Stephen Harper, 22nd Prime Minister of Canada
Stanford Graduate School of Business2018-02-28
stanford gsb#vftt#stanford mba#stanford business#stanford graduate school of business#view from the top#stephen harper#canada#prime minister
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💫 Short Summary
Former Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper discusses his political career, from forming the Reform Party to leading the Conservative Party and becoming Prime Minister. He emphasizes his conservative values, immigration policies, and successful trade deals. Harper reflects on his leadership style, decision-making, and love for Canada, advocating for nationalism in leadership. He addresses economic challenges, populism, and the importance of understanding voters' concerns. Harper highlights the need for practical solutions, emotional connections with voters, and professionalism in politics. Leadership success is attributed to luck, integrity, and a long-term vision for the country.
✨ Highlights
📊 Transcript
✦
Interview with Prime Minister Harper covering his favorite hockey teams, early interest in politics, transition from researcher to politician, and uniting right-leaning parties in Canada.
03:16Harper discusses his upbringing around politics, studying economics, and becoming involved in public policy.
Explains his unique path to becoming Prime Minister through a third party and his approach to deficit reduction.
Conversation highlights Harper's entrepreneurial mindset in politics.
Success in uniting different parties under one banner.
✦
Speaker's journey from disillusionment to political success.
04:29The speaker left his government job and helped form the Reform Party in 1987.
He became the first policy chief of the Reform Party and was elected in 1993.
After the Reform Party stalled, he led a conservative political action committee.
He was approached to lead the opposition due to a civil war within the party, leading to a merger with another conservative party and electoral success.
✦
Importance of being the last man standing in politics.
08:02Advocate for incrementalism in policy-making and gathering data before moving forward.
Highlight of Canada's successful immigration policy aligning with labor market needs.
Lessons for US policymakers include prioritizing skilled immigration and garnering public backing for policy decisions.
✦
Importance of Immigration Policy in Benefiting the Economy
14:22Addressing labor force needs is crucial for the economy's success.
Negative impact of illegal immigration on support for legal immigration systems.
Canada's embrace of multiculturalism and integration policies, allowing immigrants to maintain identity while promoting unity.
Canada's multicultural and patriotic stance could be a model for other countries.
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Balancing personal and family identities with a sense of belonging in a diverse society.
16:06Canada's successful integration of various ethnic and religious groups is attributed to cultural diversification.
Canada takes a proactive approach to free trade agreements with comprehensive consultations and understanding of different sector interests.
Policymakers are urged to approach trade deals as serious commercial agreements rather than theoretical exercises.
✦
Importance of Public Opinion in Trade Deals
20:11The success of the Canada-US Agreement in 1987 and subsequent NAFTA is attributed to public opinion supporting trade deals.
Initial opposition to the trade deal was proven wrong as it led to economic growth and trade encouragement.
Understanding and addressing people's economic interests is crucial in negotiating trade agreements, rather than relying solely on philosophical arguments.
Winning hearts and minds is essential in trade deals, as shown by the Canadian public's support for major agreements.
✦
Barack Obama's changing perception of Vladimir Putin.
23:57Obama initially viewed Putin as a strong leader who restored order in Russia post-collapse.
Over time, Obama realized Putin was not a friend and became more blunt with him.
Obama advocated for Putin's removal from the G8 even before the Crimea invasion.
During a meeting, Obama directly told Putin to 'get out of Ukraine,' demonstrating his firm stance on the issue.
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Discussion on Teddy Roosevelt's quote about Russians lying, shared during an exchange with Putin.
27:26Other leaders distanced themselves from Putin to avoid negative perceptions after witnessing the exchange.
Emphasis on maintaining sanctions on Russia and minimizing contact with Putin due to belief that he does not want to be friends with the West.
Putin's strong leadership and resentment towards the fall of the Soviet Union are seen as reasons for his actions to undermine the West.
Putin's motivations and leadership style are reflected in his attempts to undermine the West.
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Importance of Integrity in Politics
30:36Emphasis on taking the high road and avoiding negative attacks on opponents.
Highlighting the need for combativeness in campaigns and delivering true criticisms.
Significance of being respected and having integrity in politics over being liked or loved.
Addressing the need to treat opponents with respect while still attacking them on legitimate weaknesses.
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Challenges of Democratic Leadership.
34:24Democratic leaders face opposition and criticism, unlike in business.
The parliamentary system separates head of state power from head of government power, emphasizing scrutiny.
Cults of personality are avoided by subjecting leaders to criticism.
Success in leadership is often attributed to luck and being in the right place at the right time.
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Former Prime Minister's leadership style, goals, and conservative values.
39:21He emphasizes his long-term vision for establishing a lasting institutional force.
Reflects on making difficult decisions in politics and acknowledges some choices he would have made differently.
Prioritizes what he believes is best for the country over personal preferences.
Media's portrayal of his passion for Canada is highlighted, often overlooked in press coverage.
✦
Speaker's deep connection to Canada and views on nationalism.
42:24The speaker highlights his ancestry in Canada dating back to the 18th century and praises the opportunities for social mobility in the country.
Despite not always enjoying the weather, the speaker expresses his love for Canada's history and geography.
The speaker emphasizes the importance of nationalism for leaders and questions the lack of patriotism in the modern liberal elite.
The speaker believes that loving one's country is essential for effective leadership.
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Former Canadian Prime Minister advocates for a substantial stimulus program to combat economic collapse.
45:55Resistance from some members of his caucus is addressed, emphasizing the need to restore economic balance.
Assurance is given that the long-term financial structure of Canada will not be compromised.
The term 'populism' is examined, particularly in how it is negatively portrayed by conservatives.
Conservatives are urged to understand the appeal of populism to voters and to consider the impact of policies on ordinary people.
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Impact of market-oriented policies on people.
49:53Criticism of large-scale importation of low-skilled workers and foreign investors leaving residential real estate unoccupied.
Importance of understanding social outcomes, good policy outcomes, and addressing concerns of working middle-class people.
Contrasting Canada with the US in terms of political polarization and steady income growth for middle and working-class citizens.
Emphasis on the need for political debate, different party views, and avoiding deeply rooted social cleavages.
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Emotional aspect of leadership and conservatism's approach to connecting with voters.
53:46While emotional appeal is important, conservatism also focuses on providing sensible solutions.
Conservative leaders aim to convince people with their expertise and effectiveness.
The need to improve emotional connections is acknowledged, but practical solutions are emphasized to address deep concerns.
The speech concludes with a thank you message to the audience.
00:00[MUSIC].
[APPLAUSE].
00:09Prime Minister Harper, thank you so
much for joining us today.
00:17>> Well, thanks for having me.
00:19>> Before we begin,
00:20could I please get a quick show of hands
from all the Canadians in the audience?
00:25Raise your hands?
00:27>> Wow.
00:28>> [APPLAUSE]
>> An all Canadian campus here,
00:33who would have known?
00:34>> You've clearly got some pull
around here, Mr. Prime Minister.
00:37>> [LAUGH]
>> Yeah.
00:39>> We have many topics to discuss today,
00:42from your views on key policy issues to
moments of leadership on the world stage.
00:48Before we start though, I wanted to
start with a very simple question.
00:52Is it true that, despite writing
a book about Canadian hockey,
00:55you don't have a favorite hockey team?
00:59>> No, that's not true.
01:00>> [LAUGH]
>> I never was very clear in
01:05public as to what my favorite team was
because I always felt that I could lose
01:10more votes on answering that question-
>> [LAUGH]
01:12>> Than any serious issue of policy.
01:15We actually have two favorite teams in
our household, the Toronto Maple Leafs.
01:19I grew up in Toronto,
my father was a Maple Leafs fan.
01:23And then of course, as an adult, I've
resided most of my adult life in Calgary.
01:27So we have the Toronto Maple Leafs in the
east and the Calgary Flames in the west,
01:30but since Canada hasn't won
the Stanley Cup since 1993,
01:33I will take any one of them.
01:35>> [LAUGH]
>> Any one of them,
01:36I'm desperate at this point.
01:37>> [LAUGH]
>> Clearly judging by this year's
01:40performances at the Olympics, there is
a lot to admire about Canadian sport.
01:44So I'll take that.
01:47Now I wanted to shift to your
beginnings as a politician,
01:51back when you were still in university.
01:54What originally drew you to politics?
01:58>> Well it's a long question,
it's a long answer.
02:01First of all, I never in my university
days, I never intended to be a politician,
02:06that was not the plan, to the extent
I had a plan that was not the plan.
02:12I was interested in politics because
as a very, it started as a kid.
02:17From the time I was about nine years old,
my parents expected me to read
02:22the front page of the newspaper and
to be conversant in public issues
02:27at the dinner table, so
I kind of started that interest early.
02:31In university, I was studying economics,
I became very interested in public policy,
02:35and my interest, then, and my first
job in politics was as a researcher.
02:41And that was kind of how I saw myself,
was essentially a research assistant,
02:46and I had longer term plans
to become an economist and
02:49to be involved in public policy and
academia.
02:52So that was really the beginning of it,
02:54and it's a lot of steps
that led me to where I was.
02:58>> And
I'd love to get to some of those steps.
03:00>> Yeah.
>> We talk a lot about entrepreneurship
03:02here at the GSB.
03:04And your political career shows many
signs of being very entrepreneurial,
03:09especially when you united the different
right-leaning parties within Canada
03:14under one banner in 2003.
03:16Could you talk a little bit about how you
managed to pull off that difficult task,
03:20and why you were the right person for
the job?
03:22>> But let me maybe just go
through how I ended up in the job,
03:25because I have the most unusual
path to the Prime Ministership of
03:29anyone in Canadian history, the only
one to come up through a third party.
03:34So, I went to Ottawa in 1985
as a research assistant,
03:40an economics graduate, to assist
the government on its program of deficit
03:45reduction, and market reforms, and some
of the other things that we believed in.
03:49Left that job after a year,
03:52I'd only intended to be there two years
maximum, but left after one year,
03:56fairly disillusioned with what the
government was not doing on these matters.
04:01I was convinced that we'd
never balance a budget,
04:03in fact, that turned out to be the case.
04:05So I actually not only left the job,
I actually left the party,
04:08went back to university
to get a graduate degree.
04:11And in the course of the graduate degree,
people heard me talking about my
04:15experiences, and a number of professors,
who had similar thinking hooked me up
04:20with a fellow named Preston Manning,
who was forming a new political party to
04:24push some of these issues much harder,
eventually called the Reform Party.
04:29So I got involved in that in 1987 I became
the first policy chief of the party.
04:34I did it, this is actually true,
I remember say to the then-president,
04:38who became eventually
a colleague in parliament,
04:40a ministerial colleague, I remember saying
to her, she asked my why I was doing this.
04:45I said, well, I sort of like what they're
doing here, and this is a fun hobby,
04:49it's not going to take much of my time.
04:50>> [LAUGH]
>> Anyway, one thing led to another, and
04:54the first time we ran for election,
the election was suddenly upon us,
04:58we had almost no candidates,
so I became a candidate.
05:02Obviously didn't win, we didn't win any
seats, but I did surprisingly well.
05:07And then the next time around, I decided
to run again when we had a much better
05:11shot, and I ran and got elected in 1993.
05:14By the end of my first term,
look, I say there’s no plan here.
05:19By the end of my first term,
I could also see that the reform party,
05:25as I had envisioned it,
was kind of stalled, and
05:30once again, I decided it was time for
me to do something different, I went and
05:34headed a essentially conservative
political action committee in Canada.
05:39So I left, I did not run for re-election.
05:41And I did that for three or four years,
and I was about to depart that job into
05:46a true private sector job, when the party
that I'd left, the Reform Party,
05:50which had converted itself into something
called the Reform Conservative Alliance,
05:54when it had a massive civil war
in the party around leadership.
05:58And it was so bad that the party sunk
to the low single digits in support,
06:04was almost ready to drop off the map, and
06:06virtually everybody of some note in the
party was discredited by the civil war.
06:10And since I was not there,
I was the only person of
06:15any stature in the party who wasn't
tainted by the civil war, and
06:18a lot of the MPs approached me,
would you come and lead us?
06:21And we just paid off
the mortgage on our home.
06:25And I said to my wife, if I do this?
06:28It wasn't what I was thinking of, if I
do this, I'm going to become leader of
06:31the opposition without trying,
like I will win this race, if I get in.
06:35So I got in, she agreed,
I got in, I won the race.
06:38And then the other conservative
party had a massive civil war.
06:45And it wasn't going well,
we were all looking at oblivion.
06:51And one thing led to another, both our
parties were ready to do a merger,
06:55we both understood that
if we stayed separate,
06:57our chances of, not just winning,
our chances of survival were limited.
07:02So people really did it, in some ways out
of desperation, the timing was just right.
07:07Partly because my background was
a mixed partisan background,
07:10I was kind of a good person
to lead that effort,
07:14had a good partner on the other
side named Peter McKay.
07:17And we united the parties, and then
the next thing that happened was the then
07:21governing liberal party was so certain
that it couldn't possibly lose an election
07:24that it engaged in it's own civil war.
07:27And I ended up leading in the next two
elections the party that was united, and
07:30they led the party that was divided, and
in politics the guy united usually wins.
07:35>> It sounds like it pays to
be the last man standing.
07:37>> Yeah, yeah.
07:39I do have an interesting story on that,
it's funny.
07:44After the last election,
I had two or three colleagues,
07:48I'd stayed in Parliament a while, and
some former colleagues visited me.
07:52And I did point out to them, I remember
saying, first time it surprised me, but
07:56I tried it again.
07:58I said, I am the only member of parliament
from the great revolution of 1993.
08:02The only one of the class of 93 still in
parliament, and I'm the last man standing.
08:08Who would have believed that?
08:10And everyone of them said to me, we
always thought that was going to happen.
08:14So they saw it before I did.
08:16>> Well, it's good that to be
a rock in the storm if you will.
08:19>> Yeah.
08:21>> You were also known within Canada for
positioning yourself
08:25as a progressive conservative when
you ran for election in 2006.
08:30What I wanted to ask you next was,
08:33how did you decide which sacrifices
you would make in order to govern,
08:39and which principles you
would not compromise?
08:43>> Yeah look, I would not have described
myself as a progressive conservative.
08:47Part of the issue in Canada is that is the
name of one of the two founding parties.
08:51So that would have identified you
with one party rather than the other.
08:56Look, I consider myself
a straight conservative.
08:59I'm conservative on most issues.
09:03I'm conservative probably more in the
temperamental than the ideological sense.
09:08And I'm a strong believer, I get this
is where people consider it moderate.
09:15I'm a strong believer In
incrementalism in policy.
09:19And I think some describe my government
as kind of a series of what they call
09:24this incrementalism in terms of the steps
we took across ranges of public policy.
09:29Partly because, and not that sometimes
you have to do radical departures, but
09:34generally speaking I'm distrustful of
frankly, smart people like ourselves,
09:39with great blueprints that we're going to
kind of invent the solutions to the world.
09:44I actually think you have
to see how things work,
09:47what unintended consequences are,
09:49whether something is turning out as you
expect before you move to the next step.
09:53So I tend to be someone that
wants to gather data and
09:56see what the experience is
until I take the next step.
10:00>> So when it comes to gathering data,
incrementalism, and
10:04dealing with very weighty policy issues,
one that's very relevant today and
10:09where Canada gets a lot of
acclaim is immigration.
10:13And President Trump has cited Canada as
an example that the US should potentially
10:18follow, and you've been known to
support skilled immigration to Canada.
10:23What lessons, incremental or
10:25otherwise, could US policy makers
learn from Canada's example?
10:30>> Well, look, I'd say two things, and
10:31I'd say this not to just American
audiences, but audiences everywhere else.
10:37What I think was most remarkable for
10:41other political leaders about
our immigration policy was not,
10:43for the most part they were successful
policies in the policy sense.
10:48It's that we had overwhelming public
support behind our immigration policy,
10:53behind a large scale immigration policy.
10:57How do you do that?
10:58First of all, on the success side, we were
progressively moving our system towards
11:06being based on labor market needs,
on responding to labor market needs.
11:10There's always been a significant portion
of the Canadian, unlike the United States,
11:16always a significant portion of Canadian
immigration policy that was admitted
11:20on the basis of skills and
labor force considerations.
11:23We vastly increased that over
time from 40% to two-thirds.
11:31We started by making, it was really
a simple change, but it worked wonders was
11:36allowing university students to find work
in their areas while they were in Canada,
11:43which would often encourage those
students to stay once they graduated.
11:46A really simple change made
a big difference in policy.
11:50So I'm a strong, strong believer that
11:53immigration policy in the modern age
must be based to be beneficial for
11:58an economy, must be based on labor
force needs and requirements.
12:02Doesn't mean you can't have humanitarian
and family reunification streams, but
12:06that is not in my mind the central
benefit of an immigration policy for
12:10one's own country.
12:12The second thing, and let me say this
because I'm in the United States.
12:15I'm often asked in the United States or
Europe,
12:18how can we make our current
immigration system more popular?
12:23Why is it so unpopular?
12:24Well, I'll tell you this right now.
12:26If Canada had a huge percentage of as
you do in the United States or Europe,
12:30a huge percentage of its immigrant
population was here illegally or
12:34irregularly outside the law,
it would not be popular.
12:38Illegal immigration is not popular
anywhere in the world at any time.
12:42And if you want to sustain public support
for an immigration system, this has to
12:47be a decision the society takes
through its laws and enforces the law.
12:51And unless you can fix that problem, and
12:53I think that is the big
problem in the United States.
12:55Without a solution to that problem,
12:56people's resistance to legal
immigration has gone through the roof.
13:01And my quick comment on the United States,
13:06the big problem you have is it's way too
difficult for someone to become a legal
13:10immigrant, and way too easy for
them to become an illegal immigrant.
13:14>> There seems to be also a flip side to
what you're saying when it comes to public
13:18support.
13:18Which is in addition to upholding the law,
there is this embrace of multiculturalism
13:23in Canada that seems very unique and
distinctly Canadian.
13:28And so I what I wanted to follow
up with is in an age of rising
13:32nationalism in Canada,
has this unique position and
13:37it seems to be both multi-cultural and
patriotic.
13:42I'm curious, do you think this is
a blueprint for other nations to follow,
13:46that you can be both things, and
if yes, how can we encourage both?
13:50>> Yeah, look, I think absolutely.
13:52First of all, I think Canada had a bit of
a traditional advantage on that from other
13:57countries in that Canada has never had
one clearly defined national culture.
14:06And we've always had at least, we've had
two national languages, we've always had,
14:10at least, going back two major religions,
and obviously it's more diverse today.
14:14So there was never a kind of a unified
vision of what a Canadian looked like,
14:19so I think that background kind of helped.
14:22But on multiculturalism,
we actually modified the multiculturalism
14:28policy somewhat along the lines really
of how it's practiced in Quebec.
14:33And technically in Quebec, they don't
call it multiculturalism, they call
14:37it [FOREIGN], which interculturalism,
doesn't mean anything in English.
14:41But what it really is,
is it is about encouraging,
14:48I would say promoting is not the word,
but encouraging immigrants to retain
14:53aspects of their identity, their links
to their home country, their traditions.
14:58But encouraging that within the concept
of a broader social unity and
15:03a broader participation.
15:06And we as a government really saw
multiculturalism, well it had obviously
15:12the aspect of preserving people's
native and a diverse set of cultures.
15:18Really, its objective was
ultimately integration.
15:22It stems from the belief, and I do believe
this strongly, that first and foremost,
15:25immigrants, when they come to a new
country, they want to belong.
15:29They actually don't
want to be ghetto-ized.
15:30They may want to retain aspects of
their personal and family identities,
15:34but they want to belong.
15:36And so we encourage that,
but at the same time,
15:39we recognize that as you diversify the
ethnic and religious mix of your country,
15:44that inevitably that will have some impact
on the mainstream of your own culture.
15:48So that was really the philosophy behind
the policy, and we think it's, look,
15:53I think that it's objectively successful.
15:55Canada has few Kind of ethnic based,
deeply ethnic based conflicts.
16:03It's a very diverse society where
people integrate reasonably well and
16:06this is going back decades.
16:09And from my standpoint,
the Conservative Party of Canada
16:13is one of the few center-right parties in
the world that wins a large share, and
16:18in the case of 2011,
an outright majority of immigrant vote.
16:23>> Yeah, it's a powerful set of options.
16:26Future policymakers, please take note.
16:29I'd love to build on
this notion of belonging,
16:33but now on the international stage.
16:36You're a passionate free trader.
16:38Under your watch, Canada signed landmark
free trade deals with South Korea and
16:43the European Union, and you're known
to be a supporter of NAFTA as well.
16:47What are the best ways
to promote the benefits
16:51of free trade in an increasingly
anti-trade global political environment?
16:56>> Sure, you might be a bit
surprised by my answer on this.
16:58I'm actually writing a book on this
very subject, on the rise of populism,
17:03what's driving it, and particularly
how conservatives should respond.
17:07First of all, just on the record,
17:09when we came to office,
when my government came to office in 2006.
17:12In spite of the fact that Canada is one
of the most open economies in the world,
17:16we had free trade agreements
with only five countries.
17:20And when I left we had concluded
negotiations with 51 and
17:23now all are in the process, are either
implemented or being implemented.
17:28And by the way, that was another thing, in
an era where there's increasing resistance
17:32to trade, that was another thing we
did with overwhelming public support.
17:37None of those trade agreements
were unpopular, so why is that?
17:42And what I tell policy makers
particularly the conservative
17:47policy makers who form
the International Democrat Union.
17:52What I tell them is it is not a simple
matter of being for free trade.
17:57I understand David Ricardo, I understand
the basic theories of free trade,
18:02but that's not good enough.
18:05A trade deal is a large commercial deal,
and this is actually, to some degree,
18:09where I agree with what
President Trump is saying.
18:11You actually have to know what you're
doing when you sign such a deal.
18:15You can't do it on the basis of theory, or
18:17the basis of simply bureaucratic,
internal consultations and negotiations.
18:23When we did trade deals we
established comprehensive
18:29consultations with every single
major sector of Canadian society.
18:34We understood at the bargaining table,
18:37what the interests of our
economy actually were.
18:42We understood both what interest we
needed to advance in terms of trade,
18:46we also understood what
interest we needed to protect.
18:49Because protection is part of your
responsibility as a government when
18:53those are your interest.
18:54So we understood what the interest are,
18:56obviously we would lean
to opening up markets.
18:58And we ultimately understood what kind of
concessions we could and could not make,
19:02where we could make gains, and
where we could not make gains.
19:05And particularly,
the additional factor we had
19:07in place was when we dealt with larger
entities like the European Union.
19:10We had to know what they wanted, and
we spent a lot of time finding that out.
19:15So, it comes down to treating
it as a serious commercial deal.
19:20Understanding all of the periods and
commas and
19:23making a good deal for the country.
19:25And is it possible,
19:28President Trump doesn't say he's
a protectionist, maybe he is.
19:33He says he's for
good deals and not bad deals.
19:35Is it possible to have the bad trade deal?
19:37Absolutely, and there are many times I
would've walked away from the table rather
19:41than signed what was on it.
19:43>> There's something else that you said
about overwhelming public support though
19:48and essentially selling these deals or
19:51cutting these deals to last within
the court of public opinions.
19:56So, is there a component to this to
winning hearts and not just minds?
20:01>> Yeah, look I think advantage
we start with in Canada
20:06was we had, our first free trade
deal besides confederation itself.
20:11Our first free trade deal was
the Canada-US Agreement concluded in 1987.
20:16It became the focal point of
the 1988 federal election.
20:21In which the then progressive conservative
government was championing the deal.
20:26And the opposition, the liberals and the
new Democratic party, were opposing it.
20:30And the rhetoric got very high
according to the opposition,
20:36signing of the free trade deal would
devastate multiple Canadian industries.
20:41Basically hollow out the Canadian
economy and eventually
20:44we'd lose our independence and become
the 51st state of the United States.
20:48This was literally,
in fact a famous ad from that campaign,
20:51almost no one here is
old enough to know this.
20:54Famous ad from that campaign was two
negotiators sitting at a table and
20:59the American says, let's just,
21:03I think we've got a deal if we just
kind of take out this one line.
21:07And you go back and
the line was the border.
21:09>> [LAUGH]
>> Between Canada and the United States.
21:13But the government won the election,
21:16principly on a split
vote of the opposition.
21:18They won the election and
they passed the deal.
21:21And not only did none of the things
the opposition predicted come true, but
21:26frankly the deal, in its economic
performance and the eventual NAFTA,
21:31exceeded all forecasts in terms
of its encouragement of trade and
21:35economic growth.
21:36So you have that backdrop that
Canada is a trading country.
21:40And with that experience no one really
believes kind of hysteria about trade but
21:45look, I will tell you this.
21:46We didn’t operate on that alone,
21:48I talked about the kind of
comprehensive consultations we ran.
21:51And I can tell you this, when I got
in front of the Canadian public,
21:54whether it was in Brussels or
21:57somewhere in Canada to TPP in the case
to announce a major trade agreement.
22:03When I got in front of people and
then every group in the country,
22:07every interest group, every sector would
put out its release saying they were for
22:11the deal, against the deal or
mixed feelings.
22:14I knew in advance what every
22:17single interest group in
the country group was going to say.
22:20We were not guessing about public opinion.
22:22We knew exactly, so yeah,
you win hearts and minds.
22:26But actually, this is not an issue.
22:29These are people's vested
economic interests.
22:32You cannot treat them as
a strictly a philosophical battle.
22:37It's about really understanding
where the rubber meets the road and
22:40where people will see the gain or lose.
22:44>> When it comes to interests, I'd love
to talk a little bit now about foreign
22:48policy interests, and specifically
one example of your leadership.
22:54I'll lay out the scenario first,
it's November of 2014, you're at
22:59the G20 Summit in Australia, and Vladimir
Putin comes up to you to shake your hand.
23:05You accept the handshake, reluctantly and
23:09you say to him,
you need to get out of Ukraine.
23:13Take us what went through
your head at that moment.
23:16>> Sure, well,
I'll tell you more of the story.
23:23First of all, like so many leaders,
23:25I had given Vladimir Putin the benefit of
the doubt when I first came to office.
23:31He had come to power in Russia
after a terrible decade,
23:34where the company literally fell apart.
23:37And the economic and social indicators for
Russia from that period are some of
23:41the worst,
it wasn't just the political collapse.
23:44Some of the worst social and economic
collapse any major country's ever seen.
23:49And so he came to power, reestablished
order, seemed to be a strong leader.
23:54So people gave him the benefit
of the doubt at first.
23:57I gave him a benefit there
a couple of years and
24:00it increasingly was obvious
to me that he was not and
24:03never going to be a friend, and
we can talk about that if you want.
24:08>> [LAUGH]
>> But
24:09frankly, I became in private meetings,
increasingly blunt with Mr.
24:13Putin unlike some of my
international colleagues.
24:16In fact,
I think I became kind of the bad cop.
24:19Bad cop,
good cop at Summer International Forums.
24:22So Vladimir Putin was
not unaware of my views.
24:25And then of course, and
I had been actually even a year or
24:29two before the invasion of Crimea.
24:31I had been advocating for
his removal from the G8, not very subtly.
24:35Certainly not subtly in private,
and not even that subtly in public.
24:39And so he invades Crimea and
Eastern Ukraine,
24:45and it was really my
first meeting with Mr.
24:50Putin since that period.
24:54Let me just tell you
a bit of the backdrop.
24:55What happens at international conferences?
24:58You see these things,
24:59you would not believe how much time you
spend arriving at an international summit.
25:04>> [LAUGH]
>> There is an order in which you arrive.
25:08It's all established by protocol and you
all kind of drive up one at a time, and
25:12you assemble in a room behind, before
the conference begins, you come out and
25:16arrive again on the stage.
25:18It takes like two or
three hours to arrive.
25:22So anyway, I'd gone through and I was,
they were doing the backwards order,
25:27the most junior to the most senior,
and prime ministers,
25:30no matter how long you're in office, are
always considered junior to presidents.
25:34So, I had already arrived in the room
backstage with most of the leaders.
25:38Putin would have been near
the end of the arrivals, and
25:42it was interesting because,
I tell this story for a bunch of reasons.
25:46So I'm in the room.
25:47I'm at one end.
25:48Mr. Putin comes in and
everybody's greeting him and
25:51slapping him on the back, and all
the things we do at these things that we-
25:56>> High fives.
25:57>> Yeah, we know all these people.
25:59You get quite comfortable
with these people.
26:03You get to know them after time.
26:04Well, anyway, Putin comes around to me.
26:07And he sticks out his hand, and I had
kind of thought what am I going to do or
26:12say if Putin, candidate support for
Ukraine was extremely strong.
26:16Obviously, I denounced them privately.
26:19And so I said to him, I shook his hand.
26:22I said I'll shake your hand, Vladimir, but
I have only one thing to tell you, and
26:26that is get out of Ukraine.
26:29And he paused,
looked at me kind of taken aback and
26:34said to me, I'm not in Ukraine.
26:37>> [LAUGH]
>> To which I said,
26:43well, that's why it's a waste
of my time to talk to you.
26:45>> [LAUGH]
>> And by the way, I was just reading,
26:48Teddy Roosevelt said and this is so true.
26:50Teddy Roosevelt said about
the Russians in 1905.
26:53He said, the most annoying
things about the Russians,
26:56is they will lie to you even when they
know that you know they're lying.
26:59>> [LAUGH]
>> It's an inexplicable national trait.
27:03>> [LAUGH]
>> But, anyway, so I said that to Putin.
27:10And the reason I tell this story,
is what's interesting after that,
27:14the story got out, by the way, because
the Russians put the story out, not me.
27:18I don't know why.
27:19But what's interesting is all the other
leaders witnessed this exchange.
27:24And what went through their heads,
27:26obviously the ones who were facing the
electorates where Putin and his actions
27:29were not popular, all of a sudden,
they ceased being friendly with him.
27:34Because they knew if the story got out,
27:35while Harper was not friendly with
them and we were, that would be bad.
27:39So nobody was friendly with them for
the rest of the conference.
27:42And then there were pictures of them
sitting at tables eating by himself, and
27:45that sort of thing.
27:46>> [LAUGH]
>> But look,
27:47I point that out only because, and it's
not that symbolic actions are everything,
27:53but it is interesting how sometimes
simply by taking a stand.
27:58You can people to act.
28:02>> And it seems that this time now,
especially knowing what we know,
28:05that that was quite courageous and
prescient.
28:08>> Well, I don't go to rush on business,
let's put it that way, so.
28:11>> [LAUGH]
>> How would you handle Putin
28:15in today's world, almost four years later?
28:19>> Well, it's the same thing.
28:22Look, there's no way of avoiding the fact
that Russia is a major power and
28:27cannot be ignored.
28:28We brought in a host of sanctions
on Russia in coordination with
28:32the Obama administration and others.
28:33We would keep those sanctions in place.
28:36And I would continue to minimize
contact with Putin, except where it's
28:40unavoidable or necessary to conduct
foreign policy as in Syria, for example.
28:46But I would not pretend
I'm friends with him and
28:51it's my conviction that Putin
does not want to be our friend.
28:55I think there's been so much effort
made by successive western governments,
28:58to have friendly and
cooperative relations with Putin.
29:01What is just they fail to understand
is that this is not Putin's objective.
29:06Vladimir Putin is a very,
don't get me wrong, a very strong leader.
29:09Actually, a very impressive
individual in many ways.
29:12I don't mean to demean him.
29:14He's one of the more impressive
leaders I've dealt with.
29:17But Vladimir Putin carries
an enormous chip on his shoulder for
29:20the fall of the Soviet Union.
29:22He believes that the west was
trying to destroy his country.
29:27And a large part of his
actions are designed simply to
29:31undermine the west as an end in itself.
29:33And that's kind of what he's made of.
29:37>> That's a good warning to keep in mind.
29:40I'd like to shift a little
bit now to leadership style.
29:44As you rose to prominence
in Canadian politics,
29:47you showed that you weren't afraid to
take the gloves off in political scraps.
29:52A style that some observers
called decidedly un-Canadian.
29:58What led you to adopt
this particular approach?
30:01>> I wanted to win.
30:03>> [LAUGH]
>> I remember another conservative leader
30:08in a particular province saying to
me before a campaign, he was saying,
30:14Prime Minister, I respect you,
but I have a different style.
30:18I'm not going to kind of mix it up,
30:20I'm not going to go
negative on the opposition.
30:22I'm going to take the high road,
and I said great.
30:25I said there's a word for that.
30:27He said what is it?
30:27Called a losing campaign.
30:30Look, a campaign's a campaign.
30:31They use the word campaign for a reason.
30:34It's a combat.
30:36It doesn't mean you should
do anything to win.
30:41But you are making a contrast
with your opponents, and
30:44you have to be combative
from time to time.
30:46And every successful leader is.
30:49You talk about all the great
statesmen of history.
30:52I guarantee if you go back and
look at their political records,
30:55they were successful combatants.
30:57Now, if you're a conservative, the liberal
media says this is terrible and
31:02unstatesman-like.
31:03But the other side does it all the time.
31:06So you just gotta do it,
you just gotta face that criticism.
31:09And don't be unfair.
31:11I used to say, I've delivered some very
tough criticisms of my opponents, but
31:15I always had one criteria with our staff,
which was, is the criticism true?
31:22Is the criticism true?
31:24Don't level a criticism that's not true.
31:26That's going to back fire on you.
31:27But if you see a weakness, deliver it.
31:30Obviously you have to deliver
your own message as well.
31:34But that's a big part of it.
31:37I think the other part of it is,
31:38I like to think the other part of my
success was not just winning elections.
31:42But ultimately, once you get there,
you have to know why you're there and
31:45what it is you're trying to do.
31:47>> And when it comes to winning,
there's winning in the short term and
31:51then there's winning in the long term,
or medium to long term.
31:54You once said about your former
finance minister Jim Flaherty, and
31:57I'm going to quote.
31:58As fiercely partisan as he was,
Jim was also genuinely liked and
32:03respected by his opponents.
32:05That's something in this business,
something I envy.
32:08I can't even get my friends to like me.
32:10>> [LAUGH]
>> Humor aside, how important
32:15do you feel being liked is to securing
your victories and cementing your legacy?
32:24>> Well, look, in spite of my joke,
32:27I actually think I was widely liked by
the people who voted for me in fact.
32:32But look, being,
I'm kind of one of those guys.
32:37I think being,
32:38I'm amazed how many people go into
politics because they want to be loved.
32:43It's not really a good occupation
if you want to be loved.
32:46>> [LAUGH]
>> I do think there are people who go into
32:52politics because they like the cameras and
microphones, but they can't sing or dance.
32:56>> [LAUGH]
>> So look,
33:01I was not attracted to camera and
microphones.
33:03I was a bit made up a little bit
differently than most politicians but
33:06I think it's important to be respected.
33:08I think it's important to be
seen as having integrity.
33:12But being loved or being liked,
I think that's secondary.
33:17I think it's obviously
important that you treat,
33:20it's important even that you
treat opponents with respect.
33:22You can still treat them with
respect while attacking them, right?
33:25There's a difference between attacking
someone on a weakness that's
33:30legitimate than belittling them and
we try and avoid that.
33:34I think the key is to be respected,
especially in democratic politics and
33:39as I say, I don't know anybody who got
into politics to be liked and succeeded.
33:45>> So there's a question that falls
from this, and it's one that we discuss
33:50a lot at business school about what
tact you can take as a leader.
33:54And it's, do you think that we as leaders
have to make a choice between being
33:58warm and
assertive in order to get the job done?
34:04>> Well look, I would say that leadership
in the political arena is a bit different
34:08than leadership in business,
in the democratic political arena.
34:12In the Democratic political arena,
34:14there are different leadership styles
that are successful for different people.
34:19Not all leaders are the same,
no all approaches are the same,
34:22certainly not in politics.
34:24But I would say that the difference in
politics is no matter how good you are,
34:32you are going to have a tremendous
amount of opposition and criticism.
34:35We encourage that, right?
34:38I mean, this is the difference between
democratic politics and politics in
34:42non-democratic countries, is we keep our
leaders under scrutiny and criticism.
34:48In fact, in the parliamentary system,
unlike your system,
34:52the Prime Minister who wields most of
the power is not the head of state.
34:59I'm not, when I traveled abroad
the Governor General of Canada
35:02is first in diplomatic ranking,
not the Prime Minister.
35:04He is the one who carries the prestige
of office in the country.
35:09I'm the Prime Minister, yeah I had most
of the head of government power, but
35:13I had to be subjected daily to
attacks in the House of Commons.
35:17We offset the power we grant somebody by
the degree of scrutiny we put them under.
35:22Your system's a little bit different,
but there's still commonality.
35:25And that's what we do.
35:29We don't have cults of personality
in democratic countries.
35:34That is one of the hallmarks
of an undemocratic society.
35:38When a leader is beyond criticism, when
a leader embodies the state, when a leader
35:44becomes somebody that you actually have
to worship, for lack of a better term.
35:50And so no matter what style
you adopt in public life,
35:56you're going to have lots of criticism.
35:57There's no way around that.
35:59Look, I think in business
there are ways of
36:02conducting yourself that would not expose
yourself to that level of criticism.
36:07>> Sure, one thing that maybe is more
common perhaps between politics and
36:13business is the need to build and
utilize power over time.
36:19And we actually have a course here at
Stanford at the Business School called
36:22Paths to Power, which is all about
how individuals build, retain,
36:26lose power in organizations.
36:28It seems based on your career that you
can teach the course without any notes.
36:32>> [LAUGH]
>> What
36:38are the key lessons that you've learned
about amassing and retaining power?
36:45>> Look, I'm not sure there's any one,
I say there's any one path.
36:50I think if I look at the successes that
I had I would attribute them to two or
36:55three things.
36:56One of them as I said earlier
was the luck of timing.
37:01And a couple of times,
when I became leader of my party and
37:04then when I merged the parties,
these things happened
37:09because they happened at
particular point of time.
37:13And I was the right person,
position to do it.
37:17I didn't plan that.
37:18I couldn't have planned it.
37:19I know that there were people
actually think I planned all of this.
37:23It couldn't have been planned, and so
37:24I just happened to be the right person
at the right time to do those things.
37:27And that's life, right?
37:29A lot of success in life is luck.
37:33There's no way around that,
starting with where you're born and
37:36when, all those things.
37:40I think one of the strengths I had that
served me well was that I had, and
37:45people understood me knew that I had
a particular view of public policy and
37:51a vision for where the country should go,
a direction for the country.
37:55And to the extent they shared that
direction, they could get behind it.
38:01Now, it didn't mean that I
didn't consult regularly.
38:04And frankly, I would say that although I
had a clear direction for the country,
38:08I have often said this, that very
seldom did I take a policy decision in
38:13government that was not overwhelmingly
supported by my party, very seldom.
38:18I didn't abuse,
I didn't abuse the power that I had.
38:25But I did provide a sense of direction.
38:27Other people who lead on different basis.
38:30Some people lead, one of my predecessors
Brian Mulroney, I would say that he led on
38:35the basis of his ability to establish
warm relationships with colleagues.
38:40And he was a master at that.
38:42That was probably his strength.
38:43Pierre Trudeau, the father of
the current Prime Minister was a really
38:49philosophically driven Prime MInister and
led on a couple of key issues of the day.
38:55So different people have different styles,
mine served me well.
38:59I like to think I didn't
abuse it in this sense.
39:03I could have wielded a lot more power.
39:05I think I could probably still easily
be leader of my party if I wanted to.
39:08I mean,
I'm de facto the founder of my party.
39:12And I could have turned the party into,
essentially,
39:16a personal political
vehicle if I'd wanted.
39:19But that was not my goal.
39:21My goal in political life,
I'm driven by my political conservatism.
39:26My goal in life was not just
to win an election and govern.
39:29My goal was to establish a long-term
conservative institutional force that
39:34would be a long-term contender for
power in government.
39:38And so I was determined to establish
an institutional organization that would
39:41outlive me and
would not need me down the road.
39:46So I did things very different than if I
simply wanted to amass power at all costs.
39:51>> And in your quest to establish that
long term conservative institutional
39:56platform, When the luck ran out, and
you were just left with decisions to make,
40:01you probably had to make some
choices that felt impossible.
40:04Did you ever make any decisions that
you wish you had made differently?
40:08>> Yeah.
40:09But I never say what those were.
40:10>> [LAUGH]
>> Well, look,
40:14I would say a couple of things.
40:16Obviously, there are all kinds of
things you would do different.
40:21More important in a public policy sense,
did I make decisions
40:27that I didn't want to make at the time.
40:33That's the more important thing,
40:34that I really wasn't
comfortable with at the time.
40:37The answer is yes.
40:39As a leader of a party, as somebody
dealing with political reality from time
40:44to time ahead to make decisions that
would not have been my first choice.
40:50That said,
I don't think on any really big thing
40:54that I ever find myself making a decision
that was fundamentally uncomfortable with.
40:57It may not even my optimal decision, but
40:59if I really thought it was
the wrong decision, a bad decision,
41:03as opposed to a non-optimal decision,
I would be pretty reluctant to take it.
41:10>> One last question before we shift
to questions from the audience.
41:13Another former finance minister,
Joe Oliver,
41:16said that one thing the media did not
portray enough i n the press, that is.
41:21>> Just one thing?
41:22>> [LAUGH]
>> Well, [LAUGH],
41:23one of the things he felt, anyways,
was your passion and pride for Canada.
41:28Could you talk a little bit more
about where this passion comes from?
41:32>> I don't know where it comes from.
41:36To some degree,
I think it's the way it should be.
41:40I'm a seventh generation Canadian.
41:41I tell this story, my great, great, great,
41:45great grandfather was settled
in Sackville, New Brunswick,
41:49then part of Nova Scotia in 1774, the year
before the American Revolution, and
41:55was the local leader in the militia for
the crown against the revolutionaries.
42:01So it goes back a long way.
42:03But look, I'm a product of my country.
42:09So much of what I've enjoyed in
life is because of my country.
42:13I don't think there are many
countries in the world where
42:16someone like me from a modest
middle class background and
42:19public school education would become the
leader of their country, a major country.
42:24I think that says a lot
about the kind of social and
42:28economic opportunity and
mobility we have in Canada.
42:32I love our country's history,
I love our country's geography.
42:35I won't as far as to tell you
that I always love the weather.
42:39But I am always turning the temperature
down in hotel rooms when
42:43I'm outside of Canada.
42:45So I must like it somewhat.
42:47>> [LAUGH]
>> But I think this is partly natural.
42:52What I don't understand, and
I say this about the other side,
42:56I don't understand the modern,
I would call modern elite liberalism,
43:00that often seems not to like its country.
43:03To me, being a nationalist, I'm not
talking a nativist or a xenophobe, but
43:09being a nationalist is something I would
have expected from any leader, most are.
43:15If you don't love your country, if you're
not deeply rooted in it, don't love it's
43:20people, don't love most things about it,
why are you leading it in the first place?
43:26So to me, this is just what you would
expect of someone who aspires to be head
43:30of government of a country.
43:33>> Thank you.
43:35Now we'll open it up to
questions from the audience.
43:39We've got one right there.
43:43>> Thanks very much for being here.
43:44My name is Audrey,
an undergrad in math and computer science.
43:47I was curious to hear your thoughts
on May 2008 financial crisis and
43:53broadly how you approached making
decisions and this whole process.
43:59>> Well, look obviously that
was an interesting time for
44:03me because I had begun my political career
and a policy since my number one focus,
44:10as economists, an economist whose
specialist is fiscal policy,
44:14was back in the 80s and
90s fixing Canada's fiscal problems.
44:19And creating a long term structural
balance, eliminating the debt problem.
44:26Of course, we did that in the 90s and
my first few years in government,
44:29I inherited a surplus, continued to run
a surplus, used it predominantly to reduce
44:34taxes by the way, which I think is
what a good conservative would do.
44:37But I didn’t use it to reverse taxes
in a way that would create a structural
44:40deficit, I wouldn't cut taxes
if I couldn't pay for it.
44:43All of a sudden we have
the 2008 financial crisis.
44:48People forget I'd even pledged in
the election campaign that I would not run
44:54a deficit,
despite what was impending recession.
44:59But what people forget is,
45:00each week, it was really something
to be in power at that time.
45:05From September of 2008 till, I would say,
45:10January, February of 2009,
we literally were in a situation where
45:15economic activity was visibly falling
around the globe every single week.
45:20And it was just incredible.
45:22You'd wake up every morning
45:24with cataclysmic economic
news all around the world.
45:28Well, it became apparent to me and
it was fortunate I had the right training.
45:32I'm not just a fiscal policy economist,
45:35my background is in economic history and
macroeconomic theory.
45:39And it became very apparent to me
that we run what I thought was
45:43a kind of a theoretical situation,
but coming to real life.
45:48And I concluded it was necessary for
us to run
45:51not just allow the budget to fall into
deficit, but it became necessary to
45:55run a significant stimulus program because
of the collapse of economic activity.
45:59And so we did that.
46:01But we also, with Minister Flaherty's,
the late Jim Flaherty,
46:05Finance Minister's guidance.
46:07As soon as we did that, we put in place
a program to gradually restore economic
46:11balance, which we did over five years.
46:14So it was a tough decision.
46:15By the way,
not an easy one to get through my caucus.
46:19A large percentage of my caucus
did not want us to run a deficit,
46:22did not want to run the stimulus program.
46:24But I think I was able to convince them,
partly because I was so
46:29known as a fiscal hawk, and also because
of my training, I was able to convince
46:34them that we were in a situation that
required extraordinary measures.
46:38But I assured them and assured Canadians
that we would not ruin the long-term
46:44financial structure of the country,
and we ultimately succeeded in that.
46:51>> Ernesto Silva, here.
46:53I'm a member of the Chilean Congress.
46:55>> Could you please stand up?
46:57>> Please, I'm sorry.
46:59Ernesto Silva,
I'm a member of the Chilean Congress.
47:02You mentioned that you were writing a book
47:05about how conservatives should
face the rise of populism.
47:09>> Yeah.
>> Could you comment a little bit on
47:11that, please.
47:11>> Yeah, I'll do it very quick.
47:14First of all, it's interesting to hear the
term populist described today as it is.
47:22Usually, pejoratively and
often pejoratively by conservatives,
47:26populists are anti-market,
anti-trade, etc.
47:30The Reform Party that I was involved
in founding described itself as
47:33a populist party.
47:35[LAUGH] It was for trade and for markets.
47:38It was really a populous party in the then
tradition of Thatcher and Reagan.
47:42So populism is a term that kind of has
different meanings and different contexts.
47:48I often think that when you see the term
populist used in the media today,
47:53it's used this way, we describe
outcomes we like as democracy and
47:58outcomes we don't like as populism.
48:00So I think there's a bit
of a loaded term there.
48:03But to the extent that in
the globalization age, that I like to
48:09think we as Conservatives brought about,
globalization, freer trade, free markets.
48:14Freer migration around the world,
we're now seeing a backlash to that.
48:18And I really believe that Conservatives,
that is,
48:24people who are students of human
experience, rather than just decry that.
48:29When we see our own voters being attracted
to that we need to ask ourselves why.
48:33And I think in the age of globalization
that way too many ordinary people
48:37are not doing well enough.
48:39And when you look at some of
the things the populous complain
48:41about in terms of trade policy or
48:43market policy or immigration policy,
globalism is a philosophy.
48:47I do think that in some cases,
48:49while we're generally on the right
track we pursue policies.
48:53That haven't really thought hard about
the actual impacts on ordinary people,
48:58that's what I always try to do.
49:00I would say I was not a blueprint kind of
politician, I don't believe in them.
49:04But I think in a lot of cases, politicians
have followed blueprints and have not been
49:09very conscious of how some market-oriented
policies actually impact people.
49:13And we should be making sure we
understand what those impacts are.
49:17Just to give an example,
in many Western countries,
49:22the large scale importation
of low-skilled workers.
49:28At a time when low-skilled workers
are under technological pressure and
49:31their wages are falling.
49:32This makes no sense in terms of
the social outcomes it produces.
49:36Allowing foreign non-residents
to buy significant blocks
49:42of residential real estate and leave
it unoccupied in major urban centers.
49:49Yeah, that's an open market policy,
but what is the social utility of that
49:53other than to drive people out
of the areas they live in?
49:57So I think we really have to think hard,
make sure, I'm a strong believer
50:02that over time, only market-oriented
policies really create growth.
50:07But they can take a lot of forms and
50:10you have to pursue them in ways
that are getting good outcomes.
50:13Too many working middle class people in
Western countries, especially this one,
50:18by the way,
have simply not been doing very well.
50:21And we have to understand why that is and
50:27adapt to those concerns.
50:32If voters go a different way,
no point telling them they're wrong,
50:35in a democracy the voters
are always right.
50:38So our voters are telling us, we're off
track, we better listen to what those
50:41messages are and figure out which messages
are right and which messages are wrong.
50:47Take one more question?
50:48>> Hi, my name is Amy, I'm a finance PhD
student here at the GSP, I'm also a proud
50:54Canadian who has been in the United States
since college, almost a decade ago.
51:00Over this period of time I sense a growing
divide between the coastal elite and
51:04the rest of America.
51:06As you travel around Canada, do you
sense the same trend of polarization?
51:11>> The answer to that is no.
51:14Canada has not had the kind
of political polarization or
51:19this modern manifestation
of more extreme populism.
51:23That we've seen in the United States and
other parts of the world.
51:26And the reason for that,
I like to think is really rather simple.
51:29It's that in Canada, middle and
working class people have had fairly
51:35steady income growth even through
the global financial crisis.
51:41And so I think that I think there may be
other factors driving the polarization.
51:48But Canada is not immune,
if we practise a series of
51:52bad economic policies over
a long enough period of time.
51:55And people start to feel dispossessed or
51:56ignored by the political system we
could get the same thing in Canada.
51:59But we don't have it today,
we have had political change,
52:03we have political debate,
we have parties with different views.
52:08But it's not a deeply
rooted social cleavage,
52:11which is what really strikes me here.
52:13Really strikes me about the United States
is not simply the political polarization.
52:18But the degree to which it actually
reflects, in my experience,
52:22the American public.
52:24I'll just tell you, I've told
Canadians for a long period of time,
52:27in my experience.
52:29George W Bush was president,
Barack Obama was president,
52:31obviously now with Donald Trump.
52:33I would say to people, if you go to
the United States don't give your
52:38opinion of George W Bush or
Barack Obama or Donald Trump.
52:41Until you know what the listener thinks
because I guarantee he's on one side or
52:45the other, and
that's just the way the country is here.
52:49And I think it's worrisome, but
52:51I think underlying it is the fact
that tens of millions of Americans.
52:57Who used to have a good middle
class lifestyle no longer do and
53:01this is a serious problem
that has got to be fixed.
53:05>> So
I wanted to wrap with a last question and
53:07draw on a few things that you
just talked about with us today.
53:10You've mentioned some pretty technocratic
terms, social utility and productivity,
53:15these are the terms of somebody who's
clearly deeply versed in economic policy.
53:19I wanted to step back though and ask
about the emotional aspect of leadership.
53:26And specifically,
53:27the ways in which you unite people through
the emotional appeal of your leadership.
53:33And a lot of these themes that you've
spoken about with conservatism are still
53:37getting at what ultimately what the voters
ultimately want and what's best for them.
53:41How do you ensure that they connect
emotionally to your policy views and
53:46to ultimately what
conservatism is trying to do?
53:49>> Well look, it's a good question and
I'm not going to get up and
53:52claim it was one of my strengths, it's not
a strength of conservatism, by the way.
53:56I think if you look at other movements,
54:00whether they be on the right or
on the left, modern liberalism, socialism,
54:05nationalism, modern right-wing populism.
54:09These are at their heart,
more essentially emotional appeals,
54:15I do think, not that we have to
connect to people where they live,
54:21and they live emotionally.
54:23But I honestly think that people tend,
and I say to conservative leaders.
54:27People tend to turn to conservatives when
they're really deeply worried and they
54:32want sensible solutions, and when they
want something beyond the mere emotional.
54:36They want to be convinced that there's
somebody who actually knows what they're
54:39doing and that it will work.
54:41And so, while I think it's important
to connect emotionally, and
54:45we often don't do a good
enough job with that.
54:47I think conservatism can never be a purely
emotional political philosophy the way
54:51some of the others are.
54:54>> Ladies and gentlemen,
54:55please put your hands together for Mr
54:56>> [APPLAUSE]
>> Thank you very much!
55:01>> Thank you!
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