00:00we as a society are running a scam and
00:03ripping off a huge percentage of our
00:06young people who are going to college
00:08with the clear expectation that they're
00:10going to get a higher quality job and
00:12being able to pay for college but that's
00:14absolutely not the case and if we don't
00:16address that it doesn't he could forgive
00:18this batch but what about the next batch
00:20and the next batch and the next batch
00:22and the next batch it's still not worth
00:24the money and I think that's the great
00:27thing that has to be reckoned
00:33hey folks uh welcome back uh to the mark
00:35and Ben show um today we are going to uh
00:38tackle one of the hot topics of the
00:39moment um which is the topic of uh the
00:41university system uh University and
00:46University very hot topic it's been in
00:48the news a lot lately um couple things
00:50we wanted to say up front so first of
00:52all I think in general we're going to
00:53have a very kind of American perspective
00:54so when we talk about you know the
00:56universities and colleges we're most
00:57familiar with are American so you know
00:59asum we kind of have a maybe a little
01:01bit of a parochial view just in terms of
01:02what country we're talking about um but
01:04look the the the the most important
01:06thing is kind of why we want to talk
01:07about this um and you know I guess what
01:10I would say is like look like
01:12universities um and I would say
01:13especially the really good ones um they
01:16matter tremendously um and they matter
01:18tremendously to the world um and to the
01:21country um and to everybody in the
01:23country um and they matter a lot to us
01:25and I just want to say up front like
01:26they matter a lot to me you know I'm I'm
01:28where I am because I I got a mod
01:29University of education at the
01:30University of Illinois they M they
01:32matter a lot I know to Ben uh who can
01:34talk about his own experiences um and so
01:36so they really matter you know they're
01:38they're they're obviously in in some
01:39state of of sort of Crisis right now um
01:42uh I think our opportunity is to talk
01:45about them not so much in terms of like
01:47the topics that are like super hot in
01:48the news so we're not necessarily going
01:50to weigh in on the same stuff that
01:51you've been reading about uh if you've
01:53been following the you know the last
01:54couple months of of drama but you know
01:56we're going to do kind of what we do
01:57which is we're we're going to we're
01:58going to talk about it structurally so
01:59we're we're going to think about sort of
02:01universities as an industry um and as a
02:03business and as a form of organization
02:06um and as something that has customers
02:08um and has constituents and and has a
02:10structure and has an industrial logic um
02:13and incentives right so you know
02:14thinking about this a little bit more
02:16structurally more from a business
02:17standpoint um and then the other thing
02:19is um uh there there's two specific
02:21reasons we want to get into this today
02:23so one is um both Ben and I have a lot
02:25of friends um and uh colleagues all
02:28across the country that are trying to
02:30basically make universities better and
02:32and some of these are people who are on
02:33boards uh or are running um uh you know
02:37University presidents or endowment heads
02:39um or other people alumni um you know
02:42professors uh you know people who have
02:44been kind of scrubbing and hard uh to
02:46try to make universities better and so
02:48we we hope maybe sharing some of our
02:49perspective might help them um and then
02:51the other is since we are Venture
02:52capitalists you know there there is
02:54always the possibility you know that
02:55higher education is an industry and
02:57there's always the possibility of
02:58startups um and so one of the you know
03:00interesting questions always is when an
03:02industry is going through you know kind
03:03of structural Transitions and when when
03:05when when sort of a lot of things are
03:06flying um there's always this question
03:08of like well should there be new should
03:09there be new competitors um in the
03:11industry or or actually should the
03:13structure of the industry itself change
03:15uh and maybe you know things that have
03:16been bundled in the past should be
03:17unbundled and so forth and so we'll
03:19we'll we'll get into that a little bit
03:20as well and there there may be
03:21entrepreneurs listening to this who may
03:22may have ideas coming out of it um so
03:24Ben let me let me let you let you also
03:27add introdu I'll just add you know was a
03:30uh trustee at Columbia University um I'm
03:33a trustee emirus now I think they call
03:36me um so I have a huge interest in in
03:40kind of helping uh the system improve
03:43and kind of get over its current issues
03:46um the other thing I'd say about you
03:48know American universities in particular
03:50is they are you know to a large extent
03:52the Envy of the world and that you know
03:54when I travel the world um you know many
03:57countries you know the the government
03:59officials and the the the highest
04:01ranking people in the country send their
04:03children to American universities to
04:05study you know even if they're going to
04:06come back and um kind of you know
04:09literally run the country at a future
04:11date uh so you know it's really been an
04:14amazing system and produced an awful lot
04:17of good so you know we're going to do a
04:18lot of uh dissecting deconstructing
04:21criticizing of it but it's in that
04:25context yeah and and yeah and I think a
04:27great case study of that Ben is I think
04:29she J Ping's daughter goes to Harvard I
04:32believe which is one incredible case
04:34study and then of course particularly
04:36when we talk about the top universities
04:38right um which are you know of course
04:39the ones that draw most of the press
04:40coverage but you know they they they
04:42they they have what economists call an
04:43externality which is you know their
04:45graduates end up running a lot of the
04:46country yeah right um and so like you
04:49know basically like almost every Supreme
04:51Court Justice you know either you know
04:52went to one of a very small number of of
04:54super Elite you know law schools usually
04:56Harvard to Yale um you know cea if you
04:59look at the C The Fortune 500 if you
05:01look at you know top politicians
05:02presidents I think Harvard alone is
05:04responsible for eight presidents um and
05:07then there's this we'll talk about this
05:08later in the in the in the session but
05:10there's this policy setting function
05:11that they play where you know the ex the
05:13expertise at the universities in the
05:14form of the professors and the research
05:16um is used to set a lot of public policy
05:18um and so the the the decisions made at
05:21these places basically basic basically
05:24end up determining a lot of the future
05:25of the country for sure it is I mean
05:27they are they are Elite universities
05:30elites yes that's right and the elites
05:32end up running a lot of things so yeah
05:35so anyway so so that's why we want
05:37another reason we want to talk about
05:38this is the the the implications of sort
05:40of what's either going right or wrong at
05:41the top universities matters not just
05:43for the universities and for the people
05:44who go to those universities or teach at
05:46those universities but also you know the
05:48the citizenry as a whole um you know is
05:49sort of very exposed For Better or For
05:51Worse to the to the implications of what
05:53happens to these places so certainly a
05:55topic that I think everybody should be
05:56uh you know should should should at
05:58least you know think about somewhat so
05:59structure for what we're going to do
06:00today is so um I've made my list of the
06:02uh uh the dirty dozen or 12-step program
06:06u i I made a list of the Dozen um uh
06:09sort of key functions uh that that I
06:12think are kind of most Central to what
06:13modern universities are and I and let me
06:15start by saying um you know basically
06:17like where did the modern University
06:19come from is actually quite an
06:21interesting story in and of itself um
06:24you know the very short form of it is
06:25that the original universities well the
06:27original universities started in like
06:28you know England like 800 900 years ago
06:31um uh uh the American universities
06:34actually started 400 years ago American
06:35universities are actually in some cases
06:37older than the country um and so Harvard
06:39in particular is sort of the the leading
06:41case study on this is uh and I think
06:42Harvard's the I think the oldest current
06:44one uh Harvard is I think 400 years old
06:48um and um and then and basically what
06:50happened is the the these institutions
06:52have been evolving for for hundreds of
06:53years um and so what they basically are
06:55today is they're sort of a bundle um of
06:58function and you know products and
07:01services um and um you know Staffing um
07:05and economics that sort of been you know
07:07evolved over the course of literally
07:08hundreds of years right and so and I'll
07:10just give you a sense of The
07:11evolutionary steps quickly you know just
07:13take Harvard as a case study Harvard
07:15started as a as a religious institution
07:17started out basically training uh
07:19religious training for uh you know for
07:20basically for Protestant Puritan um uh
07:22religious leaders in the US and that was
07:24the knowledge at the time right the
07:26Bible was the best source of knowledge
07:30yeah if you read if you read the yeah if
07:31you read the original charter of Harvard
07:33this is all you know right there on the
07:34Wikipedia page it basically was
07:36chartered as actually an actual
07:38religious instruction uh right religious
07:40institution uh religious training U you
07:42know they kind of went it went hand
07:43inand with sort of the the sort of
07:45creation of the you know at the time
07:46what what became known later as sort of
07:48the WASP sort of anglo-american
07:49aristocracy you know that sort of
07:51colonized uh New England and ran you
07:52know basically and basically ran ran the
07:54country um you know and basically
07:56conducted the Revolutionary War
07:57ultimately um and you know that was very
07:59kind of heavily Protestant Puritan um uh
08:02and and and Harvard was sort of a key
08:03note in the propagation of those values
08:05and of that culture and of that religion
08:08um so it ran that way for a long time um
08:10you know it then broaden it it and its
08:11peers then broadened out and they they
08:13basically through the course of the last
08:14150 years or so they they basically
08:17threaded in um two uh foreign models uh
08:20elements of two overseas models so one
08:22was the sort of classical education
08:24model from the English universities and
08:26so particularly Oxford and Cambridge
08:28right and so the idea basically teaching
08:30you know sort of a classic classical you
08:31know um you know politics history
08:34economics um you know basically the the
08:36you know uh uh philosophy literature you
08:39know kind of the the the key topics that
08:41you know in England for a long time have
08:42been viewed is sort of the way that you
08:43train leaders like basically every every
08:45leader in England you know every prime
08:47minister basically essentially came
08:48through this particular program they
08:49have I think at Oxford called PPE uh
08:52which I think it's like it's like
08:53politics philosophy and forget what uh
08:55economics I think are the three um uh
08:58and so you know the the sort of
09:00classical education role of these places
09:01kind of came from the English model and
09:03then more recently you know starting
09:05about 100 I don't know 120 years ago the
09:07the influence started showing up much
09:08more also of the German model um and the
09:11German model was for technical education
09:13right um and so the German model was for
09:15basically training scientists and
09:17Engineers um and so um you know most
09:20most most elite universities in the US
09:21now at large universities you know they
09:23sort of famously have both sort of
09:25liberal arts component to what they do
09:26but they also have a what we now call
09:28stem um you know science technology uh
09:30education or uh engineering mathematics
09:34um and so the the the modern American
09:36University is sort of a hybrid of it's
09:37sort of a hybrid of a religious
09:38institution a classical education
09:40institution uh or Humanities education
09:43institution and then a technical
09:44education institution um and at least
09:46like the place I you know I went to
09:48University of Illinois and like it was
09:49actually very interesting as there were
09:50actually two physical sides to the
09:51campus there was the liberal art side
09:53and then there was a street that divided
09:55and then there was uh the Engineering
09:57campus the other side now Illinois where
09:59the stem buildings uh kind of much less
10:02nice than the liberal arts building
10:04because that was the case at
10:05Columbia I so at so so at Illinois the
10:08engineering buildings were much nicer oh
10:10they were nicer okay interesting so it
10:12depends who gave the money yeah yeah so
10:14this was and this was actually a big
10:16deal at least at Illinois this is a very
10:18big deal because I can tell you the
10:19liberal arts people were very mad about
10:20this uh liberal arts people the liberal
10:22arts buildings were just collapsing they
10:25were ancient and collapsing and there
10:26had been this building frenzy at the at
10:28the at the engineering department over
10:30the preceding 10 years before I got
10:31there and there were all these just
10:32incredible shiny spectacular buildings
10:34and people I remember people people on
10:36the other side of the street were like
10:37super mad about this oh that's really
10:39funny because you know when I was out of
10:40Columbia and Columbia has built a
10:41gorgeous new campus now so it's it's a
10:43little different but um the old
10:45buildings were gorgeous you know they
10:48were from when however Alexander
10:50Hamilton days uh and the new building
10:54was just like the ugliest thing you
10:56could ever see and that was the
10:57engineering building yeah maybe that
10:59tells you that maybe that's a different
11:01difference between the l Grant uh you
11:03know fundamentally Technical University
11:05yeah the sort of T tacked on liberal
11:06arts versus a liberal arts legendary
11:08institution maybe at some point tacked
11:10on tacked on technology right
11:12exactly yeah that's right and so yeah so
11:15these are good examples of kind of this
11:16hybrid this this hybrid that's emerged
11:18and and then of course you know we'll
11:19we'll talk about this some but you know
11:20since the 1960s in particular you know
11:22the universities have kind of Taken on a
11:23sort of a you know you might call sort
11:25of a more potent set of like you know
11:26kind of social political ideological
11:29uh you know which we we we'll talk about
11:30as we get into so there's a modern take
11:32on this too but but anyway the point of
11:33this is as a result of how these uh
11:36institutions evolved is they're bundles
11:38right and so if you look at it as an
11:39industry they're they're bundles they do
11:40a lot of different things um and the
11:43bundle evolved so the good news is the
11:45bundle evolved and in general in
11:46business that's kind of a good way to
11:47kind of figure out what you should do is
11:49to like let Evolution work on your side
11:50and figure out what works and what
11:51doesn't and add to the things that work
11:52and subtract the things that don't but
11:54you know the other thing that happens is
11:55you know sometimes you just like inherit
11:57the bundle um and sometimes as a leader
11:59you want to kind of relook at the bundle
12:01and whether this actually is the bundle
12:02that makes sense or whether things
12:03should be split out or whether things
12:05should be added uh to the bundle and so
12:07we're going to kind of talk about it in
12:08terms of the current bundle and then
12:10we'll talk about the potential
12:11unbundling yeah and I would say like you
12:12know one of the very interesting things
12:14with regard to the bundle um you know
12:17and and you can think of the bundle as
12:18like the Cable Bundle you know where you
12:20get your ESPN and HBO and all the things
12:23in one um is that the the bundle was of
12:27course created pre- internet
12:29and uh you know when you and I went to
12:31school that was significant because
12:34there was this thing where you could
12:37knowledge like the best books the best
12:40information was all you had to go to
12:42school to get it in fact if you wanted
12:44access to the internet when we went to
12:46school you had to go to university it
12:48was the only place that had the internet
12:50um yeah and so we're in a really
12:52different world than we were even you
12:54know 35 years ago uh which is you know
13:00and and so that puts tremendous pressure
13:02on the bundle yeah that's right yeah a
13:05great example is Illinois you had a
13:06famously huge library and I remember it
13:08was actually in the marketing material
13:09for both uh recruiting students and
13:10professors was the quality of the
13:12library because if you went there you
13:13could do certain kinds of research that
13:15were not possible if you didn't have
13:16access to the library yeah yeah which is
13:19very different world but like the Cable
13:21Bundle right like you could only get HBO
13:23if you had cable so that made the bundle
13:25very different than if you can get the
13:26HBO app like those are not the same
13:30worlds uh and I think the university is
13:32in that same situation but people don't
13:35point it out as much yeah that's right
13:38so let's dive into the bundle and I've
13:40identified my dozen um you know kind of
13:41things in the bundle and then Ben you
13:43can you know we can we can add things as
13:44we go there are actually many things we
13:46could easily think we just thought of
13:47one the library I didn't even have in my
13:49list um but um you know there there are
13:51many I'm sure there are many many more
13:53kind of you know elements of the bundle
13:54that I haven't even prioritized here but
13:56you know these are kind of the Dozen
13:57that are top mind for me so and actually
13:59Ben let me just run you through I'll
14:00just give you the headlines on these
14:01real quick so people can have a road map
14:03to what we're about to talk about yeah
14:04and then I'll just come back to the
14:05first one and we'll dive in so number
14:07one credentialing agency um so
14:10credentialing students graduates for
14:12employers uh number two the actual
14:15courses themselves the education um uh
14:19uh number three uh I call the research
14:21Bureau right which is the research
14:23component that most modern universities
14:25have right most universities are ALS
14:26they're also a hybrid of teaching and
14:29huge Charter is to create new knowledge
14:32um and often how the kind of technical
14:34part of the University distinguishes
14:36itself from industry um you know they
14:40they kind of refer to Industry as
14:41applying knowledge that was created at
14:43the University although not always true
14:45but it's a it's the Paradigm they love
14:48yeah that's right and and profess you
14:50know Prof we'll talk about this but
14:51professors become professors get hired
14:53and get tenure in large part of the
14:55basis of their research um uh in
14:56contrast to their to to their teaching
14:59um it's not uncommon to have you
15:01professors it will not surprise anybody
15:02who's been in a college environment that
15:03you have professors who maybe are better
15:05at research than teaching um yeah as the
15:08student sometimes you wonder who who got
15:10the good part of the deal um fourth what
15:14I call the policy Think Tank um and so
15:16this is the role of the universities in
15:17sort of setting public policy which
15:19we'll talk about um number five is what
15:21I call the moral instructor um and this
15:23is the sort of legacy of the fact that
15:25these institutions actually started the
15:27original one started as religious
15:28institutions um and so kind of and and
15:30you know today in most mission
15:31statements in most universities they
15:33might not outright say that they're
15:34teaching religion or morality but you
15:36know they'll say things like that
15:37they're trying to inculcate values right
15:39or they're trying to you know basically
15:40Foster citizenry they'll use terms like
15:42that and that's basically all code for
15:44instruction uh number six is what I call
15:46the Social reformer role and this is the
15:48role where they not just they they not
15:50only instruct morality but they also try
15:51to implement it themselves directly um
15:54uh and you know this is where this very
15:55hot topic of of Dei in particular comes
15:57in that we'll we'll spend a little bit a
15:58little bit of time on um number seven
16:01what I call the immigration agency um
16:03and so this is the key role actually
16:04played by Foreign students uh which is
16:07actually really critical and not not
16:08talked about enough because it turns out
16:10that uh foreign students at universities
16:12generally pay full Freight um and so
16:15it's a it's a big deal International
16:16recruiting of students now is a very big
16:18deal and very core to the economic
16:20structures of these things and there's
16:21another aspect that we'll get into when
16:23we talk about credentialing which is
16:26they pay full Freight and they don't
16:27always go to the ual University they've
16:30the universities have set up these
16:31parallel universities
16:33um with different criteria which is very
16:37interesting yeah that's right and and
16:39this actually turns out to be very
16:39important in the economics of these
16:41places because it's not clear that these
16:42places work without these kind of you
16:44know kind of let's just say Associated
16:45programs we'll talk about uh number
16:47eight Sports League um and I'm not the
16:49sports guy but Ben very much is and so
16:51Ben will weigh in very heavily on that
16:53and there's been a lot of controversy
16:54around college sports in recent years uh
16:57number nine the hedge fund which is to
16:58say say the endowments um which have
17:00become a very big deal over the last you
17:01know 30 years in particular uh number 10
17:04what I refer to and I I went to college
17:05so this was me uh as I refer to as adult
17:08daycare uh or young adult daycare and so
17:10this is sort of you know where you send
17:12the 18 to 24 year old um as sort of a a
17:15substitution for just like going out and
17:17getting a job yeah to get them out of
17:18the house exactly um and then uh number
17:2111 is I call the dating site right which
17:23is the role that the universities have
17:25played actually both in being a place
17:27where people actually date and and and
17:29choose mates but also they also get the
17:32credential uh for future choosing of
17:34matate we'll talk about that because
17:35that turns out to actually matter quite
17:36a bit um and then we'll close on what I
17:39call the lobbying firm which is
17:40basically the role the government plays
17:41in all this and in particular the role
17:43that uh Government funding plays and all
17:44this and then what that means for the
17:45relationship of of the of the government
17:47and the universities and of course
17:48that's a very hot topic you know there's
17:50a very there's a there's a there's a
17:52current you know very active
17:53Congressional investigation going on
17:54into the universities right now uh over
17:57all this recent drama and so there
17:58there's always this kind of question in
18:00the back of everybody's heads in in in
18:02Academia I think which is like okay you
18:04know we we we really do we in Academia
18:06really do run on federal funding and
18:08what you know what would what would ever
18:09happen if that ever got compromised or
18:10cut off yep yeah no and it is a freak
18:13out whenever it pops up it popped up a
18:15little during the Trump Administration
18:17um and I cannot I was a trustee at the
18:20time and like it was a
18:24fairly scary situation why don't you
18:27describe what because that that gives
18:29you gives people a sense of the stakes
18:30of what we're talking about yeah so well
18:32you know Trump was talking about um a
18:36variety of things you know one was an
18:38endowment tax um and then there were
18:41kind of other things to kind of change
18:43the way the the research research uh
18:47Grant process worked uh and and the
18:49amount of money that got allocated to
18:51various schools and that just has huge
18:53effects on the economics I mean it's
18:57uh you you know universities rarely you
19:00also have to understand almost never do
19:03layoffs um so they only get
19:05bigger uh and so a kind
19:09of what what you would kind of regard as
19:14run-of-the-mill business downturn is
19:16like something that they're not really
19:18equipped to handle at a university I
19:20would just put it that way yeah okay
19:21well we'll come back to that um so let's
19:23start with the credentialing agency um
19:25and so this this is a very interesting
19:27topic and actually a lot of I know on
19:28this I learned from there's an economist
19:30named Brian Kaplan who's written a book
19:31called like the book is he's a he's a
19:3310ar university professor at George
19:35Mason University he spent his life in
19:37Academia so he's not exactly a bomb
19:38thrower um but he gave his book a very
19:40provocative title called the case
19:42against education um but it's a very
19:45kind of comprehensive walk through the
19:46economics of Education how the system
19:47works um and uh I was very struck by I
19:51just sort of relay the argument that he
19:53basically makes in the book or at least
19:54what I what I how I interpreted it which
19:56really stuck with me which is you know
19:58the sort of default view of sort of the
20:01value of a college degree is the
20:03learning right so you go to four years
20:05or whatever and you get the learning
20:06that you get and that gives you the
20:08learning sort of translates to
20:09employable skills and then you get a job
20:11and employers you know recruit kind of
20:12on that basis evaluate on that basis um
20:14it actually turns out it's actually very
20:16hard to validate empirically the value
20:17of the learning um and the the the the
20:20reason for that the the evidence for
20:22that is there's something called the
20:23sheep skin effect uh that economies talk
20:25about economists talk about and the way
20:27the sheep skin sheep skin here refers to
20:28the diploma um the the actual right the
20:31actual actual you graduated you actually
20:33got the diploma um and the observation
20:36is that um if you go to college X and
20:38program y um and you you go for eight
20:42sem you know you go for four years you
20:43go for eight semesters say two semesters
20:45per per year um and you graduate you
20:47make you know whatever say you make you
20:49know $100,000 a year or whatever coming
20:51out the other side as an average salary
20:53um it turns out if you compare those
20:56graduates to students who go for seven
20:58of the eight semesters uh it turns out
21:00like on average it's something like
21:01they'll get something like half the
21:02salary yeah um so for those graduates
21:04they kind of zero in at like if the if
21:06the if the full if the full if the full
21:07graduate amount is is 100,000 they
21:09they'll come in at like 50,000 or
21:10something like that it varies by field
21:12but it kind of It kind of roughly
21:13correlates to that um and so what what
21:16the argument I think Brian Kaplan has
21:17made is if you if you basically if you
21:19look at that if you stare at that there
21:20are two possible explanations for it uh
21:23right um because what you'd expect is if
21:25the if if it this is just all about the
21:26education the the the GR who the person
21:29who didn't graduate but took seven of
21:30the eight semesters should get seven e
21:31seven e of the income yeah right instead
21:34they get half the income and so there's
21:35two possible explanations either a full
21:37half of the actual valuable information
21:39is delivered in that last semester yeah
21:41right the senioritis
21:44semester yes and anybody who's been
21:46through college knows that's not true
21:47because that's the semester everybody
21:48slacks off um and so if anything the
21:51opposite is true um uh or the Sheep
21:54Canin effect which is the actual value
21:56is more in the diploma
21:58um it's it's more in the fact that you
22:00actually graduated right um and so the
22:03the way that I think the economist view
22:05on this basically is um the the the main
22:07credential of a of a University degree
22:10um is basically in two parts um it's in
22:12the fact that you were admitted um and
22:14then it's in the fact that you were that
22:16you graduated um by the way on the
22:18admissions thing you can see that same
22:19thing in Silicon Valley where there's
22:21this credential in Silicon Valley that's
22:22become very popular which is I was
22:23admitted to you know MIT but I didn't go
22:26yeah right or I was aded and I went for
22:28a year and dropped out and it turns out
22:30like there's no penalty like you know
22:32for for for for VCS like us like
22:34actually the fact you got admitted MIT
22:36is itself or credential yeah even if you
22:38never went right even if you never
22:39actually completed the thing so so it
22:41links back to the sheep skin effect
22:42anyway so so basically like the the the
22:45sort of objective clinical view of the
22:47value of the credential basically is
22:48that the education plays some part but
22:50there's these two other really critical
22:51things there's the admiss the fact you
22:53got admitted and then there's the fact
22:54that you graduated in psychological ter
22:56psychological testing terms so they call
22:58psychometrics what that basically means
23:00is that the admissions process is
23:02basically an IQ test come back to that
23:04in a second and then the graduation
23:06actually getting to the diploma is a
23:08conscientiousness test yeah right and so
23:10and the reason we can be confident in
23:11saying that admissions is an IQ test is
23:13that traditionally admissions was based
23:14on standardized testing which is like
23:17tests like sat act GRE and those tests
23:21from a from a from a from a just a
23:23clinical standpoint like in sort of
23:24Clinical Psychology um psychometrics um
23:27those tests all proxies for an IQ test
23:29those those are all sort of those are
23:30all sort of roughly equivalent to just a
23:31straight IQ test highly correlated
23:33results yeah highly correlated to an IQ
23:35test you know point eight or more you
23:37know kind of correlation to an IQ test
23:39and so basically historically the fact
23:41that somebody got you know whatever 1400
23:44or 1500 on the uh sat and that
23:46correlated to an IQ of 130 or something
23:48and then therefore they were qualified
23:49to go to you know a certain a certain
23:51tier of University like like that was a
23:53that as long as that standardized
23:55testing component in there and those
23:56tests are real like that that's a real
23:58of like basic intelligence and then the
24:00fact that they completed the fouryear
24:01degree is a real signal of
24:03conscientiousness and I think there's a
24:05really kind of fundamental thing that's
24:06breaking right now that's not getting
24:08enough attention that employers are
24:10starting to really think about but I I
24:11think a lot of people who run
24:12universities are not thinking about
24:13enough yet which is we're thinking about
24:16it we're thinking about it yes both yes
24:19we're thinking about this both for
24:21ourselves uh and then also for all of
24:23our companies who hire um which is I
24:25think a lot so a lot of universities
24:26number one um they are voluntarily
24:29ending the use of standardized testing
24:30for admissions um and there's a whole
24:32political social kind of overlay as to
24:34why that's happening but at a lot of
24:36even the top institutions now they very
24:37deliberately are not doing admissions
24:39based on any sort of standardized
24:40testing which means they're not applying
24:41the IQ test uh which means which mean by
24:44the way maybe that's the right thing for
24:45them to do but what it means is they're
24:46giving up on that as part of the
24:48credential like that that that that the
24:49IQ component of the credential is is
24:51being voluntarily surrendered and then
24:53the other thing that's happening and
24:54this is very clear in the data is just
24:55great inflation um and so you know the
24:58trend over the last 50 years has been
25:00increasingly that just everybody gets
25:01A's and everything um and of course if
25:04you just get A's and everything of
25:05course it's a lot easier to graduate um
25:07right you're much much less likely to
25:08drop out or get forced out and so I
25:10think what's happening is colleges
25:11universities in the US right now are
25:13voluntarily surrendering both the uh
25:15admissions IQ component of the
25:16credential and the graduation grading uh
25:19component uh of the credential um and I
25:22and I think the implication of that in
25:24terms of what that credential means in
25:26terms of future employment is I think
25:28very uh underestimated yeah so Ben over
25:31to you yeah and what do you think drives
25:33the great inflation the most I've been
25:36thinking about that quite a
25:38bit do you have a view on that from what
25:40you saw at Columbia yeah I mean I think
25:42that you know a lot of it has to do with
25:44incentives right so if you're an
25:46instructor um you get you know the the
25:49big new thing is they have these student
25:51evaluations of teachers and they get
25:53published in these books and then um you
25:55know you get if students don't like like
25:57you you you're regarded as a crap
26:00Professor or whatever and the easiest
26:03way to get a high student evaluation is
26:06A and so like and the amount of stress
26:13and you know just that you have
26:16to deal with if you give somebody a d uh
26:19because they're going to come to you and
26:20complain and harass you and so forth you
26:23know like why do it you don't have to so
26:26just give everybody an a you get a high
26:28evaluation so like the incentive there
26:31is no incentive for an instructor to
26:32give a hard grade um and then there is a
26:36kind of once one Professor starts give
26:39kind of taking that easy incentive then
26:43everybody kind of does it uh and you
26:46know we see this in companies where you
26:48know you have a soft manager promotes a
26:51employee then every manager goes every
26:54other employee goes well that bum got to
26:56be a vice president and why not me and
26:59then you know that that takes off so I
27:00think it's kind of like a natural
27:03organizational Evolution if you don't
27:05have some very strict standard on
27:09grading um and so like like I think it
27:12just naturally went there but I I'm not
27:14sure well I'll give you two other I
27:16think that's right and like the role of
27:17like I think it's like rate my
27:18professor.com like I think is pretty
27:20Central now um but I give you two other
27:22incentives I think I would suspect uh
27:24one is development uh don future
27:26donations right which is the other
27:28constituency here is the
27:31parents and then and then by the way
27:33these students and then these students
27:34later later on becoming donors right um
27:37and you know like I think that the the
27:40professors most professors are not that
27:43directly connected to the fundraising
27:45process though I think but yeah that
27:46that could be certainly yeah but it also
27:48but there here you go to like here would
27:50be a reason for the administrations to
27:51not be holding the line on on um yeah
27:54you know angry parents like the last
27:56thing you want to deal with is an angry
27:57parent who donated a ton of money
27:59that's like that's no fun at all so so
28:03in that way definitely the same thing
28:04yeah yeah and then the third is you know
28:06look the other version of this I've
28:08heard I've heard this from professors is
28:09like look if you could you for bad
28:10grades you can be hul in front of
28:12administrative proceedings you can get
28:14in trouble right because you can open
28:15the door to Fair fairness right um
28:18Equity um you know classroom conduct
28:21yeah um you know complaints like the the
28:23students and their parents can complain
28:24and they can give you a false you know
28:27harassment complaint or something
28:29because d right yeah yeah hostile
28:31classroom you know like uh you know
28:33there are the HR the sort of HR you know
28:34the HR policies basically provide an
28:36Avenue you know and by the way there's
28:38Avenue for legitimate complaints but
28:39also if you're a professor you must you
28:41must be thinking about boy I you know
28:43what what's the last thing I need in my
28:44life is to open the door to somebody you
28:46know saying something like that um and
28:48so yeah I think that's to me that I
28:50think that that's my analysis is just
28:52and this is the thing the great
28:53inflation thing like the great inflation
28:54thing has been it's been a like a
28:5550-year trend like the the charts there
28:57are like actually pretty linear yeah so
28:59this this has been growing for a long
29:00time people have people have known about
29:02this um and it's just it's not a problem
29:05as long as the credential is still
29:06intact right um but I think it's at the
29:09point now where I I think it's damaging
29:11the credential right it's slip slip slip
29:12all at once yeah and I think that um
29:15well so there's another thing which I
29:18got in a huge kind of argument about
29:20when I was a trustee and you know to
29:22Columbia's credit they uh I I you know
29:25they did the right thing in that case
29:27all of the schools so there's you know
29:30kind of whatever Harvard College
29:32Columbia College like these things are
29:35almost impossible to get into you know
29:37they accept a thou on the order of a
29:38thousand students a year every you know
29:41high school graduate in the world wants
29:42one of these slots um they're very hard
29:45to get and you know that's the
29:50credential but there's also a these
29:54things the extension schools which are
29:56not taught T by professors um they're
30:00taught by like whatever somebody from
30:03Goldman Sachs who's you know wanting to
30:05do a little side education work or this
30:08and that um and they can let in tons of
30:12people they're far larger than the
30:14actual University kind of college
30:16program um you know har and they all
30:18have them Harvard has it you know
30:23and they are mainly foreign students so
30:26it's mainly like Chinese students and
30:28then they purposely and this is where I
30:31got into the argument they purposely
30:33labeled the degree so it's very hard to
30:36tell that it's not the credentialed one
30:40University Master's in statistics was
30:43the big kind of debate that we kind of
30:46got into at the extension school because
30:48the people in the engineering school
30:49were like what the hell like that's the
30:53same degree that we're giving out in
30:56title like how is an employer going to
30:58distinguish and the truth is the Chinese
31:00employer cannot distinguish like that's
31:03like really hard for them um and so you
31:09enough and you know it it It ultimately
31:12Waters down the gree now in the United
31:14States like we can distinguish you know
31:17we got a student coming from Harvard we
31:18like talk to other Harvard students make
31:20sure they knew them like
31:22like it's possible to sort but it's not
31:25possible to sort for everybody um and
31:27they're purposely obfuscating it um
31:30because it's a huge Money Maker these
31:32schools everybody pays full Freight
31:34there is no scholarship there is no
31:36financial aid there's none of that and
31:38so you know it's a and and then it's
31:41very scalable because they can let in as
31:43many students as they want because
31:44they're not taught by professors and
31:45there's no none of this credential idea
31:49um but it ricochets back into weakening
31:53credential yeah and a lot of this you
31:55alluded to it but I'll just focus on for
31:57a second a lot of this is a lot of these
31:58are then International students yeah um
32:01and the core of a lot of this as you
32:02said is this is yeah if you're if yeah
32:04if you're a Chinese employer you might
32:05not understand the gradations here yeah
32:08now having said that Chinese employers
32:10can use the internet just like everybody
32:11else or at least in this I'm sure for
32:12this you know for this purpose they can
32:14yeah um and so that that's the kind of
32:16information asymmetry um that the
32:19internet historically has been very good
32:20at demolishing yep yeah yeah know and I
32:22think that that is I mean which kind of
32:25is going to be thematic in this disc
32:27discussion which is a lot of the things
32:30that the university kind of could rely
32:32on um get undermined by the internet and
32:37uh you know that which is causing things
32:41to come to a head I think you know maybe
32:44not right now but certainly soon yeah
32:47coming and then Ben on the on the on the
32:49overall credentialing Point um so yeah
32:51what's your view you know we we deal
32:53with both a lot of tech companies and
32:54also a lot of non- tech a lot of big big
32:55non tech companies also um like where
32:57are CEOs and hireing managers in
33:00corporations on on this topic of like
33:03the value of the University credential
33:04Now versus 10 years ago and then where's
33:06it going it it it hasn't changed
33:09materially yet uh in my view but for the
33:13first time in my career people are
33:16really discussing it and you hear CEOs
33:19going wow the kids coming out of college
33:22this year are not what I'm used to um
33:26they're not you know and I'm getting
33:29kids from weird places you know not
33:32Harvard not MIT like it used to be in
33:34Silicon Valley I think Facebook you're
33:36on the board of meta they used to only
33:38hire people from uh Stanford MIT I think
33:42or Harvard Sanford MIT like they had
33:45like strict rules on uh nobody has that
33:49role anymore like that rle is gone like
33:51I I don't know any company that you have
33:53to be Stanford Harvard or MIT to like be
33:57um and you know more and more people are
34:02you know not finished school coming
34:04straight out of high school uh so so I
34:07would say the aperture which is really
34:09great by the way has opened but the
34:11other thing is um that I I am hearing a
34:15lot just anecdotally is you know
34:18Stanford students aren't what they were
34:20uh you know like I got a engineer from
34:25not they're they're they're not ready
34:28you know steady they're not ready to go
34:30in the way they were before um and so I
34:33think that it's all already there's
34:36definitely a credential degrading that's
34:39already occurring with this first time
34:42though with this class coming that just
34:45came out so well it's pretty nent and
34:49it's not I don't think it's really
34:51changed hiring practices much other than
34:54people are casting a wider net um but
34:57they're not like still like a Stanford
34:58degree is very powerful very powerful uh
35:03but you could kind of see it's like a
35:05glimpse of the future for the first time
35:07like I've never never heard that before
35:09I mean you know like and if we project
35:11forward if nothing if if current trends
35:13continue yeah um like what what do you
35:15think will be the the the take among
35:16sort of Leading Edge Employers in five
35:18years well I think look I I think if you
35:24um that's a pretty big change um and and
35:27so it's a little unpredictable
35:29because okay what are they admitting
35:33People based on you know like you know
35:36do you have to have high scores on the
35:38AP exams do you you know do you have to
35:41have very rigorous curriculum um you
35:44know I know at Colombia it really
35:47mattered the quality of the high school
35:48that you went to even when you know they
35:51had SATs so the the question is is that
35:57whatever rubric of criteria that they're
36:00using to replace the SAT as good um at
36:05uh you know identifying very gifted um
36:09students or is it not as you know is it
36:11worse and and I think we don't know that
36:13yet yeah but like would you predict in
36:15five years that employers are still just
36:17basically deferring to the degree the
36:18question of a c of a of a recruits IQ
36:21and conscientiousness or are they feel
36:22like they're going to have to validate
36:24otherwise I kind of think they're going
36:26to have to validated I mean I just
36:29because it's different uh yeah
36:32and on kind of entrylevel
36:36jobs you can do some like fairly
36:39rigorous testing particularly you know
36:41for an engineer or something like that
36:43in in the interview process um but you
36:48know look Stanford you have just a huge
36:50benefit of the doubt I mean look I think
36:54meta at one point took any engineer from
36:57Stanford you know what I mean like
36:59because they were that that good of a
37:01that good of a signal yeah yeah it was
37:03amazing signal so I I don't think
37:05they'll do that anymore I think Google
37:07just to close on the topic I think
37:09Google Now formerly does not take
37:11college degrees into account or at least
37:12they said they're they're neutral or
37:14ambivalent or don't care they'll they'll
37:16they'll equally rank people without
37:17degrees they they do their own testing
37:19um and they go on those house yeah yeah
37:22yeah so I think that um I think that's
37:24going to become much more of the norm
37:26where companies do their own testing U
37:30be you know it's not legal at least for
37:33sure not in California to do a general
37:35IQ test for a specific job but you can
37:39do pretty rigorous job specific tests
37:42that you know certainly kind of you know
37:45include something that's going to you
37:47know ability to process information
37:49quickly etc etc okay um well I'm sure we
37:52this will come back up again so we'll
37:54move to number two so the actual the
37:56actual education the actual education um
37:58the courses themselves so so here I
38:00would just say um you know one one lens
38:01on this is actually the the Again part
38:03of the bundle here there's actually a
38:04bundle of four different kinds of sort
38:06of education and coursework um at least
38:10four but I would say there's there's
38:11four big ones um so there's the sort of
38:13classic Humanities uh or liberal arts
38:16which as I said is sort of derived from
38:17the the English model um there's what we
38:20now call STEM um science technology
38:22engineering math which is as we said
38:24originally derived from the German model
38:25and and that's you know pH physics and
38:27everything from physics to engineering
38:28and so forth um then there's social
38:30sciences which is a bit more of an
38:32American innovation which was social
38:33sciences are like a hibrid of humanities
38:35and Stam and so these are Fields like
38:37psychology sociology economics public
38:39health education that were kind of
38:41developed as quote unquote Sciences yeah
38:43anything that has science in its name
38:45isn't science is is the joke right like
38:48you know there's no physics science or
38:50chemistry science it's only political
38:54science yes yeah so the polit the CL the
38:57classic tension is the political
38:58scientists absolutely insists that
38:59they're scientists just like the
39:00physicists yeah and the physicist insist
39:02no absolutely you're not no you're not
39:04because it's not science right like it's
39:06not like I have a p hypothesis that's
39:08testable and I can run an experiment and
39:11find out if I you know my predictions
39:13come true like so if it's not that it's
39:16not science but whatever capital S
39:18science um and there's a whole
39:20degression we could go on about where
39:21where this all came from but yeah they
39:22sort of they're in the middle somewhere
39:23and then and then there's what I would
39:25call the trade school um which is
39:26basically um uh law medicine business
39:29and Performing Arts um which is
39:31basically like you know if you go to one
39:33of these places for specifically for a
39:34law degree like that's a very specific
39:36obviously set of courses credential um
39:39or for you know to become a concert
39:40pianist or something like that or a
39:42doctor um and so there there is this
39:44kind of bundle even within the bundle uh
39:46overall bundle there's this bundle
39:47within the educational courses component
39:49of it which is these are actually Four I
39:50would say four quite different kinds of
39:52curricula yeah um and then that
39:54basically takes us to sort of the the
39:56the problem here um so one problem here
39:58is the sheep skin effect we already
39:59talked about um which is basically you
40:02know at least a very strong suggestion
40:04that at least for at least for some
40:05degrees and some institutions the
40:07education is not as important uh as
40:09people might think or let's just say the
40:11the market the market of employer
40:12certainly doesn't doesn't think it is
40:14because you just look at the
40:14compensation data and it shows that but
40:17then there's this other monster problem
40:18and again this problem has been
40:19discussed at length for decades but it
40:21feels like it's also coming to a head
40:22here getting much more politically
40:23potent um which is the student loan
40:25crisis um which is you just have a very
40:28large number of graduates um of American
40:31colleges universities where they're
40:32carrying these large amounts of student
40:34debt and in you know in the really bad
40:36case it's actually debt because of the
40:37high interest rates it's actually debt
40:39that compounds and kind of grows initely
40:41over over the life of the student and
40:43you can't get rid of it with bankruptcy
40:44yeah yeah well so that right well so
40:47this is very interesting so so so on the
40:48one hand there's been this big
40:50controversy there's been a lot of heater
40:51on this question politically which is
40:52for a long time student loan debt
40:54federal student loan debt specifically
40:55cannot be dist charge the bankruptcy and
40:57it's the one form of debt that can't on
40:59the other hand though you now have
41:00direct bailouts um so in the last three
41:04years right the current the current US
41:06Administration has been doing a series
41:08of bailouts uh where they've been doing
41:10arbitrary top- down eraser of the debt
41:12which you know and of course they call
41:13it they call it you know forg they use
41:15this very clever word forgiveness which
41:16makes it sound wonderful of course what
41:17it just means is it means other
41:18taxpayers right other people are going
41:20to are going to put put the bill for it
41:22um and that's always sensitive in the
41:24American system at least because of
41:25course theic poity is composed in part
41:27of people who went to college and in
41:29part who didn't yeah um and so people
41:31who didn't go to college might not be so
41:33Keen about having their text money
41:34getting used to forgive you know student
41:36debt for nonproductive degrees and then
41:38and then honestly there's also a moral
41:39hazard issue that comes up which is
41:41among people who took on college debt
41:43there's the people who paid it off
41:44versus the people who didn't yeah they
41:46the people who paid it off don't get
41:47forgiven and so then there's a s there's
41:49this thing there's this weird incentives
41:50thing where it's like well okay if this
41:52is the new way that it goes then I'm a
41:53sucker if I pay off my own student loan
41:55debt because in the future there will be
41:56another bailout yeah and I'm not so so
41:58anyway so this has become like a pretty
42:00potent political issue but I think
42:02underneath this is this question of like
42:03okay like are all of these degrees and
42:06all of these institutions actually
42:07generating graduates who can actually
42:09command Market wages that actually make
42:11this entire thing basically an
42:13economically and politically viable
42:14proposition yeah that I think that's the
42:16exact that's the question that is the
42:20thing we should be debating
42:22because the the whole forgiveness thing
42:25is insane say in the sense that you're
42:28not actually addressing the real issue
42:31it's the ultimate Bandit yes you're
42:33buying votes yes you're giving some
42:36relief but the fundamental issue is it's
42:39now become clear that for a large swath
42:42of the population college is not worth
42:44the money you would not have a college
42:47uh student loan crisis if whatever you
42:51paid for college paid you back in the
42:54form of a job that was worth far more
42:56than the degree um but what's happened
43:00is for a huge percentage of the degrees
43:02the degree is worth less than uh than
43:06the job so it's you know
43:08basically we as a society are running a
43:12scam and ripping off a huge percentage
43:16of our young people who are going to
43:18college with the clear expectation that
43:20they're going to get a higher quality
43:22job and being able to pay for college
43:24but that's absolutely not the case
43:27uh and um that's the real issue and if
43:30we don't address that it doesn't he
43:32could forgive this batch but what about
43:34the next batch and the next batch and
43:36the next batch and the next batch it's
43:38still not worth the money and I think
43:40that's the great thing that has to be
43:43reckoned with and that's a big big issue
43:47because tuition you know the quality
43:50degree has got to be pretty hard to pay
43:53$300,000 yeah that's a lot of money for
43:56you know even in the kind of in today's
43:59inflationary world to go make back up
44:02you know working for a living which I
44:08customer right there there's many
44:10customers which we'll get into but like
44:12as a student what do I want well there
44:16are maybe 1% of the students want to
44:20become Scholars and then 99% of the
44:24jobs and for that set the value
44:27proposition is getting extremely shaky I
44:31think across the university system um
44:34which is why we have the student loan
44:36crisis and there's been an amazing
44:38inflation of tuition which has grown at
44:42I think tuition rates have grown at two
44:45or three times the uh General inflation
44:47rate which is insane in the face of
44:51technology that ought to be able to
44:53reduce the cost of Education
44:55dramatically as we've kind of talked
44:57about like it's all on the internet and
44:59it's all in chat gbt like there is no
45:02knowledge that you can't just like get
45:05from your smartphone very cheaply and
45:07easily and so why am I paying
45:10$300,000 and you know it is for like the
45:14credential um but the credential itself
45:17um depending what you get your degree in
45:20may not be worth $300,000 at all or and
45:22it's clearly not worth $300,000 at all
45:24and that's a big problem
45:26then add a couple things to that so one
45:28is you know this inflation thing um
45:30maybe we could put post a chart to go
45:31with this um that shows this but this
45:33the the cost of the degree Rising faster
45:35than inflation is a continuing process
45:37yeah um and so and compounding you know
45:40here really gets you right um and so if
45:42you compound forward like 300,000
45:44$300,000 $350,000 is like the cost of a
45:47four-year private college degree right
45:48now in the US but if you if current
45:50trends continue and there's no reason
45:52right now to expect that they won't
45:53that's on its way to a million dollars
45:55yeah like and relatively quickly because
45:58of the compounding even if you work for
46:00us that's hard to pay
46:02off exactly exactly and so like this
46:06there's a it's right now it's a one-way
46:07treadmill and we'll talk we'll talk
46:08later on at the end about the overall
46:10fiscal structure of these of these
46:11places but like they they the the
46:13financial structures of these places you
46:15know generally assume that this kind of
46:17sort of super inflation of cost is going
46:19to continue and and and they're building
46:20cost structures that kind of assume that
46:22yeah and that's starting to show up
46:24right that's TR starting to show up in
46:26the application rates of the kind of
46:28percentage of kids applying to school
46:31think so then this also goes to this
46:33thing and we we've been I've been guilty
46:35of this already it's just so easy to do
46:36which is it's so easy to talk about
46:38whether kids should go to college or not
46:40yeah and then whether kids should get a
46:42degree or not but of course underneath
46:44both of those is like which college and
46:47then which degree right um and if you
46:49dig into each of those if you dig into
46:51which college of course there there's a
46:52tiering in the college system where
46:54there's you know four five six different
46:55tiers of institutional quality and you
46:57know quality of the credential and then
46:59corresponding income you know come you
47:00know job offers coming out the other
47:02side and then degrees as I was you know
47:03kind of walking through you know a
47:05computer science degree and an English
47:07degree and you know like they just you
47:09know the English degree maybe as like
47:11spiritually valuable as the computer
47:12science degree but it just doesn't carry
47:14the same economic you know kind of
47:16opportunity out the other side and and
47:17those are two very different Financial
47:19propositions as a as a consequence well
47:21and they cost the exact same amount that
47:23they you know which is you
47:26part of the weird thing and it and it
47:31into you know again to the customer
47:34question you know one of the very
47:36interesting things for me and being
47:37involved in universities um both at
47:41UCLA is that the way that uh the slots
47:46got allocated so the demand for computer
47:48science degrees is extremely high
47:52compared to the you know demand for you
47:56know you name it anything that ends in
47:58studies degrees um but that's not how
48:01the resources at an University get
48:03allocated necessarily they get allocated
48:06based on this you know and it's sort of
48:08a function of the way they're run but
48:11there's the student demand thing but you
48:13know a lot of it is fundraising you know
48:16can you get an alumni to you know give
48:19you like Grant you a professorship or
48:21whatever and then can you politic your
48:25way into more resources within the
48:27university system um which is you know
48:31you know at that level extremely
48:32political and who gets what and so you
48:35end up with generally a shortage of
48:38engineering slots and a plethora of
48:41other slots so now you want to go to
48:43Harvard but you can't you know or you
48:45want to go to particularly like UC
48:47Berkeley or UCLA the public schools um
48:51you know you want a computer science
48:53degree you can't get into computer
48:54science but you can get into Berkeley
48:57but you got to pay the same amount and
48:59you know this is where it gets really
49:01wacky yeah so I think there's I think
49:03there's pressure building and we could
49:05we could spend a lot longer on this
49:06topic but I think there's pressure
49:07building to kind of disaggregate the
49:09question of college into like what tier
49:11of college um and then I think there's
49:13going to be growing pressure to
49:14disaggregate okay what exact kind of
49:16degree um and there's really it's really
49:18a there really a matrix there really a
49:19two-dimensional Matrix there and the
49:21economics of of both the student view on
49:23this as well as the institutional view
49:25on this actually VAR a lot depending on
49:26where you land in that two- dimensional
49:27Matrix and that's that's not that's not
49:29generally how this stuff is discust or
49:31analyzed it really gets to you've got a
49:33huge bundle that you provide to a huge
49:37you know very diverse weird set of
49:40customers not not diverse uh rationally
49:43but you have to satisfy students
49:49faculty sports fans everybody right uh
49:53and so it's it's a pretty hard product
49:56build yeah and then some State systems
49:59have started to carve back on some of
50:01the degre they're starting to cancel
50:02some of the degree programs that they
50:03think don't pay off yeah economically
50:05that and that's been cont in those
50:06States I know that's been controversial
50:07because of course that's going to tend
50:08to hit Humanities liberal arts the
50:10hardest yeah yeah um and then that
50:12becomes very controversial which is are
50:13these institutions walking away from you
50:15know kind of their core education
50:16Mission if they're only focused on the
50:17economics and so I think there's a lot
50:19of potential future pressure here yeah
50:21it gets kind of a little bit what is the
50:23purpose of the University right so
50:25through the lenses of the student you
50:27know they really want a job and if
50:28they're going to Fork over that kind of
50:30money they really need to get a job
50:32whereas like the University was free
50:34then it would be a different story um
50:38and then what is its function in society
50:41and to build the right morals to
50:44well-rounded people all these kinds of
50:46things come up and you know there was
50:48been a lot of criticism of us in our
50:51world that we're not um well-rounded
50:53enough uh in this this kind of thing
50:56right like that's been a a pretty steady
50:58criticism from the press that if we had
51:00majored in Humanities then you know we
51:02would have designed social networks in
51:08better um not sure about that but that's
51:10a criticism anyhow yes exactly I will I
51:14will not take the bait
51:16um okay number three uh number three um
51:20uh research Bureau so um and and this is
51:24sort of the the research this is sort of
51:25the research that's done um and again
51:27here there's a there's sort of a tearing
51:28or there's a set of different things but
51:30this is the sort of University level
51:32research that happens for sure in the
51:34hard Sciences um but like physics and
51:36chemistry and math and then also
51:38computer science then also in the social
51:39sciences and the social sciences you
51:41know whether the physicists would agree
51:42with it or not the social science
51:44scientists think you know think that
51:45they're doing the same kind of research
51:46and then you know even in the humanities
51:48that same research approach you know
51:49that same you know the humanities
51:51professors you know um grad students
51:53write papers and you know publish in
51:56and get evaluated in in a very similar
51:57way so that same kind of at least the
51:59workflow um and form of the product is
52:01basically the same um you know this this
52:04concept of the research University um
52:06like I said is somewhat derived from the
52:07German model but particularly the
52:09American Research University is heavily
52:10based on uh the thinking of a of a guy
52:13named vanar Bush um who was uh famously
52:16FDR he's actually a character in
52:18Oppenheimer um Matthew modin I think
52:20played him um he was um uh FDR science
52:24adviser and he was sort of the FDR's
52:26main guy at the level of the federal
52:27government overseeing the Manhattan
52:29Project um and science policy in the US
52:31and then he basically he and his kind of
52:33you know colleagues basically designed
52:34the modern research University as we
52:36understand it today coming out of 1945
52:38and created the sort of modern Federal
52:40funding complex of things like the
52:41National Science Foundation National
52:43Institute of Health DARPA and so forth
52:45for funding funding research yeah and
52:46those those are very important we we
52:48need to get into that because that
52:50that's corrupted some things
52:52itself exactly so the the sort of um you
52:56know the sort of way I think of looking
52:57at you know sort of how is this going um
53:00you because this is so Central to the
53:01model um is uh right now globally there
53:06are three million published uh academic
53:13red so this is the thing so um three
53:16million and specifically published in
53:18journals yeah right and so these aren't
53:20like PDFs on the internet these are like
53:22published in journals um right so they
53:24go through editorial process a
53:26peerreview process like they go through
53:27that full process um you know
53:29universities American universities
53:31famously have this process for for for
53:32new professors they call publish or
53:34Parish um which is you're you're
53:36evaluated you know for for to get
53:37promoted you know you start out a
53:38assistant professor professor full
53:40Professor tenure uh and then at some
53:42point maybe an endowed chair and the way
53:44that you kind of climb the ladder as a
53:45professor is through your research and
53:46the way that you demonstrate your
53:47research is by publishing papers and so
53:49if you talk if you talk to professors
53:51actually they complain about this a lot
53:52which is there's just a lot of pressure
53:53to publish papers you know whether
53:55there's anything actually meaningful in
53:56them or not is is sort of is sort of
53:57secondary you know and again this is
53:59their complaint um and then there's this
54:00question of like okay like where are the
54:02results right like how do how do we
54:04score you know this is like a if you if
54:06you chart like the number of papers per
54:08year over the last 50 years it's one of
54:10these lines that's like straight up to
54:11the right are the results up to the
54:12right and you know there have been lots
54:14of studies over the years Robert Gordon
54:16is an American Economist the famous who
54:17wrote this big book about this that
54:19basically says you know that the the
54:21actual amount of scientific progress
54:22coming out of that if you try to measure
54:24that is BAS basically like flat and
54:27down um and so it seems like there's
54:29some Divergence that's taking place
54:31there um there's a couple ways to think
54:33about that um one is there's What's
54:36called the replication crisis um and
54:38this uh kicked off in I think 2005 when
54:41a Stanford Professor named John ionius
54:43wrote a now famous paper uh with the
54:46title half of all published research
54:47results are wrong um where he did a
54:50statistical analysis and basically
54:53basically asserted that claim there have
54:54now been extensive replication studies
54:56in many fields um and you know it varies
54:58by field but somewhere between like a
55:00third to On On The Low End like a you
55:03know a quarter to a third and on the
55:04high end like up to twoth thirds or
55:05three quarters of all published research
55:07doesn't replicate uh which is to say if
55:10you run the same experiment again you
55:11don't get uh you don't you don't you
55:13don't validate the results and so there
55:14there seems to be like an actual quality
55:16control issue which we could talk about
55:18then there's the impact question Ben
55:20that you brought up which is how often
55:21are these papers cited uh and that you
55:24can do citation counts and it turns out
55:26most most papers are never cited and
55:27then that you can also do readership
55:29counts like Library lookups Journal
55:31lookups and it turns out that like it's
55:32like I don't know half the papers are
55:33never even read um and then you've got
55:36this additional problem and this is
55:37where things get controversial but you
55:39know look you you have you have you have
55:41a lot of published Journal articles
55:42these days that are for example in this
55:44category they call Auto
55:45ethnography um which is basically people
55:48talking about their own opinions on
55:50things um and sort of observing
55:52themselves as like subjects um and this
55:54is a l lot of the research that happens
55:55in the S of humanities and liberal arts
55:57these days and those papers you know you
56:00could have an opinion of them which is
56:01just like wow this just seems like you
56:03know sort of n you know Naval gazing not
56:04that you know there nothing really just
56:06you know it's like I have an opinion you
56:07have an opinion let's let's both write
56:09our opinions right and publish them and
56:10call them papers but these all this also
56:13the reason I bring this up is not just
56:14to pick on them it also just turns out
56:15they have like basically they generally
56:17have zero zero future citations yeah um
56:20and so they're they're not cited by
56:21anybody else they're not they're not
56:23there may be something brilliant in them
56:24but they're not leading anything there
56:26something adding to the knowledge of the
56:28world right if right if they were being
56:30read and cited that would be a good sign
56:32but they're not in a lot of cases being
56:33read and cited um and so if you add all
56:35this up I mean you can and and you know
56:37and look you and I both know you know
56:38people who come have come out of the
56:39University system who who would would
56:41would Express this quite strongly which
56:42is like it it does appear that there is
56:44some sort of Crisis going on um which is
56:47um you know basically the the there's
56:49something broken in the research engine
56:50not in the process but in the outcome um
56:53and um and in particular the replication
56:55crisis at the heart of it like if the
56:58science doesn't replicate it's not
56:59science like it's not real like
57:00something you know something else
57:01happened along the way and then that
57:02opens the door to like well did was this
57:04no you know there there look there have
57:06been cases of overt fraud you know there
57:07have been you know criminal cases that
57:08have flowed from this where it turned
57:10out that people were you know
57:11deliberately lying in a lot of cases it
57:13appears they're not lying maybe they
57:14just like don't realize that they're
57:15publishing fluke results anyway like the
57:18the just say this there there is a long
57:20there's been a 20 coming up in 20 years
57:22now of debate in the scientific
57:23Community as to what's going on here um
57:26and so yeah let's let's pause on this
57:27topic because it's so Central to the the
57:29the mission of the modern University on
57:31the negative side the other problem is
57:33you know Government funding uh turns out
57:35to be highly corrupting because what
57:37happens is uh the way the funding works
57:40is there's a panel of government
57:43bureaucrats that takes proposals for
57:46research um and then approves them and
57:50like you know as venture capitalist you
57:52know that's not going to lead to
57:53anything good because they're basically
57:56only funding ideas that they understand
57:59um which are very very incremental
58:02shallow uninteresting things to research
58:05as opposed to real breakthroughs um and
58:07I'm I know this very well because I'm on
58:09the board of pisy which is Sean Parker's
58:11Cancer Institute and we've adopted the
58:14model of the Howard Hughes Medical
58:16Institute which also funds research um
58:21researchers so you know it's like
58:22picking an entrepreneur pick the
58:24smartest researcher and let them do
58:26their and fund them to do their work as
58:27opposed to because science is not I'm
58:31going to do this and I do this it's I'm
58:33gonna go explore this problem and I may
58:35discover something and that's how
58:36everything's been discovered you never
58:38kind of do what you set out to do and so
58:42the whole Government funding process is
58:44incredibly corrupting and bad um and
58:47massive uh and drive so much of the
58:50research that's done in universities
58:52because it's a gigantic it's like a
58:53gusher of cat cash uh so it cannot be
58:56resisted but it's it's set up in a very
58:59horrible way um so that's that's a
59:03problem I will say you know like we I
59:05mean we should um state that uh we have
59:08funded many things that have emerged
59:10from universities uh including you know
59:12we've uh funded um you know a company
59:16doing crisper from the kind of inventor
59:20funded you know data bricks out of
59:23Berkeley which was a search done you
59:25know on computer science and scalable
59:27systems in their uh basis in their
59:30amplab um we discovered uh funded any
59:33scale which is out of the basis lab we
59:34funded Martine out of the uh Stanford
59:37out of Nick mccuen's lab um and so like
59:42obviously our money is where our mouth
59:43is and there's some very good things
59:45coming out of University still like you
59:47know a really important break through
59:49research Technologies things that save
59:51lives um so it's not a zero I just want
59:55to like make sure that we're clear on
59:56that I think that it's massively
59:58inefficient um a lot of the research is
01:00:01completely useless a lot of the fields
01:00:03that are being researched are completely
01:00:04useless uh but um you know I I do think
01:00:10one there are so many genius scientists
01:00:14in universities that we we have to be
01:00:16kind of careful to sh you know you know
01:00:20as a society shift the money to uh
01:00:23funding the the the people who really
01:00:25need the you know whose research we
01:00:27really need and away from this just
01:00:32ridiculousness um good okay let's uh put
01:00:34it tie that off for the moment um and
01:00:36then let's go to number four so number
01:00:38four policy Think Tank um so this is a
01:00:40very interesting thing that happened
01:00:42this started about a hundred years ago
01:00:43this a wood Wilson idea right wood yeah
01:00:47it's a wi Wilson era thing almost 100
01:00:49almost exactly 100 years ago is when
01:00:50this started um and in particularly
01:00:51there's there's a book called public
01:00:52opinion written by a guy Nam Walter
01:00:54Litman that sort of Define this at the
01:00:56time what I'm about to describe and so
01:00:58um just introduce the topic by saying
01:01:00the following which is um you know today
01:01:02it's just like totally normal to like
01:01:04read in the newspaper that like there's
01:01:06some social issue um you know poverty or
01:01:09something something health or something
01:01:10right um and then they will quote in the
01:01:12newspaper experts um in that field and
01:01:15those experts by definition
01:01:17are they're University professors right
01:01:20like by by default those are always
01:01:21University professors um and and so the
01:01:25the professors are kind of the Oracle of
01:01:26wisdom in that in that in that area and
01:01:29then the the media so basically the
01:01:31media picks up the expertise from the
01:01:33expert professors out of the
01:01:34universities and then the politicians
01:01:37basically receive that through the media
01:01:39and then and then and then the media and
01:01:41then the politicians basically that's
01:01:43the content for the proposals that the
01:01:44politicians take forward like that's
01:01:46where the that's where the proposals
01:01:47come from um and then when you're trying
01:01:49to pass the law you're like well this is
01:01:50based on Research like this isn't just
01:01:51like my opinion this is based on like
01:01:53research that took place in the what
01:01:54ever you know political you know such
01:01:55and such and such Health Policy
01:01:56Department at Harvard or whatever it is
01:01:58right um and so it's it's it's it's
01:02:00validated now if you go back
01:02:02historically like prior to about 1920
01:02:04this was not how things worked like in
01:02:06like 1850 if somebody's trying to pass a
01:02:08law or something they're not quoting a
01:02:10Prof like if you quote a professor it'
01:02:11be like quoting a like it just would
01:02:13have been very in congruous like kind of
01:02:15thing just not something people would
01:02:16have done it's crazy yeah like Rand yeah
01:02:19some like some random person right um uh
01:02:23but basically so what Walter did in this
01:02:24book is he basically the the claim at
01:02:26the time basically was and I think you
01:02:29know look I think this made some sense
01:02:30at least at the time was basically you
01:02:32know in the old world like system
01:02:35societies were simpler everything was
01:02:37smaller countries were smaller you know
01:02:39the pre- earlier you know you didn't
01:02:40have modern techology smaller yeah
01:02:42governments were smaller you know and
01:02:44you didn't have all these systems you
01:02:46didn't have like you know you didn't
01:02:47have modern you didn't have fully modern
01:02:49developed economies you didn't have like
01:02:51healthare systems you didn't have
01:02:52education you didn't have all these
01:02:53systems that got built these systems
01:02:55kind of got built between like you know
01:02:561880 to 1920 in a lot of cases you
01:02:58didn't you know everything mass media
01:03:00and mass manufacturing and all these you
01:03:02know big systems and so basically what
01:03:04what he said was like look like the
01:03:06modern policy issues are are now more
01:03:08complicated than normal people can
01:03:10understand um and so there's just no
01:03:12normal person and particularly there's
01:03:13no normal voter in their day-to-day life
01:03:15who's going to be able to have like a
01:03:16coherent opinion on like healthcare
01:03:17policy um and so he's like basically we
01:03:20need essentially a Priestly class of
01:03:22secular experts um who actually have
01:03:25full-time skills knowledge bandwidth to
01:03:27be able to do all the work to understand
01:03:28these issues and then make the
01:03:29recommendations to the politicians um
01:03:31and then the politicians basically their
01:03:33job is to sell that to the public um and
01:03:35he said basically that will be a
01:03:37superior method of governance than than
01:03:39letting actually voters decide anything
01:03:41um you could make a Steelman argument to
01:03:44say that that worked really well at that
01:03:46time because you know if you had like
01:03:48you know super smart people in the these
01:03:51various you know positions um and you
01:03:53know maybe it's better well so
01:03:55interesting question right um you know
01:03:56there's a lot of dispute over even what
01:03:58happened in the3 around that idea was
01:04:00immediately followed by the Great
01:04:02Depression I'll just point out the Great
01:04:03Depression exactly in World War II right
01:04:05so yeah exactly right and so there
01:04:07there's like a historical debate about
01:04:08whether that worked then but then
01:04:10there's a pressing debate as to whether
01:04:12that's working today um and I would just
01:04:14say that like you know there's just a
01:04:16very obvious kind of flaw in that logic
01:04:18today which is it's it's an empirical
01:04:20observation that the faculty at American
01:04:23universi is now radically polarized on
01:04:26in in one political Direction um and
01:04:29radically and we could also post a graph
01:04:30on this maybe which is the numbers are
01:04:32like really radical there's there's
01:04:33fields in which it's like you know 30
01:04:34to1 you know uh liberals to
01:04:36conservatives or 50 to1 or 100 to one
01:04:38right um and then basically you know
01:04:40it's it's just kind empirically in the
01:04:41data the the idea of having conservative
01:04:43faculty these places is basically is
01:04:45basically no longer no longer the case
01:04:47they can't get hired they can't get
01:04:48promoted they can't get tenure and so
01:04:50increasingly the policy recommendations
01:04:52coming out of the policy Think Tank
01:04:53components these universities are very
01:04:55sharply partisan and extreme um and and
01:04:58and look if you're on that side you're
01:05:00obviously in favor of that but it it
01:05:02it's it's just it it's hard to believe
01:05:04that that that that that therefore the
01:05:06universities will continue to be
01:05:07accepted by the political process RIT
01:05:09large um as the as the advisers in the
01:05:11way that they have in the past yeah no
01:05:13and I you know and also well you this
01:05:16kind of brings up like interestingly I
01:05:18hate to get into today's politics but
01:05:20the Roland frier case right where yeah
01:05:23you know here we have probably you know
01:05:25one of the most important issues of um
01:05:30you know our generation which is this
01:05:32whole question of police brutality and
01:05:36you know how does race play into that
01:05:38and so forth and literally one professor
01:05:41in the country did definitive research
01:05:43and not just a professor but you know I
01:05:46think one that you know most people in
01:05:48the field require you know regard as a
01:05:51true genius of the of the field and not
01:05:53only that an accept exceptionally hard
01:05:54worker who ran a great lab and all that
01:05:56kind of thing and and it also happen
01:05:59happened to be black and and was black
01:06:01so kind of uh you know credible on on
01:06:04that front and you know he he he came to
01:06:08some very interesting definitive
01:06:10conclusions or or like you know
01:06:13conclusions that that that I think were
01:06:14important because
01:06:17um you know they got to like what is the
01:06:20root cause right like what what is the
01:06:23root cause of the problem and uh you
01:06:26know he he got basically steamrolled by
01:06:28the politics at Harvard uh and you know
01:06:32and and and by the way then you know
01:06:34what happened subsequently is his
01:06:36recommendation or his kind of ideas were
01:06:38not uh taken by Society what was taken
01:06:41were people who were kind of who did far
01:06:43worse or no research um and but were
01:06:47experts and you know kind of the result
01:06:50was the defund the police movement and
01:06:52the uh subsequent like radical increase
01:06:56in murders of black people over the last
01:06:58two years which is you know probably the
01:07:01the the greatest domestic tragedy that
01:07:06and you know and that's what the system
01:07:09put out so I think to your point um the
01:07:12truth can't come out uh or like the
01:07:16truth is somewhat illegal in the current
01:07:18University policy system uh depending on
01:07:21what it is and not not all truths are
01:07:23illegal but some are are way illegal and
01:07:26the consequences are dire uh and uh you
01:07:29know like it's something that you know I
01:07:33you know is very personal to me but um
01:07:37you know I think this you know it's not
01:07:39this just happens to be one of the more
01:07:40visible kind of times the system failed
01:07:43but I'm quite sure it fails in in in
01:07:46other cases that are just as
01:07:48important yeah and I'll talk about this
01:07:50at the end but the if you look at the if
01:07:51you look at trust ratings uh trust
01:07:53gallop does TR trust survey of of
01:07:55American voting population uh view of
01:07:58universities and the the numbers are
01:08:00just I'll talk about this the numbers
01:08:01are in collapse uh but in particular the
01:08:04numbers are in collapse among the people
01:08:05on the right um and you know again if
01:08:08you're like on the left you're like okay
01:08:09that's fine it doesn't matter but you
01:08:11know it turns out people on the right
01:08:12also vote they're also a big part of the
01:08:14tax base um and if the system loses
01:08:17credibility among half the population
01:08:19half the voter base um it's hard to see
01:08:21how there will be continued political
01:08:23support for the level of funding that
01:08:24that currently exists yeah yep yeah yeah
01:08:30yep you know that so definitely a big
01:08:33problem but I I I would just say again
01:08:35like you know there's obviously great
01:08:38research going on in universities um and
01:08:41so which is a huge asset to the country
01:08:44and um ought to inform you know the
01:08:47great research Auto and for policy and
01:08:49and so we we do have to be careful with
01:08:51the baby and the bathwater on this one
01:08:53because there there's not really another
01:08:55um set of in or there's not another set
01:08:57of Institutions that does this kind of
01:09:00work so and then I'm going to bundle the
01:09:01next two together so moral instruction
01:09:03and then I'm just going to go straight
01:09:04to social reformer so I say moral
01:09:06instruction is like I said there's this
01:09:07historical role that a lot of univ a lot
01:09:09of American University started actually
01:09:10as religious kind of moral uh
01:09:12institutions um they you know they're
01:09:14not formally religious institutions
01:09:15today but they maintain sort of a moral
01:09:17instruction role um and then what I call
01:09:20the Social reformer and social reformer
01:09:21is sort of the implementation of the
01:09:22moral instruction um so they they they
01:09:25take a step back past simply having an
01:09:27opinion about the ordering of society
01:09:28they're actually taking actions to try
01:09:30to change the ordering of society and in
01:09:32particular this of course the the Hot
01:09:33Topic here is is uh is is Dei and of
01:09:36course Dei is very hot political topic
01:09:38right now for two reasons one is the
01:09:40massive controversy over um the Supreme
01:09:42Court case on Admissions and the use of
01:09:44diversity or adversity you know kind of
01:09:46scores and Dei programs generally um
01:09:49legal challenges on those and there's
01:09:50going to be more cases like that coming
01:09:51up um and then the other is this current
01:09:54you know kind of Crisis obviously about
01:09:55you know kind of the more the more
01:09:56recent events but um I am going to um
01:09:59I'm Ben knows far more about this stuff
01:10:01than I do so Ben why don't we uh yeah
01:10:02let's talk about what you think is is
01:10:04most important here well so like you
01:10:07know just kind of starting with morality
01:10:09um you know one thing about humans is uh
01:10:13you know morality is complicated very
01:10:15complicated and it's complicated at you
01:10:16know different scales of society it
01:10:18changes and and these kinds of things
01:10:20and so you know I think Lindy strong
01:10:24moral values are actually like fairly
01:10:27important you know which is why you know
01:10:30the the Bible gets a lot of criticism
01:10:33you know like uh these days you know
01:10:35mainly for you know things that they
01:10:39they said in those days you know
01:10:40particularly about you know like various
01:10:42topics that we've changed our minds on
01:10:44since um but you know like in totality
01:10:48for you know something that's that old
01:10:51and you know it's you know the same for
01:10:54like it did get a lot right and that
01:10:56stood the test of thousands of years um
01:10:59and so now we we're kind of inventing
01:11:01morality as we go and you know I I I
01:11:05would just say what happens when it
01:11:06becomes a moral issue is you can't
01:11:09debate it right like this was a problem
01:11:12with the Bible too right like you can't
01:11:13debate what's in the Bible it's what God
01:11:15said like what are you talking about
01:11:16like shut the f up um and I think that
01:11:18these new moral issues are also hard to
01:11:20debate um you know for many reasons and
01:11:24on Dei let me just kind of talk through
01:11:27where that gets problematic so it's very
01:11:30hard for people to question any of the
01:11:34Dei or Orthodoxy because you get cons
01:11:37you know not of um being on a apostate
01:11:40or Blasphemous but of being racist or
01:11:42sexist and that's probably in modern
01:11:45society I'd say worse than being an
01:11:49Blasphemous um and so people don't
01:11:52really think about how the systems
01:11:55around that work and just to give you an
01:11:58example so you kind of have to think
01:12:00about Dei like if
01:12:03you're an employer and you're trying to
01:12:07hire the best most talented Workforce
01:12:10possible you know what are your
01:12:12assumptions about your Dei program that
01:12:16you go into with and you know this is
01:12:18something as as you know that's I'm I've
01:12:21studied extremely hard in my life in my
01:12:24career and you know what we implemented
01:12:27at the firm you know nothing on this
01:12:29kind of thing is anywhere near perfect
01:12:31but look we're the most you know like
01:12:34fact most diverse uh Venture Capital
01:12:37firm in the world like and we know this
01:12:38from Maxine Waters who requested all the
01:12:40diversity numbers and basically played
01:12:43that back to us you know and we're at
01:12:45Large Scale 550 people so it's
01:12:47diverse we as you know do not have a
01:12:50head of Dei and so forth and it's
01:12:52because we we start from a different
01:12:54assumption than um than these di
01:12:58programs start from and our ironically
01:13:02the assumption that we start from is the
01:13:04non-racist non-sexist Assumption which
01:13:06is we believe the talent is out there
01:13:09and if you believe the talent is there
01:13:11is talent in the world that is in kind
01:13:15of different categories um then the
01:13:19approach you take to the system is
01:13:21basically three-fold one is you have to
01:13:23have the right criteria for the various
01:13:25jobs which means that not we're not uh I
01:13:30think Caris switcher had this thing the
01:13:31mocracy well like you and I don't hire
01:13:36ourselves for every job because one like
01:13:39we're not that great at networking and
01:13:42like we have a firm that like its whole
01:13:44business is networking and we hire
01:13:47people for that and that's a very
01:13:49different criteria than like something
01:13:52that we would just like replicate
01:13:53ourselves on secondly you know from a
01:13:56recruiting standpoint you need to go far
01:14:00and wide and find the best talent like
01:14:03if you look in the exact same place if
01:14:05you hire everybody um you know you're
01:14:08going to get the same kind of people so
01:14:09you have to kind of expand the scope of
01:14:12like where you going to go find the
01:14:13talent and then the third thing that you
01:14:15have to do is you have to create a work
01:14:17environment where and this is where the
01:14:19universities go horribly wrong that's
01:14:22great for people to work who are from
01:14:24different backgrounds like that that's
01:14:26kind of how you would design the system
01:14:28and that's sort of how we've designed
01:14:29our system and you know when we think
01:14:33about the diversity in Andre and
01:14:35Horowitz we never think of it in terms
01:14:38of oh this person is as good as the
01:14:40white man who would do the job right we
01:14:43think of there's no white man that could
01:14:45do that job like that could have built
01:14:48the cultural leadership fund like that
01:14:49that's not even possible um and so
01:14:52that's a it's a very different lens but
01:14:54it starts from a belief that talent that
01:14:56I need is out there and in like
01:15:00different populations if you were on the
01:15:03other hand took the assumption that the
01:15:04talent is not there You' do exactly what
01:15:06the universities do and I know this from
01:15:08their the way they hire their faculty is
01:15:11what would you do you'd make race and
01:15:13gender explicit criteria so two things
01:15:17that objectively have nothing to do with
01:15:19the actual job that you're hiring for
01:15:21but are sub stitutes for the fact that
01:15:24you don't believe the talent is there
01:15:26and that's what they do and then the and
01:15:28then what is the side effect of that and
01:15:30the side effect of that and this is
01:15:32what's happened in all the universities
01:15:37am the whatever diverse candidate I am
01:15:40the women Professor the black professor
01:15:42Hispanic professor as soon as I get
01:15:43there everybody knows what our process
01:15:45was what our hiring criteria was and I'm
01:15:48a second class Citizen and that's the
01:15:50worst and so then the ret
01:15:53retention is bad and like I saw this at
01:15:55col like the retention is terrible for
01:15:57all your diverse hes it's way worse than
01:15:59your retention for your regular hires um
01:16:03and then how do you fix that more racism
01:16:07so then you go well like we need to make
01:16:09it you know we need to start not
01:16:11bringing in anybody who's not of this
01:16:14criteria and that kind of thing and then
01:16:16you're you're just in this weird
01:16:18degenerate State based on a
01:16:20morality um that you weren't allowed to
01:16:23discuss and so because you know like
01:16:26luckily because I run the firm I discuss
01:16:28it with you we can get around that and
01:16:30we can do things um but like they're all
01:16:34starting from like a racist sexist set
01:16:37of assumptions that like the only way to
01:16:41bring in diverse people is to make race
01:16:45criteria which by the way isn't true um
01:16:48and it's objectively not true because
01:16:50like I mean we're 550 people more than
01:16:54you and I are the founders we're like
01:16:57white men Jewish does not count as not
01:17:00white um but like we just had the right
01:17:04criteria we were very very careful on
01:17:05our criteria for the job we had many
01:17:07things in the criteria that we don't
01:17:09have we have a whole process for
01:17:10generating criteria that um basically
01:17:14aims to make sure that we can find the
01:17:16best talent wherever it is and then we
01:17:19go get that talent and then because
01:17:21everybody in The Firm is hired in any
01:17:24given position on the exact same
01:17:26criteria we have no retention problems
01:17:30among like any of our you know kind of
01:17:33various people we have here and like
01:17:34we're just all A6 zers we're not like
01:17:37the you know we don't have ERG groups we
01:17:40don't need any of that like that's not a
01:17:42thing and so and long long way of
01:17:46saying you know if you can't discuss it
01:17:50you can't design the right program and
01:17:53that you know this is the whole problem
01:17:54with morality right like if if morality
01:17:57religion you just have to have faith in
01:17:59the doctrine but this Doctrine was
01:18:01invented by like a bunch of people who
01:18:03just made the up like two weeks ago
01:18:05not people from 2,000 years ago who have
01:18:08stood the test of time right and like
01:18:10that that whole Doctrine in the Bible
01:18:12lasted many years before they ever read
01:18:14it down and so it had kind of they only
01:18:17wrote down what they could remember that
01:18:19worked and so like that's why it worked
01:18:22and like don't have that process now and
01:18:24and it's a huge I think it's a huge
01:18:26problem um and and I think that has to
01:18:30do with like every moral position in the
01:18:32University which is and and it becomes
01:18:34very quickly indefensible which is
01:18:36what's happening right now yeah so you
01:18:39know as as everybody knows so you know
01:18:41this is now a hot time you know the the