00:00Instagram is one of the biggest social
00:02media platforms on the planet it has
00:04evolved a lot throughout the years from
00:06stories to reels and during that time
00:09Instagram has served as a springboard
00:11for a lot of today's top creators but is
00:14there still opportunity for new creators
00:16on Instagram back in the day you know it
00:18was less saturated it was a lot easier
00:21to grow you didn't have to have a
00:22specific Niche you did
00:24you did content machine
00:26hooking people's attention in
00:28milliseconds now you do that's Natalie
00:31Ellis the co-founder and CEO of Boss
00:34babe it started with really sassy like
00:37tongue-in-cheek entrepreneurship
00:39ambitious quotes and that really took
00:42off because we were speaking directly to
00:45a certain Persona and that really really
00:47worked today the boss babe account has
00:50more than 3.5 million followers on
00:52Instagram and what I love about Natalie
00:54as a Creator is that she's not just
00:56building a personal brand she's actually
00:58building an organization the way I think
01:00about my business is more
01:02entrepreneurial than from kind of a
01:04creative perspective I don't think about
01:05building a really lean team where I'm
01:08running everything I think about
01:09building a real business that can run
01:12with or without me so in this episode
01:14you'll learn what's working today on
01:16Instagram how to make content that
01:17actually gets shared how to turn your
01:19followers into email subscribers and why
01:22you need to be open to change if you're
01:23building your business on Instagram and
01:25now let's talk Natalie
01:42talk to me about the past
01:44four or five years has it felt as fast
01:47as it sounds when I listen to you talk
01:49about the story yes and no it has
01:52actually these for the first two years
01:54it felt like it just was this hockey
01:57stick growth it took off so fast and you
02:01know part of that was I prepared for
02:03that I came into password with a lot of
02:05brand Equity myself and as boss babe as
02:07a community had a lot of equity in that
02:10it was not necessarily monetized but I
02:12feel like we didn't start from zero we
02:14didn't start from scratch we've been
02:16building this community I'd been
02:17building my own brand and so when it
02:20took off it was almost like this perfect
02:23storm of we had all the ingredients like
02:26when baking something we had all the
02:27ingredients we should never put it in
02:28the oven and as soon as we were ready to
02:30we did that and then it was hockey stick
02:33growth and that brings with its
02:36challenges too it's not always just
02:37sunshine and rainbows so it has in a way
02:40felt fast but then the scaling
02:42challenges I think are the moments that
02:44slows things down and makes it feel like
02:46this is never going to end am I ever
02:48gonna be able to catch my tail and I I
02:50think all entrepreneurs go through that
02:52and I think your business has Seasons
02:53where some feel fast some feel slow but
02:56some days it does feel like did I just
02:58start this in my bedroom two minutes ago
03:03well help me deconstruct this a little
03:08quickly and they're hearing you talk
03:09about like the the brand Equity you had
03:10in yourself and in your community can
03:12you help us put some tangibility behind
03:15that understand what that Equity looked
03:17like or felt like that allowed for this
03:20quick growth for us it was building an
03:23audience and community so that was in
03:25two ways boss babe we'd been building a
03:27boss babe audience and Community for a
03:29long time so we had followers we had an
03:31email list and with my personal brand
03:33same thing and as I was building those
03:37audiences I didn't necessarily know what
03:39I was building for what it was going to
03:41be but I knew what I was passionate
03:43about which is you know entrepreneurship
03:45and I was just sharing content around
03:47those lines and I think there's a lot to
03:50be said for building an audience I
03:53especially the economy we're in now I
03:55talk about your insurance it's almost
03:58um audiences being your insurance policy
04:01so no matter what's going on externally
04:04and around you you know whether it's
04:06Facebook ad costs Rising or just
04:08stopping working completely or
04:10advertisers pulling out of brand deals
04:13you've got this audience and community
04:14that are there for you and that is very
04:17monetizable if you're providing value
04:18and something that I think we did right
04:21was build audience and Community First
04:23and that's one thing that I'll always
04:25take into any other business I start
04:27after this is really thinking about
04:29distribution not just product thinking
04:32about okay if I'm building something who
04:34am I selling it to if I'm constantly
04:35reliant on other people's audiences and
04:39add dollars to get my product out and
04:41seen by people is that really the right
04:43way of doing things let's take one step
04:46back for people who maybe not as
04:48familiar with the the boss Babe's story
04:50when you were building community and
04:52doing events what did that look like and
04:55for how long so building Community for
04:58us just looked like posting on Instagram
05:00and we were posting really Niche content
05:03on Instagram it started with really
05:06sassy like tongue in antique
05:08entrepreneurship ambitious quotes and
05:12that really took off because we were
05:13speaking directly to a certain Persona
05:16and that really really worked on my
05:19personal brand it was bringing people
05:20behind the scenes of my first business
05:23what I was building and really showing
05:26that the ups and downs of that I didn't
05:28know I was going to monetize that but it
05:29was really showing the journey and
05:31through doing those things we were just
05:33able to build and attract an audience of
05:36really like-minded ambitious women who
05:39wanted to follow along for the content
05:40and through doing so got to know boss
05:45did you have an intentional insight to
05:48say not only am I going to share content
05:50on the I am Natalie Instagram page but
05:52I'm also going to build this separate
05:55brand to do this because I feel like a
05:57lot of people in this position they're
05:58posting to Instagram they're sharing
06:00things it's on their name when should
06:01they be thinking about creating an
06:04entity that has its own name and its own
06:06like personality almost versus just
06:09really doubling down on their their own
06:11name I didn't think about it so bossy
06:14was an account was started by someone
06:15else and I came into support with that a
06:18little bit later down the line a couple
06:19years in I didn't really think it was
06:21going to turn into anything and
06:23eventually I started to feel really
06:24passionate about the community and I
06:26bought it outright but I didn't go in
06:28with the intention of let me build this
06:30brand that doesn't have my face on it
06:32when I had my supplement company which
06:34was before boss babe I actually built
06:37that audience before I built my own
06:39audience because I never thought of
06:40myself as someone that wanted to be you
06:42know in front of the camera I loved
06:44being behind the camera and I would post
06:46curated content from our customers or
06:50like content I was sourcing online and
06:52we built an audience and this was
06:54way back when this was early days of
06:56Instagram we built an audience of about
06:5835 000 people on there which was huge at
07:01the time not saying it's not huge now it
07:03was huge at the time and it meant that
07:05when I launched this business because I
07:07had zero marketing budget to work with
07:08when I launched this first business I
07:10had this audience that I could sell to
07:12and we were shipping to over 60
07:13countries in a matter of weeks it
07:16happened very quickly because I was
07:17building an audience so early early on
07:19before I even had a brand I understood
07:21that there was power in building an
07:23audience online and especially Instagram
07:24at the time it was really powerful from
07:27there I started posting on my own
07:28account discovered that was this boss
07:30babe account started supporting on there
07:32too and it really happened organically
07:34from there so at the time that you were
07:36beginning to support the boss babe
07:38account and you're starting to post on
07:39your own what was the game like then for
07:42Instagram what was working well what did
07:44what did audience Building look like at
07:47static posts that were very shareable
07:50and they didn't necessarily have to have
07:52a face in them if you had a face in them
07:55it was a lot of like Fitness industry
07:57that was popping off at the time but
07:59also pictures of your food very
08:02Pinterest worthy pictures everything was
08:04perfect and Polished and set up and
08:07staged so that that was what was working
08:09on my food account or on Boss Bay really
08:12tongue-in-cheek sassy quotes and it
08:16taught me a lot about going viral and
08:17that hasn't changed what went viral back
08:20then isn't necessarily going viral now
08:22but the real meaning behind it why it
08:25went viral is exactly the same now so
08:27back then what I noticed is the quotes
08:29that were going viral were the things
08:31that people really wanted to say that
08:33women wanted to say but didn't want to
08:34say it themselves and so they would
08:36repost it onto their own accounts or
08:39they would like it they would tag people
08:41in it or even just by liking it they
08:43felt almost validated by it because we
08:45were saying the things that they felt
08:47and they wanted to say as Instagram
08:49started to develop and add more features
08:52and especially stories that was huge
08:54because same thing was going viral but
08:56it meant that people could share it on
08:57their stories and almost use our content
08:59as a way of thing this is what I believe
09:00this is what I stand for it's very very
09:03similar now but perfectly Polished
09:06quotes really crushed it I mean they
09:08still do now but back then you know you
09:10could design them really perfectly it
09:12wasn't like a tweet style that went
09:13viral and over the years I think we've
09:16gone from being perfect and poised to
09:19being more raw and unfiltered now you
09:22find that the content that goes viral or
09:24gets picked up the most is actually the
09:26least edited so it's been a very very
09:29interesting thing to watch and be part
09:31of I want to talk about this inside a
09:32little bit of people engaged with the
09:35thing that feels like oh I've been
09:36feeling this or I've been wanting this
09:38to be expressed and now someone else is
09:39saying it I've heard that Insight before
09:41and I've wanted to take action on it but
09:43what I find for me is it often brings
09:45out like a cynical part of me that even
09:48if I share that some people will be
09:50brought to it but it's like a cynical
09:52person then so is have you experienced
09:55this and is there a line where you can
09:57have this expression that isn't negative
10:00I guess is what I'm asking because it's
10:02it's easy to lean into the negative side
10:03of things but that doesn't seem like the
10:05healthiest attention to be bringing to
10:09totally and that was actually something
10:11that we had to think about with operon
10:13values what is it that we want to be
10:14known for and we realized that it was
10:17often the kind of sasia quote it's a
10:19really empowering quotes that you would
10:22kind of feel nervous saying about
10:23yourself like I remember one of us back
10:26in the day that went viral was I'm not
10:29questioning what I bring to the table I
10:30am the table and it was very much that
10:34high degree of confidence I know what
10:36I'm bringing to the table kind of energy
10:38and we had to have that discussion of
10:40like what's the fine line between being
10:42empowering and confident versus being a
10:44bit cocky and we had that conversation
10:46and we had we've tweaked accordingly as
10:48things have moved on so I think you can
10:51totally do it and it doesn't necessarily
10:53need to be negative or cynical you know
10:55sometimes things that people are feeling
10:57might be they might be feeling really
10:59tender and sensitive and a video that
11:01brings that out or calls it forward or
11:04they might be going through a time where
11:05they're feeling a lot of change and a
11:07quote sums up what they weren't able to
11:11is really powerful I think Naval is
11:13really good at doing that his his quotes
11:15aren't necessarily negative or cynical
11:17but in just a few words he sums up what
11:21you've been trying to journal on for
11:22days and I think there's a lot of power
11:24in that I think great writers online
11:26especially are the ones that can sum up
11:29how you're feeling in a way that you
11:30could never do it and you don't have to
11:33be negative to do that that's true I
11:36think I think all the way back like
11:38Episode 22 of the show I talked to Matt
11:39diabella and it's when I articulated or
11:41understood that even if you're in a very
11:44visual medium writing is so core to like
11:47all aspects of creativity do you
11:49identify as a writer 100 yeah I got
11:53started in business in copywriting I
11:57love to write and even now you know we
11:59are in a place where videos performing
12:01really well but the scripts behind those
12:03videos there's Ops behind those videos
12:05and that all starts with writing in my
12:07opinion whether it's writing a really
12:09good hook whether it's being able to
12:11take this really long story and condense
12:13it in a way that's going to grab
12:15people's attention and keep them engaged
12:16I think all of that comes down to
12:18writing and I don't think it's this kind
12:20of skill that has gone away I think as
12:22we're moving into this new visual era
12:25it's still just as if not more important
12:28because you don't want to watch a video
12:30without the first five minutes is
12:31absolute waffle you want something that
12:33hooks you in that sums up how you're
12:35feeling right away or what you're
12:37looking for right away and then delivers
12:39on that and then perhaps ends with a
12:41specific action I think it's really
12:43really powerful so if you identify as a
12:46writer and you're finding the success on
12:47Instagram what prevented you from going
12:51all in on another platform that might
12:53have been like more writing heavy
12:55because the perception I have is you
12:57guys really focused on Instagram and
13:00still this day like really focus on
13:02Instagram and a lot of people in your
13:03position might be drawn towards well let
13:06me go ahead and give Twitter a try and
13:07it seems like LinkedIn is starting to do
13:09well right now so how about I do that
13:10too how did you guys fight off that
13:13Temptation if you even felt it email was
13:16always my number one that's the thing
13:18that I really love doing and really
13:19cared about and I've always done email
13:21marketing from you know the same time
13:23that I set up an Instagram account I was
13:25setting up a newsletter and so that's
13:27always been I would say the engine of
13:29the business it's kind of hidden because
13:31you don't really see it social media is
13:33the front and it sends leads and
13:35subscribers to your email list but I
13:37think the real community building and
13:40the know like and Trust factor is built
13:42on email there were many other platforms
13:44social kind of front rented platforms I
13:47call them I say emails and owned
13:49platform because you do own that and
13:50you're not at the mercy of certain
13:52algorithms rented platforms there's
13:54Instagram Facebook you know that was
13:56twit like Twitter popping up Pinterest
13:59is still really relevant that was
14:00Periscope Tech talk now there's there
14:03was always beam distractions this entire
14:05time I just know for me I don't have the
14:08bandwidth to do all of those things
14:10really well and so I thought okay well
14:12if I do social really well if I do
14:14Instagram really well as my number one
14:16social platform and push people to email
14:18those two things feel pretty solid to me
14:21is it a risk that Instagram might go
14:23away yes but is that risk worth taking
14:26based on the growth I think I can get on
14:28Instagram this as being having my
14:30attention fragmented across multiple
14:33platforms and I still feel that way way
14:35now I'm really interested in YouTube and
14:37I do want to lean heavily into YouTube
14:39because I feel like that content just
14:42has a way longer shelf life and
14:43Instagram is very very short but again
14:46email will still be at the core of that
14:48so I'll start email first and then I'll
14:49think about how I could repurpose that
14:51email into a YouTube video so it's not
14:53more work we didn't start podcast till
14:55we were three years into business and
14:56only had millions of followers and again
14:58it was for the same reason of unless I
15:01can put someone in charge of Instagram
15:02and keep it running the way it was does
15:04it make sense to pull our attention off
15:06elsewhere I just think when you say yes
15:08to one thing you're saying no to another
15:10and I've always been very conscious of
15:12what I'm saying yes and no to when it
15:14comes to Instagram and moving people to
15:17email what have you found to be the
15:19effective strategies of getting people
15:21who are sometimes a little less engaged
15:22with kind of passing by watching stories
15:24how do you get them to actually come
15:26into an email ecosystem from Instagram
15:28right now the best way is if you can get
15:31a reel that pops off it goes viral but
15:34it's speaking to a very specific kind of
15:37person so I've had multiple examples of
15:39one wheel generating 10 000 plus email
15:42subscribers but it's been for a very
15:44very specific lead magnet opt-in so
15:47that's for anyone that's not sure what
15:49that is that is a free guide a free
15:51challenge a free video a free pdf
15:54something that delivers a lot of value
15:55that lives behind your email wall so
15:59they have to enter their email in order
16:00to get it we've created reels that are
16:03very very specific so we have a freebie
16:06called 30 days of content and it's a PDF
16:08where we've created content for people
16:10for 30 days and it's very copy and paste
16:13and we created a reel that was calling
16:15people out who are really struggling on
16:18procrastinating on social content and at
16:21the very end of the real we directed
16:23them to read the caption the caption
16:24sent them straight to the Lincoln bio
16:26that was so powerful for us because it
16:28spoke to a very specific kind of person
16:30and it really called them forward the
16:32kind of person scrolling that was
16:34impacted by this was the person that
16:37really needed the guide and it just
16:39racked up so many views so many likes so
16:42many people tagging their friends saying
16:44I feel seen and the downloads for that
16:47from that were phenomenal and we've had
16:48that on multiple occasions so the recipe
16:51really is gets super specific on who
16:53you're going after what is one piece of
16:55content that's going to hook them in
16:56right away and make them want to take
16:58action make them want to take the next
17:00step and then make that next step very
17:02clear and easy for them for people who
17:05are just listening to the audio version
17:06of this what does the what are the
17:08content of that reel look like it was
17:10like a director camera uh you speaking
17:13to it was it b-roll with text what did
17:15that look like it was direct to camera
17:18and it was a lip sync video with text
17:21written on I've had so many of these I
17:23actually can't remember the exact audio
17:25and text if the if people go on my
17:27Instagram I mean the best way let's say
17:30you want to know how to grow your email
17:32list and you're in the YouTube growth
17:34space go and look at people that are in
17:37that space go to their reels like swipe
17:40to the reels part of their profile and
17:42scroll down all of their reels and look
17:43at which ones went viral so you can do
17:45this on my profile scroll down and see
17:47which ones went viral see exactly what I
17:50did and just don't copy the content but
17:51copy what like the way in which I format
17:54this video because none of this is
17:55original we're all creating hooks we're
17:58delivering quick bite size value and
18:00then there's a call to action study how
18:02long the video was study what the call
18:04to action looked like study all of the
18:07little details of it so for me I create
18:09a lot of face to camera with lip sync
18:11audio because it's easiest for me
18:13honestly I'm busy creating content is
18:16like the smallest part of my job now so
18:18I'll set aside 15 minutes I'll grab my
18:21phone I'll watch a reel this is my App
18:23Store hack I watch one wheel and I start
18:26scrolling because I'm served a bunch of
18:27reels that are in the same niche as that
18:30and I take the audio and I just lip sync
18:32to a bunch of them I save them in my
18:34draft and then I go back later and start
18:36adding text call to actions I make it
18:39relevant and they're just sitting there
18:41I don't necessarily go into it with okay
18:43I'm going to create a reel that has this
18:45hook this body this outro because I get
18:49really led by what's trending at the
18:51time and that seems to really work for
18:53me in terms of virality so on those
18:55reels where you have a call to action to
18:57read the bio to or read the caption to
19:00send you to the link in the bio is that
19:03another caption on screen it says like
19:05read the caption or is it like an end
19:07card normally it's just text that pops
19:10up right on the end of the real thing
19:11read caption or Link in BIO and it's
19:14just very quick I normally time it for
19:16the last 60 to 90 Seconds Of The Reel uh
19:19no sorry last one second to 1.5 seconds
19:23I'm just thinking about it so the one
19:25that I just posted today I put the read
19:27caption at there was 1.5 seconds left of
19:30the Reel generally my reels are about
19:32six seconds because I want people
19:34watching it from start to finish ideally
19:36I want them to watch it more than once
19:38call to action in the last second that
19:41will get people watching but not turn
19:43off right away because they're not
19:44thinking oh she's just trying to direct
19:46me somewhere else and then they'll
19:47either read the caption or they'll go
19:49and jump to the Lincoln bio because they
19:50stayed for the content
19:52after quick break Natalie and I talk
19:54about how to take advantage of Instagram
19:55reels and later we talk about her
19:57product and hiring strategies so stick
20:00around we'll be right back
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20:34welcome back to my conversation with
20:35Natalie Ellis as a consumer on Instagram
20:37it really feels like they're pushing
20:39reels hard so I asked Natalie as a
20:42Creator do we have to embrace reels in
20:44order to be successful on Instagram
20:48there are some people that are doing
20:49well without it it's very few and far
20:52between this it's the same when
20:54Instagram's released any new feature
20:56they really prioritize it if we think
20:59about it in just a business sense you
21:01know when they launch a feature they put
21:03a really small product team on it so
21:05when they launch Stories the team that
21:07launched stories to millions of users
21:09was Tiny and that team really wants
21:12budget to go and expand the team so they
21:13really want their feature to work and so
21:16they'll generally get a bit more
21:18algorithmic favor for using those
21:21features they use as and that will then
21:23show people at Instagram whether it's
21:25sticky or whether it's not and they can
21:26make that decision to then expand the
21:28team with reels you know they saw Tick
21:31Tock take off and so they realized they
21:33needed to be able to compete in that
21:35kind of attention consuming way and so
21:37you get a lot of algorithmic favorites
21:39for doing it doesn't mean that you
21:41necessarily have to do that to go viral
21:43I've still gone viral on static posts
21:45but it's harder you have to really get
21:47something that's going to hit and it
21:50doesn't necessarily mean that Instagram
21:51is going to support you in going viral
21:52with it with a reel they're going to
21:54support you in it and so there's new
21:57features now I think you two have had
21:58this for a really long time but you can
22:00now select what kind of topics your reel
22:02is and so there's actual metadata on
22:06this reel that tells Instagram this
22:08piece of content is for mums of newborn
22:10babies great that Mum with a newborn
22:12baby is going to see it on her explore
22:14page now so that doing lots of things
22:16that is just basically making it so easy
22:19to go viral so that if I was starting
22:21out I would just go with that I would
22:23not make it harder for myself I would
22:25just go with it what's the status of
22:28hashtags and their importance on
22:30Instagram right now they're not very
22:31important right now they haven't been
22:33for quite a while I personally don't use
22:35them I think if you're starting an
22:37account from zero and you want to throw
22:38everything at it should I use a couple
22:41and kind of tell Instagram what your
22:42account's about but don't expect it to
22:44be a growth engine for you captions how
22:47much do we care about captions and does
22:49it depend on who your audience is
22:51captions again are less important than
22:53they used to be but they are still
22:55important you really want to think about
22:57the way in which you're writing them I
23:00talk about a headline to deadline
23:01technique so your headline really has to
23:04be a hook it has to pull people in and
23:06then you know the body it should be
23:08succinct it should be very clear you're
23:10not wasting words and at the end you
23:12know what there's a deadline to it
23:14whether that's you know though you want
23:16them to take call to action some things
23:17disappearing what's the thing that you
23:20want them to do make it super super
23:21clear that's really powerful if you've
23:24not got something like that if you've
23:25not got something worth saying keep it
23:26short people won't read it if it's not
23:28worth reading this is so good okay last
23:31one now that you have you know three and
23:34a half million followers on this this
23:36account not to mention your personal
23:38account how do you prioritize reels or
23:42infeed content versus stories with boss
23:45babe I prioritize feed content because
23:48it's not about me it's not about
23:50Danielle it's about our community and so
23:53by prioritizing and feed content that
23:56means we're serving content that really
23:57resonates with our community with my
23:59personal account I prioritize stories
24:01because it's more about me and I love
24:04stories because it gives me a chance to
24:06bring people just behind the scenes of
24:07my life it's really easy content to
24:09create and it starts conversations I
24:12have such deep conversations with my
24:15audience on Instagram because they see a
24:18story they reply they give me advice
24:20they ask questions I spend a lot of time
24:22in my DMs and so for me it just seems
24:24more worth it on my personal brand do it
24:27that way so we kind of started this
24:29conversation with at the time when you
24:31started uh contributing to the boss babe
24:33account before it was your account
24:38Queen I was gonna say King but I'm like
24:39let's say queen this time yes
24:41and now we're talking about reels was
24:45there an era or multiple eras in between
24:47where the game was different yeah
24:53moving into that role unedited more
24:56unfiltered phase so putting pictures up
24:58that went perfect and what I mean by
25:01that is an example of you go traveling
25:03and you're posting a picture of your
25:05breakfast and it's like seven plates of
25:07perfect pancakes and everything's so
25:09perfect the way that it's put together
25:11those kinds of things stopped getting
25:13engagement so it went from Instagram
25:15being kind of like Pinterest to being a
25:18bit more real and so that would be
25:19selfies posted that were more unedited
25:22unfiltered those kinds of things did
25:24really well there was transformation
25:27pictures so people showing the realness
25:30the comparison that worked really well
25:33and then with quotes and things we saw a
25:35move from things being so heavily
25:37designed to it being a bit more raw and
25:40real so that's when we saw the move from
25:42a well-designed quote to maybe a
25:45screenshot from a tweet uh a carousel
25:47from a tweet those kind of things worked
25:49really well people were also providing
25:51value in a more long-form way they can
25:54do that in video now but at the time
25:55carousels they were performing really
25:57well with a hook and then some body
25:59content kind of like an email and then
26:01an end card and I think we're still
26:03moving in that direction of more raw
26:06more real I think every year kind of
26:08when people are demanding more and more
26:10of that that's what I've seen anyway I
26:13can't see us going back to the perfect
26:14Pinterest polished vibe
26:16the easier to grow now on Instagram than
26:19it was in those two times or was it
26:21easier you know six years ago and we're
26:24kind of just out of luck
26:27I don't think we're out of luck but it's
26:29nowhere near as easy I'm not I'm not
26:31gonna lie about that back in the day you
26:33know it was less saturated it was a lot
26:35easier to grow you didn't have to have a
26:37specific Niche you didn't have to be an
26:39absolute content machine you'd have to
26:40be hooking people's attention and
26:42milliseconds now you do because there is
26:46a lot more content saturation out there
26:48we are competing for attention in a way
26:50that we never had to before and so you
26:53can grow absolutely but you're gonna
26:54have to work a lot harder for it would I
26:57pick Instagram as my platform of choice
26:59if I was starting from scratch now I
27:02don't know that I would and I'm being
27:03totally honest about that I don't know
27:05that I'd choose Tick Tock either because
27:07from what I'm seeing from Tick Tock if
27:10you really hit it it can be amazing but
27:13it can also be quite up and down just
27:15because you have a following on there
27:16doesn't necessarily mean your content is
27:18going to be seen by all the people that
27:20following you every single time you post
27:22so I would definitely think about the
27:25platform that I was going gonna go on if
27:27I was starting from zero again and how
27:28would you think about that I would think
27:30about where my ideal clients are going
27:31to be first and foremost I think that
27:33makes the most sense and then secondly
27:35I'd think about how can I build no like
27:38and Trust Factor the quickest I'm
27:40wanting to start from zero I'm not
27:41wanting to put a decade of work into
27:43building my personal brand that's really
27:45important to me and then I would think
27:49put the least input to get the most
27:51output because we're all busy and so I
27:54would probably go YouTube personally
27:55because I could spend time creating one
27:59video that's actually going to have a
28:00really long shelf life it's going to
28:02bring in an audience for me if I do it
28:04well it's gonna allow me to spend a good
28:06chunk of time with my audience or I
28:09would do something like a podcast same
28:11thing you know if it's done well you're
28:13building that know like and Trust Factor
28:15really well with your audience and it's
28:18just to show a loop of building how do
28:21think about the time you're spending on
28:23the Natalie Universe versus boss babe
28:27and it doesn't have to be specific to
28:29Instagram because I know you're on
28:30YouTube and all these different
28:30platforms so how do you decide this is
28:33the time when I should make content for
28:35my personal pages and is that benefiting
28:37you or is it benefiting the company or
28:39both I know people wrestle with this uh
28:41and I'm curious to hear your take to be
28:43totally honest with you I neglected my
28:45personal brand almost the entire time
28:47I've been building boss babe it's always
28:49been a second thought because I was
28:51building a brand I was building boss
28:53babe and with that being said my
28:56personal brand has always been such a
28:58big support to the company if we're in a
29:01launch the way in which it drives leads
29:03or conversions is almost being
29:05comparable which is crazy given the size
29:09difference in followers but I think you
29:12know people buy from people right and
29:14they it's a lot easier to know like and
29:15trust people with Brands it's harder to
29:17build that up but then when you have it
29:19you really have it now I'm starting to
29:21think more about my personal brand just
29:23the phase in which I'm in I want to
29:26create content around that I want to
29:27bring people behind the scenes of my
29:29life right now and I'm lucky in that I
29:32have a team to support me with boss babe
29:34so it's not like I have to neglect that
29:35account I have a team that can keep
29:37things going while I also maybe turn my
29:40attention to creating content with my
29:42face on it so you said like sometimes
29:44the personal brand supports the the
29:46company so well if you had some new
29:49interest that you got into maybe you
29:51wanted to talk about just like being a
29:52new mom and that was where you want to
29:54go with your personal brand
29:55does that have a risk of detracting from
29:59the company or making people think oh I
30:01guess Natalie's not taking this other
30:03thing as seriously as she used to so I'm
30:05going to divert my attention now to what
30:06she's doing now have you thought about
30:08that because I could see myself
30:09struggling with that if I'd done it a
30:11couple of years ago it absolutely would
30:12have it would have I think distracted
30:15from boss babe now boss babe is a brand
30:17in itself and I don't think people think
30:20about boss papers being Natalie and
30:22Danielle I think they think about it as
30:23being boss babe and me and Danielle are
30:26separate in that we have our own
30:27accounts and we have our own things that
30:29we talk about and we're very different
30:30and so now I think it's more an
30:32expectation from our audience that we
30:34are different and we bring different
30:36things so boss babe is this brand that
30:38stands alone and then our personal
30:40Brands they're kind of like an edge they
30:43bring a uniqueness to what we're doing
30:45so I don't feel like it would change
30:49um again my face isn't on the Bossip
30:50account so much a couple of years ago my
30:53face was still on stories almost every
30:55single day it hasn't been for a really
30:57long time so people are coming to Boston
30:59for the boss babe content so making that
31:02transition was really important before
31:03even thinking about spending any time on
31:05my personal brand I want to talk a
31:07little bit about your your partnership
31:09with Danielle because most of the folks
31:11that I have on the show are Solo
31:12creators they they get to have like full
31:14decision making Authority and anything
31:17goes well it's on them everything that's
31:18poorly is on them people listening to
31:20this who feel like you know I might be
31:22someone that would like to work with
31:23somebody and partner with somebody can
31:25you help talk through how they should
31:27approach that to set themselves up from
31:29six for Success from the beginning yeah
31:31you really want to think about what
31:32you're each bringing to the table and so
31:35do you have skills that really
31:36complement each other and together can
31:39you build something better than you
31:41would be building on your own I think
31:43that's basically really really important
31:45secondly is this someone you want to be
31:47in a legal partnership with I think
31:50business Partnerships kind of like a
31:52marriage honestly because you together
31:54are creating and building assets and
31:58that's not something that you want to
31:59take lightly and if your business
32:01partnership fails likely your business
32:03is going to fail too or it gets really
32:05really messy with me and Danielle we've
32:07always thought about and prioritized our
32:09relationship knowing that it's going to
32:11take work and then if we don't
32:13prioritize that the business can't drive
32:16it's like having kids with someone right
32:17if you think about the business as a
32:19baby your baby is really only going to
32:21be doing as well as the the health of
32:23the overall relationship so that part's
32:26really really important and so having
32:28those upfront discussions with a
32:30potential Partners very important what
32:32is your rule going to be what are you
32:34going to contribute what can I expect
32:35from you and okay if we come into
32:38disagreements how do you generally
32:39handle them how can we agree on being
32:42able to come to decisions what do you
32:44have say on that you can kind of make
32:46Final Call on and what do I have say on
32:48that I can make Final Call on how can we
32:51avoid ever being in a tiebreak situation
32:53all of this might be uncomfortable to
32:55talk about up front it's so incredibly
32:59beyond that Beyond those tactical things
33:02I think you have to have a conversation
33:03about what you want the vision of your
33:06life to look like beyond the business
33:07think about the business as just a
33:09vehicle that's going to help you get
33:11there but if your life vision is
33:13completely misaligned from that of your
33:16you're probably not going to be rowing
33:17in the direction in the same direction
33:18if your business partner wants to build
33:21this big business where they get paid
33:24out through an exit and they don't
33:26necessarily care about taking cash out
33:27in the interim and they don't really
33:28care about having freedom in the interim
33:30because they see this North Star and
33:31that's where it's going to come from
33:33great are you aligned with that because
33:35if you want a cash flow for one business
33:37where you're actually going to have a
33:38lot of Lifestyle Freedom you don't want
33:40to sell it you want it to just be this
33:42engine that generates revenue for you
33:44and and you're doing something you enjoy
33:46then you need to find a partner that has
33:48those same values and you have to be
33:50really honest about that up front don't
33:52just say what you think the other person
33:53wants to hear so you can get into
33:55partnership with them it's like you're
33:57going from dating to getting married
33:59real quick so you better have those
34:01uncomfortable conversations this is one
34:04of the most important questions I feel
34:05when you're going into the partnership
34:06because the struggle I see a lot of
34:07people have they they like the idea of
34:09partnership and they like the idea both
34:11of being able to work with somebody so
34:13it's not as lonely and theoretically
34:14like you can do things twice as quickly
34:16because you have twice as much power
34:17going into it but everything starts at
34:20zero and the struggle I see with a lot
34:22of potential Partners is they can't
34:24figure out the initial money part of
34:26this because it's hard to build a
34:28business that supports one person let
34:30alone two people so how should people
34:32approach that if they're starting from
34:34zero with a partner to think how do we
34:36make this reward both of us when it
34:38starts with so little in the beginning
34:41that's a really really important
34:42conversation and just like in romantic
34:44relationships money is often a really
34:46big sticking point with co-founders
34:48again those honest conversations what
34:50are you bringing to the table in terms
34:52of Revenue and growth how are you able
34:55to support the growth of this business
34:56because if it's just me am I going to be
34:58compensated differently for what I'm
35:00bringing or if you're not driving
35:02Revenue but you're doing something in
35:04the back end and that's actually really
35:06really supportive to be able to bring in
35:08revenue and stabilize the company so we
35:10can hold more customers how do we
35:12compensate you for that and coming up
35:14with a bit of a framework that you agree
35:16on in the beginning so that as you get
35:19into this partnership and you get a
35:20couple years down the line and you're
35:21not talking about some arbitrary number
35:23but you're actually talking about money
35:25in the bank you have the same kind of
35:27framework framework that you both agreed
35:29on back then that you can use then I
35:31think that's really really important
35:33money is always going to be something
35:35that you have to be talking about
35:37whatever kind of partnership you're in
35:39it has to be something you talk about if
35:41you avoid it I think that's where a lot
35:43of problems all come from yeah it almost
35:45sounds like you're talking about
35:47kind of performance milestones and
35:49metrics in a way because I think a lot
35:51of people just assume that okay if we're
35:54both starting this and it didn't exist
35:55yesterday this must be a 50 50
35:57partnership and whatever money comes in
35:58we just split it in half but it sounds
36:00like you're advocating for putting some
36:02more deeper thought into it and and
36:05making it more match up with what you're
36:07coming in with as opposed to saying well
36:09it's starting from zero so 50 50
36:11everything down the middle yeah well I
36:13think it warrants conversation I don't
36:14think it should just be okay because
36:16we're both starting this from zero we
36:18both get 50 what if one person has a job
36:20and that they're working full-time in
36:22and you're full-time in the business how
36:24do you work that out because that person
36:26might say you know what I'm going to
36:27stay in my my job so that I have that
36:30security so you're going to be the one
36:31that gets paid and when it makes sense
36:33I'll transition into the business it
36:35wouldn't then be fair if the person
36:36working full-time got paid the exact
36:38same amount as someone who's only
36:39putting in a couple hours and so you
36:42have to have these conversations and
36:43even if you end up at 50 50 and
36:46everything split down the middle well at
36:48least you're comfortable with that
36:49decision and you didn't go into it as a
36:53when we come back Natalie and I dig into
36:55our product strategy and how she thinks
36:56about selling to an audience of 3.5
36:58million people right after this
37:01hey thanks for watching creative
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37:52to just look at episodes with YouTubers
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37:57can do that with those starter playlists
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38:01again the link is down below in the
38:04hey welcome back over the years boss
38:06babe has experimented a lot with their
38:08product strategy at times they've sold
38:10no products at times they've sold just
38:11one product so I asked Natalie after
38:14years of experimentation how should new
38:16creators think about their product
38:17strategy so I think the first thing that
38:20they should do is get really clear on an
38:22Ideal Ascension model so not saying
38:25you're going to build
38:27they are on an Ideal Ascension model
38:29someone that's starting from the
38:31absolute beginning the first thing they
38:32buy from you what would an ideal
38:34Ascension look like because businesses
38:36that are able to resell people over and
38:39over and over again are businesses that
38:40do really really well and so think about
38:42that think about that model and then
38:44looking at it decide where you want to
38:46start do you want to start at the most
38:48expensive product that's going to be you
38:51know for fewer people but it's going to
38:52help you build curriculum or it's going
38:55to help you gather data that's going to
38:56support your other products or do you
38:59want to start right at the beginning and
39:01build things out slowly as that becomes
39:03more demand for it I think that part's
39:05really important second to that think
39:08about distribution so it's all well and
39:10good having a great product idea but how
39:12are you going to sell this thing if you
39:14come up with an idea for like let's say
39:16a low ticket membership let's say
39:17something under 50 a month great you're
39:20gonna need a lot of people in order to
39:22sustain that and make it worth your
39:23while so how are you going to sell it do
39:25you have enough people that you can sell
39:27to or do you have a great sales strategy
39:29if not maybe it's you know the time that
39:32you're going to think about building
39:33that figuring out a way to make that
39:35happen or build something different
39:36those things I think are really really
39:39important the actual product you can get
39:41really nitty-gritty and that what is it
39:43what is it delivering what is the price
39:44point all those things but if you don't
39:46know what the overall journey is and how
39:48you're going to reach those people
39:49initially I think you can end up
39:51spinning your wheels and maybe creating
39:52something that didn't doesn't take off
39:55and for people who are listening that
39:57are saying what is Ascension you're
39:58saying basically product to product
40:00there's a whole pipeline of steps people
40:02will take in working with you they're
40:04trying to get to some outcome and you
40:06can build products all along the way
40:07that go step by step to that outcome and
40:09you're saying Ascension meaning what
40:11points the journey do you want to serve
40:13right exactly let's say you start
40:15working with a functional medicine
40:16doctor and you go in and you're like you
40:18know what my I keep getting a bad
40:20stomach my gut feels really iffy and
40:22they're like okay we're gonna run a few
40:24tests and I'll I'll help you
40:25troubleshoot that that's the first way
40:27in which you work with them and then
40:29they come back and say you know what why
40:30don't we look at your body as a whole
40:32should we run a few more tests and just
40:35do a workup of where you're at right now
40:37and so you then do that maybe they then
40:40come to you and say okay we see your
40:42results why don't I create you a 90-day
40:44protocol and I just give it to you and
40:46you're gonna go follow it on your own
40:47and you go do that and then you go back
40:49to them and then they might say okay
40:51we're in a really good place now why
40:52don't I coach you weekly on being able
40:55to opt nice where you're at so at each
40:57step they've been adding things on just
41:00like going to the dentist at each step
41:02they're adding things on and at that
41:04point you can decide do I want more of
41:06what I'm getting or do I want to stick
41:10yeah that's the next point I wanted to
41:11drill into because this is a challenge I
41:12see with a lot of people is they will
41:14paint this big Vision in their mind of
41:17their full Ascension model they know
41:18okay in a fully realized version of this
41:21business this is what I can do for this
41:23type of person and it's actually you
41:24know 10 different things and they get to
41:26work building like an MVP of every step
41:29of that as opposed to maybe building the
41:33first step doing it really well and
41:34doing that for a couple of years and
41:36then adding on so how would you advise
41:38someone approach that when should they
41:40build the next steps in this Ascension
41:43model versus say actually I'm going to
41:44audience build to further pull people
41:47into this one product experience I've
41:49done well yeah I really don't think they
41:51should build multiple products until
41:53that one product is sustaining itself
41:55and what I mean by that is let's say you
41:58have been attracting that's just called
42:00100 customers every month for six months
42:02you're like okay this is really steady
42:04could I put someone else in charge of
42:06this and it's going to come like
42:08continue growing at 100 customers per
42:10month can I do that can I step away to
42:13then put my attention somewhere else and
42:15this is going to keep going I think that
42:17is the point in which you can focus on
42:19something else and you can build
42:20something that maybe you know if you're
42:22getting 100 people into this product
42:24every month there's going to be five
42:26interested in the next step you're
42:27building the next step your distribution
42:29is already taken care of because there's
42:31one product is doing really well I think
42:33you have to have that dialed in because
42:35what I see a lot of time is people jump
42:37to the next product they get shiny
42:39object syndrome a little too early and
42:41this one product that was the focal
42:43point of their business and was doing
42:44really really well starts to decline
42:47they're either not bringing in clients
42:49consistently anymore they're not
42:50delivering the results that they're used
42:52to you know they're not building the
42:55same relationships and happiness that
42:56they were before then you're kind of
42:58starting from zero again and you're back
43:00on this hamster wheel and all of a
43:01sudden you've got all these products and
43:03no one to sell them to something
43:04interesting that you just said was
43:06sustaining itself and putting someone
43:09else in charge of that product that's
43:12something I don't I don't find a lot of
43:13creators thinking about is hiring to
43:17lead a product within your company they
43:20think that they have to run and support
43:22every product all along the way so I'd
43:25love to hear a little bit about how you
43:26think about hiring and expanding the
43:28team to support these products because
43:29that's a perspective we haven't heard a
43:31lot here well let's say you have a baby
43:33right and you also want to be working on
43:35your business doing both with the baby
43:37holding the baby at the same time is
43:38difficult you're then going to get a
43:40nanny are you going to put your baby in
43:41daycast you have a bit extra time to
43:43work on the the other thing it's exactly
43:45the same with business and products and
43:46I think building teams are really really
43:48important I would say I'm an
43:50entrepreneur before I'm a Creator and
43:53the way I think about that or the way I
43:56think about my business is more
43:58entrepreneurial than from kind of a
44:00creative perspective I don't think about
44:01building a really lean team where I'm
44:04running everything I think about
44:05building a real business that can run
44:08with or without me and and putting
44:11people in place so when I think about
44:13hiring let's say You're Gonna hire your
44:16first person I would be thinking about
44:18what are all the things you're spending
44:19your time on that aren't moving the
44:21needle in your business what could they
44:22be outsourced to let's say you know
44:24you're making 50 an hour in your
44:26business but you can Outsource fifty
44:28percent of what you're doing for 25 an
44:30hour so you can be doing more fifty
44:32dollars an hour things I think that
44:33makes sense and for me the way I've
44:36thought about my business is there has
44:38to be an owner of each Channel and each
44:40product within the business and that's
44:42not going to be me unless it's a brand
44:43new thing I think as an entrepreneur my
44:47skills like in getting brand new things
44:49off the ground and making them work and
44:51then handing them off to someone that
44:52can keep things going that's worked
44:55really really well for me and you can
44:56find great people that can do that for
44:58you in your business I want to take the
44:59last bit of time we have here to talk a
45:01little bit about collaboration because I
45:02know that's a huge value that you've
45:04always had in the company and if I'm
45:07listening to this and I'm already kind
45:08of overwhelmed with all the things they
45:10could be doing with my time right I
45:11could be building this product I mean
45:13this experience really good I could be
45:14creating content how would you weigh or
45:17prioritize the time to form
45:20collaborations with other people amongst
45:22all the other things I could be doing as
45:24a Creator the way I think about anything
45:26like this is I think about my null star
45:28what's the thing that I'm driving
45:30towards and I run every decision through
45:33that North Star if your North Star is to
45:36have a hundred members in your
45:37membership that's the thing you're
45:38really driving towards if a
45:40collaboration is going to help you hit
45:42that goal great maybe think about doing
45:44that if it's going to distract and it's
45:46actually not going to help you hit that
45:48goal maybe it's gonna open you up to
45:50something else you're not 100 sure what
45:52it is consider do you want to be opened
45:54up to something else or do you want to
45:56keep moving towards this North Star and
45:58I think you have to be willing to turn
45:59opportunities down you have to be
46:00willing to quote unquote leave money on
46:02the table in order to get where you're
46:04going I can't tell you over the years
46:06how many times people have said you're
46:07leaving money on the table by doing that
46:09but actually am I or am I putting more
46:12money on the table because I'm focused I
46:14say no to more things than I say yes to
46:17you know I don't just hop on everybody's
46:19podcast I don't just become an affiliate
46:21for everyone or let people affiliate for
46:23me I don't just collaborate on content
46:25on social with anyone it's very very
46:28unintentional and it's based on what are
46:30what what's this season I'm in with my
46:32business what are the goals I'm working
46:33towards this quarter this year this
46:34decade does it align okay I'll do it if
46:37it doesn't then I'm gonna say no and my
46:39boundaries are gonna be really clear
46:40around that how has being a new mother
46:43changed the way that you approach
46:45business or think about your business I
46:47have a lot less time these days and so I
46:49my boundaries have had to get really
46:51really strong and you know I think about
46:54yikes before I became a mum I wasted a
46:56lot of time on certain things in meeting
46:58that I really didn't need to be in or
47:01you know reading slack or scrolling on
47:03social when it really wasn't moving the
47:05needle so for me the way I think about
47:07my work now is when I'm at my laptop and
47:09I'm working I am working there is no
47:11distraction I'm not taking a meeting
47:13that does not absolutely need to be
47:15taken and I've created a lot of
47:16boundaries around that and the other way
47:18that I think about work now is
47:21I find being a mum really fulfilling and
47:23I absolutely love it I love spending
47:25time with my daughter and if I'm at work
47:28doing something that feels really
47:30draining and it's really not enjoyable I
47:33kind of weigh it up of do I really want
47:36to be doing something that feels this
47:38kind of unfulfilling when I could be
47:40going and spending time with my daughter
47:41that would feel great and so the work
47:43that I do now it has to light me up and
47:45it has to feel fulfilling and I also
47:47understand that I'm in a privileged
47:48position being able to say that because
47:50I've spent a decade building my
47:52businesses building my wealth that I I
47:54do have a level of Freedom that not
47:56everyone has at this point and that has
47:58really worked in my favor now because I
48:00get to pick and choose what I spent my
48:02time on I thought this conversation was
48:04refreshingly honest about how difficult
48:06it can be to start and find traction on
48:08Instagram today it's not impossible but
48:10I want you to go into both eyes wide
48:12open I think that applies to all
48:14platforms if you want to learn more
48:15about boss babe you can visit their
48:17website bossbabe.com or boss babe.ink on
48:21Instagram links to that as well as
48:23Natalie's personal accounts are in the
48:25show notes thanks to Natalie for being
48:26on the show thank you to Connor
48:27connemboy for editing this episode and
48:29Nathan townhunter for mixing our audio
48:30thank you to Emily Klaus for making our
48:32artwork and Brian scale for making our
48:34music if you enjoyed this episode tweet
48:36at me or find me on Instagram at J Klaus
48:38let me know I love to hear it and if you
48:40really want to say thank you please
48:41leave a review on Apple podcasts thanks
48:44for listening and I'll talk to you next
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