Become an Effective Software Engineering Manager • James Stanier & Gergely Orosz
GOTO Conferences2024-03-29
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💫 Short Summary
The video features an interview with James Stania, Director of Engineering at Shopify, discussing his book on effective software engineering management. The book offers practical advice, storytelling elements, and tools for handling organizational dysfunction. Stania shares insights on transitioning into a management role, emphasizing the importance of experience and leadership qualities. The discussion covers management strategies, the need for a safety net, and coping with stress in the technology industry. The video also touches on delegation, contracting in management, and the value of stoic thoughts for effective leadership. Stania's upcoming books on remote work and middle management are highlighted.
✨ Highlights
📊 Transcript
✦
Summary of 'Become an Effective Software Engineering Manager' Interview
02:11The book provides practical advice for software engineering managers, including handling team performance and juggling responsibilities.
Chapters in the book start with relatable scenarios to help managers learn from real-life situations.
The author, James Stania, Director of Engineering at Shopify, emphasizes the storytelling approach of the book.
Effective management strategies are crucial in the software development industry, as highlighted in the interview.
✦
The book was written to analyze common patterns in organizational dysfunction and provide practical tools for managers.
05:29The speaker uses the analogy of poking jelly in a pyramid to illustrate how crises at different organizational levels can affect stability.
The book was created during the speaker's management journey, incorporating lessons learned over time.
The main aim was to develop memorable analogies for effectively addressing organizational challenges in different scenarios.
✦
The speaker's journey to becoming a manager and author.
08:36The speaker initially read management books that were not practical for their role.
Transitioned into a management position at a startup, sparking their interest in management as a craft.
Started writing blog posts on management, leading to the opportunity to write a book.
Turning blog posts into a coherent narrative for the book was challenging and time-consuming.
✦
The three main parts of the book are introduction, working with individuals, and the bigger picture.
11:28The speaker, an experienced engineering manager, emphasizes the importance of writing to understand concepts.
The book covers career tracks and progression, offering insights for senior managers and those in new roles.
It is a unique resource for career development.
The speaker shares personal growth within Brandwatch, noting the company's evolution from a small to a larger organization.
✦
Speaker's journey from small company to large company and privilege of writing a book.
14:37Positive reception of book and deeper connection with readers than social media.
Value of committing ideas to paper and satisfaction of meaningful sales.
Importance of gaining management experience through practice and mentorship.
Prescriptive nature of book on management basics.
✦
The importance of understanding management responsibilities and the hero's journey concept in leadership.
19:10Lack of formal education in management among individuals transitioning from technical roles is highlighted.
The book focuses on ideas rather than the author's persona, offering abstract discussions on leadership, strategy, and culture.
The book provides a refreshing antidote to typical blog posts by encouraging exploration and deeper understanding of management in the technology industry.
✦
Highlights from "The Manager's Toolkit: Tools for Success in Different Organizations".
20:36The book emphasizes individuality and adaptability in management, providing a toolkit approach for readers.
It stands out by focusing on empathy and real-life scenarios that managers may encounter.
Each chapter offers insight into the manager's perspective, prompting readers to consider pursuing a managerial role.
The consistent structure and storytelling elements enhance the reader's experience.
✦
Transitioning into a management role.
24:20Emphasizes gaining experience and demonstrating leadership qualities.
Join a growing company for increased advancement opportunities.
Try out a management role for a fixed period as a safety net.
Ability to switch between roles for flexibility in career development.
✦
Importance of Safety Net for Employees Transitioning into Management Roles at Uber.
28:12Uber's apprentice manager program offers dedicated training and support for first-time managers, allowing them to succeed or return to previous roles without stigma.
Beneficial approach for larger organizations to help individuals navigate the transition effectively.
Discussion on the changing landscape of management roles post-pandemic, focusing on the demand for managers and evolving skill sets.
✦
Challenges in Tech Industry Due to Economic Woes.
29:29Layoffs in large tech companies have led to stagnant growth and challenges for organizations.
Managers are crucial for managing teams, but the lack of growth results in fewer managerial positions.
Market conditions have shifted from a long bull market to layoffs and budget cuts, causing stress for managers.
Higher managerial positions are more vulnerable during times of consolidation, leading to increased stress and uncertainty.
✦
Strategies for managing stress and uncertainty in the technology industry.
34:24Focus on high-value work to prioritize tasks effectively.
Be open to returning to individual contributor roles for personal growth and development.
Set internal goals for team success to boost morale and productivity.
Understand what can and can't be controlled, maintain flexibility, and build a financial safety net for stability.
✦
Importance of Delegation in Management
37:17Managers must hold themselves accountable for tasks delegated to staff.
Delegation should be based on the skill and experience level of the individual.
The delegation spectrum shows the balance between delegation and control.
It is recommended to have emergency savings for tough times and avoid overspending during financial stability.
✦
Importance of 'Contracting' in management.
38:30'Contracting' involves understanding needs and expectations at the beginning of a relationship.
Preparing answers to potential issues and building scaffolding around the relationship for success is key.
Efficiently working together is crucial for successful management.
Focusing on what can be controlled as a manager amidst various uncontrollable factors is emphasized.
✦
Importance of transparency and control in managerial leadership.
43:25Transparency with the team regarding what can and cannot be controlled helps avoid unnecessary worry and stress.
Remaining calm in high-pressure situations and making decisive decisions is crucial for effective leadership.
Stoic thoughts and literature can guide managerial behavior towards a composed and effective approach.
Proactive managerial styles are emphasized over reactive styles in handling challenging circumstances.
✦
Speaker discusses current and upcoming books focused on remote work and middle management.
44:52Emphasizes the practicality and relevance of the books for readers.
Values hands-on guidance and storytelling in providing manager training.
Acknowledges recent book release and encourages listeners to explore more content on podcast platform.
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00:48[Music]
00:58copia.jpg a year uh sitting in the hotel
01:02that then a day later the fish tank
01:04exploded yeah that that was something
01:07last time we saw that that fish tank for
01:09those that that don't know in Elite
01:11Berlin we were in that hotel where the
01:13world's largest fish tank is
01:15unfortunately no more so with that that
01:18I guess is a good unexpected segue let's
01:21do a little bit of introduction for for
01:22those that you don't know maybe you can
01:24start with that James and then I'll
01:25carry on yeah that sounds good so my
01:28name is James stania um currently um
01:31director of engineering at Shopify and I
01:33wrote a book which is I think what we'll
01:34be talking about today called become an
01:36effective software engineering manager
01:38and um yep there we go that's the one
01:40it's one with the flock of birds on the
01:41front um and yeah really nice to be here
01:43have a chat yeah and I'm I'm
01:47interviewing James I'm G otos I write
01:50the pragmatic engineer uh before that I
01:52was a software engineer and then an
01:54engineering manager and I've also just
01:56recently published my first longer
01:59paperback book called the software
02:00engineer's guide book so I guess we have
02:02author to author here but today we're
02:04going to be talking about become an
02:07effective software engineer manager this
02:08is actually a book that I had the
02:11privilege to read a little bit before uh
02:14it was out and uh I'm uh I I believe yep
02:18I'm I'm on on the back of this with my
02:21recommendations this a book that I I
02:22really liked um from from the start and
02:27I I'll just kick on with why I like the
02:29books so a very kind of typical part of
02:33the book is any chapter that you open
02:35what what I like is it starts with a
02:36story and for example there's a chapter
02:41there's a humans is heart chapter which
02:43is I'm just checking a chapter 10 it's
02:46called humans is hard and when I open
02:48that chapter it starts with the story of
02:51you're a manager or maybe even a
02:53director whatever and your your manager
02:57so your boss is really upset with you
02:59because your team has has not been
03:00delivering for six month and they're
03:01telling you you're not working hard
03:03enough and there's a story you're kind
03:04of like almost feeling yourself in in
03:06the shoes um I've luckily not been in
03:09the situation but I've seen other
03:10managers be in the situation and then
03:12the book goes into like all right how do
03:14we get here and how do we fix it and for
03:17example in this chapter goes into
03:18explain that as a manager you're under
03:20way more scrutiny both from you know
03:22your your uh your the people that you
03:25work with and and your management H it
03:27goes into the upper you go the more
03:29wobbly things are you just need to you
03:31know balance all these things and and
03:34and then as a manager for example your
03:35team is behind schedule now what do you
03:37do do you use the whip you know tell
03:39people are going to work more or or do
03:41you use motivation and the book is just
03:43like I feel you know this chapter was
03:45really is one of those things where even
03:47though I've not been in that situation
03:49that specific one uh as a former manager
03:51I really well at the time as a manager I
03:53just really emphasize with it and every
03:56single chapter I really like how it
03:57pulls you into this really like realate
03:59situation so I wanted to ask start start
04:01to ask you uh about that like were these
04:05real situations or were there ones that
04:08happen to you or or ones that you
04:09observe because they feel super real
04:12life yeah and I think they all did
04:15happen obviously not exactly as they're
04:17written but the thing that I noticed in
04:20sort of my early years as a manager is
04:22that there are just these patterns that
04:24you noticed it's the same as writing
04:25software there's software patterns
04:27there's also patterns of organization
04:30function or even or even dysfunction
04:32that you find yourself in time and time
04:34again and I think the way that the book
04:37was constructed was to try and make
04:39sense of those patterns that I'd seen
04:41and experienced and talk to other people
04:42and and who's also seen and experienced
04:44them and then try to extract Frameworks
04:47or tools out of those situations that
04:49are then generally applicable to people
04:51going forward because I think the whole
04:53way the book was put together was here's
04:56a whole bunch of stuff that I've
04:57experienced here's how I think if I knew
04:59this beforehand would handle it better
05:00and then the book was a process of kind
05:02of committing that to to paper as I went
05:03through and what what are some like
05:05Frameworks and tools that that you
05:07mentioned like what ones that maybe are
05:10a bit more memorable for you yeah so you
05:12mentioned a few there so the one was the
05:13kind of the wobble analogy and you know
05:16if you think of an or chart and the kind
05:17of the pyramid shape and then you think
05:19of like a a jelly for our European folks
05:22or a Jello for our American
05:24folks kind of superimposed over the org
05:27chart you know that if you sort of poke
05:29the jelly at the bottom it doesn't
05:30really wobble very much because it's at
05:32the bottom so like little crises can be
05:34contained in teams quite well without
05:36needing too much um effort but the
05:39higher the org chart goes and the higher
05:41up the top you are just one tiny little
05:43prod can send the entire organization
05:45going crazy so for example if a CEO gets
05:48involved in something and then suddenly
05:50there's a burning issue the whole or
05:52chart just goes all over the place and
05:53it all wobbles and it's all a mess so I
05:55think what I've tried to do is just kind
05:57of extract all these little mess fors
05:59analogies that I think are quite easily
06:00memorable so that you can think ah okay
06:02this applies to this situation going
06:04forward yeah and so how did you get
06:07about uh writing this book uh you
06:09mentioned you're a director of engering
06:11right now at at Shopify but uh I I guess
06:15related to this is both how you wrote
06:16the book but how did you become a
06:18manager and you know pick up these
06:21interesting lessons that are now in in
06:23the book in a more condensible format
06:26yeah so I was um it was pre- Shopify
06:28that I wrote this book so I've finish
06:29off for a few years and I think I I
06:31finished this three years ago now so
06:33this was very much written during the
06:35Journey of you know getting into
06:37management myself so before the book
06:39like four four years before the book as
06:42I first became a manager and I'll talk a
06:43little bit about that in a second I just
06:46was trying to synthesize what I was
06:48learning I think back then which was
06:49probably 10 years ago now there just
06:52wasn't the same amount of books or blogs
06:53or newsletters out there that were
06:55really there as a as an example of how
06:57to be a good manager so really I was
07:00reading around as much as I could but a
07:02lot of the information was either very
07:03autobiographical it's kind of like
07:05here's a book on Steve Jobs and like I'm
07:07I'm not Steve Jobs or here's a book on
07:09You Know Jack Welch or whatever it's
07:10like I'm not running General Electric or
07:13they were very sort of Pie in the Sky
07:14very abstract I think that book was the
07:18either the Jack Jack Welsh one and
07:19there's the other one that's very much
07:21recommended the one I I forget the name
07:24I think it's it's not on G but there's
07:27also one really bit it's a managerial
07:29book
07:30it has to come it'll come to me later
07:32but but yes but they're they're very old
07:33books and they're non-tech companies
07:35they're kind of more traditional
07:37management books absolutely and I think
07:39the only one that really connected me in
07:41the the early period which um you when I
07:44was trying to learn the ropes and I'll
07:46tell you rewind about so I was in this
07:48startup called brandwatch which you know
07:49we successfully exited 10 years later it
07:51took a long time but I was there just
07:53after the seed round and I I joined just
07:55at the period where everyone reported to
07:58the CTO because they're there wasn't
07:59enough engineers and then when we had
08:01the seed funding and then some series a
08:03funding it was okay we need to grow the
08:05engineering department and I always
08:07remember when I I joined I ended up
08:09reporting to the guy who was effectively
08:11a principal engineer and I remember our
08:12first ever time that we sat together was
08:15him telling me I don't understand why
08:17I'm a manager um I was sort of just told
08:20I'm I'm the most experienced person here
08:21so I need to manage everybody so I think
08:24the company was working itself out as it
08:26was growing and I think I was just very
08:28interested in okay this feels like this
08:30isn't how it should be and then I wanted
08:33to do a good job of management and then
08:34I did a lot of reading and then I sort
08:36of placed myself as we grew to say hey
08:38I'm really really interested in
08:40management as a craft and I think
08:42leading on from that you know how do we
08:44Define career tracks the jeel ladders of
08:46management and individual contributors
08:48all of these things started to sort of
08:49come out and back to your question about
08:52where the book came from well I started
08:54writing a blog post once a week which
08:56was effectively just on my on my website
08:59trying
09:59everything that I'd written and started
10:00to sort of categorize it all together
10:02and sort of okay there's a sketch of
10:04what could be a book here and uh I wrote
10:07to a few Publishers um so I wrote to
10:09Manning wrote to pragmatic uh
10:12programmers and I got on very well with
10:14a prag prog folks and they offered me
10:17the chance and went from there yeah how
10:20how long did it take to to write the
10:21book so you already had a lot of ideas
10:23in the blog post right yeah so I'd say
10:26that the material was was there
10:29so if you put all the blog if you
10:31imagine printing out all the blog posts
10:33side by side you probably had about half
10:35a book but the thing that really took
10:37the time was making it all flow as one
10:39coherent narrative and I think as a
10:41fellow author you will you will
10:42sympathize with that people just oh you
10:45Stitch I I think this is thing that it's
10:48it's it's hard to maybe emphasize with
10:51or or see until you write it because the
10:53book does flow well I I like that you
10:55know there's there's uh the book has do
10:58you have parts or three part three main
11:02three three main parts there's basically
11:04a bit more of an introduction of a like
11:06a general stuff orientation there's
11:10working with individuals which which is
11:12more of the line manager part and then
11:14the bigger picture which is feels a bit
11:16more like managers of managers and above
11:18so like senior em and you know but you
11:22were at Brand watch and in the end were
11:24you a VP of engineering or Senor VP of
11:26engineering yeah I was VP of engineering
11:28um for the last five years years of my
11:30my time there yeah which I I mean I
11:32think this is a really nice splot
11:33because uh like as what I found when I
11:36was reading the book I was reading the
11:37book when I was already an experienced
11:39engineering manager and I was starting
11:41to get my my first managers uh uh under
11:44in fact I might have already had a
11:45manager under me and so for example for
11:47me you know the first parts were maybe a
11:49bit less relevant because i' I've
11:51already kind of gone through the the
11:53one-on-one Performance Management all
11:54that it was nice to see additional
11:56approaches but the the big picture was
11:58was really for me which is and and this
12:01is what this one of the things I've
12:03heard from friends who I recommended to
12:05uh the engine managers who are brand new
12:07to this just really like you know the
12:09the beginning and it's kind of nice but
12:11but for them the second part was not as
12:12relevant so I think it's it's a pretty
12:15it's a good balance because it does
12:16cover a lot of it in a similar uh way
12:21did did you did you find uh writing some
12:24parts easier or harder because I guess
12:26by the time you were writing this you
12:27were more on the
12:30La more experience side and further away
12:32from the line management
12:33side yeah I think I I wouldn't say there
12:36are any individual chapters that were
12:38difficult but I think that as you've
12:40probably also experienced now like it
12:42takes writing something down to really
12:45understand whether you know something or
12:46not and you can sometimes feel that you
12:49really know something and then you try
12:51to write it and then you realize you
12:52don't know anything about it at all and
12:55I think that's that's the one thing that
12:56I've taken away from writing books is
12:58that it's the way that you understand
13:00what you know and what you don't know
13:02and certainly those laugh chapters um I
13:04remember when I was writing the one
13:05about the Dual career tracks you know
13:07that was all about the time where I
13:09think I just about put brand watch's
13:12career tracks on progression. FYI the
13:14career track site so I think I was
13:16pretty much writing those kind of like
13:17hand in hand and it was kind of like
13:19trying to do the chapter that got me by
13:21the way I think this is the only book so
13:23far um I might be wrong I'm missing some
13:25but I hav't seen another book that talks
13:27about career tracks of putting them into
13:29place I I get this a lot lot of
13:31questions from people especially uh
13:33senior managers or or people who are are
13:35starting as a cc role at like a smaller
13:38company who want to do this thing and
13:40obviously there's a lot of online
13:41resources but so far this has been the
13:43only book so it's it's interesting
13:45because I feel it does go through a lot
13:46of tracks it probably helped that you
13:48grew with uh brand much right like by by
13:51the end as context can you give like how
13:53small the company was when you joined it
13:55and by the time you were kind of
13:57finishing this book how big it was
13:59yeah so when I joined I think the
14:01company in total was about 20 people and
14:04that includes everybody from CEO
14:06Engineers commercial and at the time
14:09that we
14:11exited it was it was about a thousand
14:14people yeah wow yeah so you went through
14:17that growth yeah and I think to answer
14:19your question as to why I was able to
14:21write about it I think it's essentially
14:24because I had the privilege to do that
14:25work and I think that's the one thing
14:28that you know certainly
14:30now at a larger company Shopify I have
14:32influence into these things but I'm not
14:34effectively the decider on what our
14:35career tracks are you know that that is
14:37above me now yeah so when I wrote this
14:39book I was fortunate to be able to do it
14:42well who knows so the person deciding
14:43might be reading this book so you
14:45never and and so this book launched
14:48three years ago or almost three and a
14:49half years ago in May 2020 what was the
14:52reception so far because now you you
14:54probably got a lot of feedback yeah
14:57overwhelmingly positive actually I think
15:00it's very nice that every in-person
15:02conference that I go to typically I end
15:04up meeting someone who says hey I read
15:05your book and it was really helpful and
15:08that's that's the bizarre thing and I
15:10again I think this is something that you
15:12you know with your newsletter is that
15:14being able to commit things to paper is
15:16just such a bizarre thing because it
15:18introduces you mentally to other people
15:21and you you meet someone who's read 350
15:23pages of what you've written probably
15:25understands your ideas better than you
15:26do now because you've kind of forgotten
15:28them a bit since you wrote them yeah but
15:30it connects you with people and you know
15:32the sales have been brilliant sort of
15:34like really nice meaningful five fig
15:36sales and it's just it's been a really
15:40lovely experience because it's felt that
15:42I've connected myself to the world in in
15:43ways that I don't put myself out there
15:46typically so I've I've never really
15:48enjoyed playing the social media
15:50influencer game but I can write and I
15:54think this is really nice because it
15:55connected me to people in a way that I
15:57feel is more genuinely Interlink with
15:59with my
15:59passion amazing I I mean you know one
16:02thing about management books in in
16:04general is you know like I guess one of
16:08the best ways you've seen this I I've
16:10seen this the the best ways to get
16:11better at managing is to just do it and
16:15you're going to make a bunch of mistakes
16:16and you're going to learn and if you're
16:17lucky and hopefully you are you either
16:19seek out mentors or you have mentors but
16:22you know like it's it it's hard to
16:23generalize some of these things but you
16:26still did generalize things here and I
16:29just want want to ask you like how
16:31prescriptive of this book is this book
16:35and also how do you feel this book is
16:37different to the books that you
16:39previously uh picked up on management as
16:41as you were becoming manager because
16:42clearly you were trying to do something
16:44that didn't exist and and clearly
16:46there's a demand for it so far so how is
16:48this book different and how prescriptive
16:50is it good question so I think there's a
16:53few things in there so I
16:55think prescriptiveness there's a little
16:57bit at the beginning obviously the
17:00management 101 here's how to run a
17:03decent one to1 here's how to do a
17:04performance review the very Basics the
17:07sort of the the bottom of the
17:08scaffolding of the book is fairly
17:10prescriptive but it's written in such a
17:11way to say this is one way of doing it
17:14yeah but by the way I I did like so like
17:16you mentioned there there's one-on ones
17:18there's uh there's hiring people uh
17:21there's figuring out how to kind of put
17:24people in in your team figure around
17:26with the right motivations for the
17:27people uh and then what I really liked
17:29is there's how to F like how to deal
17:31with people leaving um and and uh also
17:35just firing people I mean I think this
17:37is something that I mean no manager
17:41signs up to do this but sometimes you
17:42have to so like those parts I kind of
17:44appreciated that it was a bit
17:46prescriptive obviously as you said it
17:47didn't say this is the only way to go
17:49but it's a bit reassuring for example
17:51you you write that people leaving is
17:53normal like and and because like
17:57whenever this happens especially it's
17:58the first time manager I think you just
18:00take it personally even if you're just
18:02like you become a manager and like
18:03someone stands up and says like I'm
18:05sorry I'm leaving so like those parts of
18:08being I guess maybe prescriptive is not
18:10the right way but opinionated I thought
18:12was very helpful of like okay this
18:16person or James is thinking that this is
18:17it's okay that people are leaving I
18:19guess okay that's good because I was a
18:21bit worried that it's not yeah and I
18:23think it's because you know and going
18:25back to the motivations for the book in
18:26the first place is that typically and I
18:29think the strange thing with Management
18:30in technology is that everyone enters
18:32into the technology industry T typically
18:35because they are either passionate about
18:36programming they've done some education
18:38around computer science or programming
18:41and that's their expertise and then they
18:42come in and then they demonstrate that
18:44they're excellent at that thing and then
18:45they get to that career juncture in in
18:47the career tracks where they go I want
18:48to do management and pretty much
18:50everybody has not done a course in
18:51management they've not done any formal
18:53education and I wanted to try and almost
18:57as a curriculum lay out his all of the
19:00pieces of the pie that you are going to
19:01be expected to do and going back to your
19:04question about prescriptiveness the way
19:07that it's written is that I've kept
19:08myself out of it it's very much a book
19:10about the hero's journey which is you as
19:12the reader and that isn't necessarily
19:15something that I made up that's actually
19:16why I really like the publisher because
19:18um pragmatic they want you to write the
19:20books like that it's it's part of the
19:21editorial um theme and process so what I
19:26like about the book is I'm not present
19:27at all obviously I wrote the word
19:29but it's not about me I don't care about
19:32me you know I don't want you to care
19:33about me I want you to care about the
19:35ideas that that's that's me and I think
19:39as the book goes on and it gets you know
19:41slightly more abstract we talk about
19:42things like leadership and strategy and
19:44how we piece together good culture this
19:47is where there are no prescriptions and
19:49I think that something that again I
19:52really like about books because they
19:54give you the the length and the space to
19:55explore is that it acts as a really nice
19:58an anecdote to so antidote rather to a
20:02lot of the blog posts that you see get
20:04lots of traction these days which are
20:05very much here seven things that you
20:07need to do to be an amazing manager
20:09here's the three things that you
20:10shouldn't do and it's just as you say
20:12you have to do it you have to learn you
20:14have to apply your own patent
20:17recognition to situations and and try to
20:19work out what to do so telling people
20:21exactly how to do a good job at a
20:23manager is impossible every person's
20:25different every organization is
20:26different and that's what I quite like
20:28about the book is it it recognizes that
20:30and it's like here's a bunch of tools
20:32it's almost like a tool kit that I give
20:33to you use the tools as you see fit and
20:36here's here's some guidance yeah and
20:38like it's interesting because I I've yet
20:40to come across a book like I was
20:42wondering why I why I really like
20:44because I I really like this book and I
20:47think there's two types of books on
20:49management there's some again really
20:50good books that are kind of like all
20:52right here's how you do things it's
20:54opinionated uh it it kind of lays out
20:57different approaches and it's more of a
20:59reference book um and this one like I
21:03think the difference is like as soon as
21:06I picked every Charter as you said it
21:08it's not about you as James in fact you
21:11I never thought of James but I I'll just
21:12like read like three sentences from the
21:14book of how chapter first which is
21:16chapter 2 manage yourself first and it
21:18starts and it just places like you as a
21:20reader and says today started so well
21:23you felt like you ended on a first week
21:25high you met your team and you manager
21:27and you made notes uh that you're going
21:29to follow this week you saw good in the
21:31world and the world saw good in you and
21:33then it happened a production issue that
21:35started in your team brought the whole
21:37side down and I'm like you know like
21:40suddenly I I just feel like two things
21:43either like I've actually been in a
21:44situation like I come in it's a great
21:47day and then it just blows up it's it's
21:49an outage production issue and I'm the
21:51manager of the team so now it's my
21:53problem and my responsibility and of
21:55course the book goes on uh with this but
21:58there's also sit situations that never
21:59happened with me and I'm reading it for
22:01example the one that that I talked about
22:03where your your manager let's say the VP
22:05engineering walks up to you and saying
22:07like what is your team doing we are
22:08behind schedule we need to get this out
22:10are you guys lazy or what like you've
22:13been on this for four months this is not
22:14acceptable it should have been done in a
22:15week like I talked with someone else and
22:17so I I like how it like I feel it just
22:22by even if if someone just reads the
22:24introduction of of these the these um
22:27the the book of these like I think 20s
22:29something chapters you just get an
22:31empathy of what it's like to be a
22:33manager even if you're not a manager by
22:35the way I think this is a great way to
22:36think like do you want to be a manager
22:38because these are situations you're
22:39eventually going to find yourself into
22:41but but more importantly I like every
22:44introduction of of these chapters just
22:46made me pause a little bit and think
22:47about it because it is a real situation
22:49and it feels that it's about me as as a
22:51reader so I think that was a really
22:53smart choice and and you said this was
22:55not your choice you said this was help
22:57from the publisher or how did you come
22:59up with with this because this is a very
23:01consistent structure and I think this is
23:02one of the I guess trademarks of your
23:03book if I might say so yeah I mean the
23:06the story at the beginning of the
23:07chapter thing was was my idea for sure
23:10the the hero's journey as how it's
23:13generally written is definitely the
23:14publisher but yeah I did I did have to
23:15pitch them this idea of like some
23:17stories and I I can understand why
23:19initially the the publisher was are you
23:21sure because I mean Engineers probably
23:23aren't the the best fiction writers in
23:25the world but I think I S of managed to
23:27pull it pull it off and I feel it's not
23:29fiction I feel it's a bit like Silicon
23:30Valley when you watch the series it's
23:32actually just real world like if if
23:33you've been there you know you're like
23:35yeah this actually happened yeah there
23:37there's a bunch of jokes there's little
23:38Easter eggs in it there's little Easter
23:40eggs throughout the books like the the
23:41illustrations you know got my dog in
23:43there few times if you notice um some of
23:46the names of the people in the diagrams
23:47of people in my family and so on so
23:49there's lots of little little nice
23:50touches I tried to put throughout it
23:52nice so one of one of the things I think
23:56this book is wonderful for is people who
23:57are just into management or just getting
23:59into management but can we talk a little
24:02bit about that I mean you're you're an
24:04experienced manager you actually helped
24:05a lot of people get into management uh
24:08if someone is is listening now and
24:10they're thinking H I actually want to
24:12become a manager one day you know like
24:15maybe in a few months or or a few years
24:18How would how do you make it happen
24:20based on your experience yeah it's a
24:23good question so we've already mentioned
24:25that if you happen to join a startup in
24:28the earlier days then if you haven't had
24:30experience with it before you have this
24:32wonderful environment around you where
24:33lots and lots of people are coming in
24:35and these positions will get created and
24:37you do have a chance and certainly I
24:39guess we we'll touch on the current um
24:41mood and economy at the moment where
24:43there are limited um positions in our
24:45industry where trusting sort of an
24:47outsider to come in as a manager with no
24:48prior experience rarely ever happens so
24:51certainly if you're looking for it try
24:52and get into a company that is growing
24:54or will grow um because those those
24:56slots will open up and if you you've
24:58already demonstrated that you're good at
24:59your job and you you've demonstrated
25:01leadership and the ability to get things
25:03done and you're reliable and trustworthy
25:05and you have great Rapport and all that
25:06kind of thing then you can step into
25:08those roles as they they occur I think
25:10the one thing that is important though
25:12which is something that we did at
25:13brandwatch and and also we we do it at
25:15Shopify too which is that if someone is
25:18definitely high growth and really is
25:20intentionally wanting to get into
25:21management you can basically come up
25:24with a safety net to say hey like why
25:26don't we do this for some fixed period
25:29of time maybe six months maybe a year
25:31because I think some people do get
25:33worried that say you're a senior
25:34engineer and you know that you're you're
25:37pretty much on the route to being
25:38promoted and you get to choose you're
25:40worried about that choice being a oneway
25:41gate where if for example you go into a
25:44management role and either you really
25:46dislike it or maybe you're not as good
25:47at it good at it as you think you would
25:49be you get worried that you're going to
25:51lose your job and what you have to do is
25:53if if you're in the position to create
25:55an environment where that doesn't have
25:57to be the case but hey try this out if
25:59it works then fantastic if not then we
26:02can always hire externally or give give
26:04the role to somebody else because I
26:05think you can switch back and forth on
26:07the tracks and it's not seem like you're
26:09you're talking this from perspective the
26:11the decision maker the manager who is
26:12creating this position but would you
26:15recommend as as someone who is you know
26:18being offered like okay you know I'm a
26:19senior engineer and my manager said like
26:21like hey Bob uh I think you're ready to
26:25to go go into
26:26management would you recommend if they
26:29don't offer this upfront that we're
26:30going to create a safety net would you
26:31would you recommend negotiating uh
26:34something like this saying like look I'm
26:36I'm I'm open to this but can we try to
26:38figure out a safety net what what
26:40happens if it turns out either I'm not
26:42as good or or this just really doesn't
26:44resonate with me definitely speak about
26:47it I mean it's it's for the good of the
26:49organization after all for that to be
26:51the case because if it doesn't work out
26:54and you get the chance to go back to
26:55being a fantastic individual contributor
26:57then the organization WIS either way
26:59yeah that's I I I wish I think more more
27:02and more places are seeing it like this
27:03so I've definitely uh seen these things
27:08you know I used to work at Uber and Uber
27:10at some point did not have the best
27:12reputation in terms of uh the the
27:16perception of of the company or how
27:17things were but I I will say this Uber
27:20has always had a safe path back from
27:23being uh a manager so they in fact Uber
27:27actually like contr to popular belief
27:29they're one of the first companies that
27:31I've seen together to maybe Facebook who
27:34have an apprentice Management program so
27:36that means that when someone becomes an
27:37engine manager they get dedicated
27:40training they they they they have a
27:41cohort of first-time managers and then
27:43they have a support group which I just
27:45very rarely see which uh again the irony
27:48is strong on this one because this
27:50actually happened not as a result of of
27:53the negative press this was there even
27:55beforehand so I guess it's just like you
27:57know if Uber did this uh then there's it
28:01is harder to do for smaller
28:02organizations but at a larger
28:04organization it is very useful to do and
28:06and what I have found work well is
28:10having this Apprentice manager title
28:12which is a safety net itself it seem it
28:14it means you're you're not yet a manager
28:16you're in this like transitionary title
28:17and in the end you either graduate or
28:19you will go back to where you were and
28:21again it it might feel a little
28:22degrading I I was an apprentice manager
28:24at Uber and at first I was like oh why
28:26am I not a real manager but then I
28:28realized later that this was a safety
28:29net because there were some people who
28:30went back from Apprentice manager to
28:32software engineer and it was not a
28:33stigma so I I think you know like
28:35playing with those titles could be
28:36interesting as well yeah that's
28:38fantastic I didn't know about that
28:39that's a really good idea and and let's
28:41talk about management right now in in
28:4320123 or almost like coming up
28:462024 um how are you seeing the the
28:49worlds changing you're obviously working
28:50at an organization but U even more so
28:53you're you're talking with a lot of uh
28:55other other managers with peers in the
28:57industry are are we seeing more demand
28:59for managers less demand for managers
29:02are the skill sets changing and and
29:04maybe let's let's let's focus initially
29:05on on just line managers and then we can
29:07expand into managers and managers yeah
29:10sure I mean I think you know we it's
29:13clear that since the pandemic ended
29:15we've had economic wo across the board
29:17in many different ways and we've seen
29:20many large companies uh tech companies
29:23firing many people in layoffs it's it's
29:25been pretty tragic and that means that
29:28now we have organizations that are not
29:29growing and the one thing that is tricky
29:32about management is that you need people
29:33to manage and that's just how it is so
29:36if these organizations are not growing
29:38then there's only the amount of managers
29:40that the or can produce and I think also
29:42we've seen during these rounds of
29:44layoffs that have happened in many
29:45different places that we're trying to
29:46also make sure that managers have enough
29:49people and and this has been quite
29:51challenging because during a heavy
29:52growth period you're putting managers in
29:54place and you're slowly building up
29:55teams around them and then that all
29:57stops and then you end up managers with
29:59have two direct reports three direct
30:01reports and I think there's been a
30:03consolidation of trying to make sure
30:05that look we all need managers they're
30:07essential but we want to make sure that
30:09they have sizable teams that can get
30:12things done clear purposes and so on so
30:15skill sets I think also is an important
30:18thing because the last what 15 years has
30:21been like the longest bull market that
30:22we've had forever where it felt like if
30:24you were in the right companies in the
30:26right time everything's always grow all
30:28of the time and in terms of bad news
30:30that you have to deal with okay your
30:32project might get canceled or it might
30:33pivot maybe some people will leave your
30:35team maybe there'll just be some general
30:37sort of work rated stress but very few
30:40Managers from the the earlier
30:42Generations have yet to go through a
30:44downturn like we have where you have to
30:46deal with layoffs you have to deal with
30:48budget cuts doing more with less all of
30:50this kind of consolidation stuff well
30:52and and I guess interesting enough like
30:55not just dealing with you laying off
30:57part of your team but you like like I
31:00think it's important to recognize that
31:01like you said the jelly wobbly the
31:04higher up you are the wob more wobbly
31:06your position so a lot of times like for
31:08example when we had layoffs at Uber um
31:11you know they asked me like if I mean it
31:15was not as direct and we were in
31:16Amsterdam uh where you you you cannot uh
31:19pick and choose who to let go but but
31:21they still ask me like if you had to let
31:23go 25% of your team who would it be and
31:25I just said very clearly like okay well
31:27it would be these people and it would be
31:29done because they're the latest joiners
31:31and I don't have anyone on performance
31:32issues so um but then I was thinking
31:35like what they didn't ask me is is about
31:37me because a lot of times of manager you
31:39know like with when these things happen
31:40often you help the company become more
31:42efficient but then your role might
31:44become inefficient in fact I also know
31:46like some companies who for example let
31:48go of the middle management layer uh at
31:52a scale up so I I I feel you know
31:54there's that
31:56um this is Ty of stress that no one
31:59really prepared you for it and I again
32:02like not to downplay the stress at
32:03individual contributors but I think ADV
32:05managers you have more information and
32:07and more stress to uh deal with and and
32:10especially during a downturn I feel that
32:12stress really really gets on you like at
32:15Uber I remember after the
32:17layoffs uh most managers were not
32:19impacted but most managers left uh as
32:23and you know I I keep in touch with some
32:24of them and it was just a lot of stress
32:26like I don't think anyone
32:28was ready for this so I like given that
32:31we have seen this market and hopefully
32:33it'll turn around but let's let's assume
32:34that it it'll stay how it is like what
32:37are some strategies that you could
32:39suggest for for managers new or existing
32:42ones to cope with this a little bit
32:43better and and to you know F find find
32:46ways to maybe reduce the stress on
32:49yourself uh have a bit better well-being
32:52because that's something I don't really
32:53see uh managers Focus as much I think on
32:56your book you touch a a little bit about
32:58this but I'm not sure how
33:00much yeah i t a little bit about that
33:02especially in the sort of parts around
33:05stoicism and like understanding what you
33:07can control and what you can't control
33:09and I think that I mean in terms of
33:11strategies for managers in in this
33:13environment I mean I think one thing in
33:16the course of an entire career in
33:18technology I think it's highly likely
33:21that everybody and I would probably put
33:23myself in that bucket as well may get
33:25let go somewhere at some point because
33:27it's not in your control it's not
33:29necessarily something you've done it's
33:31just it can happen that's that's the the
33:33downside of our industry it can be very
33:35high growth but also very high opposite
33:38of growth degrowth it's volatile right
33:41it's volatile and so it's it's it's
33:42never your fault that doesn't make it
33:44any more easy to deal with but I think
33:47you always have to remember that it's
33:48not on you so strategies are I mean
33:51obviously from an individual level
33:52always try and make sure that you are
33:54doing high value work and you're doing a
33:56great job that's all the Baseline I
33:58think I've seen some managers being very
34:01open about saying hey like if anything
34:03happened I'm really happy to go back to
34:05doing individual contributor work I'm
34:07still super high context I understand
34:09all the systems we work on I can write
34:11code like don't see me as just a manager
34:13I can do whatever you need so having the
34:16ability to be a manager but still be
34:18close to the details to still really
34:19understand what the team's building to
34:20contribute code if you can like that's
34:23all great as well because it gives you
34:24different paths but yeah going back to
34:26the the more sort of Phil opical side
34:28you just have to understand that there
34:30are things that you can control there
34:32are things that you can't and for the
34:34things that you can't you just have to
34:35try your best and set yourself internal
34:37goals where like in this situation I'm
34:39going to do the best for my team we're
34:40going to build the best software we can
34:42we're going to hit all of those goals
34:43that we can control and The Wider thing
34:45is just not under our control and if it
34:47isn't you just have to learn learn to
34:49let go and and that's really challenging
34:51and it goes through the whole of life
34:53right it's it's not just work yeah and I
34:54guess maybe one one thing I would add is
34:56like during the good times or even a
34:57decent times like we do work in
34:59technology which is a pretty good sector
35:01in in many ways in terms of you know the
35:03flexibility of work the fact that many
35:05of us can work either partially or or
35:07full remote compensation is is often
35:10compared to other Industries just pretty
35:11decent when I look at my peers who uh
35:14graduated high school and the different
35:16Industries so like based on this like
35:19building a nest egg uh or or putting
35:21aside some a bit of a safety nut because
35:23it is volatile right it can be very good
35:26and then at some point it for a short
35:27time hopefully it can can drop but I
35:29feel just having that safety net it just
35:31gives a peace of mind because yeah as as
35:33you said the reality is again I
35:35unfortunately seen this you know people
35:37like very specifically at Uber have
35:38joined and Co hit uh the company had to
35:42have layoffs like I I saw I saw the
35:44numbers it it this was not one of those
35:46the stockholders are doing something it
35:48was actually just like Revenue was going
35:50to zero like literally like on the
35:52graphs so the company had to the people
35:53go and those those were people in my
35:55case who have recently joined but they
35:57obviously joined High Hopes uh and most
35:59of them in fact I think everyone I I
36:01know within a few months they were back
36:03in a different position but I'm just
36:05going to assume that the ones that did
36:07have a bit of a safety net of a few
36:09months they were probably just a lot
36:10less stressed and and a lot more picky
36:12and uh getting up in in whatever that
36:15next role is so that that's that's
36:17probably something that we should all
36:18all remember that like when it's good
36:20times it's good to like I I feel until
36:22now we've always assumed it will be good
36:24times now it's a bit of you know not as
36:26good but it it it just go up and down so
36:28just you know save up where you can yeah
36:30I completely agree there's like basic
36:32sort of personal finance things where
36:33you know if you are fortunate to get a
36:35good job in technology that pays well
36:38don't spend that much money you know
36:41save it and put it aside see if you can
36:43get three months of uh emergency savings
36:45six months of emergency savings maybe
36:46even a year where you know you give
36:48yourself that that safety net so that
36:50you can definitely ride out any bad
36:52times um you know don't get that
36:55promotion or that new job and then
36:57suddenly
36:58buy a house that's twice as big and
37:00assume you've got that pay forever never
37:01do that ever yeah that's that's good
37:04advice so uh can can we just touch on
37:07like three of your favorite ideas in the
37:10book uh that that that you go through
37:13that are maybe unique to this book or or
37:15well unique to
37:17you yeah so I guess the the first one
37:19that comes to mind is the the diagram
37:21around uh delegation um and delegation
37:23is such an interesting thing because it
37:25sounds very basic it's kind of like give
37:27someone some stuff to do and they'll do
37:29it but I think that's where managers get
37:30that wrong a lot because delegation is
37:32kind of an art and it's it's sort of a
37:34gradual Spectrum where fundamentally yes
37:37you are giving people things to do but
37:39the important thing is as a manager that
37:41you are still accountable for those
37:42things getting done and I think that's
37:44where managers can sometimes get it
37:45wrong and they abdicate they just give
37:47things to their staff and then just
37:49abdicate all responsibility and
37:50accountability to them fundamentally
37:53managing well is always remaining
37:54accountable for everything in your
37:55organization that you've delegated out
37:58and the way that you delegate is also it
38:00depends on how skilled or experienced or
38:03high context the individual is if
38:04someone's extremely skilled then you can
38:06delegate a thing to them they'll tell
38:08you when it's done I'm just showing the
38:09diagram that talking about this is the
38:12delegation Spectrum it's a bit hard to
38:13see here but I I feel you know in an
38:16image it kind of explains what you just
38:18did but with a glance basically like how
38:20much you delegate how much control you
38:22have yeah and I come back to that all
38:24the time i' I've used that as a coaching
38:26point in my stuff over and over again
38:27since I wrote that
38:30book another one Contracting is
38:32something I learned from some Management
38:34training he did at brwatch which was
38:35great and it's all to do with those kind
38:37of like awkward first few times that you
38:41meet new staff or even your own manager
38:43you can this works upwards as well but
38:44how can you at the beginning of a
38:45management relationship spend some time
38:48with someone to really understand what
38:50is it that they want from you what do
38:52you want from them what are some of the
38:54ways that it can work really really well
38:56what are some of the ways that it could
38:57go terribly wrong and also how can you
38:59let you know let each other know when
39:00there's a problem and then it just sort
39:02of at the beginning of a relationship
39:03just by preparing some answers to those
39:05questions and sharing them with each
39:06other you can really understand like
39:08what you both need or want from each
39:10other and how you can sort of frame and
39:12build scaffolding around your
39:14relationship so it's successful going
39:15forward that works well so you you you
39:17call this a Contracting exercise so I
39:19guess this is a bit of a getting to know
39:21how the other person Works prefer
39:24preferences Etc in a what sounds like is
39:26a little bit more formal way that can
39:29also be just very efficient right yeah
39:32it's sort of almost like whereing a
39:34manager read me type thing
39:35collaboratively together where you
39:37really understand how they work you
39:38understand how you work and you share
39:40and you try and ahead of time spot ways
39:42in which you may have friction or ways
39:44that you can work together really well
39:46and it does look kind of formal but I've
39:49done it with every member of staff that
39:51I've had since I wrote the book it's
39:52really useful okay so I guess it's one
39:54of those things which like I feel a lot
39:56of bander is like ah that sounds like
39:58very uh you know old school or formal or
40:01like again like I think as engine
40:02managers we want to think ourselves as
40:04cool and you know approachable but you
40:06said you've done it so like okay well I
40:08guess if if you're a manager listening
40:10uh either check the book or or just as
40:12we describe I don't think you need the
40:13book specifically for this you can try
40:15it out and probably hopefully be
40:17surprised yeah we can stick the it's on
40:19on the on the blog as well so I can
40:21stick a link in the description awesome
40:23we'll have a link there and then we
40:25already touched on it just as the last
40:26thing was was really the the sort of the
40:28the stoicism part which um there's a a
40:32really good book called uh the ancient
40:33art of stoic Joy which by William B
40:37Irving I think it's called like how to
40:38live well and you know it really it
40:40really just dives into sort of the the
40:42trichotomy of control which is like
40:44three things like the things that you
40:45control the things that you don't and
40:47then the things where you have some
40:48influence and you can try your best and
40:49I think that very much sums up what it's
40:52like to be a manager because you kind of
40:53exist in this kind of Vortex of things
40:56that you definitely can control amongst
40:59a whole Whirlwind of things that you
41:00don't and really just understanding what
41:03you can is is this about just like so I
41:06also get it like it's just like
41:08acknowledging what are things that you
41:10cannot control and like not being
41:12stressed out about it like and focusing
41:14on the things that you can control which
41:16might you know help influence some of
41:19the other things but ultimately it's not
41:20your decision is that absolutely okay
41:23yeah and it's seeking Clarity throughout
41:25all of that really it's like how do you
41:27lead a team confidently and work on a
41:29team confidently in a way that shows
41:32that you are in control of everything
41:34that you can be in control with but
41:36knowing that
41:37fundamentally things can happen that
41:39that are really nothing to do with you
41:41and we touched upon the economy I think
41:44this is a good one I just recently
41:45talked with the VP of engineering whose
41:47company was acquired and uh he was
41:49telling me that the next day uh the new
41:51company is going to decide who to Fire
41:54and well because it's it's a like it's I
41:57me they went through and they're going
41:58to fire like 10% of Staff or something
42:00like that this was known and so he
42:01didn't know like how much of his team
42:04would be fired exactly and if he would
42:05be fired and I was asking like are you
42:08worried and he said like well I am a bit
42:10worried but my grandma told me that
42:12worrying is just moving back and forth
42:14but not going
42:15anywhere and I was thinking wow that's
42:18so so he was like look I like I'm trying
42:20not to worry because it's out of my
42:22control but I feel as a manager a big
42:24part of the challenges that I've seen is
42:26there's just you get so much information
42:28and you start to worry about so many
42:30things for example again you know like
42:31the negative thing is layoffs and
42:33layoffs are coming and this is happening
42:35but even the positive with promotions
42:36you know like we had a promotions
42:38committee uh well you your your person
42:41person on your team uh is about to be
42:43promoted you really want them to be
42:44promoted you put in the case and then
42:47someone else is going to decide and I
42:49found myself worrying so much about this
42:51where whereas now knowing what I know I
42:53I would have been just like I put in the
42:55effort I'm going to walk away it's not
42:56on me uh and and take it from there so I
42:59feel this is a very easier said than
43:02done but uh maybe managers will be
43:04better off uh reading and listening to
43:06some of this these stoic thoughts
43:08there's a lot of literature on this
43:10isn't there yeah there's that Ryan
43:12holidays blog and podcast the daily
43:14Stoke which is excellent but I think
43:15it's it's to do with like then you build
43:17on that to be transparent if you know
43:20what you can control and what you can't
43:21control then you can be incredibly
43:23transparent with the team in a way that
43:25then doesn't make you feel like you are
43:27responsible for all of the outcomes and
43:30I think that's really important because
43:31like the best managers I've seen are the
43:33ones who just felt calm so I went said
43:37I'm like oh we have a production outage
43:39and like it's okay relax we're handling
43:42it right now here's what we can do
43:43here's what we're we're going to do and
43:46the worst managers have been the ones
43:48well not the worst but the ones that I
43:49just were not helpful who were like oh
43:51my gosh oh my gosh okay this is bad and
43:54I feel it had to do with those managers
43:56and I'm not going to say it's to sism
43:58but they found their peace they they
44:01knew they knew what they can do and and
44:04when they did you know they were very
44:05decisive right like so those those
44:07managers they're sometimes calm but
44:09sometimes he said like okay we're doing
44:10this right now this is urgent but and I
44:13I feel it's like finding that peace
44:14finding that which over time I think it
44:16it came to you but if you can speed it
44:18up uh with mental models it's it's a
44:20great thing to do so this is this has
44:24been really nice James go going through
44:27the book but you know just one note this
44:29is not your only book right what other
44:32book do you have or books so I have a a
44:34book called effective remote work which
44:36if you like the style of of this book um
44:38it's all to do with how do you work
44:40remotely well both for yourself and your
44:42organization you know very similar kind
44:44of narrative Arc of individuals teams
44:46and Company but to do with how to do
44:48remote properly um which is very
44:50relevant to how I work now and there's
44:52another book on the way which is where
44:54we address the middle management layer
44:56upwards which is is very much where I
44:58live in uh in my current world and I'm
45:00writing that right now so I'm I'm maybe
45:02about a third of the way through so
45:03that's the next year thing is is the
45:05title t or not yet TBD TBD on the title
45:08I do that the end okay so so that that's
45:11that's expected to be middle management
45:13and and up yeah so it would deal with
45:15sort of like middle management to
45:16Executive at large ORS no that that is
45:18very exciting and and I have this book
45:20the software Engineers guide book so I
45:22feel this is really good series because
45:25if you're a software engineer there's
45:26this B if you're an an inury manager or
45:29senior manager you have the the your
45:31book become an effective inury manager
45:33if you're working remote you have a book
45:36on on working on that and then if you're
45:37an executive uh who who knows you you'll
45:40have something coming out but uh again
45:42well but thank you this was a really
45:44good discussion and and again uh I still
45:46feel like there are more books coming
45:48out in in management which I think is
45:49very good but this feels to me one of
45:51the most Hands-On ones where it does
45:53feel you have someone sitting next to
45:55you and and just to close it I real like
45:57the stories and the fact that it's it's
45:59it has opinions but it doesn't force it
46:01on you uh this book is 3 years old but
46:03it feels very relevant for me especially
46:05that we still don't have any any any
46:07manager training the only thing I see is
46:09if if you do have an apprentice
46:10Management program you might be able to
46:11skip this otherwise i' i' still
46:14recommend it thank you very much and
46:15congrats on getting yours out cuz two
46:17weeks ago three weeks ago now yeah it
46:19was two and a half weeks ago so it's
46:21it's still very fresh awesome thanks
46:24very much been a pleasure same see you
46:27later thanks for listening to this
46:29episode of the go-to podcast head over
46:31to gpa. Tech to discover lots more
46:34content from the brightest minds and
46:35software
46:36[Music]
46:47development
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