00:00hi and welcome to the a 16z podcast
00:02today's episode a conversation between
00:04Jared rile director of the international
00:07consortium of investigative journalists
00:08best known for the release of the Panama
00:10papers and a 16 ZJ neural partner John
00:13O'Farrell covers investigative
00:15journalism today how the job is changing
00:17what kind of different business models
00:19work and how new technologies are being
00:21used and are shaping the job you're an
00:23independent organization today how did
00:25you get started I see a JD ganas a
00:27branch of the Center for Public
00:28Integrity in DC I've really began as a
00:31network of reporters and they would come
00:33together once a year and they would talk
00:35about investigative reporting when I
00:36arrived I was used to having newsrooms
00:38with 400 reporters photographers graphic
00:41artists and all the resources of the
00:43commercial world we were a little
00:44nonprofit with about 800,000 dollars to
00:48spend so we had about three staff and
00:50maybe room for every now and again a
00:52freelance reporter I figured basically
00:54what we will do is we'll find a great
00:56story and then we'll bring the story to
00:58the publications get their reporters to
01:00get involved get them to invest in the
01:02story from the beginning and that way
01:04you wouldn't have to worry at the end
01:05about getting a publish because it would
01:07be published by everyone who would
01:09basically invested in it so what we do
01:11is we bring investigative reporters from
01:14around the world together to work on
01:15joint projects of global significance we
01:19basically try and find a really great
01:20story and then we barter the story for
01:24the resources of all our media partners
01:26so we go to them with the story and we
01:28say to them if you give us four of your
01:30reporters for a year we'll give you
01:31access to the story or this document
01:33said and it was kind of a radical idea
01:35at the time it's still probably with the
01:37own urbanization in the world it really
01:38does it at this kind of scale there's
01:40probably no better example of that than
01:41the Panama papers tell us about what
01:43they were and how you got involved in
01:46yeah the Panama papers really began with
01:48an anonymous person called John Dole and
01:50he'd managed to copy about 40 years
01:53basically of records of this Panamanian
01:55law firm called mossack fonseca and most
01:57second things like were kind of a
01:58notorious firm around the world that set
02:00up accounts and offshore tax havens for
02:02rich and powerful people who liked to
02:05keep secrets and John Doe had copied
02:07every file from his firm every client
02:10sheet every record since 1977 to the
02:13they represented but eleven and a half
02:15million documents and he gave them to
02:18the German newspaper we'd been working
02:19with this German newspaper for a while
02:20so they immediately turned to us and
02:23said let's make this into a global
02:24investigation and so that's where it
02:27began and then we basically made the
02:30documents searchable and readable for
02:32the journalists that we brought into the
02:34project and then we approached our media
02:36partners and then more and more media
02:38partners in the end we had about four
02:39hundred reporters working on the stories
02:41in 76 different countries and we worked
02:44in silence and total secrecy for about a
02:47year there were only two rules we all
02:50agreed at the beginning that everyone
02:51who found anything but shared with
02:53everybody in the group and we also
02:55agreed to publish together on the same
02:56day I can tell you when you publish
02:58simultaneously in 76 countries on the
03:01same day at the same time it's like an
03:03explosion you know because then all of
03:05their rivals have to catch up and so
03:07they're all jumping in and you get this
03:09great momentum on a story that you would
03:11never get if you just you know publish
03:14one detail and that's the real power of
03:16our cij the only thing we asked for the
03:18media partners that we that I CAJ decide
03:20when we're going to publish because we
03:22want to have a huge bang for our buck at
03:24the end and there has to be a kind of a
03:26neutral party in the middle that decides
03:29these things because you can imagine the
03:31New York Times trying to negotiate with
03:32the Guardian the Americans on a
03:33publisher and Sunday the British want a
03:35copy sure they're Monday so I see a J
03:37axis a kind of neutral referee in the
03:39middle that decides these kind of big
03:41decisions in the end really so you
03:43worked for over a year and none of this
03:45leaked out it was like Jordan relieved
03:47four hundred journalists and all these
03:49publications may not how on earth did
03:51you manage maintain secrecy for that
03:53long it's the quite opposite of
03:55everything you've been told to do as a
03:56journalist took a secret but also to
03:59share information you know you looked at
04:01these documents your immediate reaction
04:02was well here's a great story I want to
04:05publish it right away you know Argentine
04:07partners for instance had to put up with
04:09the fact that there were elections in
04:10Argentina while we were researching and
04:12they had information that could have
04:14potentially affected the election from
04:16both sides of politics while we're
04:18researching the stories the FBI began to
04:21indict officials at FIFA and of course
04:23we were seeing in the Panama papers all
04:25of this information that would have been
04:27Bahai investigation so there was like
04:28huge pressure on us to publish as we
04:31were going along but we had to maintain
04:33that secrecy because we knew that if we
04:36were managed to publish together on the
04:38same day who's going to basically have a
04:40much bigger impact if we waited how we
04:42kept a secret was we basically built an
04:44online newsroom where all the
04:46journalists would go every day and in
04:48this online newsroom they were able to
04:49gather around the topics of interest but
04:52that also allowed them a kind of a
04:54venting where if they found something
04:56amazing they were able to tell everybody
04:58else what they were finding and that is
05:00a very important part of investigate
05:01reporting because when you find
05:02something important your first instinct
05:04is to scream out loud to your wife to
05:07your best friend you want to go to the
05:08pub and ever drink and say hey I just
05:09found blah blah blah whereas by allowing
05:12them to talk to each other they were
05:14able to share the secret and then go
05:17so when you did come out it was with a
05:19big bang as you say so tell us a few of
05:21the big stories that came out of the
05:23Panama papers and the impact they had
05:24yes we published in April 2016
05:27within 24 hours their prime minister of
05:30Iceland had to resign there were public
05:32protests around the world after about an
05:35eighth year we also took down the Prime
05:37Minister of Pakistan so we had two world
05:39leaders who had to fall and what was
05:41revealed about them that caused them to
05:42well well we knew from almost day one
05:45that the prime minister of Iceland was
05:47in the documents if you looked at the
05:48dates very closely you would see that he
05:50had the secret offshore company in the
05:52British Virgin Island called winters Inc
05:53but the date of the company you know
05:56preceded his time in politics so in
05:58order to make that a story we had to
06:00bring in a journalist from Iceland I
06:03sent in such a small place that we had
06:06to be very careful who we picked you
06:08know I say we don't pay the journalist
06:10so we gave him the story that was his
06:12reward but for nine months he had to
06:15give up all peut work and work in secret
06:18he basically found that the Prime
06:21Minister had sold the company to his
06:22wife a day before he was supposed to
06:24reveal this to Parliament and it was for
06:27$1 and then the real breakthrough came
06:29later in the research when we found that
06:32good loud son who's the prime minister
06:33actually had a financial interest in
06:35those banks and how we found that out
06:37was by going through the records of the
06:41of the various banks so he had the
06:43secret company that had a financial
06:44interest in the banks they haven't told
06:46anyone about and he was the one
06:47negotiating the settlements for the
06:50banks so he had a huge conflict of
06:51interest within 24 hours the Parliament
06:55and Iceland was surrounded by people and
06:57they were throwing bananas and yogurt at
06:59the building and demanding his
07:01resignation what about the Pakistani
07:03Prime Minister he also had posture
07:06accounts we found that his family his
07:09kids basically who were not even
07:11teenagers at a time owned these
07:12multi-million dollar or multi million
07:15pound properties in London which they
07:17couldn't possibly ever Ford as so of
07:19course the allegation was that he had
07:20been funneling money through his kids
07:23and there was a high court case in
07:25Pakistan that were known for almost a
07:26year and finally they basically found
07:28him guilty of corruption and he had to
07:30resign at the moment we got about 150
07:32inquiries in something like 80 countries
07:35around the world governments have
07:37recovered about half a billion dollars
07:39and taxes and basically the message
07:41there was that they behavior that they
07:43were engaged in was no longer acceptable
07:45mossack fonseca itself which was a
07:48sprawling Empire of companies around the
07:50world has now closed the principles
07:54one of my favorite things was this
07:56Mexican drug cartel who were arrested
07:58after we published you know details
08:00about their hideout and they've been
08:02using the address for their offshore
08:04company to launder the money and it was
08:06kind of an unexpected consequence you
08:10uncovered some nefarious doings by
08:12Russian oligarchs as well yeah arguably
08:15the biggest story that came out of the
08:16Panama papers was that we found about 20
08:18billion dollars that was being funneled
08:20through offshore companies that were as
08:22a linked to a guy in Russia who was the
08:26Godfather of Vladimir Putin's child and
08:29here was a guy who you know had no
08:31outside sign of wealth at all he had
08:33never appeared on any radar with any of
08:35the intelligence agencies there was
08:36never on any lists of people to watch he
08:39played a cello in an orchestra in Moscow
08:42and yet here he was the owner of 20
08:44billion dollars worth of money and we
08:46had this sort of crisis moment in the
08:48Panama papers who he also had to go to
08:49Vermeer Putin and say can you please
08:51answer these questions and almost within
08:54sending the email with all the questions
08:56to the Kremlin they called a press
08:58conference at the Kremlin denounced I
09:00CIJ as an arm of the CIA and there was
09:03an American plot to bring down Russia
09:05but this was before the Panama papers
09:09story so you can imagine the cover them
09:13you build your story did they well they
09:15did yesterday the phone was started
09:16going off and it's the editor of The
09:18Guardian and it's you know it's this and
09:19it's that and they're all saying oh we
09:20have to publish now we can't wait
09:22another week and you know my job was to
09:24say no we're waiting a week this is this
09:26is great free publicity people now are
09:29waiting for this to happen for a week
09:30and it's only building an audience for
09:32our shows you followed that with the
09:34Paradise Papers it was a very different
09:36challenge for us and it was actually
09:38more documents than the Panama papers
09:39got about thirteen point four million
09:41documents on the end of the paradise
09:43papers probably the most exciting stuff
09:46came from this law firm called Apple B
09:48an Apple B was almost a direct opposite
09:51of most Eichmann Seca
09:52it was very high-end it was what they
09:55called a Magic Circle law for him it's a
09:57reference to the top seven law firms in
09:59London in the offshore world is actually
10:00a Magic Circle as well and that will be
10:02were at the very top of it and their
10:04clients were like Nike and uber and as
10:07it turned out the Queen and bono and all
10:09those people were also clients and again
10:12we did it the same way we set to work
10:14with about 95 media organizations around
10:16the world we built a system to allow the
10:18journalists to look at the documents we
10:21put them all in an online newsroom again
10:23same methods but there were more
10:25challenges to the documents because
10:26there were in different formats and and
10:28very very difficult to understand and
10:30read and we were looking at you know a
10:33lower level of criminality that when
10:35mossack fonseca whereas Applebee my
10:37favorite reference to them is the
10:39british used to refer to it like when
10:41you were in the offshore world and you
10:42were in trouble and then Apple we would
10:44appear it was like watching British
10:45Airways land you know it was that sort
10:47of sense of comfort they had so you've
10:50been working in secrecy with hundreds of
10:52journalists around the world and you're
10:54tackling vast amounts of data as well so
10:55I'd imagine you make a lot of use of
10:57technology or you must
10:58could you talk about that a bit maybe we
11:00could break it down into categories for
11:03example how do you communicate and how
11:06do you maintain secrecy both for
11:08between your journalists but also with
11:09sources one of the first things i did as
11:12i cij director was to hire two
11:14technologists two engineers because i
11:16figured that if we're going to succeed
11:18we really needed to use the power of
11:20machines to help aid the journalists
11:23because we had impenetrable documents
11:26and so what we first of all actually had
11:28to make them searchable readable but we
11:30also then needed to write scripts so
11:31that we could search every member of
11:33congress or every member of the set at
11:35the same time so that the computers
11:37could do a lot of their legwork for the
11:39reporter so you could feed in thousands
11:41of names at a time and get potential
11:43hits and then the business of being a
11:45journalist would start and you would go
11:46through each of these hits to see if you
11:47actually had a story the virtual online
11:50newsroom that we built was a technology
11:52called aux wall which you know was
11:53basically built for dating websites and
11:56so we adapted that for our own use and
11:58then with the documents itself we
12:00adapted technology called backlight
12:02which was built for librarians there's
12:05this company in Sydney called pneumix
12:07that do reasonably sophisticated
12:10software that they sell to governments
12:12around the world and tax offices so I
12:14thought okay maybe we can use their
12:16technologies so I approached them and
12:17said we're a non-profit can you give us
12:20your technology for free and if we ever
12:22do publish we can tell you what we're
12:24doing we'll give you some publicity they
12:26were the first to back us back in 2012
12:29and now they're a billion dollar company
12:31the technology called neo4j allowed us
12:35to build our third tool eternal issues
12:36were able to put all of the names
12:38addresses and companies into notes but
12:42it allowed us to look at very
12:43sophisticated networks and work out
12:46potential stories like for instance the
12:49story on FIFA that we did for the Panama
12:51papers was all done using that way
12:52because we knew that that node there
12:54through all these different lines who
12:56ended up with that node there so we knew
12:58we had to be a connection between that
12:59node and that node and that node was a
13:01lawyer and this node were bad people
13:04that had were being mentioned by the FBI
13:06and in the end that guy was quite
13:09interesting because he turned out to be
13:10a guy who was sitting on the ethics
13:12committee at FIFA and he was the one
13:14setting up the offshore companies for
13:15the guys are being indicted by the FBI
13:17we would never have been able to do that
13:18as journalist because you would had a
13:20wade through millions
13:21whereas this technology allowed us to
13:24see something and visualize a map and
13:25then it was a matter of just reverse
13:27engineering that and working through and
13:29seeing what the connections were what
13:31about visualization in terms of your
13:33internal work are you able to then show
13:35your work with visualization tools well
13:37it shows these connections between
13:38different nodes yeah so when they were
13:40looking at these nodes we were looking
13:42at what potential graphics we could do
13:43so with the prime minister of iceland
13:45you can click on this and you can see
13:47where winters went whereas a dress went
13:49and other things you can click on a node
13:51and it'll expand out so you can see
13:53these vast networks if we were looking
13:54at did you make available the actual
13:57records that were uncovered in the
13:58paradise or a panel of therapist no no
14:00that the history the Panama papers
14:01really go back about five projects the
14:04very first project we did in offshore
14:05was in 2013 and it was called offshore
14:09it was first leaked of offshore material
14:11and we decided at the end of that
14:13project that this information needed to
14:14be made public so we went to the lawyers
14:16and they said well yes it can be if
14:19there's a public interest argument at
14:21the time David Cameron who was the
14:23British prime minister was visiting the
14:24White House and he was reacting to our
14:26stories and he was saying this is the
14:28kind of information that should be
14:30public so we had our public interest
14:31arguments straight away and so we
14:34stripped down all the underlying
14:35documents and only made basic
14:37information name address and the name of
14:40the company available and then every
14:42time I got a new leak we would build on
14:43that so when we got the Panama papers
14:45that has now gone into the offshore
14:47leaks website and so we've now built the
14:49biggest collection of offshore material
14:52a man's ever seen and it's now been used
14:54by governments all over the world to do
14:56basic research banks that are doing
14:58compliance work we're almost like a gold
15:00to destination website now for anyone in
15:02the offshore world and with the paradis
15:05papers we've been adding the directories
15:07of the various countries on to that and
15:09journalists are also finding stories
15:11that we didn't find there was a story in
15:13the LA Times as this week that we had
15:15missed they came to us and they'd
15:17spotted something they pitched the idea
15:20asked for access to the underlying
15:22documents we just got a grant actually
15:24from the Swedish postcode lottery this
15:26year to try and expand on that and bring
15:28all the leaks together into one sort of
15:30searchable readable database that can
15:33automatically send out information to
15:35journalists yes bit like a Google Alert
15:37we can do that for you now so you made
15:39this available to the public is there a
15:40role for ordinary citizens and this or
15:43is this really the problems of
15:44journalists the original idea of the
15:46officer league's website was to
15:47crowdsource news stories so we had a
15:50little link from the original website
15:52that allowed people to give us tips and
15:54things I saw and that actually led to a
15:55number of stories and we get tips all
15:57the time people email us two or three
15:59times a week with things that we've
16:00missed we found their president of the
16:02Seychelles and their witness the first
16:04day so we did a big story on that
16:05eventually I started a little bit about
16:07communications specifically how do you
16:09make sure your communications are secure
16:11and and also provide security to sources
16:13we use what we call the iHelp which is
16:15our online newsroom to communicate among
16:17each other we also extensively use PGP
16:20communications all of her emails are
16:22encrypted we use all these open source
16:25software that anyone can use like wire
16:27even what so what are the problems we
16:29have at the moment of one of the biggest
16:30problems journalism has is that you have
16:32to assume that you're being watched or
16:34that your emails are being read your
16:36phone is potentially being not
16:38necessarily tapped but at least the
16:39information being collected for future
16:41use so it makes it very difficult for us
16:44as journalists now because we're trying
16:45to protect sources in the age of
16:47information where sources can gather
16:49millions of documents in a way that's
16:51never been possible before and the
16:53challenge also these days for
16:54journalists is to go through those
16:55documents and so we're in a kind of an
16:57inflection point I think ideally what I
16:59would really love is to be able to build
17:01a system where you could have
17:02communications with us just by going to
17:03our website and talking and knowing that
17:05it's secure and I guess maybe someone in
17:08this room will work that out and come to
17:09me and tell me what to do but the
17:11technology is there because it's been
17:12used by a lot of these wraps that are
17:15being available to me this is so better
17:17about that been that for journalism what
17:19about physical security you've given the
17:20number of people you've managed to well
17:22create trouble for honestly I don't
17:24worry about it but it's a very real
17:26issue for us because a number of our
17:28journalists were threatened some of them
17:29lost their jobs we've had a couple of
17:32very high-profile incidents of course
17:33one of our employees
17:35his mother was blown up in Malta she was
17:39a journalist working on the Panama
17:40papers but separate to us recently you
17:43saw another journalist and so Vecchio
17:45was killed again he was working on
17:47the Panama papers again not through us
17:48but through another organization but
17:50we've given them access to so there are
17:52very real threats I know our Russian
17:53reporters before we publish a story in
17:55Putin had left the country so when we
17:57published they weren't there they did go
18:00journalists are putting their lives in
18:03danger in some cases I want to open it
18:05up to the audience I just have one more
18:06for you before we do that Jared what is
18:09ICJ's position on privacy how do you
18:11balance the right of people to now
18:13versus the right of the individual to
18:15maintain privacy it is a delicate
18:17balance era we supply the public
18:18interest rule and everything you know
18:20when we're looking through these
18:21documents were not interested in
18:22people's bank accounts their passport
18:24details I don't believe in making that
18:26public and I think that's the difference
18:27between IC IJ and say an organization
18:30like WikiLeaks that just publishes
18:31everything I very much believe in that
18:34journalists should apply journalistic
18:36methods and ethics to what they're
18:38seeing and that we should be a filter
18:40for the public and we should publish
18:41what's in the public interest that's not
18:43to say we don't get complaints almost
18:45every day we published the entire Malta
18:47registry recently and they're saying
18:48well I'm a multi citizen and I have a
18:50company and mortar why is my name and
18:52address there Malta is a tax haven it is
18:54being used by others around the world
18:56and therefore there is a public interest
18:57in having this information available
18:59it's a bit like if you registered a
19:01company in California that information
19:03is available so why should there be a
19:05different rule for the offshore world I
19:06mean the offshore world really only
19:08sells one product and that secrecy and
19:10if you can take away the secrecy then
19:12you wouldn't have all of the issues and
19:13when I say issues is not just about tax
19:15avoidance its money laundering it's harm
19:17stealing its corruption at every level
19:20that's a journalist story after story
19:22after story I always ended up in the
19:24offshore world and that was the end of
19:25it and you would talk to the police and
19:27other agencies and they would always say
19:29are like you having a whole point you
19:30get to the offshore world it's a
19:32complete blank and I remember thinking
19:34in the beginning wouldn't it be great to
19:35break that secrecy what if you get get
19:37inside the secrets of the offshore world
19:39and that's what we found with the Panama
19:41papers and far those papers we found
19:43hundreds of politicians and world
19:45leaders and they all had secret offshore
19:48accounts great questions we had three
19:54really basic questions we ask every time
19:56basically is something a public interest
19:59say there was a pothole outside your
20:01front door it's of interest to you and a
20:04lot of people right to say I've got a
20:06pothole at my front door
20:07but no one else in the room has got the
20:09bottle but if everyone here in the room
20:11in Menlo Park was going outside the
20:13front door and stepping into a pothole
20:14you would clearly have an issue of
20:16public interest and you have to ask
20:18yourself who cares about this story and
20:20you really have to apply that Public
20:22Interest test now if we were all
20:24stepping into bottles then clearly
20:26there's a systemic issue which is the
20:28second question we always ask is there a
20:30some sort of systemic issue here we're
20:31looking at that in other words is there
20:33something that people would not expect
20:35to happen you mean you expect your
20:37potholes to be filled because you pay
20:38your taxes if that isn't happening then
20:41we have a systemic failure of some kind
20:42and that is the second question we
20:44always ask and the third question which
20:46is a little bit controversial again for
20:48insurance is can we get a result from
20:49publishing the story so if we publish
20:51the story about the potholes will the
20:53council's or whoever's responsible come
20:55along and fix it can we actually make a
20:58difference and when you apply those
21:00three tests or three questions to any
21:03story you'll find that if they pass the
21:05three questions you've got yourself a
21:07good story but you do focus on you focus
21:10particularly on corruption is that fair
21:11we focus on anything that's global so
21:14it's got to be something that affects
21:15people in Brazil and France in Germany
21:19because we have to have kind of a unique
21:21story for each of our media partners to
21:23get them interested in a story with your
21:25experience and background do you have
21:27thoughts on how we can course correct
21:30the news that's out there and getting
21:34accurate information positive people
21:37it's a difficult environment I've been
21:39the whole journalism world is imploding
21:41and has been imploding for the last 10
21:43years so the business models that have
21:45sustained reporting which is the
21:47advertising business model it's no
21:49longer I worked for The Sydney Morning
21:51Herald at a time when they had 450
21:52journalists they look at they have 50
21:54now and it's the same everywhere you
21:57look so I guess the answer really is
21:59we've got to as journalists we've got to
22:01find some sort of a new business model
22:02that allows to pay for the journalism
22:04because otherwise what you're getting is
22:07what you're seeing now I'd given up
22:09investigative reporting before I took
22:10this job I had gone into newspaperman
22:13because I no longer had time to do the
22:16stories I wanted to do and they had no
22:17stomach for it anymore I was too
22:19expensive investigative reporting teams
22:21are the most expensive parts of every
22:22newspaper because you've got to give the
22:24journalists time to do the research you
22:27then often just get sued every time you
22:29have to be able to have very deep
22:31pockets to be able to do that kind of
22:33journalism and of course the first thing
22:35that happens when they've got no money
22:36is that they give ative investigative
22:38journalism teams and so I think the
22:40nonprofit is one way I think because
22:42this is one of the few countries where
22:43it's tax-deductible we are very very
22:46cost effective for every media
22:47organization we work with we were able
22:49to bring economies of scale here so
22:52you're worth real money to these they're
22:54only giving us a couple of reporters and
22:55for that they're getting days and days
22:57of material it should be doing on the
22:59local level but also go back to
23:01journalists are not making use of
23:03technology they're not gathering
23:04information they're not doing things in
23:07a smart way they're still doing things
23:08the way we've been doing them for 40 or
23:1050 years journalism is all about
23:12information and we should be gathering
23:14the information because once you have
23:15the information you can look for the
23:17patterns and that's what stories are
23:18really about the potholes the patterns
23:20you're seeing why haven't we got every
23:22bit of information about I'm already on
23:24record why shouldn't we be just querying
23:27why isn't that happening in a local
23:29level where you just team up with your
23:31local radio station and TV station and
23:32do the story together share the
23:34information and then you get the huge
23:35bang I think you'd all agree
23:37investigative journalism has never been
23:39more important than it is right now so
23:41thanks Garrett for joining us today
