, bitter, and possibly poorly made.
Coffee #2 has more acidity, indicating higher quality, but some may find it too sour.
Both coffees have unique characteristics and aftertastes, with preferences varying between the two.
Coffee #1 is revealed to be McDonald's, meeting expectations, while Coffee #2 is perceived as having better raw materials.
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Comparative analysis of McDonald's, local coffee shop, Costa, Starbucks, and Pratt.
39:21Independent shop stood out for unique flavor, while chains had minimal taste variance.
In blind taste test, Pratt ranked first, Costa second, and Starbucks third.
Despite brand differences, root flavors were similar among the chains.
Personal preferences favored independent shop for distinct taste profile.
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Price disparity between chain and independent coffee shops.
40:22Independent shops should not price match chains due to different supply chains and margins.
Advocacy for supporting independent coffee shops for their quality and care in products.
Endorsement of LinkedIn Jobs for efficient hiring and finding passionate employees.
Introduction of Shopify as a commerce platform revolutionizing businesses worldwide.
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The speaker's diverse business ventures in the coffee industry and transition to creating YouTube videos.
43:55His businesses include a Coffee Roasting Company, distribution companies, a coffee shop, training businesses, equipment businesses, and a coffee recruitment business.
The speaker discusses how YouTube helped him connect with people and revealed the broad and deep interest people have in coffee.
People often seek advice on which coffee machine to buy, stressing the importance of considering individual needs and budget when making a purchase decision.
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Achieving great espresso at home requires dedication and investment in equipment.
46:19Prices for espresso machines range from $500 to $15,000.
Quality grinder is crucial for good coffee, more important than the espresso machine.
Filter coffee options are available for convenience.
Finding a balance between cost, effort, and quality is key for a home coffee station.
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Importance of Good Coffee Grinders
49:31Good coffee grinders have spinning discs that cut coffee to a specific size for uniformity in brewing.
Quality grinders cost more but enhance the coffee experience and are worth the investment.
The YouTuber aims to educate viewers on the value of coffee and build trust through equipment and technique reviews.
Emphasis is placed on sustainable practices due to the threat of climate change impacting coffee production.
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Challenges in Specialty Coffee Production
52:40Altitude affects coffee production, limiting growing areas for specialty coffee.
Unfair production systems harm livelihoods in the industry.
Consumers may need to pay more for quality coffee to support sustainable practices.
Coffee pod machines offer convenience but sacrifice quality and value, likened to microwave meals.
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The impact of coffee on London's society and culture.
55:15Coffee houses in London served as centers for business, politics, and education, earning the nickname 'Penny universities'.
Coffee's arrival in London resulted in increased productivity and a decrease in constant drunkenness.
London became the primary coffee-drinking city for approximately 100 years before tea became more popular.
The introduction of coffee sparked a cultural revolution and societal transformation in London, impacting various aspects of life.
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Preference for Filter Coffee Over Espresso
58:23The speaker enjoys the brewing process and flavor development of filter coffee as it cools.
He has a particular fondness for coffees from Colombia.
Adding sugar and milk to coffee can mask flavors and reduce health benefits.
Tasting coffee in its pure form is encouraged to fully appreciate its complexity and nuances.
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Benefits of Freshly Ground Coffee
01:01:56Freshly ground coffee retains its flavor and aroma better due to oxidation and degradation over time.
Investing in a coffee grinder leads to a superior coffee experience and better value for money.
The pandemic led to a rise in home coffee equipment purchases as people adjusted to not being able to visit coffee shops.
This surge in purchases highlights a strong passion for coffee among consumers.
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Global interest in specialty coffee is growing due to its promise of better quality and taste.
01:04:38Climate change poses challenges for coffee production in the future.
Despite potential price increases, focusing on quality over quantity is encouraged for an enhanced coffee experience.
Independent coffee shops in major cities like London offer unique and diverse experiences for coffee enthusiasts.
Coffee exploration is seen as an opportunity for discovery and heightened enjoyment.
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Exploring new cities through coffee shops for networking and discovering the best bars and restaurants.
01:07:13Starbucks is a reliable choice for filter coffee, offering specific brew requests.
Opting for the freshest brewed coffee is preferred over older roasts, even trying off-menu options like French press.
Paying attention to sleep is crucial for maintaining good sleep quality.
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Reflection on prioritizing future self and balancing work and personal life.
01:11:10Acknowledges sacrificing hobbies and leisure time for business pursuits.
Expresses enjoyment in the constant evolution of work and fulfillment it brings.
Recognizes the importance of investing time in health and fitness.
Commits to making changes to prioritize self-care moving forward.
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Importance of Pursuing Genuine Interests for Career Success
01:13:11Emphasizes the speaker's journey of exploring different industries before finding his passion.
Highlights the significance of creativity, empathy, and passion in one's career.
Advises against overworking and falling into the hustle culture, sharing personal experience.
Acknowledges the value of exploring different paths to discover true passion and skill sets for success.
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Importance of empathy and communication in the service industry.
01:16:15Sales experience and working in cafes/restaurants can enhance ability to read people and provide positive customer experience.
Curiosity, continuous learning, storytelling, and making great coffee are valuable skills in the industry.
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Importance of being a coffee practitioner.
01:19:51Encourages investing time and effort to truly understand and enjoy coffee for a rewarding experience.
Invitation to share a coffee tasting experience.
Recommendation for a beautifully rich book on coffee history and equipment.
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Highlights of Coffee Books and Nutritionally Complete Snack Bar.
01:22:35One book focuses on the new wave of coffee, while the other simplifies the process of making coffee at home.
The nutritionally complete snack bar by Hu is high in protein, vitamins, and minerals, with low sugar content.
Emphasis is placed on the importance of taste in nutrition bars.
Viewers are provided with a link to try out the snack bars.
00:00you're the former World barista champion
00:03so we have cups of coffee here from
00:04different suppliers so coffee number one
00:07yeah I'd be surprised if that was
00:08expensive I'd be a little bit outraged
00:10if that was
00:11expensive that's kind of weird that's
00:14really
00:15interesting if you want the best
00:17experience for coffee this one I can
00:19reveal that is James hofman the most
00:23famous people in the world when it comes
00:24to Coffee News has close to 2 million
00:26subscribers on YouTube the most popular
00:28piece of coffee bro casting on the
00:30planet you've committed a huge portion
00:33of your life to Coffee what advice have
00:35you got for me okay London has some of
00:37the best coffee shops in the world don't
00:39get an expressing machine for home
00:40coffee pods they're a microwave meal how
00:42long does it take to Decay the minute
00:44you open that bag it's on its way out
00:45and it will happen really quickly you
00:47walk into the Starbucks what you order
00:49if I'm being fully weird be fully weird
00:51fine then I'm going to say I've got 100
00:54for the Machinery coffee grinders are
00:56the right investment they are more
00:58important than the machine what what's
01:00your favorite cup of coffee if I'm
01:01honest it is I'll be addicted it's the
01:05world's most popular psychoactive drug
01:07but you look at the science coffee seems
01:09to be healthy and have a really positive
01:11impact wherever it's been measured it's
01:12a great source of fiber it is like
01:14having another vegetable in the diet
01:16people tend to perform better on
01:17cognitive tests it looks like coffee
01:19drinkers survive longer the problem with
01:21it is that coffee has this really
01:23depressing future
01:27why quick one this is really really
01:29fascinating to me on the back end of our
01:31YouTube channel it says that
01:3469.9% of you that watch this channel
01:36frequently over the lifetime of this
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02:06[Music]
02:11deal James you've committed a huge
02:14portion of your
02:16life to a drink to a bean to Coffee yeah
02:22why uh I love it it brings me intense
02:25pleasure like the whole thing I think I
02:26fell in love with it 20 years ago and uh
02:29I working in wine people get falling in
02:31love with wine right like people with
02:33the drink with the culture with where
02:34it's grown all that stuff the same can
02:37be true with coffee and turned out to be
02:38true for me and I'm uh kind of obsessed
02:42with learning and coffee is so big
02:45people see it as kind of Niche what I do
02:46is a a niche but it's this Global thing
02:48it's in every culture there's everything
02:50from botany to science to like Health
02:53all the rest of it's wrapped in this one
02:54thing so I can spend lifetimes learning
02:56about it and never be done it it it's
02:59just huge fun and it's one of those
03:00things that's capable of incredible
03:02surprise people's expectations of coffee
03:04are very low often and and when you kind
03:07of show them what it can be that's a
03:09very satisfying moment that never gets
03:11tiring cuz I just thought of coffee as a
03:13drink that everyone seems to be pretty
03:16addicted to but I imagine your
03:18perspective on on that is a little bit
03:20more um artistic and expansive I mean
03:23yes and no coffee's existence kind of
03:25blows my mind there a thing that we all
03:26do that for over a 100 years now it's
03:28been normal to have the ground up seeds
03:31of a tropical fruit plant just sitting
03:32in your cupboard and you're going to
03:33steep that in water and drink it that's
03:35a weird human thing that we do and it's
03:37just been a part of everyone's lives for
03:39as long as they can remember coffee is
03:40just there but it turns out in sort of
03:43the last 20 years we've had this boom of
03:45specialty coffee where we've kind of um
03:47showcased how interesting it can be you
03:49know it's not just this commoditized
03:50thing and I think that bit has sort of
03:53changed consumption around the world now
03:55actually I see in every country you know
03:58people's opinions and expect ation of
04:00coffee have shifted massively when I
04:02first started drinking coffee which I
04:03think I was quite late to coffee and I
04:05think I'm quite a a low-level consumer
04:08of coffee part of the reason I was put
04:11off drinking coffee was because it
04:12appears that the entirety of society are
04:14addicted to it and it might have this
04:17sort of first principal belief that
04:19anything that has a significant upside
04:20must come with a significant downside
04:22sure and and no one can tell me what the
04:24downside was so I was just very
04:26reluctant to engage in an addiction when
04:28I can see the up side I can see people
04:30are more focused they seem to be higher
04:32in energy that's the appearance I have
04:34but the the downside was never clear we
04:37are addicted aren't we do you know I
04:39don't like that word no no this you know
04:42it's um yeah it's the world's most
04:44popular psychoactive drug it is the most
04:46widely consumed psychoactive drug yes I
04:48would say it's absolutely bound itself
04:50into society now it are we addicted yeah
04:53I mean addiction is complicated and I'm
04:55not an expert on addiction I would say
04:57there's a level of dependency if you
04:59stop drinking caffeine you will suffer
05:02for 24 to 48 hours and it might be a
05:04kind of big old headache it might be
05:05something else so you know you will uh
05:08have symptoms if you stop consuming it
05:11but you can stop consuming coffee and
05:13then go for years without an urge to
05:15consume it again so I wouldn't say
05:17addiction is quite the right word for it
05:19but yeah we are I would say deeply
05:21dependent on it have you ever stopped
05:22drinking it for a prolonged period of
05:24time not for a prolonged period of time
05:25it's pretty hard for me not to uh sort
05:28of consume in doing what I do like
05:30there's just a need to taste a need to
05:33you know drink the stuff I've stopped
05:35over period I've gone sick I've gone a
05:36week or two without it but um I've
05:38changed my attitude to caffeine
05:40generally I'm I'm much more careful
05:42around it because I think it is worthy
05:45of concern the amount of caffeine you
05:47consume like I'm very Pro coffee I want
05:49people to drink and enjoy coffee but at
05:50the same time I I am very nervous to
05:53encourage caffeine consumption that
05:55might be excessive because that's
05:56definitely not good for you why sleep
05:59like ultimately anything in this world
06:01that interrupts your sleep perhaps with
06:03the exception of children is probably to
06:05be avoided right like Sleep Quality for
06:08every outcome be it you know uh body
06:10composition longevity all the rest of it
06:11like cognition uh sleep's so important
06:14and I feel like we we didn't culturally
06:16prioritize the Sleep the way we are
06:18beginning to now you know I think more
06:20and more people are talking about the
06:21importance of sleep and it's really easy
06:24to get into a cycle uh with caffeine of
06:27drinking too much coffee in the day you
06:29have poor quality sleep you're tired the
06:31next day I'll fix that with more
06:34caffeine which will give you lower
06:35quality sleep at night and that cycle
06:37can go on and on and on I think that's
06:39very that's a bad thing basically I
06:42would say that's to be avoided so I'm
06:44Pro cutting off caffeine early if you
06:46suffer with it in any way and there's
06:48enough ways to track your sleep these
06:49days I feel like everything's tracking
06:50our sleep so you can tell if you've had
06:52a bad night's sleep and if you drank
06:54coffee late maybe don't do that anymore
06:56because you know caffeine has about a 5H
06:59hour
07:00halflife so you know even 10 hours after
07:03you drank a cup of coffee there's still
07:04a decent amount floating around in your
07:06system enough that might you know delay
07:08on set of sleep or reduce the quality of
07:10your sleep isn't it Bonkers that people
07:12offer you an espresso after dinner in
07:14restaurants I don't I don't get it for
07:16some people they find it very calming
07:17and they really enjoy it they love it
07:19they have no issues sleeping I cannot
07:20touch caffeine after like 3: p.m. I have
07:23like a hard cut off and I'm done um but
07:25yeah I find the that you know there's
07:27the idea that it's a Digest a I'm not
07:30sure that's super well evidenced uh to
07:33be honest having looked into it anyway
07:35but if people enjoy it I'm not going to
07:37get in the way of it but for and some
07:39people sleep like a baby afterwards I
07:41always amazed by those people that were
07:42like yeah I have coffee I got to sleep
07:43like how how and there's big genetic
07:46differences and I think we we've started
07:47to see those and you can get genetic
07:49tests done that will give you an idea of
07:51your uh caffeine metabolizer kind of
07:53rate are you slow are you fast but um
07:56yeah it's it's it's one of those weird
07:59things things where because how coffees
08:01made can impact the quantity of caffeine
08:03in the end cup you can't accurately
08:06predict how much caffeine's in a coffee
08:08from a coffee shop right there's a bunch
08:10of variables that can happen that will
08:11produce a pretty big variance so this
08:14incredibly popular drug we don't know
08:17how much we're taking most of the time
08:19which I think is kind of wild uh and
08:22maybe not a good thing and so I'm I'm
08:25kind of pro mindful consumption of this
08:27stuff if that makes sense like uh just
08:28be aware of it and thoughtful about it
08:30and still enjoy it I want people to
08:32drink and enjoy coffee but I I want as
08:34much upside as possible as little
08:36downside use the word drug there with
08:39drugs you get a sort of Tolerance that
08:42requires you to have more and more of
08:44the thing to get to the same levels of I
08:47don't know
08:49psychoactiv is that the same with coffee
08:51where if I have one coffee today in a
08:53couple of months time I'm going to need
08:55two to get to the same level of like
08:57alertness yes and no
08:59uh it seems to be that the benefits that
09:02we see of caffeine when it comes to
09:04cognition uh Disappear With habitual
09:06usage and actually adding more doesn't
09:08change it that first coffee that feels
09:10so good is taking as sort of instead of
09:14going from zero to one it's taking us
09:16from minus one to zero it's removing the
09:18kind of withdrawal symptom almost and
09:20bringing us back to a kind of level of
09:22like okay I'm here now and so if you
09:24really really want maximum benefit from
09:26caffeine be it cognition or sports or
09:28anything else then actually having a
09:29period without coffee beforehand will
09:32give you the sort of greatest benefit
09:33afterwards so there's a habituation I
09:36guess but it doesn't escalate the way
09:38the drugs do like you you don't need to
09:39suddenly be drinking six eight 10 cups
09:41of coffee to have an effect you'll just
09:43feel weird uh so yeah a little bit
09:46though again going back to my first
09:48principles one of my first principles in
09:49life generally and this is why I often
09:51avoid medicine paracetamol you name it I
09:55will I'd rather take the headache than
09:57than start dabbling because I always
09:58think that there's a cost to something
10:00when I think about the way we live our
10:01lives in society we literally many
10:04people will have three or four cups of
10:06coffee a day some people even more some
10:08people will just drink coffee all the
10:10way through the day throughout work and
10:12then have one on their way home from
10:13work as well and I look at that
10:15objectively and go that's Insanity that
10:17this sort of the entire Western
10:19population is just like caffeinating
10:21themselves just to function and then you
10:23hear phrases like I like um oh I can't
10:26function I can't function I've not had
10:28my coffee yet mhm
10:29and I just go this is you
10:32know but I don't know enough about
10:34coffee to understand if that's just you
10:36know maybe there is a free lunch as it
10:37relates to coffee or maybe sleep is the
10:39only I think sleep's the primary concern
10:42you know if you and if you're not
10:43suffering any issues with sleep from
10:45your coffee consumption then you know if
10:47you look at the science I'm not a
10:49scientist I really I like to read the
10:51research papers but I'm not doing the
10:52research but uh on almost every front
10:56coffee seems to be healthy and have a
10:58really positive impact wherever it's
11:00been measured and across a whole range
11:02of different stuff so you know as to why
11:06caffeine's one part of it I think the
11:07fact that coffee contains a surprising
11:09amount of fiber is another one or the
11:11quantity of polyphenols in there if
11:13you're interested in the gut microbiome
11:14like coffee seems to be really good for
11:17that and I think we know more and more
11:18the microbiome you know Tim Spectre has
11:21taught us all the importance of that
11:23that it impact Us in so many different
11:25ways so on almost any front if you've
11:28researched is coffee good for you know
11:31longevity yes you see a reduction or
11:33cause mortality that correlates to
11:35Coffee consumption is it good for uh
11:37cognitive decline yes you tend to see
11:39coffee consumption associated with uh
11:41less cognitive decline in old age or
11:44liver function Cancer all of these
11:46things seem to have a positive
11:49association with coffee drinking but if
11:52it's messing with you sleep I don't
11:53think it's worth it that's just me
11:55that's the the line for me of like it's
11:57not such an incred incedible benefit
11:59that that is worth the loss of Sleep
12:02Quality mhm yeah sleep has become just
12:05the most sort of the biggest Obsession
12:07in my life over the last year I think
12:09for all of us I think it's it's just if
12:11you pay attention to this stuff you
12:13can't help but begin to obsess over it I
12:15hope healthily you know so to avoid the
12:18impact of coffee impacting on sleep you
12:20think the best thing to do is because
12:22I've just not been drinking coffee after
12:24like 1 p.m. great okay I think that's a
12:26pretty good way to go I think decaf is
12:27still a good option I think people kind
12:29of really negative about decaf because
12:31we have this caffeine first association
12:33with coffee a lot of people like why
12:34would I drink decaf what's the point you
12:37know you see a lot of death before decaf
12:38or whatever but I think decaf can be
12:40really tasty which is good like it's a
12:42nice delicious hot drink and also yeah
12:44it's a little bit less of the downside
12:46if you are concerned about caffeine I'm
12:48so I'm so compar you and Tim Spectre are
12:50the two people that have made the case I
12:52think the first time I spoke to Tim
12:53Spectre about coffee he was a little bit
12:55on the fence as to whether it was
12:57healthy or not he came back a second in
12:59time and I think there's been
13:01a little bit of a shift in him he's now
13:05Pro coffee in terms of the gut
13:07microbiome which I thought was super
13:08interesting he says it counts as one of
13:09my 30 fruit vegetables a week that I
13:12need to get which was really surprising
13:14so I helped my gut microbiome he talked
13:16about the longevity impacts as well
13:18which I thought was staggering that it
13:19can the studies seem to show that it
13:20will extend your life yeah it's a
13:23reduction and all cause mortality so
13:25you're just less likely to die early I
13:27suppose is the easiest way to think
13:28about it or that's what we see from the
13:30studies and it's not that the studies
13:31aren't without flaws but there's been a
13:33lot now and you tend to see people dying
13:36less often or less early uh when they
13:39drink more coffee not a huge amount of
13:40coffee and this is a if you ever go into
13:43the research this is really important uh
13:45a cup of coffee to you or me might look
13:47like this a cup of coffee to a
13:49researcher is 120 Ms of coffee which is
13:53about half of this so you'll see loads
13:55of studies say three cups of coffee
13:57three cups of coffee is when you see
13:59these benefits that's not a liter of
14:01coffee that's more like 3 to 400 Ms
14:04total a day of say filter coffee or one
14:07or two or three espressos single
14:08espressos so the the definition of a a
14:11cup from all these studies is really
14:13confusing and problematic and I think
14:15encourages excess coffee consumption uh
14:18but yeah three cups of coffee for heart
14:20disease for all sorts of things is is is
14:24seen to be associated with an
14:26improvement in outcome why might that be
14:30what is it about the bean the coffee
14:31bean that is causing health benefits
14:34that's probably above my pay grade I
14:36would I would probably at this point I'm
14:38probably aligned with Tim in that it's a
14:40great source of fiber and polyenals that
14:42it's just it is like having another
14:43vegetable into the diet it's more
14:45diversity of diet uh I think one study
14:47showed that for some people in the US
14:50like cups of filter coffee were their
14:52primary source of dietary fiber now
14:55that's kind of wild and not really how
14:56things should be but it is a significant
14:59source of fiber if you think about it
15:01that way you know a large cup might be
15:02three grams of fiber which doesn't seem
15:04like much until you start tracking your
15:06fiber intake and you realize oh that's a
15:07that's a a decent contribution for a
15:09drink um so yeah I think that's the
15:11biggest part of it I don't think
15:14caffeine has been shown to be
15:17neuroprotective necessarily so I think
15:18people are trying to understand the
15:20mechanism more caffeine's been studied
15:22separately and is much easier to study
15:24because you can dose it you can look at
15:26the effect of that to really do a study
15:29on coffee
15:30consumption is really hard you can't
15:32really do a randomized control trial
15:34where you raise people from say 15 to 60
15:36years old you control their diet
15:38exercise sleep and you just randomize
15:40the coffee consumption because then you
15:42might see something you could really say
15:44coffee is good or bad we can just look
15:46at these large epidemiological studies
15:48and say well trying to control for diet
15:51and exercise and cigarettes and all
15:52these other things it looks like coffee
15:54drinkers survive longer or have less
15:57issues and it might just be that healthy
15:59people are just attracted to Coffee we
16:01don't really know which which way around
16:02that is there's no strong mechanism but
16:05at this point I'd probably be aligned
16:06with with Tim on this one that I think
16:08it's primarily going to be the gut the
16:10fiber Point's super interesting because
16:11he said to me that we're like as a
16:13society extremely fiber deficient yes I
16:15think the number he said that we needed
16:17was about 20 is it grams of fiber a day
16:19I think so yeah so if coffee is giving
16:21us three or four of those grams that's
16:22almost sort of 25% of our um requirement
16:26which is pretty
16:27staggering and I never really thought of
16:29coffee as a source of fiber neither did
16:31I until he told me I it just didn't
16:33cross my mind that this you know it's
16:35it's a drink how you know it's not like
16:36a thick I lived the life of like fiber
16:39is is miserable cardboard Brown cereal
16:41that's fiber in my brain and the idea
16:43that this was fiber was inconceivable to
16:46me but you know then I read the studies
16:48and uh it was fascinating what about
16:51mental health I've always wondered you
16:52know even things like depression anxiety
16:55I've always assumed a little bit that
16:58coffee because of the caffeine is going
17:00to be bad for anxiety I would certainly
17:02say not a doctor but I would certainly
17:05say that if you someone suffers with
17:07anxiety cutting out caffeine would be
17:09something to test and to see if there's
17:10benefits to cutting caffeine out the
17:12there are a bunch of studies done on it
17:14they're not uniform in their outcome
17:16some found different results for caffine
17:18consumption and I think because you're
17:20trying to study what is ultimately quite
17:21a generic term that covers a lot of
17:23different experiences and and uh
17:25challenges that people face so yeah I I
17:27wouldn't say
17:29consume it regardless don't think about
17:30it I think if you struggle with anxiety
17:32it would be certainly be worth
17:34considering cutting it out what about
17:36depression I think the same sort of
17:38thing is true there I I think there have
17:39been studies that correlate caffeine
17:41consumption to depression I think there
17:43are people who have used it and have
17:45found benefit from it again it's one of
17:47those ones where I I just wouldn't
17:49blindly consume caffeine assuming a
17:52benefit to mental health if I have
17:53mental health challenges I think it's
17:55it's a place to check and it's pretty
17:57easy to check cut out for a month it'll
18:00suck for a few days but you know you may
18:02see benefits or you may not but another
18:05sort of complicated tenous uh link has
18:07been made towards cancer with coffee mhm
18:10most of the meta studies now seem to
18:12come down on for almost every Cancer
18:14there's a lower incident associated with
18:16coffee consumption this that again
18:18that's not Universal some Studies have
18:20found differently again they're just
18:22really hard studies to do effectively I
18:24think I think that's the challenge of it
18:26I have certainly not seen any anything
18:28that makes me uh concerned about
18:32drinking coffee uh from that perspective
18:34anyway I think there's a you know
18:36whatever impact it may have I think
18:37would be pretty minor compared to
18:39something like uh cigarettes and I you
18:41know I remember I think you said on the
18:43internet some time ago uh you think in
18:47in 10 or 20 years time people will see
18:50coffee consumption the way they see
18:51cigarette consumption yeah I did I
18:53remember saying that two years ago yeah
18:55and I and I think to some extent there's
18:57something in that I I think we are
18:58getting more thoughtful about caffeine
19:00consumption and I think caffeine is
19:01going to be the root of it all rather
19:03than coffee as a whole yeah that's what
19:04I should have said I should have said
19:05caffeine and and I think there is change
19:08and I think you know we're definitely
19:09seeing that I don't think I think
19:12there's enough health benefits in the
19:14coffee itself MH that we would benefit
19:17from keeping it around you know I don't
19:18think there's any health benefits
19:20associated with cigarette smoking but I
19:22I think coffee will have some benefits
19:23but I think our attitude and our
19:24relationship with caffeine is going to
19:26change I think you're right about that
19:27yeah that's what I was getting at I I I
19:29almost didn't dis couldn't pull apart
19:33coffee from caffeine because I'm a
19:35muggle on this subject matter but what I
19:37really mean is that addiction to this
19:38drug of caffeine and how it's like
19:40running everyone's life and we need
19:42three cups or four cups a day just to be
19:44normal and to show up to work and think
19:46straight I go Jesus Christ like as is
19:49always the case with these sort of
19:50Health revolutions we kind of go to one
19:52extreme then we go to the other there's
19:53the counter movement there'll be like
19:55the big decaf movement there's now
19:57because of neurod divers and anxiety
19:59concerns there's this jitter-free
20:01crashfree caffeine movement emerging in
20:04things like matcha and Etc so H is decaf
20:09is are you seeing a rise in people
20:11choosing decaf and the great frustration
20:14of decaf is that decaf drinkers are
20:18typically very poorly served by the
20:19coffee industry okay for a bunch of
20:21reasons coffee shop owners tend not to
20:23invest in decaf uh a lot of coffee
20:25roasting companies don't really care
20:26about decaf despite the fact that
20:28drinkers are the ones who are drinking
20:29it just for the taste they are the
20:31purest coffee consumer actually cuz they
20:33just want the flavor they don't even
20:34want the caffeine just the flavor this
20:36so you know it's always been an
20:38important thing for me over the years uh
20:41that decaf be good but yeah I'd love to
20:43see more decaf consumption going on I I
20:45I think decf can be really delicious and
20:46good if it's done properly all the way
20:48through from sort of farm to cup but
20:51it's it's not as available as it should
20:53be to most people which kind of hurts me
20:56what about um Alzheimer's randomly
20:58something I've got increasingly more
20:59interested in over the last couple of
21:01years I think from doing this podcast
21:02and speaking to health experts but it it
21:04has almost felt like this mystery
21:06disease that strikes some people for a
21:09reason that we haven't quite yet figured
21:10out perfectly healthy people can
21:12suddenly get the news that they have
21:13Alzheimer's is there a relationship from
21:15the studies that you've seen between
21:17Alzheimer's um and coffee yes and I'm
21:20going to sound like a broken record
21:22where you see once again up to about
21:24three cups of coffee a day saw an
21:25association with reduced cognitive
21:27decline in reduced incidents of
21:29Alzheimer's so it's uh again I'm not
21:33saying that coffee is causing this I'm
21:35saying in the studies the people who
21:37drank coffee had better outcomes but you
21:41can't just say because they drank coffee
21:43that's a really important disconnect in
21:45these kind of things that doesn't happen
21:46often
21:47enough I had um Dr Daniel aan on the
21:51podcast and one of his he's like a
21:53neuroscientist that scans I think he
21:55scanned a quarter of a million brains
21:56now he is one of the only people that
22:00has really expressed a concern about the
22:01impact that coffee has on the brain
22:03because he says it reduces the amount of
22:04blood flow to the brain MH and that is a
22:07net negative thing have you ever heard
22:09about that that point of view before I
22:12haven't heard much about that most of
22:14the studies I've read that looked at
22:15cognition see that kind of lift that
22:17caffeine will give you um in that you
22:19know people tend to perform better on
22:20cognitive tests after caffine than or
22:22with caffeine than without um I'm
22:25surprised in that I I had thought
22:27caffeine was a v dilator which would in
22:29theory allow more blood flow around but
22:32maybe it's not you know I haven't
22:34scanned a quarter million brains uh so
22:36I'm not an expert on this one but that's
22:38the first time I've heard someone talk
22:39about blood flow to the brain and coffee
22:41specifically you know I used to believe
22:43that coffee was basically giving me
22:45energy mhm and then it was actually
22:47Daniel Arman Dr Daniel Arman that helped
22:50me understand what's actually going on
22:52right he says it's just like blocking
22:53something yes it's it's it's stopping a
22:56compound called adenosine working in
22:57your blood and adenosine calms you down
22:59lowers your heart rate makes you feel
23:01tired and sleepy and caffeine just gets
23:03in the way of that receptor and stops it
23:05working so a lot of people experience a
23:07kind of accumulation of adenosine and so
23:10while they're consuming coffee their
23:11body is trying to put out adenosine
23:12lower the heart rate calm them down it's
23:14not working and eventually your body
23:16clears the caffeine and you have a kind
23:17of Crash afterwards where you suddenly
23:19just feel extremely tired because
23:21finally your receptors are clear to
23:23receive the amount of adenosine that's
23:24in your blood so yeah there's there's a
23:27kind of downside that way again big
23:29doses tend to come with bigger crashes
23:32you know I think a lot of people now are
23:33pushing the idea that you should delay
23:35caffeine consumption a little bit later
23:36in the day uh I think huberman is big on
23:39like no coffee for the first 90 120
23:41minutes after waking to help sort of
23:43mitigate this effect and sort of clear
23:45out everything in your bloodstream
23:47before you start inhibiting adenosine uh
23:50reception is that why people get like
23:52crashes and stuff like that because a
23:54lot of drinks that are coming to market
23:56now that are like caffeine based
23:57products are promising you that you
23:59won't get crashes and Jitters so I was
24:01wondering if there right you see a lot
24:02of people pushing alanine in there as a
24:04product which seems to have a
24:05synergistic effect and and help people
24:07feel a little calmer while sort of
24:09maintaining the benefits from that I
24:10think the evidence is reasonable on that
24:12but um again those products tend to be a
24:14bit more sort of thoughtful about the
24:16amount of caffeine in them and and I
24:17think the amount of caffeine is really
24:19kind of key you know um you might have
24:22something with say 100 milligrams of
24:23caffeine that's a that's a pretty
24:24acceptable dose you might find that in a
24:26single espresso or say a small cup of
24:28filter coffee if you take a pre-workout
24:31that's often 300 milligrams of caffeine
24:33and so there's all these ways that we
24:34can consume caffeine quite easily
24:36Coca-Cola is pretty low I think like 50
24:3860 milligrams of caffeine in a can or a
24:40bottle of Coca-Cola but you can easily
24:43end up drinking 200 250 milligrams in
24:46coffee as well if it's a uh lower
24:48quality coffee it tends to have more
24:50caffeine in it if it's brewed it's a
24:51sort of very strong filter coffee it's
24:53just knowing how much you're taking that
24:55I think is kind of key and why why does
24:58that matter is that again about sleep or
25:00is it just because if you take huge
25:02doses then there'll be significant
25:04consequences like crashes and stuff like
25:05that yeah I think it's the more you dose
25:08the longer it's going to take to clear
25:09from your system the more that will be
25:10in your blood come time to go to sleep
25:12you know I think the the lethal dose of
25:14of caffeine is really pretty high a few
25:16people have got there sadly but it's
25:18it's it's a huge amount of coffee it's
25:20usually done with like pills or other
25:21sort of forms of caffeine consumption to
25:23do it with just cups of coffee is like I
25:25think 50 or 60 cups of coffee in a very
25:27time frame a very strong coffee would be
25:29about what what was necessary for a
25:31small person to hit sort of caffeine
25:33toxicity so it's quite hard to do and
25:35you die have a cardiovascular issue or I
25:38think it's more unpleasant than that as
25:40I recall yeah I think it's a sort of
25:42neurological thing as well it's not I
25:43don't think it's a good death if I'm
25:45honest um not that you know maybe there
25:47are good ones but yeah I don't think
25:48it's a good way to
25:49go coffee was originally a snack kind of
25:53kind of yeah the coffee fruit was so uh
25:57it's kind of most people don't think of
25:58coffee as fruit and coffee fruit grows
26:00on these trees they're usually about 2
26:01met tall full of these sort of ripe red
26:04cherry looking things we call them
26:06coffee cherries they're about the size
26:07of a grape but inside there's these two
26:09seeds kind of like a peanut facing each
26:11other and they take up most of the fruit
26:13uh so if you eat them they're not very
26:15satisfying they're mostly seed bit of
26:16skin and a little bit of kind of fruit
26:18flesh for want of a better term on the
26:20inside but it is delicious it's kind of
26:22like a Tangy watermelon taste coffee
26:24fruits very delicious I recommend if you
26:25can try it definitely try it um caffeine
26:28exists in coffee primarily as an insect
26:32repellent that's why the plant produces
26:34it so that if an insect attacks the
26:36fruit it gets a whack of caffeine and
26:38it's like nope and it leaves the fruit
26:39alone so that's its function in nature
26:42other plants produce caffeine there's
26:43some interesting stuff about how uh
26:45caffeine improves the memory of bees
26:47which helps with pollination as kind of
26:49so some flowers produce caffeine uh and
26:52they think for that reason but the the
26:54caffeine in fruit in coffee trees
26:56specifically is basically insect rep
26:57which is why the higher you grow coffee
27:00the less insects there are and actually
27:01the lower the levels of caffeine you
27:02tenden see the plant
27:04produce you became
27:06a competitive coffee I don't know what
27:09do you call it do you call it a player
27:10Barista Barista you became a competitive
27:12coffee Barista when you were what 25
27:14years old yeah about that yeah and then
27:16by 27 you named the world Brea Champion
27:19yes I I I think I went hard uh you know
27:23a couple things yeah well I really fell
27:25in love with it you know what I mean
27:26like like I got into coffee at like 23 I
27:28didn't like coffee didn't drink coffee
27:30and then I wrot a book uh called The
27:32Devil's cup that just this book yeah
27:34yeah yeah and it's a fun book it's it's
27:36I don't know how well it's aged but it's
27:37just travel writing so he traces the
27:39route that coffee took from Ethiopia to
27:41Yemen through kind of uh turkey into the
27:43Mediterranean how it's spread around the
27:45world and what got me about that book
27:47was like coffee is in every culture and
27:49it's different Italian espresso culture
27:50is totally different to Scandinavian
27:52Coffee Culture totally different to
27:54Australian Coffee Culture or you know
27:56what Coffee Culture is in the us I was
27:58like well this drink is kind of
27:58interesting like it's a part of every
28:00society now and then I started to drink
28:02it I fell in love with it and I just
28:04went deeper and deeper and deeper and um
28:07yeah in 2007 I won the World withth
28:09Championships so if you're the former
28:13World barista champion yeah and I am a
28:16muggle which I am on coffee and many
28:20things what do I need to know what are
28:22the like the biggest myths and
28:23misconceptions about the drink of coffee
28:25that someone like me should be aware of
28:27of I'm trying to have better coffee I'm
28:29not you know I'm not I'm never going to
28:31be like a coffee snob but I'm I want to
28:35make I want nicer coffees that are good
28:37for me that are healthy um and that
28:40taste great what do I need to know what
28:43are the misconceptions there's there's
28:45probably less misconceptions now than
28:47ever I would say like the I think more
28:49people are coming round to the idea that
28:52coffee is not just a bitter painful
28:54experience that you go through to get
28:56the caffeine on the other side side like
28:57it's a little trial each morning that we
28:59come to enjoy I think people Now
29:01understand more and more that there is
29:03an astonishing sort of range of flavor
29:05in
29:06coffee 20 years ago there wasn't 40
29:09years ago there was no diversity of
29:11flavor in coffee coffee was brown and
29:13mean and miserable and that was it and
29:15now you can have coffees that taste kind
29:17of fruity and floral you can have
29:19coffees that taste earthy and rich or
29:20chocolatey or whatever else like so I I
29:23think the thing that I want to kind of
29:24get out into the world is whatever you
29:25enjoy I'm pretty sure there's something
29:27could enjoy more because there's so much
29:29out there there's so much diversity
29:30that's the first thing I think the the
29:33second
29:34thing that I think people do understand
29:36is
29:37that you know coffee's kind of made
29:39three times in a weird sort of way
29:41coffee is made at the farm level and we
29:42would understand that with wine like a
29:44grower grows the grapes they make the
29:45wine at that point and the producer of
29:47raw coffee carefully grows fruit
29:50harvests the seeds processes them
29:52carefully and you can do a good job
29:53there or a bad job and you've kind of
29:55got a peak quality moment there coffee
29:57is made again when you roast it it's
29:59transformed completely from a kind of
30:00green plant smelling thing into one of
30:03the most aromatic things in the world
30:06and then it's made again when you make
30:07it and at each of these stages you can
30:09lose the quality completely you can do a
30:11terrible job roasting it make it taste
30:13awful and you can do a terrible job
30:14Brewing it and make it taste awful and I
30:17think for a lot of people coffee making
30:19was not particularly a skill coffee
30:21making was not complex or hard and it
30:22shouldn't be complex but it it's easy to
30:25get wrong and I think you can be dis
30:27appointed by a coffee that you've made
30:29without really understanding why and a
30:31lot of what I'm interested in is like
30:33okay you don't need to understand
30:34everything about this process you need
30:36to work out what are the most important
30:37things to understand and get those right
30:39and then you're most of the way there I
30:42don't think the the kind of average
30:43consumer is necessarily uninformed or
30:46confused but potentially overwhelmed by
30:48choice still well I I see a variance in
30:51the price so I assume there must be a
30:53variance in what I'm putting in my mouth
30:55or and I'm not sure what's marketing and
30:58what's you know quality yeah um I've
31:01brought five different cups of coffee
31:04yes from five local shops Outlets Etc
31:10and I'm going to I don't know which ones
31:13are which so my team got me these five
31:14cups of coffee Jack is just bringing
31:15them in now so we have five different
31:19cups of coffee here from five different
31:21suppliers you're smelling them all when
31:22you're smelling them is there anything
31:24you're noticing just from smelling them
31:26yeah like um
31:27so one of the things I can assess pretty
31:29quickly is how Darkly the coffee has
31:30been roasted when you have uh the longer
31:32you leave coffee in a roasting machine
31:34the darker the color of the beans will
31:35be and for a long time I think people
31:37Associated darker roasts with with
31:38better coffee Oiler beans looked kind of
31:40fancier whereas it's swung the other way
31:42and lighter roasts now are considered
31:44better or more expensive because they
31:46kind of preserve more of the inherent
31:48qualities of the raw materials um so
31:50these are all reasonably dark roasts
31:52just from smell so I can kind of the
31:54smells I'm coming off there are more in
31:56the kind of heavy uh not burnt smells
31:59well some of them actually smell a
32:00little bit burnt and kind of uh harsh
32:03but U nothing's particularly fruity or
32:05floral smelling so it's just for me a
32:08kind of gauge of where things are going
32:09to be so there's going to be an
32:10expectation with that of bitterness in
32:12in perfume shops they give us sometimes
32:14coffee beans to smell to kind of try and
32:16wash out our nasal senses I guess does
32:19that work yeah it totally does we we we
32:22are it's why dogs sniff really fast that
32:24you're looking for change your sense of
32:25smell Works quite well on change
32:28uh and so yes you will get what's called
32:30suppression if you smell the same kind
32:31of smells over and over they become less
32:33and less intense it's why people end up
32:35wearing too much of the same perfume
32:36they've worn for 20 years because they
32:37can't literally can't smell it anymore
32:39we can they can't and it's also
32:42evidenced when you go for a run and then
32:44because you can smell yourself you have
32:47to ask your friend if you smell so Dave
32:50do I stink yeah cuz your brain your nose
32:52I guess is habituated to them there's a
32:54good hack if you ever want to break
32:55apart how like something like Coca-Cola
32:57smells if you take a component smell of
32:59Coca-Cola like lime right cuz Coke just
33:02tastes Coke to people but it's actually
33:03lime naroli cinnamon orange nutmeg and
33:06if you smell a bunch of cinnamon and
33:07then smell Coke it smells weird because
33:09you've deleted cinnamon from Coca-Cola's
33:11FL like Aroma profile and you can do
33:13that with say lime and smell and it's
33:15like whoa I've thrown the balance out by
33:17kind of deleting that and suppressing
33:19that it's a dull but fun kind of trick
33:21the interesting thing with talking about
33:22Coca-Cola there is I remember those Coke
33:24and Pepsi studies from back in the day
33:26where people would rate Pepsi as tasting
33:29better unless they had it in a Coke can
33:32so when they could see the brand of the
33:35Coca-Cola they rated it better but when
33:37they could see it in a plastic cup they
33:39rated Pepsi better and I wonder here as
33:41well because you you don't know what
33:43these coffees are you don't know what
33:44brands they are neither do I yeah um
33:48what the results are going to be so
33:49coffee number one yes have a taste and a
33:55smell
33:58so that's a to me a pretty standard kind
34:01of commercial coffee taste there's not a
34:04lot going on there relatively high in
34:06bitterness to me I say that's a fairly
34:08bitter cup of coffee um and that's
34:11coming I would say mostly from roast and
34:13if something's good or bad it can be bad
34:15because it wasn't made that well that
34:16day it could be bad because it was not
34:18great raw materials and finding why is
34:20sometimes tricky I wouldn't say it's
34:22particularly expensive cup of coffee no
34:24it didn't taste it patol station coffee
34:27you can say that I like that I you can
34:29say yeah I'm gonna just lead you into
34:30saying terrible things and I'll say
34:32nothing yeah yeah that's it tasted like
34:33it came out of like a um vending machine
34:35or something to me yeah I'd be surprised
34:36if that was expensive I'd be a little
34:38bit outraged if that was expensive what
34:40would you rate that one out of
34:42five let's do
34:4410 um for me and what coffee can be I'd
34:48say that's like a two I would say that
34:50was
34:51a five out of 10 yeah think I think it's
34:55kind of fair I probably should be fair
34:56and call it a four out of 10 cuz I've
34:57tasted way worse than that okay let's go
34:59for number
35:03two now this one would be a little bit
35:05more divisive for a lot of people
35:06because it's got a little bit more
35:07acidity in it it's like a little bit re
35:09describe salmonis almost like it's a
35:11little zingy tasting generally acidity
35:13is is associated with quality in coffee
35:15which is a real sticking point for a lot
35:17of people it's down to the fact that
35:19when you grow coffee the higher you grow
35:21it the slower it grows the the sweeter
35:23it will ultimately be but you do get
35:25more acidity in higher coffees some
35:28people don't want that in their coffee
35:29they really don't want sour coffee so
35:32that tastes like it's got better raw
35:33materials in there for me than this one
35:36roast a little bit lighter bruise a
35:37little bit better I'd like it to be a
35:39less kind of sour thing it's a little
35:41bit old obviously it's sat around for a
35:42while but I would say it's a for me it's
35:44a better cup than this one like it's got
35:47a little it's got a little
35:48characteristic to it like it tastes of
35:50something that's a little bit fruity in
35:51there yeah it's got a per more of a
35:53personality hasn't it the aftertaste is
35:54a little bit something going on there
35:56mhm M and what' you rate that out of out
35:58of 10 in your preference there's things
36:01I'd like to change about it so like six
36:03seven somewhere there like um but it has
36:06I think better raw materials in it that
36:08that does appeal to
36:09me okay I'm going to say six as well
36:12okay I can reveal
36:18M that number one yes was MacDonald's
36:23coffee that's not surprising that that's
36:26kind of what I would have expecting
36:27McDonald's to taste like and it was that
36:30cup of coffee cost us
36:32£130 so probably the cheapest thing here
36:35feel like McDonald's are aiming at the
36:37kind of Cheaper end okay your assessment
36:38there was probably fair you did
36:39originally give it a two out of 10 I I
36:43feel not bad about that but it's fine
36:44there you go so um number two you talked
36:48about there being sort of a bitterness
36:50to it and an little bit more acidity in
36:52this tastes like the raw materials are
36:55of a higher quality quity certainly the
36:57number
36:58one that is an independent local coffee
37:01shop Y and that cup of coffee is double
37:05the price of the McDonald's one at
37:07about3 per cup let's move on to number
37:11three
37:15okay very different
37:18taste for me it's more akin to number
37:21one than anything else like it's again
37:22it's a darker roast it's got a bit more
37:24body to it feels a bit Fuller bit little
37:26bit richer bit earthy at the same time
37:28for
37:29me
37:30um it's Fuller isn't it it is a little
37:33bit Fuller and the first one was quite
37:34wry to me yeah and that's in part going
37:36to be How It's Made in part how it's
37:38roasted in part you know where it's from
37:40um price-wise I wouldn't expect it to be
37:42much more than the McDonald's if I'm
37:44honest that that tastes again like a
37:48um yeah like a a reasonbly commercial
37:51grade coffee I wouldn't say it tastes
37:53bad roast a little
37:55dark yeah it's another kind
37:58of um yeah 343 actually this is
38:01something about the there's a sort of
38:03earthiness that I don't enjoy in coffee
38:05some people really like earthy flavors I
38:06really don't and that's just a
38:07preference thing so that is Costa Coffee
38:10interesting there you go number
38:15four you're doing a swirling I can see
38:17you can do doing a real I try I like to
38:20slurp usually do a little Iration but
38:22Dan a microphone it's brutal um okay so
38:27that's um probably the darkest roast of
38:29all of them I would say it doesn't taste
38:31like the raw materials are particularly
38:33bad until I could have a guess at who
38:35that's from um but it is definitely a
38:38darker roast so more bitterness again
38:41quite full um so you know my gut says
38:44that's a sort of Starbucks style thing
38:46to me try the last one as well then
38:48before we reveal before I get into
38:54trouble that's kind of weird um
38:57it's a little bit Vegeta to me if I'm
38:58honest um it's not it's not my favorite
39:02again it's it's within the world of
39:03coffee roasting it's darker it's not as
39:05dark as this one yeah I like it probably
39:08less than this one here so I'd probably
39:10be back to like a four again so number
39:12four which was the one you gave five out
39:14of 10 is Pratt is it yeah wow and
39:19number
39:21three sorry number five yes is Starbucks
39:24is it yeah there you go so of the High
39:27Street chains then the coffee that you
39:29rated highest in our taste test yeah was
39:33Pratt yeah second was Costa and then
39:37third was Starbucks but I would say from
39:40my point of view the variance between
39:42them surprisingly small yeah uh they're
39:44not I don't think they taste
39:46particularly different to each other in
39:47a in a big way I think the independent
39:49stood out a long way from the others
39:52right it was clearly different it has a
39:54lot more flavor and character going on
39:56which is good which is what you know I I
39:58like about coffee but um you know I
40:02think the the
40:04chains the brand experience may be
40:06different but at the root there's not a
40:08huge variance in the coffee experience I
40:09agree I wouldn't really I mean there are
40:12I can taste differences but but it's not
40:14as a profound difference as the
40:16McDonald's taste and then the
40:17independent taste which was really full
40:19of Personality yep and interestingly the
40:22um the price Varian is the independent
40:24cost £3 cost is 3 20 pret's 320 and
40:28Starbucks is
40:29£360 really yeah it always blew my mind
40:32for years and years I would work with
40:34loads of like essentially startup coffee
40:36shop owners and their mindset would be
40:38oh I need to be like the same kind of
40:39price as Starbucks or maybe a little bit
40:41more and you're like what are you
40:43possibly thinking that you have the same
40:44kind of supply chain that they do that
40:46you're going to make and you know they
40:47make great margins you you're not buying
40:5020 million paper cups a week you know
40:52what I mean like nothing makes sense but
40:54people feel very tied to this idea that
40:58you know the price is set by the chains
41:00and I think that's changed now and
41:02people are more comfortable charging
41:03above that but for a long time people
41:05were terrified to charge more than the
41:06chains even if the product was
41:08noticeably better and you know a real
41:11frustration for me and and that's why
41:13I'm always going to bat for Independence
41:14because it's not like you can spend more
41:16you can get a better product by someone
41:18who cares deeply about it and and and I
41:20think it's there's a risk in going to an
41:22independent if you're traveling and you
41:23know Starbucks the model is built on I
41:26know where to Quee who to talk to where
41:28to stand after I place an order what
41:30kind of food I can get there it's very
41:32safe if I dropped you in Moscow and told
41:34you to get coffee you'd go to a chain
41:36because you know how it works and You'
41:37get it done Independence feel like a
41:39risk but the reward I think is often
41:41there for sure and there's more
41:42Independence than they're better than
41:44ever now so you know I'm I'm very Pro
41:46independent coffee shops I want to talk
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43:38Bartlet all lower case keep it to
43:40yourself and let me know how you get on
43:43you you have H quite a lot of businesses
43:46um I've read somewhere that you'd
43:47started I think 11 or 12 different
43:49companies getting on for that I think at
43:50this point now what are what are those
43:52businesses um it's a good question uh my
43:55first business uh I started back in 2008
43:57just after I won the world roast
43:58championships um which was a Coffee
44:00Roasting Company um and that still is I
44:04suppose my primary business today even
44:06if I don't run that anymore and there's
44:08amazing MD in there and uh I just sort
44:11of try not start fires and be useful
44:13where I can do uh over the years we've
44:15started other things uh distribution
44:17companies kind of importing stuff or uh
44:19we have a coffee shop we've done
44:21training businesses kind of education
44:22that kind of stuff uh equipment
44:25businesses kind of the big commercial
44:26espresso machines in there I started a a
44:29coffee coffee recruitment business uh
44:31that I ultimately sold a little while
44:33back um I'm trying to think of other
44:35I've started a magazine I've started a
44:36bunch of other stuff and then this you
44:38know getting into YouTube That's become
44:40a weird business in and of itself that I
44:42didn't plan to start but is now a kind
44:44of all consuming business with with the
44:46YouTube business you
44:47must have learned a lot about what
44:49people are interested in as it relates
44:51to coffee because you'll see you talk
44:52about certain things and people just
44:54seem to gravitate towards those subject
44:55matter
44:56what what is it that people care so much
44:58about as it relates to coffee and your
44:59audience care about that's a great
45:01question because I think coming into
45:03this I I for years and years as people
45:05did back then wrote A Blog and I wrote a
45:07Blog to sort of share information about
45:08coffee because it was great for me to
45:10learn and also there's a benefit to
45:11sharing I think if you give things come
45:13back to you in the world and then people
45:15stop reading blogs and started making
45:17videos and I think having worked in the
45:20coffee industry for 20 years we had
45:21tried to talk to people about coffee and
45:23nothing really hit and people weren't
45:25really interesting they didn't like the
45:26way we talked about it and suddenly
45:28YouTube I found a way to connect with
45:30people and it turns out we vastly
45:32underestimated how broad and how deep
45:34people's interest in coffee is yeah
45:36people care about which machine should I
45:38buy and that remains a question that I
45:40will be asked I think for the end of my
45:42days EXC me which
45:44machine no I'm genuinely want to know
45:46which machine I should buy because well
45:47I don't know it depends what your needs
45:49are like what's your budget like what do
45:50you want to spend what kind of
45:51experience do you want right like but I
45:53love an espresso and I want I like speed
45:57and I want I mean I'm like everybody I
46:00want it to be super fast and really nice
46:02so the problem with espresso
46:03specifically okay is that good espresso
46:06is a little bit tricky and it means to
46:09get really great espresso at home you
46:11kind of want to have it as a hobby and
46:13if that does not appeal to you then
46:15don't get an espresso machine for home
46:17because you will spend a ton of money
46:19and you I can get you the best machine
46:20in the world put it on your counter
46:22after a week you be like I just can't be
46:23bothered I don't want to do this
46:26and I think suddenly the £253 that the
46:29Independent Business charges you you're
46:30like oh that's great I will happily pay
46:33you to go through the pain of making
46:34espresso because it's messy it's slow
46:37it's convoluted It's Tricky it's
46:38frustrating and as a hobby really
46:40rewarding but as a way to caffeinate
46:42yourself in the morning not the best
46:44what about an Americano like a great
46:47Americano like a great filter coffee
46:49yeah there's there's definitely options
46:51there and and you can
46:52buy a machine and grinder and spend
46:56what you can get an incredible setup for
46:58like 500 bearing in mind espresso
47:00machines an incredible setup will be two
47:04three 4,000 if you're looking at that
47:06like the top end of stuff you can go all
47:07the way up to I can spend 10 10 15,000
47:10of your money if you let me Jesus uh if
47:13that's that's where the budget sort of
47:14top out in in home espresso but it's
47:16kind of at that point it's like home
47:17home audio where people just they want
47:20the best possible thing and if they have
47:21the budget that market exists I'm moving
47:23into a new house so I'm like right in
47:25the now of thinking about how to solve
47:28this morning coffee problem so I'm
47:30trying to find something I can maybe
47:32install and and the thing with me is I
47:35don't I ain't got a huge amount of time
47:36so I kind of just want an iPad I ideally
47:39I'd just speak to it and say please give
47:41me coffee and it would just come out you
47:43know yeah we're not there yet we're not
47:45there yet the coffee industry is
47:46improving and the automation side is
47:48improving by and large this sort of
47:50super automatic stuff where you just
47:51push a button and everything happens and
47:52coffee comes out there's a bunch of dull
47:55technical challenges that mean they
47:56can't make as good a coffee as you could
47:58do if you were willing to do a little
48:00bit of work I thought so and that's I'm
48:02not going to lie to you that's just the
48:03truth of it they're getting better and
48:04there are more and more solutions um and
48:07there's some great High kind of
48:10convenience uh solutions to coffee but
48:14if you want to have fresh coffee made at
48:16home and it to be as good as possible
48:18I'm going to ask you to do tiny bits of
48:19work just just pour beans in a grinder
48:22put grinder ground coffee into a little
48:23machine and push a button which machine
48:26well it depends on your aesthetic at
48:28this point then right like there's some
48:30really nice filter coffee it depends how
48:31much coffee you need like how much how
48:33much do you need in the morning I've got
48:35say I've got 1002 200 to solve this
48:37coffee problem in total in total for the
48:41Machinery okay so the bad news is is
48:45that good and bad news coffee grinders
48:48are the the right investment right uh
48:52they are more important than the machine
48:54you can give me a 20 quid filter coffee
48:56brewer from Amazon but if you give me a
48:58decent grinder I can get some pretty
48:59good coffee out of it if you give me a
49:0120b coffee grinder and a 5 grand machine
49:04I can make pretty terrible coffee
49:06average coffee at best right so the
49:08grinder how how it cuts the coffee
49:11essentially you'll often see people have
49:12little whirly blade Grinders you push it
49:14but it spins madly just smashes it to
49:16Pieces but there's no real control of
49:18the size of the pieces so some will be
49:20tiny particles other'll be big rocks
49:23really hard to evenly Brew tiny pieces
49:26the same way You' brew a massive piece
49:27of coffee and so you get a kind of
49:29bitter sour coffee as a result of it
49:31good coffee grinders have spinning discs
49:33inside that cut to a specific size so
49:35all the coffe is pretty much the same
49:36size mostly and that's much easier to
49:39work with but they cost more money
49:40because they need better Motors and
49:42nicer cutting discs and that kind of
49:43stuff not crazy amounts
49:46but yeah you're looking at like at least
49:50100 to 200b for a good grinder okay and
49:53I'd love to tell you it wasn't the case
49:54and grinders are getting it used to be
49:56like 500 for a good grinder at home it's
49:58coming down all the time uh but yeah i'
50:01would say I'd need like 150 okay maybe
50:04off you okay and then I can get you a
50:05really great grinder that should last a
50:06lifetime and make you cafe quality
50:08coffee it's not it's not you know it
50:11just couldn't do it 500 times a day the
50:13way a coffee shops one could but that's
50:15where you're going to spend money and
50:16then you could just get a simple
50:17pourover cone a little and just pour
50:20water uh onto coffee on top of a mug and
50:23life be really easy that way going back
50:25to this point though about what you've
50:26discovered about people's interest in
50:28coffee from the YouTube Journey the
50:29first thing you said there was people
50:30want to know what machines and stuff and
50:31I interrupted so please do no no I mean
50:34for for me the strategy initially was so
50:36I I my bigger umbrella goal of YouTube
50:39is that I want people to enjoy coffee
50:41more for a bunch of reasons and I want
50:43them to see it as a more valuable piece
50:44of their life so that at some point they
50:46might be willing to spend a bit more
50:47money on it that's that's the sort of
50:49Topline goal what I'm then trying to do
50:51is find them and reviews are to sort of
50:53find people someone will be like which
50:55is the best disor machine to buy they
50:56find me if I entertain them uh if I
51:00build trust with them I hope they'll
51:03keep watching and then I can take them
51:04on a journey uh into coffee and I can
51:07open up new kind of avenues of
51:09exploration for them that's the kind of
51:10goal that's what I'm trying to do so in
51:12part we do that through machiner reviews
51:14and Equipment reviews in part through
51:16kind of techniques if youve got a French
51:18press cfer what is the best way to use
51:20that I want to be there to help you do
51:21that but it's it's a lot of it's about
51:23building trust so that down the line
51:25we can go and talk about something
51:27totally different and you'll listen and
51:29you'll trust me and and that sort of
51:30trust is super important to me in in
51:33terms of like building an audience um
51:35because coffee has this really
51:36depressing future uh climate change is
51:40bad for coffee really really bad and to
51:43some extent maybe we don't deserve to
51:44have coffee after we've ruined the
51:46planet I'd hear that argument but as
51:49temperatures increase around the world
51:51coffee needs cooler temperatures to grow
51:54and the only way you can get cooler
51:55temperatures as the world heats up is to
51:57go higher up the mountain it's already
51:58Mountain grown it's already growing at,
52:001500 M 2,000 M the problem with
52:03mountains is that the higher you go
52:04there's generally less of the mountain
52:06you know I mean there's less area around
52:08the world that can grow specialty coffee
52:10grow great quality coffee so the future
52:13is there'll be less great coffee in the
52:15future cheap coffee will be around for a
52:17while it doesn't need the same kind of
52:19conditions but great coffee has a
52:21difficult future ahead of it and there
52:24are millions of people whose livelihoods
52:26depend on that and and that's it's not a
52:29great system so to speak it's like
52:31there's a lot of problems with how
52:31coffee production uh is incredibly
52:34unfair towards the people who produce it
52:37but if we are to remain customers we
52:38need to be comfortable spending a little
52:40bit more on coffee in the future and if
52:42you enjoy coffee spending an extra pound
52:44a bag two pounds a bag if you really
52:46enjoy it fine no problem at all you know
52:49what I mean I will keep coffee as a part
52:51of my life but but uh that that's kind
52:54of one of the motivating factors for me
52:55I want more people to enjoy it just cuz
52:57I like bringing pleasure to people like
52:59w that's great you know what I mean but
53:02in the future I I want coffee consumers
53:04to still be there through the challenges
53:06that coffee production faces what about
53:09these pods the coffee pod machines that
53:12a lot of people are um using and that
53:14are getting more and more popular wake
53:15up in the morning grab the Pod whack it
53:17in there boom hit button drink out comes
53:20coffee yeah um the best analogy I can
53:23make is the they're a microwave meal
53:25and microwave meals are what they are
53:28they are over quality they are super
53:30convenient there's a fair amount of
53:32waste attached to them and um you could
53:35probably do better with a little bit of
53:37effort and it would cost you less do you
53:39do you use those pods not really not the
53:42like there are some and there that are
53:44kind of separate and different I don't
53:46want to get into right now um I think a
53:49lot of the sort of small espresso kind
53:51of style capsule ones are very popular I
53:54just wish they were a bit more more
53:55recyclable there's a bit of waste
53:56associated with those but ultimately
53:58they're very expensive actually for what
54:00you're you're paying a lot of money for
54:03that and you're paying for the
54:04convenience I think that for the same
54:06price per kilo you could buy some of the
54:08best coffees in the world for what
54:09you're spending on a capsule because you
54:11you're spending money for five grams of
54:13coffee because that's what it is uh but
54:16the convenience is is very strong and
54:18it's been so success I can't argue with
54:19convenience we love a little
54:21convenience but the possibility of of
54:24quality
54:25is far greater once you move Beyond
54:27those you know what I mean like anytime
54:29we go convenience we have to sacrifice
54:31something and it's usually quality and
54:34it's usually value ultimately we're
54:36going to pay more for that convenience
54:39so I get it I get not wanting to make
54:41espresso but wanting something like
54:43espresso in the mornings they've really
54:45succeeded in sort of filling that market
54:48but they are to me still a kind of
54:50microwave meal is there any culture that
54:53doesn't drink coffee
54:55no everyone drinks everyone drinks
54:57coffee people have tried to ban it a few
54:59times it was seen as a kind of seditious
55:01drink that kind of uh sort from a
55:03political perspective they tried to ban
55:04it here in the UK briefly I think King
55:07James I want to say tried to ban it
55:08doesn't last very long we tend to get
55:10pretty grumpy if you try and ban it uh
55:12it had a sort of they asked the pope to
55:14ban it at one point and he was like no
55:15it's great and so he he didn't do that
55:17that was hundreds of years ago but yeah
55:19coffee was often linked to uh politics
55:23in the early days so London was the
55:26greatest coffee drinking city in the
55:27world for a while from 16 late 1600s
55:32coffee just comes here to the city of
55:34London and takes over because up until
55:36that point we were drinking a lot of
55:38weak beer that was the sort of safe uh
55:41high calorie high B vitamin kind of
55:43drink that we drunk and we were all a
55:45little bit drunk most of the time from
55:46drinking a couple liters or three liters
55:48of weak Beer a Day coffee arrives and
55:51it's this safe drink that is totally the
55:53opposite to beer it is stimulating and
55:56it transforms London Society over the
55:58time and uh we get obsessed with it
56:00coffee houses appear everywhere there is
56:03the story that in the square mile in the
56:05early 1700s there were 2,000 coffee
56:07shops now that's that's excessive it
56:08wasn't that many it was probably but it
56:10was several hundred like they were
56:12everywhere and they quickly Diversified
56:15and sort of specialized into specific
56:17things and so uh very famously Lloyds of
56:19London the insurance broker started as a
56:22coffee shop called Lloyds of London and
56:24people did business at the tables those
56:26became offices and to this day runners
56:28in there are still called waiters and
56:30and so that just happened to specialize
56:32in shipping insurance that coffee house
56:34others specialized in politics others
56:37specialized in literature they became
56:39known as Penny universities because you
56:41could pay a penny to get into a London
56:42coffee house and you would gain the
56:43education just from listening to people
56:45talk of a University degree and so they
56:48were these incredible places for a while
56:50uh eventually our Colonial interest
56:52shifted to tea and the coffee house went
56:55into the decline in sort of 1700s 1800s
56:58but for about a 100 years London was the
57:01most incredible coffee drinking city in
57:03the
57:04world when coffee came to the UK MH and
57:07when it came to the Western world was
57:08there productivity boom yeah 100% uh
57:12huge change in culture massive because
57:14we were no longer drunk all the time um
57:16so yeah it arrives in London I think in
57:181652 it's the first uh coffee shop
57:20that's right just near Bank Tube Station
57:22you can see a little blue plaque on the
57:23wall if you go looking for there and
57:26yeah we we absolutely fell in love with
57:27it it became a part of Industry culture
57:29politics everything like it it
57:31supercharged the nation there are people
57:33who argue that are you know we we awake
57:36from this drunken stuper and then are
57:38like well what's the rest of the world
57:39got to offer and we go and become the
57:41colonial you know horror show that we
57:43were after that and you can blame coffee
57:45for that but that's bit of a stretch but
57:47uh yeah it was a massive shift in
57:50society I I think for most of my life
57:52assumed that tea didn't have caffeine in
57:53it I don't know why I just always
57:55thought coffee caffeine I think cuz they
57:57sound similar yeah yeah yeah yeah but
57:59then I I I heard at one point that tea
58:01also has caffeine in it as well a little
58:03bit nowhere near the quantities uh of
58:05coffee but you know if you're drinking
58:0610 12 Cups of Tea a day it's probably
58:08worth paying attention to how much is in
58:10there and how you steep your tea and all
58:12that kind of stuff will have an impact
58:13on how much caffeine's in there and
58:15what's your what's your favorite cup of
58:17coffee you get mustus asked this all the
58:19time I do get ask this all the time and
58:20I still after 20 years don't have a
58:22great answer I drink a lot of filter
58:23coffee uh what is filter coffee so
58:26filter coffee is not from an espresso
58:28machine so it's going to be brewed
58:29either in a filter coffee machine or by
58:31hand you'll see a lot of people pouring
58:32water over coffee uh the drink is going
58:35to be the same kind of strength as an
58:36Americano but it's a sort of it's a it's
58:37a weaker thing I'm I'm not obsessed with
58:39espresso the same way I want a cup of
58:41black coffee because I want to take my
58:43time because as you taste a cup of
58:45coffee if it's a great cup of coffee as
58:47it cools down it's it's flavor kind of
58:49opens up and becomes really interesting
58:51and complex and so I like the idea that
58:53I can sit for 10 15 minutes and if I
58:55want to have a really enjoyable kind of
58:58Journey of flavor that for me is is the
59:00the kind of great bit about coffee yeah
59:03I'll drink an espresso sometimes if I
59:04want a little short shot of something
59:06tasty but but the idea that I can if I
59:09want have 10 15 minutes to myself to
59:11enjoy this thing and see some benefits
59:14afterwards that's a wonderful thing so I
59:16like coffees from all over the
59:18world I feel like I'm forcing myself
59:21into a a tiny space here if I could only
59:22drink coffee from one country for the
59:24rest of my life it would probably be
59:26coffees from Columbia uh they just have
59:28a real spread of flavors but some really
59:30just incredible coffees come from that
59:32part of the world but there's amazing
59:33coffee from just just about every
59:35producing country if you're within the
59:38Tropic of uh cancer and the Tropic of
59:40Capricorn that kind of belt around the
59:41earth then you can probably grow coffee
59:44above certain altitudes and almost every
59:46country that is in that band does grow
59:48coffee so there's a lot of different
59:49places that grow it um and there's going
59:52to be great coffee in all of those
59:53places and they'll be cheap low quality
59:55coffee in all those places too but yeah
59:57there's the range that the spread is
59:59massive do you pour sugar and milk into
01:00:02your coffee I don't use sugar and milk
01:00:04and I get why people do because most
01:00:07coffee benefits from sugar and milk milk
01:00:10is a very uh it has a weird Quirk it's a
01:00:12bitter blocker it inhibits bitterness so
01:00:14when you put it into a harsh bitter cup
01:00:16of coffee it does soften that we of
01:00:18course like sweet things I think uh one
01:00:20thing to note when it comes to all of
01:00:22the studies that look at coffee and is
01:00:24coffee healthy
01:00:25they'll be like yes coffee is healthy if
01:00:26you drink it black and if you putting a
01:00:29lot of cream and a lot of sugar into
01:00:30your coffee there are the health
01:00:32benefits very quickly taken away you
01:00:34know what I mean it's it's not quote
01:00:35unquote as healthy a drink for me
01:00:39putting milk or sugar into coffee kind
01:00:40of hides the flavors a little bit and so
01:00:43I I I want to taste it without I get why
01:00:45people want to put it in there I don't
01:00:46have an issue with people sweetening or
01:00:47or adding a little milk or cream but you
01:00:50kind of
01:00:52lose some of what makes coffee so
01:00:54interesting
01:00:56interesting
01:00:58in this book yes how to make the best
01:01:01coffee at home one of the points you
01:01:02make is quite surprising you say that
01:01:04once a um cuz I used to think that
01:01:07coffee was a shelf staple mhm I used to
01:01:12think you get it you can grind it you
01:01:15can put it in the cupboard and it kind
01:01:16of lasts forever yeah and it doesn't
01:01:19change you make the case that I'm wrong
01:01:21it is sadly not the case it's fresh food
01:01:23unfortunately Ely the the challenge
01:01:25coffee has is that we just can't see it
01:01:27change if I disp an apple and I leave it
01:01:30for a couple of hours you can see the
01:01:32change in it it's staling in a bunch of
01:01:34different ways when you smash coffee
01:01:36into little pieces when you grind it to
01:01:37find powder you Kickstart a bunch of
01:01:40chemistry that you can't undo and some
01:01:42of that's oxidation where oxygen
01:01:44transforms things and turns fats a
01:01:45little bit rancid over time you lose a
01:01:48bunch of the Aromas locked inside the
01:01:50bean it just gets less interesting
01:01:51tasting if you want the best experience
01:01:54for coffee cfee grinding it fresh is is
01:01:56the way to do it also grinding coffee is
01:01:58one of the like the best smells in the
01:02:00world why would you not have that as
01:02:01part of your life uh and so yeah coffee
01:02:04is fresh food and if you treat it like
01:02:06fresh food it tastes way better how long
01:02:08does it take to
01:02:09Decay it's a good question so if I had
01:02:11it in the in the cupboard you
01:02:13know once you grind
01:02:16coffee most people would easily detect a
01:02:19difference a day later and they would
01:02:21say it tasted notably worse two days
01:02:23later and so buying pre-round coffee is
01:02:26buying High convenience but the cost is
01:02:29you never got to experience how good
01:02:31that coffee was at the moment it was
01:02:32ground so if I buy it in supermarkets
01:02:34yeah it's going to taste awful compared
01:02:36to in a coffee shop yeah you get a lot
01:02:40less for your money in terms of flavor
01:02:41it will have degraded they can gas flush
01:02:43it and they'll you know pack the bags
01:02:45within gases and stuff but the minute
01:02:47you open that bag it's on its way out
01:02:50and it will happen really quickly and so
01:02:53the downside is coffee grinders cost a
01:02:55little bit of money and they take up a
01:02:56little bit of space and they're another
01:02:58step in the morning between you and
01:02:59getting your caffeine in the system I
01:03:01understand that but if you want the best
01:03:03value for money a bag of beans costs the
01:03:06same as a bag of ground coffee even
01:03:08though the ground coffee has more cost
01:03:09in terms of manufacturer but the value
01:03:13of the beans is just way higher it just
01:03:15tastes way better and so having a
01:03:17grinder lets you get better value for
01:03:18money in the coffee that you buy going
01:03:20forwards what do you think the future of
01:03:22coffee is we've talked a little bit
01:03:23about the of coffee but where where you
01:03:25think the coffee industry and public
01:03:28opinion around coffee goes from
01:03:31here you know I think we've Fallen
01:03:34pretty deeply in love with coffee in a
01:03:35different kind of way in the last few
01:03:36years I think the the
01:03:39pandemic caused a seismic shift in
01:03:42coffee consumption around the world
01:03:43people had grown used to going out to
01:03:46coffee shops drinking good quality
01:03:48coffee and and that was part of their
01:03:50lives and when the pandemic happened and
01:03:52people couldn't do that the growth grow
01:03:54in coffee equipment at home was
01:03:56astronomical this was this was something
01:03:58people wanted to invest in and were not
01:04:00willing to let go of I I wasn't really
01:04:02sure pre- pandemic he said how much
01:04:04people really love coffee I'm like well
01:04:06they like it a lot but you know maybe
01:04:08they'd let it go if it got too expensive
01:04:09but in that moment where we took it away
01:04:12people were like absolutely not coffee
01:04:14stays and and and that was really
01:04:16heartening to me and that was all over
01:04:18the world every every Market every
01:04:19country I spoke to people they saw the
01:04:21same thing huge interest in coffee at
01:04:23home so I feel good about that I feel
01:04:25like the the promise of specialty coffee
01:04:27where we where we
01:04:28said you know the promise of specialty
01:04:31coffee where we said coffee can be
01:04:32better it's a bit more expensive but it
01:04:34tastes more interesting people have
01:04:36enjoyed that and found that to be true
01:04:38so right now I feel very good about
01:04:41coffee consumption from a uh longevity
01:04:44point of view for the industry people
01:04:45want to keep drinking coffee like I said
01:04:48the The Challenge on one side remains
01:04:51coffee Productions future it's going to
01:04:54be be increasingly difficult to grow
01:04:55great quality coffee in the future with
01:04:57climate change we're already seeing the
01:04:58impact of that now and changing rainfall
01:05:01patterns all sorts of other stuff is
01:05:02making coffee harder to grow that's
01:05:04going to put the price of it up in the
01:05:05future for the high quality stuff but
01:05:07for a while I I think it will sort of
01:05:10stay I don't think we're willing to let
01:05:12go I think we are going to be paying
01:05:13more attention to caffeine in the future
01:05:15and I think that's a good thing I would
01:05:17encourage people to pay more attention
01:05:18to caffeine in the future and that may
01:05:20decrease our consumption overall and I'm
01:05:23also okay with that too I'd rather
01:05:24people spent good money on two great
01:05:26cups of coffee a day than just five
01:05:29average ones just to get them through
01:05:31like I I'm okay with lowering
01:05:32consumption and increasing the quality
01:05:34of it that works very well for me uh
01:05:37because I think it will bring more
01:05:38pleasure to people ultimately they enjoy
01:05:40the coffee they drink more it's not this
01:05:41mindless cheap thing they endlessly
01:05:43consume it's a moment of pleasure and I
01:05:45think it can be this moment of absolute
01:05:47delight and interest and pleasure if you
01:05:49were looking for your moment of pleasure
01:05:50walking through the Streets of London
01:05:52yes where would would you turn which
01:05:55shop would you go into I mean we're
01:05:57talking about coffee here when I say
01:05:58moment of pleasure just just in case you
01:06:01you thought
01:06:03no um where would you turn because I'm
01:06:06walking through London all the time and
01:06:07as a muggle I look up and I go okay all
01:06:09these logos they're all saying coffee
01:06:11where should I be should I be going for
01:06:12random independent and rolling the dice
01:06:14should I be going to a chain what's your
01:06:16POV London has some of the best
01:06:18independent coffee shops in the world
01:06:20you know like and that's true of most
01:06:21major cities now like incredible coffee
01:06:23is in is very available now if you know
01:06:25where to look and I guarantee that's the
01:06:26tricky bit knowing in advance by and
01:06:29large though there's enough written
01:06:30about on the internet if you search best
01:06:32specialty coffee in whatever city you'll
01:06:35find a great list of 20 that will be a
01:06:37good experience it might be a bit more
01:06:39expensive but it will be I think a
01:06:41better coffee experience I get I I buy
01:06:43coffee from chains when I have to I get
01:06:45that but given the choice I would love
01:06:47to go and visit an independent business
01:06:49see someone's expression you know what I
01:06:51mean someone's aesthetic someone's Vibe
01:06:52someone's experience it can be different
01:06:55and why wouldn't I want to explore
01:06:56different and new so I think it's just
01:06:58an opportunity for Discovery loads of
01:07:00like U bands that tore the world get
01:07:03obsessed with coffee because it's a
01:07:04great way to explore a city it's a great
01:07:06way to kind of find the new
01:07:08neighborhoods and just check places out
01:07:09and just have something fun and
01:07:11enjoyable in the day and I think coffee
01:07:13is a great way to explore new cities and
01:07:15you talk to people who work in great
01:07:16coffee shops they'll recommend you the
01:07:18best bars the best restaurants like that
01:07:21network is so easy to tap into there
01:07:23that it it's the the best hack if you
01:07:25throw me in a random City I'll find a
01:07:27good coffee shop and ask the question
01:07:28where should I eat the best bakery got
01:07:30to challenge for you here okay I throw
01:07:33you into a random City let's just call
01:07:35that City London Y and I put you in
01:07:38front of all of the chains yes they're
01:07:41all the same distance from your feet
01:07:43yeah which one does James walk
01:07:47towards and why really difficult
01:07:50question if I'm honest if you made me
01:07:52buy a a coffee drink I assume I have to
01:07:55buy a coffee drink right is that mu
01:07:58muffin and sparkling water and run away
01:08:00um you have to get your favorite coffee
01:08:03from one of these that's much harder cuz
01:08:05otherwise I'd go to like Starbucks and
01:08:06get like a dessert in a cup and go
01:08:08because there's you know there's enough
01:08:09sort of fat and sugar in there it's a
01:08:11good time you know what I mean like I
01:08:12can't deny there's a little bit of
01:08:13delight in little
01:08:15Frappuccino
01:08:18um well I like filter coffee and so by
01:08:20and large I would typically probably end
01:08:21up at a Starbucks cuz they're one of the
01:08:23few that do filter coffee where it's
01:08:25sort of brewed as filter coffee distinct
01:08:26and different from an Americano uh and
01:08:29sometimes you can be mean and ask them
01:08:31to make a specific coffee and they have
01:08:32to do that for you if you ask just right
01:08:35uh so that would be the The Lazy answer
01:08:37to that you walk into the Starbucks what
01:08:39you say
01:08:41uh if I'm being fully weird be fully
01:08:44weird fine then I'm going to look world
01:08:46I'm going to look at the tanks they'll
01:08:47have two tanks of like filter coffee
01:08:49prepped they'll have timers counting
01:08:51down on them which is how old they are
01:08:54because the longer filter coffeee sits
01:08:55the worse it tastes and so I'm going to
01:08:57look for the one that has the longest
01:08:58time left on the tank before they have
01:09:00to throw it away and I'm going to get a
01:09:02small cup or what is it the kind a tall
01:09:04is it who knows uh a tall cup of that
01:09:07filter coffee because it's going to be
01:09:08the freshest brewed thing that they have
01:09:10and that's my kind of answer it's a bit
01:09:12weird to start looking at timers though
01:09:13but once you notice it you'll see them
01:09:15sitting there interesting so you walk in
01:09:17you you look at the timers and then you
01:09:18make a request to have the one that's
01:09:20freshest yes cuz I would rather have say
01:09:22a darker roast enjoy as much that's
01:09:24fresher than a lighter roast that's been
01:09:26sitting around a couple hours or
01:09:27something like that I don't know what
01:09:28that kind remember what their use times
01:09:29is it might be an hour hour and a half I
01:09:31want it fresher than that so that's
01:09:33that's my thing I think in a lot of
01:09:35Starbucks if you ask them to make a
01:09:36French press for you they they still
01:09:37have to do that um so yeah there like an
01:09:40option this like an off menu option some
01:09:43have said yes over the years some have
01:09:44just been like straight no uh but that
01:09:46was a good little hack for a while but
01:09:48yeah by and large I'll get filter coffee
01:09:50from the freshest pot that they have
01:09:52what is your sleep like pretty good I
01:09:54work hard at that though like I I pay a
01:09:56lot of attention to sleep because it's
01:09:58it's important to me and it's important
01:10:00for future me and I'm trying to do a
01:10:01better job I'm old enough now that
01:10:03future me is an important thing uh in my
01:10:0520s future me was not very important to
01:10:08me I'm in my 40s I've got to think
01:10:10differently you seem like a very
01:10:12obsessive person I wouldn't say
01:10:13obsessive I would would disagree you're
01:10:16so you're so passionate is a better word
01:10:19you're starting lots of businesses you
01:10:20probably got more ideas than you have
01:10:21hours in the day comfortably you remind
01:10:23myself in that there's a cost to this
01:10:25Obsession yes what is the cost
01:10:28uh yeah I I think
01:10:31um probably like uh if you stopped me
01:10:35and said what do you do for fun I'd have
01:10:36to stop and think about that for quite a
01:10:37long time because it's a really tricky
01:10:39question of like oh wait what do I what
01:10:41do as I work and I do coffee things and
01:10:43then I sleep and then you know there's
01:10:44like whatever home life oh yeah I've
01:10:46sort of sacrificed a little bit of that
01:10:48and I don't think I have a hobby if that
01:10:49makes sense like I I I think that's
01:10:51probably not unusual in in a certain uh
01:10:54group of people but yeah I do sometimes
01:10:55think the the the kind of feeling of
01:10:58like I've got so much to do all the time
01:11:00I think a lack of space would probably
01:11:02be my loss and and I don't know what I'd
01:11:04do with it if I had time to do nothing
01:11:07but I occasionally grieve emptiness in
01:11:09the
01:11:10day as you play your your life forward
01:11:14are you mentally planning to make some
01:11:17adjustments to the way that you're
01:11:20living now as you look forward into the
01:11:22future cuz I always think I'm doing that
01:11:24I think in 5 years time or in 10 years
01:11:26time I'll do this I'll sell this thing
01:11:27and I'll just be a little bit more chill
01:11:29a little bit more chill yeah yeah I've
01:11:30been lying to myself that way for 15
01:11:32years um I would love to I think part of
01:11:36me knows that I enjoy what I do and I
01:11:38and if I sold all my businesses tomorrow
01:11:41I just start another one and and and
01:11:44that's going to happen for a while and
01:11:45maybe if I get older like it changes you
01:11:48know what I mean I'm like oh maybe I'm
01:11:49done doing this whole thing but it's
01:11:52it's it's the part of of you learns that
01:11:54these can be fun like the game is fun uh
01:11:57of making things creating things and
01:11:59then growing these things it's just fun
01:12:02so yeah I'd love to I think for me I'd
01:12:04love to just find more time for stuff
01:12:05like exercise and that kind of stuff
01:12:07investing there and you could argue and
01:12:10probably should argue that I should be
01:12:12doing that now because how is what is
01:12:14more important than health what is more
01:12:15important than health and the answer is
01:12:17nothing is more important than health so
01:12:19why am I not making the time for the
01:12:20additional cardio and making the time
01:12:22you know to get a little bit lifting a
01:12:23little bit more hit in why am I not
01:12:25making that time now there's no good
01:12:27reason well I am starting to now like
01:12:29I'm I'm resting with it enough I'm like
01:12:30fine I'm going to make my life even more
01:12:32complex squeeze my day even shorter and
01:12:35I will find the time um you know Peter
01:12:38AER has broken my brain too you know it
01:12:40happens to all of us but like um yeah I
01:12:44definitely go through the thing of like
01:12:45yeah I will do this I'll spend less time
01:12:48on this stuff I'll have more time I'll
01:12:50do yoga I'll spend you know more time on
01:12:52myself in the future but I think I know
01:12:54I love what I do I really enjoy it and
01:12:57it changes all the time and know one day
01:12:59is the same as the next and I love that
01:13:01and I can cope with that if your kids
01:13:03come to you though your two young kids
01:13:05and they say Daddy I want career advice
01:13:07yeah based on the journey that you've
01:13:10been on yourself and the path that
01:13:11you've walked when you look back at the
01:13:13sort of the key components of the
01:13:15success you've achieved in a very
01:13:17specific industry what advice would you
01:13:20give to them I think lean into the
01:13:22things that genuinely interest you
01:13:24because there's opportunities in
01:13:25everything even if it's like pen Lids or
01:13:28I don't know 100% if genuinely
01:13:30passionate about it then there's
01:13:31opportunity there coffee was not a a
01:13:35growth industry no one was proud that
01:13:37their kid worked in coffee in the early
01:13:382000s you know I mean like oh they're
01:13:40doing that before they get the next job
01:13:41in the thing or they're doing that to
01:13:43pay themselves through here to work in
01:13:45coffee was
01:13:46not like a career that was a weird thing
01:13:48to think then I loved it and I was
01:13:51encouraged in it and given opportunity
01:13:53in it it and I flourished in it and so
01:13:55for me whatever the future of work holds
01:13:57I think creativity and empathy are
01:13:59important parts of that and passion is
01:14:02another piece of it and I hope they have
01:14:03the opportunity to be passionate about
01:14:05something and you know I figure that's
01:14:07what your 20s are for right like find
01:14:08the thing you're excited about and then
01:14:11in your 30s do it do it really well uh
01:14:15don't do it stupidly like I did like I
01:14:17did I fell for the whole hustle grind
01:14:19nonsense and I worked too many hours and
01:14:20I nearly hated the thing that I loved
01:14:22cuz that's what culture was then was
01:14:24like you've got to work every hour and
01:14:26if you're not sleeping under your desk
01:14:27what are you even doing which is a lie
01:14:29and stupid and deeply unhealthy in my
01:14:31opinion but you know uh I you know that
01:14:34was when my career really took off and
01:14:37yeah I'd won this world BR Championship
01:14:39thing in my 20s but nobody cared in the
01:14:42UK nobody cared there was no no one was
01:14:45impressed by that if I was the world's
01:14:46best sandwich maker that was a career
01:14:49but coffee whatever different now but
01:14:52but you know yeah I I feel
01:14:54like I think people know that now
01:14:56there's more time to just kind of work
01:14:58out what you want to do and that's okay
01:15:00to not
01:15:01be getting stuck into the perfect thing
01:15:04right away like it's okay to mess around
01:15:06and find out what you like or what you
01:15:07don't like I did a bunch of terrible
01:15:09jobs too I worked in casinos I sold gas
01:15:11and electric door too I worked in music
01:15:13publishing and I hated all of them and
01:15:15that was great because now I know what I
01:15:16don't want to do when you think about
01:15:18particularly though your success in this
01:15:20industry cuz some people will have
01:15:22passion they won't be able to become the
01:15:25number one world Breer Champion when you
01:15:28reflect and do kind of a skills audit of
01:15:30yourself yeah what what do you pull out
01:15:32of there and go that's the reason why I
01:15:34was able to go so far in this particular
01:15:36industry I think I had a lot of practice
01:15:38at communication that's what I was going
01:15:40to one of the things I really noticed
01:15:41about you is your communication skills
01:15:43so I had dual practice one as I said I
01:15:45wrote this blog which was about
01:15:46digesting information well enough to
01:15:48explain it back to someone else and so
01:15:49that was a great process for me secondly
01:15:51I had a weird job where I was training
01:15:54uh I was kind of national training
01:15:55manager for an espresso machine company
01:15:57and in the back of my car had a
01:15:58commercial machine projector screen like
01:16:01I was a mobile Cafe and I would travel
01:16:03the whole UK build out a kind of Set uh
01:16:06travel the whole UK build out a lecture
01:16:08room lecture to 30 random people for
01:16:11three hours pack it down and go to the
01:16:13next city or next town or whatever else
01:16:15and so it was it was public speaking of
01:16:17A Sort uh with a totally cold audience
01:16:20who did not care or really be that
01:16:22interested can you win them over can you
01:16:24communicate can you teach them that was
01:16:26an incredible two years of my life of
01:16:28doing that every week trying what age oh
01:16:31that was 25 26 and I was a terrible
01:16:34public speaker beforehand and now I love
01:16:36it I love being on stage I love that
01:16:38kind of communication and it helps to
01:16:40make videos and it helps to talk to
01:16:42people and it helps to kind of chew your
01:16:43thoughts before you spit them out again
01:16:45and uh yeah isn't that just everything
01:16:47like communication isn't it you know if
01:16:49I was thinking if I had young kids now
01:16:51what what the most useful
01:16:54thing I think I could do for them is to
01:16:56give them some kind of repetition-based
01:16:59sales experience I spent four years
01:17:02working in call centers on the phone
01:17:04yeah it's no surprise to me now that I
01:17:06I'm a podcaster and I've done sales and
01:17:08I've done I raise investment and I tell
01:17:10stories and I speak all around the world
01:17:12and I've been all around the world this
01:17:13week speaking and I go well those four
01:17:15years working on those phones where I
01:17:18made no money was the essence of the
01:17:21development of that skill but I think
01:17:23it's also realizing whether you did it
01:17:25consciously or not that skill is rooted
01:17:27in empathy that skill is rooted in not
01:17:29in a script but seeing who you've got on
01:17:31the other end and and building something
01:17:33building a conversation around who they
01:17:35are the kind of customization of
01:17:36communication that comes with empathy
01:17:39and that's kind of why I love the
01:17:40service industry and and and encourage
01:17:42people to spend time working in cafes or
01:17:44restaurants because it's a great place
01:17:46to have to read people all the time what
01:17:49do they need right now because that's
01:17:51what a coffee shop should be it should
01:17:52be reliable vendor of happiness you
01:17:55should walk in that building and walk
01:17:56out happier in a better mood happier
01:17:59that's the kind of key thing but that's
01:18:01require that requires someone on the
01:18:03other side looking at you and being like
01:18:05what do you need today and not just
01:18:07asking you that but do you want a
01:18:09conversation do you want to know about
01:18:10the coffee or do you want me to just
01:18:11shut up and make it as fast as I can
01:18:14that empathy piece that reading of
01:18:16people is so important and such a great
01:18:18skill that you can take out of
01:18:20hospitality into whatever else you want
01:18:22to do and I don't think Hospitality
01:18:24really kind of advertises that aspect of
01:18:26it enough when I look at you if I was to
01:18:28do a skills audit I'd say clearly an
01:18:31incredibly hard worker that's going to
01:18:32be a great Tailwind through through your
01:18:34career um curiosity huge amount of
01:18:37curiosity which I think kind of couples
01:18:39up with the word learning that you used
01:18:40at the start you love to learn yeah and
01:18:42your wealth of knowledge because of that
01:18:43curiosity is huge your ability to then
01:18:46articulate what you know and what you've
01:18:47learned and what you've condensed I
01:18:48think is a huge one but not just
01:18:49articulate it tell stories that are like
01:18:51compelling in in a comp way the way you
01:18:53speak the intonations all of that keeps
01:18:55people with you um and then yeah I guess
01:18:59the repetitions of like the craft itself
01:19:01like knowing how to make great coffee
01:19:02Yourself by actually spending a long
01:19:04time doing it which is different from
01:19:06being a parrot like practitioners and
01:19:08parrots are two separate things sure
01:19:09you're clearly a practitioner and a
01:19:11great like not parent because you're not
01:19:13repeating things you you've learned
01:19:14these things yourselves but you're a
01:19:15great talker but also a great
01:19:16practitioner that's very kind of you and
01:19:18then you've got 20 years behind you and
01:19:20[ __ ] me 20 years of doing anything you
01:19:22can you know you become a master so yeah
01:19:25that's my assessment and then you're
01:19:26like a likable individual you're very
01:19:28likable guy you got nice constant your
01:19:30resting face is a smirk I like a smile
01:19:34which is endearing I think I'm broadly
01:19:36happy you seem like a happy guy so I
01:19:38don't think I have any reason not to be
01:19:40yeah what is um what is the message to
01:19:42the world then the closing message to
01:19:43the world about coffee if you had to
01:19:45give one if you were speaking to
01:19:46everyone on planet Earth right now and
01:19:48you had to just give them a few couple
01:19:50sentences this is your megaphone to the
01:19:51entirety of the world 8 billion people
01:19:54if you want it to be coffee is really
01:19:56great fun I if you are willing to put in
01:19:59a little tiny bit I guarantee you will
01:20:00get way more out however you enjoy your
01:20:03coffee whatever you enjoy about coffee
01:20:05it's got more to give and and it's I
01:20:07promise a ton of
01:20:10fun that's what I walk away here with as
01:20:13many with all the other insights into
01:20:15you your life coffee itself the big
01:20:17thing I walk away from this conversation
01:20:19with is an increased excitement about
01:20:22coffee good I hope to uh fan the Flames
01:20:24of that after this yeah and I'm really
01:20:25going to I really no I really mean that
01:20:26I'm I feel like I'm you might have just
01:20:29sent me on my own little coffee Journey
01:20:31oh come and have coffee with me
01:20:32somewhere we'll go and get a bunch of
01:20:33stuff we do a little coffee tasting for
01:20:34you and see what you really like I know
01:20:36you've got no time so that's not a real
01:20:38invite but thank you% it is I'm just up
01:20:40the road from here like anytime we'll do
01:20:42it I appreciate that I'll take you up on
01:20:44that all right okay so we we have a
01:20:46closing tradition on this podcast where
01:20:47the last guest leaves a question for the
01:20:50next guest and I cannot believe I have
01:20:51to ask you this bloody question I'm
01:20:53ready you will you will think I'm lying
01:20:55when I read this
01:20:57okay but I have to read it because
01:21:00that's my job I'm ready no you're not
01:21:02okay what is the duration of your
01:21:04nighttime
01:21:06erections did you just have Brian
01:21:08Johnson on here is that is that from
01:21:11Brian Johnson um I don't know Brian the
01:21:13little device was sold out by the time I
01:21:15saw it yeah uh I I yeah I don't know we
01:21:20should all be finding out apparently
01:21:22neither do I I mean Jesus Christ that's
01:21:24not going to make the conversation cards
01:21:26that question [ __ ] sck Brian um but
01:21:28thank you so much do you know what these
01:21:29books are just absolutely beautiful
01:21:31thank you very much these have you have
01:21:33you just done two of them or is there
01:21:35more the atlas is a second edition now
01:21:37and then the other one just came out the
01:21:38world atlas of coffee is one of the most
01:21:41beautiful books I've ever seen in my
01:21:42life and it's got they did a great job
01:21:44beautifully Rich um Photography in it
01:21:46lots of History all of the equipment
01:21:48questions that I've been asking you
01:21:50about so if anyone really wants to
01:21:52understand coffee oh I tell you what get
01:21:53someone a great book if they're a coffee
01:21:56fan that is the book that is absolutely
01:21:58gorgeous and then the second book how to
01:22:00make the best coffee at home I mean we
01:22:02we we touched on this a little bit but
01:22:04it goes into such great muggle detail
01:22:07because even as an idiot I can
01:22:09understand all of this stuff um as to
01:22:12how to build your own little home setup
01:22:14and the process that is important to
01:22:15great coffee that is right yeah the
01:22:17first one was kind of written as a guide
01:22:18book is coffee got big and weird and
01:22:20confusing and and there was just a lot
01:22:22of information suddenly I kind of wrote
01:22:24the first one as a guide book to this
01:22:25new wave of coffee and the second one
01:22:27really is people have embraced coffee at
01:22:29home I just want to make it as easy as
01:22:31possible by focusing on the stuff that
01:22:33matters and not all the kind of Voodoo
01:22:35or weird sort of uh odd Traditions
01:22:38around that and just the stuff that
01:22:39really makes a difference you didn't
01:22:40have to make them so beautiful but
01:22:42they're such beautiful books throughout
01:22:43so I'm going to link them both in the
01:22:45description below for anyone that wants
01:22:46to check them out thank you James thank
01:22:47you so much it's been a pleasure I feel
01:22:49inspired really enjoyed this thank you
01:22:51and I I'm excited to go and get a
01:22:54wonderful MacDonald's coffee immediately
01:22:56after this conversation's done so thank
01:22:58you thank
01:23:01you a quick word on hu as you know
01:23:04they're a sponsor of this podcast and
01:23:05I'm an investor in the company it is
01:23:07finally here 3 years of work from hu to
01:23:09try and make a bar a snack bar that is
01:23:11nutritionally complete as of the
01:23:13recording of this episode they finally
01:23:16released these bars that are high in
01:23:17protein 27 vitamins and minerals and
01:23:21just 2 gram ofar sugar The Impossible
01:23:23has been done and it tastes so godamn
01:23:26good often these snack bars these like
01:23:28high protein snack bars taste like
01:23:29you're eating Play-Doh or cardboard or
01:23:32something it's so hard to make one that
01:23:34is nutritionally complete and that
01:23:36tastes good and ladies and gentlemen
01:23:39here we have it I'm going to put the
01:23:40link in the description to get your bar
01:23:41below try it out and tag me and let me
01:23:44know exactly how you get on because it's
01:23:46so nice to finally have a bar that is
01:23:48nutritionally complete and that actually
01:23:49doesn't taste like cardboard and that
01:23:51tastes delicious
01:23:53The Impossible has been
01:23:55accomplished do you need a podcast to
01:23:58listen to next we've discovered that
01:23:59people who liked this episode also tend
01:24:02to absolutely love another recent
01:24:04episode we've done so I've linked that
01:24:06episode in the description below I know
01:24:09you'll enjoy
01:24:12[Music]
01:24:18it
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