00:07hello thank you for joining us today my
00:09name is Braden Coit's I work at go ahead
00:11sit down I'll introduce the panel in a
00:13minute I work at GV which is a venture
00:15capital fund backed by Google and I work
00:18with startups all the time and this
00:19panel is about building products which
00:21is fun because I get to do that as my
00:23day job but when I get stuck and have
00:26questions I turn to some of these folks
00:29for answers this is a coup sorry Hannah
00:34Nick and Denise and just to start maybe
00:39introduce yourself some products you've
00:41worked on and tell us a little story
00:43about a lesson you've learned about how
00:45you became a better product designer
00:48okay hello everyone i'm koo i I'm
00:52working I'm working with me they make
00:55business cards and other printed gates I
00:57have a interesting job there in that I
01:01have to figure out what we do that's not
01:03business card so we we run a small R&D
01:06lab called offset it's set up like a
01:07start-up that's funded by mu it sits in
01:10a separate building and we work on right
01:14now purely digital products that look at
01:17how people might meet and and how people
01:20kind of share that where I can and the
01:21problems that mu solves on paper we try
01:25and solve on on digital products and
01:28before that I was the creative director
01:31at an agency called mid digital which
01:34wit enough was good at making digital
01:36products and was trying really hard to
01:37make physical products and we run an
01:42agency but we also built our own
01:44products we built a bunch of stuff one
01:48of which was called sticky Graham we put
01:50your Instagram pictures on fridge
01:52magnets and that became widely
01:54successful and during our time there one
01:58of the things that were working on we
02:00set up a kind of grad scheme at mint
02:03called foundry so we had four people who
02:07would leave University and join us for
02:09like a three-month project would give
02:12we'd collectively work and work on
02:14something together idea being that we
02:16want it to be something that we didn't
02:18know a lot about either so that we could
02:21learn from them just as much as they
02:23were learning from us and the first year
02:25that we did this we the brief was make
02:29something physical that's connected
02:32internet this was 2011 and stuff like
02:34that was was pretty new and we the team
02:38made this product called Allie which was
02:43something that took your notifications
02:45and it turned them into smell sorry
02:49Molly had like a little smell canister
02:52and it would say all right if you got a
02:54DM on Twitter it might smell like mint
02:57or you know if you got like a text
02:59message it might smell like something
03:00else from me we were really drinking I
03:02kool aid when we were working on this
03:04we're like you're like notifications I'm
03:06messy you know they're distracting and
03:08and you know what we're gonna do is
03:10we're gonna sort of like figure out
03:11ambient notifications so that you just
03:13like notice notice stuff and you're like
03:15oh yes it is going to rain tomorrow
03:16because roses and and I'm like yeah this
03:21is going to be great everyone's good at
03:23everyone's gonna have one we're going to
03:24stack them so you can add different
03:25smells like when your partner text you
03:28it smells beautiful and when your
03:29ex-partner sexy you know it smells like
03:32and um and we we prototypes it we built
03:36it and and as as you do with these
03:39things we put it on Kickstarter happens
03:41just like it let's let's watch it kind
03:44of roll in and maybe it would hindsight
03:48it's not surprising at all but it didn't
03:50work people different weren't interested
03:51in in a in a robot that's own your
03:54notifications and smell and when we were
03:58sort of thinking about this and we were
04:00trying to figure out what what kind of
04:01happened something that I think we
04:03stumbled on was I remember saying does
04:07anyone in us the team that we're
04:09building there's anyone used this thing
04:11like has have any of you used it while
04:13we were making it and like the entire
04:16company was just silent that no one was
04:18using the thing that we were we were we
04:20were so convinced that people were going
04:21to do this new behavior that we were
04:23talking about fully convinced
04:26selves that this was going to be a thing
04:28that what we're doing but no one was
04:30actually doing it and I it it almost
04:32sounds too simple it almost I feel like
04:35a bit of an idiot saying well yeah none
04:38of us were using it so why did you think
04:39it would work but yeah I guess and
04:42sometimes you need a sometimes you need
04:44it throwing at your face like that to
04:46really kind of understand the lesson
04:48when people always talk about you know
04:50you know make stuff that you view
04:52yourself understand that you use but
04:54yeah sometimes it takes something like
04:56that for you to come to the realization
04:58that you know people know what they're
04:59talking about when they say that yeah
05:01new behaviors are very hard to set up
05:02yeah for sure I how about you sure hi
05:06everyone my name is hannah and i work
05:09for a new music start up in New York
05:11called drip and we are reinventing fan
05:14clubs for the modern musician before
05:16that I ran my own company called this is
05:19my jam and I lived here in London where
05:22I before that was the creative director
05:24at last.fm and while i was at last.fm i
05:29think the most important lesson that I
05:32learned that really shaped my career as
05:35a as a product designer and as a design
05:37leader is the lesson of how important it
05:43is to be vulnerable in front of your
05:44team and how that is actually where
05:47power lies as a design leader and this
05:51is actually not that different from how
05:53we launched products to I think that if
05:56something is if someone seems to be two
06:00perfect people are going to invent flaws
06:03or they're going to invent
06:05vulnerabilities for that person because
06:07nobody wants to be led by somebody who
06:09is too perfect and it's the same thing
06:12with products if the product looks too
06:15perfect it doesn't seem I think like it
06:18could be real and we all know too that
06:21there are lots of flaws when we launch
06:23things and so being a little bit more
06:25upfront about what the flaws are and
06:28talking about those vulnerabilities with
06:29your user base I think is a really great
06:32way to breed empathy with your users
06:35when I was working on this is my
06:37jam we had a lot of problems with it but
06:40one of our biggest problems that we
06:42didn't have a whole lot of control
06:44around was dealing with the third
06:47parties that we interoperate with for
06:49instance YouTube when it would throw an
06:51error something would happen and the
06:53user would see something that we
06:54couldn't really control that much and we
06:57kept on getting a lot of customer
06:59support requests about this that were
07:00just sort of hard to deal with and I got
07:02sick of emailing people and saying like
07:04I'm sorry yeah that happens sometimes
07:06and so what we did is we invented a
07:09story for this flaw for this
07:11vulnerability we invented these things
07:13called the jam bots which were these
07:16like fictitious robots that helped put
07:20your Tim's on the screens and when
07:22something went wrong with YouTube or we
07:24had an error that we couldn't deal with
07:25I would email people back and I'd be
07:27like I'm really sorry you know the jam
07:29BOTS were drinking last night they're
07:30like a little loopy this morning like
07:32let's see if we can fix this and so
07:34users started responding to this really
07:36positively and we turned this flaw this
07:38vulnerability into a story that actually
07:40made sense and and people liked it we
07:43ended up using them like on our downtime
07:45screens and stuff like that so that
07:48would be my biggest lesson as a product
07:50designer is the power and vulnerability
07:53thanks hey Nick hi my name is Nick Marsh
07:56I'm currently the head of product at a
07:58company called lost my name where kids
08:00personalized book publishing company and
08:02before that I run my own company called
08:05makeshift that was a sort of weird sort
08:07of startups to do developing different
08:09kinds of apps and products and before
08:12that works in digital design consultancy
08:14for some time and I was thinking you
08:17know that's about it sort of the
08:18revelation questions like what have I
08:20learned and I get built a bit on you
08:22know what up who is saying about you
08:25know working on products that you
08:26yourself use and you know my story i
08:30think is about when i was doing design
08:33consulting i was working with a with a
08:34guy called a see who he had this idea
08:37for a kids book and we were always like
08:41going out and pitching and you know
08:42trying to win a projects and stuff like
08:44that he was like I've got this idea for
08:45this book you know so I you know I
08:46really think it's a good idea and I was
08:48like yeah yeah see you know
08:49whatever put it to one side and I went
08:53off to go in to do a company that was
08:55full of like big ideas about you know we
08:56were going to develop all kinds of
08:58software for businesses and interesting
09:01and it didn't really work out for lots
09:04of complicated reasons and sort of
09:06stayed friends with a see I mean while
09:07his his little kids publishing idea had
09:11blossomed into this into this company
09:13called lost my name and they sort of
09:16received all this investment they had
09:17this new office and stuff and and he
09:19said you know when you come and come and
09:20work with me now and you know for me
09:23that sort of move over to working there
09:25was this like real sort of moment of
09:29realizing that the things you should
09:30really sort of concentrate on is it's
09:32not just like products that you like but
09:35working also with people who are your
09:36friends and I think sort of trying to
09:38find that unity in the work of the
09:41things you make and the people you work
09:42with matching up and you know since then
09:46it's just been you know this job that I
09:48have now I feel very lucky because I for
09:51the first time ever not only do I you
09:53know use the product and you know use
09:55these kinda products all the time but
09:56they sort of have this deep meaning in
09:58my life so I've got young children at
09:59the moment and so so every night when
10:01i'm reading kid storybook some sort of
10:03doing research and trying to understand
10:05more about these kinds of products and
10:07there's a first time I could ever
10:08explain what I do to my children as well
10:11which is really nice and yes I think you
10:14know myself lesson was like one seemed
10:16to reach that point you know in your
10:17career where you do have choices about
10:19what you can do the I think like the
10:22really really simple way of figuring out
10:23what's the right thing to do is to think
10:25about the people you enjoy working with
10:26and just work with them there's work for
10:29me yeah Denise hello I'm Denise I
10:33currently work for a startup called
10:35workable who make recruitment software
10:37which is one of those things that until
10:39you need it you just don't know why
10:42anybody would need it or what it is or
10:44what it even does and if you want to
10:47know what it does you can look it up
10:48this is not a sales pitch and before I
10:51worked for workable I worked for a
10:53company called Berg and we made a
10:55product we did lots of things ready but
10:57we made a product called little printer
10:59iot product internet of things so a very
11:03nice chance to make a mixture of
11:05physical and digital product and prior
11:08to that i worked for mu and i was
11:10original creative director there so
11:12again a nice mix of physical and digital
11:14but the physical had no digital in it
11:16once you got it it was just physical and
11:18that was that and I've really enjoyed
11:21that actually the mix of physical
11:24products and digital stuff and it's
11:27interesting listening to everybody else
11:28is kind of learnings because every time
11:29anyone says something like I've got a
11:31thing about that though you know there's
11:35say the the thing you're talking about
11:37with he was sort of saying you know
11:40nobody wanted our product I think one of
11:41the things that and I've learnt relating
11:45to that is just because you can doesn't
11:47mean you should like you know there's a
11:48lot of tech that is amazing I think I
11:51was having a quite a long conversation
11:52last night with somebody about kind of
11:55AR and NVR and stuff like that and you
11:58know the kind of alternate reality you
11:59pick up the phone and look around and
12:01and see things like you can do that but
12:04nobody's really use it yet nobody's
12:06worked out what it's for like just
12:08because you can doesn't really mean you
12:10should you know QR codes are another
12:12example and and to your point about and
12:17about kind of showing vulnerability it
12:19so it's a kind of beautiful seems thing
12:21which we used to talk about bird quite a
12:22lot which is you know a seamless
12:25experience is kind of nice if it is
12:27seamless if it's as soon as it starts
12:29showing bumps then it's extremely
12:32jarring because it supposed to be
12:33seamless and all of a sudden there were
12:35things that are happening that are
12:36breaking things and we did a very
12:38similar thing to you at me we had when
12:41you place an order you would get an
12:42email from from little moo-hoo which was
12:45an auto generated email it said it was
12:48also generated it was like I am a robot
12:50this is this is what's going on and we
12:53had way back when we launched stickers
12:56we had a problem with some of the data
12:57we didn't record the the cover data
13:00people could choose the cover the color
13:03of her cover for their sticker book and
13:04that data got lost so we sent an email
13:08new and we we kind of apologized and a
13:11little moose it was like you know I'm
13:12sorry I feel like a bit of an idiot like
13:13this is what's happened and the email
13:16was so nice that lots of people were
13:17just like oh I didn't get that email I
13:19wish I'd got that email and it's like
13:21wait you wish that we'd screwed your
13:22order up just so you could get that
13:24email and it's it's a way of turning
13:26something you know like not so good into
13:29something that people will forgive they
13:30don't love it you know people aren't
13:32going to be thrilled when things don't
13:33work but they might forgive you and but
13:37I guess my kind of Maine or one of the
13:39lessons that I've learned from really
13:41working from mu and before that in the
13:44wake so i started in magazines but to
13:46now is that it takes an army of people
13:49to make a product and its really
13:50brilliant that we're all product
13:52designers and its really great and I
13:53think people are understanding service
13:55design a lot more now but you know
13:58there's also customer service and
14:00there's the warehouse and you know in
14:02this case there was the packaging like
14:04you know there are things that you you
14:06don't even think about until you get to
14:09that point so you don't want to design
14:11packaging for your IOT product that is
14:13like not flat packed because the chances
14:16are if you're a really small company and
14:17you're making your kick-started thing
14:19you're going to be paying a lot of
14:20warehouse money to store air like you
14:23know there are simple things like that
14:24that people don't think about when their
14:26window because you've come through
14:27digital in lots of lots of ways you
14:29haven't come from the physical side of
14:31things and I think that it's a massive
14:35you know is something that I've been
14:37very privileged to work across a
14:39spectrum of stuff because I've worked in
14:41very small companies and I think anybody
14:42else working in a small company i SPECT
14:44somebody recently they were you know
14:46talking about launching a kick sort of
14:47thing and they hadn't thought about any
14:49of this stuff and they hadn't thought
14:50about you know who's going to package
14:52those things who's going to check my
14:54work before you ship them who's gonna
14:55you know who's going to deal with your
14:57returns and all of that kind of stuff
14:58it's a whole army of people that make a
15:01successful product whether it's physical
15:03or digital and and you know it's fun
15:07getting to poke all the edges if you can
15:10but is it's very nice and easy to sit
15:12here and be like weird product designers
15:14everything's brilliant we've we solve
15:16problems and change the world it's like
15:18maybe but not on our own
15:20yes and when you have to work with all
15:22those people you have to figure out how
15:24the interface and how you're going to do
15:26it all together yeah I saw Luna's talk
15:28this morning was amazing and at the
15:30break at lunch I was looking up her
15:32conditional design manifesto there was a
15:34line in there that said I try to get
15:36this right the the process is the
15:38product and I'm kind of curious how you
15:40stay mindful about your product
15:42development process how do you talk
15:44about it on your team do you talk about
15:45it on your team to use something off the
15:47shelf to use something that works just
15:49for you how do you do that do you mean
15:54in terms of how the product gets built
15:55yeah digital for that scale yeah when I
16:00was terrified that someone else who
16:03wants to go first you go first it yeah I
16:07mean process is critical I've said
16:10before I think and one talk I'm trying
16:13to remember the line but like you can
16:15have like an ace team of like the most
16:17hot people ever and if they don't have
16:19the right process I've can see the whole
16:21thing fall apart and I've seen this
16:23happen I actually saw it happen once at
16:24last.fm where we had like the best
16:26people on the job and the process wasn't
16:28defined and the product is turned out
16:30terribly so process is is really
16:34important I think there's two things
16:36that I do with my team's process was the
16:40first one is before we start working on
16:43anything we talk about how we're going
16:45to do it and what tool we're going to
16:47use for the job I'm really big on the
16:50idea that as we gain experience as
16:53designers we add more tools to our tool
16:56belts you're talking like Photoshop or
16:58sketch or or anything you know it could
17:01be like a whiteboard session it could be
17:04a wireframe it could be a prototype it
17:05could be sketching in code it could be a
17:09photoshop it could be whatever but as we
17:11as we learn and as we grow in as we get
17:13more experienced we add more tools to
17:15the tool belt sort of and you learn how
17:18to use them all at the appropriate time
17:21the same way that if you had an actual
17:23tool belt you wouldn't use like a hammer
17:25to do every job you would use a
17:27screwdriver or whatever else you need to
17:29pull out of your tool belt
17:31and so I'm big on using the right tool
17:33for the job because I think often what
17:35happens with process is it gets defined
17:37as something that's too linear and it's
17:39like okay we approach every project the
17:41exact same way where we always do these
17:43certain steps and that's not necessarily
17:45the case some projects it's a back of
17:48the napkin sketch some projects it's a
17:50whiteboard session some projects it's a
17:52very high fidelity Photoshop mock-up or
17:54sketch mock-up or whatever so I always
17:57talk about how we're going to do it
17:58first and then the second thing that I
18:00do is something that I learned once at a
18:02panel at South by Southwest and i wish i
18:05can remember who gave this because it
18:07was a brilliant piece of advice that
18:08I've used ever since but if this person
18:11is watching this video at some point
18:13please tell me they talked about turning
18:16the creative corner and basically the
18:18idea that first when you're making
18:21something you are concept in coming up
18:24with something together collectively and
18:26then at a certain point you shift gears
18:28and you go into like production method
18:30and these two things these two modes of
18:33working are actually really really
18:34different and it's when you're not clear
18:37about these things a lot of problems can
18:40arise and so two examples of these
18:42problems are like you're trying to run
18:43maybe like a brainstorm session or
18:46something like that and someone's like
18:47yeah but we need to get this done
18:49tomorrow and all of a sudden like all
18:51the energy in the room is just like gone
18:52or conversely you're all like trying to
18:56finish something really late at night
18:57it's like two in the morning and
18:59someone's like you know it would be a
19:01really cool feature and you're like I'm
19:03going to kill you right so those two
19:06things happen when that process isn't
19:09signposted and so what I do with my
19:11teams is I'm very clear with them like
19:13okay today we are turning the creative
19:15corner we're going from that way of
19:17working where like we could talk about
19:19any feature whatever we wanted to do and
19:21research to very clear production and
19:24now like everybody to their places and
19:25when I heard this described once at this
19:28panel they likened it to the idea of a
19:30professional kitchen where like chefs
19:31are all coming up with different ideas
19:33and tastes and flavors but when it comes
19:36time to put dinner on the table they all
19:37have very specific stations like you
19:40know the sauce person is not going to be
19:42messing with the pastry it's like
19:44to your places so those are the two
19:46things that i use for process so this in
19:48the world of business they've been
19:50talking a lot about design thinking
19:51lately and that's that's largely a
19:53process-driven think similarly do you
19:55find that the business people you work
19:57with no the design process now and it's
19:59a lot easier to get stuff done or
20:00because it so kind of just as hard as
20:02ever definitely more receptive to it I
20:05think it depends where your way yeah I
20:08skipped a bit where I was working for
20:10HMRC and not with GDS but you know as
20:14part of the whole government restructure
20:16and it's difficult like yeah sometimes
20:20people have a very firm vision of what
20:22they want already and they're not
20:23necessarily going to have anything to do
20:25with that design thinking so when you're
20:27in situations like that how do you deal
20:28with them and we all have difficult
20:30clients that we work with and when those
20:31clients don't understand the process
20:33behind design how do you the way they
20:35did it educate them extremely well at
20:38GDS and it helps if you can like love to
20:40someone and drag them into a room is to
20:42just show them user research show them
20:45actual users using a product because you
20:48know there's nothing like it you think
20:49you think that it's all done you're like
20:51I understand that everyone understands
20:53it I am the user you show them real
20:55users and they're just like the scales
20:57fall from their eyes is that okay this
20:58is this is not what I was thinking when
21:01I was less than the agency just just
21:04with most people I was getting very
21:06uncomfortable about the idea or I think
21:09pitching is like a really weird thing
21:10because it's a set of people who've
21:13decided that they have a thing or a
21:16problem that they once all them and they
21:18have some notion that sort of order
21:20already decided what they want the
21:22solution to me to that thing which is
21:25which is not really how we build
21:28products when you think about it we try
21:30and which ryan actually tease out the
21:32problem understand existing behavior and
21:35why people might do certain things that
21:36the way that they do and then try and
21:38kind of see if there's a solution that
21:40exists that can they can sit there so
21:42one thing we were trying to do was and
21:46this this was a gamble than sometimes
21:49would lose business from it but was to
21:52try and answer a situation where we were
21:54asked a pitch by by basically going in
21:57saying we don't know what we should make
22:00and we don't think what you've decided
22:02you should make is the thing that you
22:04should make it might be but right now
22:06where we stand we don't know so what we
22:08what we do is we would just take a few
22:13kind of product propositions we've come
22:15up with say like five or six more
22:17solutions to that problem and instead
22:19just to customer testing and and in and
22:22just go in and say we took your idea and
22:24we took a bunch of ideas that we came up
22:26with and and we just start with your
22:29existing customers or potential
22:30customers and here's what they had to
22:32say about them and and we would we would
22:35say we don't know what the right product
22:38is today but but if we have a process in
22:41place that gets us there then then
22:43that's how we propose to work and
22:45actually it would work as a really good
22:47litmus test as to whether that was going
22:49to be a fruitful working relationship
22:51because if they were comfortable with
22:52that idea then then you had a good sense
22:56that they were they would be comfortable
22:58with and you know things not going well
23:02and the product or not not sort of this
23:05thing is you know it zigzags all over
23:07the place when you're doing that and I
23:08think it would be a good idea it would
23:10give us a good idea of how comfortable
23:12they would be with that process I'm from
23:15in the room actually about user
23:17researcher who here is a wash user
23:19research before in their company raise
23:20your hand if you've done it cool who's
23:22it watch user research on your product
23:23in the last 30 days okay about half of
23:26the original hands and who finds clients
23:28very receptive to going out and talking
23:30to customers alright almost like just a
23:32couple now so that's my big question
23:34like it's clearly valuable we've done it
23:37before but it's hard to do it every
23:38every iteration and it's very hard for
23:41clients to buy into doing it so how do
23:43you convince either in-house or outside
23:46like in the agency world how you
23:48convince people the value of it before
23:49they see it you just have to show it to
23:52them on and like you just have to
23:53persuade them let's take at least 10
23:55minutes and then you always find as soon
23:57as as soon as you do that people doors
23:59on the floor you know they can't they
24:01can't believe it you know how bad it is
24:03and you're always very very careful
24:06about what you know which kind of user
24:08research you presenta clients
24:10you don't want to show them loads and
24:11loads of bad stuff because I will see
24:13that scares everybody but yeah you just
24:15like your hat you just have to show them
24:16and then as soon as people have watched
24:18a few of those videos or or whatever I
24:20just find everybody comes around and if
24:22they don't you don't want to work with
24:23them you know because they will say just
24:26not going to get to it at that point
24:28that you made earlier though about you
24:30know this the people that have that that
24:33you're pitching to they have a vision
24:34you know and then in that vision based
24:37approach to design like I have an idea
24:38just build my idea please and then this
24:41typical kind of HCI view of design which
24:43is we're going out looking at the
24:45customers and understanding what they
24:46need in building it those are very
24:48different ways to approach building
24:49products how do you how do you know
24:52which way to lean because I I feel like
24:55big things would never have been made if
24:56if someone didn't say I have a vision
24:58get out of my way I'm building it but
25:00then again that's a very arrogant way to
25:01go in design and a very easy way to end
25:03up in a ditch somewhere where you're
25:05like you made a huge mistake so then how
25:08do you know when to balance us two
25:09approaches it really depends on the
25:11nature of the vision yeah like if people
25:13come to such a good vision you know well
25:14no you know a bad vision is often you
25:17know I have this specific product I want
25:19to make it's a smell based notification
25:23robot right whereas a great a really
25:26great vision is often articulated as a
25:27problem you're trying to solve for
25:29somebody else you know a few of the
25:31marquee or view of a customer or a
25:32changing the world but yeah so a big
25:35females become and everything it and a
25:37big vision is obviously really really
25:38good and then you know you dial back and
25:40use the small iterative approach to get
25:41there and you say what's the smallest
25:42thing you know that we can we can do I
25:44think that that's where like you know
25:47more sophisticated design process gets
25:49guess useful in basically helping to
25:51challenge briefs by the beginning and
25:53saying you know before we start work
25:54what's the real problem that which one a
25:56sort of you know which is what agencies
25:58tend to get quite good at doing I find a
26:00lot of that discipline as well starts to
26:01sort of discipline it disappears a bit
26:03inside companies you know the kind of
26:06whole kind of what's division what's to
26:08brief you know crafting the right
26:10process and so I can get quite lost
26:12insider inside busy companies and it's
26:15something I think that you know a lot of
26:16the time people are kind of dumping on
26:18agencies setting all you know agencies
26:19aren't very good and we should do all
26:21the design work in-house and stuff I
26:22think that's actually
26:23thing that I tend to do very well as
26:24making sure you know up front that
26:25there's like a something exciting to
26:28work on you there is something really
26:30romantic and our industry isn't there
26:32about that that's sort of you know it
26:34was just there was just two of them and
26:35they were really garage and they just
26:37had it that they had a dream and they
26:38made it happen and and we almost
26:40fetishize that view of product building
26:42to a point both but I think in our
26:45industry but also outside it because
26:48this the kind of the anomalies that our
26:51success is born out of those are the
26:53things that make the good story so
26:55anyone who has exposure to kind of
26:57successful products outside it you know
26:59it's it's it's that those are the
27:01stories that that that make it there's
27:04nothing too sexy about kind of people
27:06saying well we did sort of think about
27:08it and we went this way and that then
27:10work and then with it this and we spoke
27:11to some people and ultimately we made
27:13something that solves a problem for them
27:14that's it yet great but you know there
27:16isn't like there's not enough Hollywood
27:18in that yeah yeah I just want what is
27:20those stories get truncated to write
27:22what we don't often talk about is the
27:24part before people have the idea which
27:27is actually the part that has more in
27:29common with like the you know
27:31traditional HCI way of going about
27:33things which is a lot of watching and
27:35learning like I had many people ask me
27:39like how did you come up with the idea
27:40for this is my jam with your co-founder
27:42and they want to hear a story that was
27:44like oh yeah one day we were just like
27:46BAM here it is like lightning bolt hit
27:48me and is like of course it didn't work
27:50like that we had spent years working in
27:53the music industry understanding the
27:55market the legalities like the pain
27:57points for users like years and years
27:59watching all this stuff before we had
28:02that idea and then it came to us like
28:04that's I think the part that often gets
28:06left out of these stories is sure you
28:09can have a vision but usually the vision
28:11comes from like a lot of observation and
28:13research and tinkering beforehand and
28:15that comes from passion like you don't
28:17spend that much time thinking about
28:20something so deeply if you're not super
28:22passionate about it to begin with so as
28:25you're making decisions about the
28:26product and you know you're pulled
28:28through to the customers needs and
28:29you're pulled by your vision as well
28:31whether that's based in data or
28:32experience or just you know you want to
28:34build a small machine like
28:36um this is the guy you know no there's
28:39this other thing that pulls us as well
28:41which is data and that's that's
28:43something that's changed in the world of
28:44design the last couple years where you
28:46have these growth teams so you see you
28:47put a button on the page and you're like
28:49look it should be blue and they tell you
28:50you'll a five percent better conversion
28:52if you make it a shocking pink how do
28:54you and it's not surprised make a button
28:59gold okay so how do you how do you
29:03balance those two things should you
29:04always do what makes better conversion
29:06or and then how do you make a good
29:07argument back to your team about when
29:09something should be for a design
29:11principle instead of for the best
29:12conversion or the best metrics it's very
29:17hard yeah really yeah like understanding
29:18whether you've achieved a local maximum
29:20inside a given design basically is
29:22almost input an impossible problem and I
29:26think it's all about relationships
29:27inside the company and it's just about
29:28you know having respect for the work
29:30that those people are doing and those
29:32guys having respect for the work you're
29:33doing and working together and it is it
29:36is really difficult though when somebody
29:39can basically slap a spreadsheet in
29:41front of you and say yeah well I'm sorry
29:43but this new design is performing
29:44one-point-four percent worse than the
29:46old design so rolling back to the old
29:47design like but guys there's a plan you
29:49know it's like it's all gonna fit
29:50together is going to be amazing and yes
29:53it's really difficult i guess it's where
29:55again like sort of qualitative user
29:57research and vision and so on is we can
29:59sort of bring that in and say okay this
30:01isn't working but we're going to stick
30:02with this like core idea and we're going
30:05we'll go and change it a bit because you
30:07know we're on it we're on a mission here
30:09we're going we're going in this
30:09direction so i think that's the thing
30:11that's most frustrating two designers
30:12because on the one side you've got the
30:14qualitative research and you've learned
30:15we think this works better for all these
30:18because of all these conversations we've
30:19had with customers but then the
30:21spreadsheet lands and it says it's
30:22converting at five percent less but you
30:23got to be humbled now it'll be gone like
30:25like its true you know your thing is you
30:27have to respect the fact that that's
30:28that's a fact yeah right you got to deal
30:32with that fact so it kind of becomes
30:33ignore it like our data yeah it's no
30:39yeah yeah yeah we've talked about this
30:42before yeah like I mean we're talking
30:44about just like when do you trust your
30:47guts and when they have to go with that
30:48I think like there's one thing it in
30:52teams might my general approach to this
30:55is to kind of say like you're working
30:57with these people for a reason you
30:58hopefully trust their opinion and and
31:01and and trust their gut feeling about
31:03something anyway before like at the
31:06decision-making stage you know how do
31:07you decide to to kind of go against it I
31:09think there's something to be said about
31:11if someone feels sorry passionate about
31:14something that they are willing to kind
31:16of just say I really I don't know why
31:18but I really believe we should do this I
31:20feel like you kinda have to give them a
31:22shot like unless it's you know
31:24ridiculous and to the detriment of
31:25everything that you're doing I kind of
31:28feel like sometimes you just have to
31:30take that hit and it's one the end of
31:32the world if it if it converts y % less
31:34one practical thing as we've got this
31:37conversion rate optimization team right
31:39in my in my work they have an acronym
31:41for that crow yeah everything's crow
31:43little crows all over everything they
31:44got the chrome unity that you can part
31:46of you get like look pro badges no no
31:49it's completely real and everything's
31:52broke as puns everywhere but one thing
31:54that we've done basically is you know
31:56put a really great designer sitting next
31:58to the guy who's in charge of all this
32:00stuff and they work together so you know
32:03we don't ship tests that don't look
32:05pretty good anyway right I think you
32:07know it's just a really obvious just
32:09like get people working together you
32:11know it's not so it's not a separate
32:12thing and actually conversion
32:14optimization is a mobile methodology
32:15really that everybody should be using in
32:17the business you know you should all be
32:19interested in increasing conversion yeah
32:21the point is you are there to try and
32:22sell things it's like yeah it's not if
32:24you want to make up and that's a
32:26separate thing that if you're trying to
32:27I want to emphasize a point that you
32:29made about like it's not a separate
32:31thing I think it's a big part of our job
32:33as product designers is to hold and
32:35balance the the holistic vision for
32:39something with like the incremental
32:42change or feature whatever we're doing
32:44right now it's sort of the shore view in
32:46and we're constantly calibrating and
32:49recalibrating that was like every single
32:51thing that we do and so when you get
32:53some data back on like one specific
32:55thing the worst thing I think you can do
32:57is just look about look at that in
32:59isolation because nothing exists in
33:01isolation everything we do is a system
33:03and so when you start looking at that
33:05piece of data with how it relates to the
33:07system or the bigger vision or like are
33:09all the pieces there that need to be
33:11there for this to make sense then you
33:13can start formulating like a better
33:15argument and crafting a better story or
33:18going out and testing it again with like
33:20something that's going to give you more
33:21information absolutely I think
33:24increasingly as well I mean because of
33:25my company is getting a bit bigger like
33:27I spend a lot of my time to think about
33:29who should work with who like and and
33:31and that's one of the ways of getting
33:32those tensions and so on right and
33:35actually a lot of the work is you've
33:36stopped building on your idea that it
33:37takes it takes an army of people right
33:39and like if you want to design complex
33:42products that are you know ambitious
33:44most the work is you know obviously like
33:46finding great people and hiring them and
33:48then making sure that they're all
33:49working together in the right way the
33:52teams are right and they're not
33:53overlapping but they are overlapping but
33:55you know they're sharing but they're not
33:56showing too much they can concentrate
33:57you know and actually I find most of my
33:59work is is about people and checking
34:03who's working on what with who and then
34:05occasionally sort of doing a little bit
34:07of design that's kind of quite abstract
34:09it's like yeah we shall go in this
34:10direction you know but it's not it's not
34:13actually sort of crafting the details
34:14because there's loads of other people
34:16who you know really focused on that like
34:17is the button pink or yellow fuchsia you
34:21know that's like there's a specialist
34:22person we actually had that we had a
34:24button summit recently to discuss this
34:28at this issue I want to dive into that
34:30idea of building a team because design
34:33is such a diverse discipline there's
34:34people with all sorts of different
34:35skills so when you put together a team
34:37are you always thinking kind of I just
34:39got to find the most talented designer
34:41or do you approach it in a different way
34:45like when you're growing a team from
34:46just yourself to the next ten people how
34:49do you think about that process what are
34:50you looking for we am I my previous
34:54company where they a for design where to
34:56completely team-based hiring approach so
35:00it was kind of completely bottom up so
35:03every single person the design team was
35:06responsible for hiring down to a kind of
35:09writing job ads deciding what sort of
35:11person we needed in the team and kind of
35:13what what skills we were lacking in that
35:15in that mix and and we would we had kind
35:20of quite a long and kind of arduous I
35:21guess interview process but part of that
35:24reason was to get every single person
35:27the team talking to the person that they
35:29would be working with and and if ever we
35:31had the opportunity to get them into
35:34work with us for any sort of time we
35:36would we would sort of take it and um
35:37any person saying no at any point was
35:41enough to say that we couldn't hire that
35:44take that person even if even if they
35:46were the most talented can that um I
35:48think I believe a lot in kind of teams
35:52getting team balances like one of the
35:55trickiest things I think about making
35:57products one person's effect especially
35:58if you're a smaller team is is so
36:01massive that the kind of gravity of
36:04anything you add into that mix will will
36:07forever change I think what what you
36:09kind of do so yet what's the most
36:12important thing you could be doing so my
36:15old boss he always had this kind of
36:17saying that hiring was at any given
36:19point point the most important thing
36:21that you could be doing so if you if you
36:23had to be doing hiring you had to you
36:25had to drop work to do it yeah because
36:27that was the that was the single thing
36:28that you should be focusing on Oh for
36:30anything else I don't know what kind of
36:32your experience that's why I haven't
36:34found a magic way to do it I'm in the
36:36process of hiring someone at the moment
36:37and it said it is hard yeah and you just
36:40use your software I to do that but
36:44finding something and actually having to
36:47talk to them and we the software doesn't
36:49do that and yeah it is hard and you know
36:53you it's that thing of you get on with
36:56somebody really well in an interview but
36:57it's not the same as as a day-to-day
36:59thing someone's portfolio cannot of
37:01course be great but then you don't
37:02necessarily know exactly what they've
37:04done every project you know pretty much
37:06you could probably pull everybody in
37:09this room and i'm sure loads of people
37:10here worked on the iPlayer like everyone
37:12to design the iPlayer there's
37:13loads of things that you look at and the
37:16crop up on everybody Seavey's like what
37:18did you do on those things so it's yeah
37:21it's very hard well one thing we've
37:23introduced the thoughts I practical
37:24thing we've introduced in the company is
37:26we've just created a design ladder sort
37:28of bored from the engineering ladder
37:30concept and initially I was a bit like
37:32well you know putting everybody like so
37:35we've got sort of we got three design
37:36disciplines of digital design
37:38communication design and print design
37:39inside the company and then each one of
37:41those is a tier you know from junior to
37:43mid to senior to principal and initially
37:47I thought it was a bit to over process
37:49and so on but actually in writing and
37:51working on it with the team it's really
37:53really valuable because one of the first
37:56things we can do is we just it's like an
37:58audit of the team and we found that some
38:01of the teams are two junior for example
38:02and southern teams are two senior and
38:03one of the things we really want to have
38:04is that mix of you know younger people
38:07and older people working together we
38:09want everyone to be excellent but we do
38:10want to have you know a mix because i
38:12think you know experienced people get
38:14pushed harder by new people and teaching
38:16them stuff and obviously and you know
38:18younger people you know really benefit
38:20from working with older people and then
38:21it's also really clear everybody like
38:23how what they need to do basically if
38:26they want to progress their career and
38:27it's not based on you know so much on
38:30like relationships and you know like
38:32going out for beers with somebody or
38:33whatever instead it's quite clear and
38:35it's kind of you know you want to get to
38:36senior designer well you know you need
38:38to sort of like evidence these things
38:40like you know taking ownership of a full
38:42part of the application you know setting
38:44up entirely new base styles from scratch
38:46you know leading on major projects out
38:48whatever is specific things in you so
38:50that document was actually am quite
38:51useful I'm meaning to like share it
38:54basically because took us a while to
38:56write I think it's a beautiful point and
38:58on thank you so much thank you please a
39:01round of applause for our panelists
