00:00 you don't have to go that hard every day
00:01 in in training with the high intensity
00:04 you're building the cake
00:06 but racing is eating the cake
00:08 as we say in norway you gotta balance
00:10 that if you eat the cake too much then
00:12 you're gonna be in trouble
00:14 it's been given these different names
00:16 polarized and 80 20 and things like that
00:20 but what the the fundamental commonality
00:22 the most consistent thing you see is
00:26 most of the training
00:28 of the best performers
00:30 independent of endurance sport if
00:32 they're if their event lasts
00:35 four or five minutes or longer
00:38 all the way out the hours and hours
00:40 they're training fairly similarly
00:43 and most of their training intensity is
00:46 in the physiology terms below that first
00:52 everyday language you would say they're
00:56 what for them is fairly easy talking
00:59 pace fairly comfortable but they're
01:02 sometimes for a long time
01:04 it is very adaptive it generates
01:07 adaptations in the heart in the
01:11 you don't have to go
01:13 full full bore full speed to get those
01:19 they do some of that high intensity work
01:21 also there's more variability
01:24 this is for milo's show episode number
01:26 50. 50 already thank you so much for
01:29 tuning in my name is flores giermann and
01:32 on this podcast i speak with different
01:34 guest experts about ways to become a
01:37 stronger healthier and happier at least
01:40 and for this special episode number 50
01:42 i'm giving away several different large
01:45 prizes and i'll be sharing more
01:47 information about that at the end of
01:50 finally had a chance to sit down with dr
01:52 steven seiler he's been on my radar for
01:54 many years and i'm so glad that we're
01:57 finally able to record a conversation
02:00 many of you listening have probably
02:02 heard of the 80 20 approach that also
02:06 applies to endurance training
02:08 meaning that eighty percent of your
02:11 workout intensity is at a lower
02:13 intensity and about twenty percent of
02:15 your workouts are at a higher intensity
02:18 dr steven zeiler he has studied many of
02:21 the world-class elite athletes and he
02:24 started drawing several different
02:26 conclusions and he actually was able to
02:29 identify this 80 20 rule that applies to
02:32 endurance training as well of how some
02:34 of the best elite athletes are training
02:37 and this polarized training approach is
02:39 quite counter-intuitive in the early
02:41 stages but now it is being widely
02:44 accepted by many different coaches and
02:46 athletes out there dr seiler is a
02:49 well-known exercise physiologist located
02:52 in norway and we talk about exercise
02:54 physiology talk about training
02:56 adaptations in particular regarding
03:00 for this episode number 50 i'm going to
03:03 be giving away two large prizes the
03:06 first one is a 150 dollar gift card for
03:09 path projects this is the only running
03:12 apparel that i run in and many women
03:14 actually end up enjoy the path projects
03:16 gear as well the running shirts the
03:19 beanies and the hats
03:21 i'm also giving away a lifetime
03:23 membership to my personal best running
03:25 coaching program and more info can be
03:28 found at pbprogram.com
03:31 to enter to win one of these two prizes
03:33 just let me know in the comments on
03:35 youtube what was your favorite lesson
03:37 your favorite quote or takeaway from
03:39 this episode i know there's so many
03:41 different nuggets in here i would love
03:43 to hear from you in the comments what
03:44 was it that stood out to you over there
03:47 and this actually becomes a really fun
03:50 from a community perspective of what the
03:52 different takeaways from people was
03:55 i would love to hear from you there
03:57 without further ado i hope you enjoy my
03:59 conversation with dr steven seiler
04:02 welcome to the extra mileage show really
04:04 appreciate you coming on the show and
04:06 sharing your experiences over here
04:09 well thanks for the invitation and i i
04:11 was impressed with an interview you did
04:15 and i thought well that's i'm in good
04:17 company if you've had an interview with
04:19 him so thank you so much yeah that was
04:21 really an honor to have him on the show
04:23 and that's absolutely same here like
04:25 i've i followed your work for many years
04:27 and just being able to like take a deep
04:29 dive into some of the research that you
04:32 really looking forward to our chat here
04:35 maybe we could start out by you
04:38 clarifying to some of the audience who
04:40 might not be that familiar with your
04:42 work like let's talk about exercise
04:44 science for a little bit
04:46 and maybe you can clarify like what is
04:48 really exercise science and what drew
04:50 you to it what what got you excited to
04:53 dive so much of your life into this
04:58 for me it's a great question because it
05:00 it obviously has been pretty important
05:02 for me but i was when i was young i
05:05 loved two things i loved playing sports
05:07 and i liked i was kind of a science geek
05:10 and i liked you know looking under a
05:13 microscope and going out and finding
05:15 fossils and just you know i just liked
05:17 being out in nature and understanding
05:19 and i had a little laboratory literally
05:21 under the stairs of my house that my
05:23 parents let me set up
05:26 so i lived this kind of dichotomous
05:29 world where i had my sports friends and
05:31 my nerd friends and so you know
05:35 and then you know and in school i won
05:38 the physics award and then i was a
05:40 fairly good you know american football
05:41 player so it was always this kind of but
05:43 but they just didn't fit together
05:46 uh and then i read this um
05:49 this chapter in a book uh it was by jim
05:51 fix it was the complete book of running
05:53 and there was a chapter on the science
05:54 it was called the scientists of sport
05:56 and i this book was from like i don't
05:58 know 1981 or somewhere in there but but
06:01 uh i just read that chapter i even just
06:04 by the time i looked at the title i
06:06 thought oh my goodness this just
06:08 this is me this puts it together when it
06:11 yeah and so i just thought oh man i got
06:14 to do this and and this was early days
06:16 in exercise science you know and so then
06:18 you say well what is exercise science
06:20 and and it is a kind of a integrated
06:27 various aspects of the human body and
06:29 movement which includes biomechanics it
06:32 includes psychology it includes
06:34 physiology so it it is a integrated
06:37 discipline that draws from
06:40 various you might say the the pure
06:43 disciplines the the biochemistry the
06:45 physics and so forth and then takes the
06:47 pieces that are needed to explain human
06:51 movement to explain and understand the
06:53 training the adaptation process
06:56 so you know that was that's kind of
06:58 exercise science and and in the early
07:01 the programs in the united states and
07:03 and and you know i was i got into one of
07:06 the early ones fairly early you know
07:08 they had started emerging in the late
07:09 70s i'd say and early 80s
07:12 and uh and then have slowly evolved and
07:15 there's different aspects exercise
07:17 science goes in the direction of health
07:19 goes in the direction of performance you
07:21 know so there's different emphasis areas
07:25 have done a bit of both but but my
07:29 these last 20 years has been more
07:32 uh you might say sport science more
07:36 that the focus on the the development
07:39 the performance development process
07:41 and you know a little bit looking more
07:45 the what happens once you've already
07:48 trained quite a bit you know go
07:50 going from untrained to train almost
07:52 every anything works but once you have
07:55 trained a while then things become a
07:58 tricky in terms of getting it right and
08:00 then i found that interesting it is it
08:03 is so fascinating how new this field
08:05 still is and and you just explaining
08:07 some of those timelines indeed and how
08:10 much things have like how much knowledge
08:12 is still coming to the table like over
08:14 the over the last even decade if you see
08:17 how much breakthroughs are are happening
08:19 over here so so what sort of changes
08:22 have you been seeing like since since
08:25 there were certain mentalities
08:27 and then later on things have changed
08:29 quite a bit as well and like like one of
08:35 in this area as well has been about the
08:37 training hierarchy and with the volume
08:41 the intensity and the overall
08:43 distribution that you have really
08:44 focused quite a bit of your research on
08:47 can you maybe explain a little bit
08:51 high level like this whole concept
08:54 oh where do i begin yeah i i need to
08:56 step back a little bit and say you know
08:58 there are aspects of people there have
09:00 been wonderful physiologists wonderful
09:03 people that have studied the human body
09:05 and movement going back to 100 years
09:08 so we need to i don't want to say that
09:11 started in 1980 that that would be
09:18 it's formalization as a academic
09:22 that it took a while to get there so
09:25 just so we're clear on that there were
09:26 wonderful people like av hill and that
09:28 they were doing work in the you know in
09:30 the in the 20s the early teens and the
09:33 harvard fatigue laboratory before the
09:35 world second world war so there the
09:40 the exercise science pro
09:42 movement were 50 or 30 40 to 50 years
09:44 before that uh so so just we're clear on
09:49 and then if you think about the the
09:51 growth of exercise science where was it
09:53 happening well it was happening in
09:54 universities it was happening
09:56 uh at these various programs and who
09:59 were the subjects then who were these
10:01 professors studying well they were
10:03 studying the students you could they
10:06 they could pull in students as
10:08 volunteers some volunteers
10:12 i mean i'm kidding but
10:15 but you know and and who were they well
10:17 they were physically active but
10:19 generally not specifically trained
10:22 and so they were pretty untrained
10:25 relative to what we would
10:28 say is train for a good endurance
10:31 and then they studied they started doing
10:33 those early studies of
10:36 the training process of the adaptation
10:38 process and and i mean it wasn't that
10:41 long ago i mean you can go back to
10:43 to hilazi who did the early studies on
10:48 rats and and mice and and made them run
10:51 and found that there were more
10:54 that was an adaptation now we think of
10:56 that as like well we've known that
10:57 forever but that wasn't that long ago it
11:02 you know it 45 50 years ago
11:05 now well 1967 let's say so a little over
11:11 in the scope of human knowledge that's
11:13 still pretty early days
11:16 we understood that these adaptations
11:18 were happening that the body was
11:20 literally producing more mitochondria
11:22 more capillaries and all this so
11:25 and the early studies were mostly on
11:27 these untrained people and
11:30 if you had them trained
11:32 four or five days a week at 75 percent
11:35 of their maximum heart rate 75 80 kind
11:37 of like their threshold 45 minutes a day
11:41 their their vo2 max goes up you get some
11:44 adaptations it works and you do it in
11:47 eight weeks 10 weeks you know so those
11:49 were the typical studies
11:51 that were done and and and that makes
11:55 let's face it these were students so you
11:57 got the semester schedule so you're
11:59 there are constraints
12:01 in the research you're doing that are a
12:03 function of just the realities just the
12:05 practical issues of well these students
12:07 you know if we do it in the spring
12:09 semester that's january if we can get
12:10 started by the first of february we can
12:12 be finished by the you know early may
12:14 and you know we can get it done and we
12:15 can in the master student you know it's
12:17 always we we have to think like those
12:20 that practical way yeah yeah but that
12:22 results in a body of knowledge that's
12:26 fairly short time frames and mostly
12:31 that is the big difference right yeah
12:35 well and then you extrapolate and then
12:37 you assume well here's here's threshold
12:40 training is great and you know and so
12:42 you you make some extrapolations from
12:44 those early studies
12:49 i would say early 90s
12:52 in in moving forward we start to get a
12:54 little bit of data from a few sources
12:56 from rowing from that says wait a minute
12:59 they're doing it doesn't quite look like
13:03 the best they're not training for 45
13:06 minutes a day and they're not training
13:08 at threshold they're training more time
13:10 but they're distributing the intensity
13:12 differently so we start to see but it's
13:14 kind of just small pieces it's anecdotal
13:17 and then you know late 90s 2000s you
13:19 know some more data starts rolling in
13:21 and that's when i i had moved to norway
13:26 and just started seeing things that
13:28 didn't match up with my
13:31 academic training let's let's talk about
13:33 that part because i i find that very
13:36 fascinating of kind of like
13:39 the one way of research and approaching
13:41 thing and there was a lot of no pain no
13:44 and then there was also a different type
13:46 of approach that started getting more
13:49 interest from your end and from there on
13:52 like from from other
13:55 athletes and researchers as well so
13:57 let's talk through that a bit more
14:00 my thesis has always been that
14:05 the sports in training have not emerged
14:09 with very few exceptions
14:11 they have emerged from the laboratory of
14:14 the forest and the roads and the water
14:17 where people are training
14:19 and coaches are watching and and trial
14:22 and error is happening dating back to
14:25 zatapec and to lydiard and you know you
14:28 can go back into waltermir gessler and
14:31 and harbing rudolph harbick who had the
14:33 world record in the 800 meters you know
14:37 it was experimental it was trial and
14:39 error it was understanding their
14:40 perception of what the physiology was
14:42 and and so but it was not coming from
14:45 laboratories it was coming from the
14:46 future it was coming from a a laboratory
14:48 but you could more of a the laboratory
14:52 sports training and then the scientists
14:54 were coming along and trying to explain
14:56 it you know trying to understand it and
14:58 so we need to keep that clear and make
15:00 sure and i don't want to don't anybody
15:02 should think that i figured this out
15:04 that i made up polarized training or i
15:07 made up this distribution no i just saw
15:09 it i just measured it and just said wait
15:12 a minute uh this is very different from
15:17 conventional wisdom that has emerged
15:20 from all of those studies those good
15:22 studies on students
15:24 you know i'm saying it was just a
15:27 fast forward a bit we would kind of say
15:32 what we see now is that
15:36 let's take formula one racing you know
15:39 which is maybe the most technologically
15:42 driven sport there is
15:45 300 sensors on every car you know
15:48 and and unique technological development
15:51 well formula one racing in the
15:53 technological innovation it scales down
15:58 to your toyota or your
16:00 volvo or your mercedes
16:03 in your garage five years later
16:07 there is a scalability we we learn from
16:09 that high performance environment and
16:12 and innovation emerges that is useful
16:15 but the opposite doesn't occur the
16:17 family ford the family
16:19 volvo does not tell you how to build a
16:24 nothing about it helps it's just not the
16:26 same planet so you have to think from
16:29 scratch if you're gonna build a formula
16:30 one car it's not gonna you're gonna say
16:32 well if we just power up the volvo or
16:35 power up the family station wagon it'll
16:37 function as a formula one no it doesn't
16:40 work that way well it's kind of like
16:42 that with training is that yeah if you
16:45 haven't done anything you can do just
16:47 about anything and you'll get better as
16:50 an untrained person
16:51 for at least a few months
16:54 then then it's gonna you're gonna
16:55 stagnate but if you've only ever
16:57 measured that initial phase then that's
17:01 right you're missing the point the
17:02 reality that that it stagnates that you
17:05 get a plateau effect that those same
17:07 workouts don't they're no longer optimal
17:09 for further enhancements
17:12 but you see different
17:15 information emerges when you measure
17:17 these highly high performance athletes
17:20 and that's kind of what the last i would
17:22 say last 20 years that's where we've
17:26 you know a lot of different good groups
17:29 have been really getting into those
17:32 and under trying to understand in
17:35 different ways and and then
17:37 you know i often start lectures with
17:39 this thing as you know how do i how do i
17:41 study endurance and what it starts for
17:43 me with nowadays with
17:45 just understanding what what the best
17:47 athletes actually do
17:51 knowledge that they possess that the
17:58 there is institutional knowledge there
18:02 developmental process there's
18:03 self-organizational principles these
18:05 different groups the runners the
18:08 cyclists the the rowers from different
18:10 countries and cultures
18:14 organizing themselves in similar ways in
18:17 in and we're emerging there are similar
18:20 patterns of training that are emerging
18:22 from these quite desp disparate groups
18:26 then that for me i started saying well
18:33 and those were for me very interesting
18:35 it wasn't so much i wasn't so much
18:37 interested in exactly how rowers trained
18:40 cyclists train but more
18:42 what's what the where they have in
18:46 because those those commonalities
18:48 probably give us a foundation for
18:54 what was like one of those main
18:56 conclusions indeed about the running
18:58 intensity and let's talk about that
19:00 topic for a bit because
19:02 you scaled it down to three zones and
19:07 when you were talking about the
19:09 intensity distribution there
19:12 that was the fascinating part like when
19:14 listening to your ted talk and seeing
19:16 all of the different examples that
19:17 you're using anita what you mentioned
19:19 here as well it is not just the
19:22 it is the cyclist it is the cross
19:24 country skiers like
19:26 all at a high level that have a very
19:28 even distribution across these
19:31 uh like different sports between these
19:34 different zones can you
19:36 explain a little bit further what that
19:38 it's been given these different names
19:40 polarized and 80 20 and things like that
19:44 but what the the fundamental commonality
19:47 the most consistent thing you see is
19:50 most of the training
19:52 of the best performers
19:55 independent of endurance sport if
19:56 they're if their event lasts
19:59 four or five minutes or longer
20:02 all the way out the hours and hours
20:05 they're training fairly similarly
20:07 and most of their training intensity is
20:11 in the physiology terms below that first
20:16 everyday language you would say they're
20:20 what for them is fairly easy talking
20:23 pace fairly comfortable but they're
20:27 sometimes for a long time
20:29 you know so i often think i need to be
20:31 careful calling it easy because it's
20:34 purposeful it's it's
20:36 most of us couldn't do what they do for
20:38 those hours each day but
20:40 it is not at that super huff and puff
20:46 they're not there every day they're not
20:48 there every workout they can't be
20:50 but it turns out that that volume that
20:53 frequency of training that regular
20:57 65 percent of vo2 max two two hours four
21:01 hours on the bike those two hour runs it
21:03 is very adaptive it generates
21:06 adaptations in the heart in the
21:10 you don't have to go
21:12 full full bore full speed to get those
21:17 they do some of that high intensity work
21:20 also absolutely that's that's
21:24 but how they manipulate that and whether
21:26 it's threshold or whether it's closer to
21:28 vo2 vo2max and there's more variability
21:32 in those those recipes that are can be
21:35 specific to the duration of their sport
21:38 some details but the
21:42 that the human humans can't train hard
21:45 every day you can't
21:46 it it breaks down the the human will
21:49 break down the horse will break down the
21:51 animal will break down too we we've got
21:53 data from racehorses too they can train
21:55 really hard on their hard days but they
21:57 have to also go easy on their easy days
21:59 just like humans or they break down so
22:01 there's some fundamental physiology
22:05 and then you have to take training the
22:07 training process is a yin and yang
22:11 in the sense that yes i am trying to use
22:21 protein synthesis i mean it's it's my
22:23 you know i'm trying to make more
22:24 mitochondria i'm trying to build more
22:25 capillaries i'm trying to you know at
22:27 the fundamental level we're all being
22:29 molecular biologists we're trying to
22:31 we're trying to create some g phenotypic
22:33 expression of our genes you know we're
22:38 genetic potential in a different
22:40 direction towards more endurance or more
22:44 strength or whatever depending on how
22:45 we're training and so
22:48 that's the one side but the other side
22:51 of the puzzle is or the coin is
22:55 this training is stressful
22:58 it causes stress it it it challenges the
23:01 body it it disturbs homeostasis it it
23:04 does damage muscles there's damage to
23:07 muscles there's immune system challenges
23:10 there's inflammation so then you start
23:13 that suggests that training becomes over
23:16 time you've got to balance these
23:20 just like the yen and the yang you've
23:21 got to find the right all you know it's
23:24 an opt it becomes an optimization
23:26 problem it's not a maximization problem
23:29 and those are very different if you know
23:31 what i mean you know it maximize just
23:33 means just well if i were to just train
23:35 harder i'd get better harder better
23:37 harder better harder harder better
23:39 better it doesn't work that way
23:42 uh you have to you can maximize
23:44 maximization doesn't work it's
23:46 optimization and then you now you're
23:48 starting to say okay how do i find a
23:51 rhythm of signal recovery adaptation and
23:55 that's what we're seeing and the data is
23:57 coming in now we're getting more
23:59 mechanistic explanations for a lot of
24:02 both on on the signaling side and all on
24:04 the stress side that
24:06 say okay wow wow that actually makes
24:11 this this pattern is emerging this kind
24:13 of you know 80 20 or easy hard or you
24:17 know i want to be careful with my
24:18 terminology but but um
24:21 we i think there is a lot of progress
24:23 being made explaining
24:25 why the athletes have evolved in that
24:30 eye-opening indeed to look at it from
24:33 that perspective i think when we see
24:36 sometimes we analyze elite athletes and
24:39 they have a lot of time available to
24:42 train to have more time to rest and to
24:46 when we then look at the recreational
24:48 runner who has a full-time job family
24:51 life a lot of other responsibilities
24:54 outside of athletic performance
24:57 sometimes there are some of these
24:59 additional layers that get involved as
25:01 well so i'm curious does the
25:04 in in your research of what you have
25:06 shown this 80 20 approach does that work
25:08 as well for the elite athlete as for the
25:11 recreational runner you're gonna the
25:13 answer i'm gonna give you is
25:15 in some ways it works even better
25:17 yeah and that's weird i know but they're
25:20 out because here and here's what i mean
25:22 if you are a high performance athlete
25:24 and you're pushing the very limits of of
25:26 what you can handle it almost forces you
25:29 into a certain pattern you can't train
25:32 25 hours a week and at the same time go
25:35 hard every day so the body will kind of
25:37 it'll force you into a certain to a
25:39 certain degree into a pattern but if
25:41 you're training four days a week or five
25:43 days a week and say eight hours a week
25:46 well yeah you can you know you can
25:52 temptation to go medium hard every day
25:55 and we see that so often happening right
25:57 like a lot of spending time in that in
26:00 that yellow zone in between no man's
26:02 land not not slow enough not hard enough
26:05 and i get it i mean i i it's easy to
26:09 fall into it i i i cycle on this virtual
26:14 i mean a zwift i'm sorry zwift not zoom
26:19 i zoom around on zwift and and uh yeah
26:23 there it's easy to start what we call
26:25 chasing the squirrels you know there's
26:27 just you know oh that guy he he cycled
26:30 past me i think i'll catch up with him
26:31 and you know and we'll maybe he just
26:33 thinks he's faster than me well i'll
26:34 show him and so you just
26:36 you just fall into this our egos get us
26:40 and uh whereas what i always say is one
26:43 of the things we see with great
26:45 endurance athletes like kipchoge
26:49 intensity discipline and their ego
26:55 robust enough to not be too concerned
26:58 with some silly teenage runner that runs
27:03 you know because kip yoga knows what
27:06 right and he's not gonna he's not gonna
27:09 chase that squirrel
27:11 but if that guy comes back on a day when
27:14 kipchoge is doing one of his tough runs
27:16 well it's a different ball game
27:18 you know what i mean come come back
27:24 but recreational athletes age groupers
27:27 the most common training mistake they
27:29 will make is that regression towards the
27:32 mean this medium hard intensity fairly
27:35 short workouts fairly high intensity
27:38 repetitive and monotonous monotone a
27:41 monotone load and they stagnate right
27:46 with my hand over my heart i cannot tell
27:51 i can't even count how many
27:54 emails and text messages and twitter
27:57 messages i have received from people who
28:00 have said my goodness
28:03 what a difference this makes
28:05 you know i have finally learned how to
28:09 ease up on on my easy days and figured
28:12 out what easy actually means
28:15 and and he's a and i've even had people
28:17 say you know what my maximum heart rate
28:19 is 10 beats higher now i have been
28:21 chronically over trained you know it's a
28:25 my only explanation is i've been
28:26 chronically over trained for 10 years
28:28 because my heart rate has gone up 10
28:30 beats since i trained i changed the way
28:32 i trained so i i it's anecdote but good
28:36 grief i've had so much of it from
28:38 regular folks who have experienced
28:42 new performance records in their 50s
28:45 you know a guy he sends me a message he
28:47 said i set a new pb in the marathon at
28:50 57. it just shows you how badly i was
28:53 training in in my 30s you know
28:56 but that that must be quite rewarding
28:59 too because i see like even on our
29:01 channel we talk quite a bit about the
29:03 importance of low intensity running and
29:05 really taking the time to develop that
29:07 aerobic base and like you're mentioning
29:09 too these examples of athletes who are
29:13 coming back after run i feel like they
29:15 could do it again or they feel like
29:16 they're not dying on the couch on a
29:18 saturday afternoon feeling like they're
29:20 so tired and fatigued like it's it's an
29:22 entire different approach again a very
29:24 eye opening for for quite some people
29:26 too we've never experienced that
29:29 absolutely and i and i think back the
29:31 way i trained when i started cycling i
29:33 went oh my goodness i've thought uh you
29:34 know what i i bet i i don't think i ever
29:37 even considered easy days
29:41 i don't think that was even a term you
29:43 know so oh absolutely
29:45 and so that that's the easy part that we
29:50 but then there's the hard part too
29:53 when i think about let's say 10 years
29:55 ago i got really into running but when i
29:57 think back about those earlier days
30:00 there was often that
30:02 if i would do interval sessions they
30:03 would be so brutal heart that i would
30:06 absolutely hate it i would be huffing
30:08 and puffing to the point that i would go
30:10 to the absolute red red line and it
30:13 would just be quite miserable
30:16 you're often talking as well about not
30:19 going too hard on the hard days like
30:21 obviously being able to push yourself
30:23 but not pushing to an extent that it's
30:25 going to set yourself back
30:27 he talked through that a bit yeah
30:29 and in that regard the term polarized
30:32 training is probably an inappropriate
30:34 term because it if it if it makes people
30:36 think that easy's easy and hard is like
30:39 even harder then that's a mis that that
30:42 misrepresents the reality because
30:45 uh i think what we've learned and i want
30:48 to be careful using this term but the
30:51 training is about finding a sustainable
30:58 pattern of of loading
31:01 you know my daughter exemplifies this is
31:04 when we when i would tell her you know
31:06 okay we're gonna do
31:08 you're gonna do three times eight
31:09 minutes or four times eight minutes on
31:10 the treadmill and and that
31:15 you know we've shown that usually if you
31:18 give this prescription
31:20 that the prescription is like an
31:21 equation that the athlete solves and the
31:24 four times eight minute prescription
31:25 with two minute recovery
31:27 puts them at about zone four in that
31:30 five zone model you know ninety eighty
31:33 it starts about eighty seven percent of
31:34 ultimax and then it starts drifting up
31:36 and they're ending up at 92 or so you
31:38 know so they're working hard but they're
31:43 so deep into the well you know they're
31:44 not at 12 millimeter lactate they're
31:46 like at eight or nine and it and it's
31:48 it's it's manageable
31:50 well and that that works on average so
31:53 the prescription generally works but my
31:55 daughter was just so darn i don't know
31:58 competitive with herself
32:00 that every interval session and and she
32:03 was dealing with her own demons and so
32:06 an eating disorder and stuff where we've
32:08 been open about that and so every darn
32:11 interval session was a for her it was a
32:14 test of her toughness
32:18 wasn't sustainable and so eventually i
32:20 had to say well i'm sorry but at four
32:22 times eight when i tell you you're going
32:23 too hard you're just blowing yourself up
32:26 and you're not recovering fast enough
32:28 and so we're you're kind of stagnating
32:31 because these hard sessions are just a
32:32 bit too hard so i'm putting the brakes
32:34 on you and now i'm gonna actually not
32:36 only just say four times eight at best
32:38 it's at you know your best pace i'm i'm
32:41 not going to say best pace i'm going to
32:45 and and so you specific specifically
32:47 give her a heart rate like this is your
32:49 highest number yeah that's right try not
32:51 to go over that or pulled it back and
32:53 then everything got better
32:55 and then she set a pr you know she
32:57 wanted she pr her half marathon and you
33:00 know so then it she fell into rhythm
33:05 and i remember her using the term she
33:08 i'm in this i feel the flow of my
33:13 and and and kipchoge your interview he
33:16 says this he says i
33:19 want to still be smiling when i finish
33:23 so that i can wake up and train the next
33:26 i can't remember the exact quote but i
33:28 wrote it down as best i could and i
33:30 thought oh yeah what a fantastic you
33:34 exemplification of that property you
33:36 know he he understands that it's not the
33:39 epic workout it is the the body of work
33:43 that he is doing in preparation and so
33:46 he has this beautiful innate
33:48 understanding and he uses the terminol i
33:51 want to still be smiling when i finish
33:52 the interval that was such a good
33:55 indicator yeah yeah what a great analogy
33:58 i was like oh man you're my hero you
34:00 know you just you've taught me so much
34:01 you know and so and and and it it jives
34:06 it it matches up with what we've seen
34:08 from the best you know in different
34:10 sports uh now don't get me wrong there's
34:13 times when you're you know and people
34:14 and racing like for example in cross
34:16 country skiing man when they're when
34:17 they're charging that hill they are
34:19 pushing the upper limits of what they
34:21 can that's when that they're hitting
34:23 very close to vo2 max at the top of
34:25 those hills and they're recovering on
34:26 the fly so don't get me wrong you know
34:29 i'm not saying that these people are not
34:30 going hard in races but it turns out you
34:33 don't have to you don't have to go that
34:35 hard every day in in training with the
34:37 high intensity sessions
34:39 you're building the cake
34:40 but racing is eating the cake
34:43 as we say in norway if that makes sense
34:46 and you got to balance that if you eat
34:47 the cake too much then you're going to
34:52 so so that's that's part of this and and
34:55 you know i use a lot of kind of
34:58 slang or folk language but there's
35:00 underlying physiology there there's
35:02 underlying understanding of the
35:03 autonomic nervous system the immune
35:05 system and so forth
35:07 inflammatory processes we're getting our
35:09 hands our head around some of this that
35:11 that it is explaining
35:13 some of these these behaviors so uh the
35:17 science is catching up
35:21 trial and error experience of the high
35:24 performance environments yeah
35:27 awesome um on your youtube channel and
35:30 to anyone listening i highly recommend
35:32 checking out dr seiler's youtube channel
35:36 there are many great detailed videos on
35:38 there you also have a few videos where
35:40 you and your daughter cyran
35:42 talk through um some of her training and
35:46 i would love to talk about that a little
35:48 bit further as far as for
35:51 when you're coaching her and when you're
35:55 honestly you do work on certain training
35:58 schedules or certain guidelines of
36:05 suggest her to follow these schedules
36:07 and how much does she really adjust it
36:10 on a day to day based on how she feels
36:12 or how things are progressing
36:15 well you know my daughter
36:17 again with all would be full disclosure
36:20 it's been a it's been a special case in
36:22 the sense that she was a dancer for 10
36:25 years she at the end of her dance career
36:27 developed an eating disorder which i
36:29 never even contemplated could happen but
36:32 she was at a she was studying away from
36:35 home she was at a top sports high school
36:37 and and it happened and
36:40 part of the pathway back to health for
36:44 went through for her running became a
36:49 you know she wanted to because she just
36:52 liked training and so i had i said all
36:55 right i'll be your coach
36:56 and and she's the only athlete i coached
36:59 beca you know and i i it was like part
37:02 coach part dad every day
37:04 the dad who's trying to help his
37:06 daughter recover keep her alive and move
37:09 her towards health and the coach who's
37:11 trying to carefully help her
37:16 achieve the goals that she has because
37:18 she's very competitive and so i was
37:20 balancing these things
37:29 stress you know and and
37:31 concern for my daughter
37:34 and she it took her a long time to fully
37:37 recover and she has fully recovered and
37:39 i'm so happy but it's years five years
37:42 five and a half six years
37:45 i i have to the reason i say that is
37:48 because obviously that colors that dick
37:51 had something to do with the way i yeah
37:54 with her you know and and in my
37:57 conservative nature with her and that
37:59 and and also that she is
38:02 she's my daughter she's stubborn and and
38:05 like many athletes you know she and
38:07 she's even said many times she said papa
38:11 for me to find my limits i got to go
38:13 across i got to go over them and then i
38:17 and so she's she's made pretty much
38:20 every mistake you can make
38:22 as an endurance athlete
38:24 but at least we've been we've been
38:27 intellectually and tuned in to say yep
38:29 okay now we see what happens when those
38:32 you know those interval sessions get too
38:34 hard now we see what happens you know so
38:37 so we've it's been learning for her
38:44 and then combining i've had some numbers
38:46 so i've looked at her heart rate and
38:48 things and she has a sense an innate
38:51 sense of feel and and so she's kind of
38:54 like a kenyan you know she just
38:57 feels and she said probably i wish i
38:58 could just move to africa you know
39:02 that kind of atmosphere she said i would
39:05 love to train with the the kenyans you
39:06 know how are you so
39:10 so it's kind of been we've tried to be
39:12 complimentary i said well i like a few
39:14 numbers you know so so we kind of let's
39:17 find a balance yeah
39:19 yeah yeah you know and so she doodles on
39:21 her daily training diary and i look at
39:24 some of the polar data heart rate data
39:26 and whatever and we come together around
39:30 where are we right now where is my her
39:32 body and what needs to happen and and so
39:38 did not tell me the truth about her how
39:43 then things went shitty just pardoned my
39:46 french but but if but if her eating
39:48 disorder was with her that voice in her
39:51 head was preventing her from being
39:58 then that was just a recipe for for
40:00 further disaster but when the you know
40:03 when she's able to say papa you know
40:05 what i'm just not i'm having these
40:07 voices that things are not working i
40:08 need help then things went well we
40:11 figured it out together
40:15 so i might i'm just trying to say my
40:17 daughter is not like exemplary of all
40:19 the of perfection and athletics but
40:22 she's learned a lot i've learned a lot
40:23 from that process and i think
40:26 all good coach athlete relationships
40:28 that there is there has to be trust
40:30 there has to be good communication
40:32 and at whatever level that that's what
40:35 it starts with and if you got that then
40:37 a lot of things will fall into place
40:44 female athletes male athletes are they
40:49 there there are some some differences
40:52 in general out generalities that can be
40:55 worth understanding
40:58 you know the big the big picture
40:59 physiology is the same
41:01 yeah but a bit of the personality
41:03 psychology issues the tendencies maybe
41:06 are a bit different
41:08 long-term experience working with
41:10 different groups and so
41:12 um and not just my daughter but a lot of
41:14 different groups so these are man
41:16 coaching is is amazingly
41:19 wonderful and and very challenging very
41:22 absolutely you know i don't know i don't
41:24 know which is harder being a dad or
41:25 being a coach but they're pretty darn
41:27 they're both especially when you combine
41:29 them too like yesterday i went to the
41:31 running track with my eight-year-old and
41:33 we're still going through the concept of
41:35 slowing down on some of your runs and
41:37 like when my eight-year-old is starting
41:39 to get it my five-year-old only thinks
41:41 like she can sprint for 10 seconds so
41:43 that's basically what she can maintain
41:45 it is yeah it's well but and that's
41:48 that's very normal you know young
41:49 children they don't have much of an
41:51 aerobic system so it's just it's just
41:54 i love it yeah sprint and recover sprint
41:56 recover so there's no point in you're
41:58 not going to overcome that just they
42:00 just have to have fun but that's the way
42:02 their body works and then slowly it it
42:05 changes over time you know yeah and and
42:08 that that i think too like the whole
42:09 part of like going out and playing
42:11 instead of like trying to make it a
42:13 workout or just going to play
42:15 and then you see yeah they get really
42:16 excited about it and as soon as you
42:18 mention the word running it's like i
42:19 don't want to go running but i do want
42:20 to go playing so yeah let's go playing
42:23 which involves a lot of running but you
42:25 tricked them you know
42:28 yeah so i i'm a big i don't believe in i
42:30 i just don't see the point of a lot of
42:33 organized sport for five and
42:35 six-year-olds i see a lot of but i see a
42:37 lot of value in just super fun play yeah
42:41 that's how the human that's how human
42:43 brain and human body were designed by
42:45 nature to you know they animals play and
42:48 they play themselves into shape
42:52 the tiger the lion the young cubs what
42:54 are they doing they play they play
42:56 wrestle the baby bears wrestle with each
42:59 other and it's play but
43:01 they are literally training
43:05 the time when it will be life and death
43:07 yeah and they and they just don't know
43:08 it but it's but the play is preparing
43:11 them and i and i think that's just
43:13 that's the way it should be with sports
43:17 early the early exposure to huma to
43:21 it's on the kids terms and it's play
43:24 you know and if you do that well with
43:26 your kids then they will want to do more
43:28 they'll want to play more
43:30 and then eventually they'll say you know
43:31 i'd kind of like this this play to be a
43:33 bit more systematic you know and so then
43:36 then we could start calling it training
43:37 you know yeah yeah i thought you made
43:40 such a good point earlier when you
43:41 talked about the importance of
43:44 getting your your health right for
43:46 maximizing and optimizing performance
43:49 and this is something you guys talked
43:51 in the analysis of molycidols video as
43:54 well you have a really really good video
43:56 on your youtube channel where you break
43:57 down moly cider olympic performance
44:01 earned bronze in tokyo
44:04 and that was an exceptional performance
44:07 obviously so it was a really nice
44:08 detailed breakdown but one of the things
44:10 that came out of that video too was
44:13 she experienced her fair share of
44:15 injuries in the past he has had her
44:18 where she worked very closely with her
44:20 coach to first get back into health get
44:23 get that under control before starting
44:25 to build volume before starting to add
44:30 add a little bit more insights from what
44:32 you're seeing from the perspective of
44:35 like yeah we can't keep pushing pushing
44:37 pushing we have to keep the the health
44:40 element under control as well and it's
44:41 that fine line in between
44:44 yeah in that particular you know that
44:46 was my daughter i got to give her credit
44:48 she's the one that did that analysis
44:50 she's the one that and then she's the
44:52 one that connected to molly's idol
44:54 because there they had these
44:55 commonalities in terms of societal had
44:57 dealt with eating disorders she had she
45:00 had had multiple stress fractures you
45:02 know she had a tough some tough side
45:04 effects of the eating disorder uh that
45:07 she had to get under control so she was
45:10 a wonderful role model for my daughter
45:12 and my daughter is very good at going
45:15 analyzing so i just said look let's this
45:18 needs to we got to do something with
45:20 this and let me help you so let's make a
45:21 video so that's kind of but that was her
45:24 that was her not me um
45:26 and and it and it just molly's idol
45:29 resonated for her and helped her it
45:33 to be inspired and see that yeah this
45:35 can go the right way you know and so
45:38 i think it's good to you know it's one
45:40 one of the wonderful things about these
45:42 different outlets social media is that
45:44 it can be helpful to find athletes that
45:47 have been through these some of these
45:49 struggles and come out on the other side
45:53 and so that's that's what that was about
45:56 and i think it really uh
45:58 you know helped in and i i think it
46:00 helped my daughter realize and i tried
46:02 to tell her i said look you have
46:03 something to share you don't have to be
46:04 a world-class athlete
46:07 have a voice that can help people
46:10 and so you know because yeah she said
46:12 i'm you know i'm not that good a runner
46:14 nobody's going to listen to me
46:15 and i said well don't be so sure you
46:17 know so that's the and i and i would say
46:19 that to others is you know it's if if
46:21 you're able to help people if you've
46:23 been through things then you can help
46:24 them you don't have to be world champion
46:27 i'm not a world champion and you're not
46:28 either but we can share we can
46:34 uh the balance in in their training and
46:37 and getting back to your issue in norway
46:39 norwegian there's this word called it's
46:42 called overscoot overshoot
46:45 and and it's a term that means energy
46:47 you know you have to have this overshoot
46:50 you have to have energy to do the tough
46:53 things to do sports to to push your body
46:56 and if you don't have health
46:58 as a platform then you don't have that
47:01 overshoot that extra energy to put into
47:08 developing your body
47:10 in a different way in a in a in a
47:13 demanding way and the body is quite
47:21 if there are problems
47:23 if this body senses energy
47:27 inflammation if it senses there is an
47:29 invader that there's an infection
47:32 then it will dedicate resources to those
47:37 needs of survival and it will turn off
47:42 adaptation it will not absorb training
47:45 it will make this it will make choices
47:48 that go in a direction of a kind of a
47:50 physiological maslow's hierarchy
47:53 if you understand and it will say uh-uh
47:56 you don't i'm not gonna i'm not gonna
47:58 build hemoglobin at altitude because
48:01 you you have an infection that's a
48:04 priority here that's i'm the body will
48:07 prioritize energy resources towards that
48:12 and then the training is wasted
48:16 your body is making decisions when my
48:18 daughter was in an imbalance an
48:21 energetic imbalance her body's not
48:25 the the training adaptations at the same
48:27 level it's just not going to happen and
48:29 so this is this is hell no health no
48:34 and that sounds like this kind of this
48:35 little philosophical mantra but it's
48:38 actually deeply embedded in biology and
48:41 the human biology you know and the
48:44 animal world is brutal in that regard
48:46 the worst example and the best example i
48:49 can give you when i was a master's
48:52 my research was involved rats i was
48:56 going to do this study where i was going
48:58 to have one group of rats do interval
48:59 training another group of rats was going
49:01 to run steady state and a third group of
49:04 rats were going to be the couch potatoes
49:05 that stayed in their cages you know
49:07 but to get the rats i had to breed
49:11 male and female adults and i had to make
49:15 wine was the right temperature and you
49:16 know in the room was the right
49:18 and and and achieved some litters of
49:21 rats and and this was in i don't know
49:24 november december and it was anyway so i
49:27 to the the lab or to the rat to the
49:30 facility one morning early seven o'clock
49:33 in the morning and i'm cleaning doing my
49:35 usual thing and my the mothers have had
49:37 pups and they're in they are eating
49:41 yes i've heard of that they are eating
49:44 the babies and i was like what the heck
49:47 kind of crazy freak show have i got
49:52 the tails of their babies are sticking
49:56 and i and and yeah and so then i talked
49:59 to people and they said yeah well
50:00 apparently that maybe the temperature in
50:02 the room was a bit too cold or something
50:04 the the mother rat has her instincts
50:09 the situation is not good
50:11 get rid of this litter
50:14 yeah and i was like wow
50:16 this is brutal this is brutal nature you
50:20 know this doesn't i wouldn't you
50:22 couldn't even put this on a nature show
50:24 it's so brutal you know and so i had to
50:27 start from scratch and redo it and and
50:29 finally got the litters but but it was
50:31 such a good example of this this
50:34 fundamental issue which is that our
50:37 bodies are in you know we have we don't
50:40 eat our young but we still have this
50:45 health first that my body has to be in a
50:47 state that is receptive for the stress
50:50 of training or the adaptations don't
50:54 because of the allocation of resources
50:57 uh it's not just good philosophy it's
51:03 and in practice for example in norway
51:07 we do they do the athletes do a lot of
51:09 uh altitude training you know because
51:11 part in part some of the events are at
51:13 moderate altitude but also just
51:15 outstanding is part of the solute part
51:17 of the recipe you know
51:19 and but they just have found that you
51:22 know if they have so much as a toothache
51:25 before when before they go up they just
51:27 won't go up to camp they just say nope
51:30 yeah so it's once again about the
51:32 hierarchy you have the basic under
51:34 control first before you've got an
51:36 infection in your body we're not sending
51:39 you up to altitude because it won't
51:41 happen for you all the the best case
51:44 scenario is nothing and worst case
51:46 scenario you get worse
51:49 those are just like basic rules that are
51:51 in the in the system for the norwegian
51:54 athletes is is you know have you had an
51:56 infection are you do you have the
51:58 sniffles anything if you do then we're
52:01 probably not going to send you up to
52:02 camp you know those are so this is that
52:05 that philosophy and practice or that
52:07 issue in practice health first and then
52:10 you're going to be receptive to training
52:12 and i see it even in the in in our own
52:15 running groups and coaching like working
52:17 with a few different runners
52:19 the topic of stress has come up quite a
52:21 bit especially in the last two years
52:26 saying like their stress levels were to
52:27 an extent that they wouldn't even feel
52:29 like doing higher intensity training we
52:31 often talked about like let's push out
52:33 some of these races and let's just go to
52:35 a maintenance mode and just going out
52:37 there for overall health and for
52:39 relaxation and feeling good
52:41 versus putting pedal to the metal
52:43 especially when when those stress levels
52:45 are at very high levels so
52:47 absolutely and uh yeah i was having that
52:50 same conversation with my daughter you
52:52 know because she's a student at a
52:54 university and and all this is the tough
52:56 exam period and there's even research
52:59 that shows that that scholarship
53:01 athletes in the united states they did a
53:03 study where they they could just show
53:05 that when they were in the exam period
53:07 they were less responsive to training
53:10 they didn't get the same adaptation so
53:14 you know this generalizable
53:16 state that we call stress that it the
53:20 body the human evolution is is doesn't
53:24 differentiate the source of these
53:27 threats because you can think of it as
53:30 there is a threat on our homeostasis
53:34 a threat of an exam or a threat of a
53:36 boyfriend leaving me or the threat of a
53:40 the basic autonomic nervous system
53:43 response is the same
53:46 the stress bucket gets filled
53:49 but the source of you know the different
53:52 bottles the different sources can be
53:54 different but it's the same bucket
54:01 this this is something that we have to
54:03 be clear about and this is where yeah
54:05 where you were going back to the
54:07 the fact that age groupers regular
54:10 people they got real jobs they've got
54:12 kids at home they've got all of these
54:14 realities yeah in many ways their
54:17 training situation is more difficult
54:20 than the high performance triathlete
54:23 that's sponsored by
54:25 such and such and they're able to train
54:27 every day and sleep sleep at noon you
54:30 know how to take a nap and you know what
54:31 i'm saying that's a different reality
54:33 they've earned the right to do that with
54:35 their talent and their efforts but it
54:38 once they get there they actually have
54:40 an e in some ways an easier situation or
54:43 a more conducive situation to
54:46 to performance than
54:49 the 35 year old mom with two kids that
54:53 also is training for a triathlon
54:56 yeah and and i see it around me too some
54:58 like some of my friends who are indeed
55:02 parents of two kids who have a full-time
55:04 job we're still trying to go out at 20
55:07 25 sometimes 30 hours a week and it's at
55:10 that point it becomes a fine line with
55:12 how much can you sleep and how much can
55:14 you train too because i also see
55:15 athletes making that mistake where sleep
55:18 gets compromised whereas a lot of
55:20 training benefits come from that part
55:21 again so yeah it's it's all about that
55:23 in that fine line there so
55:25 you know and and people's everybody has
55:28 their own motivation and so i have great
55:30 respect for that but i do think
55:33 sometimes we do we have to step back and
55:35 say what's my motivation here yeah you
55:37 know what's left am i am i operating
55:39 from a position of health and happiness
55:41 am i able to smile at the end of these
55:44 workouts you know as my hero kipchoge
55:47 would say uh or am i fi am i finding
55:51 myself i'm putting myself on this
55:54 this running wheel you know
55:58 i don't know feeling some
56:00 pressure to to perform for the rest of
56:03 the world or for my office mates or
56:05 whatever what is my motivation here and
56:08 and so i i do think we our modern
56:10 society and social media and that we get
56:15 things that aren't very healthy you know
56:17 and so i i guess everyone so i just want
56:19 to say hey are you having fun
56:22 i'm so i'm so glad you bring that up
56:25 because that that has really become a
56:29 throughout different guests that i've
56:30 had on the podcast indeed the very
56:33 important part of having fun and joy in
56:35 your workouts for the longevity in the
56:38 sport it's not what are you gonna be
56:40 able to do in two months but where are
56:42 you gonna be in two years in five years
56:47 lately in the last year or so i've been
56:48 asking often in lectures i asked the
56:50 question how many workouts will you do
56:52 this year or will your athlete do this
56:54 year put a number on it you know they
56:56 just of thinking you know i said what's
56:58 going to be 300 400 maybe even 500
57:03 workouts that you're going to do this
57:04 year if you're a top high performance
57:05 athlete but if you're an age grouper 300
57:07 is not a unreasonable number uh 300
57:11 workouts you will do in this year that's
57:13 5 trillion five times a week five six
57:17 now think about it what would be a
57:19 really really good improvement for you
57:25 you know triathlon olympic distance time
57:28 or whatever would fi would a five
57:30 percent improvement be good oh my
57:32 goodness would be fantastic right i
57:34 think if you improve five percent and
57:36 time that is huge that in fact it's it's
57:39 pretty much unrealistic right
57:42 three percent two percent one percent
57:44 you know but let's say five percent just
57:46 for fun all right now
57:48 i want you to do the math and divide
57:55 divide 0.05 by 300. what do you get well
57:59 you get i can't tell you exactly but you
58:01 get a tiny tiny number and it's not a
58:04 number that you can
58:06 you know you're not going to be able to
58:08 see it so it should tell us something
58:11 that these epic workouts the individual
58:13 workout is not what
58:16 leads to performance gains it's the sum
58:23 the the sustainability of the process
58:27 it is being healthy and staying healthy
58:29 and being able to do the 300 workouts
58:32 being able to do the 400 or 500 if
58:36 uh bloomin felt you know or gustav eden
58:40 the the guy who won you know he he
58:42 debuts with a record in the try in the
58:45 iron man you know it's sustainable it's
58:48 the the daily grind it's the finding
58:50 that balance and having the health to do
58:53 all that work that builds up to
58:56 being able to perform on race day so
58:59 it's just a different a bit of a mindset
59:02 issue is let's let's back up let's zoom
59:07 and no don't get so zoomed in on this
59:10 particular workout that's we have a
59:12 tendency to say well oh should i do
59:15 should i do like oh six times four or
59:18 should i do four times six should the
59:20 rest enter will be 90 seconds or should
59:22 it be 120 seconds or and i ha
59:25 i tell people i said look guys it ain't
59:26 that complicated and the your muscle
59:30 sophisticated in terms of their precise
59:33 evaluation of of your the execution you
59:36 know it's it's pretty simple do the work
59:39 you know and get some good get some high
59:41 intensity work in and
59:44 collect some minutes and you know and it
59:46 can be 30 minutes it'd be 88 or 92 you
59:50 approximations end up being close enough
59:55 i i just find that a lot of people are
59:57 getting too wrapped up in
01:00:00 details that turn out to not be as
01:00:03 important as bigger picture issues and
01:00:05 they forget the bigger picture because
01:00:08 zoomed in so narrowly into the specific
01:00:12 structure of the epic workout that
01:00:15 they're going to do you know
01:00:19 that's me on my preacher's school right
01:00:21 now you know no i love it i i couldn't
01:00:24 agree more with you right there so
01:00:25 that's that's very well said i have a
01:00:28 few last questions here i do want to be
01:00:29 respectful of your time so
01:00:32 way back in the day when heart rate
01:00:34 monitors first came out it was like
01:00:37 these big bulky machines and it was more
01:00:39 for like a doctor office or it was only
01:00:41 for like the researchers
01:00:43 now it has come a long way a lot of
01:00:45 people have their own chest heart rate
01:00:46 monitor strap or they have it on the
01:00:48 optical or they have it like there's a
01:00:50 lot more tools available right now we're
01:00:52 starting minus mine is this it's even
01:00:57 is that is that the armband yeah i love
01:00:59 it i've been using it which one is that
01:01:01 one this is the polar oh1 yeah free free
01:01:06 i love it you know i'm not nobody pays
01:01:09 me anything but anyway this my daughter
01:01:11 and i both use this nice i use it on my
01:01:13 forearm and she uses on her bicep
01:01:18 we're now also seeing like from the aura
01:01:20 ring with the sleep tracking we see the
01:01:23 permanent blood glucose meter and all of
01:01:26 these kind of things
01:01:27 it has gone a long way are there any
01:01:30 additional like obviously it used to be
01:01:32 research very research driven now
01:01:34 there's a lot more data like bigger data
01:01:38 available out there
01:01:40 i know in your twitter sometimes you you
01:01:42 do run some of those group
01:01:44 initiatives where it almost like you're
01:01:46 collecting back some of this data which
01:01:48 has been really fascinating to follow
01:01:50 actually are there some things in some
01:01:54 tracking that excite you like what's
01:01:56 happening now or what's what's going to
01:01:58 be coming here in the next three to five
01:02:00 the the issue that i've been fascinated
01:02:03 with in the last year is uh breathing
01:02:08 yeah strangely enough uh you know
01:02:13 as a as a group from the uk they wrote
01:02:15 an article about it was the kind of the
01:02:18 forgotten vital sign or whatever you
01:02:21 and if you if you're unconscious you've
01:02:24 been injured and you are wheeled into a
01:02:26 hospital the first two things that the
01:02:28 doctors or nurses will evaluate is is
01:02:32 your heart beating are you breathing and
01:02:34 then more specifically what's your heart
01:02:36 rate what's your breathing rate right
01:02:39 and that has extremely you know a lot of
01:02:42 value for them in making some initial
01:02:47 the state of your body
01:02:49 these are called vital signs
01:02:52 in sports we have
01:02:55 discovered decades ago the the heart
01:02:57 rate as a window into
01:03:00 the human physiology into
01:03:05 you know what what intensity am i
01:03:07 working at relative to my max and it's a
01:03:09 powerful tool and and we've done a great
01:03:12 making that accessible
01:03:14 to to people and calib pretty good job
01:03:17 at calibrating it and so forth
01:03:23 there are situations there are movement
01:03:25 situations training situations where
01:03:27 heart rate doesn't tell you everything
01:03:28 you'd like to know for example during
01:03:31 during interval training during these
01:03:32 you know different kinds of stochastic
01:03:34 work with lots of variations in tempo
01:03:37 and that heart rate kind of may find a
01:03:40 middle zone that's reflective of the
01:03:42 overall oxygen demand but your brain is
01:03:45 saying yeah but this is harder than that
01:03:47 right because those peaks are costing me
01:03:50 you know well if we measure your
01:03:54 even something as simple as your
01:03:56 breathing rate just
01:03:58 what what breathing frequency are you at
01:04:01 it tracks with the realities that you're
01:04:05 facing in terms of getting that work
01:04:06 done of mobilizing maintaining that pace
01:04:09 in those repeats or in those intervals
01:04:12 even better than heart rate
01:04:15 and that's one of the things that's
01:04:16 fascinated me that i've because i was
01:04:19 heart rate you know i was i've developed
01:04:21 some tools i've spoken a lot about
01:04:23 cardiac drift about internal workload
01:04:25 versus external workload how these inter
01:04:28 you know there's no such thing as a
01:04:29 steady state during training and that
01:04:32 you can make we can measure this kind of
01:04:35 internal workload shift relative to the
01:04:37 external does that make sense yeah yeah
01:04:40 yeah and and it works and it's important
01:04:43 and it's useful and it tells us that
01:04:44 that the the first hour of a two hour
01:04:47 run is not the same as the second hour
01:04:49 the second hour is harder even though
01:04:51 the pace is the same you can't equate
01:04:55 because they are your efficiency things
01:04:58 are breaking down in your body you are
01:05:00 it's costing more to do that same work
01:05:02 whether it's cycling or rowing or
01:05:03 swimming or running
01:05:05 and so we have to be cognizant of that
01:05:07 and we have to understand that intensity
01:05:10 has no meaning without under without
01:05:12 putting a duration to it
01:05:14 does that make sense yeah absolutely
01:05:15 it's a unidimensional construct that
01:05:18 only has meaning when we get we add
01:05:21 duration you know
01:05:23 right i can hold
01:05:25 any pace up to 1 300 watts for a second
01:05:30 uh but but all right
01:05:33 yeah but already after 10 seconds i've
01:05:36 lost a lot of you know and after two
01:05:37 minutes it's a dif so it only these
01:05:40 power values and pace values only have
01:05:43 meaning when i attach a duration to them
01:05:46 right and they and it's we're not in a
01:05:48 steady state heart rate reflects some of
01:05:50 that but in that very high intensity
01:05:53 regime and the stochastic regime where
01:05:55 you're doing lots of this you know up
01:05:57 and down cross-country and so
01:06:01 tells us some things
01:06:02 and you know that if you've raced you
01:06:04 know you've you can hear your
01:06:06 competition how are they breathing
01:06:09 you know and you make and there's famous
01:06:11 examples of athletes that have kind of
01:06:13 come up to the side of an athlete you
01:06:14 know and and can tell they're breathing
01:06:16 hard and then they attack you know or or
01:06:19 they hide they try to hide the fact that
01:06:22 you know so they're
01:06:24 trying to hold their breath for as as
01:06:26 they run up you know so
01:06:28 we know it instinctively that breathing
01:06:31 hell is a truth teller right
01:06:35 uh long story short we're doing we're
01:06:37 really getting into the weeds and trying
01:06:39 to understand breathing and what it can
01:06:41 tell us and whether we can use it as a
01:06:44 we can scale breathing relative in the
01:06:46 same way we can do with heart rate
01:06:48 reserve where you take maximum heart
01:06:49 rate versus resting heart rate and you
01:06:51 have the percentage of the heart rate
01:06:54 you can do that with breathing too you
01:06:56 can do that with breathing frequency
01:06:58 yeah when does it change over right yeah
01:07:00 and you can find your athletes kind of
01:07:02 maximum breathing frequency when they're
01:07:04 really in the cellar all the way maximum
01:07:06 effort you know what the resting
01:07:07 breathing frequency is it's pretty
01:07:08 typical 12 to 16 somewhere in there and
01:07:11 so you can establish this range and then
01:07:13 you can use that as a as an intensity
01:07:16 scale and it turns out it has more scope
01:07:19 than the heart rate part of the scale
01:07:21 you know so anyway i don't want to get
01:07:23 too far in the weeds but that is a
01:07:25 variable that is very basic
01:07:27 and new technology is making it possible
01:07:30 for that to be kind of measured just as
01:07:33 easily or easier than heart rate
01:07:36 in the daily grind and so we'll see
01:07:39 whether that can add can help
01:07:43 do a better job of monitoring and and
01:07:46 perceiving where we are and and when to
01:07:49 say that's enough you know i've i've
01:07:51 done enough work today
01:07:53 i'm at you know 85 percent of my
01:07:56 breathing frequency if i go farther than
01:07:58 that then i'm really starting to i'm
01:08:00 going to blow up you know then it's too
01:08:01 much you know and i think we're going to
01:08:03 get there and so that's that's an area
01:08:05 that i'm spending a lot of time on right
01:08:07 now i love hearing that like i've
01:08:09 previously had uh the iceman wim hof on
01:08:13 the podcast when we talked about
01:08:14 breathing quite a bit and about how you
01:08:18 if if you're very highly stressed how to
01:08:22 autonomous nervous system through
01:08:24 breathing and then i had patrick mccowan
01:08:28 on the podcast as well we talked about
01:08:29 nasal breathing quite a bit which is
01:08:31 another topic that i thought was quite
01:08:33 fascinating yeah i've done that i've
01:08:35 tried that i i i saw you on twitter like
01:08:38 please please describe a little bit more
01:08:40 about the crossover what you started
01:08:44 if you see in the video i've got a
01:08:46 pretty solid nose here so i i probably
01:08:48 have some i have some anatomical
01:08:50 advantages for nose breathing but but uh
01:08:53 yeah you know i saw these initial things
01:08:56 about it and i thought and i've done a
01:08:57 few workouts two hour rides inside
01:08:59 outside you know just breathing through
01:09:01 my nose and my question was and i even
01:09:04 had a master's project where we tested
01:09:09 uh the idea that nose breathing acts as
01:09:12 a poor man's uh kind of
01:09:16 just to make to make sure you're below
01:09:18 your first lactic turn point
01:09:20 uh it turns out that's not true it
01:09:22 doesn't work that way
01:09:23 you there are with training people can
01:09:25 get quite good at breathing nose
01:09:27 breathing and they can achieve pretty
01:09:29 darn high intensities
01:09:32 with you know without opening their
01:09:33 mouth so that doesn't work
01:09:36 uh the but there are other questions
01:09:38 that are kind of interesting you know
01:09:40 there's been discussion about whether
01:09:41 there are different
01:09:43 uh neurological hormonal issues that
01:09:46 emerge when you just breathe through
01:09:47 your nose and i don't know enough about
01:09:49 that but i just i do know that i i find
01:09:53 interesting that you know on a good day
01:09:55 if my nasal passages are open and i just
01:09:57 breathe through my nose for two hours
01:09:58 it's kind of calming it's kind of
01:10:01 you know it's kind of like it's almost
01:10:02 meditative you know yeah
01:10:05 and so i've done some nice easy steady
01:10:07 state you know like 200 watts for two
01:10:10 hours and just breathing through my nose
01:10:11 and it's i like i kind of like it it's
01:10:13 got it's got a certain
01:10:15 i don't know there is a certain
01:10:17 mindfulness aspect to it
01:10:19 once you get past the first few weeks
01:10:22 not bombs that are just dripping out of
01:10:25 yeah yeah well it's kind of for me it's
01:10:27 like there are just days if i'll try not
01:10:29 like immediately my brain will just no i
01:10:31 ain't doing it today it doesn't work i'm
01:10:33 a bit tight in the nose whereas other
01:10:35 days you know okay this is going to
01:10:36 happen you know so it i kind of my body
01:10:38 just gives me a feedback pretty quickly
01:10:41 whether this is going to happen or not
01:10:44 i've pushed myself pretty far up the
01:10:46 scale and i was able to get to almost
01:10:48 like 300 watts which for me is a pretty
01:10:50 high intensity just breathing through my
01:10:52 nose what heart rate was that
01:10:55 well if i stayed there again depends on
01:10:57 how long i stay there
01:10:59 right because that's like 300 310 is
01:11:01 what i can do maximally for one hour
01:11:05 and the first five minutes my heart rate
01:11:07 is eighty percent of max the last five
01:11:08 minutes at 100 of max
01:11:10 right and this is an example this is
01:11:12 just that's a great question because
01:11:14 it's a good example
01:11:16 you can't say well what's your heart
01:11:17 rate that because i then i have to ask
01:11:19 you yeah well how how deep into the
01:11:21 weeds am i you know how long have i been
01:11:23 going and i'll give you a decent answer
01:11:26 you know after 30 minutes i'm at 90 plus
01:11:28 percent of heart rate and it's starting
01:11:32 but the first five minutes i'm like oh
01:11:34 i'm good i got this so so
01:11:38 this is such an important aspect to
01:11:40 understand for people is is that uh you
01:11:43 know you got to really attach duration
01:11:45 onto these things and and workouts that
01:11:48 start at threshold can end up
01:11:51 at vio at heart rate max
01:11:54 you know if you go if you go hard and if
01:11:56 they you know if they're pretty tough to
01:11:59 start they can end up at maximum you
01:12:01 know intensity at the end so there is no
01:12:05 steady state and that's very important
01:12:08 here's two examples that i want to just
01:12:10 share like when i started out with nasal
01:12:12 breathing for like an hour
01:12:14 after about at about 135 to 138 i kind
01:12:18 of felt that crossover point of like i
01:12:20 need to start mouth breathing now it
01:12:22 starts to become a little bit
01:12:25 fast forward like six or seven weeks of
01:12:28 training with that more more i started
01:12:30 noticing it became 140s 145 150
01:12:34 and at the end after one hour of like
01:12:37 pushing it i was able to run like a 608
01:12:39 minute mile at 165 167 heart rate
01:12:44 and i was still nose breathing and it
01:12:47 was like so mind-blowing to me to see
01:12:51 crossover point was able to change that
01:12:53 much in a relative short period of time
01:12:56 so yeah that was that's fascinating
01:12:59 you know and i don't know enough about
01:13:00 what's going on but my assumption is
01:13:02 that the oxygen demand is fairly much
01:13:04 the same and so you might be a little
01:13:07 bit more efficient on the breathing but
01:13:10 you know something's going on your your
01:13:12 brain there's some adaptations that are
01:13:13 happening pretty fast to allow you to
01:13:15 get more air in you know so so uh
01:13:19 your body needs the air it needs it
01:13:21 needs the same amount of oxygen
01:13:25 give or take a bit of efficiency on the
01:13:28 ventilation aspect of it you know so
01:13:30 it's pretty interesting the other thing
01:13:33 some sports particularly running rowing
01:13:35 you have something called entrainment
01:13:38 which means that the ventilation pattern
01:13:42 links in to the movement pattern
01:13:45 so if you're a runner you can if you go
01:13:48 out next time you go out and run you
01:13:49 you've probably done this where you
01:13:50 count strides and you say well i'm it
01:13:53 really if i'm really easy jogging it
01:13:58 as i breathe in and four as i breathe
01:14:00 out that would be a really relaxed slow
01:14:05 it might go to 3-3 as you pick up the
01:14:08 pace just a little bit but still quite
01:14:10 comfortable and then maybe once you get
01:14:12 pretty close to threshold it might be
01:14:14 more like 2-2 or 3-1 3-2 or you know
01:14:17 so there's these step changes
01:14:23 that are connected to the running
01:14:25 frequency the running cadence so the
01:14:27 running cadence and the breathing
01:14:31 link in in some multiple of each other
01:14:35 right and and this is true in rowing
01:14:37 it's destroyed running it has to do it
01:14:39 there's just certain situations where
01:14:41 the because of the the running the the
01:14:44 running movement
01:14:45 puts some demands on the diaphragm it
01:14:48 you know you have to stabilize that so
01:14:50 it kind of locks you in two different
01:14:53 and jack daniels the famous running
01:14:55 coach who had the book the daniel was
01:14:57 running for he talked about this decades
01:14:59 ago yeah you know but it hasn't really
01:15:02 we haven't really investigated it
01:15:04 very much but it it might be a
01:15:06 reasonable way to
01:15:09 approximate your running intensity where
01:15:12 if you can just know well yeah when i
01:15:14 break through when i go from 3-3 to 2-2
01:15:17 i've crossed the threshold
01:15:20 you with me yeah now
01:15:24 inhalation exhalation pattern connected
01:15:26 to your cadence so that's one of the
01:15:28 things we're going to be looking at is
01:15:30 whether we can you know detect this very
01:15:33 clearly and whether it links very
01:15:35 clearly in individually these these
01:15:38 phase changes to intensity to
01:15:41 threshold to anaerobic threshold and so
01:15:44 forth because if it does then it gives
01:15:46 you a kind of a poor man's
01:15:49 cool in the field for saying where am i
01:15:52 yeah that's why i love athletes to run
01:15:56 listening to music too so they can truly
01:15:58 pay more attention to the signals from
01:16:00 their body as well so yeah yeah yeah
01:16:03 there's a lot of technology going on
01:16:05 there's lots of other stuff going on so
01:16:07 don't misunderstand but that that's the
01:16:09 one that i'm kind of
01:16:11 zeroing in on to see if i can make a bit
01:16:13 of a contribution and see you know add
01:16:15 something to the to the you know because
01:16:17 the way i look at it
01:16:19 the technology is only useful if it
01:16:21 helps inform decisions if it informs the
01:16:24 training process if it makes
01:16:26 the athlete coach conversation better
01:16:30 you know if it adds to i use the analogy
01:16:33 of the heads up display
01:16:35 you know the fighter pilots they
01:16:38 need to keep their eyes on the prize
01:16:40 they need to keep their eyes looking
01:16:41 forward because they're moving so darn
01:16:43 fast that if they take their their you
01:16:45 know if your head's down looking at all
01:16:47 these instruments you're gonna get in
01:16:48 trouble pretty quick and crash into a
01:16:52 you need to be able to keep your head up
01:16:54 but you need some information some and
01:16:56 and so then you have the famous heads-up
01:16:58 display where they are projecting
01:17:02 onto the screen of the athlete or their
01:17:04 advisor so that they can see these
01:17:08 out on the horizon at the same time well
01:17:11 i think that's kind of what we want to
01:17:13 have as athletes or coaches that we i
01:17:16 want my athletes to be looking you know
01:17:18 focusing on the the actual process of
01:17:20 running or cycling or whatever but
01:17:22 there's certain numbers certain
01:17:24 quantitative pieces of information that
01:17:25 can be useful to them and we've got to
01:17:27 figure out we got to pick out the the
01:17:29 ones that are useful because too many is
01:17:31 overload so is it two or three different
01:17:33 things that might be useful that and
01:17:36 that's that heads up display and whether
01:17:38 in heart rate is probably part of that
01:17:40 display perceived exertion maybe
01:17:43 ventilation maybe you know so i'm just
01:17:44 saying lactate for some it's part of the
01:17:46 heads-up display occasionally that's
01:17:48 that's the idea is find your
01:17:52 little set of tools that give you
01:17:57 feedback and help inform your daily
01:18:00 adjustment process
01:18:02 love it maybe in the future there will
01:18:04 be lactate numbers on that blood oxygen
01:18:06 level there might be
01:18:08 uh glucose level yeah it will be
01:18:10 interesting to see where things are
01:18:11 going to be going in the next yeah and
01:18:13 just so we're clear we know there's a
01:18:15 lot of olympic champions and world
01:18:18 record holders that don't use any of
01:18:19 that crap yeah that's the beauty the
01:18:21 simplicity of things sometimes
01:18:23 i don't want people to walk away
01:18:25 thinking well stephen thinks he can you
01:18:27 know technology is the key to success no
01:18:29 i know that that's not true yeah
01:18:32 last few questions where can people find
01:18:34 more about you i know you're active on
01:18:36 twitter what is your twitter handle
01:18:39 uh it's just steven seiler it's just uh
01:18:43 s-p-h-s-t-e-p-h-e-n and then
01:18:48 very straightforward yeah any other
01:18:51 platforms for the students if you're a
01:18:54 student if you're connected to academia
01:18:56 and things like that then i am on what's
01:18:58 called researchgate which is you know
01:19:01 the reply or repository or kind of
01:19:03 social media for science geeks uh but it
01:19:07 is also a repository of a lot of the
01:19:09 research publications so it's a place
01:19:11 where you can download articles and
01:19:13 stuff that i've actually published that
01:19:15 you know the the substance behind the
01:19:18 the message here um so that's that's a
01:19:21 you know a channel and then then of
01:19:24 course like you mentioned i i dabble in
01:19:28 low-tech videos i want to just a
01:19:31 disclaimer there i am not a uh you know
01:19:35 uh director that's going to be getting
01:19:39 but i just put out these videos
01:19:41 occasionally about different topics uh
01:19:43 related to training
01:19:45 low-tech yet high value and just to talk
01:19:48 about like research gate 181
01:19:50 publications more than 5 000 citations
01:19:54 and almost a half million reits over
01:19:56 there and i'll make sure to link to that
01:19:57 in the show notes so
01:19:59 you're better your kids caught up better
01:20:02 yeah so it's a resource it's a tool and
01:20:05 i'm very happy that a lot of people do
01:20:07 read that stuff you know it's so that
01:20:09 gives me joy that's more important to me
01:20:14 scientific citations now that it's
01:20:16 actually finding a place in the
01:20:18 practical world that it's helping people
01:20:20 do do a better job and train happier and
01:20:24 keep a smile on their face all more
01:20:27 often and still still set personal bests
01:20:30 in the marathon you know i think both
01:20:31 can happen i guess that's the that's the
01:20:34 end message for me is that you we can
01:20:37 wake have happiness and and smile and
01:20:40 enjoy training and
01:20:42 go dig deep and set new personal records
01:20:45 and experience new breakthroughs they're
01:20:47 both they're actually two two sides of
01:20:50 the same process
01:20:52 love it thank you so much steven i
01:20:54 really appreciate the time i'll
01:20:57 absolutely look forward to following the
01:20:59 rest of your work developments in the
01:21:02 and uh especially in the area of sleep
01:21:04 that would be very fascinating to see as
01:21:08 oh so sorry i mean
01:21:10 not sleep i actually meant to say
01:21:12 uh the whole breathing pattern yeah
01:21:16 sleep's important too but i'll let other
01:21:18 people work on that
01:21:22 yeah i've still got a few good years
01:21:24 left in me i think so i hope i'll be
01:21:26 able to do some decent research so
01:21:28 thanks for having me on the on the
01:21:29 program and great thank you hello hello
01:21:32 flores here with a few lost closing
01:21:34 comments for this extra milest episode
01:21:37 number 50 we're giving away several
01:21:39 different prizes so you can win 150 gift
01:21:43 card to path projects and you can win a
01:21:46 lifetime access to my personal best
01:21:49 running coaching program
01:21:51 and all you have to do is let me know in
01:21:54 the youtube comments what was your
01:21:56 favorite lesson quote or takeaway from
01:21:59 this episode i know there were many
01:22:01 different nuggets
01:22:02 and everyone has different perception of
01:22:05 would love to hear from you what was it
01:22:07 that stood out to you over there and i'm
01:22:10 going to be picking one winner at random
01:22:12 who comments over there
01:22:14 this actually becomes a really fun
01:22:16 comment section you're gonna notice
01:22:18 quite a few different comments uh from
01:22:20 different perspectives or people are um
01:22:22 have their takeaways from this episode
01:22:25 i just want to say thank you so much for
01:22:27 listening and in closing i absolutely
01:22:30 agree what both dr steven seiler and
01:22:32 elliot kipchoge are saying that it is so
01:22:35 important to have joy in your workout so
01:22:38 have fun out there on your run bye now