Jordan Peterson: STOP LYING TO YOURSELF! How To Turn Your Life Around In 2024!
The Diary Of A CEO2023-11-23
The Diary Of A CEO#steven bartlett steve bartlett#podcast#the diary of a CEO podcast#life lessons#CEO#jordan peterson#jordan b peterson#jordan peterson motivation#jordan peterson motivational video#Jordan Peterson: How To Become The Person You’ve Always Wanted To Be#jordan peterson life advice#jordan peterson 2021#Jordan peterson crying#Jordan peterson podcast#jordan peterson success chasers#how to improve your life#peterson's academy
2M views|8 months ago
💫 Short Summary
Jordan's guidance led a listener to transformation, emphasizing simplicity in tackling challenges. Therapy focuses on breaking down issues for gradual progress, like exposure therapy for agoraphobia. Effective communication, active listening, and understanding are crucial in relationships and therapy. Addressing conflicts and setting boundaries help maintain healthy relationships. Childhood trauma impacts behavior, highlighting the importance of self-awareness and communication. Peterson's Academy offers quality education with autonomy for professors. Personal growth involves navigating identity and serving a higher purpose, while avoiding excessive self-centeredness for societal harmony.
✨ Highlights
📊 Transcript
✦
Impact of Jordan's guidance and support on a listener's life transformation.
02:08Jordan's support helped the listener overcome struggles and achieve success in their career and life.
The listener expressed gratitude for Jordan pulling them out of a dark moment and helping them regain control of their life.
Jordan credits his success to effectively synthesizing and communicating complex ideas, aiding individuals in simplifying challenges and progressing towards their goals.
✦
Importance of starting small and making simple commitments when feeling overwhelmed.
05:55Breaking tasks down into manageable steps, even if they seem trivial, is key.
Example: Cleaning up a room as a powerful first step towards regaining control and moving forward.
This approach helps confront underlying issues and break free from patterns of discouragement.
Focusing on small, achievable goals helps individuals gradually rebuild confidence and overcome obstacles.
✦
Addressing underlying issues through identifying challenges.
10:31Therapists assist clients in breaking down problems to determine central issues and create strategies for improvement.
Encouraging small, manageable tasks, such as vacuuming a room, can be a first step towards progress and self-improvement.
✦
Importance of collaborative empiricism in behavioral therapy.
11:44Clinicians and individuals work together to identify problems, solutions, and strategies collaboratively.
Breaking tasks into smaller steps can lead to gradual progress and exponential growth in skills.
Taking a small first step can initiate significant development, even if the destination seems distant.
Exposure to small but challenging tasks can enhance skills and lead to the acquisition of new perceptions and behaviors.
✦
Explanation of exposure therapy for agoraphobia.
14:37Women are more susceptible to agoraphobia due to over-dependent relationships.
Therapy involves confronting fears like elevators to address core anxieties.
Gradual exposure helps individuals overcome phobias and regain control over their lives.
✦
Importance of addressing fear and discomfort in overcoming challenges.
18:01Break down problems into manageable parts to tackle them step by step.
Encouragement and support are crucial in helping others navigate challenges.
Men tend to focus on problem-solving, while women may seek understanding and empathy first.
Recognizing and addressing underlying issues is essential for personal growth and effective support.
✦
Importance of effective communication in relationships.
21:55Active listening and understanding underlying issues are key components.
Allowing partners to express concerns without interruption can uncover hidden problems.
Jumping straight to offering help may not address root cause of the issue.
Developing patience and focusing on active listening can lead to better problem-solving and relationship outcomes.
✦
Importance of listening in understanding others' problems and finding solutions emphasized.
25:38Asking questions is key to clarifying situations and uncovering underlying issues.
Example shared of colleague discovering root cause of unhappiness at work through questioning.
Emphasis on actively listening without jumping to conclusions or getting defensive.
Challenges of truly listening in relationships and work environments discussed.
✦
Importance of open reception in communication according to Freud's technique of free association.
29:50Hiding oneself can hinder truth revelation in communication.
Children test for attention and modify behavior based on the response they receive.
Attention and love are equated, highlighting the importance of open communication for understanding and connection.
Freud's practice of hiding himself during therapy sessions aimed to create a safe space for clients to reveal truths, allowing individuals to freely express themselves.
✦
Impact of trauma on relationships and behavior.
32:27Unresolved traumas from childhood can influence reactions to current situations.
Trauma creates holes in psychological landscape, leading to recurring problems.
Tears can indicate a breakdown of current conceptual structures, allowing for learning.
Introspection and communication can help address traumas and develop new ways of understanding life's challenges.
✦
Importance of Communication and Understanding in Relationships
36:32Open dialogue and practical strategies are essential for addressing triggers and conflicts effectively.
Identifying and verbalizing problems is crucial for resolution and growth within relationships.
Taking personal responsibility for emotional reactions is emphasized over blaming others in conflicts.
Self-awareness, empathy, and continuous effort are key in maintaining healthy relationships.
✦
Importance of Addressing Conflicts in Relationships
40:21Setting boundaries and rules can help manage problems and maintain peace in relationships.
Actively listening to your partner is crucial to avoid potential issues that could lead to divorce.
Men are advised to listen to their partners to avoid future consequences and maintain a healthy relationship.
✦
Importance of women's sensitivity in relationships.
42:00Women often bring up problems before they become obvious, stressing the need for partners to listen and communicate effectively.
Partners are encouraged to act in good faith, be truthful, and not run away when their true selves are revealed.
The significance of marriage vows in fostering trust and commitment is highlighted.
✦
The impact of childhood trauma on adult behavior in relation to bullying and victimization.
45:45Bullies and victims often experience negative long-term developmental trajectories, with bullies becoming criminal and alienated, and victims becoming depressed, anxious, and dependent.
Partners with a history of being bully victims may bring these experiences into their marriage, leading to conflicts where one partner may perceive the other as a bully.
Understanding the effects of childhood trauma and addressing them through therapy or other means is crucial for healthy relationships and personal growth.
✦
Importance of communication and problem-solving in relationships and the workplace.
49:31Emphasizes listening, finding solutions, and asking open-ended questions to understand perspectives and improve communication.
Being proactive and offering solutions in a work setting can lead to advancement and a positive reputation.
Self-reflection and questioning behavior are key to improving relationships and personal growth.
✦
Importance of setting parameters for daily interactions in a relationship.
51:25Treat the relationship like a business that requires time and attention.
Avoid discussing complicated issues when hungry.
Spend at least 90 minutes a week with partner to address problems.
Listening to partner is essential for understanding needs and resolving issues effectively.
✦
The impact of betrayal on trust in relationships and the layers of problems that come with it.
55:23Childhood sexual abuse as the ultimate betrayal leading to trauma and the need to navigate through difficult experiences.
Emphasizing the development of a philosophy of good and evil and combating evil with truth, love, and beauty.
Explaining post-traumatic stress disorder as a result of unresolved trauma and the journey through personal hells similar to Dante's Inferno.
Addressing the bottom problem to solve a range of peripheral issues, similar to the themes in Apocalypse Now.
✦
Impact of 'Heart of Darkness' documentary on production team.
57:51Discussion on ordinary people participating in Nazi atrocities, influenced by propaganda and societal pressures.
Mention of 'Ordinary Men' book as an example of average individuals committing heinous acts under certain circumstances.
Emphasis on understanding one's capacity for cruelty and moral decision-making.
✦
Importance of Honesty in Personal Interactions.
01:02:07White lies can have negative consequences on relationships, emphasizing the value of being truthful.
Personal experiences with his wife demonstrate the benefits of genuine feedback.
Uncomfortable conversations are necessary for maintaining honesty and integrity in relationships.
Honesty is crucial as a foundation for building strong relationships and personal integrity.
✦
Addressing past mistakes and finding the right path forward for personal growth and relationship repair is crucial for resolving trauma.
01:05:21Therapy involves identifying past decisions and their consequences to understand and rectify mistakes.
Confessing, repenting, and specifying a new path forward can lead to healing and resolution of past traumas.
The speaker promotes a waiting list for conversation cards related to self-improvement.
An early access special deal is offered for those interested in the conversation cards.
✦
Challenges faced by young people in transitioning into adulthood and forming their identity.
01:08:54Current concepts of identity are limited and lead to conflicts in society.
Balancing emotions and drives is important for personal growth.
Maturity involves harmonizing conflicting spirits within oneself.
Progressing towards a more integrated self is crucial for personal development and societal harmony.
✦
Progression of Identity and Serving a Higher Purpose.
01:13:13Emphasis on developing relationships, responsibilities, and opportunities at each level of identity.
Serving a greater good through family, community, or faith is fundamental for personal growth and fulfillment.
Importance of transitioning from individual to husband to father to community member in order to serve a higher purpose.
Highlighting the concept of personal growth through serving a greater good, such as country or God.
✦
The correlation between self-focus and societal issues.
01:15:25Classical Christian philosophy is contrasted with contemporary beliefs, highlighting the danger of excessive self-centeredness.
Historical perspective on moral superiority based on power and wealth, linked to belief in cosmic order.
Decline of religion and shift towards subjective self-identity discussed.
Warning against conforming to societal pressures and losing individual identity emphasized.
✦
Peterson's Academy aims to provide high-quality education at a low cost, featuring interesting thinkers and individuals who have made significant contributions.
01:19:15Dr. Peterson's motivation comes from his curiosity and desire to offer a better educational solution than traditional universities.
Educators are emphasized to be respected and valued for their expertise on the platform.
The platform serves as a space for meaningful discussions and interactions with experts from various fields.
✦
Peterson Academy's mission is to provide professors with financial security and freedom to teach without political agendas.
01:23:43Live audience members are carefully selected based on their genuine desire to learn.
Courses have been pre-recorded for release in early 2024.
The academy serves as a platform for top professors to share their expertise and receive recognition.
Despite facing health challenges, Peterson remains optimistic and focused on future opportunities.
✦
Reflection on Excitement and Opportunities in Life.
01:26:20Interactions with fans worldwide and meeting interesting people through podcasts are highlighted.
Success of books and enjoyment in writing are mentioned.
Gratitude for speaking with the interviewer and impact of conversations are expressed.
Importance of authenticity and honesty in podcast guest selection process is emphasized.
✦
Introduction of a new nutritionally complete snack bar after three years of development.
01:29:07The bar is high in protein, containing 27 vitamins and minerals, and only 2 grams of sugar.
The taste of the bar is described as delicious, unlike other high-protein bars that often lack flavor.
Viewers are encouraged to try the new snack bar and provide feedback on its taste and nutritional value.
The speaker emphasizes the achievement of creating a snack option that is both nutritious and tasty.
00:00sometimes it can feel like men and women
00:02in relationships want entirely different
00:04things like they're struggling to
00:06communicate and connect on the same
00:08level about the same set of priorities
00:11Jordan will now explain exactly why that
00:15is but outside of the context of a
00:17relationship all of us struggle in our
00:20lives for a variety of different reasons
00:22and what Jordan's particularly good at
00:24is telling anybody who's right now
00:26listening to this that is struggling in
00:28some way or finds themselves in a
00:30situation where they're struggling to
00:31get out and climb out of that situation
00:34step by step how to do that how to turn
00:38that situation into the greatest success
00:41of your life and that's why I loved this
00:44conversation and why I think you're
00:46going to love it too and before this
00:47episode starts I've got a 10-second
00:49favor to ask you that are listening to
00:51this right now 62% roughly of people
00:54that listen to this podcast haven't yet
00:56hit the Subscribe button if you could do
00:58me any favor at all it would be just to
01:00hit that subscribe button helps this
01:01channel immensely and if you do that for
01:03me I promise with my team to do
01:06everything we can to make this show
01:08better and better and better for you do
01:09we have a deal enjoy the
01:12[Music]
01:18episode
01:21Jordan we had a conversation before and
01:24it reached tens of millions of people
01:26and as I went through the feedback and
01:29the comments of that conversation I
01:32found one that really stood out to
01:34me someone said I had just days of will
01:40left in my
01:41body I felt like a
01:44failure I hadn't reached the potential I
01:47knew I had in me despite effort I
01:50couldn't become the person I was so
01:52desperate to
01:53become and then I found
01:56Jordan and his unfiltered words pulled
01:59me from my darkest moment just in time
02:03now my life is in my hands once again
02:06and I've built a career and a life I'm
02:08proud of so thank you Jordan we may
02:12never meet but you've saved my life and
02:15my children still have their father
02:18because of
02:20you it is one hell of an
02:23impact that you've had on just that
02:25single person's life how do you receive
02:28such incredible
02:30feedback from a stranger you've never
02:33met well when when you were reading that
02:35you know I mean it it's obviously a very
02:38positive thing to hear but my mind
02:42immediately went to why that's the case
02:46see I've been in the fortunate position
02:49of being able to
02:50synthesize and then communicate a
02:53centuries worth of clinical research and
02:57experience gathered by very many
03:00extremely intelligent and careful people
03:02and then on top of that whatever I've
03:04managed to gather being reasonably
03:07educated in the broader sphere of the
03:09humanities and Sciences let's say and
03:12the effect
03:13that this individual is attributing to
03:17me as a consequence of that right I've
03:21been successful because I've been a
03:23conduit of good ideas and I have the
03:26ability to synthesize a lot of
03:28information and to communicate that to
03:31people in a way that's understandable
03:33the the person who made that comment you
03:35know they were struggling for one reason
03:37or another and one of the things you do
03:38with people who are struggling is you
03:40make the simple even simpler because
03:43then they can get a toe hold you know
03:45like if if they're really barely able to
03:48move I had one client you know he was H
03:52he had a hard life man he was like 85
03:54he'd fallen off a ladder and broken his
03:56neck and they had permanently Fus it so
03:59he was basically like this he could
04:00hardly move he was so depressed he
04:02literally couldn't get out of bed you
04:04know it was awful and he was in chronic
04:06pain because of his broken neck and so
04:09you know the first thing I did with him
04:11was get him to sit up for like 30
04:13seconds that was it that's where he had
04:16to start you know and after I I worked
04:18with him when he was in the hospital
04:20after two weeks he was walking down the
04:22hall and able to sit up and read for you
04:25know five or six minutes and he got out
04:27of the hospital he went home and but he
04:30had to
04:31start with the simplest possible steps
04:34and hey man you start this is the
04:38definition of humility in some ways is
04:40that you start progressing where you can
04:43start I think about this a lot because
04:46there's a lot of people that are
04:48objectively or subjectively down and out
04:50in their lives that's how they feel and
04:52it's often too intimidating to present
04:54them with the idea of climbing Mount
04:56Everest today a proverbial M Everest
04:58like just pick yourself up and go to the
05:00gym and work out be healthy right and
05:02that yeah no that's not going to happen
05:04it's like putting them at the foot of
05:05Mount Everest but the small commitments
05:07we keep to ourself are often really
05:10undervalued because they seem so trivial
05:12like you saying well that's the Casual
05:14contempt that's another aspect of that
05:17well one of the really difficult things
05:19to learn when you're down and out is how
05:22far you're down because it's humiliating
05:26you know I was Ill recently and when I
05:29started to recover I couldn't really I
05:31couldn't really button my shirts I had
05:33to learn to do that again I did I had
05:35forgotten how to put my hands on
05:37keyboard I didn't know where to put my
05:39hands I had to learn to type again now I
05:42hadn't lost all the knowledge and it
05:43came back quite quickly but and the
05:45reason I'm saying that is because one of
05:48the impediments to people who've really
05:51taken a blow in their life is that
05:53things have fallen apart around them so
05:55badly that where they have to start is
05:58humiliating even to consider the rule
06:01it's a pretty straightforward rule when
06:03you want to get back on your feet and
06:04the rule is you have to make the task
06:08small
06:09enough so that you'll do it no matter
06:12how small that is you know and that can
06:15and I I've worked with people I mean one
06:17of the things I become well known for is
06:20my advice to start by cleaning up your
06:21room but I had plenty of clients who
06:24couldn't they couldn't go home and clean
06:26up their room they hadn't cleaned up
06:27their room for like 20 years for all
06:30sorts of reasons maybe because every
06:31time they did try to do anything
06:35positive in their family no matter what
06:37it was they were immediately punished
06:39and
06:40undermined and so if they even went home
06:43and dared to start cleaning up the room
06:45they'd face resistance within the family
06:47that was just a manifestation of the
06:5050,000 times they'd been discouraged in
06:52the past but also a move that would
06:54upset the insanity that characterized
06:57the pattern of familial interaction
06:59actions and so actually when if they
07:01even made a move to clean up their room
07:04what they were doing simultaneously was
07:06confronting the dragon in the family
07:08that had made every single person in
07:10that household insane for like five
07:12generations right so it looks simple
07:15it's not bloody simple and so in a
07:17situation like that you cut it down so
07:19that maybe the first thing they do is
07:21clean up like maybe they look inside one
07:24drawer and see the mess that's there and
07:27just look at it for a minute and think
07:29about how they might reorganize it if
07:31they were going to when people are very
07:33down and out and they decide to make a
07:36move forward in some ways they're facing
07:39the whole panoply of problems that
07:41confront them in in the guise of that
07:44single problem right it's all lurking
07:47behind it right it's like you know they
07:51see the tip of a reptile's tail outside
07:54a gigantic closet let's say and they
07:58look and they think well that's just the
07:59tip of a tail how what harm can it do me
08:02but it's connected to the whole damn
08:04Beast and the advantage to that is that
08:06if you make that first step forward
08:09you're actually advancing in the form of
08:11in the face of all that opposition the
08:13disadvantage is that the first task
08:16seems so small that you literally have
08:18to be on your knees to be humble enough
08:20to lower yourself to take that first
08:22step you know God is that all I can do
08:25I'm so
08:26useless you might even be more useless
08:28than that because you might fail out it
08:30I had lots of clients who would come
08:31back you know we'd make a deal that they
08:33would do something simple I remember one
08:35client is such a comical story in a
08:38terrible dark way you know he was an
08:40overgrown infant and he was 30 he was
08:45still living at home in his messy you
08:47know High School room under the thumb of
08:49his mother conveniently for him CU then
08:51he never had to do anything and he had
08:54managed to entice some girl into
08:56sleeping with him and she got pregnant
08:58now he's going to have a son and he had
08:59enough sense to come to me and say you
09:02know I'm kind of a wasil and I've mucked
09:04up my life but maybe I'd like not to
09:07destroy this kid so is there something I
09:09could do to put myself together so you
09:11know we talked that through we
09:13negotiated which is what you do with a
09:15client if you're sensible you know you
09:17lay out the problem first okay what the
09:19hell's wrong with you do you think you
09:20have to listen and listen and listen
09:22well the person unfolds everything that
09:25might be wrong they put all their cards
09:27on the table and then you sort through
09:29through them and you think well some of
09:30that even they'll figure this out
09:32themselves some of that's not really the
09:34central issue and so you imagine they
09:37lay all the cards on the table and then
09:38you kind of get rid of 90% of them it's
09:40a symptom it's a symptom yeah yeah it's
09:42it's it's it's it doesn't really bother
09:44me now that I've talked about it that
09:46doesn't seem key I think I'm really done
09:48with that that isn't interesting to me
09:50but they'll still have to lay it all out
09:52and then you focus on the problem and
09:54then the next thing you think is ask
09:55them is something this is great General
09:57problem solving strategy is okay if this
10:00could be better as far as you're
10:02concerned what would better look like
10:04and then they have to lay their cards on
10:05the table about that so you do the same
10:07thing and now you have the diagnosis
10:10that's the problem statement and now you
10:12have a
10:14hypothetical uh cure let's say and now
10:17you need a strategy right and that would
10:19be the steps in between the problem and
10:21the final destination then you break
10:24down the steps until you find a step
10:26that they that the person will take have
10:29to do that experimentally so the first
10:31step for him was to vacuum the carpet in
10:34his in his room and so this is literally
10:37what he did he brought the vacuum it was
10:39a standup vacuum he brought that into
10:42his room but he only got it to the
10:43threshold and then he left at 45° across
10:46the door late leaning and he walked over
10:50it for a whole week and so then he had
10:53to come back and tell me you know and he
10:54was embarrassed he said you know I got
10:57the vacuum cleaner
11:00just to the doorway and I left it there
11:01and then instead of bringing it into my
11:04bedroom I just you know I put an
11:06obstacle in my own path and stepped over
11:09it for a whole week it's a very
11:11humiliating thing CU he knew that his
11:13life was on the line and he knew that
11:15his son's life was on the line and he
11:18knew that he was one useless bastard for
11:20not being able to bring that vacuum
11:21cleaner into the room you know but the
11:25proper interpretation of that in part is
11:27well you got the bloody out of the
11:29closet didn't
11:31you you know so what we did was
11:34renegotiate this is called technically
11:36this is called collaborative empiricism
11:38it's a behavioral approach for
11:40clinicians and the the collaboration is
11:44well as I said what's the problem
11:46diagnosis what's the potential solution
11:49the person has to be on board with all
11:51this right I mean they have to be the
11:53people who decide that's the problem you
11:56can't enforce that on them they have to
11:58discover it for themselves and the same
12:01with the solution and the same with the
12:03strategies it's like I don't know what's
12:05right for you oh listen we can jointly
12:09explore what might be the right vision
12:12for you and then we can break that down
12:14into a strategy but you you have to be
12:17on board with the strategy you have to
12:18feel that this is right for you it's
12:20absolutely 100% crucial that it's
12:23voluntary and then we'll say okay well
12:26maybe this is a solution why don't you
12:28go imp it come back next week after
12:31having attempted this let's see how it
12:34went you know and sometimes people come
12:36back and say well you know that went
12:37great and it started me and I did three
12:39other things and you know what we seem
12:41to be on the right track and sometimes
12:42they come back and say nope that didn't
12:46work at all like with the vacuum cleaner
12:48and so then you have to think what you
12:50do in that situation is make the task
12:53smaller if you make the task small
12:57enough I've never never seen
13:01anyone not be able to progress if they
13:05made the task small enough but you know
13:08that can be pretty humiliating now the
13:10upside is that once you've take that
13:13first step youve look the beast in the
13:16face and you'll start progressing not
13:18linearly but exponentially in speed so
13:22what's cool is that doesn't really
13:23matter how small that first step is
13:26because it'll start doubling and
13:28anything that doubles grows unbelievably
13:30quickly and so that's a very useful
13:32thing to know too and that that's true
13:34when you're learning anything new it's
13:36like you you'll feel like an impostor
13:38you'll feel like a fool cuz you are and
13:41you'll think I'll never get there and
13:43and it might the destination might look
13:45very distant but if you take a
13:48sufficiently small first step and get
13:50the ball rolling you can be cruising
13:52along at a pretty good rate generally
13:55faster than you'll think what's going on
13:57in one's psychology there is it building
13:59evidence of your own capabilities and
14:01capacity definitely what seems to happen
14:04when you expose people to small but
14:07challenging tasks it does two things it
14:09makes them more skilled because now
14:11they're actually dealing with the
14:12problem and so they're acquiring the new
14:16perceptions and the new behaviors that
14:18are Mastery so they're actually
14:21expanding their domain of conceptual
14:24structures and actions that's that's
14:27both conception and skill but at the
14:29same time they're seeing themselves as
14:31the actors that can change the direction
14:34of their life for example when you do
14:37exposure therapy with people who have
14:39phobias agobia is probably the best
14:42example so agobia is a condition where
14:45people will become so terrified
14:47generally of life that they they often
14:51literally can't go outside their house
14:52if they go outside their house their
14:54anxiety levels climb to the point where
14:55they have a panic attack which is like
14:57the complete disinhibition of the fight
14:59ORF flight system very overwhelming
15:02experience people will go out and
15:03they'll have a panic attack and then
15:05they'll avoid where they had the panic
15:06attack but then the probability of the
15:09panic attack starts to spread so that
15:11wherever they go they have a panic
15:13attack and then they end up stuck at
15:14home and it's quite a common condition
15:17now the people who develop that are
15:19generally women and that's because women
15:21are more sensitive to anxiety than men
15:23they're generally women who had an
15:25over-dependent relationship with their
15:27parents Maybe particularly their father
15:30they're generally women who went from
15:32their father to an to a boyfriend who
15:35was either overbearing and
15:36overprotective or who was enticed into
15:39becoming that by the dependency of the
15:41person of the sufferer and then so
15:45imagine you're dependent young woman you
15:47haven't learned to stand on your two
15:48feet every time you had a problem you
15:50were taught to seek Authority you
15:51sheltered behind the protective walls
15:54that someone else had established for
15:55you you married someone like that now
15:58he's he died or you're getting a divorce
16:01or or so that wall is starting to come
16:04down okay so all that existential Panic
16:06starts to rise you start panicking when
16:09you go out and you end up at home unable
16:11to move also thinking you're the only
16:14person in the world who's suffering that
16:16way and so what you do is you find out
16:19you you you do a problem analysis and
16:22you find out their core fears and what
16:25agrh bics are often afraid of elevators
16:27and that's quite convenient because you
16:29know there are elevators everywhere so
16:31you can start having them confront Their
16:33Fear of elevators so how do you do that
16:36well if they're really
16:37terrified you say well let's look why
16:39don't you come sit by me and and uh
16:41let's look at some pictures of some
16:43elevators and you say look at the
16:45elevator okay now imagine being 20 ft
16:49from it how are you feeling they'll tell
16:51you they're nervous you know they're
16:52afraid they're going to get trapped in
16:53the elevator they're afraid they'll have
16:55a heart attack they'll they're afraid
16:56that they'll be in there with other
16:58people who are watching them panic and
17:01have a heart attack and being humiliated
17:04so the the two big categories of fears
17:06for people are like painful death and
17:10then public humiliation and if you have
17:12a really good anxiety fantasy it's that
17:15you're going to undergo a painful death
17:17in a very humiliating way and so that's
17:20what they imagine happening in the
17:21elevator so it's not exactly that
17:23they're afraid of the elevator right
17:25they're afraid of death and humiliation
17:27and the elevator a portal to the realm
17:30of death and humiliation it's like I'm
17:33afraid of an elevator okay how afraid
17:37can you could you look at an elevator
17:39from a 100 yards down the hall well like
17:43if it isn't 100 yards than 125 yards
17:46like you'll find some threshold that the
17:49person can tolerate okay so now you're
17:51at the threshold where their the
17:54magnitude of their confidence is
17:56precisely matched with the size of the
17:58apparent Dragon right so and you they
18:01feel that it's like there's a place
18:03where their fear will they'll say that's
18:06close enough it's like okay now you're
18:08on the edge you're on the edge so now
18:10we'll dance on the edge we'll move your
18:13foot forward okay so let's move a foot
18:16forward okay anything NE negative
18:18happening well I'm feeling a little
18:19nervous okay well let's just stand here
18:21for a bit keep your eye on the elevator
18:24don't don't hide because you can avoid
18:27by just not looking and we do this all
18:30the time we look away and the bigger the
18:33dragon the more we're likely to look
18:35away you know people don't people don't
18:37like to look
18:39at and you can understand why people
18:42will avert their eyes from
18:44atrocity right and they'll certainly
18:46avert their eyes from the thought that
18:47they could participate in atrocity and
18:50you could think of that as the Heart of
18:51Darkness it's it isn't because you could
18:54look at the fact that you could take
18:56Glee in the commission of atrocity
18:58and and no one wants to look at that
19:00well you start and you have to look at
19:03that you have to look at that in the
19:05final analysis but one step at a time
19:09you know and and you can do that with
19:11any problem literally any problem break
19:13it down break it down break it down
19:15public speaking anything going to the
19:17gym anything anything a small dose you
19:21know a small dose and it's it's it's so
19:24fun to do this with people it's the same
19:26thing you do when you're when you're
19:29when you're encouraging your your young
19:32child and that's a primary source of
19:35gratification for human beings is
19:37putting someone on the edge and
19:38encouraging them and so you do that as a
19:40clinician so I loved being a clinician
19:43because you know people say well how can
19:46you you know how how do you tolerate
19:48listening to people's problems well
19:51first of all they're not your problems
19:54you have to understand that because if
19:57they're your problems you're stealing
19:58that person's problems from them you
20:00know because you could come to me
20:02especially people who are you know very
20:04unsophisticated they can come and talk
20:06to somebody like a a well experienced
20:09clinician someone whose breadth of
20:12knowledge exceeds theirs by a
20:13substantial margin and that person can
20:15just give them advice but then they go
20:18act out that advice and then that's not
20:20them they have to come to it themselves
20:23this brings me to a point about trying
20:26to help people in your life
20:28because we all have people in our lives
20:30that are struggling in some way and our
20:31knee-jerk response is to get in there
20:34and fix solve the this is a problem that
20:36men often have when they're dealing with
20:37women yeah they they leap to the problem
20:40solution phase and they also do that in
20:43some ways to avoid and this is what
20:45annoys women because what the women want
20:47and they don't even know this but this
20:49is what the women want women are more
20:51sensitive to threat than
20:53men okay so they're looking for
20:55Predators now predation detection is a
20:59it's an intuition anxiety is an
21:01intuition something's wrong okay what
21:06well then you guess right so imagine the
21:09threat system has sort of got something
21:11in its sights but it it's a a sense that
21:14something's not right but it's not fully
21:17fleshed out the picture because serpents
21:20are camouflaged right so the threat is
21:23hidden well what the woman wants is to
21:26lay out all the things that might be
21:28wrong okay well the guy doesn't want
21:30that cuz first of all you know maybe
21:32your wife is upset about something in
21:34relationship to your children and she
21:36doesn't know what it is so now she has
21:38to go through everything she thinks that
21:40might be wrong well even for you to
21:43listen that's going to be rough because
21:44some of those things are going to be
21:46about you and so you just have to shut
21:48up and you have to let her put her cards
21:50on the table understanding now she has
21:52to do it in good faith right she can't
21:55be using that opportunity to skewer you
21:58and so these things are tricky to manage
22:00but you want to listen to her lay all
22:03the cards on the table now the advantage
22:05to that is now you know where all the
22:07hidden snakes are now if you do that
22:10what you'll find out and so will she is
22:11that most of the things that she's
22:14worried about she's not actually worried
22:16about she won't know that until she lays
22:18them out on the table and can see them
22:20and then both of you can triangulate to
22:22the actual problem and then you can
22:25negotiate a solution and off offer help
22:28but if you jump right to help the reason
22:31you can't do that is cu you you probably
22:33have the problem wrong so so then back
22:36to your question about helping one of
22:39the most effective things you can do to
22:41help people is to listen and there are
22:44Technologies of listening and so the
22:46first one is don't assume that either
22:50you or the person who's talking knows
22:52what the problem is it's so hard once
22:56you have the problem specified IED
22:58you've solved like 95% of the problem
23:01it's re that diagnostic move is really
23:04hard are we sure we're addressing the
23:07most crucial issue you have to have your
23:09sites focused right on the center point
23:12of the Cross right like in a in a Gun
23:14Site it's like are we aiming at the
23:16right Target and then you can start
23:19negotiating problem solution and so so
23:22it's but you can develop the patience to
23:25do that once you understand that that
23:27initial active listening is in itself
23:30the most helpful thing you can do just
23:33listen and then how do you listen Okay
23:36so if I'm listening to you there'll be
23:38times when what you're saying doesn't
23:40make sense and so then I'll just say
23:42well you're saying this now but you said
23:46this five minutes ago and if you listen
23:48a lot you can learn to track
23:50conversations across a very long span of
23:52time and that's quite fun you said this
23:55but then you said this and they don't
23:57like they seem contradictory to me
23:58you're not accusing the person you're
24:00saying I see an inconsistency in the way
24:02you're formulating the problem and
24:04they'll sort of startle a little bit and
24:06then try to rectify that they'll check
24:08you out to see if you're insulting them
24:10or trying to play a game of moral
24:11superiority first but if it's just an
24:13honest question then you're actually
24:15helping them lay out a description of
24:18the situation that's not internally
24:20contradictory okay so and the great
24:23podcasters do this you see this with
24:25Rogan you know all Rogan does is ask
24:26stupid questions M and the way he does
24:29that is by Consulting with his own
24:31ignorance in humility Rogan is listening
24:33he's thinking I'm a stupid LK head and I
24:36don't understand this what do you mean
24:39and the what's that's brave because he's
24:42exposing his own ignorance but it's it's
24:44honest because he doesn't understand but
24:46it also unites him with his audience
24:48because especially with someone like
24:50Rogan the probability at this time that
24:52if Rogan doesn't understand the gist of
24:55the conversation that 95% percent of his
24:58audience doesn't understand is it's like
25:00100% the importance of listening can't
25:03possibly be overstated listen ask
25:06questions until you understand and by
25:08doing that you also help the other
25:10person clarify the situation it is so
25:12hard to do and I I think we have to just
25:14pause at that step because it is as you
25:16said you said like that's 95% of the
25:19challenge it is so hard to do in
25:20relationships in work I've sat literally
25:23at this table with a colleague of mine
25:25about a year ago and she was telling me
25:27she worked in one of my companies she
25:28was telling me that she's unhappy in her
25:31role and I remember sitting here and she
25:33gave me a bunch of reasons why and I
25:35kept asking and asking questions and
25:37after just 30 minutes of asking the
25:38questions she had decided that in fact
25:41everything she had just said was not the
25:42issue and then it related back to a much
25:44more fundamental issue of just meaning
25:46in her work well see see okay well
25:48that's very important that's very
25:50important Yung called that a
25:53circumambulation okay so now imagine the
25:55threat system is going off right it's
25:56saying something's wrong something's
25:58wrong but it it's just it's an it's a
26:01primordial predator predator detection
26:04Instinct that's what's being triggered
26:06it isn't High resol it isn't capable of
26:10high resolution conceptual formulation
26:13not to begin with something's wrong
26:15something's wrong something's wrong okay
26:17what maybe this maybe this maybe this
26:20maybe this maybe this maybe okay now
26:21what happens is the the Mayes Circle and
26:25spiral right and as you lay them out you
26:29spiral inward to the gist of the matter
26:32but you have to see because you could
26:34imagine while this woman is explaining
26:35her problems to you she's talking about
26:38things about the company and her
26:40relationship with the company that might
26:41be unsettling to you so you're sitting
26:43there thinking well she's laying out her
26:45problems maybe you're getting defensive
26:47well that's not true the company's
26:48better than that that's an unfair
26:50accusation so you're feeling on the spot
26:52plus you want to jump in with your you
26:54know with your solution because you want
26:55to show that you're bigger than the
26:57problem that she's showing or maybe
26:59you're secretly attracted to her and you
27:00want to be a white knight I mean there
27:02can be 50 things you're sitting there
27:04thinking about what you're going to say
27:05next because you want to play dominance
27:07or maybe you think that's what you
27:08should do because you're a boss and it's
27:10like there's a lot of things that'll
27:11interfere with listening But but so you
27:14learn you say just shut up ask stupid
27:18questions until really until the person
27:21that you're listening to has specified
27:23the problem now if you're very fortunate
27:26both of you will convert on that and
27:28it'll just become clear think oh you and
27:31you pointed this out this is what that's
27:34really all about now the person may be
27:36discovering too that they were resistant
27:38to that conclusion they you know because
27:40the fundamental threat is more key to
27:43their self-esteem that they to their
27:45conception of themsel then allowed them
27:48to be comfortable before they get to the
27:50actual point which is where they're
27:52going to be most vulnerable they're
27:54going to throw out a bunch of screen
27:56concerns just to see if you can be
27:59trusted with something that will reveal
28:01their vulnerability and they're even
28:03doing that to themselves it's like dare
28:05I tell the truth about this situation
28:07because I've betrayed myself before so
28:09maybe not you're so right they they test
28:12you to the on the way to the truth to
28:13see if how you'll respond yes and
28:15they're testing themselves too and you
28:18know and you can facilitate that see if
28:20you facilitate that by calm listening
28:23then you're modeling the fact that
28:24whatever the hell they have as a problem
28:27isn't so terrifying that you have to
28:29avoid it and run away yeah right right
28:32it's so interesting what what was
28:33actually revealed because this person
28:35that works in one of my marketing teams
28:37in a different company where there's a
28:38CEO said to me um it's the work she they
28:41were doing that was causing them the the
28:43iies and that's the reason they wanted
28:45to leave Etc and I asked them the
28:47question after about 30 minutes when was
28:49the time you were most happy in the in
28:50the business they revealed to me that
28:52the time they were most happy was when
28:54they were with me overseas at the very
28:58beginning and what that really revealed
29:00at at its Essence was there had been a
29:03change in the proximity to me and the
29:05real meaning of the work and they now
29:08felt like they were doing trivial things
29:09their happiest time was when they were
29:11right next to me doing the most
29:12important stuff the so the most
29:14difficult problems they were solving the
29:16most difficult problems when they were
29:17most challenged and they were they were
29:19so really the fix wasn't what they
29:22thought it was the fix and then now they
29:23actually text me I sent the message to
29:25one of my team members last night saying
29:27I just don't I want to keep keep their
29:29identity so let's say they were with me
29:31in Canada they text me when they were
29:33most happy they text me last night
29:34saying I feel like Canada Jenny again
29:38right and all the adjustment that had to
29:40be made was getting them back close to
29:42bigger challenges so they wanted to be
29:43closer to the front line as it turned
29:45out when Freud first developed
29:48Psychotherapy he developed this
29:50technique of free
29:52association okay so all free association
29:54is and this is what for this is why
29:56people put put Freud put people on the
29:58couch and sat be behind them see if I'm
30:03face to face with you and I'm laying out
30:06the problem
30:07space just what you're signaling to me
30:10by your face might stop me from fully
30:13revealing the truth because maybe you'll
30:14raise an eyebrow or you there'll be a
30:16micro um expression of disgust or
30:19contempt or you'll look away or cuz I'm
30:21going to be evaluating you to see how
30:24you're reacting morally to my
30:26Revelations so Freud just hid himself he
30:29and and I I don't think that's strictly
30:31necessary
30:33but but but it's a very wise intuition
30:36and you can imagine how it would be
30:39helpful so now I think the counter to
30:42that is you can signal to someone who
30:46you're talking to like open reception of
30:50the message they're receiving right it's
30:52just that and kids love this right one
30:54of the things kids are doing all the
30:56time is testing you to see if you're
30:57paying attention and they will modify
30:59their behavior in any way imaginable to
31:02get attention there's no it's because
31:04there's no difference between attention
31:06and love by the way like there's no
31:08difference and so I don't think you have
31:10to hide yourself from your client but
31:12that's why Freud did it now what Freud
31:14noticed and the psychoanalysts noticed
31:16is that if you let people free
31:20associate the the topics that they
31:22picked would be linked to one another
31:25that reminds me of this that reminds me
31:27of this that reminds me of this now
31:29obviously because people aren't just
31:31emitting random noises there's a reason
31:34the things they're revealing are linked
31:37there's some implicit similarity that
31:39they're striving toward now often
31:41what'll happen if you listen to your
31:43wife for example she's laying out a
31:45bunch of problems and it'll spiral it'll
31:47remind her of something this off this
31:49happened with Freud if you got to the
31:51gist of it it would remind people of
31:53something that happened to them much
31:54earlier in their life and often
31:56something that was trauma atic that so A
32:00trauma is a problem you encounter in
32:02your life that's quite deep so that it
32:05unsettles you that you do not resolve so
32:08it's like it imagine that in your
32:10bedroom there were holes that you could
32:13fall through into you know into trouble
32:16and so you want to make a map of where
32:18all the holes are so that you can walk
32:21through the landscape without falling
32:23into the pit now it' be better if you
32:25just fixed the holes but but at least
32:27you have the landscape mapped out well a
32:30trauma is a a trauma is a hole that
32:32hasn't been filled in and so maybe you
32:35if you had a trauma when you were four
32:37you hit a wall and be you couldn't
32:39resolve the trauma that's no different
32:41than not maturing in relationship to
32:44that problem so what you have at hand
32:47there are the only the tools that you
32:48develop by the time you were four now
32:51then you might encounter a situation
32:53where that's reminiscent of that so for
32:56example
32:58someone might sayi had a problem with my
33:00boss I have a recurring problem with my
33:02boss and so you listen to he says that
33:04that reminds me exactly of what my
33:05father did when I you know in this
33:07situation when I was a kid and so the
33:09reason the person is reacting to their
33:11boss in a negative way is because
33:13they're using the same conceptual
33:15structure that they used to construe
33:17their father when they were four you'll
33:19see this in marriages all the time like
33:22if you have a recurring problem with
33:23your partner that's that that that you
33:26really can't
33:27understand now it might be
33:29your fixation at some developmental
33:33stage that's the problem like she's
33:35interacting with you in a way that
33:38elicits your 13-year-old self
33:40consistently but she also might be
33:43reacting to you in a way that elicits
33:45her 13-year-old self and so then but if
33:48you listen to her she'll get to that and
33:51then she'll tell you the story and
33:55then sometimes she'll be able to figure
33:57out what to do about that herself or
33:59sometimes you'll have to discuss it but
34:01it almost always results in tears almost
34:05always and I think the reason for that
34:07is think that what happens is when
34:08people break down in tears so children
34:10cry quite often and they cry when they
34:13encounter an impediment that they can't
34:16surmount and I think what tears do is
34:18dissolve you to the state of
34:21neurological plasticity that
34:23characterizes Early Childhood so that
34:25you can learn now people don't like that
34:28right that reversion it's humiliating
34:30but you know you have to break that's
34:33the crying the the crying is an
34:35indication that the current conceptual s
34:38structure is insufficient it has to die
34:42then the tears come right and then now
34:44you're prepared neurologically to learn
34:46something new and that'll be whatever
34:47comes out of the discussion and that'll
34:49replace that old conceptual structure
34:52that's outdated and immature with a new
34:55somewhat fragile concept Cal structure
34:57right and then the person will try that
34:59out a couple of times like maybe you
35:02this is something where you have it's
35:03like something that's just come out of a
35:04 you have to be very careful when
35:06you negotiate with your partner because
35:08you know maybe they'll decide that
35:10they'll try a new tactic that you you
35:12have both agreed on but the first 30
35:15times they Implement that new tactic
35:18first of all they won't do it very well
35:20because it's new and second if you
35:21punish it it'll kill it right away yes
35:25so you're describing my relationship
35:26very accurately because I am someone who
35:30in the mid so what's my my sort of
35:33attachment style
35:34I grew up in a household where my
35:38parents were very were at each other a
35:40lot it was fighting arguing so I learned
35:42very early on that relationships are
35:43like prison right so I wanted to
35:46Commitment I ran from commitment my
35:48whole life I met someone who had an
35:50opposite attachment style where whenever
35:52things get a little bit Rocky she wants
35:54to like latch on in a sense like she
35:56really wants to make sure that I she's
35:58got my attention yeah for example I
36:00could come home and say one word that
36:02shows that I'm focused on my work and
36:04then suddenly she's like fying for my
36:06attention that makes me want to run and
36:08that makes her want to chase right right
36:10and so then she'll you know she'll get
36:12triggered and then she'll kind of
36:13retreat and be it's quote unquote like
36:15the word sulking is often used um so we
36:18came up with a system where I said to
36:20her when you feel triggered by me not
36:23giving you the attention you want and we
36:25you end up spiraling can you just try
36:27and tell me as soon as possible yeah
36:29instead of like the 7h hour silence yeah
36:32um so that was the mechanism we came up
36:34with and then the first time she did
36:36that I was as you said very conscious of
36:38making sure I didn't react badly to it
36:41or get triggered by it right so you're
36:43you're describing the process I've been
36:45through entirely yeah well this happens
36:47this happens to everyone and those those
36:48suks let's say that's that's a
36:51non-verbal threat response right right
36:54and and you want to replace that with a
36:56more differentiated practical and more
36:59immediate strategy you know and so you
37:02know one of the things that I've seen
37:04for example with my wife is that um the
37:08periods of time where she gets upset
37:10shrink and shrink and shrink and shrink
37:12because she can get from the problem to
37:15the verbalizable statement of the
37:17problem and the solution way way faster
37:20but that that takes just from continual
37:22practice continual attention it's like
37:24oh I'm upset okay well what am upset
37:27about here's a bunch of things that I
37:28might be upset about okay which of those
37:30are focal like this is something you can
37:32learn you know but you have to you have
37:34to admit you're upset and you also have
37:36to understand that you don't know why
37:40because one of the things that'll happen
37:41in a marriage with any close relation
37:43with any relationship is like well if
37:45you and I talk and we hit a pit it's I
37:49would rather that it's your fault right
37:52because then you have to take the
37:54conceptual structure and you have to
37:56allowed to die and you have to cry and
37:58you have something to learn and it's you
38:00and it's an indication that you're
38:01insufficient it's way more convenient
38:03for me if it's you plus I get to feel
38:06moral Superior and like I have myself
38:08under control and that I've you know
38:10mastered the universe and also women
38:13also in some ways want that from men
38:15because they want the men to be
38:17competent and so men will pretend to be
38:20more competent than they are it's like
38:23you want to find out what the problem is
38:24because then you can solve it and and
38:26one of the things you have to consider
38:28is that you're you're the problem maybe
38:31you're not but maybe you are now you
38:34might say well why should you undergo
38:36the cataclysmic Revelation that you're
38:38the problem and the answer is because
38:40you could stop being the problem like
38:42that's the payoff because you might say
38:44well why why attend to your wife why
38:46fight and the answer is so you don't
38:48have to fight again see and I know this
38:51so I'm a very agreeable person I don't
38:53like conflict like I'll do almost
38:56anything to not to paper it over though
38:59that's the thing to to fix it but the
39:02reason that I'll engage in conflict is
39:04because I know it isn't a theory I know
39:08that conflict delayed is conflict
39:11multiplied and so if I do have a problem
39:13with someone I want to note it get it on
39:17the table fight it through to the bloody
39:21bottom fix it and move on and there's a
39:24you know that's that's a lot of
39:27emotional stress and complex
39:31reconceptualization and retooling and
39:33people would rather avoid that you know
39:35because you know you come home from work
39:37and your mind is on something whatever
39:39the hell it is and then this like snake
39:41pops up and you think do we really have
39:45to deal with this now it's like well
39:49maybe and if not now when and that's
39:52something you can also negotiate you
39:54know like I can give you an example of
39:55that so
39:57there was a time a very long time where
39:59my daughter was insanely ill and
40:02suffering brutally and deteriorating at
40:05the same time and that's overwhelming by
40:07definition because a problem you can't
40:09solve is overwhelming and then so the
40:11question arises well how do you deal
40:12with a problem that's overwhelming that
40:14you can't
40:15solve without making it worse so one of
40:18the things that Tammy and I did was we
40:19made rules it's like we didn't talk
40:21about Michaela after 8:00 at night it
40:23was just off the table because we knew
40:27well are are you going to are you going
40:29to go to sleep are you going to need
40:30some sleep tonight like if we're going
40:32to battle this for like decades we
40:35better not wear ourselves out okay how
40:38not to well let's make some rules
40:40they're like negotiating rules and you
40:42you can do this this is good advice to
40:46the degree you can give people advice
40:47about a relationship here's something to
40:49understand about your marriage okay you
40:51are going to have to listen to your wife
40:5390 minutes a week okay and you might as
40:56well just
40:56get that through your thick skull now
40:59why if you listen to her enough you can
41:01make peace and you can play so there's a
41:04huge benefit if you don't listen to her
41:07that will
41:09accumulate and you'll listen to her in
41:11divorce court like you will eventually
41:13listen and at some point you'll pay for
41:16the privilege of doing so right because
41:18there'll be other people involved and
41:19then the backlog will be so high that
41:22you might never escape from it why don't
41:24men like to listen
41:27well often because the insufficiencies
41:30are pointed at
41:31them you know and and and sometimes
41:34especially if the woman let's say and
41:36this can go both ways let's be sure
41:37about this but we'll we might as well re
41:39revoke revert to the stereotypes and I
41:42think it's fair because women are more
41:43threat sensitive so they're more likely
41:45to bring up problems now that's the
41:48disadvantage is they bring up problems
41:50that don't exist because that's a false
41:52positive but the advantage is they bring
41:54up problems before your sensitive enough
41:56to see them and so this is very
41:58important if you think about the role of
42:00women is the woman is closer to the
42:02infant than
42:04you okay so you're you know doing
42:06whatever the hell you're doing you're
42:08concentrating on your career you know
42:10you're not especially when the infant's
42:11under a year old you're a step removed
42:14now and good you can be dealing with the
42:16external world but she's concentrating
42:18on the little kids and one of the things
42:20you want to hear from her is what the
42:22hell's wrong with the kids before you're
42:23wise enough to see it now the price you
42:25pay for that is she might be shorting
42:27out about things that don't exist so you
42:29know and this is especially true if your
42:31wife is high in neuroticism and it could
42:33be true if the husband is too but as I
42:35said that's the more stereotypical
42:36situation so why listen to get to the
42:39signal now will she get to the signal
42:42yes although she might not be very good
42:44at that and it might take a lot of
42:45listening but if you listen long enough
42:47she'll get better and better at it until
42:49she'll get like really good at it and
42:51then the time between the emergence of
42:54the problem and the solution will just
42:56it'll collapse to the point where it's
42:57virtually immediate now that can take
43:00that's a very high level of Mastery that
43:02can take a very long time but then you
43:04know you also want to put forward to
43:06your wife and yourself the proposition
43:08that you're better than you are which is
43:10well I can okay I get the problem I can
43:12solve it it's like no you probably don't
43:14get the problem and even if you did it
43:16isn't necessarily the case that you
43:18could solve it and so you have to put up
43:20with the fact that you're going to have
43:21to be dragged through the mud uh cuz
43:23she's going to point to you know maybe
43:25her kids up set because you're a tyrant
43:28and you probably are a tyrant to some
43:30degree you know clomping around
43:32overconfident and all that and so she's
43:34going to poke you well maybe you're this
43:36is how you're stupid and maybe this is
43:38how you're stupid and maybe this is how
43:40you're long list of potential ways and
43:43actual ways you could be stupid so you
43:46have to listen to that
43:48now your wife has to act in good faith
43:51you know one of the things that Tammy
43:53and I did when we first got married
43:54because I I thought a lot of this
43:56through before we got married I said
43:58look you know if we're going to do this
44:00you you have to tell me the truth I
44:02don't care what it is you I'll tell you
44:04the truth but you have to tell me the
44:06truth I don't care what the truth is but
44:10it has to be true right and so that's
44:13without that you get nowhere and you
44:15can't trust your partner either and so
44:18your partner has to be all in that's why
44:20you have a marriage vow because the
44:22marriage vow is basically this this is
44:24The Vow no matter what you tell me I
44:27won't run
44:28away and that's a of a vow man
44:32because when when someone unveils their
44:34whole heart they unveil themselves all
44:36the way down to hell it's not pleasant
44:40it's awful and so they need to know that
44:43you will not run away and that's a vow
44:45because what do you know look the
44:48person's always going to be thinking
44:51always if you really knew who I was you
44:53wouldn't love me you wouldn't be with me
44:55and you know
44:57hey fair enough because people are full
44:59of snakes and if all those snakes were
45:02revealed perhaps the logical thing to do
45:04would run would be to run and so then
45:07you might not you might say well why not
45:09run it's like well you want to run from
45:10everyone for the rest of your life you
45:12want to forgo the advantages of a
45:13permanent relationship and you're full
45:15of snakes too so you're both making a
45:18Bad
45:19Bet and so you make the Bad Bet based
45:23based on the idea that if you are
45:25faithful and you are truthful that you
45:27can resolve the issues and you can it's
45:29a good deal resolving
45:32issues much of what you've talked about
45:34stems back to Childhood trauma and
45:36things that happen in our our formative
45:38years I often wonder those holes in the
45:40bedroom floor you describe the early
45:43traumas can we they're often in the
45:45bedroom floor by the way yeah you bet
45:48can we ever fill those or can we just
45:50put planks of wood over oh no no no you
45:52you can't put planks of wood over them
45:53you have to fill them and what you do oh
45:56and and you can do this you know let's
45:58say you were bullied repeatedly when you
46:00were a kid okay you're probably still
46:02being bullied because if you
46:04didn't being a bully victim is a stable
46:09trait so the great analysis of bullies
46:12that have been done Dan olis in Sweden
46:14did this he was a great psychologist he
46:17analyzed bullying behavior and Bully
46:19victim Behavior so we defined bullying
46:21very carefully you're a bully if you use
46:24power dispropor iately so like if I'm 12
46:28and I'm picking on someone my own size
46:31I'm not a bully right cuz there's a the
46:33risk to me is commensurate to the risk
46:35to them that's just aggression that's
46:38just competition and even if it's
46:40violent it's not bullying a bully is
46:42when I'm 12 and you're eight or when
46:44there's two of us and one of you or when
46:46I get you in a position where you're
46:48completely vulnerable and can't defend
46:50yourself disproportionate use of force
46:53right bully victim is someone the
46:55bullies will check out imagine a bully
46:57comes into a room full of kids he'll
46:59poke at all the kids and one of the kids
47:01will manifest a disproportionate
47:02emotional response well then it's like
47:05he just zeros in on that and those are
47:07often kids who are higher in neuroticism
47:09or who are fragile for other reasons and
47:12then that can become permanent and both
47:14the bullies and the bully victims have a
47:16negative long-term developmental
47:18trajectory the bullies tend to become
47:21criminal and alienated on that front
47:24especially as they move into High School
47:25and the bully victims tend to become
47:27depressed anxious and dependent if you
47:30have a partner who's been a bully victim
47:32for example that's going to be brought
47:33into your marriage and then one of the
47:35things that's going to happen is every
47:36time you try to have a dispute which is
47:39to actually think and solve a problem
47:41they're going to see you through the
47:42bully template they're going to treat
47:44you like you're a bully they're going to
47:46accuse you of being a bully they're
47:47going to bring up all the times before
47:49when you acted like a bully and then
47:51you're going to have to defend yourself
47:53and part of the reason that people can't
47:55listen is cuz they also don't know how
47:56to defend themselves it's like
47:58especially if you're here's 15 pieces of
48:00evidence that you're a bully it's like
48:02can you counter those maybe what if
48:05you're not very articulate you know it
48:08might take you two weeks to think up how
48:10to argue yourself out of that plus
48:12you're going to be doubtful about it you
48:14know so those are very complicated
48:16things to work through but you can
48:18listen if you listen the person will
48:21dispense with some of their accusations
48:23by themselves the accusations that can't
48:26be dispensed with though now those are
48:28questions you know maybe your kid's
48:30upset when they he or she's interacting
48:32with you and your wife says well you're
48:34too hard on them it's like well are you
48:38well it's time for you to go away for
48:40like a week and meditate on that right
48:44and that's that's soul searching right
48:48you're going to go down to the bottom of
48:49your heart it's like well are you a
48:51bully are you a bully like your father
48:53was a bully you know are you bully like
48:56a friend who was a reprobate that you
48:58admired and tried to copy was a bully
49:00you know you have to see because maybe
49:03you are maybe you should stop but then
49:05you also have to figure out how you
49:06would be if you weren't being a bully
49:08then your wife can help you you know and
49:10this is another good rule for couple
49:12conflict like let's say I'm unhappy with
49:14you say so I come and tell you that you
49:17can ask me okay what do you
49:20want if I could give you what you
49:23wanted what would it be well I don't
49:26know it's like no sorry I cannot hit a
49:29Target you won't specify let's discuss
49:31it at least we got to have a Target here
49:34and so this is also if you're an
49:36employee you got to know this if you're
49:37an employee you're going to your boss
49:39with a problem why don't you go with a
49:41solution too you know and if you're the
49:44sort of employee who goes to your boss
49:46with a solution you'll racket yourself
49:49up the hierarchy if you're in a halfways
49:51decent business you will ratchet
49:53yourself up the hierarchy so fast you
49:55can't believe it cuz you'll get a
49:57reputation as the person who can solve
49:59the problem so and you know and you can
50:02actually play with this and in in your
50:04marriage because one of the things that
50:06you can do for example is well let's say
50:08you say something that irritated your
50:10wife okay and then you can say okay
50:12she'll say well that really bothered me
50:14it's like okay it's an open question why
50:17maybe she's too goddamn sensitive and
50:18maybe you're too much of a son of a
50:20 it's like who knows right but you
50:22can ask her okay if I had said what you
50:25wanted me to say in that situation what
50:28would have I said now that's a hard
50:31question she has to think about that
50:32it's like well what would what would
50:33have worked and then she'll say you know
50:36well maybe you could have said this and
50:37then you can say okay let me say it now
50:41then she has and but it's sort of like
50:43let me say it it'll be sort of
50:46fake it'll be a first pass
50:48approximation you're putting words in my
50:51mouth but let's assume that I'm trying
50:53to do something better stupidly and
50:55badly to begin with you know with an eye
50:57to mastering it over 50 repetitions so
51:00but I'll start by just saying it so
51:02she'll tell you what to say and you can
51:04say it now if you're absolutely 100%
51:08unwilling to say it because you think it
51:09violates your conscience that's a whole
51:11different issue that means there's a
51:13deeper discussion to be had but maybe
51:15you could try it you know you could try
51:17it out for size and maybe she could see
51:19if that sort of satisfied her and now
51:22you've got a rubric for for how that
51:25interaction might go in the future let's
51:27make it
51:28concrete you come home at the end of a
51:31workday okay there should be there's a
51:35right way of doing that that you have to
51:36negotiate with your wife you know maybe
51:38she rushes to the door and meets you
51:40with all the problems of the day okay
51:42that's probably not a great strategy you
51:44know because you're already up to here
51:46you're tired so is she likely from
51:49whatever she was doing maybe maybe she
51:50was at work too you can't meet each
51:53other when you're both tired every
51:55single day for the rest of your life
51:57with nothing but a ball of problems
51:59partly because if you do that 50 times
52:03you're going to view the person as just
52:05a a bunch of snakes that are coming at
52:07you that's not good even if the problems
52:10that are being pointed to are real you
52:12know you might think okay so you come
52:14home after
52:15work what would be the best way for that
52:18to unfold and you have to negotiate that
52:20and I would say we you know let's
52:21parameterize that a bit you're probably
52:24hungry well you don't want to talk to
52:26someone this is another great rule don't
52:28talk to your partner about something
52:29complicated when they're hungry it's not
52:31going to work so maybe you come home you
52:34have something to eat you kick off your
52:36shoes maybe you take 10 minutes for
52:38yourself and then you can talk but you
52:40you want to get that right or maybe you
52:43come home you meet each other at the
52:45door she gives you a hug you have
52:47something to eat you relax for a minute
52:48maybe you have a shower but then you've
52:50already negotiated about when you're
52:51going to have a conversation and you're
52:53going to be prepared for it now people
52:55do this in their business you don't just
52:57randomly discuss a bunch of problems at
53:00your business if it's running reasonably
53:01well you have a meeting it's
53:03parameterized you kind of have an agenda
53:05you have to do that at home you have
53:08your your home is also a small business
53:11and it has to be run like that and you
53:13have to spend 90 minutes at least 90
53:16minutes a week with your wife just
53:18running the damn business and I can tell
53:21you if you don't do that you'll never
53:22get to the play ever cuz maybe you you
53:25know you'll be romantically interested
53:27in each other and you you want to spend
53:29some time together but there's a bunch
53:30of problems brewing and your wife will
53:32definitely do this will absolutely
53:34happen is that when you're trying to be
53:36interested in each other these things
53:37will come into her mind and distract her
53:39and she'll bring them up and then you'll
53:40get pissed off because it's like well
53:42we're supposed to be having fun at we're
53:44supposed to be attending to each other
53:45why are you bringing that up and the
53:47answer
53:48is well we're together and these are
53:51problems we haven't set aside time to
53:53deal with them the the reason you should
53:55listen to your wife is because if you
53:57listen to her enough she'll tell you
53:58what's wrong and what she wants and then
54:00you can fix what's wrong and you can
54:01give her what she
54:04wants in your practice have you ever
54:06encountered those holes in the bedroom
54:08those childhood traumas that you
54:09realized at some point when you stared
54:11into the patient's eyes they could never
54:13solve
54:15yes
54:17yes yeah a bottomless
54:20Abyss yeah it's
54:23awful yeah I was in shsu ations where
54:25you know I'd get to the bottom of it I
54:27thought and
54:29then it was like Dante's so Dante's
54:32Inferno for everyone who is reading
54:35listening you you should read that book
54:36Dante's Inferno is a Topography of
54:40hell so underneath every problem is
54:43layers of problems right right to the
54:45bottom for Dante the worst problem was
54:49betrayal right and the reason betrayals
54:52the worst problem is like if you and I
54:53want to have a relationship we have have
54:55trust each other and betrayal is the
54:57violation of the trust upon which
55:00relationships are predicated so it blows
55:02apart everything it's the lowest level
55:04of hell for Dante the bottom of hell was
55:07filled with betrayers and that's right
55:09that's childhood sexual abuse like it's
55:11the ultimate betrayal right it's the
55:14it's the a child sexual predator is
55:16someone who takes the role of Guardian
55:19to be the wolf right it's the worst form
55:23of betrayal and so it just devastates
55:25children and because they're actually
55:27faced with the problem of malevolence at
55:29a very early age and they what the it's
55:32like you're four and now you see the
55:35bottom of Hell well that's trauma and
55:38the only the way you treat that by the
55:39way is you walk people through a
55:41Topography of hell that's what you do
55:45and and you can do that well let's say
55:47you were abused when you were a kid okay
55:49so what's your problem well your problem
55:50is you've seen Into the Heart of
55:52Darkness that's your problem and just
55:54blew you into into pieces could people
55:56really be like that is that my
56:00father right is that my uncle how could
56:03he do that well that's you're gazing
56:05into the face of malevolence itself you
56:08have to develop a philosophy of Good and
56:10Evil it's a religious philosophy
56:11essentially because a philosophy of Good
56:13and Evil is a religious philosophy those
56:15are the same thing you have to you have
56:18to develop a philosophy of evil and then
56:19you have to understand how you combat
56:21that and that's very complicated how do
56:24you combat evil with truth with love
56:27with beauty you have to start to embody
56:29that you know or maybe it's even worse
56:32you're traumatized because you did
56:33something like brutal seriously brutal
56:36and maybe you enjoyed it that's a very
56:38common Pathway to post-traumatic stress
56:40disorder for people and that
56:41post-traumatic stress disorder occurs
56:43when you have a very large hole that you
56:46know gapes large enough to swallow virt
56:49virtually everything that hasn't been
56:51fixed or papered over you do that by
56:54finding your way out of hell and that's
56:55what happens in The Inferno too Dante is
56:57guided through Hell by Virgil who's the
56:59spirit that guides you through hell
57:01that's a good way of thinking about it
57:03so and every problem even the problems
57:06your wife brings to you especially if
57:07they repeat there are levels underneath
57:10that and at the bottom there's a
57:11betrayal something like that there's
57:13some bit of Hell in there somewhere and
57:15so and sometimes you know if you go all
57:17the way to the bottom and you solve that
57:20bottom problem you'll solve a whole
57:21bunch of peripheral
57:23problems so
57:25in there's a movie Apocalypse Now that's
57:27about a journey to the Heart of Darkness
57:29and that's what the book is about con
57:31Joseph Conrad's book and there's a
57:32documentary called Heart of Darkness
57:35that describes the making of Apocalypse
57:37Now and the people who made Apocalypse
57:40Now which was a movie about a journey to
57:41the Heart of Darkness it had an effect
57:43on them while they were making the movie
57:45and all of the people that were acting
57:47in the movie and directing and producing
57:48and financing all went on a journey to
57:51the Heart of Darkness inside and it
57:54virtually killed them one of them had a
57:55heart attack one of them went completely
57:57broke like they just had a catastrophe
58:00when they were making this movie they
58:01fell into its archetypal clutches Heart
58:04of Darkness is the name of the
58:05documentary it's fascinating have you
58:07been on that Journey yourself yeah yeah
58:12yeah sort of I would say in some ways
58:15permanently when I when back when I was
58:1820 something like that 20 I started
58:21studying atrocity right and so I was
58:24I've always been interested in the
58:27Holocaust osz in particular but it's a
58:30very particular
58:31interest like
58:33evil Nazi
58:36Germany
58:38owitz prison guard prison guard who
58:41enjoyed his work right because my my
58:44question was how could you be an owitz
58:47prison guard who enjoyed his work now
58:49one answer is well you're just like a
58:51demon from another planet who's so
58:53unlike me that I don't even have to
58:55worry about it and that's a very
58:57convenient answer but it's not
58:59true many many many many of the people
59:03not all many of the people who were
59:04involved in the Nazi atrocities were
59:07perfectly Ordinary People they were just
59:10like you and you think no I wouldn't do
59:12that it's like that's not what the
59:15evidence
59:16suggests the evidence suggests that the
59:18vast majority of people in Nazi Germany
59:21went along with it now not all of them
59:23were dragged into to the abyss itself
59:26but plenty were and if you think you
59:28wouldn't have been one of them that just
59:30means it's highly likely that you would
59:32have because you have no idea what
59:34you're capable of there's a great book
59:36about that it's terrifying book called
59:37Ordinary men and it's about the
59:40initiation of a police Battalion from
59:43Germany who went to Poland after the
59:46Germans marched into Poland now these
59:48were ordinary men they were policemen
59:50middle-aged who had grown up before the
59:53Nazi propaganda mil got going okay so
59:56they weren't indoctrinated Nazis from
59:58like the time they were four they're
01:00:00just ordinary middle class guys plus
01:00:03their Commander told them in Poland when
01:00:06they were starting to do military work
01:00:08even though they were civilian policemen
01:00:10that they could go home that they didn't
01:00:12have to do this job and that there would
01:00:14be no repercussions and in fact out of
01:00:16the Battalion a number of men right at
01:00:19the beginning said I'm not doing this
01:00:21and they went home Mo the vast majority
01:00:24went l
01:00:25now why okay so now these policemen are
01:00:28in Poland and they've been told a story
01:00:30which is that you know Germany's at War
01:00:32and the reason for that is that evil
01:00:34Jews have conspired up a you know a
01:00:36conspiracy and they've United the
01:00:38Western World against us and they're a
01:00:39fifth column within the country and your
01:00:41patriotic duty is to root them out now
01:00:43that we're in Poland and you're saving
01:00:45the Fatherland and there's going to be
01:00:47Dirty Work associated with it and do you
01:00:49really want to leave all that to your
01:00:51compatriots you know your companions
01:00:53your your guys cuz like if you and I are
01:00:57together and someone that we're working
01:00:59for presents us with a dirty job and I
01:01:01say well I'm not doing that well then I
01:01:03leave it to you so there's a kind of
01:01:06betrayal that's built into that now the
01:01:08guys that left thought I don't care I'm
01:01:10not doing this but most people didn't
01:01:12and part of the reason they didn't do it
01:01:13is because they were loyal to their to
01:01:15their peers by the end of this which
01:01:18took months these guys were taking n
01:01:21naked pregnant women out into the middle
01:01:22of fields and shooting them in the back
01:01:24of the head
01:01:25like and be becoming violently ill
01:01:27because of doing so and tearing
01:01:28themselves into shreds internally like
01:01:31sick sick at
01:01:32heart but doing it and that's a it's a
01:01:35terrible thing to look at and I started
01:01:37looking at that like it's 40 years ago
01:01:40now you know was
01:01:42shocking and so what did I discover well
01:01:45I discovered a lot of things I
01:01:46discovered that the ro road to
01:01:48totalitarian hell and atrocity is paved
01:01:52with lies like lies are the pathway to
01:01:55Hell really like practically and
01:01:59metaphysically and so one of the things
01:02:01I decided this was in 1985 was that I
01:02:04was not I was going to stop lying what
01:02:07does that mean
01:02:08practically lies ruin your
01:02:10life there's so you will not accept a
01:02:13white lie you won't C well look a white
01:02:15lie is worse than better than a black
01:02:17lie but
01:02:19look if you're really telling the truth
01:02:22you're serving Truth at every level of
01:02:24analysis simultaneously it's right so if
01:02:28if my words are landing properly they're
01:02:30going to be the words that work right
01:02:32now and tomorrow and a week from now and
01:02:35a month from now and they're going to
01:02:36work for me and they're going to work
01:02:37for you so a true statement has levels
01:02:41of application and a white lie is a
01:02:43statement that's true at one level and
01:02:45false at another now you might not be
01:02:48able to maybe you don't have the
01:02:50wherewithal at that moment to come up
01:02:51with the statement that satisfies all
01:02:53the truth conditions at every level and
01:02:55so you default to the best you can
01:02:57manage you know your wife says do I look
01:02:59fat in this dress you know or or maybe
01:03:03she says how do I look in this dress and
01:03:05you think you don't like that dress and
01:03:06you know the easy thing to do is to say
01:03:09I love it dear whatever you want or you
01:03:11know of course not but that's and that's
01:03:14a white lie but that's not the optimal
01:03:17answer like a better answer to that is
01:03:20um don't ask me questions like
01:03:23that and then you can have a discussion
01:03:25about it see the thing is I've done I
01:03:27bought a lot of clothes for my wife I
01:03:29like clothes shopping for my wife and I
01:03:32tell her how I think she looks and the
01:03:35advantage to that is that if I tell her
01:03:37that she looks good she knows I mean it
01:03:40right I'm not muddying up the water and
01:03:45if I have to say something I mean I it's
01:03:47not like I the number of times that I've
01:03:50told her that I'm not happy with the way
01:03:52she's presenting it like it's it's
01:03:53virtually that virtually never happens
01:03:55she actually has extremely good taste
01:03:58and so it's just an example but if
01:04:01you're forced into a situation where you
01:04:03have to tell a white lie there's snakes
01:04:05somewhere that you haven't dealt with
01:04:08and maybe the best you can do and that's
01:04:10Leonard Cohen the poet said there's no
01:04:12decent place to stand in a massacre you
01:04:14may have already compromised yourself to
01:04:17the point where in that situation the
01:04:18best you can do is a lie but that means
01:04:21that you shouldn't have Bloody well
01:04:22being there to begin with and the
01:04:23antidot in many respects is honesty
01:04:26further Upstream honesty with yourself
01:04:28and others further Upstream you can get
01:04:30yourself in positions where all of your
01:04:32options are bad and what that means is
01:04:35exactly as you pointed out you did
01:04:37something Upstream man now one of the
01:04:39things you do in therapy is you find out
01:04:41what people did Upstream you know and
01:04:44you'll find this in your discussions
01:04:45with your wife there'll be a problem and
01:04:48as you Circle towards it you'll see
01:04:51oh this is where I made a mistake
01:04:55right this is what's wrong with me and
01:04:57then you can even you can even find out
01:04:58if you look you can you can go back into
01:05:00your past and you can think oh yeah
01:05:03that's when I made that decision I knew
01:05:05when I made it it was bad decision you
01:05:08know and your life is full of the
01:05:11consequences of decisions you took in
01:05:13the past that put you on the wrong
01:05:15path and you said we were talking about
01:05:17repairing things what you do is you go
01:05:19back to where you made the mistake you
01:05:21figure out what the mistake
01:05:23was you know there's this cartoon Trope
01:05:25that there's an angel on one shoulder
01:05:27and a devil on the other well you come
01:05:29to a crossroad that's also where you
01:05:30meet the devil go this way or that way
01:05:33if you go the wrong direction your life
01:05:36will be then the consequences of that
01:05:38bad choice and then that will tangle you
01:05:41up and then you'll suffer for it then
01:05:43you have to figure out okay what's the
01:05:45suffering what's the problem when did I
01:05:47make the bad choice which road should
01:05:49have I taken that's how you fix a trauma
01:05:52you you replace the road Road you did
01:05:54take with the road you should have taken
01:05:56and now you have a road forward and once
01:05:58you have a road forward the trauma is no
01:06:00longer traumatic because you have a road
01:06:03your brain brings up the
01:06:06past because you have not specified the
01:06:09proper Road forward you go back into the
01:06:12road you took that was the wrong road
01:06:14you find out what the right Road was now
01:06:16you've you've atoned you've
01:06:21confessed you've repented and you have
01:06:24specified the proper pathway forward and
01:06:26that's what you do when you negotiate a
01:06:28solution to a problem with your wife too
01:06:30here's what we're do here's the problem
01:06:31here's what we did wrong here's what
01:06:34we'll try to do in the future and if
01:06:36that new future Map works that past
01:06:39trauma will be rendered
01:06:43irrelevant as you know because I've been
01:06:45sent thousands of messages these
01:06:46conversation cards Salah exceptionally
01:06:48quick so here's the deal I'm going to
01:06:50make with you if you join the waiting
01:06:52list which is in the description below
01:06:54you will get sent access to buy these
01:06:56conversation cards 1 hour before anybody
01:07:00else they're in limited suppli so if you
01:07:02really do want to get your hands on them
01:07:04please do add your name to the waiting
01:07:06list in the description below and you
01:07:07can find that waiting list at the
01:07:09conversation cards.com but I'll also
01:07:12include it in the description below
01:07:14wherever you're listening to this
01:07:15episode how much do you really know
01:07:17about your health for me that answer was
01:07:19simple the answer was very little until
01:07:23whoop came along as you guys know they
01:07:25sponsor this podcast but even before
01:07:27then whoop was integral for me to know
01:07:29what's going on inside my body most of
01:07:31my friends my family and my team now use
01:07:32 but I still have a few friends that
01:07:35are on the fence about getting on board
01:07:37and what I hear from some of those
01:07:38friends is that they're a little bit
01:07:39worried about what they might see in the
01:07:40data and they might feel uncomfortable
01:07:42about knowing what's going on inside
01:07:44their body if I have learned anything it
01:07:46is that knowledge is power and once I
01:07:48finally started to look at the data and
01:07:50understand how getting less sleep was
01:07:52affecting my body and how my old
01:07:54lifestyle was actually hurting my
01:07:55long-term Health everything changed for
01:07:57the better so if this is something that
01:07:59you'd like to try out head over to join.
01:08:02whoop.com
01:08:04CEO and you'll get to try whoop for 30
01:08:07days risk-free with zero commitment try
01:08:11it and let me know how you get on I was
01:08:14looking at our past conversation and I
01:08:16thought it would be interesting to see
01:08:17who the audience were that their
01:08:19demographic and the the age group were
01:08:2220 to 4 year olds really 18 to 40 year
01:08:27olds my question to you is in their
01:08:30lives in that demographics lives what do
01:08:32you think the biggest challenge is
01:08:33because your both your kids Julian and
01:08:35Michaela both fit into that that
01:08:36category as well what is the greatest
01:08:39challenge that that demographic face
01:08:42well the biggest challenges we had with
01:08:43our kids was see I think the big biggest
01:08:46challenge I had in my generation was
01:08:50negotiating the years between 13 and 15
01:08:53something like that that but my sense is
01:08:54now the biggest challenge to young
01:08:56people is negotiating the transition
01:08:59into adulthood into adulthood identity
01:09:01and I think that's partly why we
01:09:04have this terrible war in our culture
01:09:06about what constitutes identity and I
01:09:09think the reason that identity has
01:09:11become such a problem is that our
01:09:13concepts of identity are unbelievably
01:09:16unsophisticated narrow hedonistic and
01:09:20self-serving so the identity groups that
01:09:24have popped up are all you could say
01:09:27whim based identity groups they're
01:09:30sexual identity say or something
01:09:32arbitrary like SE like SE sex or race or
01:09:35ethnicity something arbitrary but the
01:09:38sexual identity groups are particularly
01:09:40interesting because the idea that that's
01:09:43your identity is predicated on the
01:09:45notion that there isn't anything more
01:09:47vital to you than your than the
01:09:49immediacy of your sexual behavior well
01:09:53you're not a sex machine you're not a
01:09:55short-term sex machine that's not what a
01:09:57human being is so if you revert to that
01:10:02all you're going to do is produce like
01:10:04anxiety hopelessness and misery it's not
01:10:07a good solution so then you might say
01:10:09well what's the solution and the
01:10:11solution is something called a
01:10:12subsidiary solution it's like so what's
01:10:14your identity well you should get your
01:10:17act together and take care of yourself
01:10:19so you have to integrate yourself you
01:10:22have to integrate across anxiety and
01:10:25hatred and pain and jealousy and fear
01:10:28and hunger and lust and all the that
01:10:31that plethora of spirits that wage war
01:10:34within you it's a lot it's a lot you
01:10:36have to bring that into a Unity okay and
01:10:39one of the things n said the famous
01:10:41German philosopher was that every Drive
01:10:44attempts to philosophize in its spirit
01:10:46so all those subsidi sub subordinate
01:10:50spirits that war inside you will try to
01:10:52dominate I'm only my anger I'm or rage
01:10:55that's the protester type you know I'm
01:10:57only my sexuality I'm only my my a my
01:11:00appetite that's the consumer model but
01:11:03all that has to be integrated and then
01:11:05you might say well integrated into what
01:11:07well integrated into a structure that
01:11:09serves all of those Spirits
01:11:12simultaneously and harmoniously across a
01:11:15long time that's maturity okay but that
01:11:18doesn't happen in
01:11:20isolation so then the next there's
01:11:23stages above that okay so the next thing
01:11:25is maybe you've got your act together
01:11:27enough so that someone can tolerate
01:11:28being around you so that so there's
01:11:31enough left over from you so you can
01:11:33play with someone else so you establish
01:11:36a relationship marriage let's say you
01:11:39invite someone else to join forces with
01:11:41you you produce a United Vision okay so
01:11:44now there's you and there's you as
01:11:46husband and it's the
01:11:48joint interplay of those that's now your
01:11:51identity okay and so now you have a role
01:11:54and you have obligations and
01:11:56responsibilities and opportunities you
01:11:58know you say well I'm constrained by my
01:12:00marriage you know there's all sorts of
01:12:02things I can't do which really means I
01:12:04can no longer in the most primitive way
01:12:07it means I can no longer immediately
01:12:09gratify my short-term whims although it
01:12:12could also be more complex in that I
01:12:13don't get to pursue the things that I
01:12:15need to pursue which means you haven't
01:12:16negotiated with your wife very well like
01:12:18if your marriage is a prison you have
01:12:20you're either very immature in what you
01:12:22want or haven't negotiated properly if
01:12:25you've done it well you've got your
01:12:27individual Unity established and then
01:12:30there's a Unity within the marriage
01:12:32that's better and why would it be better
01:12:34well you could learn to love someone and
01:12:36that would be better because getting
01:12:39outside yourself decreases your anxiety
01:12:43so we know as psychologists one of the
01:12:44things that was learned 20 years ago is
01:12:46that there's no difference between
01:12:50thinking about
01:12:51yourself and what you want and being
01:12:54miserable those are
01:12:56self-consciousness and negative emotion
01:12:59are so tightly tied together that
01:13:01they're statistically indistinguishable
01:13:03does that not raise the question about
01:13:05the decline of religion absolutely well
01:13:07that's the next level it's like okay so
01:13:09there's you now you're a husband right
01:13:11and so your identity is those two things
01:13:13in lockstep but that's not enough now
01:13:16maybe you're a father now you have kids
01:13:19now you have a whole another level of
01:13:20responsibility and opportunity to flesh
01:13:23yourself out and support and love right
01:13:27so now and then well you so you've got
01:13:30your family to together that's not
01:13:32enough you've got the community to serve
01:13:34so you want to serve the community and
01:13:36then Community scale you know maybe
01:13:38you're good in your local business and
01:13:40you have a local business organization
01:13:42and you're good in that and then well
01:13:44then there's the town level and the city
01:13:46level and the state level and the
01:13:48country level and then you know America
01:13:50is one nation under God that's the
01:13:53ultimate level of this hierarchy of
01:13:55identity and that's what should be
01:13:57served most fundamentally that's a
01:14:00definition
01:14:02okay God is that which should be served
01:14:05most fundamentally it's a definition so
01:14:07when you're thinking that b is better
01:14:10than a what you're saying even if you
01:14:13don't know it is that b is a step from a
01:14:15on the road to God that's what you're
01:14:18saying the the medieval definition a
01:14:20medieval definition of God was something
01:14:23like the sum of all that is good or the
01:14:26essence of what is good and so if you
01:14:29believe that there is a
01:14:31good then lurking behind that is the
01:14:34spirit of all that which all which all
01:14:37of that which is good that's God by
01:14:40definition now you can debate forever
01:14:42about what that is but it is something
01:14:45you live in relationship to like that's
01:14:47in escap that's absolutely inescapable
01:14:49and you might say well I don't believe
01:14:50in God and then I would say well do you
01:14:52believe in good and you'll say no I say'
01:14:54well then you can't act because you act
01:14:57towards a good or you're not
01:14:59motivated I called Simon gunning who's
01:15:02the CEO of campaign of living miserably
01:15:04it's a big man's Heth charity here and I
01:15:05said give me the updated stats he said
01:15:07to me 19 to 35-year olds which is that
01:15:10demographic that are listening to this
01:15:12predominantly um are twice as likely to
01:15:14report being in crisis than any other
01:15:17group right and the there's a reason
01:15:19it's a very straightforward reason it's
01:15:21it's literally this the more you are
01:15:23focused on
01:15:25yourself the more miserable you are it's
01:15:28it's as simple as that but that's
01:15:30society now these days we I know well
01:15:32and we're encour well and there are
01:15:34terrible forces pushing Us in that
01:15:36direction you know like I could
01:15:37attribute this to the idiocies of a
01:15:39degenerate Protestant liberalism driven
01:15:42by post-modernism but you could also
01:15:44just as easily point to consumerist
01:15:46capitalism it's like it's all about you
01:15:48it's all about what you want worse it's
01:15:51all about what you want right now worse
01:15:54it's all about what your basist
01:15:56appetites want regardless of cost right
01:15:59now well that that's the same as being
01:16:01two years old it's there's nothing about
01:16:04that that's and why do you think that's
01:16:06you anyways it's like since when did
01:16:09what you are become what the most
01:16:11idiotic part of you who cares nothing
01:16:13about anything else and any other people
01:16:15wants right now why is that you how
01:16:18about this though so this is where I'm
01:16:20trying to make a distinction
01:16:22is responsibility is a good thing but
01:16:24with responsibility sometimes comes this
01:16:27idea that it's about me my outcomes are
01:16:30about me it's all about me my success
01:16:33and failure are a consequence of me me
01:16:36me me yeah well that right right
01:16:39absolutely absolutely well that's why
01:16:41the classical Christian philosophy has
01:16:44always been that you cannot infer
01:16:47someone's moral worth by the level of
01:16:50accomplishment so the aristocrats would
01:16:52have said the Roman AR Aristocrats would
01:16:53have said well look at me like it's
01:16:55pretty obvious speaking to a slave say
01:16:58it's pretty obvious that I'm better than
01:16:59you first of all I can slap you and
01:17:02there's not a goddamn thing you can do
01:17:03about it and you have to do what I tell
01:17:05you to do and I've got all the money and
01:17:07all the stuff and I can make all the
01:17:10decisions and I have all the power
01:17:12clearly that's evidence that I'm morally
01:17:15Superior to you but didn't they believe
01:17:17that a God had granted them that
01:17:18superiority to some degree so didn't
01:17:20they often believe in Fortune as the
01:17:24sure sure of course they did that just
01:17:26made it even better it's like it's a the
01:17:29fact that I've got the power is a
01:17:31reflection of the fact that the cosmic
01:17:33order is clearly on my side and we
01:17:35believe that less now because of the
01:17:37decline of religion so we now think that
01:17:38our outcomes are more determined by our
01:17:40own actions yes but lurking underneath
01:17:43that is is there's a hidden God lurking
01:17:45underneath all that too it's just that
01:17:46the God has become subjectivity it's
01:17:48something like that when God talks to
01:17:50Moses out of the depths of the burning
01:17:52bush she says I am what I am and that's
01:17:55what every degenerate Protestant liberal
01:17:57says now I am what I am and they also
01:18:00say and if you don't go along with it
01:18:02the consequences for you are going to be
01:18:03pretty damn dismal use my pronouns adopt
01:18:07my identity play the game that the worst
01:18:09part of me insists on or else and it is
01:18:13a consequence I I said Protestant
01:18:15liberalism for a reason like as we've
01:18:18moved away from
01:18:20God we've moved into a rad
01:18:23subjectivity now the problem with that
01:18:25is that a radical subjectivity
01:18:28especially one of impulse is
01:18:30unbelievably immature and
01:18:31counterproductive it just doesn't work
01:18:34any more than a room full of
01:18:36two-year-olds Works what's the better
01:18:38idea this subsidiary structure it's the
01:18:40adoption of voluntary
01:18:42responsibility May way more complex
01:18:44identity it's like you know take on the
01:18:49load pick take someone in your life make
01:18:51a permanent relationship work it out
01:18:53have some kids serve
01:18:56your Society at all these different
01:18:58levels strive upward what's up okay
01:19:02here's the definition of
01:19:05up a better
01:19:07solution unites more situations and
01:19:11people across broader spans of time is
01:19:15this why this brings me to you're doing
01:19:18Peterson's Academy which is an online
01:19:20sort of Interactive Learning platform
01:19:22you've designed which is kind of seems
01:19:23like it's taking on this typical
01:19:25University structure I've I was on there
01:19:28I see people can sign up right now but
01:19:29why are you doing Peterson's Academy
01:19:32well um
01:19:35curiosity
01:19:37um I'm curious about virtually
01:19:39everything I started putting my lectures
01:19:41on YouTube because I was curious what'll
01:19:43happen if I use this you know so
01:19:45curiosity but then the more deliberative
01:19:49answer is I'm in a very fortunate
01:19:51position because I can meet pretty much
01:19:53anyone I want to meet and the people I
01:19:54want to meet are almost always
01:19:56interesting thinkers let's say or people
01:19:58who have done interesting things
01:20:00repeatedly in their lives and so I can
01:20:02find those people and some of them are
01:20:04very charismatic and they have lots to
01:20:06say and they I I'm providing them with a
01:20:10platform to say those things and we can
01:20:12do it at extremely high quality and very
01:20:15very low cost and we can distribute that
01:20:17to everyone and I am an educator I'm a
01:20:19professor or at least I was I'm still a
01:20:21professor
01:20:23and I it's time for the for what we've
01:20:26been doing in universities for all these
01:20:28centuries to be made available on a mass
01:20:32scale because it can be done very well
01:20:35and it can be done and it's entertaining
01:20:39to do and there's no reason not to do it
01:20:41okay so that's all on the positive side
01:20:43and then there's a sense of humor aspect
01:20:45to it too because it became impossible
01:20:48for me to work in a university and so I
01:20:51thought fine I'll go build my own
01:20:53university cuz I thought maybe there's
01:20:55something arrogant about this when the
01:20:57university came after me there was part
01:20:58of me that thought you think I need you
01:21:02it's like I don't think so I think you
01:21:06need me and if you don't want me around
01:21:08anymore we'll see who needs who now like
01:21:11I said you know I was irritated and
01:21:13peeved and maybe there's something
01:21:15arrogant about that but let's
01:21:17reconfigure it so here's one of the
01:21:19experiences I've had bringing these
01:21:21professors down to Miami this is
01:21:23especially true with the professors from
01:21:25Cambridge and Oxford like some of these
01:21:27people man they are deadly you're lucky
01:21:30to have a conversation with them they've
01:21:32been thinking a long time they're super
01:21:34smart they're wise they know their field
01:21:36they're great communicators these are
01:21:38Stellar people and their universities
01:21:40treat them terribly no respect they let
01:21:43their students walk all over them they
01:21:45pay them abysmally they treat them as if
01:21:47they're Pawns of the administration it's
01:21:50sickening and so I invite them down to
01:21:52my Miami and we we make them a good
01:21:54Financial offer and we treat them like
01:21:57people we're very pleased to have there
01:21:59and that we hope they'll come back and
01:22:02they have a really good time and they
01:22:03deliver and we say look they say well
01:22:06what what what function do you want this
01:22:08course to serve you know because maybe
01:22:10they're worried that there's a political
01:22:11agenda or something like that and our
01:22:13rule is we picked you for a reason you
01:22:16know what we're doing you tell us how to
01:22:18get the hell out of your way so that we
01:22:21can enable you to teach the course
01:22:22you've always dreamed of teaching we
01:22:25will provide you with the audience
01:22:27you've always wanted which will be
01:22:28people because they have a live audience
01:22:30and the live audience members we select
01:22:32are selected because they want to come
01:22:34and listen which is what you want for
01:22:36students and so we want to have the
01:22:38dream experience for the professor come
01:22:41talk about what you love to people who
01:22:43want to listen plus we'll provide you
01:22:45with maybe enough financial security so
01:22:49you don't have to be concerned about
01:22:50your damn University anymore which is
01:22:52also something I'm quite pleased about
01:22:55now I don't know if we can deliver on
01:22:56that but even the initial we give them
01:22:59an advance like like with a book deal
01:23:01and even the additional Advance
01:23:03generally is a sizable sum it depends to
01:23:06some degree on their following right
01:23:08because we do some economic calibration
01:23:10but I would love to be in a position
01:23:13where I could take like the best
01:23:14thousand lectures in the world bring
01:23:17them on to Peterson Academy give them
01:23:19Financial Independence because that
01:23:21would be really amusing and then to
01:23:24bring what they have to say to to
01:23:26everyone for like for almost no cost you
01:23:29first you've taken a first principal
01:23:30approach to trying to build a new
01:23:32University um bringing the best
01:23:34professors together giving them the
01:23:35freedom making sure they're not they're
01:23:37not sensored in any way giving them the
01:23:39audience and the remuneration and
01:23:40appreciation they deserve when does this
01:23:43University Peterson Academy launch early
01:23:472024 we already have 30 courses uh
01:23:50recorded something like that I'll put
01:23:52the link to the university in the
01:23:54description below on on this episode but
01:23:56also you can just search Peterson's
01:23:57University online and it comes up the
01:23:59first
01:24:00thing we usually have a closing
01:24:02tradition on this podcast where the last
01:24:03guest leaves a question for the next
01:24:04guest in the diary but um I wanted to
01:24:07ask you my own question because it was
01:24:09quite pivotal to our it was really
01:24:10informative and the honesty you brought
01:24:12with it in our last conversation really
01:24:14changed my life in a number of ways how
01:24:17I'll tell you after I ask you the
01:24:18question okay okay the question
01:24:21is
01:24:23how are you doing good good you know I I
01:24:28still have a lot of pain so that's
01:24:30annoying but not anywhere near as much
01:24:34as I did have when I was really sick so
01:24:36like I almost always feel like I have a
01:24:38relatively serious flu achy it's some
01:24:42neurological problem and I have no idea
01:24:45what it is and neither does anyone else
01:24:47but but I'm not anxious at all and my
01:24:51head is very clear and
01:24:53I have such a ridiculously interesting
01:24:55life
01:24:58that the the the left over trouble is
01:25:01basically irrelevant you know I wish it
01:25:03would go away but whatever it's not that
01:25:05big a problem so and I I mean I just
01:25:08have an
01:25:11absolutely miraculous realm of
01:25:14opportunity in front of me it's crazy
01:25:16every day I have is so interesting that
01:25:18it's almost unbearable and I would tell
01:25:20people who are listening you know you
01:25:22might want that for yourself let's say
01:25:24you might want to have that and I can
01:25:26tell you you can one way to increase the
01:25:29probability that things will unfold for
01:25:31you properly is to is to not lie it's
01:25:35just stop lying
01:25:37period stop saying things you believe to
01:25:40be untrue stop doing things you know to
01:25:42be wrong just start with that you'll get
01:25:45closer and closer to the truth and the
01:25:46truth is the truth is the adventure of
01:25:49life that's the advantage to the truth
01:25:52you have the world on your side but
01:25:55obviously because if you're lying about
01:25:57things you're opposing reality who are
01:26:01you who are you to oppose reality good
01:26:04luck unbearable it's almost
01:26:08unbearable your life is
01:26:11so exciting and so full of opportunities
01:26:13that it's almost
01:26:15unbearable yeah yeah it's like an action
01:26:17adventure movie all the time it's crazy
01:26:20it's crazy you know wherever I go I can
01:26:23talk to whoever I want essentially you
01:26:26know I'm going from country to country
01:26:28people stop me on the streets they're
01:26:29happy to see me it's like I have friends
01:26:31wherever I go really it's crazy and
01:26:34people you know they feel they know me
01:26:36because they've been watching hours
01:26:37often and they do know me you know I
01:26:39don't know them but they certainly
01:26:40approach me on good terms you know and
01:26:44so and I go I just was in nine different
01:26:47countries and I have a team of people
01:26:48who set up meetings for me like dinner
01:26:50meetings and so on in these countries
01:26:52and they're always people they're
01:26:54well-placed people in the political
01:26:55realm in the cultural realm they're
01:26:57hyper interesting people and you know so
01:26:59I meet 30 people like that every second
01:27:01day in EV in different countries all
01:27:03over the world and so and then I have
01:27:05these podcasts and I can basically phone
01:27:07anyone I want who I would like to talk
01:27:10to and they'll talk to me and so you
01:27:12know three times a week I get to sit
01:27:13down with someone who's like a bloody
01:27:15genius and for 90 minutes they'll tell
01:27:18me a whole bunch of things I don't know
01:27:20so that's superbly interesting and so
01:27:25and you know my books are selling like
01:27:27mad and I'm writing another one which
01:27:29I'm really interested in and yeah it's
01:27:31great it's ridiculously interesting and
01:27:33you
01:27:34can I truly believe that people have
01:27:37that at hand they have you have that at
01:27:40hand that's there for
01:27:43you Jordan thank you my pleasure it's
01:27:46always good to talk with you it's always
01:27:47good to talk with you too and it's
01:27:49you've given me a gift as you did last
01:27:51time in so many ways so thank you so
01:27:52much for making the decision cuz I know
01:27:54you could be anywhere so if you to come
01:27:55here that that that honor and that that
01:27:58decision is not lost on me so means a
01:28:00lot to me thank you so much for the work
01:28:01that you do yeah well I'll tell you just
01:28:03so you know too it's like there's a
01:28:05reason I'm here you know I have a team
01:28:07that because I do have a lot of requests
01:28:09and when you have more requests than you
01:28:11can possibly fulfill there's a certain
01:28:15pain in that because there's the
01:28:17requests are almost always of some
01:28:19quality you know so we triage and we're
01:28:22looking for people whose podcasts have
01:28:24reach and who have been successful and
01:28:27who will conduct a straightforward and
01:28:28honest interview and that will you know
01:28:30that are aiming up and that won't play
01:28:32games and there's a reason I'm here and
01:28:35the reason I'm here is because of the
01:28:36work that you've done so right it's no
01:28:40favor I'm glad to be here but I'm I'm
01:28:43here because this is the right place to
01:28:45be right now so congratulations on that
01:28:49thank you so
01:28:51much
01:28:54a quick word on hu as you know they're a
01:28:56sponsor of this podcast and I'm an
01:28:57investor in the company it is finally
01:28:59here three years of work from H to try
01:29:01and make a bar a snack bar that is
01:29:03nutritionally complete as of the
01:29:05recording of this episode they finally
01:29:07release these bars that are high in
01:29:09protein 27 vitamins and minerals and
01:29:13just 2 gram of sugar The Impossible has
01:29:15been done and it tastes so godamn good
01:29:18often these snack bars these like high
01:29:20protein snack bars taste like you're
01:29:21eating Play-Doh or cardboard or
01:29:24something it's so hard to make one that
01:29:26is nutritionally complete and that
01:29:28tastes good and ladies and gentlemen
01:29:31here we have it I'm going to put the
01:29:32link in the description to get your bar
01:29:33below try it out and tag me and let me
01:29:36know exactly how you get on because it's
01:29:38so nice to finally have a bar that is
01:29:40nutritionally complete and that actually
01:29:41doesn't taste like cardboard and that
01:29:43tastes
01:29:44delicious The Impossible has been
01:29:47[Music]
01:29:50accomplished
01:29:53[Music]
01:30:10oh
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