00:00 what we're starting to see is that like
00:01 individuals are losing control of
00:03 themselves and they don't even realize
00:05 that it's happening all they really see
00:06 is that like this is not exactly what I
00:08 want to be doing on a day-to-day basis I
00:10 have goals I have aspirations I have
00:12 things that I should be doing but I
00:15 can't seem to get away from a screen
00:20 Dr K welcome to the show it's an honor
00:22 to be here Chris it's been very
00:24 requested you are one of the most
00:26 requested guests I've had on the show
00:27 really really looking forward to this
00:29 I'm looking forward to it too I love
00:30 your podcast love the you know blend of
00:33 Science and sort of like personal
00:35 experience that you really put forward
00:37 here so huge fan thank you
00:40 what do you say when you meet somebody
00:42 at a cocktail party and they say what do
00:45 uh so you know my stock answer is
00:48 actually like I'm a physician by
00:52 um or I say I work in digital Mental
00:56 so digital mental health I imagine I
00:58 imagine that everybody knows what that
00:59 is well so that's the thing right is
01:01 it's like enough buzzwords to where it
01:04 kind of like people don't usually ask
01:06 questions after that so I think it kind
01:09 of depends on okay what am I really
01:11 looking for like do I want to talk about
01:14 um sometimes I'll just say I'm a
01:19 but you've updated yourself you are a
01:21 clinically trained psychiatrist who has
01:24 brought himself into the 21st century
01:27 I guess you could say that I think maybe
01:30 the the 21st century has brought me into
01:32 it is maybe a better way to put it but
01:35 yeah I think we're both kind of evolving
01:38 together at the frontier yes so you
01:41 spend an awful lot of time working with
01:43 Gamers people that use screens a lot in
01:45 a variety of capacities getting them to
01:47 improve their mental health getting them
01:49 to better understand what it is that
01:51 their motivations are why their brain
01:53 works the way that it does challenges
01:55 they're facing uh explanations about
01:59 from an outsider's perspective what is
02:02 it that most people don't understand
02:04 about Gamers and screens and mental
02:08 health and the relationship of how that
02:10 yeah so I think let's start actually
02:12 with like screens and Technology
02:15 so if we look at technology technology
02:17 tries to engage us right but if we look
02:22 does technology interact with primarily
02:24 it interacts with the mind
02:26 and so what I think what a lot of people
02:28 don't understand is that our mind is
02:30 being accessed or activated or triggered
02:34 basically constantly all day every day
02:37 in a way that we just haven't evolved to
02:40 so if you sort of look at like the
02:42 natural environment in which the human
02:43 brain evolved it's like a low
02:45 stimulation environment like go for a
02:48 walk somewhere right and that's actually
02:49 the Baseline that we grew up in that we
02:52 evolved in and so all of this High
02:56 is working on us in some way and the
03:00 thing about our our minds is that if you
03:02 really think about this principle of
03:03 Engagement what does engagement mean
03:05 what are they engaging they're engaging
03:08 and as platforms get better and better
03:10 at this as video games get better and
03:12 better at this what we're starting to
03:13 see is that like individuals are losing
03:15 control of themselves and they don't
03:18 even realize that it's happening all
03:20 they really see is that like this is not
03:22 exactly what I want to be doing on a
03:23 day-to-day basis I have goals I have
03:26 aspirations I have things that I should
03:28 be doing but I can't seem to get away
03:35 does something very ruthless about the
03:39 fact that the more enjoyable and the
03:43 better that screens and Technology get
03:46 at satisfying our desires the more
03:50 addicting they become which means that
03:52 although the felt present sense of how
03:55 good it was may increase the after the
03:58 fact remembered sense of how much it's
04:00 starting to intrude on our lives and our
04:02 other goals outside of the screens the
04:04 worse it gets it's kind of this
04:05 double-edged sword yeah I mean I I think
04:08 that captures it really well Chris so
04:09 like that that too if you kind of want
04:11 to take a step back like most technology
04:14 and especially video games are designed
04:16 right but the human brain's capacity to
04:20 have fun like why do we have fun so if
04:22 you look at human beings and animals
04:25 we have fun we engage in play and we
04:30 practice the skills that are useful for
04:34 and so what happens with video games is
04:37 is developers sort of figured out okay
04:38 like here's a game like a role-playing
04:41 game like an RPG and you know what we
04:42 can do to make it more fun we can make a
04:45 persistent Universe with thousands of
04:48 and so what video games are what
04:50 developers actually stumbled upon is
04:52 like another sort of psychological need
04:54 this need for community and over time
04:57 exactly what you described as happening
04:59 is that as games become more and more
05:02 how do they become more fun it's because
05:04 developers figure out okay we can
05:06 scratch like another psychological need
05:08 and so if you think about games like now
05:10 there's like appearance and cosmetics
05:12 right so we all want to look good
05:14 and since it triggers that sense of fun
05:16 what that sort of means is activating
05:19 that circuit the circuit that we have to
05:21 want to be respected to want to look
05:24 good except now we can sort of satisfy
05:26 it within a video game and what we're
05:28 starting to see is that like we can kind
05:30 of satisfy some of these psychological
05:32 needs in video games although they're
05:34 not like a complete satisfaction but
05:36 it's kind of enough and so what what's
05:39 sort of happening is people are like
05:40 starting to live their lives more and
05:42 more like in the virtual world and as
05:45 they do that they start to kind of get
05:47 disconnected or fall behind in the real
05:50 what are the mechanisms that screens are
05:54 working on and is there any difference
05:55 between the kind of triggers that video
05:58 games are having compared with the
06:00 triggers of other stuff like let's say
06:03 yeah so I I think they're very different
06:05 so I think if you look at why does
06:08 someone get addicted to a particular
06:10 thing as opposed to another thing and
06:13 there are even studies that sort of bear
06:14 this out like so for example people on
06:16 the autism spectrum are more likely to
06:19 get addicted to role-playing games and
06:22 there's even data that shows that the
06:24 more role-playing games you play if
06:26 you're on the autism spectrum the more
06:28 likely you are to have behavioral
06:29 meltdowns So within video games we know
06:32 that there's actually personality
06:33 analysis like University of Toronto has
06:36 done a lot of really good research here
06:37 where they've sort of figured out
06:38 depending on your personality style
06:40 you're more likely to gravitate towards
06:42 a particular game and then once you move
06:44 Beyond games if you start to think about
06:46 social media you know people who are
06:48 more sensitive to body image issues May
06:51 gravitate towards platforms like
06:52 Instagram and things like that
06:55 um and so what we're starting to see is
06:57 that you know everyone's brain is a
06:58 little bit different everyone's brain is
07:00 a little bit vulnerable
07:02 um we all crave to have certain
07:04 psychological needs fulfilled and there
07:06 are certain pieces of technology which
07:08 will sort of fulfill those in a very
07:10 shallow but kind of neuroscientifically
07:13 important way and those are the ones
07:15 that we get addicted to
07:16 can you remember any of the other
07:19 associations between the type of games
07:21 that you like to play and the kind of
07:23 personality that you have oh yeah I mean
07:25 so like there are some people who like
07:26 to explore things right so that there
07:30 if we kind of think about it this way
07:32 let's say you take four trips over four
07:34 years do you go back to the same place
07:36 over and over and over again or do you
07:37 like to check out new places
07:39 right and there are different kinds of
07:41 people some people were like hey I
07:42 really liked that you know I love
07:44 visiting the beach or like every time I
07:45 go I'm gonna go to the beach I'm gonna
07:47 go to the beach I'm gonna go to the
07:48 beach there's a new beach
07:50 some people are more exploratory and and
07:53 so there are certain kinds of adventure
07:55 games where you're kind of exploring
07:56 open World stuff they'll kind of get
07:58 more into that other people are like
08:00 optimizers so you have these games like
08:02 factorio and things like that where like
08:04 people are really they derive a lot of
08:06 pleasure out of taking something that's
08:08 at 70 and bumping it to 71 75 78 80 81
08:13 and these same people by the way like
08:15 you know companies like Google and
08:17 Netflix will pay hundreds of thousands
08:19 of dollars to do that thing for their
08:21 job how can we optimize this particular
08:24 widget on this particular app so that
08:27 depending on what your mind is
08:29 interested in or excited about some
08:30 people also seek adrenaline which is why
08:32 they'll play games like first person
08:33 shooters like fortnite
08:35 um so different brains want different
08:37 things and that'll absolutely determine
08:39 what kind of games you end up playing
08:41 what happens to your brain if you use
08:44 video games excessively
08:47 um so it in a nutshell not good things
08:50 but I think a lot of people will wonder
08:53 you know what is excessive
08:55 so this is where you have to understand
08:57 that the reason games are fun are
08:59 because they fulfill particular
09:01 psychological needs they like scratch
09:04 and what the biggest problem that tends
09:07 to happen I know everyone talks about
09:08 dopamine and we'll get to that in a
09:09 second but the biggest problem that we
09:11 see is that once you start fulfilling
09:16 then your brain sort of has this really
09:19 tricky kind of situation because if you
09:22 try to fulfill that need in the real
09:23 world it's going to be harder what's an
09:27 so let's say I want to be number one
09:30 the problem is like in school there's
09:32 only one number one but in a video game
09:35 and if you all have played video games
09:36 you'll you'll sort of realize this like
09:38 when you come back from let's say you're
09:40 down and you're losing in a particular
09:41 game and then you come back and you win
09:42 there's this adrenaline rush and you'll
09:45 love it it's like one of the most
09:46 exciting things in the world
09:48 and the problem is like the like getting
09:50 that feeling of being like on the verge
09:52 of losing and then coming back and
09:55 very hard to do in the real world
09:57 incredibly difficult to do and so these
10:00 are all these kinds of experiences that
10:02 We crave this sort of like you know
10:03 hero's journey of like the deck is
10:05 stacked against you but you're gonna
10:07 Triumph and this is what we love to see
10:09 in our media but like we can't
10:11 experience that in our everyday life
10:12 right because I've got to study for
10:14 calculus today and there's no like
10:17 Triumph like even if you sort of think
10:18 about reward circuitry and this is what
10:21 game game developers are really good at
10:22 so even if I get an A on the test
10:24 there's such a gap between taking the
10:27 test and getting the grade back that
10:29 that behavior doesn't get reinforced
10:31 whereas what we know from pavlovian
10:32 conditioning is that the faster you give
10:35 someone the reward the more likely you
10:38 reinforce behavior and people wonder
10:40 like why is it hard to study it's
10:42 because there's no reward that you
10:45 and and so I'm sort of I I even forget
10:48 what your original question was but I
10:50 think that Point's really smart that you
10:52 eat [ __ ] now with the presentation for
10:55 work with the studying for the exam
10:57 which is in a couple of weeks time and
10:59 then at some point down the line that
11:02 one module of that one particular course
11:04 will finally contribute to the degree
11:05 that you get in two and a half years or
11:07 it'll it'll get you the job raise that
11:10 you need or the promotion that you want
11:11 in a couple of years time and maybe a
11:13 different company so I think that's
11:14 something that's very important uh what
11:16 I asked was what happens to your brain
11:18 if you use video games excessively you
11:20 said what you're doing basically is
11:22 um you can create a feedback loop of
11:26 satisfaction in the virtual world which
11:28 is incredibly difficult to replicate in
11:30 the real world I think that's what yeah
11:32 and and that's kind of I think the core
11:34 point is once you start using it
11:38 it becomes harder and harder to engage
11:41 in the real world and that's what we see
11:43 when it rises to the level of true
11:44 addiction and then there are all kinds
11:46 of other like neuroscience-based effects
11:49 that we kind of see so we'll see for
11:50 example alterations of like dopamine
11:53 reinforcement so people who play a lot
11:56 of video games will start to become a
11:58 little bit more anhedonic which means
11:59 that their ability to experience
12:01 pleasure sort of goes down so if you
12:03 play a bunch of video games reading a
12:05 book just won't keep your attention it
12:08 becomes harder to like do sort of IRL
12:11 stuff is that the some kind of dopamine
12:14 set point or dopamine sensitivity that's
12:16 being tuned down yeah so that that's
12:18 probably what's happening we don't we
12:20 you know we have a lot of
12:22 inferential data on this but no one is
12:24 like doing brain brain biopsy brain
12:27 biopsies of video Gamers and seeing how
12:30 much dopamine is in the synaptic Cloud
12:31 modernize yourself guys come on this is
12:33 the science [ __ ] out but what we tend
12:35 to see is all the clinical features so
12:37 if you work with a gaming addict you'll
12:39 see like a lack of motivation and
12:41 motivation is primarily governed by like
12:43 dopamine and the nucleus accumbens
12:46 um we'll see anhedonia which is the
12:47 inability to enjoy particular things and
12:51 then other things that we tend to see is
12:52 that a lot of addiction is not actually
12:56 um sort of making things fun so if you
12:58 talk to Gamers and I don't know if
12:59 you've ever binged video games but you
13:01 know people can play games I certainly
13:03 have for eight 12 hours at a stretch but
13:05 if you ask that person
13:06 hour five hour six hour seven are you
13:09 having fun they're not gonna be having
13:11 fun if you watch them they're not going
13:13 to be like smiling and laughing and
13:15 triumphing and in fact quite the
13:16 opposite what you're going to see is
13:17 that they're tilting more they're
13:19 getting more frustrated shorter
13:22 tilting is when you basically like get
13:25 really really angry and lose your focus
13:27 in a video game okay so in in
13:30 competitive Sports you know people will
13:32 like if you lose lose a point or
13:34 something you'll go and you'll be angry
13:35 and then people you'll start to play
13:37 poorly because you're not like focused
13:39 oh it's like getting The Yips in a
13:42 normal spot like baseball or whatever
13:43 the guy just can't hit yeah can't hit
13:46 that right okay so we have this scenario
13:50 super normal stimuli have been able to
13:53 create a overclocked environment for our
13:56 brains to exist in we are unfit for
14:00 purpose we have a an Adaptive Pro we
14:03 have a mismatch in evolutionary
14:04 mismatches it would be called that what
14:06 we're able to enjoy virtually is
14:08 difficult to deliver to us in the real
14:10 world that means that the more time that
14:12 you spend online the more and more uh
14:16 unseductive and unattractive I suppose
14:19 the real world looks now
14:22 some of this is uh physiological in
14:26 terms of the adjustments that we've got
14:27 with dopamine sensitivity and stuff like
14:29 that but I imagine as well that a good
14:31 chunk of it is just the story that you
14:32 tell yourself about the kind of things
14:34 that you can do the
14:36 um the capacities that you believe that
14:37 you have the habits that you've got the
14:39 routine that you're in it's more than
14:41 just physiologically what's happening
14:42 it's like existentially what it's doing
14:45 to you so given that that's what's
14:47 happening with video games video games
14:48 you know created to be compelling I I
14:52 think people kind of understand that
14:53 there's a degree of entertainment there
14:54 something that probably even more people
14:56 have a problem with would be social
14:58 media is there something different
15:00 happening to the brain to our compulsion
15:04 with social media is it right to even
15:06 say that social media is an addiction is
15:08 it a compulsion how do you pass all of
15:10 this apart yeah so I think social media
15:13 is similar in some ways and different in
15:16 other ways I guess no surprise right so
15:18 if we once again what's similar so the
15:21 most similar thing is that platforms are
15:23 developing things that are more engaging
15:24 it's just what they engage with varies
15:28 depending on not only the specific type
15:30 of game but games versus social media
15:32 and even within social media you'll see
15:35 different kinds of Engagement
15:37 so generally speaking social media
15:39 engages with a couple of things the most
15:41 important thing that social media
15:42 engages with is emotional activation
15:45 so if you think about why does a human
15:48 being switch from let's say Twitter to
15:50 Reddit or Reddit to Twitter or Twitter
15:52 to tick tock or Reddit to tick tock what
15:55 you tend to see is that if you're
15:56 emotionally engaged you're gonna stay on
15:58 and if you get bored that's when you
16:01 switch but what does boredom usually
16:03 mean people may think it's dopamine but
16:05 it's not actually dopamine because a lot
16:07 of people will use a lot of social media
16:10 even though they feel really bad and the
16:13 best example of this is some people will
16:15 like break up with their ex right and
16:17 then like late at night you're feeling
16:18 bad about yourself and you start
16:20 stalking your ex that doesn't make you
16:22 feel good that's not dopamine and then
16:24 you see your ex out with someone else
16:26 who's more attractive than you or maybe
16:28 has a nicer car or something like that
16:30 and so a lot of people will actually if
16:32 you really tunnel down and there's
16:33 Research into this that shows that what
16:34 is the emotional experience of engaging
16:36 in social media it's not always positive
16:39 so if you really look at like what kind
16:40 of social media crosses your your feed
16:43 it's stuff that's emotionally engaging
16:45 we're hearing about war we're hearing
16:47 about climate change we're hearing about
16:48 something in some news organizations
16:50 even like play into this right where
16:51 like fear-mongering is a thing
16:53 and and so what we start to see is it's
16:55 really emotional engagement that social
16:58 media like really captures
17:01 um and so the people who are kind of
17:02 vulnerable to being emotionally engaged
17:04 will will sort of get caught up in
17:07 another thing that we tend to see is
17:09 that the human identity and you kind of
17:11 alluded to this existential point
17:15 social media allows us to create a
17:18 virtual identity and we can start to get
17:20 reinforcement of like these years of
17:22 millions of years of evolutionary
17:24 circuitry through the internet
17:26 so I want to be well respected in
17:28 Psychiatry or let's say in in a society
17:30 so I became a psychiatrist or medical
17:32 doctor I mean even then
17:34 as a medical doctor like there were
17:36 times in my life where I was kind of
17:37 thinking about well like is Psychiatry
17:39 like is that being a real doctor how
17:41 will I feel if I say I'm a neurosurgeon
17:43 which my my wife was like you should be
17:45 a neurosurgeon and like what does she
17:47 care she wants to introduce her husband
17:48 who's a neurosurgeon and I was like well
17:50 I've decided to do something close
17:52 it's in the same ballpark but it's a
17:54 little bit different
17:55 so we all crave the approval of other
17:58 human beings and now social media
18:00 quantifies that right
18:03 do people like me like normally the
18:05 human mind doesn't really know like
18:06 there's no way to measure it right you
18:08 sort of feel it but now I get 100 likes
18:11 and someone else gets 200.
18:13 and so what social media really does is
18:15 captures a lot of that identity-focused
18:17 kind of people who are concerned about
18:19 being something self-esteem now we have
18:22 filters which sort of fix the problem
18:24 and make the problem worse which is
18:26 oftentimes what we see in in social
18:28 media so the more that I use filters
18:30 the better I feel about my presence on
18:32 the internet but each time I use a
18:35 I'm not accepting the way that I look in
18:38 and so it'll make the problem worse
18:41 which is why I think we see some of a
18:42 lot of this like extreme filter using
18:46 doesn't you know seems like it isn't
18:49 real and people can kind of tell why do
18:51 people do that I think it's because they
18:52 kind of go down this rabbit hole
18:55 the comparison between are you having
18:59 and are you still using the technology
19:01 now it's so interesting because you know
19:04 I think about when I do get stuck Doom
19:06 scrolling through something and if I was
19:08 to ask myself that question you know
19:10 after 15 minutes probably or 20 minutes
19:13 on any social media I'm no longer having
19:16 I spoke to huberman about this and I
19:20 thought this was a very interesting
19:21 reframe I'd love to get your thoughts on
19:23 this he sees social media usage more as
19:27 a compulsion than an addiction
19:29 in your opinion is there a meaningful
19:31 difference between the two do you
19:33 believe that this is the case does it
19:35 even matter whether it's the case or not
19:37 well I mean what what do you what how
19:40 are you defining the word compulsion
19:42 he said that it was more like a
19:45 compulsive action to pull the phone out
19:47 to look at it and to scroll to cycle
19:50 through all of the apps because I can't
19:52 remember his definition of addiction I
19:54 want to say it is uh
19:56 continuing to use a stimulus long after
20:00 the satisfactory nature of the stimulus
20:04 has been completed something like that
20:05 I'm going to guess that you'll know the
20:06 definition that I'm using yeah so let's
20:09 let's talk let's define things okay
20:11 so let's start by defining what is an
20:14 so the features of an addiction first of
20:17 all is that it impairs function so it
20:19 causes you some kind of damage
20:21 and the problem with addictions is that
20:23 there are solutions that fix a
20:24 short-term problem but damage things
20:28 so if we look at a lot of features of
20:30 addiction like let's say I'm addicted to
20:32 opiates and what opiates do is they make
20:34 me feel good temporarily but they cause
20:37 me problems because let's say I'm
20:38 stressed about work and I use an opiate
20:41 or I use marijuana or something like
20:42 that my stress goes away
20:46 it doesn't fix any of my problems and if
20:49 I let's say get high today and then I
20:52 don't work on this project or whatever
20:53 like I I have one less day to work on it
20:56 so an addiction is is usually a behavior
20:59 that we engage in that despite the
21:02 damage that it does to us we continue to
21:04 engage in it now why do we engage in
21:06 addictions usually it's because they
21:08 provide some kind of relief or reward
21:10 and if we look at social media and video
21:13 games they're sort of very similar to
21:14 addictions in the sense that they
21:16 suppress negative emotional circuitry
21:18 which by the way is why it's more than
21:20 dopamine so even if you play a game for
21:23 eight hours let's say I'm ruining my
21:25 life and this is an experience that I
21:26 had firsthand right was failing out of
21:28 college and like how could I forget
21:31 failing out of college I could play
21:33 video games so it's not even the game is
21:35 fun at eight or nine hours but that
21:37 suppression of the amygdala and the
21:39 limbic system is like kind of there so
21:42 we know that a lot of what makes video
21:44 games addictive is like the fact that
21:47 push problems away temporarily which is
21:49 very similar to all these other
21:51 substances like if I get drunk right I'm
21:53 not worried about anything
21:54 so in that way you know that's what an
21:58 now a compulsion at least the the
22:01 technical term of like a clinical term
22:03 right so if we're talking about
22:04 obsessive compulsive disorder
22:06 in that way a compulsion is usually a
22:08 behavior that we engage in that has some
22:12 kind of effect on our cognition
22:15 so so it like it I have to do something
22:17 to make me feel a particular way
22:20 and what I would say is there's
22:22 absolutely like a habitual that's maybe
22:24 what I would use there's absolutely a
22:27 habitual or a conditioning aspect to
22:30 technology usage which they're very good
22:32 at and I don't know if you've ever had
22:34 this experience but this happens to me
22:35 all the time where I will realize that I
22:38 am not liking what I'm using like a
22:41 particular device for and then what I'll
22:43 do is close the app and then open it
22:46 so we are absolutely being conditioned
22:49 but this is also where if you kind of
22:51 look at it the circuitry is a little bit
22:52 different there's habit circuitry
22:54 there's dopamine reward circuitry
22:56 there's like suppressing our amygdala
22:58 and all of that stuff is active when it
23:00 comes to technology usage so I think
23:02 it's kind of like all of you above we'll
23:04 get back to talking to Dr K one minute
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24:13 makes it so powerful the fact that you
24:15 have all of these different networks all
24:17 coming together into this perfect uh
24:20 blend yeah absolutely and why is it
24:23 coming together so so profoundly it's
24:25 really interesting because there's like
24:26 there's almost this darwinian slug match
24:29 going on right now between platforms
24:32 so if you look at like Tick Tock versus
24:35 YouTube shorts versus Instagram reels
24:38 whatever Google's going to come up with
24:40 at some point or I guess they've got
24:43 um you know so what are all these
24:44 platforms doing they're actually
24:45 competing for your attention
24:48 the prize that they get is like your
24:51 and so like whether Google wins Tick
24:53 Tock wins or Amazon wins or whoever wins
24:56 the one guaranteed thing is that there's
24:59 definitely going to be one loser and
25:01 that's actually you you are going to
25:03 lose control of your mind which is
25:04 exactly what happens
25:06 and even then I don't think the
25:07 platforms are evil I mean maybe they are
25:09 but that hasn't been my experience I
25:11 think it's just they have a product
25:12 right and everyone wants their eyes on
25:16 and so what they're figuring out is how
25:18 can I engage people by tapping into a
25:21 different you know Circuit of the brain
25:23 how can I help condition someone to use
25:25 my app so it's not just about dopamine
25:28 it's not just about it's emotional
25:30 engagement it's dopamine it's habit
25:32 formation all that kind of stuff
25:35 even pings and notifications they're
25:37 good at that given that we are
25:40 hopelessly outgunned up against billion
25:43 dollar companies with machine learning
25:45 algorithms some of which are the most
25:46 powerful ever designed in human history
25:49 and an entire team of software Engineers
25:51 behind every single button press
25:53 how can people set healthy boundaries
25:55 around gaming and social media
25:58 so I think thankfully we've we've got
26:00 a lot of good answers so I think this is
26:03 where prior to going to medical school I
26:05 spent seven years studying to become a
26:07 monk and the cool thing is that like
26:09 what the monks if you look at sort of
26:10 the Hindu and Buddhist traditions and
26:12 like meditation and mindfulness they
26:14 really figured out like how the mind
26:16 works and in a different way from like
26:18 the West so in the west we sort of
26:21 looked at a thousand different minds and
26:22 we sort of said okay if we average them
26:25 all together like what floats to the
26:27 surface but in the East they had sample
26:29 sizes of one so they're like okay how
26:31 can I understand where my desires come
26:33 from how can I get control of my desires
26:36 a lot of that stuff is kind of baked in
26:38 and what I actually find is the most
26:40 effective is starting with some of those
26:42 so understanding first of all that all
26:45 of Technology really causes one problem
26:50 causes you to lose awareness
26:53 so anytime you get sucked in and in fact
26:55 this is why we want to use technology
26:57 right I want to go into a video game and
26:59 I want to get sucked into the video game
27:01 I want to binge watch shows so if you
27:04 look at like HBO and Netflix or whatever
27:06 right there they like really want us to
27:07 binge watch and we love binge watching
27:08 so if you look at the common element to
27:10 all these things it's a loss of
27:13 so the more that we can cultivate
27:15 awareness of things
27:18 the better off will be
27:20 and there's there's good evidence from
27:22 this from the world of Psychiatry as
27:23 well so if you look at like addiction
27:24 Psychiatry what we find is that if you
27:27 ask someone who relapses they'll say
27:29 yeah I was sober for six months and then
27:31 I don't know what happened
27:34 I just relapsed but what you really
27:36 discover and we sort of see this is that
27:38 people who are vulnerable to addiction
27:40 have a lack of awareness of their
27:42 internal emotional state and as
27:44 emotional stressors rise and rise and
27:46 Rise they like reach a particular
27:47 threshold that causes them to relapse so
27:50 a big part of what we do clinically when
27:51 we work with people is just raising
27:54 and so I'd say the first thing if you
27:55 want to set up healthy boundaries like
27:57 be aware of yourself why do you reach it
28:00 for it in the first place like are there
28:02 particular times of the day that you
28:06 is there an emotional state that you
28:08 find yourself in that causes you to get
28:10 your phone out or to open up social
28:12 media on your laptop or to start
28:14 watching Netflix or to start playing a
28:15 video game absolutely so a simple
28:18 example of this is like if you think
28:19 about 30 years ago if I was trying to
28:22 study I would get distracted right I
28:24 wouldn't be able to focus on the
28:25 textbook and that's okay I would get
28:28 distracted for like a couple minutes I'm
28:29 sitting in a library I don't go anywhere
28:32 I don't do anything my mind wanders I
28:34 lose five minutes I lose 10 minutes and
28:36 then I come back to the text I'm like
28:37 all right time to get back to work now
28:39 what happens is even a 30 second
28:40 distraction I'm studying I pull out my
28:42 phone and I click a button and then my
28:45 mind is sucked into this like you know
28:47 pipeline of like attention grabbing
28:50 behavior and five minutes becomes three
28:53 and so even a you know 30 second
28:56 attentional lapse now costs me an hour
29:02 okay does that mean therefore that we
29:06 just need or the most robust solution to
29:09 stop yourself from using computers and
29:11 social media is to go places where you
29:14 don't have your phone and you don't have
29:16 video games is that the is that the most
29:17 robust tactic well so I mean I think
29:20 it's kind of like a lot of different
29:21 things right so we we
29:23 um I think it's first of all cultivating
29:25 more awareness of of the present and how
29:27 you feel and what your triggers are and
29:30 then at the other end they're absolutely
29:31 environmental aspects so one thing that
29:34 you know I'll tell people is that if
29:36 you're trying to get work done it's a
29:37 good idea to silence your phone or even
29:39 move it to the next room
29:41 um I I I'll tell people also like for
29:44 example if I'm working with patients who
29:45 are having trouble with sleeping at
29:47 to tell them hey keep your phone like at
29:50 the opposite end of the room or even
29:51 outside of your room and then everyone
29:53 sort of asks me like but what if there's
29:55 an emergency what if I get a phone call
29:56 in the middle of the night and then I
29:57 turn around and I ask them how many
29:59 times have you gotten a call in the last
30:01 two years that someone has needed your
30:03 help within five minutes
30:05 right and the answer is almost always
30:07 zero unless I'm working with a doctor in
30:09 which case like you know we have pagers
30:12 um so I think they're absolutely kind of
30:15 conditioning things or environmental
30:17 things that you can do using grayscale
30:19 being really aggressive with
30:22 um but also like the physical location
30:25 and this is the other thing that that
30:27 platform developers are really good in
30:28 getting good at so if you think about
30:31 the thing about Biometrics and face ID
30:33 is it actually reduces the time to
30:36 so now even like the three seconds that
30:38 it used to take or two seconds to put in
30:40 your code now you just have to pick it
30:42 up and it it knows it's even that
30:44 friction has been removed yep that's
30:46 what they're doing removing all the
30:48 okay so we have understanding your
30:50 triggers understanding the mental states
30:53 that you get into the emotional states
30:57 um whether it's been a hard day at work
30:59 whether this is some sort of coping
31:00 mechanism because things are stressful
31:02 or you're just tired or whatever what
31:04 are the precursors that happen before
31:07 you then descend into using technology
31:11 after the event you reflect on and wish
31:14 that you hadn't done there are some
31:16 environmental cues and factors that we
31:18 can use uh distance being one of them in
31:20 that you can't use a screen that you
31:22 can't put your hands on or see so
31:24 keeping it away sleeping with your phone
31:25 outside of the bedroom is there anything
31:27 else when it comes to good boundaries
31:29 what are the other longest levers yeah
31:31 so I think the other thing to consider
31:33 is that so we think about this as like a
31:36 problem that has a solution we don't
31:38 think about boundaries as skills that
31:42 built up right so if you think about
31:44 like a muscle like how do I lift more
31:46 weight I need to maybe do more weight
31:49 and if you kind of think about how do I
31:51 hold a boundary against a technology
31:54 that is becoming more and more invasive
31:56 you get stronger at holding boundaries
31:58 so what I'll do is I'll also give people
32:01 exercises and this largely comes from
32:03 the meditative tradition so you can like
32:05 formally sit down and meditate but
32:06 there's a lot of exercises that you can
32:09 develop based on the theory of
32:10 meditation my favorite thing to have
32:12 people do is no more phones in bathrooms
32:15 so like everyone takes their phone to
32:17 the bathroom now and if you just like
32:20 think about it like if I like say that
32:22 and people are listening to that the
32:24 instinctive reaction is going to be like
32:27 oh my God don't take that thing away but
32:29 like what are you gonna lose what am I
32:31 gonna do while I'm pooping Dr K you're
32:34 gonna do what human beings have done for
32:36 millions of years prior to the
32:38 development of Technology with the poop
32:40 just be with it so so what's happened in
32:43 our society as a whole is we have become
32:45 intolerant of boredom yes so if you want
32:48 to get control over every bit of
32:50 technology in your life you have to
32:52 learn how to not fear boredom and give
32:54 yourself small doses of boredom you know
32:58 don't take an audio book the next time
33:00 you go for a walk or don't listen to
33:01 music or something like that right and
33:04 and just start to like pick particular
33:05 discrete things don't watch things while
33:10 um so so there are all kinds of things
33:12 that you can sort of set kind of certain
33:14 lines and then really practice those and
33:16 then your mind will literally become
33:18 stronger so your ability to restrain
33:20 your attention and tolerate boredom will
33:23 increase is that something that you see
33:25 reflected neurologically
33:28 psychologically is this something that
33:29 actually shows up in the literature
33:31 somehow oh absolutely so so one simple
33:34 example in so many ways so let's talk
33:37 about literature in different ways so
33:39 the first thing is let's talk about
33:41 let's say psychological literature
33:44 so we know that for example people with
33:47 have difficulty restraining their
33:49 impulses and they tend to get highly
33:52 distracted so we know that meditation
33:54 for example helps people with
33:56 impulsivity and improving Focus that we
34:00 kind of know if you sort of think about
34:01 it what is the practice of meditation
34:03 it's like literally practicing focusing
34:06 on a neurological level we know that
34:08 there are brain correlates with things
34:10 like ADHD like frontal lobe dysfunction
34:13 so the frontal lobes are Master Control
34:15 parts of the brain that they can sort of
34:17 restrain and direct our attention
34:20 and so what happens when we do things
34:21 like meditate or some of these practices
34:23 is that we learn how to like it
34:25 strengthens our frontal lobes and
34:27 there's even data that shows that it
34:28 strengthens sort of the inhibitory
34:30 circuits of the brain so our frontal
34:32 lobes can go and put the brakes on a
34:36 and then even if we're talking about old
34:38 old literature so we're talking about
34:40 the Sanskrit literature from like 5 000
34:43 there's this this one thing there's this
34:45 one principle called
34:47 which means focusing on one thing at a
34:50 time and thousands of years ago they
34:52 were like hey here's a technique to
34:54 focus on just one thing at a time and
34:56 you can kind of practice just doing one
35:00 and so there's a lot of scientific stuff
35:02 from everywhere from Clinical literature
35:03 to basic science literature to even like
35:09 a lot of the work that I've done a lot
35:11 of the conversations that I've had
35:15 Adam Alta who wrote uh irresistible
35:19 um one of the ladies who is a lead
35:21 researcher and I want to say it's uh
35:23 cybernetics is that con computer brain
35:26 interfacing stuff like that but from a
35:29 psychological side and every single
35:31 person I've spoken to about attention
35:33 says people believe that they can
35:34 multitask first off you can't secondly
35:38 what you think that you mean by
35:40 multitasking isn't multitasking it's
35:42 parallel processing and you definitely
35:45 can't do that you can maybe task switch
35:48 and lose a ton of focus whilst task
35:49 switching but you definitely can't
35:51 parallel process you can do one thing
35:53 that you're focused on you can drive and
35:55 talk but you're not thinking about
35:56 driving you're passively driving
35:58 one of the things I've considered
35:59 throughout this conversation so far is
36:02 we've spoken about the fact that social
36:04 media and video games are very
36:06 compelling they cause people to be
36:09 um incredibly motivated to continue to
36:11 do them which can make the real world
36:15 one of the solutions to that presumably
36:17 would be to take some of the principles
36:19 of video games and move them into the
36:21 real world to gamify some of the things
36:23 that you want yourself to do in the real
36:26 you may have read hardwiring Happiness
36:28 by Rick Hansen I I haven't good book
36:31 very very simple uh idea which is that
36:35 after you do something that you want to
36:37 do more of or that gives you in the real
36:40 world a uh little uh trigger of
36:43 happiness you go for a walk you complete
36:45 a workout today I managed to get my
36:47 email inbox down to zero I've got to
36:50 inbox zero and it's been in three
36:52 figures for months for [ __ ] ages and
36:56 we are tempted to immediately just go
36:58 right brilliant that's done now on to
37:00 the next thing what have I got to do
37:02 his advice is to sit for about one to
37:05 two minutes and just allow yourself to
37:09 marinade in wow I I did a thing that was
37:13 good that was really good I completed
37:15 the workout I went for the walk I got up
37:17 on time I did the meditation I got my
37:18 morning routine I got rid of 120 emails
37:25 and then you can go about your day so
37:27 his he comes from a neuroscience
37:29 background his argument and he was the
37:31 guy I'm pretty sure that kind uh neurons
37:33 that fire together wire together so if
37:37 you want to do more of a thing
37:39 allow yourself to feel the reward from
37:41 it yet we do I notice it in myself I
37:43 finally complete a task and it's it's
37:46 kind of like relief but it's almost like
37:48 bitter relief I'm like right thank God
37:50 that's done now on to the next thing you
37:52 go no no you've just earned this period
37:54 where you can sit and and be all
37:58 self-righteous and and up on a high
38:00 horse for at least a couple of minutes
38:01 uh so that's one tactic that I'm trying
38:04 to use a lot more at the moment which is
38:06 allowing myself to kind of genuinely
38:09 sit with a good experience and feel that
38:12 for more than a nanosecond
38:15 okay how's that working out for you
38:18 um I need to do it more but it is good
38:20 uh I've certainly been able to
38:29 in advance of completing something that
38:31 I usually don't want to do
38:33 so let's say that I am going to go and
38:35 do a hard workout or I'm gonna go do
38:37 zone two cardio right it's the most
38:39 boring thing in the world
38:40 I know that at the end of that I'm going
38:43 to feel good and because I've spent a
38:45 good bit of time sitting with that good
38:47 feeling it almost feels like I've
38:49 started to bring that feeling before I
38:52 begin to do it that I associate the
38:54 activity of doing something even though
38:56 it sucks and it's kind of boring because
38:58 I know at the end of it it's going to be
38:59 good I've managed to bring that feeling
39:01 from the end to the start which is
39:02 reduce the activation energy to go and
39:04 do the thing yeah so I think it's it's
39:06 really useful to try to do stuff like
39:09 that I think we see that a lot for
39:11 example with like practicing gratitude
39:13 where a lot of people will
39:16 skate over their wins and focus on their
39:18 L's I think a big thing that people
39:19 don't really realize is we're not wired
39:24 so if you kind of think about
39:26 you know people who sit and relax after
39:29 getting a w don't get to where you and I
39:33 are Chris the people who say I got to
39:36 inbox zero today good job what's next
39:39 that's what actually correlates with
39:43 like material success
39:46 right and I see this a lot because I've
39:48 worked with a lot of people who are like
39:49 very high functioning like entrepreneurs
39:50 like CEOs people in finance and medicine
39:54 and neurosurgeons and whatnot and it's
39:56 the people who drive themselves
39:57 relentlessly forward that actually
39:59 correlates with a lot of success which
40:01 is where this whole like Sigma grind set
40:03 kind of stuff comes from is right like
40:05 it's about grinding grinding grinding
40:06 grinding grinding and that's also where
40:08 we need to kind of take a step back and
40:10 really ask ourselves what is our brain
40:13 it's not wired for contentment it's
40:17 and so what what it's kind of
40:19 interesting right because you're working
40:22 to be like to be able to enjoy something
40:27 and so it's kind of like you're in this
40:28 Relentless pursuit of like better
40:31 right so like okay I why do I need to
40:33 exercise to be better and now I'm not
40:36 happy with being better so what do I
40:37 need to do I need to get better at being
40:39 better I need to learn how to be better
40:42 and so it's kind of bizarre but
40:43 sometimes I'll see this with a lot of
40:44 the really successful people I work with
40:46 it's like now even happiness is
40:47 something that I need to grind towards
40:50 and I'm going to read books and I'm
40:51 going to understand Neuroscience but if
40:53 you really kind of take a step back it's
40:55 actually a manifestation of the same
40:56 thing you're going to grind your your
40:58 way to Enlightenment people even use the
41:01 rest and Recovery days as part of their
41:04 productivity oh well I'm going to take
41:06 I'm going to take this day off because
41:07 it means that tomorrow I can come back
41:08 harder and I can work even harder hang
41:10 on hang on a [ __ ] second that that is
41:13 not that is not what a day off is
41:15 supposed to be a day off is not supposed
41:16 to be part of your productivity system
41:18 to allow you to come back to work harder
41:21 there's this really awesome example of
41:23 this and someone emailed me and said
41:25 that I got it right I thought I got it
41:26 wrong and this guy emailed you'd studied
41:28 Classics and told me that I got it right
41:30 in ancient Greece the ancient Greek word
41:32 for work translated as not at leisure so
41:36 work was seen as an aberration it was
41:38 something that you did when you weren't
41:40 doing the Leisure thing
41:42 roll the clock forward now Leisure is
41:44 the thing that facilitates work it's not
41:46 even the thing that you do when you're
41:48 not at work it's the thing which allows
41:50 you to do more work
41:52 I I think that that's I would tend to
41:55 agree right so I think that what we tend
41:58 to find is like if we look at
41:59 productivity having your internal values
42:02 having even like a cognitive fingerprint
42:05 that fits your work work quote unquote
42:08 lifestyle is like a huge part of
42:12 getting all of it so when I even think a
42:15 little bit about like my day so one of
42:17 the things that I found is that I tend
42:18 to get bored easily so rather than just
42:21 seeing patients over in my office like
42:23 over and over and over again day after
42:25 day year after year I do different stuff
42:27 throughout the day and so this doesn't
42:28 feel like work for me even though
42:30 technically it's work this is fun
42:33 and and I think this is a big challenge
42:34 that a lot of people face right now is
42:36 they're struggling with this sort of
42:37 idea of like they think about work and
42:40 Leisure is like two different things
42:43 and then this is why we see burnout
42:44 because as you said you know Leisure is
42:46 what allows you to work great but when
42:49 you don't have that
42:51 then you can grind and grind and grind
42:53 and you're gonna burn out and burnout is
42:55 like an epidemic level like levels right
42:58 now just in basically every field that
43:00 we're talking about we'll get back to
43:01 talking to Dr Kane one minute but first
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43:57 checkout speaking of high performers
43:59 you've spoken to some of the world's
44:01 biggest streamers people like Pokemon
44:02 and xqc and Asthma gold most critical
44:05 etc etc Ludwig as well
44:07 what are some of the lessons that you've
44:10 learned from speaking to people who are
44:15 that they've they've won being online
44:16 they're the most online people on the
44:18 planet what have you learned from
44:22 wow so a couple of different things the
44:24 first is it's not nearly as fun or easy
44:27 as they make it look
44:30 so oftentimes and I've worked with a lot
44:32 of people so you know was in Boston for
44:35 a while and working with people out of
44:36 startups and stuff out of MIT and
44:38 Harvard and just really really hard
44:40 working people I work with people at
44:41 like Goldman Sachs and Google and and
44:43 whatnot and and like there are a lot of
44:46 people who work really hard I don't
44:47 think people really appreciate how hard
44:50 the people who are at the top are and I
44:54 don't think people really appreciate the
44:56 balance of skills that's necessary
44:59 to achieve that so it's some amount of
45:01 spontaneity and being able to have fun
45:03 on command so these are people who are
45:06 in the business of friendship and I
45:08 think the biggest thing that people
45:09 don't understand is the level of
45:11 sacrifice it takes to get there so what
45:14 we see is someone who's huge and
45:17 recognized and has all these sponsorship
45:18 deals and presumably has all this money
45:20 and things like that but the levels of
45:22 sacrifice because what they really have
45:23 to do is sacrifice just about every
45:25 dimension of their life
45:27 so what we sort of think about even when
45:29 I compare them to Bankers is like
45:30 bankers get to go to work and have their
45:32 professional relationships and they get
45:34 to go home and they get to have their
45:37 but what we really see with streamers is
45:39 they sacrifice on every dimension
45:42 so your friends will invite you or not
45:46 invite you depending on what the collab
45:50 right and then if you turn some so like
45:52 even friendship becomes a part of your
45:54 job like the the other thing that I
45:56 think people don't really appreciate is
45:59 the human brain is not designed to deal
46:03 with criticism from millions of people
46:06 so if we think about like tribal
46:08 structures you know if I grew up in a
46:10 tribe of 300 people how often am I going
46:15 and we have these different biases that
46:17 people don't really think about which is
46:19 that even if 99 people tell me that they
46:21 like me if one person tells me that they
46:23 don't like me that's the thing that my
46:25 mind is gonna clue in on so now you take
46:28 these people who get millions of points
46:32 and their brain is literally designed
46:34 and I've seen this as a streamer myself
46:36 where I can see tons of messages
46:38 scrolling past faster than I can read
46:41 them but my brain can pick out the one
46:44 thing that is actually damaging it
46:46 actually enters into my conscious
46:48 thought and this is where the brain is
46:50 processing all kinds of info information
46:52 that we're not aware of
46:54 and so I think people don't really get
46:58 and the beautiful thing is that the
47:00 people who are successful are the ones
47:01 who are able to find some kind of
47:04 otherwise you just can't sustain it and
47:06 you're like you'll burn out and then
47:09 doesn't work so they're amazing
47:11 resilient individuals it's almost like a
47:13 battle of attrition
47:14 in that way absolutely and most people
47:17 don't can't make it to the Finish Line
47:19 it's like a marathon That Never Ends
47:21 there's a quote from Jason Park in one
47:23 of my favorites that says Your Heroes
47:25 aren't Gods they're just regular people
47:26 who probably got good at One Thing by
47:28 neglecting literally everything else
47:32 yeah I think that that's probably true I
47:35 I think but what I what I see at the
47:37 highest levels of performance is that
47:39 you usually have to be good at a lot of
47:40 things and you can't neglect too much
47:43 because it's going to come and catch up
47:45 with you eventually absolutely you know
47:46 your health will catch up with you yeah
47:48 but that's so there's a a guy in the UK
47:51 who is a weightlifting coach uh sorry a
47:54 powerlifting coach can't get that wrong
47:55 and one of my friends started working
47:57 with him he works with people for free
47:59 he's this Savant programmer unbelievably
48:03 smart but he's 78 or something sort of
48:05 old guy and he gets unbelievable results
48:08 for the athletes he works with he
48:10 doesn't charge anybody he's already made
48:11 his money he retires he works with
48:13 people on invite only and the
48:15 programming is ruthlessly hard what I
48:17 realized was he was getting around about
48:20 two to two and a half years of progress
48:22 within one year of programming but the
48:24 reason that he was doing this was
48:25 because he was absolutely battering his
48:27 athletes into the ground now what you
48:30 end up with is a scenario where the
48:32 athletes who end up Surviving this who
48:34 don't get injured who don't get burned
48:36 out who don't get too tired who don't
48:38 obviously are going to have made
48:40 unbelievable progress because the
48:43 programming's brutal it's more volume
48:45 it's more frequent it's high weights
48:49 and survivability bias or survivorship
48:51 bias means that the only ones that do
48:54 make it to the End by virtue of the fact
48:56 they've made it to the end
48:57 have unbelievable progress what you
48:59 don't get to see are the attrition rate
49:02 it's how many people fell away what's
49:04 your churn how many people got injured
49:06 how many people gave up on their passion
49:08 and this is a lens I need to come up
49:12 with a name for it I need to meme this
49:14 this is a lens through which I see a lot
49:16 of very difficult Pursuits that
49:18 basically it it does come down to a
49:19 battle of attrition and if there is
49:21 somebody that can out suffer you if
49:24 there is someone for whom they can go
49:26 seven days without seeing sunlight but
49:28 you can only go half a day without
49:32 in some regards they have a competitive
49:35 yeah so I you know I I I'd Express a
49:39 push back on that so I think that's a
49:43 commonly accepted View
49:45 that the people who sacrifice the most
49:51 but honestly Chris in my experience with
49:53 lots of people and even myself like so
49:55 you know I did pretty well in medical
49:57 school I didn't study over two hours a
50:00 like I had caught like I tried it for
50:03 the first month where everyone else was
50:04 like you know we're gonna go to class
50:06 and we're gonna say the library 10
50:07 o'clock at night 11 o'clock at night and
50:09 I was like I just can't do that so I
50:11 studied two hours a day and I did fine
50:14 and and I think that there's this idea
50:18 being successful requires sacrifice but
50:21 I think there's a huge selection bias
50:23 there usually the people who are talking
50:26 about the sacrifice they made to succeed
50:29 are like there's a selection bias there
50:31 the people who are like yeah it was
50:33 actually pretty easy for me you don't
50:35 actually hear from them
50:37 and so there's something almost like
50:38 psychological where I see that
50:40 you know if you succeed and you made a
50:42 sacrifice it's very psychologically
50:44 difficult to swallow that you didn't
50:46 need to make the sacrifice in the first
50:49 so oh wow it's it's really interesting
50:52 this is like data behind this too
50:54 so the way that people value what they
50:58 get correlates with the price that they
51:00 pay there's a study that was done I
51:03 don't remember exactly where I I'm
51:04 slipping on the reference but people
51:06 actually asked people who joined
51:07 fraternities in University
51:10 how good is your fraternity and what it
51:13 what a really interesting variable is
51:15 that the more the fraternity demeans you
51:17 the higher the value of the fraternity
51:19 even though by some objective measures
51:21 like some people have really good
51:22 connections but one of the worst
51:24 fraternities on campus people were like
51:27 this is the best fraternity and what was
51:29 their hazing process they stripped them
51:31 down naked tied them all to trees and
51:34 then were urinated on by other people
51:37 and when you go through that sacrifice
51:39 you can't psychologically say yeah I
51:42 didn't get anything for that I just
51:43 sacrificed a ton for nothing and I
51:45 didn't need to but look really the work
51:48 that I do with people is all about hey
51:49 actually you don't need to sacrifice
51:51 that much build a healthy balanced
51:53 lifestyle get yourself into the Flow
51:55 State more often and you can actually
52:02 by paying half the cost with nowhere
52:05 near as much suffering absolutely this
52:07 is a really really important Insight I
52:09 absolutely love it I love the reframe I
52:11 love everything about this I think as
52:13 well there is something around an
52:14 incentive or there is a disincentive for
52:17 people to talk about things not being
52:19 hard on the internet first off
52:22 if it wasn't difficult then that means
52:24 that it's less of a costly signal to you
52:26 so the achievement that you have is less
52:28 impressive secondly there is so much
52:30 more criticism on the internet for you
52:32 if it doesn't look like you had to go
52:34 through things oh easy for you to say
52:36 must be nice for you to say because if
52:39 somebody else does find it more
52:41 difficult or can't have theory of mind
52:42 to understand that it could be done just
52:44 through more of a flow state or less
52:46 grinding or whatever that means that
52:47 you're going to get criticized more
52:48 there's another uh lesson that I learned
52:51 when I was on Rogan's show and I memed
52:54 it into Rogan's value difficulty
52:57 look at the car he's driving look at the
53:00 watch he's wearing look at the girl he's
53:01 with that's unattainable to many people
53:03 so it seems like it's valuable but then
53:05 you attained it and you realized oh this
53:08 isn't valuable this is just difficult to
53:10 get and there's a difference there's a
53:12 big difference what's valuable is
53:13 something that fulfills you
53:14 intellectually emotionally spiritually
53:16 lovingly most smart people realize that
53:19 there is value in stepping outside of
53:20 their comfort and on the other side of
53:22 discomfort is something valuable we're
53:24 told that things are difficult to attain
53:26 because if they weren't that we're told
53:28 that worthwhile things are difficult to
53:30 attain because if they weren't difficult
53:31 to attain they wouldn't be worthwhile
53:33 and this is how non-valuable but
53:36 difficult things get slipped into our
53:38 desires without us noticing attaining
53:40 something worthwhile is often going to
53:42 be difficult but just because it's
53:44 difficult doesn't mean it's worthwhile
53:47 absolutely and I think the other thing
53:49 there is that you've got to also think
53:50 about the audience right so what
53:53 resonates with the audience what
53:55 resonates with the audience is hey if
53:56 something is hard for me
53:59 and you tell me it's super difficult and
54:01 you achieved that fits with my world
54:03 view so I'm gonna watch you
54:05 whereas if someone says hey this is
54:09 this guy is taking stuff for granted
54:11 just like you said I'm gonna click off
54:13 onto something else so there's
54:14 absolutely a selection bias towards
54:17 validating the difficult experiences
54:20 that most people have
54:21 I think the big irony is that oftentimes
54:24 and if you just think about something
54:26 that you've struggled with yourself
54:28 oftentimes once you figure it out it's
54:30 actually pretty easy
54:32 right but people kind of ignore that and
54:34 they just think that oh like
54:37 you know it's kind of bizarre but like
54:38 they just think like oh this stuff is
54:40 hard but once you figure out let's say
54:41 how to talk to girls like you just kind
54:43 of know and it's actually pretty easy
54:46 I suppose the uh the current trend of
54:49 Sigma grind set monk modes uh suffering
54:53 online as well plays into this
54:57 right because people think like because
54:58 what do people want people want a
55:00 guaranteed way to get to the top they'll
55:03 pay a sacrifice if you can guarantee
55:04 success and that's why it's like Sigma
55:06 grind set you just sacrifice everything
55:08 you've got and then you'll get to the
55:10 top uh this is the same as the dude that
55:13 coaches people that look the the you are
55:16 either going to give up or you're going
55:19 to succeed because the level of effort
55:22 and discomfort that you're going through
55:24 is inevitably going to bear fruit at
55:26 some point in the future however the
55:28 cost may be your sanity and Health and
55:31 Longevity and and well-being along the
55:35 yeah I mean so I like
55:37 that's a perspective but I think
55:39 honestly like I love being a clinical
55:41 doctor because medicine teaches you some
55:45 really hard lessons and the top of which
55:47 is you can fight really hard and you can
55:49 still lose like I've seen people die of
55:51 cancer I've seen people you know and
55:55 this is the thing that I think a lot of
55:57 people don't get is that sometimes
55:59 people are just gonna lose
56:01 like not everyone can succeed not
56:03 everyone can be a billionaire not
56:04 everyone and and you know it's kind of
56:06 bizarre but I think those people can
56:08 absolutely be helped they can absolutely
56:11 but I I think this sort of idea of like
56:13 you know you you can either give up or
56:16 you can succeed but my question is can
56:19 you succeed in like 10 of the time if
56:24 how do you square the fact that even
56:27 people that try incredibly hard will
56:30 with not wanting to disempower people
56:33 from uh or disincentivize people from
56:36 trying hard and from starting things
56:38 well if I try hard and I'm going to lose
56:40 what's the point in even starting
56:42 yeah so so my thought is first of all
56:48 so if you really look at it like most
56:51 things are most human beings who
56:52 struggle with something it's actually
56:54 like a gap in understanding
56:57 and and so like even in the ancient you
56:59 know Hindu and Buddhist texts they say
57:02 which is ignorance is the cause of
57:04 suffering like if you just don't know
57:05 how stuff works right so like I had a
57:08 kid one of my kids the other day tried
57:10 to open a pill bottle like for her gummy
57:13 vitamins and there's just a technique to
57:15 open pill bottles and she can try as
57:18 hard as she wants to until she
57:19 understands the technique and once you
57:21 have the the technique it becomes easy
57:23 and there's even stuff with with things
57:25 like studying and things like that where
57:27 there's a certain there's a science of
57:28 spaced repetition there's a science of
57:30 concentration there's a science of like
57:33 right if we take particular things and
57:36 you facilitate your gut microbiome it's
57:38 like it's crazy I've had some patients
57:40 who have had inflammatory bowel disease
57:42 for like 15 20 years
57:44 and no one has ever talked to them about
57:45 like controlling their diet and and
57:48 supporting their their gut microbiome
57:50 and they'll like do this stuff so they
57:52 went through like six months of
57:53 treatment and then they're like they're
57:54 cured right they have no no symptoms now
57:58 and so I think the the biggest thing
57:59 that that human beings really struggle
58:01 with is not that like you need to try
58:03 harder and in fact I think that's it's
58:04 such a if you really think about I'm not
58:06 trying to throw shade on anyone but you
58:09 either give up or you succeed that can
58:10 be a really toxic mentality because if
58:13 you're doing things wrong
58:15 what is that person going to tell you to
58:18 and if you're still doing it wrong try
58:20 harder try harder try harder right and
58:22 I've seen this once again I'm trying to
58:24 throw shade on anyone who's religious
58:25 but sometimes people are like yeah you
58:27 didn't pray hard enough
58:29 that's the reason it's not working
58:31 and so you you create a situation where
58:34 it's like an unfalsifiable hypothesis
58:36 that that creates a value judgment on
58:41 that hey if this isn't working you gave
58:45 you're a loser there are quitters and
58:48 they're doers and you fall into one
58:51 and and the reason those things work is
58:53 because it's really validating because
58:54 that's how those people feel about
58:55 themselves in the first place which is
58:57 why they're listening to a life coach
58:59 because if they're happily married with
59:00 like two kids and like you know I mean
59:03 maybe they're sort of into the success
59:04 stuff and things like that but like a
59:06 lot of those people just don't listen
59:07 you know because they're out too busy
59:09 living their lives is there's a lot of
59:11 stuff going on here that we've just got
59:12 to be careful about
59:14 and sometimes I mean I'm not saying that
59:16 this stuff is bad we'll encourage people
59:17 to work hard and don't give up and stuff
59:19 like that and sometimes you gotta try
59:20 but I think there's like a differential
59:22 diagnosis here where it's not that you
59:24 know you didn't try hard enough is just
59:26 one of the reasons why things may not be
59:29 I have a friend Aaron and every time
59:31 that we're in the gym he's very well
59:33 trained in movement uh and we were doing
59:37 holding some Copenhagen plank which for
59:39 me absolutely wrecks it wrecks my lower
59:41 body it wrecks my upper body and he
59:43 shouted from the other side of the room
59:44 what would this be like if it was easier
59:48 that was his cue his cue to me was
59:50 because your tense and everything's hard
59:52 and you're sweating and it hurts and I'm
59:53 Breathing heavily and [ __ ] I hate this
59:55 position and [ __ ] my adductors are so
59:57 weak and you just shouted from the other
59:59 side of the room what would this be like
01:00:00 if it was easier and I think that's a
01:00:02 cue in a question Greg McEwen talks
01:00:04 about it as well in his second book just
01:00:07 what what would it be like if it was
01:00:08 easier what would this challenge that
01:00:10 you're facing be like
01:00:12 if it was a little bit easier
01:00:14 I think that's a lovely cue and if you
01:00:16 kind of think about you know like
01:00:17 weightlifting right what's the point of
01:00:18 a spotter how much help how much energy
01:00:21 does a spotter actually provide when
01:00:23 you're on that last rep and you can't
01:00:25 push it any higher right and the spotter
01:00:27 just gives you like two fingers
01:00:29 just a tiny bit and that's honestly what
01:00:31 we've seen is that people don't need to
01:00:33 try a whole lot harder what they really
01:00:35 need is usually a tiny bit of help
01:00:40 I can't stop thinking about a video from
01:00:43 bro sign's life you know Don Mazzetti
01:00:45 he's like a comedian does YouTube stuff
01:00:46 this Channel's been around for forever
01:00:48 yeah and I've seen a little bit of a
01:00:50 stuff he did he did a breakdown of all
01:00:53 of the different gym archetypes I can't
01:00:54 stop seeing it that he basically
01:00:56 realized that uh Sigma Jim Bros he said
01:01:01 that Sigma mail is a gym emo and I was
01:01:04 like oh my God I can no longer unsee
01:01:06 that um so coming back to what we spoke
01:01:08 about before we were talking about
01:01:09 dopamine what are your thoughts on
01:01:11 dopamine fasting is there any evidence
01:01:15 um so I think that there is some
01:01:18 evidence for it I think some of it is
01:01:21 pretty good but the amount of bad
01:01:24 explanations out there are
01:01:28 really really high what's the landscape
01:01:30 of dopamine fasting then what's hot yeah
01:01:33 so the first the first thing is like
01:01:36 you can't fast from dopamine dopamine is
01:01:39 a neurotransmitter okay so this is and
01:01:41 the other thing is like people I don't
01:01:42 think people get this but
01:01:44 you know Parkinson's disease is a
01:01:47 deficiency of dopamine it's the death of
01:01:49 dopamine neurons in your substantia
01:01:51 [ __ ] you couldn't move you can't move
01:01:53 if you're out of dopamine
01:01:55 so we don't want to get rid of dopamine
01:01:56 dopamine's not bad it does all kinds of
01:01:58 stuff for us it's a neurotransmitter so
01:02:01 a neurotransmitter is just a chemical
01:02:03 signal it's like a letter of the
01:02:04 alphabet and people are like we're going
01:02:06 to remove the letter d and it's like
01:02:08 wait hold on that destroys a lot of
01:02:10 things besides dopamine right so so you
01:02:14 can't really fast from dopamine first of
01:02:19 I do think that there's a lot of good
01:02:21 healthy stuff that comes out of dopamine
01:02:24 fast so like I think it's useful right
01:02:26 so like taking a break from technology
01:02:28 is good for you in all manners of ways
01:02:31 but the whole point about technology is
01:02:33 you can't I I mean I actually wonder
01:02:34 about this there's some studies on
01:02:36 Naltrexone and stuff like that but I
01:02:38 don't think you can give someone a
01:02:39 dopamine blocker and like cure them of
01:02:40 their addiction you can do this a little
01:02:42 bit so there's some evidence that even
01:02:43 Naltrexone and some of these things that
01:02:45 interfere with dopamine signaling can
01:02:47 help with addictive behaviors but it's
01:02:49 not like uh one to one right so the
01:02:52 other thing that I think people really
01:02:53 need to understand is that technology
01:02:54 affects all kinds of other circuits in
01:02:56 your brain so the The Habit circuitry in
01:03:00 the brain is like governed just as much
01:03:01 by the endocannabinoids as it is by
01:03:05 so I think that like a lot of the
01:03:06 science stuff is kind of crap
01:03:11 if you implement some kind of dopamine
01:03:14 restriction which usually means
01:03:15 technology like I don't think people are
01:03:17 sort of saying like you can't have
01:03:18 dopamine like stop laughing right and
01:03:21 don't seem the most extreme version of
01:03:23 dopamine fasting where you're not
01:03:24 allowed to look at the people in the
01:03:27 I right so and this is the people that
01:03:29 here's here's your value difficulty
01:03:32 conflation conflation again right
01:03:34 because hey if it's harder it has to
01:03:37 and then you're also engendering so much
01:03:39 Placebo there because it's like wow I
01:03:41 like did this really thing and I must be
01:03:42 amazing now if I succeeded
01:03:44 but so I think a lot of the like the
01:03:46 scientific stuff is sort of BS
01:03:49 um and then the other thing to really
01:03:50 remember about the science is most of
01:03:52 the science is like extrapolated so so
01:03:54 it's you know like I said no one's
01:03:56 measuring dopamine concentrations in the
01:03:58 synaptic cleft and the nucleus accumbens
01:04:00 like no one's doing that everyone's
01:04:01 doing cross-sectional studies or
01:04:03 observational studies and so a lot of
01:04:05 what I base my stuff on is clinical
01:04:07 stuff which is also not really if you
01:04:09 think about it data right we work with
01:04:10 real human beings and the reason that we
01:04:13 need clinicians is because you can do a
01:04:14 scientific study about whatever you want
01:04:16 like you can do a cross-sectional study
01:04:18 but when it comes when it translates
01:04:20 over into like application with human
01:04:22 beings it becomes a lot more complicated
01:04:25 so generally speaking I think that a lot
01:04:27 of like technology restriction for
01:04:29 extended periods of time is probably
01:04:31 really good for you
01:04:33 um I think that there is uh probably a
01:04:37 lot of principles of like dopamine
01:04:39 tolerance and like we mentioned
01:04:41 anhedonian stuff I think the the data
01:04:43 behind that is pretty good so I think
01:04:45 the the biggest thing that restricting
01:04:46 yourself from technology does is
01:04:48 probably does help you reset that
01:04:52 um and you know mixed bag about whether
01:04:54 people go through withdrawal or not so
01:04:56 you know some of it could be like more
01:04:57 of a real Neuroscience or physiologic
01:04:59 withdrawal but some of it may just be
01:05:00 like I'm used to not being bored in my
01:05:04 for being bored is so low now because
01:05:08 that doesn't happen right we don't get
01:05:10 bored anymore everywhere we go we pack
01:05:13 you know I I remember seeing someone on
01:05:15 an airplane who was on an international
01:05:16 flight and they didn't bring anything
01:05:20 they just didn't break anything they
01:05:21 were there for eight hours and just
01:05:23 staring at the wall which by the way is
01:05:25 a great exercise that people in our
01:05:26 community do we tell them just stare at
01:05:28 a wall for an hour it's one of the most
01:05:30 powerful meditations that people in our
01:05:34 what are the outcomes that someone that
01:05:35 looks at a wall for an hour get
01:05:38 men it spans the whole range of things
01:05:41 some people will like break down and cry
01:05:43 some people will have catharsis for some
01:05:45 people it'll be complete torture with no
01:05:48 it's like a whole thing
01:05:51 right but it's just learn to be bored
01:05:53 you see what the running a marathon was
01:05:55 hard stare at this wall for an hour yeah
01:05:57 I mean at least you've trained your
01:05:59 muscles to run the marathon have you
01:06:00 trained your mind to be bored for an
01:06:02 and the beautiful thing about that is
01:06:04 once you can train your mind to tolerate
01:06:07 boredom you no longer fall into the pull
01:06:13 right because then you don't need to
01:06:14 play a video game because boredom's okay
01:06:17 what have you learned about porn use
01:06:20 amongst young men and how they feel
01:06:23 so I think porn use is one of the most
01:06:26 misunderstood things from this is my
01:06:29 opinion okay from uh clinical
01:06:32 perspective from a psychological
01:06:33 perspective from a neuroscience
01:06:37 you know we've done a lot of work with
01:06:40 pornography usage pornography addicts so
01:06:42 I think the first thing to understand a
01:06:43 lot of interesting stuff came out from
01:06:44 our internal research we're hopefully
01:06:47 going to publish a paper on this within
01:06:48 the next year or so but hasn't really
01:06:50 been formulated yet
01:06:52 so the first thing that's really
01:06:53 interesting is that people who are
01:06:54 addicted to pornography oftentimes get
01:06:57 exposed at a very very young age we're
01:07:00 talking about first exposure to
01:07:01 pornography like pre-pubescent most of
01:07:05 second thing is that pornography usage
01:07:07 has nothing to do with sexual perversion
01:07:10 so a lot of people think if someone is
01:07:13 really really addicted to pornography
01:07:14 they must be like really horny or like
01:07:16 depraved in some way or things like that
01:07:18 generally speaking my experience has
01:07:20 been that pornography usage is really
01:07:22 just a very powerful emotional coping
01:07:27 so pornography usage will suppress a lot
01:07:30 of negative emotions and if you talk to
01:07:32 people who use pornography especially in
01:07:34 an addictive way what leads to usage is
01:07:37 like feeling bad about yourself and this
01:07:40 is the big problem with pornography
01:07:41 usage which is that once you start to
01:07:43 use it it sort of engenders more shame
01:07:46 and guilt in order to deal with the
01:07:48 shame and guilt you have to use it again
01:07:50 right and and it's just the kind of
01:07:53 thing where if you like think about the
01:07:54 societal stigma if someone's like yeah
01:07:56 you know like I grew up and and I was
01:07:58 addicted to alcohol like and now I'm
01:08:00 sober for 20 years and it's like good
01:08:02 for you man and it's like yeah I'm a
01:08:04 recovering pornography addict and it's
01:08:08 you know you're not going to get the
01:08:09 same you know if you're dating someone
01:08:11 and you're let's say you have a brother
01:08:13 or sister like yeah I'm dating someone
01:08:14 who's like been sober for 10 years like
01:08:16 cool right like that's probably good
01:08:18 like not bad for you like I'm dating
01:08:19 someone who's like been addicted to
01:08:21 pornography for 10 years and they're
01:08:22 they're you know like
01:08:24 there's a lot of stigma associated with
01:08:26 a lot of Shame associated with it I
01:08:27 think it's really about emotional
01:08:30 this is really interesting there's
01:08:31 research that shows that
01:08:34 um so it really has nothing to do with
01:08:36 sex basically which is what's weird I
01:08:39 mean it can have sexual consequences and
01:08:40 stuff and create problems in
01:08:41 relationships but there's a research
01:08:43 that did a multivariate regression
01:08:45 analysis on people addicted to
01:08:47 pornography which means they looked at
01:08:49 which variable Associates the most with
01:08:53 pornography usage and the number one
01:08:55 variable was meaninglessness
01:08:58 so the more meaningless your life is the
01:09:01 more likely you are to be addicted to
01:09:04 and so what we've actually kind of found
01:09:06 which is really interesting is when you
01:09:07 work with people like that helping them
01:09:09 develop like purpose helps them actually
01:09:12 like you have to have a reason to stop
01:09:14 watching pornography it's got to be like
01:09:16 some kind of you know
01:09:18 you have to go through that withdrawal
01:09:20 for some greater good and so helping
01:09:22 people find purpose is like one of the
01:09:24 biggest things that apparently helps
01:09:25 with pornography
01:09:27 what do you think it says that porn use
01:09:30 doesn't seem to be
01:09:33 actually that massive of a sexual
01:09:36 trigger it doesn't seem to be triggered
01:09:38 all that much by it it's triggered by
01:09:41 things outside of
01:09:43 sex in a way it's triggered by life
01:09:46 circumstances meaninglessness yeah so so
01:09:49 I think it's this comes down to the
01:09:51 neurochemistry so if we think about
01:09:54 why do we get addicted to stuff because
01:09:56 of the effect it has on our brain
01:09:58 and so if we think about from an
01:10:00 evolutionary standpoint
01:10:02 there are a couple of different things
01:10:05 that will suppress our negative emotions
01:10:08 and will also give us like a rush of
01:10:10 like let's say euphoric
01:10:12 neurotransmitters so orgasm is one of
01:10:16 these things so why does orgasm feel
01:10:18 really good because it's required for
01:10:20 the procreation of the species right so
01:10:21 evolutionarily when orgasm feels really
01:10:24 good we're gonna have more sex and
01:10:27 that'll result in
01:10:28 the continuation of the human race the
01:10:31 interesting thing is if you look at
01:10:32 actually ancient yogic literature as
01:10:34 well they say that there's this you know
01:10:37 state of bliss called samadhi which is
01:10:39 sort of the purpose of meditation and
01:10:42 there are a couple of interesting ways
01:10:44 that you can get temporary samadhi and
01:10:45 orgasm is one of them so this also is
01:10:48 like one of the reasons that tantric sax
01:10:49 is a thing and and things like that
01:10:50 which is a maybe a conversation for a
01:10:52 different day maybe conversation for
01:10:54 today but I think we've known for a long
01:10:56 time so why is pornography like this
01:10:57 because orgasm has very specific
01:11:00 like activation within the brain and so
01:11:03 now if you kind of think about it let's
01:11:04 say I'm feeling worthless about myself
01:11:06 I'm not doing anything in life I'm kind
01:11:07 of like sitting around not doing
01:11:08 anything I'm tired of feeling this way
01:11:11 what is a switch I can flick in my brain
01:11:14 that lets me forget everything pushes my
01:11:16 negative emotions away and actually
01:11:18 gives me a spurt of
01:11:21 positive neurotransmitters which I'm not
01:11:23 sure exactly what happens when people
01:11:24 orgasm in the brain but you know and and
01:11:27 that's why pornography addiction exists
01:11:29 so it's not really about sex
01:11:32 that's so interesting that you have all
01:11:35 of these different coping mechanisms
01:11:36 whether it be binge eating whether it be
01:11:38 alcohol whether it be cannabis social
01:11:42 media video games porn what we what
01:11:47 increase the variety of ways that you
01:11:51 can hide from your feelings
01:11:53 absolutely and pick pick your flavor of
01:11:57 ice cream for today
01:11:59 what is it gonna be yeah right and and
01:12:01 there's there are people have drugs of
01:12:03 choice which may be due to some amount
01:12:04 of genetic vulnerability but if you
01:12:06 really think about it I think about
01:12:07 pornography addiction is the closest to
01:12:10 substance use because if it's hard
01:12:14 like a fact right so if you think about
01:12:16 getting high there's discrete like
01:12:18 chemicals that enter into your brain and
01:12:20 like activate certain receptors whereas
01:12:22 video games are like a little bit more
01:12:24 Global but pornography is really
01:12:25 especially that arousal stuff and stuff
01:12:27 like that is a very targeted way to
01:12:30 activate your brain in a particular way
01:12:31 more closely resembles the substance
01:12:34 Downstream from pornography use have you
01:12:36 seen sexual dysfunction is this
01:12:37 Associated absolutely so okay so how is
01:12:41 it that porn use isn't all that sexual
01:12:43 and yet Downstream from porn use you get
01:12:45 sexual dysfunction for a couple
01:12:47 different reasons so first let's
01:12:52 means multiple things within one person
01:12:54 so there's a physical aspect to it
01:12:56 there's a neuroscientific aspect to it
01:12:58 there's a psychological aspect to it so
01:13:01 one thing that you tend to see is
01:13:02 something that you know a term that I
01:13:06 coined on stream one day death grip
01:13:09 which is if you look at men especially
01:13:11 who masturbate when they use pornography
01:13:18 stimulus for lack of a better term
01:13:20 that men will use actually does not
01:13:26 physiologic stimulus of intercourse
01:13:28 so to put it bluntly I'm trying to avoid
01:13:31 saying this but you know not using lube
01:13:34 and using your death grip hand feels
01:13:36 different from a vagina like that's just
01:13:39 and and so what happens is the the body
01:13:41 can acclimatize to this right like
01:13:43 that's like literally what happens so
01:13:45 you get used to you need a particular
01:13:48 kind of sim you get conditioned to
01:13:50 require a certain kind of stimulation to
01:13:54 and so then sometimes what can happen
01:13:56 when when people engage in sexual
01:13:58 intercourse is that they can't get that
01:14:00 kind of stimulus to achieve climax
01:14:02 they've de-trained themselves from being
01:14:06 stimulated by real physiological
01:14:08 interaction with somebody else's body
01:14:10 yeah absolutely right so they also have
01:14:13 a very very strong grip right so so
01:14:15 mentally and so there's interesting
01:14:17 things because I've literally worked
01:14:18 with patients where like the process of
01:14:19 this is deconditioning so we'll sort of
01:14:21 say like you know loose grip a lot of
01:14:24 Loop and and that'll be frustrating for
01:14:26 I'm serious I'm not I'm you know I know
01:14:28 it's funny but like seriously because
01:14:30 you have to do that physiological
01:14:32 deconditioning and you have to try to
01:14:33 approximate you know things like that
01:14:36 and there's all kinds of stuff that you
01:14:37 could do with your partner and things
01:14:38 like that too so you can fix this
01:14:40 sometimes you'll see like erectile
01:14:42 dysfunction just kind of straight up
01:14:44 um and then they're also like
01:14:46 neuroscience and psychological impacts
01:14:47 right so sometimes people will have so
01:14:50 much shame for pornography that there's
01:14:52 you know they have difficulty performing
01:14:54 they feel so guilty uh there's all kinds
01:14:57 of stuff like does your partner know
01:14:58 that you use pornography and things like
01:15:00 that so that can lead to
01:15:02 um you know a difficulty with sort of
01:15:04 forming and maintaining erections which
01:15:05 is different from reaching orgasm right
01:15:07 so there's a whole physiologic chain of
01:15:11 and and so we'll we'll definitely see
01:15:13 that kind of stuff and then in some
01:15:15 cases what you also tend to see is that
01:15:17 there's this principle called online
01:15:19 drift on the internet where
01:15:22 since the goal is emotional engagement
01:15:24 how does a platform keep you emotionally
01:15:27 engaged they do it by serving up more
01:15:30 extreme content so if you look at your
01:15:32 platform algorithms if there's certain
01:15:33 things that you search for it'll serve
01:15:36 you like tons of extreme stuff in that
01:15:39 so if you watch one cute cat video
01:15:42 then you need to see cats doing cuter
01:15:44 things to stay on the platform and then
01:15:46 cats are doing cuter stuff and cuter
01:15:48 stuff and cuter stuff we see this with
01:15:50 pornography usage as well where there's
01:15:52 like a gradual like movement towards
01:15:55 like hardcore pornography use because
01:16:00 more stimulus to your eyes and ears and
01:16:04 things like that to get that same level
01:16:05 of arousal and if you do that and if you
01:16:08 require that really high level of
01:16:10 of of you know just like more brighter
01:16:13 bigger whatever and and then if you if
01:16:16 you have sexual relations with a regular
01:16:18 human being like the stimulus is just
01:16:21 if you're not able to recreate the zero
01:16:24 gravity acrobatics that you've just seen
01:16:27 on Pawn Yeah Mary Harrington calls that
01:16:28 the law of FAP entropy which is whatever
01:16:30 you start out wanking to will get
01:16:32 progressively more intense over time
01:16:33 beautiful yeah it's it's her second law
01:16:37 of porno Dynamics I think actually
01:16:40 um I I really like the introduction of
01:16:43 the framing in the story that you tell
01:16:45 yourself around your Pawn use is
01:16:48 contributing to what is going to happen
01:16:51 out the other side of it and I think
01:16:54 that again you know
01:16:55 um what would this be like if it was
01:16:58 um what would there is a trend online at
01:17:01 the moment that demonizes pawn use and
01:17:04 it's because there is a non-zero number
01:17:07 of people for whom porn use is
01:17:08 destructive and can't control it that
01:17:11 has been used to cover all of ponies as
01:17:16 if you're using porn this makes you
01:17:19 susceptible to a a whole Suite of
01:17:22 problems that are going to occur even if
01:17:23 you do have a healthy relationship with
01:17:25 it because there are a whole host of
01:17:27 people that are able to use pawn and
01:17:29 have a healthy relationship with it and
01:17:31 at least not have dysfunction on the
01:17:32 other side of it whether it's healthy or
01:17:33 not maybe a little bit of a different
01:17:36 but for the people who see their Pawn
01:17:40 use as something which is worthy of
01:17:42 Shame which is worthy of guilt which is
01:17:44 worthy of making them feel like less of
01:17:45 a man less of a appropriate partner
01:17:49 I can guarantee that you are somebody
01:17:51 who does have a problem with porn use
01:17:54 porn news is not good for you if that is
01:17:56 the story that you tell yourself about
01:17:57 your Pawn use and it's so recursive and
01:18:01 and self-reinforcing it's brutal
01:18:03 yeah absolutely I mean I think that you
01:18:06 know it's interesting because when when
01:18:07 people sort of demonize porn use I think
01:18:09 I'm seeing this trend more and more
01:18:13 if something if I have a problem with
01:18:15 something our society is moving more and
01:18:18 more towards that thing needs to go away
01:18:21 as opposed to I need to get better at
01:18:26 and so the really scary cycle that I see
01:18:29 is that the more that we remove things
01:18:32 the less tolerant we become
01:18:35 and then smaller and smaller things can
01:18:38 set us off concept yep and it's really
01:18:41 bizarre because it's literally the exact
01:18:43 opposite of what we do in exposure
01:18:45 therapy right so when someone has a
01:18:47 phobia like we literally have a clinical
01:18:49 Intervention which has been
01:18:51 scientifically sort of like the standard
01:18:52 of care for phobias is exposure therapy
01:18:55 which is hey this thing bothers you and
01:18:57 we're going to expose you to a tiny tiny
01:18:59 amount of it until we can decondition
01:19:01 that physiologic response and then we're
01:19:03 going to go up and then we're going to
01:19:04 go up and we're going to go up until you
01:19:06 can tolerate it but on the flip side
01:19:08 with and I think it's okay to cancel
01:19:10 some people I'm not like against cancer
01:19:12 culture but I think it's important to
01:19:13 understand what are the consequences of
01:19:15 cancel culture and how can we sort of
01:19:17 buffer against those we need to train
01:19:19 ourselves to be able to handle difficult
01:19:22 stuff a little bit better
01:19:25 I even saw a meta-analysis recently that
01:19:27 offering trigger warnings actually
01:19:28 increases anxiety and doesn't actually
01:19:31 help people in any sort of way yeah yeah
01:19:34 if you snowplow out of the way anything
01:19:37 that could be even mildly objectionable
01:19:39 to people what you do it
01:19:42 you don't change the fact that people
01:19:44 are going to find things offensive what
01:19:48 you do is you adjust the level at which
01:19:51 their offense begins people are going to
01:19:53 find and this is you know one of my
01:19:56 great friends Gwenda Bogle he speaks
01:19:57 about the fact that
01:19:59 um there is a community of people out
01:20:01 there for whom finding racism in the
01:20:03 world is their job it is their job to go
01:20:06 out there whether this be due to status
01:20:07 due to speaking gigs and engagements
01:20:11 their level of racism the amount of
01:20:13 racism that they find is going to stay
01:20:15 constant if racism decreases
01:20:18 that means that they need to find more
01:20:20 and more things to be racist in order to
01:20:23 maintain there is a supply and demand
01:20:24 problem with regards to racism and if
01:20:27 the supply of racism decreases or the
01:20:28 supply of anything decreases offense
01:20:31 objectionable content whatever it is
01:20:33 there are some people out there who are
01:20:35 just going to adjust themselves down the
01:20:37 whatever the price demand curve to find
01:20:40 more and more things that
01:20:42 yeah and I think you know if if you're
01:20:45 on a crusade let's say and I think
01:20:47 there's like a good reason to do that
01:20:49 right let's let's say that I'm against
01:20:53 I don't know like sexual assault and
01:20:55 even if I make sexual assault 50 better
01:20:58 my work isn't done right like and so I
01:21:01 think there are good reasons to do that
01:21:02 sort of thing but what what kind of
01:21:03 bothers me and this is when I like
01:21:05 literally when I work with patients and
01:21:06 stuff right who have narcissistic or
01:21:08 abusive parents or siblings or things
01:21:11 and and we sort of talk a little bit
01:21:12 about okay this person says these words
01:21:15 right but like really the goal when I
01:21:17 work with patients is how can you let
01:21:19 their words no longer control you that's
01:21:23 like the point of therapy when someone
01:21:25 has had an abusive parent right you get
01:21:27 to it it's not easy but over time you
01:21:30 can develop the resilience and fortitude
01:21:31 to kind of acknowledge that hey like
01:21:33 even though this person is upset with me
01:21:35 they're upset with me I don't have to
01:21:36 take that in or I can learn how to set a
01:21:39 boundary around it I can draw a line I
01:21:41 can understand even in the best cases
01:21:43 that my parent was abused which is why
01:21:45 they learned how to talk about this
01:21:46 stuff and I can have compassion towards
01:21:48 them that's like literally what we try
01:21:49 to do in therapy and then on a
01:21:51 macroscopic level we're almost moving in
01:21:53 the opposite direction
01:21:54 where we're sort of training ourselves
01:21:57 to be like mentally less tolerant and
01:22:00 I'm not saying that that's the solution
01:22:01 like I don't think we should I think we
01:22:03 should be mentally more tolerant but if
01:22:04 people are doing bad things we should
01:22:06 absolutely hold them accountable so
01:22:08 someone is out there spewing racist BS
01:22:10 there should be consequences for that
01:22:13 and at the same time I can enact those
01:22:15 consequences without being mentally
01:22:19 Disturbed which is a big part of what
01:22:20 being a psychiatrist is if someone
01:22:22 assaults me I can enact a consequence
01:22:25 about them and still go home I'm talking
01:22:27 about in the scheme of work right so if
01:22:29 you're working in the emergency room
01:22:30 someone's high on cocaine and they like
01:22:32 lash out at you like sometimes you
01:22:34 psychiatric professionals get assaulted
01:22:38 and so we can still hold them
01:22:40 and change the system things like that
01:22:43 but we don't have to be as upset about
01:22:45 it and there's actually training
01:22:48 that's a perfect conception going back
01:22:50 to one of the first things that you said
01:22:51 one of the best predictors for
01:22:53 pathological porn use is the age at
01:22:56 which you first become exposed to it
01:22:59 why how does porn use impact a
01:23:02 developing brain what is it about this
01:23:04 which direction is the arrow of
01:23:06 causation going in yeah so so a couple
01:23:08 of caveats about that so that's like a
01:23:10 observation we've made of people in our
01:23:12 community I don't know if there's
01:23:13 actually research on that but I wouldn't
01:23:15 be surprised if there was yeah that's
01:23:16 true of all the other addictions okay so
01:23:19 we sort of know why and so we know that
01:23:21 when you have a developing brain adding
01:23:23 a substance to it makes us more
01:23:25 vulnerable to it long term so there's
01:23:28 even studies that show that early
01:23:33 leads is more likely to lead to
01:23:36 addictions of other kinds and it's
01:23:38 because when you use marijuana at a
01:23:40 young age it actually Alters how your
01:23:43 dopamine circuitry is formed
01:23:45 and leaves you vulnerable to other
01:23:47 addictions so my guess is that
01:23:50 pornography has some similar
01:23:51 neuroscientific mechanism where
01:23:53 something is going on where even if
01:23:56 you're because these people are
01:23:57 prepubescent usually when they're
01:23:58 exposed which means that they don't get
01:24:02 like usually right so so and they don't
01:24:05 even understand what they're seeing
01:24:06 which is the most common thing when I
01:24:08 talk to people who are addicted to
01:24:09 pornography most common thing is I was
01:24:12 and my 15 year old brother like showed
01:24:14 me this thing and him and his friends
01:24:16 were watching it and it was super cool I
01:24:18 didn't understand what was going on
01:24:20 but we do know that adding stuff to the
01:24:22 developing brain whether it's a
01:24:24 particular kind of stimulus let's say
01:24:26 like abuse of parents right so that's
01:24:27 not a substance or a substance Alters
01:24:32 and that those effects are
01:24:34 let's say not quite permanent but sticky
01:24:37 and then requires some time to be
01:24:39 rewired and so probably it has something
01:24:42 to do with the way that our dopamine
01:24:43 circuitry our emotional circuitry
01:24:45 those things kind of get laid down with
01:24:48 that perfectly shows why porn use is at
01:24:53 least in part not sexual
01:24:55 because you have you have this coping
01:24:58 mechanism for an individual who is as
01:25:03 and and that I think is the the weirdest
01:25:05 thing for pornography addiction is that
01:25:07 like a lot of it honestly in my clinical
01:25:09 experience is like not very sexual in
01:25:11 nature it's really about some weird
01:25:12 emotional suppression you know mentally
01:25:15 checking out getting that Spurt of
01:25:18 um and and that's also why you'll you'll
01:25:20 see so much usage it's not like people
01:25:22 are they feel compulsions as opposed to
01:25:25 feeling horny yeah which is not aroused
01:25:27 for eight hours straight right it's not
01:25:29 like you know we're gonna
01:25:31 jerk off all day and it's gonna be great
01:25:33 it's like I feel terrible about myself I
01:25:36 don't know what to do I feel a
01:25:37 compulsion to watch the stuff do this
01:25:40 thing for a while if I get into a fight
01:25:42 I need to do it again I'm
01:25:44 procrastinating I've wasted the whole
01:25:46 day I feel ashamed of myself because
01:25:47 I've done this for the last four hours I
01:25:49 need to do it again that's honestly more
01:25:52 I think that taking it out of the realm
01:25:55 of sex which you know the world still
01:25:57 has massive problems talking about
01:25:59 openly it's something that's kind of
01:26:01 very shameful and guilt-ridden and
01:26:04 private and all the rest of it taking it
01:26:06 out of that and just saying black man
01:26:07 for you it's fapping for the girl that
01:26:11 lives next door it's binge eating the
01:26:14 guy that lives down the street it's
01:26:16 video games for the dude that lives next
01:26:18 door to you it's marijuana
01:26:20 coping mechanisms all the way down yeah
01:26:23 I think that takes away a lot of the
01:26:25 shame which is pretty cool one of the
01:26:27 um considerations that I imagine must
01:26:29 happen an awful lot is around bedtime
01:26:32 routines sleep sleep hygiene generally
01:26:36 from your community if you're talking
01:26:37 about people that use screens an awful
01:26:39 lot people that use social media porn
01:26:44 that we get so motivated in the middle
01:26:46 of the night instead of first thing in
01:26:48 the morning why did nature decide that
01:26:50 he was going to curse us so that our
01:26:52 brains can't shut off when we're about
01:26:53 to go to sleep and yet when we want to
01:26:55 wake up first thing in the morning our
01:26:56 brains don't want to start
01:26:58 so I think there are a lot of different
01:27:02 um I think a big part of it is that
01:27:04 so a big part of what we do if we look
01:27:06 at the staring at a wall exercise for
01:27:09 so a lot of that real solid positive
01:27:12 motivation comes from within
01:27:14 and if we really look at our society
01:27:16 what's going on right now is we are
01:27:18 being told what we want all the time so
01:27:22 we've lost touch with ourselves right so
01:27:24 like there's a notification oh this game
01:27:26 is coming out there's this new movie
01:27:28 coming out there's a Super Mario movie
01:27:30 there's this movie there's that movie
01:27:32 there's this kind of thing and by the
01:27:33 way there's this kind of thing that you
01:27:34 can do to be healthy you should be
01:27:36 healthy you need to be healthy you need
01:27:38 to be more motivated this is how you
01:27:40 grind this is how you be productive be
01:27:43 all of these things
01:27:44 and so what's happening in our society
01:27:46 is we are gravitating
01:27:48 towards stuff outside of us all the time
01:27:50 and the people are getting better and
01:27:52 better at getting us get getting us
01:27:54 gravitated towards them right so Oreo is
01:27:57 figuring out okay what color can we put
01:27:59 the package you know how can we make it
01:28:01 crinkly like so that you know there's
01:28:03 some kind of pavlovian condition like
01:28:05 everyone's getting better at this
01:28:07 and so oftentimes if you kind of think
01:28:08 about it at night a couple of things
01:28:11 happen the night is the only time you're
01:28:13 right and maybe you're and and I
01:28:15 guarantee you the people who are getting
01:28:17 motivated are not sitting there Doom
01:28:18 scrolling on their phone until they pass
01:28:20 out they're usually like sitting down
01:28:22 quietly or something like that like what
01:28:24 happens is you doom scroll you doom
01:28:25 scroll you do scroll you get tired you
01:28:27 put the phone away you put your head on
01:28:28 the pillow you don't fall asleep and
01:28:30 then you start having all these ideas
01:28:32 so it's really the only time that in the
01:28:35 shower right because we haven't we don't
01:28:38 we don't have waterproof phones
01:28:41 so that's why like all these profound
01:28:43 thoughts happen in the shower it's not
01:28:45 like the shower is magical and has some
01:28:47 neurochemical that you're inhaling that
01:28:49 makes you more creative it's the only
01:28:50 time that you have with yourself
01:28:52 and there are studies that show that
01:28:53 meditation improves creativity and
01:28:55 things like that why is that it's
01:28:56 because you're with yourself
01:28:58 so that's one reason
01:29:00 there are a couple of other reasons
01:29:01 though I think that some people have a
01:29:03 different circadian rhythm and their
01:29:05 creative time is really late at night if
01:29:07 you look at basically religions across
01:29:09 the world they sort of have this
01:29:11 convergent evolution of mental work it
01:29:14 three to six in the morning so depending
01:29:16 on how late you stay up you may actually
01:29:18 be tapping into that what's in Sanskrit
01:29:21 called Brahma murta is also the time of
01:29:23 like matins so there's like this window
01:29:25 of time that based on circadian rhythm
01:29:27 where your mind is actually very very
01:29:28 active and that's how I ended up
01:29:30 studying two hours in med school I just
01:29:32 studied during Brahma work I was like
01:29:33 Hey and everything just sinks in
01:29:35 it's like getting up we're getting up
01:29:37 early or staying at play so we're
01:29:39 getting up early
01:29:40 so I'd wake up at like 4 a.m I'd do like
01:29:42 yoga and meditation I'd study for two
01:29:44 hours and I'd go to class and then I'd
01:29:45 Finish class and I'm done for the day
01:29:49 um so so I I think that you know you
01:29:51 have to be a little bit careful about
01:29:52 your circadian rhythm that just could be
01:29:54 your time but a lot of it is just that's
01:29:57 the time that you're with yourself
01:29:59 and so gotta just spend more time with
01:30:02 yourself like you're a cool person
01:30:04 you don't need something else to
01:30:06 what about if people are constantly
01:30:08 dealing with brain fog this is something
01:30:11 that a bunch of people that I've worked
01:30:14 with over the years have complained
01:30:15 about that throughout the day their
01:30:17 thoughts always feel a little bit
01:30:20 get the sense that this will probably
01:30:23 correlate with people who are also
01:30:25 sleeping quite poorly they're also
01:30:26 probably using phones late at night but
01:30:28 what is brain fog have you ever looked
01:30:30 at this clinically oh yeah a ton so so
01:30:32 uh uh we had a YouTube video about this
01:30:36 went really well so I I think the the
01:30:38 tricky thing about brain fog is
01:30:41 as a clinician like we see it Frontline
01:30:44 and people don't really know what to do
01:30:46 so this is where so it's interesting I'm
01:30:48 I'm I mean I guess at this point I'm an
01:30:50 expert in in technology usage but my
01:30:54 historic expertise is an evidence-based
01:30:57 complementary and alternative medicine
01:30:58 and and so what we're really seeing when
01:31:01 in brain fog first of all I think we've
01:31:02 got to understand that your brain exists
01:31:06 so and we're seeing this more with like
01:31:08 gut microbiome research and things like
01:31:09 that but for the longest time at least
01:31:11 in eastern medicine
01:31:12 they didn't separate out mental health
01:31:14 from other forms of things like it's all
01:31:17 one thing right because the brain is
01:31:18 connected to the body so I think what we
01:31:21 we're also seeing a lot of brain fog is
01:31:23 a symptom of long covid so that further
01:31:28 demonstrates the kind of like
01:31:30 immune autoimmune inflammation based
01:31:35 results of brain fog so I think that
01:31:38 brain fog in my opinion is really
01:31:40 probably some kind of low level
01:31:42 inflammation that is going on so usually
01:31:45 when I'm trying to help people with
01:31:46 brain fog it's kind of weird but it's
01:31:48 not much psychological stuff like I
01:31:50 don't think it's like problems with your
01:31:51 emotions or Psychotherapy it's usually
01:31:53 more physiologic stuff so
01:31:55 anti-inflammatory diet even when it
01:31:57 comes to stuff like sleep I think a lot
01:31:59 of people don't realize that you know
01:32:01 especially if you use like marijuana or
01:32:03 like Edibles or CBD to help you sleep it
01:32:05 affects your REM Cycles it affects your
01:32:08 you know sleep stage architecture and
01:32:10 things like that
01:32:11 so a lot of times people will use things
01:32:14 but don't really recognize or
01:32:17 acknowledge that the quality of sleep
01:32:18 that they're getting is pretty low
01:32:20 I have a kind of a personal Theory which
01:32:22 I've implemented with a couple of
01:32:24 patients which you know none of this is
01:32:25 medical advice but uh you know I've
01:32:28 tried using and when you talk to
01:32:30 patients you have to consent them
01:32:31 appropriately and stuff right so I'll
01:32:33 teach them which is a headstand which
01:32:36 seems to help with everything else
01:32:38 so even in potentially increasing blood
01:32:40 flow to the brain could help but but I
01:32:43 think really sort of focusing on
01:32:44 anti-inflammatory measures turmeric
01:32:46 things like that can can really help
01:32:48 people with brain fog do you know what's
01:32:50 happening with brain fog what what is it
01:32:53 like what what's going on inside of the
01:32:55 brain so my guess is that there's just
01:32:58 low levels of inflammation and or and
01:33:02 that sort of correlates with immune
01:33:04 activation within the brain and it could
01:33:06 be coming from other places too and the
01:33:09 felt sense of that is slower thoughts
01:33:12 yeah infusion less Clarity less
01:33:14 Precision Etc right so if you look at it
01:33:16 the first thing that we sort of know if
01:33:18 we review our you know neuroanatomy and
01:33:20 stroke architecture is that we know that
01:33:22 certain psychological and physiologic
01:33:26 problems are focal so that's one part of
01:33:29 the brain but with brain fog everything
01:33:31 is messed up a small to medium to even
01:33:34 severe amount so it's a global effect so
01:33:37 what kind of if we're talking about
01:33:39 global effects the sources are probably
01:33:42 going to be stuff like inflammation or
01:33:44 hormones or things like that stuff that
01:33:46 affects all of your brain and so I think
01:33:49 a lot of that stuff also with the covid
01:33:50 it sort of suggests that there's some
01:33:52 ongoing immune reaction or even
01:33:56 hopefully not damaged which I don't
01:33:57 think we really see with covid in the
01:33:58 brain you can you can get strokes and
01:34:01 that's more clotting stuff but you know
01:34:03 so I I think it's probably low level of
01:34:05 inflammation is my best guess
01:34:08 one of my friends has just started
01:34:10 working with a new
01:34:12 glucose monitor company and when you get
01:34:15 your always on glucose monitor and you
01:34:17 put it on the back of your arm
01:34:18 it comes with uh I think four muffins so
01:34:22 you get it delivered you get glucose
01:34:24 monitor and with your glucose monitor
01:34:25 are four huge super sugary high calorie
01:34:28 muffins and on one of the days that you
01:34:31 don't have anything to do in the morning
01:34:32 you have to wake up and immediately upon
01:34:34 waking you eat two of these muffins and
01:34:37 you track what's happening are you
01:34:40 watching your your glucose shoot up
01:34:42 through the ceiling but you're not
01:34:43 allowed to train you're not allowed to
01:34:45 eat anything else you can't exercise you
01:34:47 can't do stuff to to try and get that
01:34:49 off and the lesson to learn apparently
01:34:52 from this apart from the fact it's how
01:34:53 does your body respond to glucose how
01:34:55 quickly is it able to clear it whilst
01:34:56 it's not training whilst it doesn't have
01:34:58 other things etc etc is also the felt
01:35:00 sense of this is what tons of sugar in
01:35:03 your bloodstream feels like and then for
01:35:06 lunch you have another muffin so you've
01:35:09 had two for breakfast and then you have
01:35:10 another one for lunch and um again it's
01:35:12 just one of the most interesting things
01:35:14 Beyond this is how my body is able to
01:35:17 metabolize glucose and get it out of the
01:35:19 bloodstream and all this stuff that he
01:35:20 learned one of the other things was he
01:35:22 had a number that he was able to now
01:35:25 attach to his felt sense of what high
01:35:29 blood sugar felt like and everybody
01:35:31 knows if you've had a huge binge one
01:35:33 evening you end up having a ton of
01:35:34 cookies or something else and I can
01:35:37 sometimes feel it in my joints I can
01:35:39 sometimes feel it it's like throbbing my
01:35:41 entire body is throbbing because I'm
01:35:43 just so [ __ ] inflamed and I wouldn't
01:35:45 say that I'm hypersensitive to this but
01:35:48 you know everyone can push it if you get
01:35:50 a bag of Haribo tank fastics in front of
01:35:52 you or something and you go I've just
01:35:53 eaten 100 grams of sugar there that's an
01:35:56 awful lot yeah I think something that
01:35:58 people don't really
01:36:00 appreciate is that we have symbiotic
01:36:05 and the bacteria that grow in our gut so
01:36:08 a lot of people will like eat will take
01:36:10 probiotics every day whereas like I
01:36:14 science without understanding so if we
01:36:16 think about okay what determines the
01:36:18 bacteria in your gut it's what you feed
01:36:21 so some bacteria are able to digest
01:36:23 complex carbohydrates some bacteria are
01:36:25 able to digest simple carbohydrates the
01:36:28 ones that we've sort of learned are
01:36:30 friendly which trigger less of an immune
01:36:33 response or the bacteria that have been
01:36:34 in our guts for thousands tens of
01:36:36 thousands millions of years and those
01:36:38 are the ones that eat like root
01:36:39 vegetables they help us digest those
01:36:41 things and now what started to happen is
01:36:43 we see all this how does food cause
01:36:45 inflammation like we know that fast food
01:36:46 causes inflammation sugar causes
01:36:48 inflammation it's because when we when
01:36:50 we eat these kinds of foods it selects
01:36:52 for we're fertilizing another kind of
01:36:55 bacteria that normally doesn't belong
01:36:57 there because like Twinkie eating
01:36:59 bacteria did not were not symbiotic so
01:37:02 now our immune system is like hey this
01:37:03 guy this bacteria doesn't belong here
01:37:05 but those are the ones that we keep
01:37:07 and so a lot of this inflammation that
01:37:09 we're kind of seeing I've seen a lot of
01:37:10 stuff around gluten recently where
01:37:12 there's a guy in Austin actually who
01:37:14 uses the strain of gluten that's like
01:37:15 800 years old doesn't trigger Celiac
01:37:18 problems for people and things like that
01:37:22 and that's cool it's really interesting
01:37:24 right so there's no scientific studies
01:37:26 on it yet but I think we're really
01:37:28 starting to see that a lot of this stuff
01:37:29 like diet and things like that which is
01:37:31 usually how we manage brain fog I myself
01:37:33 had really bad brain fog after covid and
01:37:35 went through this whole ayurvedic
01:37:37 regimen and was back to normal
01:37:39 and so it was it was you know I think
01:37:42 that we really inflammation oriented
01:37:44 you've mentioned a good bit today about
01:37:46 good microbiome and the relationship
01:37:48 between mood body General Health and
01:37:51 what's going on not just in terms of
01:37:52 eating diet but microbiome too
01:37:56 let's say that somebody hasn't ever been
01:37:58 introduced to the concept of microbiome
01:38:01 and how the food that they eat interacts
01:38:04 where would you start somebody who says
01:38:07 I think that I might be suffering with
01:38:09 some brain fog I think that my energy
01:38:11 levels should be a little bit improved
01:38:12 what would you eliminate first what
01:38:14 would you try and add in first this is
01:38:16 not medical advice
01:38:17 yeah so I think the first thing to
01:38:19 understand is that if you're
01:38:21 so there are meta-analyzes that have
01:38:24 been done on diet
01:38:26 and basically what we know is that all
01:38:28 of the healthy diets
01:38:30 share a couple of things high amount of
01:38:33 fiber high amount of fruit like fresh
01:38:35 fruits and vegetables a certain amount
01:38:37 of protein and then ideally healthy
01:38:41 now for any individual person some
01:38:44 combination of that may be like better
01:38:46 for you so like low carb intermittent
01:38:48 fasting like whatever but if you look at
01:38:50 meta-analyzes that compare all these
01:38:52 things that different people are doing
01:38:54 that's kind of what it comes down to so
01:38:56 the first thing to understand about gut
01:38:58 microbiome if you've got brain fog or
01:39:02 in order for your brain to function it
01:39:07 the nutrients that you get are
01:39:10 not just about what you eat but about
01:39:13 how you digest and how you metabolize
01:39:16 so there are two bacteria for example if
01:39:18 you look at people who have mood
01:39:20 disorders there are two bacteria that
01:39:23 are low in people who have mood
01:39:26 disorders if you look at people who do
01:39:28 not have mood disorders there are two
01:39:30 bacteria that are high
01:39:32 so what do we know so if I'm I'm a
01:39:36 medical doctor and if a patient comes to
01:39:37 my office with depression I can
01:39:40 prescribe an SSRI a selective serotonin
01:39:43 reuptake inhibitor boost the level of
01:39:45 serotonin in their brain in their
01:39:48 now the cool thing is that where does
01:39:50 our body's serotonin come from it's made
01:39:53 from tryptophan which is created by a
01:39:56 gut bacteria when we eat particular
01:39:58 kinds of food so there's some gut
01:40:00 bacteria that give us tryptophan
01:40:02 serotonin precursors
01:40:04 and what I've found as a clinician is
01:40:06 that when people follow the right diet
01:40:08 recommendations I can pull them off of
01:40:10 their SSRI within a year
01:40:12 but when they don't follow the diet
01:40:14 recommendations they need to stay on the
01:40:16 SSRI this has just been clinical
01:40:18 so you really have to understand that if
01:40:21 you want your brain and body to function
01:40:22 correctly you need to feed at the right
01:40:25 kind of nutrients and it's not just the
01:40:27 nutrients themselves it's the fact that
01:40:30 half of your nutrient processing comes
01:40:33 from the bacteria in the gut and so it's
01:40:36 almost like you're creating a garden
01:40:37 that is going to give your body
01:40:41 even this I cannot make this stuff up
01:40:43 there's a kind of bacteria called
01:40:47 which is associated with anxiety I think
01:40:49 it's inversely correlated so people have
01:40:51 low levels of rheuminococcus have higher
01:40:53 levels of anxiety
01:40:55 and they've even done stool transplants
01:40:58 which is like when you take poop from
01:41:00 one human being and you put it in
01:41:02 another human being
01:41:04 and it will improve mood disorders I
01:41:07 have a friend who lives here in Austin
01:41:09 who is a stool donor for that precise
01:41:13 reason so he had to go through three
01:41:21 rigorous testing lifestyle questionnaire
01:41:24 phone interview tons of insights around
01:41:27 tracking food and stool sampling and
01:41:33 selling his poop he is now a poop
01:41:36 Creator your friend shits gold literally
01:41:39 did we mentioned this when we saw him
01:41:40 it's like dude yeah you've managed to
01:41:42 monetize the one thing that everybody
01:41:44 could make a business out of
01:41:46 yeah some high quality poop you got
01:41:48 there I've said it as well yeah it's
01:41:50 like do you do any for free can I get a
01:41:52 mate's right discount
01:41:54 um yeah it's fascinating okay so that's
01:41:56 that's what's going on inside of us uh
01:41:58 foods that people should be more aware
01:42:01 of foods that you've found in your
01:42:03 clinical practice that uh people tend to
01:42:06 be deficient in okay so this is where we
01:42:09 got to take a step back and understand
01:42:10 digestion so before I went to med school
01:42:13 I studied Eastern medicine for a few
01:42:14 years and a couple of things that I took
01:42:16 away from there which I believe and I
01:42:18 think we're moving towards is there's
01:42:19 not a food that is good for a condition
01:42:23 the people's digestion is different
01:42:25 people's absorption is different and so
01:42:27 certain foods work for certain people so
01:42:30 even when I'm working with patients with
01:42:31 depression if I'm trying to get them off
01:42:35 I will give them different diets
01:42:36 depending on what their like
01:42:38 Constitution is and like what their gut
01:42:39 microbiome is doing so I think that this
01:42:42 is where unfortunately like I wish I
01:42:43 could say eat these three things because
01:42:45 that's what people do now now they're
01:42:47 like okay what are the three things that
01:42:48 I need to eat but if I got to be
01:42:49 straight with you
01:42:51 that is the problem with
01:42:53 population-based medicine so when people
01:42:55 come and they say you should eat these
01:42:57 three things what do they do they look
01:42:58 at 10 000 people and they say okay on
01:43:01 average these three foods help ten
01:43:04 thousand people but if you really look
01:43:05 at that those three foods don't help a
01:43:08 third does it matter variance in there
01:43:10 yeah they don't help they help a little
01:43:13 bit in the middle and there's a third of
01:43:14 people that they help a lot with
01:43:16 so if you look at population based
01:43:18 medicine if we did if we sort of said
01:43:19 okay what should you wear we're going to
01:43:21 average together what everyone wears so
01:43:24 everyone the right thing to wear is like
01:43:28 right that's not how it works so I think
01:43:30 one of the biggest things the things
01:43:31 that we really need to understand about
01:43:33 recommendations is that recommendations
01:43:34 really should be personalized and that
01:43:36 different people may need to eat
01:43:38 different things so if you've got an
01:43:40 anxiety disorder like you need more
01:43:42 ruminococcus or less I'm forgetting if
01:43:44 it's directly correlated or inversely
01:43:46 correlated and there are certain foods
01:43:47 that ruminococcus can be found in
01:43:50 but at the end of the day like
01:43:51 everyone's looking for like a oh just
01:43:53 eat these three things whereas I'd say
01:43:55 unfortunately it's like and this is why
01:43:57 we sort of find the meta-analysis shows
01:43:59 healthy fruits and vegetables complex
01:44:01 carbohydrates and like you know low
01:44:03 processed foods is the most important
01:44:06 okay someone does that
01:44:09 does that mean in your view then that it
01:44:12 is important for people to cycle through
01:44:14 a bunch of different food different
01:44:17 foods different diets based on those
01:44:19 principles so we have some things that
01:44:21 are likely to be unchanging there will
01:44:24 be different flavors and versions and
01:44:25 whatnot on top of that absolutely so so
01:44:28 I think that just eating healthy doesn't
01:44:30 work ideally for like half the
01:44:33 so that's where you really need to learn
01:44:35 and make you know I think this is a
01:44:36 topic of a whole other conversation but
01:44:38 if you look at sort of the ayurvedic
01:44:40 system of diagnosis the Chinese system
01:44:41 of diagnosis what they do is they'll
01:44:43 diagnose you as having like a particular
01:44:45 kind of Constitution and there are
01:44:47 certain foods that will balance out that
01:44:50 and and that's stuff that you know when
01:44:52 I was struggling with brain fog I went
01:44:54 to the ayurvedic doctor that I see and I
01:44:55 was like hey I'm having this problem
01:44:56 it's a lot of what are you are you are
01:44:58 you a fire person
01:45:00 uh I am predominantly Wind and
01:45:03 secondarily Fire
01:45:07 so I like to say that my mind is like
01:45:09 the wind so I blow really hard in One
01:45:11 Direction and then I change directions
01:45:13 very easily so I struggle with
01:45:15 consistency even if you all are like
01:45:17 watching this so I use my hands a lot
01:45:19 when I move the veins on the back of my
01:45:21 hands are very visible
01:45:23 if you guys like kind of see that
01:45:26 um and so there are other features like
01:45:28 there's physiologic features and and
01:45:30 things like that that are kind of
01:45:31 correlated with this stuff one of my
01:45:33 friends wives is one of my friends my
01:45:36 friend's wife not one of my friend's
01:45:37 wives uh is a ayurvedic
01:45:42 teacher slash doctor and it was the
01:45:44 first time six months ago it was the
01:45:46 first time that I ever heard about the
01:45:47 classification for people in that way I
01:45:50 found it absolutely fascinating
01:45:52 yeah it's a little bit unfortunate that
01:45:54 I think the data behind ayurved is is
01:45:56 not the best so there were some initial
01:45:59 studies that show that it tightly
01:46:01 correlates with genetic like alleles and
01:46:03 things like that but some of that
01:46:04 research is you know I think they want
01:46:08 um but but the the scientific validity
01:46:09 is not the best clinically you know I
01:46:11 use it myself and I think you all should
01:46:13 talk to your doctor about it if you want
01:46:16 one of the other I guess common themes
01:46:19 that we've spoken about today is purpose
01:46:22 you mentioned earlier on that it is a
01:46:24 prophylactic against uh certain
01:46:27 dysfunctions that people can encounter
01:46:29 why is finding purpose so difficult in
01:46:32 the modern world in your opinion
01:46:34 so I think it comes back to something
01:46:36 that we talked about like so purpose
01:46:37 really does come from within so people
01:46:40 can give you responsibilities but then
01:46:43 those become shoulds
01:46:45 and the beautiful thing about purpose is
01:46:47 that that's what makes
01:46:49 doing hard things easy
01:46:52 so everyone's out there trying to make
01:46:53 everything easier but
01:46:57 if we can easily do the hard thing then
01:46:59 life becomes very easy
01:47:01 so if you kind of think about okay like
01:47:03 I I worked 20 you know I'm I'm up for 18
01:47:06 hours of a shift I have six more hours
01:47:08 to go I want to go to sleep I don't want
01:47:10 to be here why do I keep doing it I do
01:47:14 it because I care about my patients I do
01:47:17 it because if I work a 24-hour shift I
01:47:19 get to see my kids more
01:47:21 so there's a three-year-old at home that
01:47:23 like unless I work these 24 hours like
01:47:25 we're not gonna make you know either I
01:47:27 work anyway so as a parent you make
01:47:30 sacrifices for a good reason so purpose
01:47:33 is what allows us to make sacrifices
01:47:36 and we're becoming a world that it's
01:47:38 becoming harder and harder to make
01:47:40 sacrifices in fact we want the opposite
01:47:42 we don't even want to sacrifice and
01:47:43 tolerate five minutes of boredom boredom
01:47:45 while we're taking a poop
01:47:47 you know I need that constant
01:47:49 dopaminergic stimulation and so the more
01:47:51 the less purpose we have in life and if
01:47:53 we think about you know people who are
01:47:54 fighting today in in Ukraine or like
01:47:56 people who like people who do difficult
01:47:58 things have a reason for it
01:48:01 and so now what's happening in society
01:48:03 is like people can't do hard stuff
01:48:04 because like why do you wake up in the
01:48:06 morning there's like an existential
01:48:08 nihilism like anti-work and wealth
01:48:11 inequality and climate change like
01:48:13 what's the point
01:48:15 and so you can take as many supplements
01:48:17 as you want to to boost your motivation
01:48:19 but if you don't have a reason to get up
01:48:20 in the morning like
01:48:22 this is something I learned as an
01:48:23 addiction psychiatrist you can't give
01:48:25 someone a reason to quit they have to
01:48:27 want to quit themselves you can't make
01:48:28 someone sober they have to want to do it
01:48:31 and so what makes purpose hard I think
01:48:33 it's because Society externalizes our
01:48:40 our attention is like halfway within us
01:48:43 and halfway directed towards the
01:48:44 external but now with notifications with
01:48:47 dopamine with with you know colors and
01:48:50 everything being bright and stuff we
01:48:52 don't we don't know what it is to be
01:48:54 ourselves we don't even know what we
01:48:55 want all we know about quote unquote
01:48:58 what we want is what we've been told to
01:49:02 and I'll see this a lot because I'll
01:49:03 advise people who want to go to med
01:49:04 school and I'll ask them why do you want
01:49:06 to go to med school and they give me
01:49:08 some BS answer about helping people and
01:49:09 they're like I want to help people and
01:49:11 it's like why don't you go work in a
01:49:12 soup kitchen you have to go to school
01:49:14 for four years for that and help people
01:49:18 uh and then it's like why do you want to
01:49:19 go to med school like I don't know you
01:49:22 want to do it for the prestige and the
01:49:23 money and to make your parents proud
01:49:25 let's be honest and they're like yeah
01:49:29 and then you can work from there right
01:49:31 okay so like that's not going to work
01:49:32 dude you're going to burn out
01:49:35 so I think why it's hard to find purpose
01:49:36 is literally this is more from a yogic
01:49:38 perspective but our attention is no
01:49:40 longer directed internally so what we
01:49:42 end up with is a life of shoulds
01:49:45 and where does it should come from a
01:49:47 should comes from the outside it comes
01:49:49 from the expectation of other people
01:49:51 and then our purpose actually comes from
01:49:53 within and so the more that we spend the
01:49:56 more our attention gets pulled into
01:49:57 things outside of us the more we lose
01:50:00 sight of like what we want
01:50:02 crowdsourcing your sense of self-worth
01:50:04 to the world around you is a Surefire
01:50:06 way to be miserable yeah absolutely and
01:50:11 okay but we are inevitably intertwined
01:50:15 with the world around us we are going to
01:50:18 be exposed to screens and expectations
01:50:21 and societal norms and social media and
01:50:24 what our parents wanted us to do and the
01:50:26 way that we've dealt with past traumas
01:50:27 and our fears of insufficiency and the
01:50:29 fact that Sigma grindside gets lots of
01:50:30 hashtag love on tick tock
01:50:36 to Silo ourselves or to separate
01:50:39 ourselves out so that we can actually
01:50:41 find our desires find our wants
01:50:44 so there's a there's a interesting
01:50:46 exercise that I'll give people if you're
01:50:48 trying to find your purpose in life you
01:50:50 need to reach the end of thought
01:50:53 so if we look at where thoughts come
01:50:55 so thoughts come from two places the
01:50:58 indrias which are the sense organs in
01:51:01 the memory of indrias or India
01:51:03 experiences so if you kind of think
01:51:05 about okay like if I want a hamburger
01:51:06 what causes me to want a hamburger I'm
01:51:08 walking down the street I smell a
01:51:10 hamburger cooking then I start to think
01:51:11 about hamburgers
01:51:13 so thoughts usually come from the
01:51:16 so I want to see this movie I want to
01:51:18 play this video game I want to watch the
01:51:19 show a thousand years ago did people
01:51:21 want to play that video game of course
01:51:23 not they never had a single thought
01:51:25 about it why do we think about it
01:51:26 because we get bombarded from our
01:51:28 sensory organs advertisers figured this
01:51:30 out too the yogis figured it out
01:51:32 advertisers figured it out brand
01:51:35 so if you want to find your purpose
01:51:38 but the thing is that stuff will
01:51:40 continue bombarding you as long as you
01:51:42 keep on inputting it into your senses
01:51:45 so this is where a simple exercise is to
01:51:47 reach the end of thought so if you go
01:51:50 your mind will have lots of thoughts
01:51:52 you'll think about your calendar you'll
01:51:53 think about this I want to do this but
01:51:55 then as long as you don't feed your mind
01:51:57 it'll run out of those thoughts then
01:51:59 you'll have this period of boredom and
01:52:02 boredom by the way is your mind's way of
01:52:04 trying to trick you into getting
01:52:06 dopamine it's like we're starving here
01:52:09 give us something and so it bludgeons
01:52:12 you and Bullies you into giving it more
01:52:14 dopamine we see this with like binge
01:52:17 eating and stuff too it's going to make
01:52:18 you feel terrible because your brain has
01:52:20 figured out if I make this person feel
01:52:22 terrible they'll eat something
01:52:25 so you just have to reach the end of
01:52:26 thought and you just keep walking until
01:52:28 the thoughts run out
01:52:30 and then sit down hopefully on a park
01:52:32 bench and then just ask yourself what do
01:52:36 ask yourself and then if all the
01:52:38 thoughts are gone you'll start to get
01:52:40 something floating from the surface and
01:52:43 the more that you do this kind of
01:52:44 exercise and meditation is a shortcut to
01:52:46 kind of do this by the way
01:52:48 I think the more you'll you'll discover
01:52:49 your purpose because you can't get it as
01:52:51 you said from crowdsourcing especially
01:52:53 internet and Google ads and cookies and
01:52:56 stuff like that because
01:52:57 it's not even crowdsourcing with your
01:52:59 best interests at heart
01:53:02 trying to separate ourselves out from
01:53:05 just how intertwined we are with
01:53:07 everybody else how intertwined everybody
01:53:09 else is with us uh is an incredibly
01:53:12 difficult feat and
01:53:14 one of my favorite blog posts of all
01:53:16 time is what do you want to want by
01:53:18 kailash and Rhoda and it's precisely
01:53:20 about this question that you're asking
01:53:24 he he has this bit where he says
01:53:27 if we don't step into our wants and
01:53:30 learn to program our desires then the
01:53:33 best that we can hope for is to become a
01:53:35 rich or famous slave
01:53:37 the cleverest rat in the room basically
01:53:39 allowing the entire world to tell us
01:53:41 what it is that we're supposed to want
01:53:43 asking yourself what do you want to want
01:53:47 is such an unbelievably powerful
01:53:50 question not what do you want because
01:53:51 what you want is informed by all of
01:53:52 those things societal Norms past traumas
01:53:54 parental expectations blah blah
01:53:57 what do you want what do you want want
01:53:59 in life when I work with people like and
01:54:02 once again like when we work with like a
01:54:03 lot of these high performing people
01:54:04 right they have a lot of wants but I'll
01:54:07 ask them where did that want come from
01:54:11 and or why do you want that and I think
01:54:13 you know when you start to really ask
01:54:15 that question that's when you really
01:54:16 discover oh I actually don't want this
01:54:19 like why do you want that I want this to
01:54:22 make my parents happy I want this to be
01:54:24 respected I want this because I don't
01:54:25 feel good about the person that I am on
01:54:29 so if I accomplish this thing it'll be
01:54:32 like an antidote to my low self-esteem
01:54:36 or my desire to prove yourself
01:54:40 prove yourself what does it approve
01:54:42 you're you you're always going to be you
01:54:44 you've always been you there's nothing
01:54:48 dude I love your work I I absolutely
01:54:51 adore this blend of modern Western
01:54:54 ancient Eastern I think you're an
01:54:57 incredibly impressive individual I think
01:54:58 that the work that you're doing is is
01:55:00 very much needed I wish that there was
01:55:01 10 of you out there or 100 perhaps but
01:55:03 for now we're just gonna have to do with
01:55:05 one I think uh Chris likewise I'm amazed
01:55:09 by your encyclopedic knowledge of just
01:55:11 all these different things and and being
01:55:13 able to pull from all kinds of stuff and
01:55:15 I I don't think we need 10 of us I think
01:55:17 one of us is enough
01:55:18 and I think what we probably need is
01:55:20 nine other people who have what they
01:55:22 bring to the table
01:55:24 right you have what you bring to the
01:55:25 table I I have what I bring to the table
01:55:27 we don't need more of me like not all
01:55:29 we're gonna get maybe maybe if we maybe
01:55:31 if we double to subscribe in them but
01:55:33 maybe that would be good maybe but I
01:55:35 think that there's probably nine other
01:55:37 people who are listening to this podcast
01:55:38 at some point who are going to be the
01:55:40 people that come after I agree we're
01:55:42 going to be grown up in your community
01:55:44 and maybe they go pursue a PhD or
01:55:47 something like that
01:55:48 and and I I appreciate the positive
01:55:51 sentiment I'm I really appreciate the
01:55:53 feedback you've nailed it you really
01:55:54 really nailed it I very very much
01:55:56 appreciate the intersection of
01:55:57 everything that you do if someone that's
01:55:58 listening has been blown away by what
01:56:00 they've learned today where should they
01:56:01 go to keep up to date with the stuff
01:56:03 that you do to find out more to take
01:56:04 some of your courses yeah so um
01:56:08 www.healthygamer.gg is like our you know
01:56:10 core website but I think a lot of people
01:56:11 usually watch our YouTube content so
01:56:14 healthygamer GG is our primary YouTube
01:56:16 channel we also have a Discord server
01:56:18 where we help people practice
01:56:20 you know skills that have socially
01:56:22 atrophied in the digital age like we on
01:56:25 Valentine's Day we had this um we had
01:56:27 300 people practicing how to ask each
01:56:30 and and as as you mentioned before Chris
01:56:33 we were just talking about this I forgot
01:56:35 exactly what you said but I thought it
01:56:36 was brilliant if you want to just yeah
01:56:37 the the opportunity if we have uh VR in
01:56:41 future to be able to create a Sandbox
01:56:43 game I suppose that correctly programs
01:56:47 in somebody else's preferences a guy or
01:56:49 a girl's preferences and allows you to
01:56:51 be able to practice chatting up an AI
01:56:54 bot that would be able to understand
01:56:57 flirting and banter and humor and maybe
01:57:01 even body language and that went too far
01:57:04 and you know this would be great for all
01:57:06 sides as well because
01:57:07 you would be able to hopefully train men
01:57:11 to be safer with women not only safer
01:57:14 but more charismatic and more humorous
01:57:16 there is there is no apart from if
01:57:20 anybody has to ever review the game tape
01:57:22 of all of these poor people failing
01:57:24 forward with their terrible punch like
01:57:26 uh chat up lines there is no loser there
01:57:28 is no loser unless you believe that the
01:57:30 ai's got Consciousness in which case
01:57:31 maybe maybe the AI does a little bit but
01:57:33 even then yeah the greater good
01:57:36 absolutely and I I think that's kind of
01:57:37 what we're sort of devoted to not
01:57:39 necessarily AI but what we really try to
01:57:41 do is help the digital generation
01:57:43 understand their mind better and how to
01:57:46 how can we equip you to understand this
01:57:49 thing called your mind and sometimes
01:57:51 that involves helping your body and
01:57:52 things like that
01:57:53 but to really face the challenges that
01:57:55 like people face in a digital world
01:57:58 what's happening people thank you very
01:58:00 much for tuning in if you
01:58:02 would then press here for a selection of
01:58:04 the best clips from the podcast over the
01:58:06 last few weeks and don't forget to