00:05good evening everyone welcome to the
00:07howto academy my name is David Malone um
00:10and thank you very much for choosing to
00:12join us for tonight's debate about Free
00:14Will and if I could point out the
00:16obvious in a debate like this it may be
00:19of course that you didn't choose of your
00:21own free will to join this debate it may
00:23be in fact that you had no choice in the
00:25matter at all to help us decide whether
00:27you did or didn't choose to join us we
00:30have two fantastic speakers this evening
00:33um Robert spolski he's a professor of
00:35biology and neurology at Stanford
00:38University a a recipient of the
00:41MacArthur Foundation genius Grant I
00:45self-explanatory and he's written a new
00:47book called determined life without Free
00:50Will joining him um we have one of the
00:53other most influential philosophers Dan
00:55Dennett he's ameritus professor of
00:58philosophy at tfts University he's
01:00written extensively about the workings
01:01of the mind about Consciousness and has
01:03also written about Free Will and he too
01:05has a new book called I've been thinking
01:09um and amongst other things we're going
01:11to discuss this evening will be
01:13determinism what is it free will do we
01:16have it and even if we do is it what we
01:18thought it was and if not why not um
01:21before we start uh there is a poll which
01:25you um as listeners can look at decide
01:28how many of you are on the side of Free
01:30Will and how many on the deci side of
01:32determinism while you're deciding that
01:35um let me explain how it will work each
01:37of our speakers will have 10 minutes to
01:39convince you of their point of view
01:41they'll then have a further 10 minutes
01:43to respond and then we'll have a
01:45discussion and some questions and then
01:47we'll see if we'll pull you again see if
01:49anyone's changed their mind um Robert um
01:53Dan thank you both very much for joining
01:55us um Robert would you um would you like
02:01start sure I'd be happy to and thanks
02:05for having me here and thanks Dan for
02:11well so you've got 10 minutes 10 minutes
02:14to to convince us of what he will okay I
02:17thought we were gonna be given the uh
02:19the polling results but no I guess
02:23cliffhanger okay so to start uh just to
02:28start with a very subtle nuance St I
02:30think there is no free will whatsoever
02:33um I think that is abundantly clear and
02:36on top of that um I think if people
02:39started believing that it would be a far
02:41more Humane world this would be a very
02:44good thing now looking at the fact that
02:47people very strongly hold on to the
02:50notion of free will I want to try to
02:52unpack one of the things that really
02:55sort of fuels that stance which is we
02:58make decisions we we make choices we sit
03:01there we choose vanilla over chocolate
03:03ice cream we choose to pull a trigger or
03:06not to do so we are full of intent at
03:09that moment and we make a choice and
03:12there is something intuitively truly
03:14seductive about that and unpacking the
03:18choice the intent we know we have the
03:21intent at that point we have a pretty
03:23good sense what the consequence is going
03:25to be we know we're not being coerced
03:28there's Alternatives available to us and
03:30to most people and to courts of law in
03:33the United States that's enough you have
03:37responsibility and my starting point is
03:40that tells us nothing whatsoever about
03:42free will it is completely irrelevant to
03:45it whether we form an intent to do this
03:49or to do that that is completely
03:52irrelevant for a very simple reason
03:54because assessing Behavior based on that
03:57is like reviewing a movie when all
04:00you've seen is the last three minutes of
04:02the movie because what you're never ever
04:04asking with that stance is oh yeah where
04:08did that intent come from how did you
04:11become the sort of person where that is
04:14the sort of intent you would form at
04:16that moment because that's really the
04:18only thing to do it's the only question
04:21to ask okay let me give you a scenario
04:23that is Laden with intent and choice you
04:26got two people they go in they watch a
04:28movie the movie is some inspirational
04:31movie about some guy who previously has
04:35been obscure and now does something
04:36incredibly heroic and the first person
04:39comes out of the movie with an intent
04:42and a choice they say oh my God that was
04:44so inspirational right now I'm going to
04:46go over to that Booth by the popcorn
04:48stand and I'm going to sign over my life
04:51savings to Doctors Without Borders
04:53that's how inspired I am I intend to do
04:55that and the second person has an intent
04:59makes a choice at that point and they
05:01says oh my God that was the most
05:03outrageously manipulative movie I can't
05:06believe that script the cinematography
05:09was terrible I'm outraged I'm offended
05:11that they would charge my I'm outraged
05:13at the theater and I am going to go
05:15right now and demand my money back okay
05:19so we see two people who acted with
05:21intent made choices and the question
05:24obviously then is how did they become
05:27the sorts of people where those are the
05:29choic es that they would make where
05:31those are the intents they would form
05:33and if you come from a world of biology
05:36as I do uh that's a whole hierarchy of
05:39questions because there's a whole
05:41hierarchy of things that went into each
05:43of those people intending to do what
05:46they do part of what was playing out in
05:48the previous minutes to hours were they
05:51angry were they hungry were they in pain
05:53were they sleep deprived were they
05:55stressed were they scared whatever
05:58because we know people people's choices
06:00will change dramatically in those
06:02circumstances people's judgment people's
06:04executive control people's capacity to
06:08make one site type of decision if it is
06:10a tougher one but it is more appealing
06:13in the long run okay so that matters
06:16what also matters in the previous hours
06:18to days are hormone levels because that
06:21will have if you had elevated levels of
06:24oxytocin you're more likely to be
06:26trusting of what the movie was telling
06:28you if you elevated levels of
06:30testosterone you were more likely to be
06:32pissed off and perceive the movie makers
06:35as having bad intent but you also have
06:38to ask what was going on in the previous
06:40months to decades as one example if you
06:43had had a trauma and you now have PTSD
06:47post-traumatic stress disorder a
06:49structure in your brain the amydala will
06:52have grown larger and we can tell you
06:54down to the molecules exactly how that
06:57works and when you have an amydala like
06:59that in circumstances that other people
07:01would decide are neutral you're going to
07:04decide it's provocative and threatening
07:07and even though we understand much less
07:09about it the same changes the same drama
07:11would have occurred in your brain if in
07:13the previous months of the Decades you
07:16had found love you had found God you had
07:18found all of that matters okay so now we
07:21got to Barrel back to adolescence and
07:24childhood and I think no one needs to be
07:26convinced by now that the type of
07:28childhood you have have influences the
07:30type of adult you become what we've been
07:32learning since are the nuts and bolts
07:35the epigenetics of how the brain you
07:38have as an adult sitting and watching
07:40that movie is going to be vastly
07:42influenced by how many traumas you had
07:46as a child how much adversity how much
07:48stimulation and there's a whole world of
07:51Developmental people who even have a
07:53scoring system what is your Ace score
07:56your adverse childhood experience score
07:59were you physically abused
08:01psychologically sexually were you
08:03witnessed to did you have a family
08:04member who was incarcerated was there
08:06somebody with a substance abuse problem
08:10additional you know score you get in
08:13that questionnaire there's about a 35%
08:16increased chance that by Young adulthood
08:18you will have a history of antisocial
08:20violence childhood matters the culture
08:23you were raised in as a child matters
08:26are you raised in a culture of Honor
08:28because that's as an adult you were more
08:31likely to Advocate aggressive responses
08:34to ambiguous social circumstances and
08:36you're more likely to secrete stress
08:38hormones at the time were you raised in
08:40an individualistic or a collectivist
08:43culture because that's going to
08:45influence your levels of trust and
08:47cooperation with people you don't know
08:49were you raised in a culture with this
08:52value with that to turn the other cheek
08:55to take revenge because if they take
08:57your camel now and you do nothing
08:59tomorrow they'll take the rest of your
09:01camels all of this is instantiated in
09:04the brain you develop but you got to
09:06push back even further back to your
09:08fetal life because what was going on
09:11there was directing the brain and its
09:14construction that you were going to have
09:15now in that moment forming that intent
09:18in that movie theater if for example you
09:20were exposed to a lot of stress hormones
09:23as a fetus because Mom was stressed as
09:25hell trying to pay the rent being
09:29you're going to develop a larger amydala
09:32and as a result you are going to have an
09:35elevated stress response which is going
09:37to make your judgment and executive
09:39control not as effective as usual if you
09:43were as a fetus deprived of calories as
09:47an adult you're more likely to form the
09:50the intent screw Amnesty International
09:53and screwed getting my money back I'm
09:54going to go get a lot more popcorn
09:57because you will have developed with
09:58fewer dopamine neurons in your reward
10:01area and you will have less
10:03satiation and you will be more prone
10:06towards adult Ona diabetes metabolic
10:09syndrome hypertension obesity all of
10:12that because of your fetal life then we
10:15got to push a step further back genes
10:18genes determine next to nothing people
10:21have to be weaned off to that notion of
10:23sort of genetic molecular fundamentalism
10:26but what genes do is influence how you
10:29are going to respond to environment and
10:32by now we know we differ from one person
10:35to the next the variance of genes we
10:37have related to hormones like oxytocin
10:41and vasopressin how able are you to have
10:44empathy how trusting are you how
10:47generous hormone genes related to your
10:50stress response do you see threat that
10:53other people don't genes related to your
10:56vulnerability to mood disorders anxiety
10:59disorders genes related to your
11:01propensity towards violence depending on
11:04whether you were abused as a child or
11:06not all of these come into
11:08it one more minute one you've got to
11:11push one step further back culture where
11:14did that come from if your ancestors
11:17grew up in a world with a heavy
11:18infectious disease load you're likely to
11:21be more hostile to immigration if your
11:23ancestors grew up as Shepherds you are
11:26more likely to be aggressive than if
11:28they grew grew up as Farmers where is
11:31Behavior coming from where's
11:32responsibility coming from it's coming
11:34from 1 second ago to thousands of years
11:37ago and what we have here are a number
11:39of punchlines the first one is history
11:43matters the past isn't even p and what
11:46we see over and over is the biology of
11:49why luck does not even out over time as
11:53Dan has often said instead bad luck
11:56amplifies and good luck and privilege
11:58amplify in the opposite direction what
12:01we also see is a realm where these are
12:04not just biological influences if you're
12:07talking about genes you're talking about
12:09their evolution you're talking about the
12:11epigenetics of your fetal life that
12:13regulate them you're talking about the
12:14proteins they made 20 minutes ago it
12:17forms one continuous Arc of biology in
12:21which there is not a crack there into
12:24which you can shoehorn free will if it
12:27was 500 years ago and somebody said wow
12:30we just noticed when people get hammered
12:32over the head their behavior changes the
12:34brain may be relevant that's one thing
12:37we know a ton now we know enough to
12:41present the challenge show me a brain a
12:45person who has just done something
12:47completely independent of every one of
12:50those biological environmental
12:51influences I just outlined and youve
12:54proven there's free will and at this
12:56point we know enough of this bi ology
12:59that the onus is on the Free Will
13:02Believers unless you can show evidence
13:05of people's actions people's behavior
13:07people's personalities proclivities
13:10desires Etc being independent of their
13:13biological environmental history you've
13:16presented no evidence that Free Will
13:18exists and the only default stance there
13:20is is to doubt that it's exists to not
13:25existence thank you um before I ask you
13:28to start we the the results of the the
13:30poll were 59% did believe in Free Will
13:3441% didn't that's where we started
13:37Robert thank you um Dan there's the
13:43yes first of all I I would like to uh
13:46issue a little disclaimer about your
13:48poll you asked whether you believe in
13:50determinism or free will I believe in
13:53both determinism and Free Will and
13:56because I think that what Robert shows
13:59so eloquently is that he's been taken in
14:03by the philosophers who have inflated
14:06the idea of Free Will Way Beyond what it
14:09has to be and he says if if you can't
14:12point to and a decision you make which
14:15is completely free of all earlier uh uh
14:21considerations and influences then then
14:24you can't show free will but that's a
14:26that's just a Daft notion of free will
14:30and there's a strange tension in in in
14:33Robert's 10 minutes there what's he
14:37doing why is he talking to me does he
14:40think he convince me he can convince me
14:42or convince anybody I think I can
14:45convince people and I think he thinks he
14:47can convince people and that's because
14:50we are both receptive to reasons now I
14:54agree with everything he says about the
14:57hormonal and developmental and
15:01epistatic uh developments that impinge
15:04on who one is at the time that's the raw
15:08material each of us starts with and we
15:10don't start in the same place as he says
15:13in this book life isn't fair and that's
15:16true there tremendous differences in
15:18style in in talent in accomplishment in
15:24education and upbringing in nutrition
15:29true the whole point of free will is
15:33that this is a socially
15:36evolved system which minimizes those
15:41which takes steps to make the world
15:46everybody I counted on Robert being here
15:50today I'm sure he counted on my being
15:52here we both are reliable people you can
15:55trust us that's one of the key elements
16:02self-controlled now Robert says go
16:06back years and years and years go back
16:09before your birth I want to go back even
16:11further I want to go back to the
16:13life because when Evolution gets started
16:17what begins is a process of skill
16:22development the very first living things
16:24were better at staying alive and making
16:26progyny than the alternative
16:29and it's been a growth of skill and
16:33competence ever since and there's skills
16:38that Robert and I have that many people
16:41don't have and there's other skills that
16:43we don't have I can't play the violin I
16:46I I can't dance the minuette I I can't
16:51read Persian there's lots of things I
16:54can't do too bad but I've got my own set
16:57of skills he's got his own set of skills
17:00and what civilization has done is to
17:05over the centuries over the Millennia
17:09what civilization has done is to distill
17:13out the most important skills for making
17:17people safe and reliable citizens and
17:19that is do they have the skill of
17:24now that's what evolution is all about
17:27evolution is about the evolution of the
17:35self-controlled because we have many
17:37more degrees of freedom than any other
17:40living thing on the planet we have a lot
17:42more skill if a tree falls and kills
17:46somebody we don't hold it responsible it
17:48doesn't have the skill it doesn't have
17:50the perceptual organs it's not able to
17:54prevent foreseeable damages because it
18:01now he uh there there's a quote that I
18:05love from from the late great uh
18:09novelist and critic Tom Wolf who said
18:11the uh the conclusion people out beyond
18:15the library walls laboratory walls or
18:18drawing is the fix is in we're all
18:21hardwired that and don't blame me I'm
18:25wrong well if you're wired wrong I won't
18:28blame you but what about being wired
18:31right not perfectly but well
18:34enough to be held responsible and to
18:39responsible I assume Robert has a
18:42license he has self-control enough
18:46he's I'm not scared if he's out on the
18:49highway because he's basically sane and
18:51he has self-control there are other
18:53people who shouldn't be on the highway
18:56now one of the points that he makes a
18:58great deal of in his book and it's an
19:00important one is that we have to draw
19:02the line somewhere some people just miss
19:06the boat for having the kind of skill
19:09the kind of self-control that entitles
19:14them to treat themselves as responsible
19:18agents to make contracts to make
19:21promises to take care of yourself to go
19:23free in the world now we're learning
19:28every day and Robert has a lot to say
19:32about this ways in which people have
19:35diminished selfcontrol diminished
19:39capacity and we have to recognize that
19:43Beyond some point and it's going to have
19:44to be arbitrary like driver's license
19:48age we have to say I'm
19:53responsible you have lost your free will
19:57it has nothing to do with
19:59determinism it has everything to do with
20:04control I'm getting old I may lose my
20:07marbles one of these days and then I'll
20:09lose my selfcontrol I'll lose my free
20:12will Free Will is an achievement it's a
20:15skill it's not a metaphysical
20:18feature so when you understand that Free
20:23Will is something that has
20:30described in some detail and with lots
20:33of improvements over the centuries by
20:37civilizations and we've made tremendous
20:40progress one of the things I really
20:42admire about about Robert's book is he
20:44goes back and gives lots of detail about
20:47the horrific punishments that used to
20:50pass mustard that used to be considered
20:52all none of us want to live in that
20:54world that's terrible look we've made
20:56Improvement we've gotten better better
20:58we've evolved we've arrived at a point
21:02where we don't draw on quarter people we
21:05don't and and we don't need
21:09the horrific blame of guilt in the eyes
21:14of God that's that's a a barbarism that
21:21exclude one more minute yeah one more
21:29I I find myself in an odd position of
21:31saying to a biologist that he should
21:38Evolution as the title of my book
21:41Freedom evolves makes clear shows it
21:44there was no Free Will at all billions
21:46of years ago and the Free Will has been
21:49growing and growing and growing as we
21:51become ever more capable of controlling
21:54ourselves and controlling each other and
21:58thinking about how to control ourselves
22:00and improving our methods of
22:01self-control and there's a long way to
22:07has spoken about the desire to educate
22:12people and get them to
22:15see well he wants to say that they don't
22:18have free will I say they don't have the
22:20kind of free will that some philosophers
22:21say they should but that's not a variety
22:24of free will that anyone should should
22:26care about it's not it's not worth
22:28having I have never seen
22:30anybody explain why it would be
22:33desirable to have an
22:36undetermined will we want our will to be
22:39determined by the facts and by our
22:42values that's what self-control is one
22:50that I wouldn't actually invite him to
22:53to back off on he says at one point it's
22:56logically indefensible ludicrous
22:58meaningless to think that something good
23:06machine I'm an evolved machine made of
23:08machines made of machines made of
23:10machines there's nothing magic about me
23:14but good things can happen to me and bad
23:15things can happen to me that's how good
23:24Robert has a secret yearning for a sort
23:30power which he realizes he can't
23:34have okay I no you can have
23:40it Robert um thank you Dan Robert um
23:44would you like to respond um take up to
23:4710 minutes to do so you're muted at the
23:51moment unfortunately I'm in Manhattan
23:54right now so there's at least four fire
23:56engines quarter mile radius but that's
24:00just the norm here well amazingly enough
24:04I don't agree with everything you said
24:05Dan amid my greatly admiring sort of the
24:09the eloquence with which you've argued
24:10for free will I think there's something
24:13very interesting that you brought up
24:14that quote of mine at the end which was
24:17saying it's ridiculous to say that
24:19anything good can happen to a machine
24:22you didn't finish the quote where I then
24:26nonetheless at my very core I think it
24:28is a good thing when we are made to have
24:32lives with less pain and more happiness
24:35um so agree with me yes okay so a good
24:39addendum there okay so where we don't
24:41agree H one other thing we agree on both
24:44of us agree that we lest we get caught
24:46in the sort of mud with this we both
24:49think punishment and reward are okay to
24:52use in an instrumental sense so
24:55completely in agreement on that okay so
24:57where not in agreement and so the first
25:00issue is an interesting one in terms of
25:03what you describe sort of the evolution
25:05of you point out say we do not fle
25:08people and burn them at the stake
25:10anymore we have evolved and in some way
25:13I think you're equating that that we
25:16have evolved to have more free will
25:19because you're yoking our capacity for
25:21self- contr control to Evolution an
25:23awful lot the fact that we don't burn
25:25people at the stake anymore I think
25:28exactly the opposite which is over and
25:31over throughout history we have learned
25:34ah someone is actually not responsible
25:37for this somebody does not control the
25:40weather and thus deserves to be burned
25:42at the stake as a witch ah somebody has
25:45an epileptic seizure not because they're
25:48sleeping with Satan ah somebody has
25:51trouble learning to read because they
25:53have dyslexia and we know the
25:55neuroanatomy of it rather than they're
25:58lazy and unmotivated at each one of
26:00these steps where we have subtracted out
26:03responsibility where we have viewed the
26:05world as having less free will it's
26:08become a much nicer place to live in now
26:12it's a second Point sort of you're
26:14alluding to to what I think is another
26:18incredibly like tempting seductive way
26:22to in which to get into trouble which is
26:25to make this false dichotomy yes most
26:28people will admit we have no control
26:30over some of the attributes that we were
26:32given that we were gifted with that we
26:34were cursed with and so on some of us
26:37are tall some of us have perfect pitch
26:39some of us have good memory spans for
26:42digits some of us this or that and you
26:45know we were given these traits yeah
26:47yeah yeah most people will now believe
26:49rather than being Calvinists that this
26:52was outside our realm of control what
26:55people then do is this like like Leap
26:58Frog over this Grand Canyon of a false
27:01dichotomy into but where we have free
27:04will is what we do with those attributes
27:08do we show tenacity do we show gumption
27:12and backbone when the going gets tough
27:15do the tough get going do we show
27:18self-control or conversely are we
27:20privileged and gifted and we squander it
27:23away with self-indulgence the seduction
27:26is that things like oh how good your
27:29memory span is what type of receptor you
27:31have for this neurotransmitter relevant
27:33to memory yeah yeah yeah that stuff you
27:36were given but what you do with it more
27:39gumption your control or lack thereof
27:42that's made of fairy dust that's magical
27:44stuff that's a completely different
27:46category and what we see is self-control
27:50is as biological of a trait as is your
27:53eye color as is your capacity to play
27:57the piano as is your height it's a
27:59different kind of biology for my money
28:01it's a hell of a lot more interesting
28:03biology but it is just as biological and
28:06what it's embedded in is a squishy real
28:10biologically yucky part of the brain
28:13called the prefrontal cortex you develop
28:16a good prefrontal cortex you are going
28:18to be good at showing self-control as an
28:21adult you will be better at doing the
28:24hard thing when it is the right thing to
28:26do are we responsible for the sort of
28:29prefrontal cortices we have not a chance
28:32here's one example that should stop
28:34people right in their tracks that that
28:36should have people out you know yelling
28:39at the barricades and singing like
28:41revolutionary songs from lay Miz by the
28:44time a child is five years old the
28:47socioeconomic status of their parents is
28:50already a predictor of the thickness of
28:53their prefrontal cortex and its
28:55metabolic rate and big surprise it goes
28:58in the direction of if you very
29:01imprudently intended and chose to be
29:03born into a family in poverty you're G
29:07to have a screwed up prefrontal cortex
29:08on the average by the time you're five
29:10years old bad luck evens out over time
29:15gumption is not made of biology this is
29:18the biology which every step along the
29:21after word is the biology and
29:23interactions with environment of why at
29:26virtually every juncture this person is
29:28going to make the wrong decision and go
29:30in the wrong direction and it has as
29:33little to do with choice and Free Will
29:36as your eye color does I think the final
29:39point I want to make with that is
29:41running through that is a notion again
29:45of the gumption angle is a source of
29:48pulling out judgment and responsibility
29:51which I think is simply antithetical or
29:54where the science is if I can have a
29:56quote of yours stand quote a good runner
29:59who starts at the back of the pack if he
30:01is really good enough to deserve winning
30:05will probably have plenty of opportunity
30:06to overcome the initial disadvantage in
30:10other words if he fails to show s
30:13sufficient gumption to make up for that
30:16deficit he doesn't deserve to win it is
30:19a moral judgment that he was not able to
30:22overcome his initial bad luck because
30:25control is made out of magic
30:27control is something that is not made
30:29out of biology and I obviously strongly
30:33disagree with that I think the very last
30:36Point Dan is there's another realm in
30:39which I think you've been seduced into a
30:42great Embrace of Free Will which is
30:44you've got a lot more faith and
30:47intuition than I think is Justified for
30:50example you have the really interesting
30:52two-stage model of decision making which
30:56let's not get into it but I disagree
30:57with blah blah big surprise but you say
31:00one of its strengths is it aligns with
31:02our intuitions quote that model quote
31:05provide some account of our important
31:08intuition that we are the authors of our
31:10moral decisions in other words your
31:14model for why there's some free will is
31:17more acceptable because it fits with our
31:19intuition that we have free will and I
31:21think my last Point here that I want to
31:23make is intuition is a really lousy
31:27guide for thinking about how the world
31:29works let me give you an example I will
31:32bet Dan if you and I were sitting in a
31:36cafe 400 years ago we were the same
31:39people and just as reflective and we
31:41would have like given money to NPR if it
31:44existed at the time and all of that we
31:46would have been the same reasonable
31:47people it would have been probably
31:50intuitively obvious to us that certain
31:53people are meant to be slaves in fact
31:55they're so incapable of taking care of
31:57themselves it's a blessing to enslave
31:59them and feed them and clothe them and
32:01that and that's not intuitively obvious
32:04to us anymore it's not intuitively
32:06obvious that it's okay to have foury
32:09olds work in factories but in the past
32:11would have seemed intuitively obvious to
32:13us as well it's no longer intuitively
32:17obvious that a kid who has a cortical
32:19malformation and as a result reverses
32:22looped letters and has trouble learning
32:24to read because of their dyslexia it's
32:26no longer intuitively obvious to us that
32:29they're lazy and unmotivated but 40 50
32:32years ago I suspect both of us would
32:35have found it obvious that this is a kid
32:37who just really isn't paying attention
32:39isn't motivated over and over and over
32:42our intuitions have proven wrong over
32:45and over when we realize our intuitions
32:48are a very poor litmus test and we
32:52intuitively punishing and rewarding and
32:57judging and all of that for things
32:59people had no control over over and over
33:02when we recognize that these intuitions
33:05in fact are based on responsibility
33:07which is simply not there the world
33:09becomes a better place it really is a
33:12very good thing that we figured out
33:15witches don't control the weather and we
33:17figured out that rotten
33:20psychoanalytically poisonous mothers
33:22don't cause schizophrenia and that
33:24people with a certain variant of a gene
33:27for the leptin receptor have trouble
33:29having their brain satiate rather than
33:31them just hating themselves and thus
33:33eating themselves into obesity at every
33:36one of these steps our initial
33:38intuitions have proven very very suspect
33:41and wrong and at each step when we
33:43actually learn what's going on we we
33:47subtract responsibility out of it and
33:49not only doesn't the societal roof fall
33:51in it becomes a much better place to
33:54live in okay thank you um
33:57Dan would you like to take 10 minutes to
34:00respond yes indeed um first of all thank
34:03you Robert for giving me some wonderful
34:06examples to talk about you quote me
34:09twice and in both cases you ignore the
34:12fact that I reject the view that you
34:14quote so uh I forgive you for that
34:19responsible uh you couldn't help it it
34:21was your it was the various imbalances
34:25in your brain that LED you to
34:29misunderstand the quote about the about
34:32the marathon the very passage where you
34:35cite in in your book page uh what 376 of
34:40Freedom Evol I go on to say but that's
34:43wrong I say I say uh that that uh
34:48misleads uh it underplays the role of
34:51non fortuitous breaks in the race to
34:54responsible agood if you'd read the rest
34:57of the sentence but I guess you were not
34:59didn't have enough self-control to do
35:01that but if you had you would have
35:02realized that you were misquoting me and
35:05as for the two-stage model the whole
35:08point of that article is to say the
35:10two-stage model doesn't work so you sort
35:14of admitted that that I didn't endorse
35:16that model so you found one thing that I
35:20gain say about it I said well you know
35:22it does meet an intuition but I didn't
35:25on that ground support the model in fact
35:28I rejected the model so but since you
35:33responsibility I don't blame
35:35you um um I'm I'm a little sorry I'm a
35:39little disappointed that you don't take
35:42responsibility for these errors I try to
35:45take responsibility for my errors and I
35:48would hope other people would too um
35:54uh at one point you say
35:58as we've seen rejection of Free Will
36:01doesn't Doom you to break bad not if
36:04you've been educated about the roots of
36:07where our Behavior comes
36:09from I agree with that with everything
36:13except you're taking on the definition
36:15of Free Will as as being uh incompatible
36:19with determinism but it's not that's
36:22what compatible ISS say we say no you
36:25don't need indeterminism when what you
36:28need is chaos you do need that
36:34messy impossible to predict going on in
36:39your neocortex and elsewhere in your
36:41brain because we have to be a little bit
36:45unpredictable we have to keep our
36:47counsel we don't want to be controlled
36:49by others the whole key to Free Will
36:54is yes you're not responsible
36:58becoming a free willed responsible
37:01person but once You' become one you now
37:03have the talent to resist being turned
37:07into a puppet you can maintain your
37:10autonomy in the face of other other
37:13influences now not always but at least
37:17you know you should try and you do and I
37:21really admire the honesty of your book
37:24you acknowledge a lot of your own uh
37:28mental imbalances that bother you and
37:32saying you already agree with me that
37:35Free Will of the sort that I'm talking
37:39about is a desirable thing it's what you
37:42strive for and what to a very great
37:47you achieve you say at one
37:53point first it isn't Free Will and
37:56respons possibility just because on the
37:58social level everyone says it is that's
38:01the central point of the book and I'm
38:04saying that sentence reveals that you
38:07have bought the pathetic line of those
38:12incompatible philosophers who insist
38:14that Free Will depends on
38:16indeterminism it doesn't it depends on
38:19Randomness let me let me put a question
38:21to you does evolution depend on
38:25indeterminism or on Randomness like a
38:28coin flip coin flips aren't random
38:31they're just not controllable they're
38:33determined they're just not controllable
38:36Evolution depends on the uncontrollable
38:39generation of diversity but that doesn't
38:42you can't prove indeterminism by citing
38:46natural selection as your proof because
38:49natural selection works fine with
38:58Robert do you do you want to answer
39:01that yeah very briefly um this is your
39:04two-stage model Dan which is stage one
39:07is a generation of Randomness a chaotic
39:10ISM that bubbles up all sorts of options
39:14for behavior and as you point out
39:16filtering out the nonsense what should I
39:18do next bark like a dog that's probably
39:20not very viable a reasonable number of
39:23them and then stage two you choose you
39:26choose you weigh them you reflect all of
39:29that and you choose which of those
39:30options you do and all that does is take
39:33us back to where I started how did you
39:35wind up being the sort of person where
39:38that's the choice you would make that
39:39that's the values that you have that
39:42that's the thing you consider to be most
39:44important that's the same issue again
39:47you did not choose to become the sort of
39:49person who would make that choice at
39:51that point it's absolutely a choice at
39:54that point and yes I agree with your
39:56sort of chaotic ISM of generating
39:58options doing a couple of filterings
40:01Richard Dawkins has done fascinating
40:03stuff on how we filter out the nonsense
40:05of options and algorithms for doing that
40:08we focus in on the reasonable stuff and
40:10then the sort of person that
40:13circumstances outside your
40:15control have made you chooses among the
40:19options we're back to where I started
40:23absolutely well Robert uh
40:28you yes you you and I are who we are
40:32because of that whole long history that
40:34goes back to the birth of life
40:37but one of the wonderful things about
40:42what civilization has managed to do is
40:45to create a perspective where that
40:48doesn't matter all that much and where
40:51because of Education because of all the
40:54research that you and your colleag do
40:57we've learned how to address and
41:01counteract a lot of the effects and
41:04where we can't counteract them we excuse
41:06people some people don't have free will
41:10people do have free will that they get
41:14because they have been fortunate enough
41:17to know they weren't responsible for
41:19this but they were lucky enough to get
41:22treated for the conditions that now
41:26adapted their brains for citizenship and
41:31I agree with you we should do a lot more
41:32you say at one point in your book uh
41:35we've got to have education we've got to
41:37teach people what the what the real
41:39sources of a lot of these uh motivations
41:43are and we are doing it and we have been
41:45doing it and that's what free will is
41:48and it's only because we can do that
41:51that we can treat one group of human
41:57not the young children not the scile not
42:02as capable of taking
42:05responsibility for the judgments they
42:08make and we hold them responsible and
42:11they hold themselves responsible and as
42:14I've said at one point the ideal system
42:17of punishment and I'm glad you agree
42:19with me that punishment is a necessity
42:22you can't have a civilization without
42:24punishment without Law and Order
42:27the ideal situation of circumstance of
42:30punishment is where you have a system of
42:32punishment which is so fair and so non
42:36awful that the person punished says
42:42that um would you mind if I ask a couple
42:47of questions and I hope my questions
42:48won't be too um silly but Robert if I
42:54you if I've OD you are you suggesting
42:58that you you wrote this book a big long
43:00tremendously interesting book are you
43:03saying that the book was written as the
43:06culmination of all the circumstances of
43:09your life that you didn't that none of
43:11your thoughts were in a sense willed by
43:14you that the book was written through
43:17you by the circumstances of the whole of
43:20yours it's it's an odd situation but I
43:23think that's what you're saying and if
43:24if if you're not saying that please
43:26clear up my misunderstanding oh that's
43:28absolutely the case and that was my
43:32thinking and where I was at even before
43:34I became daed from Reading
43:38philosophers it is a very dangerous
43:40thing I can tell you yeah I I know this
43:43now as a biologist um yeah that's the
43:47reality and as Dan alludes to it
43:50produces a tremendous challenge for us
43:54we are biological machines just like
43:57amoeba are but we are the only
43:59biological machines that can know our
44:02Machin and that produces everything from
44:05self-reflection to phenomenal Neurosis
44:08to like denial to everything else on
44:11Earth we're the only ones who are
44:13capable of simultaneously saying wow
44:17that's nice that that person just
44:18complimented me on on the color of my
44:22eyes while saying that's completely
44:24asinine I had nothing to do with it wow
44:28to say that's a great job that you did
44:31that you're now CEO of the company and
44:34recogniz you at the same time I was
44:36already born on third base I had all of
44:41weird troubled foed species for that
44:45reason because we can know our machine
44:47this at the same time that we can fall
44:53palpability with which we feel as if we
44:55are are captains of our own fate and
44:59what that winds up meaning is yeah it's
45:00hard it's hard it's hard to keep that in
45:02mind keep it in mind for when it really
45:04matters for when you're judging harshly
45:07okay so can I ask you down a similar
45:11question if I've understood your view
45:13I've read several of your books you I
45:16think what you're saying is you agree
45:17with Robert that there's this
45:20long the whole of history of life and
45:22then all of your particular life but I
45:25think you're also saying that Evolution
45:27has created within the machine that you
45:29are an ability to judge possibilities
45:33and choose between them so you think
45:35that that there's a part of the yeah
45:39yeah yes that's right that's and Robert
45:41doesn't think there is that part of the
45:43machine no no we're in complete
45:46agreement there as part of your machine
45:48you weigh the possibilities and you
45:50choose you generate options through
45:53mechanisms that may or may not be
45:55dependent on chaotic ISM nonlinearity
45:57blah blah Etc you generate options and
46:00yeah you choose but that has nothing to
46:03do with whether or not there's free will
46:05because the choice you make reflects the
46:08values tastes Etc that you had no
46:11control over and you becoming the person
46:13who you are it's back to that same thing
46:16where did that intent come from but
46:19don't you want to take
46:21responsibility for your character and
46:25your judgment and your political views
46:28and your and your moral views don't you
46:31think that don't you identify with them
46:34don't you think lucky me lucky me I'm
46:40having the Free Will that I have but I
46:45am happy to say the people can trust me
46:49they can reason with me they can change
46:53my mind I'm open to discussion this
46:57that's what free will is it's not
46:59indeterminism has nothing to do with
47:01indeterminism any more than Evolution
47:06indeterminism okay which nicely moves us
47:10into this moral realm don't I want to
47:13take responsibility for my actions my
47:16achievements all of that isn't that a
47:18good thing that's a terrible thing
47:21because we have a world in which we
47:24think it is okay to treat some people
47:27way better than average including you
47:29and me because of things we had no
47:32control over and to treat other people
47:34way worse than average and then to
47:36butter them over with crap about this is
47:39a just World in which people get what
47:41they deserve if taking responsibility
47:44for your achievements all of that leads
47:47you to decide that you're entitled
47:50you've earned to have your needs
47:52considered more than that of any other
47:56this in fact is a terrible outcome and
47:59run on that terrible outcome that we
48:05earned our rewards and
48:09punishments and if and if you got caught
48:13um plagiarizing a scientific paper or
48:17fudging data would you take
48:19responsibility for that absolutely in
48:22the mechanic good so you agree with me
48:25it's a good thing to take responsibility
48:28in the same way that I can say that
48:31right now I am responsible for the fact
48:34that not only is my arm moving but all
48:36the quarks that make up my arm I have
48:40caused to move yes yes we're getting
48:42caught up in the agents are things that
48:45cause things to happen agents do things
48:48non- agents do not do things yes yes but
48:51this is not the level we're talking
48:54about we're talking about is this a
48:56world where it is okay not
48:59only if you were born in poverty in our
49:02wonderfully just nation that you and I
49:04share that you are overwhelmingly likely
49:06to remain in poverty and adulthood if
49:09you were born to parents who are upper
49:11middle class you're far more likely to
49:13wind up in my classroom at Stanford than
49:15in the county prison all of that that's
49:18the level that we're dealing with that
49:20we okay well let's deal with it and I
49:22think here we agree we both think we
49:25should do what we can to improve those
49:29conditions we should do what we can to
49:32eliminate poverty to eliminate child
49:38malnutrition and if we do that then more
49:41and more people will be able to meet the
49:46minimal criteria for being you know
49:49responsible enough to have a driver's
49:51license you know you make a big deal in
49:55in your book about the gardener at
49:58Stanford uh who whom you see uh
50:01dutifully uh uh trimming up around the
50:04edges while while you're at some
50:06commencement ceremony but I dare say
50:08he's an honest man he's a responsible
50:14know whether whether he's thrilled to
50:17death to be able to you know perhaps
50:20bring his family from
50:23somewhere you know in South Amica
50:25America where he was in great
50:27difficulties and now he's in the United
50:30States he's got a job he's taking care
50:32of his family and he's proud to be an
50:34honest man and he's proud to deserve the
50:37salary that Stanford pays him there are
50:40lots of people like that there are
50:43that from every Walk of Life who
50:48prize their self-control and their Free
50:54Will can I can I can I just Dan you were
50:57saying you know you were saying that you
50:59both agreed that we should do something
51:01about this this these moral questions
51:03but am I right in thinking that you Dan
51:05think that you have free will to say I'm
51:09going to do something about this whereas
51:11if I've understood you Robert you're not
51:14you can't say I'm going to do something
51:16about this the circumstances of your
51:19life and prehistory will either mean
51:21that you will do something about it or
51:24you won't but there's you Robert are not
51:26going to make that choice you're merely
51:30it in effect yes but okay maybe more
51:36frame sort of the things that both Dan
51:39and I would like to accomplish Dan is an
51:42agenda God help me for saying a word
51:44this verboten these days but of a
51:47liberal which is to say it's important
51:50to remember the edge cases brain damage
51:54okay keep in mind and they're a special
51:56case that sort of thing but for
51:58everybody else we have a realm in which
52:01responsibility makes sense and I would
52:04characterize where I'm coming from as
52:06one as far far more radical what we see
52:10when somebody has brain damage is an
52:13easy task for us we can see the thing
52:19responsibility but when we look at
52:21everybody else we have the far harder
52:24task of we need to see thousands and
52:27thousands of spiderweb thick cables of
52:31the influences that started from the
52:33beginning of Life until one second ago
52:35and it's a hell of a lot harder to see
52:37that and science has made less progress
52:39with that and it's a whole lot easier to
52:42look at that complicated scenario and
52:45say this one is not an exception this is
52:48one where we can hold them responsible
52:50that's the limits of what science have
52:53told us constitute edge cases there are
52:55no edge cases there's just ones where
52:58the causality is easier to see because
53:01it was mostly from one Sledgehammer of
53:03an influence rather than a gazillion but
53:06it's the same threads that ultimately
53:13wouldn't you wouldn't continue to have
53:17tests for whether somebody is capable of
53:19driving on the highway oh of course
53:22absolutely even then you're going to be
53:25making those judgments one thing that's
53:28fine I think one thing you ought to
53:31consider how about asking
53:34them how about asking them whether they
53:36want to be held responsible or whether
53:39they want to be treated
53:41as put them put them in some kind of
53:45quarantined Lodge and remove from them
53:49the capacity to move about in society I
53:52don't I don't want to do that with
53:55if if they want to be out and about and
53:58free I'm all for it as long as as they
54:03agree to follow the the rules of society
54:06the laws and behave themselves and but
54:09but are you Robert saying well it's not
54:11a matter of whether they agree or not
54:13whether they were going to agree or not
54:16predetermined and predetermined and
54:19inculcated into them as to whatever
54:21their intuitions are about how the world
54:23should or shouldn't work and whether
54:25they deserve to be in their place or not
54:29where where we're having this
54:38absolutely we should
54:42recognize that like it's bad to have
54:44murderers running around on the streets
54:47we need to protect people from that that
54:50seems undeniable and there are ways of
54:53doing that without having to invoke a
54:56responsibility and at the same time we
54:59also want to make sure that we have
55:01competent people removing your brain
55:03tumor than someone randomly chosen off
55:05the street it is possible to create a
55:08world in which we protect people from
55:11dangerous things without invoking a
55:13medieval sense of responsibility and to
55:16have competent people doing the
55:18difficult things without it being an
55:21issue of responsibility and without it
55:25you are more worthy because you happen
55:28to have the skills that allow you to
55:29drive a car safely or to take out
55:33blastoma well then well then we we have
55:37hardly any disagreement Robert because
55:40you want to get rid of a medieval notion
55:42of responsibility so do
55:44I okay so do I C can can I um put some
55:49questions from the audience to you both
55:57asks why do many people fear that
56:00adopting a deterministic worldview will
56:03lead to immoral action and asks what
56:05kind of actual changes would occur if we
56:08do believe in a deterministic world
56:13view either one of you Robert would you
56:15like to start sure this is the thing
56:18that worries everyone we're going to run
56:20a muck and there's a small literature
56:23showing that if you experiment
56:25manipulate people into believing a
56:27little bit less in free will they're
56:29more likely to cheat at an economic game
56:3210 minutes later one thing worth noting
56:34is that those Studies have not
56:36replicated but the much more important
56:37thing is to note when you take somebody
56:41not who's been manipulated into
56:42believing lesson Free Will since they
56:44came in to get their $ five doar for
56:46volunteering for this experiment but
56:48somebody who shows up who already does
56:51not believe in Free Will what the
56:53studies show is that they are exactly as
56:56ethical in their behavior as do people
56:59who have thought long and hard and
57:01decided we should be held responsible
57:03how does that happen such opposite polls
57:06because these are not really opposite
57:07polls in both cases these are people who
57:10have thought long and hard what are the
57:13roots of human goodness why are we here
57:16what is the source of meaning all of
57:18that and if you've done that hard work
57:21much as with the high levels of ethical
57:23Behavior whether you look at someone who
57:26is highly religious or someone who is
57:29very stridently atheistic you've done
57:32the hard work in both cases you wind up
57:34getting very ethical people if we have a
57:36world in which that's a starting point
57:38the notion of people running a mock
57:42responsibility is is a complete red
57:45herring I don't know as we have it we
57:47have a world in which most people are
57:48inculcated into thinking that there's an
57:51omnipotent whoever up there who is going
57:53to hold us responsible
57:55and we haven't done a pretty impressive
57:57job of being moral amid that so I think
58:00the notion that we're being held for
58:01responsibility I think that what fuels
58:04Dan both your and my atheism uh theism
58:07does not have a particularly good track
58:09record but nonetheless no if you raise
58:13people to think that we are the outcome
58:16of all that came before this is not
58:19going to be a world in which people run
58:20a muck this is a world in which people
58:22are going to be more empathic and less
58:25for reasons that are totally different
58:27from the world we have now except for
58:29the edge cases that you site well those
58:33people will have what I consider free
58:41you you don't want to admit that uh you
58:48uh you say it isn't Free Will and
58:52responsibility just because on this
58:54social level everyone says it is that's
58:57the central point of the book that's a
59:00quote from you and I I
59:03say well that's a point that I really
59:06disagree with you on because I think
59:08everybody who says they have free will
59:10they've got it right because that's what
59:12free will really is let me try uh a
59:15simple example on you um you agree that
59:21real money is real sure okay dollars are
59:25real good um doesn't depend on the gold
59:31it well and so far as I understand next
59:33to nothing about it sure I'll I'll I
59:36mean people used to think that you
59:39couldn't have money unless you had
59:40something that was intrinsically
59:42economically valuable like gold or
59:44something no we Now understand money is
59:48a is a brilliant social
59:50construction it's real people believe in
59:53it now there are people who go around
59:55say no no no no money is an illusion
59:57there's no such thing as money
59:59really all Lis neurom modulators and
01:00:03Squishy stuff in the brain and and so
01:00:10they that's a very pick Wiki imp
01:00:12position when I when I go to sign a
01:00:16mortgage as I did recently the notary
01:00:20public asked me are you signing this of
01:00:22your own free will and I said
01:00:26yes and I meant what she meant by free
01:00:30will I'm not being coerced nobody's got
01:00:33me under remote control I'm not being
01:00:36blackmailed and I've got enough of my
01:00:39wits about me still so that I am legally
01:00:42entitled to sign this document that's
01:00:44what free will is it's the philosophers
01:00:47who have inflated that into this bizarre
01:00:51metaphysical Contraption of of
01:00:55indeterminism they're the ones that have
01:00:58foed may I say on you a a medieval
01:01:03notion of Free Will which is long since
01:01:06vanished good we're right back where we
01:01:09started which is for you intent and
01:01:13awareness there's Alternatives all of
01:01:15that is enough to satisfy your
01:01:18definition that you are acting freely
01:01:19there let's unpack that how did you
01:01:22become the sort of person who would
01:01:24value taking on the financial burden and
01:01:27responsibility of a mortgage rather than
01:01:29spending it all on liquor at the bar how
01:01:33did you become the sort of person who at
01:01:35your stage of life would decide that
01:01:38ownership of land is a good investment
01:01:40how did you become the sort of person
01:01:42who decided that you're actually going
01:01:44to do that rather than defraud this bank
01:01:47because you figured out a way to do it
01:01:49how did you become how did you
01:01:55well just lucky but nonetheless because
01:01:59of things you had no control over
01:02:02because luck you were exactly and that's
01:02:07the whole point we are nothing more or
01:02:09less than the sum of the biological luck
01:02:12that has made us and its interactions
01:02:14with the environmental luck which has
01:02:17made us that's all we are all we are is
01:02:20what came before over which we had no
01:02:22control once again the past isn't even
01:02:26past the past is who we are now and
01:02:29somehow you w up being the sort of
01:02:31person with the values abilities
01:02:34self-control Etc to take out a mortgage
01:02:37at this point um can I interrupt for a
01:02:39second um um it may be that we can ask
01:02:43people to have another poll and see if
01:02:45anyone's changed their mind see if if
01:02:47the circumstances of their lives mean
01:02:49they were going to while they're
01:02:50thinking about that and what thinking
01:02:53it's just a final question if you don't
01:02:54mind it seems to me if Dan you would
01:02:58consider that it would be possible for
01:03:00you to choose the change your mind
01:03:02having listened to Robert but Robert
01:03:05would you be able to change your mind
01:03:07given that the circumstances of your
01:03:09life are the same you it seems to me
01:03:12that you're not going to be able to
01:03:14change your mind am I right or have I
01:03:17misunderstood yes I could not choose to
01:03:19change my mind right now nonetheless my
01:03:23mind could be changed because I've
01:03:25become the sort of person who could be
01:03:27convinced by a solid argument I've
01:03:29become the sort of person where I am not
01:03:32thrown into a panicked you know secure
01:03:36state of admitting that I'm wrong I'm
01:03:38not the sort of person where out of
01:03:40perversity I want to do the exact
01:03:42opposite of what so there there is an
01:03:44imbalance here in other words Dan can
01:03:48choose to change his mind himself you
01:03:51Robert have to rely on Dan to choose
01:03:54your mind I do not think Dan
01:03:57could to to change your mind because he
01:04:00became the sort of person who watching a
01:04:02movie cares about
01:04:04cinematography person who watching a
01:04:06movie cares about inspirational
01:04:09emotional because of who we are at this
01:04:11moment we react to our
01:04:14circumstances in ways which will change
01:04:17us and change Us in different ways we
01:04:19don't choose to change we are changed by
01:04:21circumstance and by the sort of person
01:04:24circumstances prior to this turned us
01:04:29absolutely sry go ahead Don I I want to
01:04:33return to Tom Wolf he says we're wired
01:04:35I'm wired wrong and ask what it would be
01:04:38to be wired right I think most of us are
01:04:41wired right not perfectly but good
01:04:44enough and the ones that are wired wrong
01:04:47indeed they're not responsible but we
01:04:50get we we deal with the edge cases
01:04:52that's a delicate and difficult matter
01:04:55and and where the edges are may change
01:04:59over time but we've still got
01:05:03a normal population of adult civilized
01:05:08human beings who can be held responsible
01:05:12who want to be held responsible and who
01:05:16therefore have in the sense that matters
01:05:19Free Will and one could respond to the
01:05:23want to be held responsible with all
01:05:26sorts of sound bites along the lines of
01:05:29chains we're not trying to explain the
01:05:32brains that are wrong we're trying to
01:05:35explain all the brains and this applies
01:05:37just as much the brains that are wrong
01:05:39are the easier ones for us to figure out
01:05:42because yeah this person fetal alcohol
01:05:44syndrome or abused as a child yeah those
01:05:47are the easy ones and that's the
01:05:49Liberals Edge case version of yeah yeah
01:05:51yeah let's remember those are the
01:05:53exceptions they are aren't exceptions
01:05:55that's just a different domain of us
01:05:56trying to figure out how we became who
01:05:59we are and out of circumstances we had
01:06:02no control over um well what I can tell
01:06:05you is that the circumstance which the
01:06:08viewers listeners had no control over
01:06:10listening to a pair of you uh is that
01:06:1449% still believe in Free Will um and
01:06:1861% have decided that it's all been
01:06:21determined for them by listening to the
01:06:24wait wait watch it there fella 49 and 61
01:06:27don't add up oh sorry yes
01:06:30sorry you're right but it I was told
01:06:33that there's been a 10% swing towards
01:06:36determinism sorry if I got the numbers
01:06:38wrong um so I'm not sure yeah sorry 39%
01:06:42and 50 and 61% so I'm not sure if that's
01:06:45because they all thought this for
01:06:47themselves or that um you know
01:06:48circumstances changed but that's how it
01:06:50has happened um I'm sorry we there's a
01:06:54there's a million other questions come
01:06:55in um and we don't have time um but Dan
01:07:01Robert thank you so much for coming to
01:07:03talk to us I'm not sure that anyone will
01:07:05have changed their mind or or understand
01:07:09why they changed their mind if they did
01:07:12but um it was great listening to the
01:07:14pair of you thank you very much indeed
01:07:16it's been great very good talking with
01:07:18you Robert likewise this was totally fun
01:07:22so thank you for this happening
