00:03can everyone hear me okay great awesome
00:07um welcome uh this is our third week
00:10of our decal class and then um the topic
00:13that we're covering today today's
00:15product market fit um so before we um
00:18introduce the speaks uh the speakers um
00:23logistics as usual and then
00:26um the difference is that today we're
00:28actually doing a product panel
00:30so it's quite exciting um
00:33logistics um camera owned and mills on
00:36um and then for any questions just send
00:39it in the chat or use the reset feature
00:42and then again we we don't accommodate
00:45um you know for missing assignments and
00:48then uh just remember
00:50um oh that's actually a typo um but uh
00:54the product homework and the project
00:56assignment are due this sunday
00:58and then um please go register and go
01:03um and then for any questions um email
01:06uh decoys v gmail for um you know for
01:10for any help um so without further ado
01:14um today's speakers um well
01:17panel panelists um shaw who was here um
01:20two weeks ago um she did a great job and
01:24who is the product manager at
01:28land um and then also founder uh product
01:31hq um and then also jerry the founder at
01:35um with that being said let's welcome
01:40uh thank you thomas um so hi everyone
01:43um i'm sure most of you will remember me
01:46from the opening lecture
01:48um but i know some of you had your cs
01:51uh during that first session so um i
01:54believe there is a recording from that
01:56first lecture if you guys want to catch
01:57um but otherwise we have a really really
02:00exciting panel um here for you guys
02:02today this is the panel that i wish
02:04i could have listened to when i was in
02:06undergrad um what's really special is
02:09jerry and clement actually are from cal
02:12they are both cal alumni um and so
02:15they'll have a lot of shared experiences
02:17and probably can share the most relevant
02:21and so uh with that um really excited to
02:24have you both here today thank you for
02:26taking time out of your both busy
02:28um so to start maybe we could have both
02:31of you talk a little bit about your
02:33uh you know since cal what's happened
02:39so maybe jerry do you want to start
02:41sorry i can start um
02:43so i graduated cal in 2005
02:46so i feel really old talking to you guys
02:49and after cal so my first job was
02:51actually in the defense industry i
02:53actually worked for lockheed martin
02:54for about six years and then um
02:58the iphone came out i remember very
03:01i watched steve jobs introduce the
03:03iphone i was like wow that's
03:04that's an amazing piece of technology i
03:06wish i could do something like that
03:08rather than you know build missiles and
03:12i decided to learn iphone development
03:14and actually created my first app
03:16um when was it 2009 i think
03:19i created my first app uh and eventually
03:22back in those days you could just put an
03:24app on the app store and would make a
03:27like it's kind of crazy to think about
03:28but there's like i remember there was
03:31that made like a million dollars and i
03:33was just like whoa that's so crazy
03:35so i put my app on the app store and
03:38it just started to take off it was a
03:40fantasy football app
03:41and eventually a few years later it got
03:45and eventually became the yahoo fantasy
03:49so i was at yahoo for a few years and
03:52uh started to do a string of different
03:54startups with the same founder
03:56so one of the things that i think is
03:59entrepreneurship and startups is who you
04:01work with so i've actually been working
04:02with the same founding team for the last
04:05and so we've done a bunch of failed
04:08and hopefully welcome will be a little
04:11bit more successful than one of the ones
04:12that we've done so far but right now i'm
04:14president co-founder of welcome we are a
04:18virtual events platform so in some ways
04:20we're a competitor to zoom
04:22and what you guys are on right now so
04:23hopefully next time i'll come back you
04:25know berkeley can can use welfare we're
04:26actually talking with berkeley right now
04:28um so that's a little bit about my story
04:30i don't really have a product background
04:33electrical engineering computer science
04:37most of my career as an engineer and
04:39then an engineering leader
04:42and now i'm actually running sales for
04:45it's a little bit of a winding road um
04:48that's my story i'll go ahead and pass
04:52fantastic thanks so much um so again i'm
04:55clement uh i graduated from
04:57cal 2014 uh with a double major in
05:00molecular cell biology as well as
05:02business administration
05:03and so uh kind of back in those days um
05:06actually didn't really know that i want
05:07to be a product manager um really i was
05:09just trying to better understand
05:11what is it that i could do with this set
05:12of soft skills and hard skills right
05:14like as a biologist like i think like a
05:16scientist i want to be able to test
05:18i want to be able to see like what is
05:19true in the world and on the flip side
05:21like as a business administration major
05:23i really want to work with people right
05:24i really want to see businesses grow i
05:27customers have their pains solved and so
05:29i first got started as a management
05:32uh really the thinking there was hey if
05:33i get to look across
05:35all of these different industries and
05:36get to see the problems that executives
05:38are facing every day
05:39for these you know fortune 500 companies
05:41like mcdonald's um starbucks etc
05:43i'm going to be able to learn a lot more
05:44about what are the problems that i'm
05:46best suited to go tackle
05:47and potentially jump into industry kind
05:49of being acquired by one of my clients
05:52that was the thought that's not actually
05:54what wound up happening
05:55and so the thing is in terms of the way
05:56that we delivered our management
05:58it was actually pretty novel we have our
06:00own proprietary analytics platform where
06:03customers upload all their transaction
06:04data so for example you know cash
06:06all of those transactions and then
06:08basically we have this
06:09um you know analytics that basically
06:11does this test and learn
06:13uh kind of functionality where you can
06:15run an a b test to say
06:16oh well if you change the menu how does
06:18that change the performance of your
06:19stores right like if you change the
06:21opening hours if you open a new
06:22restaurant how does that cannibalize
06:24basically doing all of this um you know
06:28on top of uh how to phrase this we were
06:30basically teaching our clients how to
06:31use the software and also using the
06:34to go do all of these analyses on hey
06:37mcdonald's what store should you open
06:39how should you change your um hours
06:40um you know for whatever retailers how
06:42much you changed like the layouts of
06:45and the reason why i mentioned that is
06:46because that's how i started falling
06:48into product on accident
06:49um basically as a management consultant
06:51one of the things that i hated was that
06:53every day for three to four hours a day
06:55talking to people about
06:57no that's not how you run the analysis
06:59no this is not what this error means
07:01because the thing is the analytics
07:02platform was built by phd statisticians
07:05but the thing is the end users were all
07:07marketing analysts and so they're not
07:09people who understand
07:10stats at a very rigorous level right and
07:12so i think one of the things that came
07:14you know we were we were spending so
07:17much time on the phones as consultants
07:19just being tech support when we could
07:20have given them a better user experience
07:22and really enable them to go run off on
07:24their own so we can deliver higher value
07:27and so from there i accidentally became
07:29a user researcher where basically
07:30i was gathering all of this feedback
07:32from all of my clients on the phones
07:34and servicing that to my product team
07:35the people who were building their
07:37so that we could talk through well what
07:39is this user's mental model what is it
07:40that they're trying to do
07:41why are they stuck why are they calling
07:43us and using that to build this next
07:45a functionality that's a lot more usable
07:48from there basically i was poached by a
07:51real estate brokerage
07:52that had really enjoyed learning about
07:54like you know clement really understands
07:55reaching out to users we want to try to
07:57break into this new market right we're
07:59in real estate it's really easy to know
08:01when someone wants to buy a home they
08:02schedule an open house
08:03right and so then from there you can
08:04pair them with a real estate agent but
08:06there's a different question of what if
08:07someone wants to sell their home when
08:09should you provide them a real estate
08:10agent that's really hard
08:12and so they wanted me to basically go do
08:13this use a research to go find
08:15who are home sellers what is it that
08:17they're looking for when do they want
08:18real estate agents and can we build a
08:20and so that's what i went and did did a
08:22bunch of you know qualitative interviews
08:24a bunch of quantitative you know survey
08:27um and from there basically almost moved
08:29into more of a consulting or strategy
08:31role where i was trying to convince my
08:33there's this customer segment that is
08:35really interested in doing this one
08:36particular thing that we don't do today
08:38and we can't do today and we should do a
08:40startup in a startup
08:41so that we can actually go launch this
08:42business and serve all these people
08:44and so that's what happened like
08:46basically moved over to the business
08:47strategy side convinced people that like
08:48you know we should go launch this
08:50we had a product manager at the time and
08:52he said you know what
08:54i could be building products for this
08:55whole new business but i have another
08:57business to maintain i already got to
08:58build products for all of these guys
09:00go find another product manager and so
09:02my exact team said okay well we could
09:04hire another product manager but there's
09:06a risk because what if they don't
09:07understand our business what if they
09:08don't understand our users what if
09:09they're not a good cultural fit
09:10or we could take this user researcher
09:13who's not paid all that much
09:14and we can turn him into a product
09:15manager and have him try to do all this
09:18and i was trying to convince my
09:19executives you're making the wrong call
09:20i don't know anything about engineering
09:22i know nothing about design i'm a
09:23biologist like you have
09:24no idea what you're doing this is the
09:26wrong call they convinced me and they
09:28said okay clement just sit down for a
09:29week with an engineer
09:30sit down with a weak for a designer and
09:32learn as much as you can about working
09:34with folks on the technical side we
09:36promise we promise you're going to be a
09:37fine product manager
09:39so that's what i did i and so basically
09:42right of just like this like really
09:44weird journey kind of throughout all
09:45these different functions
09:46actually did finally become a product
09:48manager where i was basically building
09:50products for this business and within
09:51six months we were able to grow our
09:53revenues for this new business
09:54to be larger than the existing business
09:56and from there basically they asked me
09:57to take on all of our
09:58real estate agent-facing products um
10:00from there then i was captured by
10:02blend basically to be able to make the
10:04real estate industry uh sorry the real
10:05estate finance industry a lot better
10:07basically we make mortgages a lot easier
10:09to do and we make you know
10:10helocs home equity loans um auto loans
10:14vehicle loans all that stuff way easier
10:16for both consumers to be able to make
10:18their way through an application
10:19as well as lenders in terms of being
10:21able to work with their consumers
10:23to get that to fund right so instead of
10:24a mortgage need to take 60 days to close
10:26someone can now close that mortgage in
10:28and so the reason why i'm sharing this
10:30like really long drawn out story and i
10:32realize it's supposed to be a short
10:34is just the path the product is not
10:36particularly straightforward
10:37a lot of my peers kind of accidentally
10:40and it certainly doesn't you know
10:42whatever job you take
10:44as soon as you start out of college is
10:45not going to block you from getting into
10:48i went into management consulting and
10:49then went into user research and then
10:51did data analytics and they did business
10:52strategy right like and all of those
10:54things are totally fine because
10:55i was able to use those to basically
10:59engineers and business stakeholders to
11:00really figure out what is the product
11:02that we want to build to advance this
11:04so that's a little bit about me
11:12uh schwell heads up i think you're on
11:13you thanks for the heads up
11:15uh i was just saying thanks for sharing
11:17um i think it's true that when you're an
11:20you tend to think that you know a
11:22professional path can be very
11:24figure out what you want to do and then
11:25you go do it and then you keep on
11:26progressing down this path
11:28when in fact you know it takes you all
11:29sorts of unexpected places
11:32um and i know that um both um jerry
11:35and um clement you both did kind of a
11:37couple different things before
11:39um you know falling into your current
11:41role um and jerry i wanted to ask you
11:43for a little bit more details about uh
11:45you know you kind of
11:46uh briefly talked about you had started
11:48and uh co-founded and run a couple of
11:51um would be great if you can talk
11:52through that journey a little bit as
11:54um i think the focus today is to talk
11:57about product but also to talk about
11:59product market fit which is extremely
12:00relevant for startups
12:02so love to have you share a little bit
12:04more about your experience as well
12:06yeah happy too um so i think when i
12:10think about product market fit and all
12:11the different startups that i've started
12:13the one variable um that really
12:18when we had it versus when we didn't is
12:20when we built something that we
12:22ourselves wanted all right so
12:24the very first startup uh we were
12:28fantasy football app me and my friends
12:30we all loved fantasy football because
12:32after we graduated from cal
12:33we would have a fantasy football league
12:35every year we would have a fantasy
12:36basketball league every year that's how
12:38me and my friends kept in touch
12:40and so when i was building the fantasy
12:43i would just go to my friends and hey
12:45hey try this out right like uh
12:47and then they thought they thought it
12:48was pretty lame actually they're like
12:49why would you want to check your scores
12:52like keep in mind this is you guys are
12:53young but like back in those days phones
12:56tiny you know so it's just like i can't
12:57even see my scores on this thing
13:00but you know we kept at it because we
13:03understood what the user wanted because
13:07so climate you talked about real estate
13:09i actually had a real estate startup
13:10like a few years ago we were trying to
13:13create commercial real estate
13:16property management software now i
13:19invested in commercial real estate but i
13:22really didn't understand the nuances
13:24of the user right i was not a property
13:26manager i was not an asset manager i was
13:29and my application was geared toward um
13:32i mean the end user you talk about the
13:34end users right the end user was the
13:35actual property manager i had no
13:38so as a result i could not learn as
13:40quickly because i had to get feedback
13:44from somebody else that really
13:45understood the space
13:47fast forward a little bit right so uh we
13:50got into y combinator
13:51i don't know if you know but we actually
13:52got into y combinator with a completely
13:55my cousin who also went to berkeley um
13:59co-founder and ceo of caviar which is uh
14:03it's actually most one of the most
14:04well-known berkeley-based startups it
14:06actually started in berkeley
14:07doing food delivery yeah and so yeah and
14:11funded us to essentially create caviar
14:15where we would sell um to restaurants
14:18and then create an app to let them order
14:20ingredients from their wholesalers
14:21so we did that for a little bit but we
14:24didn't really understand wholesale food
14:26none of us were really into space and so
14:30of course all the restaurants closed um
14:34and so we couldn't sell to our customers
14:35anymore so as we kind of sat around
14:37we're like okay what
14:39what is something that we know number
14:41one and what is something that we think
14:45uh like could be a tailwind right for
14:49now my co-founder and i we used to
14:53uh in-person events so after we got
14:56acquired by yahoo as you do you kind of
14:58rest invest you get kind of bored
14:59right so we decided to create a meet up
15:02for other entrepreneurs
15:04that had gotten acquired and they were
15:07leadership positions so we were in our
15:08mid-20s we were promoted to like
15:11you know director level physicians we've
15:12never managed a single person before so
15:15these guys are crazy why would they do
15:18got a group of other founders that felt
15:22started off as a meetup and then it
15:23became bigger and bigger because we
15:25realized there are a lot of people in
15:26position and eventually it became a
15:29full-blown conference
15:30we would fly in speakers you know we had
15:33huge venues we had a production team of
15:36and we loved it i mean it was just a
15:37passion project of ours and so when
15:39we're thinking about experience
15:41and then going to all these virtual
15:43events right including a lot on zoom
15:45we're like wow there's i mean virtual
15:49all right so like we would never put any
15:51of our events on on zoom or like on
15:54any other platforms so that really gave
15:56us an idea for welcome
15:58so welcome in a nutshell is it's a
16:01virtual event platform that allows you
16:06that feel like an apple product launch
16:08right that's the level of production
16:10value that's a level quality that we go
16:12and so we launched about two months ago
16:15exploded out the gate why i mean yes we
16:19got lucky in a sense because of the
16:20timing and coven and things like
16:22that but the difference between building
16:25almost every other startup that we've
16:27tried is that we knew exactly what to
16:30because we were the end user
16:34i think that's perfect um actually in
16:36one of the previous semesters when
16:38michael came in he was also talking
16:40um how whether or not you know you have
16:42product market fit and the easiest way
16:45essentially whether or not you have too
16:47many users coming in that you
16:48are worried every day about not having
16:50the right resources to serve all the
16:52users that are coming in
16:53and so i think um that relates very well
16:56to what you're saying
16:57and in terms of thinking about how you
17:01maybe if you could talk a little bit
17:02about how you decided to make the switch
17:05as well it's obviously because you used
17:06to host in-person events
17:08but there could also be you know a dozen
17:10other things that you could be building
17:12how did you choose this particular thing
17:14out of all the different other options
17:18well i'll be honest we didn't have a lot
17:21we had a few other ideas they always
17:24ended up in dead ends
17:25again because we didn't have any
17:28and virtual events was really something
17:32strongly was going to be big and also
17:37we felt like it was easy pickings to be
17:38honest because we we saw what was out
17:41and we were like i think we could do
17:43better in fact i think we could do
17:44better in a really short amount of time
17:47um and we were just all excited about
17:51my younger brother so my dad's actually
17:53here john cena he's actually my dad i
17:54want to call him out
17:55so my younger brother is actually a
17:58co-founder he's actually 15 years
17:59younger than i am so he's a lot younger
18:02and he actually was helping us out uh
18:05back when we were doing these events too
18:06i mean he was really young but he was
18:09and so all three of us had experience in
18:11events so we knew what it took and
18:14i think when you know exactly what's
18:16missing like if you when you see like
18:18the gap so to speak in the offensive
18:20line right sorry i'm a sports guy so i
18:21like to use for that when you see the
18:23gap in the defensive line like
18:24you just go for it right and that was
18:25the only gap we saw every other
18:28opening closed on us and so that was the
18:31that we saw was realistic by the way
18:34when we were looking at yc startups
18:36we were talking to other investors and
18:38they were like oh yeah did you guys know
18:39that two of the co-founders are brothers
18:41i totally thought you guys were twins i
18:42didn't know he's 15 years younger
18:45oh why thank you charlie
18:51clement i also wanted to follow up and
18:54especially because you're looking at
18:56real estate and kind of all of these
18:58more complex financial products how do
19:00you think about product when
19:01you're working in a very different space
19:03especially because jerry is essentially
19:06um also delivering you know obviously
19:08value to end users but
19:10doing event production for larger
19:13how about from your perspective um what
19:15are you thinking about every day
19:17yeah for sure great question and so i
19:19think first just want to hammer home on
19:22significantly easier to build products
19:25when you yourself are the end user
19:26right and so the reason why i say that
19:28is because you know i basically wear
19:30these two different hats like my
19:32product manager at blend but kind of my
19:34side hat is of course founder at you
19:36know product manager hq which is
19:38a community of product managers kind of
19:39all around the world and there because i
19:41am a product manager right like i can
19:43very clearly see there are gaps in terms
19:45events or content or what have you and
19:47so it's very clear to me like what is
19:48the next thing that i should be doing
19:50product manager hq basically on the
19:52weekends at nights whatever
19:53but in terms of actually attacking
19:55financial technology right like in
19:58it is so much more difficult to be able
20:02kind of reason first principles
20:04perspective of what is the next thing
20:05that we should be doing and i think the
20:07reason for that is because
20:08consumer finance is incredibly
20:10incredibly complicated like there are so
20:12many different players in this space
20:14all of whom have you know these
20:15interlocking interactions with one
20:17and on top of that there's all these
20:19regulations on top of it right like
20:20there are all these different governing
20:21bodies that say you have to do things
20:23in xyz way and you also have to worry
20:25about information security which is all
20:27um i guess on top of that like when
20:31businesses i think one of the things
20:34forget about when they are launching
20:37business to business
20:39businesses basically is that you need to
20:42an entire business to adopt your product
20:44and that means that they have to change
20:45the way that they work
20:46right and so as an example when we're
20:48working with lenders like u.s bank
20:50wells fargo what have you they already
20:52have had processes in place for the last
20:54decade two decades three decades that
20:56have been profitable that have made them
20:58market leaders and so
20:59why should they give up all of the
21:01things that they were doing before
21:03to go try to adopt your new thing right
21:04and so in those spaces
21:06it is actually really important to bring
21:08along your customer as a partner right
21:11we're very good at understanding what
21:13user experiences should look like we're
21:14really good at understanding you know
21:16how can we make a really delightful
21:17consumer experience but when it comes
21:20okay but what regulations do we need to
21:21watch out for how are your current
21:23processes working in terms of who's in
21:25taking the loan who's handing out the
21:26loan off to someone else what are all
21:28the different systems that are in play
21:29we rely on our customers to be those
21:31thought partners alongside us and so
21:32one of the things that we really want to
21:34focus on is we really want to co-develop
21:36with them right um one of the things
21:38is really crucial as you try to work
21:40towards getting your product
21:42to fit a market right i mean the whole
21:44concept of product market fit is
21:46there exists some market out there in
21:47the world that would have existed with
21:49or without your product
21:50right then you have some product
21:52something that you've built
21:53and the open question is how well does
21:55your product actually
21:56lock into this market right and the way
21:59in which you actually get your product
22:00to meet that market very very well
22:02is to one have a lot of agility because
22:04if you can't make your product
22:06shift very quickly it's not going to be
22:07able to evolve quickly to a market right
22:10but two is you need to know what market
22:11you're going after you need to know what
22:13it is that the market needs and so
22:14when your customers are sitting
22:16alongside you co-developing for this
22:18you know enterprise sas software
22:20basically you know how are we going to
22:23create a loan out of nothing how are we
22:24going to actually go work through the
22:26different scenarios on a loan make a
22:27decision on a loan for how to get a loan
22:29into all these different operating
22:32it's really crucial to bring customers
22:33in because now they're supplying that
22:36and so long as you have sufficient
22:37agility to really work alongside
22:39customers to build that out
22:40you can really go flush out that product
22:42market fit right out the gate right like
22:44the market is demanding what the product
22:46should look like right like they're
22:48the ones who are telling you this is
22:49what fit looks like and of course from
22:51there there's almost like a reverse
22:53of you don't want to become a custom dev
22:55shop right what i mean by that is you
22:56don't want them to be telling you
22:58all the shots of what it is that you
22:59should be building you need to come in
23:00with you know pretty principled stances
23:02yes i understand that your business used
23:04to work this way but
23:06we see that the world is better in xyz
23:09data instead of docs if you if you give
23:11the consumer more information instead of
23:13less if you can pre-fill more
23:14information on their behalf
23:15and so kind of so long as we come to
23:17them with this is our perspective on the
23:19world but we're missing these pieces
23:20tell us these other pieces let's jointly
23:22solution it together
23:23that almost automatically creates
23:26at least back to the original question
23:28of what am i thinking about all day
23:30i'm really thinking about two core
23:32pieces in terms of consumer finance
23:35on the lender's behalf right and so one
23:37of the things to think about for blend
23:39is that we're not even a business to
23:42business company we're really a business
23:43to business to consumer company because
23:45our end product is this two-sided
23:47platform where consumers apply for loans
23:50through usbank.com or wellsfargo.com or
23:52right and so we serve that entire
23:54consumer side of the experience
23:56we also have to serve the entire lender
23:57side of the experience of okay and now
23:59you have all these loans that you need
24:00to work on you're sitting in there eight
24:01hours a day you know five days a week
24:03how are you gonna work on all
24:03these loans right and so from that
24:05perspective i need to wear two different
24:07hats of what am i worried about right
24:09and so from a lender's perspective i'm
24:10worried about two things one is
24:12how do i create more value for my
24:14consumers whether that more value is
24:16shortening the amount of time it takes
24:18for them to be able to get the loan that
24:20or whether it is enabling them to get
24:23alongside the loan that they want right
24:24so as an example if i was going to get a
24:27right i could go get that mortgage and
24:29pay let's say you know 2.85
24:32uh no 2.875 percent right or
24:36if i also open a deposit account
24:38basically a checkings account or a
24:39savings account with that financial
24:41and i put in 100k they'll they're going
24:46discount on my mortgage right and it's
24:48great for the financial institution to
24:50they can then take these deposits that i
24:52put in and use that to lend out to other
24:54borrowers right so it's great for the
24:55finance institution to offer that
24:56discount it's great for the consumer
24:58because then they can do more with the
24:59lender and get like these financial
25:01right so as a lender part one is how do
25:04i provide more value for the consumer
25:06and part two is how do i cut my costs
25:08right because at the end of the day
25:09consumer finance just requires a lot of
25:11manpower unfortunately right like it's
25:13just so much paperwork and all of these
25:16systems that don't necessarily talk to
25:17each other very well and so
25:19as an example when you're trying to go
25:22or even if you're trying to get like an
25:23auto loan right someone might tell you
25:26hey well what i need is i'm going to
25:28need you know two months
25:30of your uh sorry i'm gonna need
25:32basically um two months of your asset
25:33statements right basically
25:35you know i wanna see that you have the
25:36money in your uh bank account to be able
25:39to make the down payment on your house
25:41right and one of the things that happens
25:42is consumers will then send them
25:44like two different months like two
25:46non-continuous months of
25:48um asset statements right or they're
25:49only going to send them four out of five
25:51pages because the fifth page is blank
25:52and then that means a lot of back and
25:54forth between the consumer and the loan
25:57and that is all really painful but what
25:58blend can do is blend can enable the
26:01into their um savings account online
26:04and be able to just automatically pipe
26:06that information over to the financial
26:08so that what used to take two weeks to
26:10coordinate now takes just
26:11as much time as it takes for the bar to
26:13log in right and so as a lender i care a
26:16about reducing the time that it takes to
26:18actually go create a loan and you know
26:19reducing all those operational costs
26:21right from a consumer perspective of
26:24course what i really want to know
26:26is how can i get the lowest possible
26:28rates um with the fastest possible time
26:30to close because i have stuff that i
26:31want to do i think one of the things
26:33that we need to really remember
26:34about consumers as borrowers is that no
26:37one wants to be a borrower
26:38right like no one goes out there and
26:40says darn i really wish i could take an
26:43loan right like people say i want to buy
26:45a house right like i want to move my
26:47here i want to be able to have my kids
26:49attend this school district
26:51i want to be able to grow my family i
26:53want to be able to move in with a
26:54significant other or whatever right so
26:56no one goes into it thinking
26:57well gee i'd really love a loan people
26:59are really going into it saying i really
27:00want to get a house right and so
27:01how can we make it so that they can
27:05all of these objectives without needing
27:06to worry so much about all of these
27:09background concerns right how do we make
27:10sure that they're always going to get
27:11the lowest possible rate
27:12and have that loan close in the fastest
27:14possible time with the smoothest
27:15possible experience so
27:17kind of those are the things that keep
27:18me up at night um there are multiple
27:20ways to attack that whether that's from
27:21a consumer experience perspective a
27:23lender experience perspective or an
27:24integrations perspective
27:26as an example one of the things that you
27:29you can basically you know instead of
27:30having to send someone out to go look at
27:32a house right looking at a house and you
27:35know actually visit the house during
27:37and say like okay i think this house is
27:40basically worth about 1.25 million
27:42based on you know the roof and the
27:44exterior and the foundation or whatever
27:45right like why not just use data why not
27:48use all of the different property
27:50that's kind of like that house the same
27:52three bedroom two bath in the same
27:54neighborhood with the same
27:55uh characteristics what if we could just
27:57do that that's called an
27:58automated valuation model avm if we
28:01could hit that instead of
28:02asking the borrower to go schedule a
28:04time with an appraiser to go come
28:06out and then wear a mask and make sure
28:07that they don't get infected right like
28:09instead of doing all of that
28:10what if we just integrated to an abm so
28:12that no one has to do any of these
28:13shenanigans right and so
28:14but that's easier than done we can do
28:16the integration but that the lender
28:18needs to accept that their risk policy
28:20that you know i'm going to go fund this
28:22mortgage or this home equity loan or
28:24is going to accept taking this avm
28:27instead of taking this paper-based
28:28process of sending out a person to go
28:30look at it properly so
28:31kind of these are the types of things
28:32that i think about and
28:34i wouldn't know to think about these
28:35things unless i talked to my customers
28:37and really understood
28:38okay well how do you how does your
28:40process work today what are you really
28:42like what is it that you're trying to
28:43get done with your business and how do
28:45our software our offering to enable you
28:48to be able to do all of that so kind of
28:50that that's how i think about
28:51um you know what are the things that you
28:55offer um in terms of trying that forward
28:57and so again kind of
28:58when you are serving yourself and you
29:02it's really easy to find product market
29:04fit because you're your own user right
29:05kind of um whereas if you're trying to
29:08go after a market where like you are not
29:10the end user it is really important for
29:11you to establish really deep
29:12partnerships with your customers
29:14because they're the ones who are going
29:15to best understand the pains that you
29:17need to solve on their behalf for them
29:18to decide to work with you
29:23i think we can tell that clement you're
29:25obviously thinking about
29:26this all the time and this is definitely
29:28what keeps you up at night you're very
29:30detailed and thorough and i think that's
29:31really helpful because
29:33um for students that are hearing about
29:36this the very first time
29:37um i think it's important to understand
29:39that a lot of the things that they
29:40listen to sound really high level and
29:42you know that's that i think it's
29:43helpful for them to hear
29:44kind of on a detailed level um what
29:47you're thinking through day to day as
29:49um at the same time in the interest of
29:51time i want to make sure that we leave
29:53enough time for students to ask
29:55um so before we open up the floor
29:58to students asking questions maybe i'll
30:00ask both of you to take a quick step
30:03thinking back to when you first started
30:05your professional careers
30:06some of the things that you wish you had
30:08known back then and what you would have
30:10done differently had you known it back
30:12maybe we talk a little bit about that um
30:14as well as any advice that you might
30:16have for students in terms of thinking
30:17about professional choices
30:19um and um we can open up the floor
30:23to um everyone else here to ask
30:25questions to you directly
30:27so maybe jerry will start with you
30:31wow that's a tough question um so what
30:34what would i wish i did differently
30:36if i was like graduating berkeley today
30:41i think the biggest thing would be to
30:45i think you'll like the show to think
30:50because as even as a uh
30:53young person entering the workforce you
30:56got to think about your time is
30:59right one of the most powerful um
31:02speeches i ever heard was steve jobs he
31:04spoke at the stanford commencement
31:06and he said you know we're all short on
31:10death comes for everyone and i mean
31:12that's not fun to think about
31:13right but at the same time it's like
31:15look college is an amazing time i had an
31:17amazing time at berkeley
31:19um but i don't think i fully appreciated
31:21how quickly that goes by i mean i'm like
31:24how many years has it been since i
31:25graduated like 15 years right it just
31:27goes by in the blink of an eye
31:29and you need to think about your career
31:32and your life really as like you're
31:34making a time investment
31:36you're making you're putting time equity
31:38you're putting sweat equity
31:40right into whatever it is that you're
31:42gonna do and the great thing
31:44about being young is you have boundless
31:48and you have like now i
31:52i mean i just don't have the energy that
31:54i did when i was younger
31:55right sometimes i think i can do it but
31:57my body just just gives up on me
31:59and so i wish i had 21 year old energy
32:01doing this startup i really do
32:03like i almost thought like actually my
32:05co-founder roberto's here as well like
32:06we're both we're old heads
32:08right we wish we were young spring
32:10chickens and we could just like
32:12you know uh do all-nighters and and
32:15and do all that stuff but we can't
32:19part of me wishes that i um did startups
32:24i did startups earlier because startups
32:25if you think about what a startup is
32:27right the risk reward profile
32:30i think is heavily favors young people
32:33because you don't have families
32:35you don't have any obligations really
32:39um you are able to take those risks
32:43right you can go up and you can take
32:44swing after swing after swing and you're
32:46young you're resilient
32:47you're able to bounce back and go again
32:50um and so i think if i were to
32:52travel back in time to you know senior
32:562005. i would say look look at this as
32:59an investment and think about
33:01think twice before joining a uh
33:04you know defense contractor with 150 000
33:07and maybe there's there's a better use
33:09of your youth than to do that
33:12thanks um i want to follow up on that
33:14but hi roberto if you want to say
33:17here uh feel free to chime in as well um
33:20but i did want to follow up with your
33:24one of the most common questions that i
33:26get from students and we talked a little
33:28bit about this in our opening um
33:30lecture for this class as well uh is
33:32that i always get students asking you
33:34know whether or not they should
33:35build a little bit more experience first
33:37or they should jump straight in
33:38and the issue oftentimes is jumping
33:40straight in is that a lot of students
33:43what to do and as a result get washed
33:45into you know one of
33:47um the few kind of most common career
33:50paths that people go into
33:52um and so i i think it would be really
33:56interesting for you to talk a little bit
33:58about uh you know the different
34:00things that you would have to balance
34:02and um what would be
34:04a good point to say hey this is the
34:05right time to start something
34:07and this is the right idea or this is
34:09the right team to do it with
34:11that's a really good question so um i
34:14think i should clarify when i say i wish
34:16did startups earlier i don't mean start
34:20i i merely mean i i think i should have
34:25because it's so different like
34:28uh startups i think there's just way
34:32right when it comes to your own career
34:34growth sure there's a lot of risk
34:36but to be honest there's not that much
34:38risk right like i think the risk is
34:41um in terms of like what students should
34:45think about in terms of getting
34:46experience i think experience is really
34:49um so my dad who's also here he used to
34:52uh quote shakespeare he would say
34:54you're just uh what was it like you're
34:56an unbruised youth with unstuffed brain
34:58right like you just say that to me and
34:59my brothers all the time you're under
35:00unbrews youth with unstoppable
35:02which basically we have we don't know
35:03what the hell we're talking about we
35:05right um and so i think that's partially
35:09but what i find is that in startups that
35:12can be an asset sometimes
35:14sure you don't know what you're doing
35:15but you also don't know how hard it is
35:18right and so you'll you'll try things
35:20that maybe other people haven't
35:22tried before and i i wouldn't discount
35:27smart people that are a little bit naive
35:30resilient and willing to take a chance
35:34i do think experience helps in several
35:37ways number one is recruiting
35:39so because i've been um you know
35:43in silicon valley for a while i have a
35:46amazing engineers amazing product people
35:48amazing sales people that
35:50whenever i start a company like you know
35:51as long as i have the funding they'll
35:54you know and and that can't really be
35:55understated because once you raise a lot
35:58capital no longer becomes a constraint
36:01and that's really really hard for i
36:06entrepreneur to really appreciate
36:08because at that age you don't even know
36:09what a talent is right you can't even
36:11you can't really spot it um and so
36:14i think that's a big i would say that's
36:17a big disadvantage if you're starting as
36:19but then again like you know there's
36:21there's a lot of resources out there
36:23people grow they learn quickly investors
36:25will teach you a lot of that stuff
36:26so i would say the biggest thing between
36:28starting a startup as
36:29maybe fresh out of college versus a
36:31little bit older uh where i am
36:33um is i definitely have less energy now
36:37all right but i think i'm a little more
36:41and roberto too right we'll we'll uh
36:44make less mistakes i think
36:45because we've seen a lot of different
36:48ways things could go bad
36:50but at the same time it is a little bit
36:52of a con as well because
36:54i don't think we would take as big of
36:57as we might if we were younger and
36:59sometimes the biggest
37:00risks have the biggest reward absolutely
37:04i'm glad that you clarified that because
37:06even in uh kind of our opening lecture
37:09we were talking about this
37:10i think a lot of students think about
37:12entrepreneurship and think that it means
37:14they start their own startup right away
37:16and i think that's not necessarily the
37:18only path to success
37:20and a lot of the learning actually also
37:21comes from joining another startup
37:24um and figuring out when the right
37:25timing is that you really have a problem
37:28build a great solution to um instead of
37:30you know jumping in with a solution and
37:32wanting to build it without first
37:34actually starting with the problem um so
37:36yes i absolutely agree
37:38um and uh we're hiring two by the way
37:40just want to put that out there
37:42we're hiring so for anyone who's
37:45definitely reach out to thomas and
37:46summer and i'm sure they can help
37:49um but i was about to say um
37:52that really i used to in in my undergrad
37:55years when i think back
37:56i used to hear people say that you know
37:58once they get to like 30s or late 20s or
38:01you know you know even there um they
38:03just don't have as much energy and i
38:05used to think how could that be
38:06possible um and i think i mean
38:10obviously clement i knew you from
38:12undergrad so i'm sure you can attest to
38:14the fact that i'm always super energetic
38:17um after our startup got aqua hired and
38:19i was with goldman sachs um
38:21one of our toughest weeks i remember
38:23sleeping four hours over seven days and
38:25i was perfectly fine
38:26it wasn't a big issue not sleeping for
38:30but definitely by the time you get to
38:32you know upon 10 years into your career
38:34and longer you really do start to reach
38:38you just don't have that much energy so
38:41really really resonate with that um i
38:43think you really do need to value those
38:46young and energetic years to do a lot of
38:50time is actually super valuable so yes
38:52resonate with that a lot
38:54um and i wanted to also turn to you
38:57um clement to talk a little bit about
38:59your thoughts if you were to go back to
39:02you know what were what would be some of
39:03the things that you would have done
39:04differently or even just
39:05lessons that you knew you wished back
39:09so i'd say that there are really kind of
39:12three that are top of mind um in terms
39:14of the ones that i really wish that i'd
39:15done back when i was undergrad
39:16and so first off again just doubling
39:18down on what both shula and jerry have
39:21learning is so so so important and one
39:23of the things that you get to do while
39:26is you're not just learning you're
39:27learning how to learn and i think
39:29a lot of people don't realize that the
39:32really actively think about how am i
39:34learning about how i'm learning how can
39:35i be even faster at learning how can i
39:37master more subjects more quickly
39:40that gives you so much mobility later in
39:41life right because no matter what it is
39:43that you decide to do whether you just
39:44decide to uh join a startup or start
39:48the more quickly you can learn a totally
39:52right like that can be really really
39:53valuable because that reduces the
39:54barrier of entry for you moving from any
39:56one industry to another
39:58right so um as an example right like you
40:01be able to move from e-commerce all the
40:02way to you know real estate right like
40:04that might be really really cool if
40:06you're able to learn really quickly
40:08and on the flip side it's not just
40:09domain knowledge it's role knowledge
40:12one of the things that you know i am
40:15you know so in awe of for jerry is that
40:18into tackling sales after a successful
40:20career in engineering
40:22like through entrepreneurship right like
40:24that is amazing and it really attests to
40:26his ability to learn quickly and to be
40:28able to pivot and to really like dive in
40:31really consider that as like the next
40:32thing that he's going to be tackling
40:34kind of by learning how to learn quickly
40:38continuously thinking about what are
40:40ways in which i could have learned more
40:41quickly the things i learned this week
40:42what are ways in which i can get even
40:44more quickly kind of those will all
40:46enable you to do a lot more with your
40:49and open up your options right it really
40:50lets you attack any domain
40:52any problem and any role within those
40:54domains and problems
40:56um that you want and so i would really
40:58stress that you know as a student
41:00don't just be thinking about like oh man
41:01like i have to go study for this midterm
41:03it's like how can i study more
41:04effectively for this midterm and then
41:06for the things i studied for this
41:07midterm how could i apply that into the
41:08real world right like
41:09how can i kind of learn about learning
41:11so i can learn really really quickly
41:13because that will pay you dividends
41:14for such a long time right i think one
41:16of the things that i haven't mentioned
41:18yet is like at blend
41:19like i'm currently on my eighth like
41:20product rotation i've
41:22i've done a bunch of different product
41:24domains at blen mostly because i can
41:25learn really quickly and so
41:27i've tackled um you know home equity
41:28lines of credit i've talked about
41:29mortgages i've talked about this whole
41:31other business line called
41:32you know wholesale lending um i'm
41:34currently tackling auto loans i'm
41:36currently tackling credit cards before i
41:38like technical integrations with all
41:40these different systems and like
41:41that's mostly because i really had to
41:43learn how to learn quickly as a
41:45biologist right because you have to
41:46study and memorize all of these cycles
41:48and all of these molecules right
41:50and so kind of if you really focus right
41:52now as a student on how can i learn to
41:54learn as fast as i can
41:55that will really really help you so
41:57that's really lesson one um
41:59i think i did a decently good enough job
42:01of that but i think i never really
42:03and so it leads me to like my next two
42:05points is the other point
42:06is i think i very much over index on
42:10right and what i mean by that is i've
42:12never really tested my hypotheses
42:14of what are the different careers that i
42:16might like what are the different
42:17industries that i might like right and
42:18one of the things that i had to go do
42:20basically is i had to become a
42:21management consultant
42:22to go look at all of these different
42:24industries and look across all these
42:25different roles right it's like
42:26if i had gone out and reached out to
42:30gone out and talked to my professors
42:31right like people who have already been
42:34i could have tested those hypotheses if
42:35i had done more internships while i was
42:38if i had you know taken um you know some
42:41focused a lot more on tackling like jobs
42:44outside of my classes
42:45i would have been able to learn so much
42:47more about all these different options
42:49available to me professionally
42:50right and so i think one of the things
42:52that you know i really really wish i'd
42:53done is i really wish i had
42:55underweighted my academics a little bit
42:57and really like more weighted
42:59my discovery in terms of what are the
43:00hypotheses that i want to test
43:02for my professional working life do i
43:04want to do entrepreneurship do i want to
43:05be doing biology do i want to be doing
43:07business do i want to be doing tech
43:08what kinds of roles what kinds of
43:10problems like all these things you can
43:12very easily get the answers to simply by
43:14finding an alumni like
43:15me or jerry or schwall and just like
43:19what were your journeys like what'd you
43:20like what didn't you like and you can
43:21kind of learn secondhand from us without
43:24hit your head against the wall yourself
43:25right and like that is another way
43:27to go back to that first point of
43:28accelerating your speed of learning
43:30right like that is really really
43:32so like please please please reach out
43:35feel free to reach out to me whenever
43:37because it is really important that you
43:38have that knowledge to be able to
43:40break down these hypotheses of what is
43:42it that i'm going to be uniquely suited
43:44and that leads me to my third and final
43:46point which is one of the things that we
43:48have to keep in mind
43:49is that like jerry mentioned that you
43:52have to think like an investor right
43:54and i completely agree with that but not
43:55just that you have to think as a
43:56customer what i mean by that
43:57what i mean is a lot of the time some of
44:00the things that we think is
44:01you know we think about what do i want i
44:04want to be a founder
44:05i want to be a vp of something i want to
44:07be able to make a million dollars i want
44:09to have this job title i want to be an
44:11but the thing is that's not how value is
44:15the way that value is created in the
44:16world is when you identify that there is
44:19that is struggling that has pain and
44:21when you see that pain and you can
44:24this is some sort of value that i can
44:25create for them when you create
44:28value for them that then enables you to
44:29be able to capture it right and so
44:31the way i think about it is no matter
44:33what job you take you're all your own
44:34founders and you're all your own
44:35entrepreneurs and what i mean by that is
44:37you're running the business of being you
44:40you have a customer which is whatever
44:42kind of hiring organization you have
44:44right my current customer right now
44:45is blend right blend is my customer
44:47blend has some sort of
44:48have some set of pains that it has right
44:50right now what they really need is they
44:53who can really think through all of
44:54these you know regulatory complexities
44:57and all these business process
44:58complexities and also understanding our
45:02how can we evolve it to do all of these
45:03new capabilities in this new paradigm
45:06that is an incredibly difficult problem
45:08to be solved but because i know that
45:10that's blends problem
45:11i can solve that problem really well as
45:13a product manager right and so what i
45:15when you are looking for jobs when
45:18you're looking to get employed by a
45:19startup or when you are trying to create
45:22you always have to start all the way
45:23down from the basics and this takes us
45:24back to product market fit
45:26the market exists there is a market you
45:29have a customer and they are in
45:30a lot of pain right but the question is
45:32what's the pain right
45:33how am i going to go find that pain so
45:36then i can go iterate through
45:38how am i going to provide value to that
45:40pain right the thing that we have to all
45:42is businesses don't exist for the sake
45:46businesses can only exist because
45:48customers are willing to give money to
45:50in exchange for having their pains
45:52solved and similarly
45:54jobs don't exist for you to get employed
45:57businesses have pains they don't know
45:59how to solve a thing with their current
46:01and so they need someone to step in to
46:03be able to take on all of these
46:04headaches and all of these pains
46:05and they're willing to pay money for it
46:07and that's what a job is right so
46:09we have to remember that we ourselves
46:10our products we ourselves are solutions
46:12and then we can't just solve problems
46:15out of thin air we have to go understand
46:16what is the problem that we want to
46:18solve right so again
46:19accelerate your speed of learning go
46:21talk to other people and you know really
46:22focus on what are the professional
46:24journey hypotheses that i want to test
46:26so that you can go really understand
46:28what customer do i want to solve a pain
46:30for what are the things that i'm really
46:32good at doing so that i can think like
46:34an investor so i can think like a
46:35customer and really drive the highest
46:37use of my time to learn and provide
46:39value in the world speaking of talking
46:42to other people this is the perfect time
46:45for you to ask questions to any of us
46:48especially for jerry and clement if you
46:52definitely raise your hand um turn on
46:54your video say hi introduce
46:56yourself and ask away
47:14so thomas did you get any questions from
47:17when um anyone submitted questions or
47:21i know last time there was a bunch of
47:23questions i was submitted in chat
47:27uh yeah i haven't gotten yet
47:37maybe everybody's playing fortnite and
47:42someone raised her hand i think
47:45um feel free to to ask questions
47:51so jerry what are some of your open
47:55positions available at welcome oh i'm
47:59no i mean we're hiring just about
48:03um like i sure you said right like or
48:06was it climate it's like when you have
48:07product market fit just like
48:08you can't handle the demand so we're
48:11hiring sales we're hiring
48:12engineering uh man what else are we
48:15hiring customer success
48:16customer support um you know i think
48:21i didn't appreciate how difficult it was
48:24now right because when i worked for
48:26companies before it's like i had teams
48:28of people to do hiring for me now it's
48:29just like i have to source people on
48:31on angel list on yc work at a startup
48:35like people apply like i never saw this
48:37before because before all the resumes
48:38that hit my desk were at least somewhat
48:41now it's like i have plumbers applying
48:42for engineering jobs i'm like what's
48:44going on like why would you
48:45why would you do this right so it's just
48:47it's really really difficult
48:49uh to hire the right people to source
48:52um so yeah i mean i'd love to hire more
48:55from berkeley because i'm a cow grad
48:58and to be perfectly honest i mean like
49:01they're cool and all but stanford is
49:04i have friends i go to stanford and it's
49:06like you can probably
49:08like sleep all class and still get like
49:11a b plus it's amazing
49:13like cow i remember like i don't know if
49:15it's still that way now but
49:16it was cut throat i mean yes 61a was
49:21uh a thousand people 61 b was like 500
49:24250 and by the time you graduated with
49:26like three people it's like
49:28it's like freaking hunger games you know
49:29so i like i like berkeley grads
49:32um i think that we are cut from a
49:37i agree um and actually i wanted to
49:41follow up and ask out of the positions
49:44looking for students on or just
49:46recruiting in general
49:47what are some of the ways the students
49:49can start to think about it especially a
49:51bunch of students have never worked for
49:53how's that like what are you looking for
49:56specifically from students
49:58so i think most of our hires are more
50:02um but once we have like the way i
50:05approach building teams is i think the
50:08has to be senior right and then once the
50:10senior people are on place they put
50:11together the infrastructure that allows
50:14them to coach and give like training
50:17wheels to more junior candidates i can
50:19only speak for engineering
50:20but uh if you let a bunch of
50:23like fresh college grads build welcome
50:25like it would be a disaster
50:27right it would just be a complete
50:28disaster because they wouldn't think
50:29about testing they wouldn't think about
50:30infrastructure they wouldn't think about
50:32there's a million things that you would
50:34never think about without getting
50:35punched in the face repeatedly
50:36and so as a student you've never been
50:39punched in the face so you wouldn't
50:40think about those things
50:41right and so uh what we try to do is we
50:44try to get a bunch of people that have
50:45been punched in the face
50:46so they know exactly what to build and
50:49then once they have that infrastructure
50:51then maybe in the time something like
50:55uh then we can bring out junior people
50:57that are hungry they're smart
50:59uh they're willing to be coached i think
51:01that's a really important thing because
51:02you know when you're young a lot of
51:03times you feel like you know it all
51:05right and in some ways yeah you are
51:09you know quicker maybe than um than
51:11somebody that like myself
51:13all right i take a little while to get
51:16but wisdom comes from like being in
51:20certain situations and knowing how to
51:24is really important right and that
51:25judgment only comes from the mentorship
51:27of somebody that's a little bit older so
51:29if i was joining a startup i would
51:33if i was in you know if i was back in
51:352005 i would probably join
51:37a startup uh with folks a little bit
51:40maybe 35 36 i don't know 37 something
51:44right um a very diverse team
51:47that's working on something cool like uh
51:49virtual events that would be a pretty
51:51cool point right um and i would want to
51:54join a startup where
51:56the leadership really cared about my own
51:59career development and coaching and
52:02so i think clement made a really good
52:05how long how to learn right learning how
52:07to learn is really important
52:09i've actually been a little bit of a
52:11student of this recently
52:12um just a science of learning in the
52:15almost exponential growth in your own
52:20and there's a um there's a model called
52:23the kobe's learning cycle
52:24so how the kobe's learning cycle works
52:28is you want to like learn a concept
52:32and then you want to apply that concept
52:34and then you want to get
52:35feedback and then you want to
52:38immediately apply that feedback back
52:39again so it's a cycle
52:41right it's a cycle of learning
52:42conceptually applying it concretely
52:45and then re giving yourself realistic
52:47feedback or having somebody else give
52:48you that feedback so you immediately
52:54in engineering i didn't really know how
52:56to apply this that much
52:57so i think my growth as an engineer was
52:59quite slow compared to my growth in
53:02so i've only been doing sales for two
53:04months but i really feel like
53:06because i've hired a sales coach and
53:08he's literally reviewing
53:09every single one of my sales right
53:10afterwards and he's like all right
53:12you did this wrong you did that wrong
53:13this was great but try this again now go
53:16right and so i'm literally doing call
53:18feedback call feedback call feedback
53:20and the learning is just crazy like the
53:23i can see my rate of improvement
53:24i can i can give you a video of my first
53:26sales call versus sales call i did today
53:29it's like night and day right um and so
53:32just that level of learning and
53:34being able to uh think about how to
53:37accelerate yourself exponentially is
53:40really really important
53:46definitely agree um i noticed that
53:49joshua asked in the group
53:50how big of a role does luck play when
53:55general question so for both of you
54:01i would say like one of the things about
54:04is that they're really a couple of core
54:08pieces that you really want to be
54:10watching out for in terms of how you're
54:11going to really get a startup to
54:13you know do really well and you know
54:14feel free to reach out to me i have like
54:16links to these articles that you can
54:17read up on them as well um but basically
54:19the core pieces that you really need to
54:21think about are like the thing that
54:22matters the most the most the most
54:24is the market right and so kind of as
54:26jerry's been mentioning right like
54:28um right now digital events are freaking
54:30huge because like right now is the
54:33that's not to say that markets don't
54:34shift over time right of course markets
54:37in terms of the you know mobile apps
54:39market that has clearly shifted
54:40ever since you know um when you were
54:43born all the way until like now or like
54:44it's been it's been totally different
54:45right so like markets aren't static
54:48but a really really amazing market is
54:52better than a great product that has no
54:53market or a great team that has no
54:55market right so like market is the most
54:58but that doesn't mean that that's
54:59necessarily luck because it's your
55:01choice on what market you want to attack
55:03right so there's market right and then
55:06kind of the product right or maybe even
55:08the problem right like what problem are
55:10you trying to attack
55:11in this market what is the way in which
55:12you want to build something for that and
55:14that's partially luck but also partially
55:17your own assessment right it's partially
55:20and and your own analytics of what is
55:22the thing that i think
55:23is really going to make this market
55:25actually want my product
55:27and of course you can have the greatest
55:28problem identified in a market
55:30and you can have like the greatest like
55:31product idea for it but you really need
55:34amazing team to go execute against that
55:37right because if you don't have a really
55:38good team to do that
55:39then now mess you up right and so kind
55:42of course yes there is a luck component
55:44in terms of who are the people that you
55:45right now but that doesn't mean that
55:47you're locked out by luck right because
55:48you can create your own lock right and
55:50i think really the overriding statement
55:52here is like luck plays a role in each
55:54of these three components
55:55of what market are you trying to attack
55:58like how good is that market
56:00what problem have you selected how did
56:02you know about that problem or like did
56:03you have prior experience to that
56:05and who are the people that you know who
56:06are the people you're bringing on but
56:08that doesn't mean that luck has to be
56:09the final determinant right
56:10just because you know that luck is there
56:12and there is chance does that mean that
56:13you need to let luck control you and so
56:16by knowing that you're trying to break
56:17down these three pieces of market
56:19problem to attack people to attack it
56:21with like that can really help you start
56:24more analytically of okay well what are
56:26the ways in which i can maximize the
56:29a really amazing market first and
56:30foremost and then go find a really
56:32awesome problem to attack in that market
56:34so i can find the right people to go
56:36attack that problem for that market
56:38hopefully that makes sense
56:43and how about you jerry what's your take
56:50it's tough question i think
56:54i mean i used to play a lot of poker
56:56right and poker a lot of people think is
56:59um which it is there's a certain amount
57:02it's also about knowing the hand that
57:05you the valley of your hand
57:07right the value of the potential uh
57:10cards that so left in the deck and most
57:14it's about reading other people so um
57:17i'll tell you guys a story okay so when
57:20selling my company to yahoo i was
57:23actually a solo founder so i was the
57:26roberto i don't know if he's still here
57:27he's my co-founder then but
57:29um you know i pretty much started the
57:32company and then brought him on
57:33later and so from an equity standpoint
57:38right i was the only one in a lot of
57:42and so when i was negotiating with yahoo
57:46um the guy that i was across from me was
57:50like you know bain mckenzie
57:53like vice president type like i could i
57:55could see him look in his lips as soon
57:56as he saw him he's like oh i'm gonna eat
57:59all right and like he's a single founder
58:01he doesn't have any investors
58:03like i'm gonna take him to the shed and
58:05then so for me i was just like a
58:07young impressionable engineer like i had
58:09no idea what i was doing
58:14the difference in that moment right so
58:15you can you can tell the odds were kind
58:16of stacked against me i think the
58:18and i think i i didn't appreciate it at
58:23for him like whether or not he got the
58:27in the transaction it was just another
58:28transaction right it was just part of
58:31for me i knew that it was going to be a
58:34life-changing amount of money
58:36if i could win right if i could win this
58:40and so what i did right you could say
58:43yeah and maybe it's just luck
58:44uh maybe you know there's a lot of lucky
58:48things that happen for me to get the
58:50i did but um i i tried as much as
58:53like i had a 2-7 he probably had pocket
58:55aces but i tried as much as possible
58:57to stack the chips in my favor so the
58:59first thing i did was like all right
59:00well where do i go to find out about
59:02negotiation lawyers i think the lawyers
59:05know a lot about negotiation
59:06and so i quickly found out that you call
59:08up any lawyer they'll give you an hour
59:12so what i did was i literally called
59:14every lawyer in the bay area
59:16that dealt with uh mergers and
59:18acquisitions maybe like
59:1940 of them right and so i got literally
59:2240 hours of free legal advice
59:25and by the end of it the these guys were
59:28you know a lot about this stuff right
59:30because i was like the more i talked to
59:32lawyers the more i understood so i was
59:33just like oh yeah yeah i started asking
59:35way more complicated questions
59:36and then by the end of that i felt a lot
59:38more prepared to go into this
59:41right and then so i distinctly remember
59:45walking into the room this is like a
59:49and i had studied right i had talked to
59:53all the relevant people
59:55and as i walked in i could tell that he
59:58it's like in poker you just tell right
01:00:01he he was sitting back he was he seemed
01:00:04like he was relaxed but i could tell
01:00:05that he was sweating i'm like
01:00:07bro are you sweating right it's gone um
01:00:10and so at that point because i played a
01:00:13lot poker i i knew that his hand was not
01:00:16as he was making it out to be so i
01:00:20spent the next hour just like
01:00:26i i don't even really know how to
01:00:27describe it but it was it was almost
01:00:30um i think he expected me i'm just an
01:00:32engineer right i'll just like
01:00:34fall over but i just went like
01:00:37thermonuclear right i literally brought
01:00:39out everything i had
01:00:41learned in like the past week and he was
01:00:43like whoa what what are you talking
01:00:45and i i distinctly remember how i ended
01:00:47that meeting and i'm not proud of this
01:00:49moment so don't do this
01:00:50but um at that time the
01:00:53the headline in the news was that yahoo
01:00:57acquired this company right it was it
01:00:59was started by like a 14 year old it was
01:01:01all over the news techcrunch and
01:01:02everything like that
01:01:04um and so i was kind of anchoring my
01:01:06price to what he got because he's like
01:01:07his 14 year old right he got acquired
01:01:10and then i i just think to remember like
01:01:11we were literally like
01:01:13almost yelling at each other we were
01:01:15like this close right
01:01:16um and i mean it's i i don't think i had
01:01:20to do that it's just like that's how i
01:01:21thought negotiations were it's like in
01:01:22the movies you just like yell at each
01:01:24and then so i remember the very last
01:01:26thing i did i was like okay time's up
01:01:28i said and then he he like made some
01:01:29point i made some point he made some
01:01:31point i made some point he made some
01:01:32point i made some point i don't even
01:01:33remember what said
01:01:34but the very last thing i said before i
01:01:35walked out the door was
01:01:37and i was trying to anchor remember i'm
01:01:38trying to anchor the price of this 14
01:01:41so i say i said his um i said listen
01:01:45at least i went through puberty and then
01:01:47i just slammed the door and i walked out
01:01:49now that was the end of my negotiation
01:01:51with yahoo and then as i was walking i
01:01:55i don't really know if that worked the
01:01:59my evaluation quadrupled
01:02:03right so so you could say hey there's a
01:02:05lot of luck there
01:02:07but number one i think the lesson i want
01:02:09you guys to take from this don't act
01:02:10like me i was an ass right don't act
01:02:12i was young i didn't really know any
01:02:14better but number one was you can stack
01:02:16the deck in your favor
01:02:18and number two whoever's willing to be
01:02:22bold right and to uh to actually
01:02:25like like put something on the table and
01:02:28act with conviction they usually win
01:02:30they usually end up on top
01:02:32right that's what i've noticed it's just
01:02:33like if you've got to be willing
01:02:35to act like strongly and with conviction
01:02:38the reason we picked our investors for
01:02:41our fundraising round
01:02:42they were just the first to like
01:02:44actually put something on the table
01:02:45everybody was hemming and hauling he's
01:02:46like oh i don't know evaluation
01:02:48this guy just came in bam turn sheet
01:02:52we're like all right bro i see you i see
01:02:55you you know i mean so i respect that
01:02:58the fact that somebody can make a convic
01:03:00a convicted decision and i think that's
01:03:02a really really powerful thing
01:03:08i think everyone is excited about that
01:03:10story i see so many nods
01:03:13in the cameras um
01:03:16let's see we had another question
01:03:23so one of the questions was what did you
01:03:25major in which you both briefly
01:03:27mentioned but you can mention again and
01:03:28how do you think your major has helped
01:03:30you shape your career where you are
01:03:38sure i'll go um yeah so again i double
01:03:41majored in business and biology which is
01:03:44an interesting combo although now
01:03:46interestingly we do have a business plus
01:03:48biology program um at berkeley so
01:03:50i'm jealous but oh well um really the
01:03:53way that i think about it
01:03:54is it wasn't the knowledge in each major
01:03:57that was the most important thing for me
01:03:59it was that meta learning that i got for
01:04:00each major that really mattered right it
01:04:02was the mindsets that i brought with me
01:04:03into my work that were the most
01:04:05important things right so
01:04:06if you said like climate like recite to
01:04:07me krebs psycho photosynthesis mitosis
01:04:10whatever i'd be like i have no idea
01:04:11right like it's already been like 10
01:04:13years since freshman year right
01:04:14um and so i know nothing about biology
01:04:18learning how to be a biologist was
01:04:20really crucial because it forced me to
01:04:22memorize things really quickly to think
01:04:23in terms of systems right like the thing
01:04:25in biology right like when a cell is
01:04:27like dividing or doing whatever
01:04:29right like there are all these different
01:04:30processes that are all connected i have
01:04:33turning this one knob changes this knob
01:04:34which changes that knob and the thing is
01:04:36in business it's exactly the same right
01:04:38like when you change the way that one
01:04:39person does something
01:04:40it completely alters the end outcome
01:04:42right so thinking in terms of
01:04:44systems was really important as a
01:04:45biologist thinking in terms of
01:04:47hypotheses to be proven or disproven
01:04:48through experiments
01:04:50really important right because the thing
01:04:51is when you're going into
01:04:53you know create a startup when you're
01:04:54going into try to find product market
01:04:57you have a lot of thoughts but you
01:04:58really need to go try to figure out okay
01:04:59but what is actually out there what is
01:05:01the actual market
01:05:02that i'm trying to go after and what is
01:05:04the actual real problem that they have
01:05:06not my perception of their problem but
01:05:08the actual problem in reality and so
01:05:10thinking like a scientist is really
01:05:11important in terms of okay but what's
01:05:13the data what's the evidence how have i
01:05:15disproved all of these alternative
01:05:16potential explanations right so
01:05:18as a scientist that was really really
01:05:20important for me to learn
01:05:22because of course as a product manager
01:05:23right like i have to go look through all
01:05:25these analytics but also all of this
01:05:26qualitative information of how people
01:05:28are using my software my products
01:05:30to think through okay they're doing this
01:05:32thing do they actually want to do this
01:05:35actually like explained by some other
01:05:36hypothesis right so thinking like a
01:05:38scientist really really important
01:05:40and on the flip side in terms of having
01:05:41that business major i think
01:05:43that was really valuable in terms of me
01:05:45being able to learn soft skills just in
01:05:47terms of being able to work with people
01:05:49speaking back to jerry's point one of
01:05:50the things that i always thought in
01:05:52terms of negotiations was that you had
01:05:54make the other person lose right i
01:05:55always thought it was a zero-sum game
01:05:57you both scream at each other and then
01:05:59the person who screams the loudest is
01:06:00the winner who gets the most money right
01:06:02like that's what i thought
01:06:03but one of the things that i learned in
01:06:04negotiations class is that that's not
01:06:05how the world works right like
01:06:07the way that the world works is
01:06:08different people have different
01:06:09preferences right and so
01:06:11even if two people are looking at the
01:06:13same set of things that they're trying
01:06:14to negotiate in between
01:06:16due to their inherent preferences they
01:06:18will value some things more than others
01:06:19and so you can actually expand the size
01:06:22you can give each party something that
01:06:23they want so as they don't want the same
01:06:25thing with the same priority
01:06:26and you can actually make everyone
01:06:28really happy through negotiations right
01:06:31doing that customer discovery of okay
01:06:32well what does the other person
01:06:34really actually need and want and
01:06:37and so i think from a business
01:06:38perspective it really taught me about
01:06:40think about how do people organize
01:06:43together how do people make decisions
01:06:45how do people like create value together
01:06:48and so having that business component
01:06:50that made it a lot more straightforward
01:06:52for me to be able to
01:06:53speak to businesses about okay i see
01:06:55that one of the things that you're
01:06:56really worried about is
01:06:57turn times because that's messing with
01:06:58your opex and because that messes with
01:07:00your opex that messes with
01:07:01um you know how good you look to
01:07:03investors or whatever right like
01:07:04understanding that you know my customers
01:07:06themselves have investors and that
01:07:07they're worried about their investors or
01:07:09that they let themselves have employees
01:07:10and they're worried about making their
01:07:11employees happy right like
01:07:12makes it much easier for me to have very
01:07:14productive conversations with them of
01:07:16okay well i see that you're not adopting
01:07:18my product and i see that you're having
01:07:19struggles with it
01:07:20let's talk about the different ways in
01:07:21which it might not be satisfying your
01:07:23needs because i understand the way that
01:07:24your business runs right and so i think
01:07:26in terms of the two together it really
01:07:29forced me to be able to do both hard
01:07:31skills and soft skills
01:07:32and so one of the things that i really
01:07:34appreciate about product management
01:07:36is that you are always working that
01:07:39fine line in between like working
01:07:41through working with like sales and
01:07:42marketing in terms of painting this
01:07:43really amazing vision
01:07:45but also getting all the way into the
01:07:46technical and integrity of like oh darn
01:07:48like there is currently a production
01:07:50like our product is no longer working
01:07:51right now because all of the code has
01:07:54trapped itself right like there's some
01:07:55bug in the code we need to figure this
01:07:56out right there's a race condition
01:07:57something's wrong
01:07:58and being able to work through in a very
01:08:00measured way okay well we have to roll
01:08:02out this hypothesis because that's not
01:08:03the way that this thing broke
01:08:04actually the way that this thing broke
01:08:06was probably this can we prove this and
01:08:07just like really trying to tease it all
01:08:09out and so i'd say like
01:08:10one of the things that i would encourage
01:08:12is based on your current major whether
01:08:14it is a soft skill based one or a hard
01:08:16first identify the meta learning that
01:08:18you're going to get from that right like
01:08:19is it going to help me
01:08:20learn to be more structured is it going
01:08:22to help me learn to interact with people
01:08:24and a lot more empathetic of a way
01:08:26and then the second piece is okay well
01:08:28i'm gonna have these skill sets for sure
01:08:29because this is my major
01:08:30but what are the skill sets that i'm
01:08:32missing and is it important for me
01:08:34to diversify into these skill sets or is
01:08:36it okay for me to learn these things
01:08:37later right and so
01:08:38as an example one of the things that you
01:08:41i one of the things that i actively gave
01:08:44up on when i was studying at cal is i
01:08:46actively gave up on computer science
01:08:48right and kind of the rationale there
01:08:49is you know i can i can
01:08:53learn about computer science through
01:08:54like hack record or code academy of
01:08:56course not like in a very like rigorous
01:08:58formal way but like i can learn how to
01:09:00in other ways or i can write my own apps
01:09:01in other ways but there's no way i'm
01:09:03going to become a biol
01:09:04like a biological research scientist
01:09:06outside of school there's just no way
01:09:07that i can self-teach myself that
01:09:09and so i said i have to learn this in
01:09:11school right now because there's no
01:09:12other way for me to get this information
01:09:13right and so kind of thinking about
01:09:15yourself in terms of portfolio what is
01:09:17what are the things that i'm missing out
01:09:19on is it okay that i'm missing out on
01:09:20these things or should i go get those
01:09:21things right now like making those
01:09:23prioritization calls
01:09:24is really important as you think about
01:09:25again that meta learning of what is it
01:09:27that i'm learning about what i'm
01:09:28so that's how i'd say like my two majors
01:09:30kind of really helped me think through
01:09:36and jerry how about yourself
01:09:39uh sorry what was the question the
01:09:42what did you major in what you mentioned
01:09:44you were eeks but how do you think your
01:09:46major has helped you shape your career
01:09:48to where you are right now um i think
01:09:50your story is also relevant given you
01:09:52uh clement obviously did bio um and then
01:09:56you did each but then you're shifting
01:09:57into sales so it almost feels like you
01:10:00done something quite technical and then
01:10:01shifted into something more
01:10:03uh but jerry what do you think about
01:10:07well i'll be on a show i was never a
01:10:09very good engineer
01:10:11i mean i was like a meets expectations
01:10:14engineer if you know what
01:10:15oh come on so i was never really that
01:10:17good at it i think i went into it
01:10:20um you know i mean i like computers and
01:10:22stuff and uh i like money
01:10:24so it's like oh what major makes the
01:10:26most money because like
01:10:27geeks done when they do weeks right um
01:10:30and so for me i think what i really got
01:10:34doing eek specifically is just
01:10:37because because i wasn't the best
01:10:39student i was like an average student in
01:10:42but because of that i was just like oh
01:10:43shoot like i better
01:10:45step my game up like i remember cs61b
01:10:49shin was in that class with me i don't
01:10:51know if he still teaches there but
01:10:52there's a guy named uh hill finger
01:10:54yes yeah he's still there
01:10:58oh man that guy was cooking and so
01:11:01i would just like dread going to 61b
01:11:03because i knew that it was on a curve
01:11:05and all this stuff right
01:11:06i barely passed that class um but i
01:11:10from all that experience like i i knew
01:11:13like just kind of how to think
01:11:15critically a little bit better um
01:11:17how to i mean how to
01:11:20uh how to solve problems i think that's
01:11:23like i think the your framework for
01:11:25solving problems is actually really
01:11:28now that i'm doing sales and it's more
01:11:30than just sales i'm basically
01:11:32in charge of go to market right for
01:11:34welcome so that's sales that's marketing
01:11:35that's customer success that's customer
01:11:37something i've never done before but i
01:11:39think because of my experience at
01:11:41it's like oh i can figure it out this is
01:11:43just an engineering problem right
01:11:46there's outputs there's variables right
01:11:48it's a little bit different than
01:11:48building a product but i i kind of
01:11:50approach it like building a product like
01:11:51when i hire people
01:11:52and they're like hey we have this
01:11:53problem in that problem because of my ex
01:11:55background i can be like
01:11:57hmm well how do we automate that like
01:11:59how do we solve that in code can we
01:12:00write um you know an application that
01:12:04interfaces with salesforce and marketo
01:12:06our product to get the relevant data
01:12:08it's like oh okay we seem to be doing
01:12:09this quite often can we actually script
01:12:11can we do all the billing and stripe and
01:12:13actually get it into salesforce and
01:12:14script it so we don't do it anymore
01:12:16right um and the cool thing about that
01:12:18is like it doesn't really require a
01:12:19brilliant engineer to do it
01:12:21it just requires the ability to kind of
01:12:24think outside the box a little bit
01:12:26right and when you talk about go to
01:12:27market like we're a b2b sas company
01:12:30and so every percentage point that we
01:12:33in terms of efficiency in terms of our
01:12:35metrics is huge it could be
01:12:37end up being billions of dollars in
01:12:39market value right
01:12:41um whereas on the engineering side it's
01:12:43a little bit tougher
01:12:44to really measure like okay yeah we have
01:12:47a great code base we have 100 code
01:12:48coverage but like what what does that
01:12:50really mean for the business
01:12:51right it's really hard to draw a
01:12:52straight line from a to b
01:12:54and so even though i'm not doing
01:12:56engineering anymore
01:12:57i think the lessons that i learned from
01:12:59problem solving and just like
01:13:00optimization is hugely applicable i
01:13:06i know we have one more question that's
01:13:08sent in group chat but in our last few
01:13:10minutes i thought it's actually quite a
01:13:11rare opportunity we have both sin and
01:13:15so it might be interesting to also get
01:13:16their perspectives given that
01:13:18obviously running a startup is not a
01:13:20one-person job there's a team
01:13:22and everyone collaborates and has
01:13:25you know matching skills to put it
01:13:27together would love to have
01:13:28either of you chime in if you guys are
01:13:30open to talk a little bit about
01:13:32what's it like working with jerry sure
01:13:35i can talk about that so i've known
01:13:37jerry since we were
01:13:3914 actually so uh i'm
01:13:42went to berkeley with him for quick so
01:13:46you know and we worked together at yahoo
01:13:50roberto was also there and after that i
01:13:53i actually quit quit jerry's like he was
01:13:56my manager and i quit and went to
01:13:58databricks which is also a very
01:14:00popular berkeley startup actually also
01:14:05yeah and then so working with jerry well
01:14:08i think since we know each other for
01:14:10such a long time we kind of like
01:14:12we try to ring each other in a bit i
01:14:15think so like uh and um
01:14:19yeah and then so i'm i'm basically
01:14:22engineering with jerry's brother tiger
01:14:26um and then there's a lot of different
01:14:30pretty much but yeah so
01:14:33so it's interesting i think and jerry
01:14:37really into sales lately so i actually
01:14:40fired him from engineering
01:14:45yeah so that's that's i mean any
01:14:48specific questions
01:14:50you're being too nice you're being too
01:14:54terry's a handful i'm sorry to crash a
01:14:57party guys i just been listening in
01:14:58and um glad you guys are having jerry on
01:15:02he's a i call him a unicorn uh because
01:15:05he can just do a lot of things really
01:15:07i don't know if that's credit to
01:15:08berkeley or to his father
01:15:10but um he's he's that kind of guy so
01:15:13it's been fun we've been working
01:15:14together for over 10 years i think
01:15:16what i find interesting about finding
01:15:20somebody that you can
01:15:22work with but also have fun with the
01:15:25the thing about jerry and i we happen to
01:15:27work together on a fantasy sports
01:15:29project and that was fun but after that
01:15:32we still said hey we want to go build
01:15:36and we had our series of failures and a
01:15:38couple successes in between
01:15:39but we just knew that we just wanted to
01:15:42and we said look whatever we do let's
01:15:51oh roberto i think
01:15:55you you might be unmuted rob you're
01:15:59oh okay did i cut off you cut off a
01:16:03oh so you didn't you didn't hear the
01:16:04embarrassing part that i was talking
01:16:06okay it's all good okay i'll skip that
01:16:09all to say all to say that it's been
01:16:10it's been fun but i think
01:16:12you know a lesson learned since you guys
01:16:13sort of like talk about lesson learns
01:16:16um is work with people that you enjoy
01:16:19i think that's super important and uh
01:16:21jerry and i happen to
01:16:23to mesh pretty well we balance each
01:16:25other's other out pretty well
01:16:27if you can see jerry has a contagious
01:16:30and that's only magnified now because
01:16:34um but uh you know we have this whole
01:16:37jerry tends to put an exclamation mark
01:16:41and i follow up and kind of like bump a
01:16:43question mark right next to exclamation
01:16:45before we move forward right so it's
01:16:47like if you let jerry go he'll just run
01:16:50100 miles an hour which is really good
01:16:51especially for startups
01:16:53um and i think that we've learned to
01:16:54balance each other out over the last
01:16:5610 years working together yeah i'll
01:16:59follow that up with one more thing
01:17:01it's that um you know we talked about
01:17:04like whether to do a startup when you're
01:17:06young when you're old
01:17:07to me the most valuable thing and i mean
01:17:10everybody says this but it's the people
01:17:12that you do it with
01:17:13right i'm kind of old school like i'm a
01:17:17so like if somebody's riding with me for
01:17:18a while and i think roberto's like this
01:17:20uh like like we're ride or die you know
01:17:23what i mean like it doesn't matter what
01:17:25it doesn't matter uh what phase of our
01:17:27career we're in like me and roberto and
01:17:29shin like we're tight
01:17:30like we're going to be riding with each
01:17:31other hopefully forever right
01:17:33and i i think that part of
01:17:36um part of the issue that i see
01:17:39with people that are trying to climb
01:17:42their career is that they put their
01:17:44career over their relationships
01:17:46but i think it's really important to
01:17:49solid relationships early on in your
01:17:52and you know it's tough because
01:17:54sometimes you have to put the
01:17:55relationship ahead of business
01:17:57right and there's been there's been
01:17:58times when roberto's put our
01:18:00relationship ahead of his business
01:18:01interest there's been times when i've
01:18:03his our relationship ahead of business
01:18:07um i think at the end of the day like
01:18:09that type of bond
01:18:11is worth more than
01:18:14uh equity right it is because
01:18:17startups are full of ups and downs so if
01:18:20you can't find somebody that you
01:18:21absolutely trust and that you'll go to
01:18:23the ends of the earthquakes it's really
01:18:25really hard i mean
01:18:26i'm i'm doing a startup with my best
01:18:27friends and my brother
01:18:29right and my dad like my dad's here too
01:18:31right so it's like uh
01:18:33you know those bonds come ahead of any
01:18:35any type of business relationship
01:18:36and i think that's i mean not everybody
01:18:39you know thinks that's a good thing like
01:18:41to mix business and um relationships but
01:18:44i personally think it's great um
01:18:47if your relationship is solid i think it
01:18:49can really enhance
01:18:51uh the business yeah i i would like to
01:18:55so in our fundraising actually uh
01:18:58the two big firms that decided to give
01:19:01us term sheets were
01:19:02intros from my other friends from
01:19:06other best friend is also named jerry he
01:19:08was also berkeley
01:19:10so he's he's a vc now after many years
01:19:13so so then you never know you just gotta
01:19:16keep your friendships kind of deep and
01:19:20and keep on checking in and you never
01:19:21know who will help you
01:19:23later i think it's
01:19:26great but uh jerry your dad is here and
01:19:28also sienna and roberto were able to
01:19:30chime in because i think most of the
01:19:32time we hear from one person and kind of
01:19:33don't get that multi-faceted view of
01:19:36what's it like to actually work with um
01:19:39or work on a startup with an entire team
01:19:41with relationships built over a long
01:19:43time actually in the first lecture we
01:19:45were talking about how
01:19:46you know the average time it takes for a
01:19:48startup to be built to anything close to
01:19:51exit is you know on average at least 10
01:19:54which is longer than the average
01:19:55american marriage unfortunately
01:19:58so we were talking about how it's
01:19:59important to think carefully about who
01:20:01you work with and it is
01:20:02exactly those long-term relationships
01:20:04built over time so i think that's a
01:20:06great perspective for
01:20:07students um online right now um
01:20:10i thank you um clement for answering
01:20:14mahika's question on chat i know we had
01:20:16one last hand raise
01:20:18um if we have time to take one last
01:20:22um letting our panelists go would it be
01:20:24okay if we do one last question
01:20:27yeah okay perfect um we had a hand raise
01:20:30who was the hand raised
01:20:34um i think yeah yeah he's just um
01:20:37so yeah yeah hi my name is milo um
01:20:40and i'm curious you know how do you go
01:20:44you know building a product for yourself
01:20:46and your friends you know like fantasy
01:20:49and then saying oh i want to make this
01:20:50bigger uh you know
01:20:52find a product market fit for it
01:20:59so the question is like how do you go
01:21:01from like uh doing fantasy football to
01:21:03something completely different
01:21:05yeah just something like oh this is what
01:21:08to what i can do for other people
01:21:13i think um you know it's funny because
01:21:17when i look back at it it's like this
01:21:19idea was really obvious because roberto
01:21:21and tiger have done events for a while
01:21:23um but we didn't really put it together
01:21:25i still remember like we were going
01:21:26through yc right and
01:21:28why see if you don't have a good startup
01:21:30idea it's really obvious because like
01:21:32you have these office hours every
01:21:34week and then like or every two weeks
01:21:36and then everybody's
01:21:37like has this like traction up to the
01:21:39right and then every week
01:21:41we're just coming in like the you know
01:21:43students in the back of the class not
01:21:44really saying anything right
01:21:45and so you're just like okay we're we
01:21:48are not doing well guys we are not doing
01:21:51um and so we just had
01:21:54we went to the drawing board over and
01:21:56over and over again
01:21:58but it's we just never thought of this
01:22:01i don't know why we just never thought
01:22:02of it the idea was right in front of our
01:22:05and now that you know we're launched i'm
01:22:08just like this is the most
01:22:10fun i've ever had in my career because
01:22:11not only is our product like
01:22:13really cool but um our customers are
01:22:16amazing because we
01:22:18our product positions we only focus on
01:22:20high-end events so that means we have
01:22:22the biggest investors um on our platform
01:22:26right that's kind of how we grew we grew
01:22:28in the venture community because all
01:22:29these like really well-known investors
01:22:31on welcome and they would get their
01:22:33firms to buy welcome and they would get
01:22:34their firms to buy welcome and so now
01:22:36you know all these investors know about
01:22:38us but then their portfolio companies
01:22:40know about us right so we have these big
01:22:42ceos that come on our platform to speak
01:22:44and then we have celebrities that come
01:22:46on our platform to speak and
01:22:47so it's just kind of like sometimes i'm
01:22:49just like watching these events
01:22:51it's almost like having backstage passes
01:22:53to every exclusive party in the world
01:22:55because there's no real parties right so
01:22:56all the exclusive ones are unwelcome
01:22:59right so it's amazing it's just like wow
01:23:01this is this is really cool
01:23:03um i never would have predicted that i
01:23:06going to all these exclusive events and
01:23:08they would be on my platform and i never
01:23:10would have predicted that i could be
01:23:11using my platform to advance causes that
01:23:14like we're hosting sure you're probably
01:23:15going to be there we're actually going
01:23:16to be hosting the all raise conference
01:23:19yeah so um it's not the morning session
01:23:22that's hop in but
01:23:23the evening session will be on welcome
01:23:25and it's the the most uh
01:23:27i think it's the largest organization of
01:23:28female vcs in the world right
01:23:30uh and we believe a lot in diversity and
01:23:32inclusion and just being able to like
01:23:34not just say it but have a platform we
01:23:37donated our platform to advance that
01:23:39is really cool um and so
01:23:43you know being able to bring all of that
01:23:45together not just your personal
01:23:46interests but your values
01:23:48your mission um all into your company
01:23:52uh i think it's an amazing thing and
01:23:54that part i think i kind of looked into
01:23:56because i didn't plan for it right it
01:23:58just kind of happened
01:23:59and and it's uh it's really amazing i
01:24:02can't really describe how it happened
01:24:06and clement anything else you want to
01:24:09sure yeah so many different products
01:24:11unless you have loans in all of these
01:24:13different categories
01:24:15no no no um so you know speaking
01:24:17specifically to you know
01:24:19currently like i'm currently building a
01:24:21product that's for me or for my friends
01:24:23right and i want to scale from this
01:24:24zero to one right because i found a
01:24:26niche audience it's me and my friends
01:24:28i want to scale from one to n right like
01:24:30i want to be able to reach a larger
01:24:32one of the things that's very nice is
01:24:34that having a product even exist
01:24:36is itself a really great way to be able
01:24:37to get feedback right and so the thing
01:24:39once a product exists people are going
01:24:41to engage with you whether it is
01:24:43through like send me in like support
01:24:44tickets whether it's just like talking
01:24:46with you for coffee chats whether it's
01:24:47like during a demo at a booth people are
01:24:50all of that is really great feedback but
01:24:52then it's on you to figure out like how
01:24:53do i want to prioritize this feedback
01:24:55and identify okay well there's all of
01:24:57these different pieces
01:24:58which one do i actually want to go
01:24:59tackle right and so to speak really
01:25:05so i co-founded product manager hq with
01:25:08kevin lee right and so basically the
01:25:09pain that we were trying to solve just
01:25:10for ourselves is we're currently product
01:25:12managers and we have no idea how to be
01:25:13product managers right like we are
01:25:15completely new to this
01:25:16we don't have like the greatest like
01:25:18mentorship in the world maybe we don't
01:25:19have the greatest access resources we
01:25:20don't know what the hell we're doing and
01:25:22let's go grab some other product
01:25:24managers and just throw them into a
01:25:26community just throw them in slack and
01:25:28talk like let's just talk about what are
01:25:29the challenges that each of us are
01:25:31as this community was talking right like
01:25:33as we were talking we started to
01:25:35you know riff off of each other but we
01:25:37started noticing well
01:25:38we're not really like getting new
01:25:40insights in the community right like
01:25:41we're all just here on our own right
01:25:43like how can we bring in new ideas
01:25:45and so based on the pains that we were
01:25:46seeing and hearing from the people who
01:25:49oh well okay one of the challenges is
01:25:53not able to learn more than the
01:25:54information that's within our own heads
01:25:56how can we get more information into
01:25:57this community right and so
01:25:59that's when we started the newsletter
01:26:01and so we started the product manager hq
01:26:03newsletter which currently has 30k
01:26:04weekly subscribers
01:26:05um so that we can go look across the web
01:26:08what are the best product management
01:26:10resources whether it's design
01:26:12marketing sales engineering what have
01:26:13you and really condense it down so that
01:26:15like only the most
01:26:16crucial parts are surface to our
01:26:19communities that we can grow and of
01:26:21once we built this out for community we
01:26:22noticed okay well other people would
01:26:24benefit from a newsletter so we opened
01:26:25it up for more people
01:26:26and of course we got feedback from our
01:26:30okay well these articles resonate these
01:26:32articles don't and like we had to
01:26:33work through and prioritize that right
01:26:35and so that's partially like how we
01:26:37started moving from zero
01:26:38to one to one to n right and then from
01:26:41there we have the community
01:26:42we had the newsletter feeding into us
01:26:44but now one of the things that we
01:26:45started noticing is well we have all
01:26:47that other people don't really know
01:26:48about like one of the things that's very
01:26:49difficult right now
01:26:50is there's a lot of business to consumer
01:26:53product management resources out there
01:26:55but there's not a ton of business to
01:26:56business product manager resources out
01:26:58there right and so
01:26:59that was one of the pains that i
01:27:00identified as a b to bpm
01:27:02as i said what if i wrote about my own
01:27:04experiences right so i started writing
01:27:06and so i wrote like an article every
01:27:07single week right for like 52 weeks
01:27:09straight including all the way through
01:27:11and by doing so people would reach out
01:27:13over email over linkedin over phone
01:27:15calls over facebook and they'd say
01:27:16clement this is such a great article but
01:27:18like why didn't you talk about this
01:27:19thing or like clement could you talk
01:27:21about that other thing instead and like
01:27:22that then gave me all these other
01:27:24alternatives all these different avenues
01:27:26and then through that like kind of
01:27:27iterate through okay but what target
01:27:29segment do i want to go after what is
01:27:31the thing that's going to yield the most
01:27:32value for the market that i want to go
01:27:34the thing is you can't just chase
01:27:36everything that someone throws at you
01:27:37there are so many different perspectives
01:27:39right so many different people have all
01:27:41wants and wishes from you what you
01:27:43really want to focus on is the people
01:27:45who would be most disappointed
01:27:47if your product didn't exist right if
01:27:48your product stopped existing
01:27:50they'd be so so disappointed you want to
01:27:52focus in on them and really understand
01:27:54okay what are the things that are really
01:27:56bothering them or what are the things
01:27:57that are really critical gaps for them
01:27:59because they're the ones who are going
01:27:59to be evangelizing your product to other
01:28:02which then enables you to get even more
01:28:04feedback from all of these new users who
01:28:07and use that as your engine basically to
01:28:08keep iterating your product
01:28:10so that you go from just an idea that i
01:28:12had it's an idea that serves me
01:28:14and my friends can idea that serves me
01:28:15my friends and my community to something
01:28:17that serves me my friends my community
01:28:19business space within this market
01:28:21hopefully that makes sense
01:28:23perfect um and i think that brings us
01:28:26to the perfect close um because i think
01:28:30students are exploring uh whether it's
01:28:32building their own product and solving
01:28:34their own problems to you know growing
01:28:36um i think there'll be a lot of
01:28:38opportunities for them to work with
01:28:41um you know others at cal as well as
01:28:44um even the broader cal alumni um
01:28:47um so i think this is a really great way
01:28:50of at least bridging
01:28:51you know alumni and experienced
01:28:54with current students um so hopefully um
01:28:58we've given you a little bit of new
01:29:00perspectives today
01:29:01um more food for thought um thank you
01:29:04very much jerry and clement as well as
01:29:06sin roberto and jerry's dad for joining
01:29:10um really excited um that we were able
01:29:13this time together um thomas i will hand
01:29:16it over to you to close
01:29:19yeah uh with that just thank you guys so
01:29:22much for um coming in and then
01:29:24um it was very informative um
01:29:28and with that i think that's it for
01:29:32thank you guys again thank you very much
01:29:35thanks for having me guys thanks so much