Chris Dixon: Who Will Win the Next Generation of Venture? | E1132
20VC with Harry Stebbings2024-03-27
927 views|4 months ago
💫 Short Summary
The speaker discusses his journey from studying philosophy to venturing into AI and computer science, his success in internet startups, and the founding of Founder Collective. They highlight the importance of financial security in investing, early seed funding, and different venture strategies. The discussion delves into the significance of being a good partner to startup founders, high conviction in investments, and understanding historical forces for future predictions. The speaker emphasizes blockchain technology's potential, the evolution of the internet, and the impact of AI. They advocate for responsible crypto development, clear regulatory environments, and the importance of books in influencing the industry.
✨ Highlights
📊 Transcript
✦
Influence of Philosophy on Career Path
01:54Studying philosophy led the speaker to the world of AI and computer science.
Past experiences with computers, entrepreneurship, and freelance programming contributed to his journey.
Found passion in internet startups during the late 90s and 2000s in New York.
Interest in philosophy and technology shaped his path towards success despite initial uncertainty.
✦
Transition from Venture Capital to Angel Investing and Founding Founder Collective.
04:16Started own company with General Catalyst and shifted to angel investing with Ron Conway's guidance.
Co-founded Founder Collective in 2008, focusing on consumer internet seed funding.
Identified opportunity in the market due to lack of seed funding options, especially on the East Coast.
Despite starting during the financial crisis, the fund was successful and stood out among few funds at the time.
✦
The importance of financially secure investors in venture capital.
06:43Rich investors are less fearful of downside and bring less paranoia to entrepreneurs.
Principal-agent problems in venture capital where individuals may not align with the interests of LPs.
The significance of effective reserves deployment in early seed funding.
Different approaches to follow-on investing are explored.
✦
Importance of Early Seed Investing and Potential for Big Returns.
10:13Transition in the venture industry compared to the barbell effect in retail, with examples like Amazon and boutique brands.
Contrasting strategies of large funds like a16z and Sequoia offering operating services with smaller sub-50 million funds focusing on deep expertise.
Mention of different strategies in venture investing, such as 'heat seeking' and 'truffle hunting'.
✦
Comparison of heat seeking and truffle hunting investment strategies in venture capital.
13:51Heat seeking involves a sales approach to popular deals, while truffle hunting requires expertise in a specific area.
Importance of understanding and utilizing each strategy effectively.
Founder references play a crucial role in securing investments at major VC firms.
Emphasis on the importance of honesty and integrity in the market.
✦
Importance of being a good partner and fiduciary to startup founders.
16:43Need for honest feedback and support to benefit the company.
Recommending changes like CEO change or governance adjustments for company success.
Valuing friendship with founders while maintaining professional roles and responsibilities.
Founders benefiting from VC advice, networks, and experience in fundraising and building connections.
✦
Importance of high conviction in founders for influencing investor decisions.
19:20Significance of founder referencing in securing investments.
Consistent focus on specific verticals like blockchain, AI, and bio despite market fluctuations.
Emphasis on predicting the future over relying solely on metrics and trends for investment strategies.
✦
Importance of studying historical forces and dynamics for understanding the future.
22:35Speaker emphasizes the use of frameworks to navigate complex systems like economics and technology.
Setbacks in the crypto space, such as scandals, are discussed.
Companies are advised to mitigate risks through longer runways.
Value of writing out detailed arguments to vet ideas and constant evolution of opinions based on data and mentorship.
✦
Speaker's career journey and expertise in contrarian areas, financial crisis, blockchain, and VR.
25:21Emphasis on relying on primary sources over mainstream news, particularly in the cryptocurrency space.
Timing highlighted as critical for the success of technological movements.
Potential of blockchain networks to disrupt Big Tech's dominance over the internet.
Discussion on the consolidation of internet control by major companies and the impact of AI on this trend.
✦
The evolution of the internet from protocol networks to corporate-controlled networks has limited successful consumer internet companies.
29:13Major corporations have a 'chokehold' on the internet, hindering innovation and competition.
Blockchain technology offers a solution by enabling the creation of new internet services with societal benefits.
Blockchain-based social networks like Forecaster provide users with more control over their data and audience, resembling ownership similar to an email list.
✦
Evolution of power and control in the software industry towards users and blockchain technology.
30:54History of technology industry with competition evolving across different layers of the stack.
Rise of open-source software and its prevalence in various devices and systems.
Contrasting approaches of Microsoft's 'Cathedral' and the 'Bazaar' model in software development and innovation.
✦
Two distinct communities within blockchains: the 'casino' group focused on trading and gambling, and the 'computer' group viewing blockchains as a Computing movement.
36:44Emphasis on the vibrant and active community involved in Computing conferences like eth Denver, similar to the early days of Linux.
Highlighting the potential of blockchain as a computer movement and the importance of recognizing and supporting this overlooked world.
✦
Challenges faced by the crypto industry in the face of opposition from regulators, banks, tech companies, and the media.
37:45Advocacy for policy prescriptions that encourage productive use cases and discourage harmful casino behavior.
Criticism of the current regulatory system for prioritizing speculation over innovation, posing challenges for the industry.
Emphasis on the need for regulatory guardrails to support longer lockups and ensure responsible crypto development.
✦
Importance of not selling winners in venture capital and holding onto assets in a growing market.
41:00Drawing parallels between speculation in blockchain and the housing market, emphasizing the positive societal value of ownership.
Focus on building useful services that enable digital ownership in regulated markets.
Highlighting the need for a clear regulatory environment to support entrepreneurs and avoid deterring innovation in gray areas.
✦
Importance of clear policies in the crypto space for career choices.
43:46Specific proposals include long lockups, security audits, and disclosures.
Uncertainty of Trump administration's impact on crypto regulation.
Executive branch and judiciary play crucial roles in crypto regulation.
Speaker aims to provide a balanced perspective on technology in the crypto industry through a book.
✦
Impact of books in the crypto space.
47:00Books are gaining popularity among crypto enthusiasts.
Books are seen as influential to open-minded individuals and entrepreneurs.
Books are compared to blog posts and tweets in terms of reach and impact.
Importance of books as 'Canon events' that can truly shape people's lives and guide entrepreneurs in the industry.
✦
Early days of venture capital and importance of firm names and history in fundraising.
50:02Mention of firms like Sequoia and Kleiner and the mysterious nature of term sheets.
Changing landscape of capital weights and challenges faced by boutique firms.
Emphasis on conflicts and limited seed investing, collaborating with seed funds instead.
Need for a sharp value proposition for seed investing success and reference to Ron Conway as a successful example.
✦
Importance of Building Long-Term Relationships with Investors and Assembling an Excellent Team.
53:16Emphasizes the irreversible nature of decisions with investors and the need to understand them.
Discusses challenges faced by board members and investors during market downturns, highlighting the importance of support and care.
Stresses the significance of separating the roles of board member and investor.
Highlights the value of expertise in operating and financial matters.
✦
Importance of Independence and Impact in Investing.
56:07The speaker emphasizes avoiding bureaucracy and transition periods in their work.
Shifting focus towards making a real impact rather than just investing in startups.
Motivation comes from investing in upcoming computing trends and supporting causes like internet freedom and open source software.
Emphasis on viewing money as capital to invest in people and ideas, promoting a healthy relationship with money.
✦
Challenges of remote work and importance of in-person relationships in business.
59:35COVID-19 pandemic highlighted limitations of globally distributed workforce in certain industries.
Concerns about internet freedom, including potential bans on open source AI and blockchains.
Advocacy for open sourcing AI and emphasis on individual project choices.
Strong belief in benefits of dynamic internet economy and innovation.
✦
Importance of integrity, high standards, and investing in strengths.
01:01:43Venture capital business requires hiring individuals with special abilities, even with challenges.
Being agnostic about ideas in investments and valuing intelligence over predetermined ideas is crucial.
✦
Importance of balancing expertise with humility in venture investing.
01:05:05Acknowledge when others know more and remain open-minded.
Long journey to find the right balance and growth of the investment fund.
Investment fund's ability to invest in various assets like Bitcoin and Ethereum.
Dedication to mission in venture space despite challenges and criticisms.
00:00I haven't seen a software movement where
00:02a bunch of very smart people were
00:04excited about it that hasn't eventually
00:05worked I think there's sort of broadly
00:07two methods that work in Venture heat
00:10seeking and truffle hunting all these
00:11different strategies can work but you
00:12got to know what it is and lean into it
00:14the big five companies have 95% plus of
00:16the traffic and the money and AI is
00:18exciting as it is will very likely
00:20accelerate that consolidation if you
00:21could make one change to the regulat
00:24environments say what would it be look I
00:26just think the main thing
00:28is Chris I've been waiting many many
00:31years for this one I've heard so many
00:33great things from especially the team at
00:35founder Collective but thank you so much
00:36for joining me today thank you for
00:38having me I'm excited to be here not at
00:40all but I want to start with a little
00:42bit of context and this is a weird show
00:45for many reasons but I want to go back
00:46to when you were a child if your parents
00:49would have described you or your
00:50teachers would have described you how
00:52would they have described the very young
00:54Chris I think I'm kind of a little bit
00:56of a stereotype of tech people which is
00:58I was into you know it's sort of a
00:59cliche but I was super into computers
01:02and so that was a clear part of my
01:03personality you know programming
01:05computers um and then you know slightly
01:08entrepreneurial like I had various jobs
01:10and tried to start business failed
01:14businesses um you know I don't know I
01:17guess um I I think curious uh slightly
01:22mischievous maybe I don't know or
01:23something
01:25like um but uh you know I I don't think
01:29I yeah I don't know I was um I think
01:32pretty normal in some a lot of ways I
01:34had a nice childhood I grew up in kind
01:36of a smallish town in
01:38Ohio and you know um generally had a
01:41good experience and so I don't think it
01:43anything out extraordinary I heard from
01:45a little birdie that you studied
01:47philosophy at University and then have
01:48continued to study philosophy uh thanks
01:51Alex rampel um how did studying
01:54philosophy impact how you think both
01:56just as a person as an and as an
01:58investor so I got into from computers um
02:01a little bit like the current AI stuff
02:03um I mean it was a long time ago but in
02:05the sense of there's sort of overlap
02:07between for those who've read these
02:09kinds of books there's like Daniel
02:10Dennett and Douglas hoffet and there's
02:12sort of this uh overlap between I guess
02:15with the or they maybe they still call
02:17cognitive science and philosophy of mind
02:19and computer and Ai and computer science
02:21so that kind of got me into it so it's
02:23on the more kind of analytic they call
02:24it um scientific side of philosophy and
02:29um I you know I just like a lot of
02:30people at that age had no idea what I
02:32wanted to do and ultimately and um I
02:36thought arrogantly that I knew had a
02:38program and didn't have any use for
02:40computer science um in retrospect you
02:43know I think I could have taken some
02:44interesting Theory classes and stuff um
02:47the uh um and then I stayed just kind of
02:50through inertia I got invited to stay um
02:54for the for a PhD program but I I was in
02:56New York and in New York you know you
02:59just sort of have to work you know if
03:01you you know unless you have the money
03:02um and so I was always doing uh
03:04freelance computer programming and then
03:06that kind of in New York in the like
03:09around the like late 90s 2000 um if you
03:12were doing computer programming you were
03:13ended up at an internet startup um and
03:15so I sort of discovered that world and
03:18for me that was basically since then
03:20have been you know kind of fell in love
03:22with that um the idea that you could
03:24start a company or you know someday
03:27invest in companies and work on
03:29interesting technology work with
03:31interesting people um uh build products
03:35you know I like the kind of real world
03:37aspect of it you know acade Academia
03:39you're very kind of cloistered when did
03:40you realize investing was your calling
03:43because you obviously were at found a
03:44collective for three years and work with
03:45the team there when was that this is
03:47what I was born to do well I I always
03:50thought it was you know I'd read about
03:51it and thought it was interesting but
03:53didn't have the means or that you know
03:54wasn't well I sorry I worked briefly at
03:56uh bester Adventure Partners as a junior
03:58person in 2003
04:00and for about a year and then but I I
04:03didn't see a path honestly it was a much
04:05smaller industry um and and I didn't and
04:08I thought I had I thought that I needed
04:10to be an I wanted to be an entrepreneur
04:11and I needed to be an entrepreneur I
04:12thought to be a credible investor um so
04:14I left and started a company they funded
04:16me along with General Catalyst um and
04:19then we ended up selling the company
04:21pretty early um in 2006 and I I
04:25literally I think it was the day after
04:26we sold the company I was on the phone
04:27with Ron Conway and I was like I want to
04:29start angel investing and I think
04:31probably 4 days later I was out in the
04:34Bay Area and and he was introducing to
04:37me to people you know like I just wanted
04:38to do that I was working at McAfee but I
04:40also you know it's just it's more of a
04:41corporate job at that point so I had
04:43time to do this stuff um so right away
04:45and then you mentioned the founder
04:46Collective guys uh Dave Frankle and Eric
04:48py like we had known each other um from
04:51school and actually had a business plan
04:53funny enough like this I mean this would
04:55have been a great business but we um
04:582004 we had been talk like years before
05:01had been talking about the fact that the
05:04um that we so we had all been
05:06entrepreneurs Dave and Eric and I and we
05:08had all gone out to raise money and in
05:11the time 2000 you know mid 2000s if you
05:13tried to raise money essentially the
05:15product that Venture capitals offer was
05:18a $10 million series a was sort of the
05:19smallest check they they would
05:22occasionally do smaller checks but they
05:23weren't really built for that like they
05:25they want like especially on the East
05:27Coast they wanted financial statements
05:28they wanted like it just wasn't a seed
05:30funding environment so we actually had a
05:31plan 2004 to start a consumer um
05:35internet seed fund um and the idea was
05:38it's cheaper than I mean this is all
05:39obvious now but I think at the time it
05:41was you know somewhat Forward Thinking
05:43um the idea was to start a uh um yeah is
05:46that companies needed less money and
05:48that the consumer internet was sort of
05:50you know very much frowned upon by the
05:52vent by a lot of at least the East Coast
05:53especially a little less on the west
05:55coast um and that that would there would
05:57be an opportunity there and then I sold
05:59my company Eric sold his company Dave
06:01had been investing like personally and
06:05like I think Eric had gotten some job
06:06offers or something and we said hey why
06:08don't we dust off that business plan and
06:10do it um so that was founder Collective
06:11so we we co-founded it back then and so
06:13that was
06:15200 I think we started in 2008 I think
06:17we closed in early 2009 so we were
06:19raising during the financial crisis
06:20which was I think if you go back we were
06:22one of very few funds then um in the
06:25financial crisis so that was that was
06:26that story but yeah I just always look I
06:28always thought it was interesting like
06:30this world is all these interesting
06:31characters and it's just like another
06:33way to be involved with startups like I
06:34love startups so I was like okay the the
06:36sort of direct way to be involved with a
06:38startup is to start a company and the
06:39and the next best thing is to be part of
06:41it as an investor so I have two
06:43questions on the back of this one is I
06:45have this theory that financially secure
06:48or in other words Rich investors make
06:51better investors because they're not
06:53scared of downside and they don't bring
06:55paranoia and nerves to the entrepreneur
06:58like someone who really needs needs the
06:59money and needs it to work does do you
07:03agree that richer investors often make
07:05better investors I would put a spin on
07:07that I would say that a lot of issues in
07:12um V like speaking of venture capital um
07:15a lot of issues are so-called principal
07:17agent problems um meaning the individual
07:21is not aligned with the kind of the
07:23ultimately with the you know with the
07:25financial interest of the LPS because
07:26like you're a junior person you're
07:28afraid in your you know you have three
07:30shots on a lot of firms you get three
07:31shots on goal or something like that
07:34right and you better have a hit and if
07:37you don't like you're not promoted and
07:39you're fired essentially you know that
07:40creates a kind of a like we describing
07:43and like maybe this also applies to
07:44Angel Investing but if you're like if
07:46you're in a business where one in 10 if
07:48not one in 100 you know 50 are work
07:51really well and by the way in almost all
07:53cases that I've seen the the startups
07:55that work go through a trough of Despair
07:58right they go through a tough tough time
08:01and so if you're in a business where
08:02it's like a very low hit rate relatively
08:03speaking the hits hopefully are so big
08:06they pay for everything and you have
08:08these downturns right you just have to
08:10like the optimal strategy is to is to
08:14you know be really calm and and not
08:16panicky and so and there are lots of
08:18reasons people get panicky one is maybe
08:20like like people should not invest more
08:22than some x% of their Savings in this
08:24kind of this asset class it's a very
08:26risky asset class but it also occurs I
08:28would say what saying is true and it
08:30also occurs with professionals at firms
08:33if they don't have you know if they have
08:35incentives that aren't aligned fully
08:36with the with the fund Chris I I I love
08:38doing the show because I just get to ask
08:40the smartest people in the world
08:41questions that I have naturally and I
08:43just remove the schedule you said there
08:44about the trough of Sorrow I'm totally
08:46with you uh which leads to my no
08:49reserves model I don't think that you
08:51can accurately pick your winners early
08:54if you acknowledge the trough of Sorrow
08:57how do you think about effective
08:58reserves deployment
09:00it's funny you bring it up because like
09:01with founder Collective this is always a
09:03question in like early seed fund like I
09:05I I guess I would you so you're talking
09:07about follow on investing specifically
09:09like how do you do follow on investing
09:10you know I I would say honestly I
09:12started off like back when we started
09:14founder Collective one of our tenants
09:16was to not do reserves and follow on and
09:18and the argument was that we would be
09:21fully aligned with the entrepreneurs
09:22right we weren't trying to like like we
09:24do the first investment and we want to
09:25see the next valuation be higher and so
09:27we're fully aligned and then the other
09:29argument
09:30was your argument I think essentially
09:32that like it's you know markets are
09:34efficient and you know like this it will
09:39it will drag down our returns because
09:41we're going to be averaging up our cost
09:42bases and you know the real Alpha comes
09:45from being early in seed investing you
09:47know I tend I I kind of don't think I I
09:51just think that there's more being
09:52involved you know with a company there's
09:55just you know just seeing like the
09:58ability to see an entrepreneur
09:59over multi-year process and how they
10:01handle things um I don't know I would
10:05say the data also that I've looked at
10:08you know from my own history doesn't you
10:10know because the winners can be just so
10:12if you're good at it the winners can
10:14just be so big that you want to do
10:16pirada so you know I I it's it's look
10:20it's it's a hard question I do think I I
10:22probably lean more toward the reserves
10:24and the pirada kind of thing uh at this
10:26point can I ask you on the on the flip
10:28side of that you mentioned kind of going
10:29back to the early days of found a
10:30collective there and their preference
10:32for no reserves you Doug Leone said
10:34before on the show that we have moved
10:36from a high margin Boutique business to
10:39a low margin commoditized industry I'm
10:42just intrigued given your perspective
10:44now over 14 years having seen the
10:46founder Collective start to the size of
10:49Andre today which is immense and
10:51incredible do you agree with that
10:53transition let me just maybe step back
10:55so my theory and then this I'm not
10:57claiming this is original I you may have
10:59other people say this but I I think the
11:01first thing to think about with Venture
11:03is his Barb right which is um and this
11:05happens sort of deathof the- middle like
11:07this happens in a lot of Industries so
11:08the most famous would be retail where
11:11you know the internet comes along and
11:13you used to have JC Pennies and Sears
11:14and sort of these midsize retailers that
11:17existed for because you you know you
11:19need Logistics and shopping and that's
11:21just the way people bought things was
11:22they go to their nearby town and buy
11:24something the internet comes along and
11:25you have this barbell effect right so
11:28you have the very big winner like Amazon
11:30who are very good at sort of hyper
11:31efficiency and Logistics and then on the
11:33other side you have boutiques um and and
11:36the you know the financial winner there
11:38for example was lbmh which is a roll up
11:41of Boutique Brands right and it's not a
11:43coincidence that the two most successful
11:45retailers for the last 20 years one was
11:47on the one side of the barbell Amazon
11:48and the other was on the the other side
11:50lvmh I think it's similar thing has been
11:51happening in Venture for the last 10
11:53years as as it matures um and so there's
11:56the a16z kind of Sequoia strategy of of
11:59being a you know kind of a big fund and
12:01you have a different product you offer
12:03quote unquote product you offer
12:05entrepreneurs which is you know
12:07operating Services Help full stage
12:09support um and then on the flip side
12:13there's there's the kind of Boutique
12:14model where it's early stage probably
12:17sub 50 million funds um uh uh managers
12:22with some deep expertise in some area
12:26and look my experience is if and and I
12:27would say another dimension to this is
12:29strategy um if all if your strategy is
12:33to like I think there's sort of broadly
12:36two methods that work in Venture I would
12:39call one heat seeking and one truffle
12:40hunting right so heat seeking is you
12:43know it's the team out of Google that's
12:46doing Foundation models and it's just
12:48everybody in Silicon Valley thinks of it
12:50as a hot deal and the game is to win it
12:53right and that can that can work you
12:54know if you get the Google like you know
12:57that or whatever some massive success um
13:01heat seeking can work but it's a
13:02different game than truffle hunting
13:03which is you know kind of the classic
13:05one I think of as like Union Square
13:07ventures in 2005 where they were the
13:10first ones to really see the web 2
13:12movement and and develop that thesis and
13:15you know there's a bunch of cases in the
13:16history of venture where you sort of
13:17like you have a thesis that someone else
13:19doesn't have so I I think like I I guess
13:21I think if you are cognizant to the
13:23barbell and you like like a lot of the
13:26low margin things I think are people
13:27that don't really understand their
13:28strategy so like they're in they think
13:30they're a seed fund but they've raised
13:32$500 million and they're actually
13:33competing with scaled funds that that
13:37are better prepared to Ser as the
13:39entrepreneur um or you don't really you
13:42know I I meet a lot of people who I
13:43think they think they're truffle Hunters
13:45but they're actually heat Seekers and
13:47you need to know what you're doing and I
13:49think both can work all these different
13:50strategies can work but you got to know
13:51what it is and lean into it Chris I I
13:53love this so much for the different
13:55analogies already which would you say
13:57that Andre is heat seeking or truffle
14:00hunting I think we try to do both and
14:02that's the way I think about it and I
14:03think about it explicitly like this this
14:04is a heat seeking investment this is a
14:06truffle hunting investment for truffle
14:08hunting you know by that I mean you know
14:11it could by the way it could be you go
14:13deep often it's deep into vertical
14:15before other people kind of figure it
14:16out it can be within a vertical maybe
14:18it's you know crypto when it's not cool
14:20maybe it's some sub segment of AI That's
14:23out of fashion or overlooked maybe it's
14:25a geography so there's there's a lot of
14:27different ways to do these things but I
14:29think you need to know what you're doing
14:30and if you do each strategy it's a very
14:31different thing like truffle hunting you
14:33got to go deep you got to be an expert
14:35you got to meet everybody um uh you know
14:38you need to appeal to them it's like
14:40when they when the entrepreneur meets
14:41with you when you're in that you know if
14:42you're Fred Wilson doing you know
14:44consumer internet in 2005 you'll hear
14:47you know you heard the reason that that
14:49Twitter picked him you know when it was
14:50a competitive deal at the series a was
14:52that he was using the product he was
14:53deep in the space so it's a different
14:55strategy whereas heat seeking is much
14:56more of a sales motion like you're
14:57trying to win the deal that every
14:59everyone wants to win um and so it
15:01becomes uh you know about can you be the
15:04most helpful it becomes like founder
15:06referencing I think one of the things
15:07about this business that keeps people
15:10honest is that ultimately winning
15:12Investments at sort of at large VC firms
15:16comes down to what the founders say
15:17about you and that's a very good thing
15:19because it keeps it keeps the market it
15:20forces people to behave right I mean
15:22because Al you can't there's no way to
15:24game that like what a Founder will say
15:26it's a special call I think at least my
15:28experience as a found founder if another
15:30founder calls you and they're about to
15:31choose a VC and dedicate the next devote
15:33the next 10 years of their life people
15:35give pretty candid references right
15:37again so many thoughts do you worry that
15:38we've over rotated on Founder NPS you
15:41know we saw a lot of lack of governance
15:43in the last few years where there maybe
15:45should have been some I think and yeah
15:48I'm sorry I didn't mean to no no and my
15:50question to you is simply I agree in
15:52terms of the importance of the founder
15:53reference but it leads to in some cases
15:56just pure negligence because people
15:57don't want to have anything said about
15:59them I think there's a difference
16:00between being the Founder's friend and
16:02being their partner um and so being
16:04their partner means you're you know a
16:06good fiduciary you're supportive you
16:08help the company um you give them honest
16:12feedback it's not always friendly
16:13feedback that's an important like I
16:15think what I think a bad partnership is
16:17you say yes to everything and then the
16:19moment they need money you say no or you
16:22let them behave you know not practice
16:25good governance a good partnership is
16:26you're honest with them you you know you
16:28support them but you're also like there
16:31are times when the best thing for the
16:32company is for example for the you know
16:34for for a CEO change or something and
16:36that has to be a good partner would
16:38recommend that if that's actually the
16:39best thing for the company or a change
16:41in governance or whatever it might be so
16:43I think that distinction is important um
16:45you're not like look I mean obviously we
16:47become friends with people that we work
16:48with but ultimately like you you you
16:50know it's important to keep in mind that
16:54you know the the kind of professional
16:55roles that people have and the fact look
16:57when you're involved with a startup
16:58there's often many employees many other
17:00investors uh it's a important
17:02responsibility to be a good custodian of
17:05those people's careers and so you know
17:08you have to balance all these things
17:09right I've spoken to you know many of
17:11team at Founders fund on the show and
17:12they always say that the best Founders
17:14don't need their VCS and they don't need
17:17help how do you feel about the best
17:19Founders actually don't need their VC I
17:21think there's a distinction between do
17:24you need advice and do you need sort of
17:26network I guess um like I just don't
17:29believe that if you're especially the
17:31the sort of Founders that we tilt
17:33towards which are technical product
17:35Founders they it's just impossible that
17:37they know the right customer Prospect at
17:40all Fortune 500 companies like I just
17:42don't so I think it depend like the best
17:44Founders do they know how to build the
17:45product and the technology for sure and
17:47like for example I I'll speak for myself
17:49and not the firm but I I rarely um in
17:53fact I'm I rarely get involved in in
17:55those parts of the companies and in fact
17:58I probably probably judiciously tried to
18:00not comment on that because I think
18:01sometimes board members and investors
18:03opinions on like this button should be
18:05purple or something like they'll say
18:07these things and then suddenly it'll
18:08become like an organizational priority
18:10um so so I think I think if you know
18:13look but there's just no reason that for
18:15example a Founder doesn't have as much
18:16experience with fundraising they don't
18:18know all the investors they don't know
18:19all the potential Partners they don't
18:20know all the potential customers they
18:21don't have the same Talent Network like
18:23just it's just almost sort of I mean
18:25inconsistent with their if they're if
18:27they're in truly a deep product or
18:28technologist sort of you know founder
18:31they just couldn't be spending have been
18:33spending their time like that um and so
18:35I think I think it's about what you add
18:37um as opposed to so I I think if if
18:39they're saying that if the founders fund
18:40folks are saying that in terms of
18:42product and Technology I tend to agree
18:43like it's something is wrong if Chris
18:45Dixon is giving you your Tech ideas or
18:47product ideas um but but if I'm
18:49introducing you to a great executive
18:51like I think that's working well Chris
18:53why do you think the best Founders in
18:55the world pick you I have many thought
18:58good good choice my friend uh I have
19:00many thoughts uh from you know Ron com
19:03and Alex but why would you say the best
19:06Founders choose you again this is a
19:07business I think that primarily goes
19:09down to founder referencing um and so
19:13I'm not on those calls but I think
19:15ultimately um when you're competing over
19:19uh an investment like that that is the
19:20determining factor and so um what those
19:23folks say about you is very important um
19:26I would also say specific to blockchain
19:28crypto there's a lot of sensitivity
19:30around uh the fact that every you know
19:32we've now been through maybe four cycles
19:35that this is a bull market um and every
19:38time that there's a downturn kind of a
19:39lot of investors leave and that becomes
19:43like I've had a lot of you know that
19:45that becomes a big issue um and it's
19:47very important to Founders that you are
19:49high conviction and that that look that
19:50comes out again in founder referencing
19:52by the way that's not just my group at
19:54the firm that's throughout the firm I
19:55think there's a kind of a
19:56misunderstanding around this that I see
19:58articles that misunderstand it we our we
20:01we don't pivot at a6c like we've never
20:03pivoted um we have uh all you know we've
20:07done AI for 10 since I've been at the
20:08firm since 2013 we've done blockchain
20:10crypto consistently we've done bio we've
20:13done SAS we've done video games over
20:16time we've created verticals like as we
20:18think something's working we've spun out
20:21verticals like crypto games bio um but
20:25but you know we've stayed very high
20:27conviction in those areas um sometimes
20:29we're too early and you know and that
20:32that can be mean there's a challenging
20:34you know era but that's kind of just how
20:36we practice it and I think that's
20:37important to Founders like when they're
20:39you know they want to know that they're
20:40investors this is you mentioned Ron
20:42Conway you know who's a good friend he
20:44always says uh I I don't know if it came
20:46from him but I've heard him say it is
20:47you make your money in the in the bull
20:49market and your reputation in the bare
20:50Market Ron actually told me that you are
20:52a master of conviction and quote you
20:55have remained undeterred in the face of
20:57the most adverse
20:59conditions I mean it's a very nice thing
21:01to
21:02hear my question crazy high conviction
21:05when the world in the market tells you
21:08you are wrong how do you retain that
21:11uned conviction I think there's
21:14different ways to do this job um
21:17and and and different ways can work um
21:21and and I think a lot of people in the
21:22industry
21:24today uh they'll say things like I don't
21:27try to predict the future I just try to
21:28the Pres like or I look you know there's
21:30a lot of focus these days on metrics on
21:33um as you know AR and all these other
21:36kinds of things and there's a lot of
21:37kind of moving around to different areas
21:39um and that can that can work and it has
21:42worked for people um I have a different
21:44view which is I do try to predict the
21:45future um and I do and I spend a lot of
21:47time thinking about that and I um it's I
21:49think I think as I recall Peter teal I
21:51think in 0er to one he has this part
21:53about it about sort of a deterministic
21:55or indeterministic future like I fall in
21:57the deterministic camp like I think that
22:00you know people should I I'm not saying
22:01everyone should do this I the way I
22:03approach it is I I have a view of the
22:05future and I want to get to that that
22:07future and I spend a lot of time like if
22:11you know my book and other places you'll
22:13see this reading about the history of
22:14Technology trying to understand it um a
22:18lot of that is to try to understand how
22:19the future might play out is to is to
22:21look and and study the patterns and to
22:23study the um the kind of the underlying
22:25forces um I think that's you know when
22:28you have an incredibly complex system
22:30with economics and technology and people
22:33and all of these things it's very hard
22:35to kind of draw lines through charts I
22:37don't think that's a very good way to to
22:39view in the future I think a better way
22:40is to really understand the Dynamics and
22:42the historical forces and things like
22:44that so so that's my Approach and I've
22:46just spent so much time on it that I
22:48believe in it and that's why like I
22:50think we'll talk about my book like if
22:52you read that book that is a book of
22:53somebody who is I believe you know you
22:55can agree or disagree with it it's
22:56somebody who has spent a lot of time
22:57thinking about the internet and it has a
22:59lot of Frameworks for how these things
23:01play out and I believe in those
23:02Frameworks um and I think you know I
23:04like their setbacks like in in crypto
23:07the uh the stuff that happened two years
23:08ago with FTX and a bunch of scandals I
23:10think set back the space a couple you
23:12know maybe a couple years um and and you
23:15know that this is the kind of thing that
23:16your Frameworks can't can't help you
23:18with right there's just things in the
23:19world that happen these exogenous events
23:22um there's ways you can mitigate that
23:25kind of risk through for example
23:27companies having more cap you know and
23:29having longer runways and things but
23:30that anyway that's just my Approach and
23:31I and I believe in it and actually the
23:33the book which I you know I wrote that a
23:35part of the book was a writing the book
23:38was a test of conviction um I think if
23:40you can write something out in 230 pages
23:42in detail an argument like that helps
23:44you kind of vet that argument and and
23:47test and and kind of pressure test it
23:49we're going to get to the book I just
23:50want to ask on this Alex rmel told me
23:52that you are the master of strong
23:54opinions loosely held and so on this
23:57there's a point when you do let them
24:00go can you talk to me about when you
24:03have enough data to realize that you
24:05need to change your mind I mean I change
24:07my mind about little things all the time
24:10I mean I'm always I think of look I
24:11think of Venture
24:12as you know sort of this fox and
24:15Hedgehog the fox knows many things the
24:16Hedgehog one thing like Ventures the Fox
24:18Business I think like it's like you're
24:19you're constantly tuning your neural
24:21network um what are all the different
24:23things that go into decision- making and
24:25and it's very complex and there's many
24:27things and that's one it's sort of a it
24:29takes a long time I think to really get
24:31good at it and it's very important to
24:33have mentorship and other things because
24:34it's very hard to kind of get these
24:36neural network strain so I just want to
24:38make clear I'm constantly like there's
24:40lots of little things I think and
24:43specific you know this sector is not
24:45going to work this one is that kind of
24:46thing but on the big thing look I mean I
24:48guess I've if anything I've been
24:50emboldened on the big thing I mean I
24:51just every single thing I mean Mark
24:53Andre and I talk about this a lot like
24:55he he I think his phrase is there's no
24:56bad ideas there's only too early like I
24:59I've literally spent you know my entire
25:01internet first of all I've spent my
25:02entire internet career I started my
25:03internet career when the internet was
25:05kind of a joke people today cannot
25:07picture this it was and so you start
25:09your business you start your career in a
25:11highly contrarian area you know that
25:13that shapes you I then doubl down in the
25:15financial crisis and then you know and
25:17then did a whole bunch of you know
25:19things like blockchain and VR and other
25:21things over 10 years ago so I've just
25:24been used to this and I and I've and
25:25I've just kind of block out the nor
25:28noise and I don't really and I just look
25:30at the um the you know I just kind of
25:32try to look at the fundamentals I'm very
25:34careful about only about the information
25:36I consume and and really focusing on
25:38primary sources um I think that most uh
25:42I think for example on the crypto
25:43blockchain stuff like most mainstream
25:45news coverage is just factually
25:47Incorrect and I could go through with a
25:48red pen and show you all the mistakes
25:50and and that you know if you just read
25:52that and I assume that's probably the
25:54case for other areas it's the Murray
25:56Gilman thing you know the it it it's not
25:58just the area I know it's others and so
26:00like I I I talk to entrepreneurs all day
26:03I look at metrics I uh read technical
26:07Technical and product papers um and you
26:10know read a lot of books and history and
26:13and when you do that you know I don't
26:15know like it's it's a different set of
26:17inputs and and um I like I just haven't
26:20se I haven't seen a technology movement
26:24a software movement where a bunch of
26:26very smart people were in excited about
26:29it in my career that hasn't eventually
26:31worked um I started an AI company in
26:332008 and I if you told me and I sold it
26:35to eBay in 2011 machine learning company
26:37called hunch I I was obviously too early
26:40um but eventually it worked I think the
26:42interesting question to me is not
26:43whether something like crypto blockchain
26:45will work I don't think it's a question
26:46I think it's a question of the timing is
26:48a question um as it is as it was with AI
26:52and other things and but you can do a
26:53lot of work to try to to try to uh
26:55understand the timing too so speaking of
26:57the time and and moving more to crypto
27:00specifically you said to me before that
27:01big Tech is stifling the internet but
27:04blockchain networks can break the
27:05strangle hold again moving to very much
27:08today into the crypto space why is Big
27:11Tech first strangling the internet just
27:13so we have an element of causation yeah
27:16so and this is you know in my book my in
27:19Rew write own I go through in the first
27:21couple of chapters to try to sort of I
27:23guess the book I sort of think of the
27:24book as split between on the first half
27:27diagnos what happened so how did the
27:30internet go from an open and Democratic
27:32Le controlled system in the 9s to uh you
27:35know a internet that's essentially
27:37controlled by five companies today um
27:39the five you know the big five companies
27:41have 95% 5% plus of the traffic and the
27:43money and and I think that will that's
27:46you know AI is exciting as it is Will
27:48Will very likely um accelerate that
27:51consolidation because it rewards
27:52companies with large stores of data at
27:55Capital and so you know why did that
27:56happen I go through in detail and I
27:57think it it has to do my argument is you
28:00know we started off with the the
28:02internet is a network of networks so
28:04like the the you know there's the Bas
28:05layer the Internet Protocol that
28:07connects hardware and then we build
28:08networks on top and in the '90s the
28:10dominant networks were email and the web
28:12which are what I call protocol networks
28:13people call them protocols um they are
28:16networks that are that are more like you
28:17know they standards among a community
28:19and the and the network effects which is
28:22don't acre to a company they acre to the
28:24community and then in the 2000s there
28:26were a lot of great things that happened
28:27including kind of the democratization of
28:29the internet that went from hund couple
28:31hundred million to five billion people
28:33uh people got lots of great services but
28:35in the flip side we in that process we
28:38uh adopted um internet services that had
28:41a different architecture that were
28:43controlled by companies and not by
28:44communities and that sort of seemed fine
28:47in the in the 2000s and even the early
28:492010s when those companies acted in very
28:51open ways uh and supported you know
28:55allowed for creators and software
28:56developers and entrepreneurs to build
28:58businesses on top of them but they've
29:00since changed the way they're doing that
29:01and that's why I mean look look at
29:04consumer internet investing today there
29:05there there there's very few successful
29:09uh consumer internet companies the last
29:1010 years that's because you have this
29:12sort of choke hold with these five
29:13companies um and uh and so my my
29:17argument then is that what blockchains
29:19let you do is create a new wave of
29:21Internet services which have the
29:24societal benefits of those early
29:26protocol networks but a lot of sort of
29:28what I say is call the competitive
29:30advantages sort of the advanced
29:31functionality the ability to to to do a
29:34lot of financial things that uh make
29:37them competitive with these corporate
29:38networks so that's that's and and I I I
29:41think that's important because I what is
29:44that what does that look like in reality
29:45Chris sorry just to take it down to a
29:47more human level uh what does that
29:50actually look like in reality for these
29:52networks so for example I'll just give
29:54you an example we have a
29:56a it's a blockchainbased social network
29:59called forecaster is we're investors in
30:01and forecaster if you use it it you can
30:03download it and use it it's a you know
30:06it's got a couple hundred thousand
30:07active users today it's uh it will feel
30:10a lot like a Twitter or something you
30:12know it's the user experience everything
30:14else um the difference is that you're in
30:17on Twitter when I have C Dixon and I
30:19have an audience that's controlled by
30:21Twitter and they can change the
30:23algorithm they can change the economics
30:25they can you know change the rules they
30:28could remove me from the platform on
30:30forecaster I control my name and I
30:32control my audience much more the way
30:33like with an email list like you think
30:35about your you know you have your email
30:36list on substack you own that list if
30:38substack messes with you you can switch
30:40to another provider that's how
30:41forecaster works so there's many
30:42forecaster is the protocol and there's
30:44many different clients the same way with
30:46email and with web browsing you have
30:47many different clients and so it
30:49provides the kind of advanced
30:50functionality of social network that you
30:52want and all the features but it pushes
30:54control to the users um and and so they
30:58choice they can choose different
30:59software providers right that's just one
31:00example but there's a I think there's
31:02like there's you know we have dozens in
31:05our portfolio of new Services where the
31:08functionality is very Advanced um and
31:11modern but the uh but it has different
31:15economic and control properties because
31:18it shifts using blockchain shifts power
31:20to the edges of the network the users
31:22the creators and the software developers
31:23Chris you're a student of history and
31:25you mentioned the power of incumbents
31:27there
31:28I I'm I've never been more worried about
31:30the size of incumbents as we mentioned
31:32the size of their data is enormous the
31:35free cash flows of their businesses is
31:38enormous have incumbents ever been
31:41this dangerously large and is it not too
31:46big to usurp them with a foraster where
31:50or a hive mapper or you name any of your
31:52Innovations given the free cash flow
31:54machines that these businesses have so
31:56okay so I have a chat for those
31:58interested in the book on it's called
32:00software it's called Community created
32:01software where I kind of walk through
32:03this but if you look at the history of
32:05the technology industry it's basically
32:06moved to different layers of the
32:07competition has moved to different
32:08layers of the stack so you know prior to
32:11Microsoft the people sold the business
32:14of computing was to sell Hardware
32:15companies like IBM would sell mainframe
32:17computers they'd bundle it with software
32:18and services but the business was
32:19Hardware the the contrarian Innovative
32:22idea of Bill Gates was that software
32:24would be the next layer of value right
32:26and that was the idea behind Microsoft
32:27it turned out to be correct and so you
32:29know they made they they had very high
32:31cash flows very high margins um and and
32:34essentially began to commoditize the
32:36hardware layer you didn't care if you
32:38got compact or Dell as long as you had
32:39windows and office right and then the
32:42the what happened was open source
32:43software came along and particularly
32:45like Linux which is you know fast
32:48forward today by far the dominant
32:49operating system in the world and it
32:52turned out that that sort of a ragtag
32:54group of people could create a better
32:56operating system than this giant High
32:59cash flow company right and that and
33:02that that I think is a I think the rise
33:05of Open Source software I I I think is a
33:07very uh under appreciated thing it's the
33:11fact that you know every Android phone
33:13is running open source software a lot of
33:15your Apple computer is running it and
33:16certainly every backend system runs all
33:19all open source Stacks all the new
33:21devices do and this was a techn this was
33:23a movement that was a crazy leftwing
33:26political movement in the ' 80s and then
33:27dismissed in the 90s go go read 19 was
33:31it '98 was the doj case against
33:33Microsoft go read the documents like
33:34Linux doesn't occur it's all about sun
33:36and Java so like and yet that was when
33:39Linux was growing and so I I think that
33:41there's and you know there's a famous
33:42essay from the 9s Eric Rayman the
33:44cathedral in the bizar and he talks
33:45about these sort of different ways to
33:46make software like one is the cathedral
33:49is Microsoft it's this you know
33:50Cathedral the the product managers are
33:52the priests they you know they speak in
33:55secret incantations and then the bizarre
33:57is this you know this just like the the
34:00the you know this this C cacophonous
34:03Marketplace of you know of brilliant
34:06people and you know and crazy people and
34:09all the sort of things you get with the
34:10internet and Humanity but in the end you
34:12know his prediction and he was right is
34:14that the bizarre would win because you
34:15would have um just as Bill Joy famously
34:19said the co-founder of sun no matter how
34:21many smart people you have working for
34:22you that most of the smart people don't
34:24work for you or some I'm butchering it
34:25but most of the smart people work for
34:27for somebody else right um and and it's
34:30just you know if you just look at how
34:33many people at these big cashlow
34:35companies actually work on on Cutting
34:39Edge new products right I mean Google
34:41has 300,000 employees or something the
34:44vast majority are doing customer service
34:45product management they're maintaining
34:47old products they're doing bureaucratic
34:49you know PowerPoints arguing over
34:52politics I don't know what they do but
34:53like I bet you there's a thousand people
34:55that are really doing Cutting Edge new
34:57products for as big as these companies
34:59are and you know there's that many
35:02people working on ethereum that are that
35:03are very very smart and they have people
35:05from all over the world and they and so
35:07I just think I think this force of
35:09commun so blockchains are blockchains
35:13are to centralize Services as open
35:16source software was to centralize
35:18operating systems right like this is
35:19that's what that's what we're doing here
35:20we're trying to open the services layer
35:23of the internet and I think that that
35:27this histor Al this pendulum has swung
35:29back and forth between the cathedral and
35:31the Bazar and I think there's a lot of
35:33uh pent up energy to support the bizarre
35:36and I and I think that that as powerful
35:38these companies are that they have look
35:40and I can't predict the future you may
35:42be right maybe it's too late you know
35:43maybe maybe it's over um but I think
35:46there's a I think that there's a um a
35:49lot of strong forces that that will
35:52ultimately support a a more uh kind of
35:56community uh build bu internet services
35:59layer than we have today can I ask what
36:00do you think is the biggest challenge to
36:02the Next Generation community-built
36:03Services layer that we both want to see
36:06is it uh the talent acquisition from the
36:09community platforms is it the cash flow
36:12machines is it the distribution of the
36:14cash flow machines what are the biggest
36:16barriers that the community-led Next
36:19Generation has to break to enable or to
36:22be what it could be I think actually I
36:23think there's two things I think um so I
36:26would describe it so in the in the book
36:27I have this I talk about the what I call
36:29the computer in the casino and so this
36:30this idea is that around blockchains
36:33there are two communities that have
36:34developed the casino is a set of folks
36:37who are more interested in kind of the
36:38trading and gambling aspects of meme
36:41coins and you know and like I think you
36:44know to me this is where FTX and Luna
36:46and a bunch of these catastrophes kind
36:48of came out of that community and then
36:49the computer is people who like me view
36:51blockchains as a Computing movement I
36:53was just at eth Denver e ethereum has
36:56these series of community or organized
36:58conferences you go there and it's it's
37:00awesome it's like early Linux days or
37:02early like it's like you know thousands
37:04of like you know nerds talking about
37:08Computing and stuff like I love it um
37:10and that world is kind of ignored I
37:12think by I think most people that think
37:14about the blockchain world don't realize
37:15that exists how big it is and how Lively
37:17it is that's the world I'm part of
37:19that's what we invest in I think that so
37:21I I I think of it as there's the
37:23blockchain as a computer movement and
37:25and then we're on the one side we have
37:27have people that are I think co-opting
37:29that movement for this kind of Casino
37:31activities and on the other side we have
37:34you know basically the sort of the
37:37mainstream world the policy makers the
37:40media The Establishment all these forces
37:42that are against us um The Establishment
37:45banking you know the big Banks hate
37:47crypto the big tech companies hate
37:49crypto media seems to hate crypto um
37:52certain elements of the government seem
37:53to hate crypto so we've got that on one
37:55side and then we've got these kind of
37:56co-opts on the other side so um and and
37:59and and I think what's going on is that
38:01the reason those people don't like it is
38:03they see the casino side and they don't
38:05understand that there's two sides to it
38:06and that in in an Ideal World what we
38:09would do is uh come up with policy
38:12prescriptions and this is what we've
38:13been calling for for years long before
38:14FTX we've had stuff on our website we've
38:16been you know advocating for it is
38:18policy that encourages the Innovative
38:20use cases and discourages the harmful
38:24use cases right um in an Ideal World you
38:27that's what have is you'd have something
38:28that sort of reins in the speculation
38:30the casino stuff but allows somebody
38:31when they're building like a new social
38:33network using blockchains to have a path
38:35to be compliant instead what we have
38:36today is actually the opposite which is
38:38we actually have a regulatory system
38:40which uh so just to give you an example
38:43you can creating a meme coin you know
38:44memin mem coin is just an utterly stupid
38:47token uh has no Purpose By Design you
38:50can create a meme coin you can own 10%
38:52of it you can dump it and get rich and
38:56and as long as you you don't manipulate
38:57the markets and things like this
38:59basically that's legal um if you then
39:02take that Meme coin and try to build
39:03something useful like a game or a
39:05financial service that's when you get
39:06tripped up with Regulators today so we
39:08have a system now that is that that
39:10literally encourages the casino Behavior
39:13and discourages the productive use cases
39:16so you ask me what the biggest challenge
39:18is that that's the biggest challenge is
39:19that we we have this I think this
39:21harmful community on one side and then
39:23we have and then and then we have are
39:26trying and this is look this is why I
39:27wrote a book this is why a lot I'm I
39:28speak to a lot of people about this that
39:30we we you know it's not as sensible it
39:32it'd be as if we had an AI policy that
39:34allowed you to create you
39:36know dangerous bioweapons but didn't let
39:39you create customer service chat Bots
39:40like it's just opposite land of what we
39:42should be doing so Chris as I said
39:44everything is editable um and I asked
39:46from Pure Inquisition because I am naive
39:49as [Â __Â ] on this if I'm honest yeah why
39:51does everyone throw the accusation then
39:53against Andre and Krypto for pump and
39:56dump it's it's is factually incorrect so
39:59I I I don't know where that I mean where
40:01they get get their their alleged facts
40:03so first of all all of our funds are
40:0510-year Venture funds um we throughout
40:08the lifetime of the crypto funds we
40:10could we today hold 94% of our
40:12investments the length of the Lockup in
40:14some ways is limited by the market so
40:16we've been advocates in other words if
40:17we go too far the entrepreneurs won't
40:20work with us and so we've been we've
40:21been advocating for a long time uh for
40:24you know regulatory guard rails that
40:26make longer log UPS
40:27um I I don't understand where this comes
40:29from the the look you don't it doesn't
40:32uh you don't have to believe that we're
40:35good people or something but just look
40:36at all the charts look at the history of
40:38venture capital like selling your
40:40winners is the worst possible strategy
40:43and the things that aren't winners don't
40:45move the needle on funds like it's just
40:47not how Venture Capital works there's a
40:48J curve um and that holding things for a
40:51long time is is always you know if it's
40:55a growing Market that's that's you know
40:57that's growing in value which crypto has
41:00is always a good strategy so I yeah I
41:02don't know that's just misinformation
41:05can I ask you you mentioned that the
41:06kind of Casino like culture and you
41:08mentioned the word speculation is
41:10speculation bad always like can it not
41:13be an inroad for interest you know no I
41:16don't look I don't think speculation is
41:17always bad I think that I I would liken
41:20it to um so the housing market so so to
41:24me the point of a blockchain is to
41:25enable digital ownership and so like an
41:27nft is a um is a a digital object um and
41:32it can represent a name on The Social
41:34Network it can represent a game an
41:36object in a video game it can represent
41:38a piece of art it can represent whatever
41:39the Creator wants to represent um
41:43similar to the offline world like I
41:45think we'd all agree that home ownership
41:46is has a positive societal value right
41:48like it's psychologically personally
41:51rewarding to own a home and and and you
41:54know have a family and it uh I think we
41:58think societally like people that own
42:00homes are more likely to improve their
42:01homes they're more likely to contribute
42:02to their community so home ownership is
42:03a good thing we also have speculation
42:05around real estate people flip houses
42:08you
42:09know reats and all this other kind of
42:11stuff I don't think we think I I don't
42:13think the speculation is bad but I think
42:15that the point is home ownership and in
42:18fact speculation pays a purpose right
42:19you have price Discovery
42:21liquidity um and I think generally
42:23Society we allow specul I mean stock
42:25markets are similar right like the the
42:27purpose of a stock market is to
42:29productively allocate Capital to
42:30companies that are building products the
42:32byproduct is you have hedge funds and
42:34other folks like that they do provide
42:36liquidity and they play a service right
42:38I think the problem my issue with the
42:39casino community in around blockchains
42:42is the is the focus the focus should be
42:44on building useful services that um that
42:47enable digital ownership as a byproduct
42:50there should be markets around that and
42:51those Market should be regulated and
42:52there should be it should be tamped down
42:55the issue is you ask most people you
42:57read the media Etc like all of the focus
43:00is on the casino and that skews
43:03incorrectly the perception of the
43:05technology if you could make one change
43:07to the regulatory environment today what
43:09would it be I mean we have a bunch of
43:11specific you know proposals I think
43:13these these I think look I just think
43:15the main thing is that as an
43:16entrepreneur and this this ends up
43:18affecting our business
43:20because like as an entrepreneur you
43:22don't want gray
43:23area um gray if you're a you know top
43:27computer scientist and you're choosing
43:29what sector to go into and one sector
43:32there's gray area so there's some
43:33percent chance that no matter what you
43:34do you get a subpoena or
43:37something um a lot of people just won't
43:39do that and on the flip side with the
43:42gray area if you're a bad actor and you
43:46you know your other career choices are
43:48stealing money or something like
43:49creating a memec coin seems like a good
43:51idea right and so what happens with
43:53these gray are is is that this took me a
43:55while to appreciate I had to work in the
43:56space like I didn't understand how kind
43:58of policy worked and how policy
43:59interacted with entrepreneurship but I
44:01will say that my chief learning there is
44:02that gray areas um discourage good
44:06entrepreneurs and encourage Bad actors
44:08and so my main thing is we talk about
44:11this a lot like clarity now obviously we
44:12want not just CL like Clarity bright
44:15line rules here's what you do here's
44:16what you don't do and of course a
44:18pathway it could be a lot it could be a
44:20owner's pathway but a pathway to
44:22building these products um and so
44:25there's very specific proposals that you
44:27know that we you know that out there
44:29that we've been Advocates of that that
44:32that do that and Tamp down the
44:33speculation and allow for entrepreneurs
44:35to build products and have long lockups
44:37and disclosures and security Audits and
44:39like all these things that should be
44:40happening that that in a sensible policy
44:43environment would be happening just
44:45aren't happening today like you have
44:46these hacks and because there's no
44:47requirements around security audits like
44:49there should be requirements around that
44:51like we can't you know we can we can try
44:53to force it but if we go too far with
44:56entrepreneurs they won't work with like
44:57we can't we're not the referee right um
45:00and and you need you need a referee for
45:02some of these things can I ask a blunt
45:03one how would a trump Administration
45:05impact the regulatory environment for
45:07crypto I mean it's like it's complicated
45:09there's you know obviously three
45:10branches of government uh all matter the
45:13in fact a lot of it is playing out in
45:14courts right now and the so the
45:16Judiciary matters a lot I think
45:18ultimately this will get resolved I hope
45:20through Congressional legislation so
45:22that matters a lot um the the the
45:25executive branch matters too and who
45:27they pick look a lot of it just comes
45:28down to who they pick as the head of
45:29agencies and you could imagine I think
45:32that look generally Trump I don't know
45:35but like Republicans tend to skew more
45:37you know kind of pro business and so
45:40there's some but ultimately it really
45:41comes down to the specific people they
45:43choose to run to run these agencies
45:44Chris why did you decide to write the
45:46book now well I one is I needed time to
45:49write it and and you know after the sort
45:51of last downturn I had more time so I
45:54thought it was it was a good opportunity
45:56um but but really it was that I feel
45:59like the technology is very
46:01misunderstood and I wanted to have a
46:03single like a OneStop shop for somebody
46:06who wanted to understand it to be able
46:07to and to hear the other side of the
46:09story because I think they hear the
46:11negative side a lot and I wanted to
46:14provide the other side of the story and
46:15the full kind of treatment of it I often
46:17think like who's the customer for the
46:18book is this a net new entry to crypto
46:21is this an existing crypto Enthusiast
46:24for you writing it who was that customer
46:26in your mind I think of it as concentric
46:27circles there's the crypto Community
46:30which I think and you know I think has
46:31embraced it honestly in in a very nice
46:34way as sort of the book you know that
46:36the the best explainer um and then
46:39there's the next ring of the circle is
46:41all the people they know so you're
46:42joining coinbase and your family is like
46:45isn't that the thing with Dogecoin and
46:47you're like no family member it's
46:49actually more than that here's a book to
46:51read it right and and I and I'm very
46:53excited to say that that I've heard a
46:54lot of uh feedback that that's happen
46:57now so it's becoming that book that
46:58people kind of give to to let's call it
47:00crypto adjacent people right which
47:03there's a lot of there's you know
47:04hundreds of thousands of those people
47:05right there's there's 50,000 that work
47:08in the industry I don't know what the
47:09exact number is depending on how you
47:10count it because there a lot of you know
47:12non-official organizations and things
47:14but um and then if they all give it to
47:16five friends kind of thing and then and
47:17then look I also think there's a you
47:19know people that are Tech interested um
47:22but but not deep in these spaces who
47:24just want to understand something who
47:26are open-minded I'm sure there's a set
47:27of people who you know this is a
47:30controversial topic there's a set of
47:31people that won't read it or will you
47:32know that just won't won't can't
47:34possibly be um open-minded about it but
47:37I think there's a pretty big set of
47:38people that are open-minded who read
47:39books you know one thing about books I
47:41this is one thing I debated is when you
47:43actually look at the book sales figures
47:46of all books it's sort of surprising how
47:48small like when you're used to the
47:49Internet it's just small number like
47:50there's a kind of I don't know a million
47:52people that still read non-fiction books
47:54in the country or something I mean the
47:56best selling non-fiction book last year
47:57was 400,000 books or something and that
47:59was like a self-help book um so it's
48:02just it's just a smaller set of people
48:04so you're you know when you write a book
48:05you're kind of saying I want to it's a
48:06smaller set of people but I'm hoping you
48:09know they're important set of people
48:10that read books um I also the way the to
48:13the audience I also think about this
48:14which is like I had books that really
48:17influenced My Life um and and I imagine
48:21it would be cool if 10 years from now I
48:23meet somebody who's an entrepreneur
48:25who's done some really interesting stuff
48:26and the book was part of that so even
48:28though
48:29books uh they you know did you see U you
48:32know the the phrase Canon event did you
48:34spiderverse 2 it's become a meme so I
48:36think of it as like books like a blog
48:39post can reach you know millions of
48:41people a tweet can reach millions of
48:43people books reach a smaller gr group
48:44but they can be Canon events they can
48:46really affect people's lives um and so
48:48that that's so that's how I think of it
48:50both as like a way to explain it to the
48:51people that are adjacent um but also
48:54potentially a way to kind of influence
48:56entrepreneurs and particularly like with
48:57they talk about the computer and the
48:58casino I'm trying to influence those
48:59entrepreneurs to go towards the computer
49:01and like explain the whole thing to them
49:02and explain why this is the right way to
49:04this is the right path to take so I'm
49:05hoping to kind of nudge the industry in
49:07that direction Chris do you think brand
49:08is more important than ever in Venture
49:11gosh I don't know I I I don't think
49:14about I to be honest I I don't think
49:15about Venture as a category I mean I'm
49:18thinking about my day job um I think
49:20that the internet changed the way that
49:22information flowed for sure and I think
49:24probably unbundled a lot of brand in
49:26Adventure so it used to be like when I
49:28started off there were just these kind
49:29of like it was just these black boxes it
49:31was like Sequoia and Kleiner and I don't
49:34know benchmark and Excel and you'd hear
49:38rumors about who the people are you'd
49:39hear rumor literally like rumors about
49:41how term sheets work because there was
49:43no blogging about it there there weren't
49:44really books on it and so it's just sort
49:46of like this mysterious you know like
49:50thing that you uh didn't really
49:52understand but you but the firms carried
49:54a lot of weight right like the firm name
49:56was the thing like it was a big deal and
49:58you saw you read about the history and
49:59the companies they' funded and I think
50:01that's how fundraising worked too right
50:02with LPS they were like this is why and
50:05this is a lot of what's happened with
50:06the unbundling I was talking about
50:07before where you have the barbell and
50:10like the rise of seed funds right is if
50:12you're someone like you like the
50:15calculus has changed versus 20 years ago
50:17where then you had to join a big firm to
50:19raise money and now you don't because
50:21you you have your own brand right um and
50:23so I think the sort of unbundling of the
50:25branding where you can just build your
50:27brand with your podcast and with the
50:29other things you do and then of course
50:30over time with your investing and
50:32everything is very different the thing
50:34that I worry about honestly Chris is is
50:36the weight of capital is different you
50:38know F $5 million to me is very
50:41different to $5 million to you and Andre
50:44and so you can do a five on 25 with ease
50:47whereas for me that's a big bet in a
50:50early company with absolutely no
50:53traction and very little to go on when
50:56the weight of capital is different it
50:58makes it very hard for boutiques to
51:01survive I think yeah I think that I mean
51:03I guess the counter argument I hear that
51:08um you know they can't I will say an
51:12I'll speak for my own for for my own
51:14vertical here my own area which is we
51:17very we do very little seed investing um
51:19and the reason is uh we take conflicts
51:22very seriously meaning we invest in one
51:24company per category and um if you know
51:28if we go too early like that's sort of
51:30our bet in the category and so um I do
51:33very you know I so we do most of our
51:35stuff is like a true series a and not
51:37seed um that that I do for that reason
51:39and I think that and I try to work very
51:41hard to collaborate with seed funds and
51:42and sort of you know they they they go
51:44earlier and then um so that that's just
51:47speaking for myself I that's obviously
51:49not true throughout the industry um I
51:51think though that if you if you really
51:54sharpen your value proposition like why
51:56why do people people want you you know
51:57like if if you have a sharp value
51:59proposition as an early stage seed
52:01invest fund and you have you size your
52:03fund accordingly I think I I feel like I
52:06mean you mentioned Ron Conway like he
52:08he's he's able to you know operate his
52:10business through lots of different
52:12environments including the current one
52:14successfully and there are others who do
52:16but I think you probably the days of
52:18just being kind of like a helpful
52:20person probably over like you need a
52:24sharper a sh sharper way to kind of Help
52:27The Help the founders do you agree with
52:28if the cash is on the table you should
52:30take it because like you know if you
52:31have a two on 10 versus a five on 25
52:34it's a lot more money it's a much better
52:36price it's hard to argue and tell a
52:38Founder that no the two on 10 is better
52:40I think there's many honestly I think
52:42and maybe this sounds like I'm talking
52:43my book but I would say this even if I
52:45were a Founder like I think there's many
52:47factors this is a 10 this is a 10 plus
52:48year relationship with your investors um
52:51it's it's a long-term thing like
52:53obviously the dilution and everything
52:55matters and so you shouldn't be crazy
52:56and but you know I think and I think
52:59it's it's one it's an important factor
53:01but I also think that you know the way I
53:04think about it is you're building a
53:05company you're thinking about how do I
53:07kind of assemble an excellent team of
53:09Excellence both in my company and around
53:11my company and those some of those
53:14decisions are like in like who you take
53:16as investor is basically irreversible so
53:19I do think you should know who you're
53:21dealing with final one before we do a
53:22quick fire which is as part of that
53:24partnership often it comes with the
53:25board seat what are your biggest lessons
53:28on what it takes to be a great board
53:29member and how has your style of board
53:31membership changed over time as an
53:33investor yeah I think a lot of a lot of
53:36it is
53:37um is just being a good you know is is
53:40good governance and you know
53:44it's unfortunately I think it's
53:47relatively easy to be in the top
53:49quartile of that if you care about it if
53:51you're supportive in in multiple in both
53:55up cycles and down Cy Cycles like to
53:57your point earlier there's just a lot of
53:58stuff that goes on when the market drops
54:01um and I'm not just talking about crypto
54:02here I'm talking about regular Venture
54:04you know when the downturn happens
54:05because you just have individuals you
54:08have somebody who's early in their
54:09career Adventure they made three
54:10Investments they've told their Partners
54:12this is their hot company and now it's
54:14struggling um you know they're they're
54:16worried um this happens a lot um or
54:20maybe the fund isn't doing well and they
54:22need to recover money maybe they have a
54:24different I just had a situation where
54:26you you know the investors came in at a
54:28high valuation and they have a high
54:29preference stack and so like they would
54:32financially be better off if the company
54:34sold themselves right now versus the
54:36early stage investors because of the way
54:37preferences work you have different
54:39incentives you know you have people who
54:42micromanage um and try to you know board
54:45members who don't really have the
54:46expertise trying to give granular
54:48product advice you have so I think a lot
54:50I don't mean to sound negative but I do
54:51think a lot of it is just not not being
54:54bad it's like you're it's like helps a
54:57lot um caring being there for downturns
55:01um you know be being uh being like a a
55:06true kind of you know it's it's
55:08complicated when you're investor right
55:09because you were kind of wearing two
55:10hats you're wearing the board member hat
55:12and you're wearing the investor hat and
55:13so being able to sort of separate those
55:15yeah I I think that's a lot of it if you
55:16if you bring if you bring some detailed
55:18some expertise like operating expertise
55:20or financial expertise that's a bonus
55:21but I think just that alone is just an
55:23important thing what I described final
55:24final one before the quick fight do you
55:26enjoy enjoy the size and scale of Andre
55:28today it's very different to the firm
55:29that you joined 11 years ago um do you
55:33prefer it today than you did when it was
55:35much smaller and more Boutique and I'm
55:37sure less process driven and I will say
55:40first of all we you know we're very
55:41verticalized now so uh we're a big firm
55:44but you know I run a vertical and you
55:46know it's pretty independent um and
55:49that's important because I think we
55:50actually avoid a lot of the bureaucracy
55:52and other things you know we had a
55:53period where that that was a transition
55:55period where we weren't like that always
55:56but I think we're in a very good spot
55:58there I think it like it's for this is
55:59just a personal thing for me and this is
56:01I'm not saying this is right or wrong
56:03but at some point I I think my interest
56:05kind of shifted from just investing in
56:07startups to sort of having impact um I
56:09remember when I joined the firm in the
56:11beginning of or I was considering
56:13joining 2012 I joined beginning 2013
56:15thinking a lot about the fact that it
56:17was starting to really bug me that you
56:19know I'd put some money into an
56:20investment and they would either do well
56:23or not and I would think to myself did I
56:25actually have any impact um or if I
56:27didn't do it would somebody else have
56:28just put that an over subscriber around
56:30like someone else would have invested
56:31yeah maybe I gave some advice and this
56:33and that um and so is this is this how I
56:36want to is this what I want to do and so
56:38what really appealed to me why I joined
56:40is when I talked to Mark and Ben I was
56:41like look we just went through the the
56:42three the era of mobile social Cloud
56:45these are the three big Computing Trends
56:46I think there will be you know in the
56:48next 10 years we'll have another wave of
56:50multiple Computing Trends and I want to
56:53aggressively invest in those areas um
56:56and and I think there were a handful of
56:59organizations on in the world who at
57:02that time would have supported a plan
57:03like that and in noro was Mark and Ben
57:06were one of them right and that that's
57:07that's what that's what we've been doing
57:09I mean so that was the that just to go
57:10back that was my motivation and that's
57:11still very much my motivation today um
57:14and and I and I I think about it in
57:16terms of impact um obviously we you know
57:19we manage the fund and and you know
57:22there's all the kind of financial
57:23aspects of it but but for me that that's
57:26a lot of my motivation is not just kind
57:29of riding along but actually um having
57:32some influence I guess my question is
57:34how do you assess your own relationship
57:35to money and has that changed over time
57:38yeah I I mean I think that look I think
57:40the healthiest relationship if you're
57:43you know in the tech industry and lucky
57:45enough to be successful is to think of
57:48money mostly as capital um it's mostly
57:51as a way to invest in people and ideas
57:54that you believe in um and so you know
57:58Mark Andre and I have been for a long
58:00time both first individually and for the
58:02last seven years together investing in
58:04funds you know supporting new managers
58:06starting Venture funds we do other kind
58:08of things like we I don't know if you've
58:09seen this California forever this was
58:11something we did we it's a new city in
58:13Northern
58:14California that you know at the time
58:16didn't fit into the Venture fund model
58:19so we did that you know as a personal
58:20thing we did um later on it that changed
58:23and the firm did invest but um
58:26I support you know I'm very interested
58:29in sort of Internet Freedom blockchains
58:31open source software uh being able to
58:33support some of those causes so I think
58:36that's the like I think that's the
58:36healthiest relationship with money I've
58:38seen a lot of you know if you as you do
58:40this kind of job over time you see a lot
58:42of unhealthy relationships of money and
58:44you see people that kind of you know
58:45make money and end their career or get
58:48on the you know kind of hedonistic
58:51treadmill or something and like I don't
58:52know those are there's lots of unhealthy
58:54relationships I'll say that I think
58:56that's a healthy way to think about it
58:57it's just a resource to do to kind of do
59:00things that are that are help that help
59:02people you like or causes you like Chris
59:04we're going to do a quick fire around
59:05because otherwise I could talk to you
59:06all day one what have you changed your
59:08mind on in the last 12 months probably a
59:11lot of things um I think I you know one
59:14that might be interesting is I I you
59:17know covid I like a lot of like everyone
59:20I guess we went remote and I really
59:23wanted to believe this was the New World
59:25um and and all these kinds of you know
59:28tweet tweet threads that you read about
59:30how the world's changed and I and I
59:31wanted to believe that you know just
59:33that you could have now a globally
59:34distributed Workforce people could live
59:35wherever they want um I I've come to
59:38think it's especially in our business
59:40just doesn't work um and that you know
59:43we've now kind of returning our like at
59:45least on our investment team you know
59:47back in one place in New York
59:49um it's just you know the
59:53relationships um are very hard you know
59:55it's very in some ways I think what what
59:57works in remote teams is that you're you
59:59know you're kind of piggybacking off
01:00:00past relationships and it's very hard to
01:00:01build new relationships it's hard to
01:00:03sort of share knowledge this is quick
01:00:04fire around I'll try to I'll I'll stop
01:00:07um but that that's been something I
01:00:09think I've changed my mind what are you
01:00:10most concerned about in the world today
01:00:12Chris well the issue I spend the most
01:00:14time on that I'm concerned about is are
01:00:16these issues we're discussing I think
01:00:18soort I would call broadly internet
01:00:20Freedom uh little Tech versus big Tech I
01:00:23think that the outside world Pro would
01:00:26say that someone like me and you work in
01:00:28the tech industry I see myself as
01:00:29working on the behalf of sort of little
01:00:31Tech of startups I think that having a
01:00:34dynamic internet economy and software
01:00:36economy is good for the world I think
01:00:38it's good for Innovation I think it's
01:00:39good for a whole bunch of reasons and I
01:00:41think we're at serious risk of losing
01:00:43that and I think the two to me the two
01:00:44issues are I think that there's a real
01:00:47effort to ban open source Ai and there's
01:00:49a real effort to ban blockchains and I
01:00:50care a lot about those two issues and
01:00:52spend a lot of time thinking about that
01:00:53and working on that should we open
01:00:56Source by the way there's many other
01:00:58obviously issues in the world that are
01:00:59important I'm not but these are the ones
01:01:00that I personally feel like I can
01:01:02contribute to I've got to ask should
01:01:04open AI be open sourced I think everyone
01:01:06should choose their own strategy that's
01:01:08fine I just think that open source
01:01:10should be le Frontier open source model
01:01:12should be legal and I if you look at the
01:01:13Biden executive order it looks like
01:01:15you're going to have to register and
01:01:16there'll be export controls so I just
01:01:18think every every project should have a
01:01:19choice and they can do whatever they
01:01:21want um but but mol and you know I don't
01:01:24know all the other like llama with
01:01:26Facebook they should all be allowed to
01:01:28to open their code open their weights I
01:01:31think there's just a lot of crazy Panic
01:01:32right now about this and it's all it's
01:01:34going to do is further entrench the the
01:01:37big the obvious thing that's going to
01:01:38happen if they do put regulations around
01:01:40this is just further entrench the power
01:01:41of the big five companies what's the
01:01:43biggest lesson from working with Mark
01:01:44and Ben for over a decade yeah I mean so
01:01:48you know we used to uh for the first
01:01:50five or so years out of the firm we'd
01:01:52sit in this you know in the room and
01:01:55there were relative small number of us
01:01:56at the firm and just sit around and talk
01:01:58about mostly investing I mean like
01:02:00people entrepreneurs would come in and
01:02:01then we talk about it so I can't I mean
01:02:04it's be hard to enumerate all the things
01:02:06I've learned and hopefully I've taught
01:02:08them some things but mostly I've
01:02:09probably learned from them I mean we
01:02:10have a couple Frameworks I I like
01:02:13there's
01:02:14a you know Ben this is in our when you
01:02:17join the firm it's in our onboarding is
01:02:18first class business in a first class
01:02:20way and it's just sort of everything we
01:02:22do uh no matter how seemingly small it
01:02:25is needs to be conducted in sort of a
01:02:27high integrity way and I think I think
01:02:30if you talk to people who interact with
01:02:31our firm what regardless of who at the
01:02:33firm they'll you often hear will hear
01:02:35that like it's just everything is done
01:02:37in a very um sort of high integrity um
01:02:41way in which we and we really care about
01:02:42it and we care about very much about who
01:02:44we hire and the culture we create I
01:02:46think um we like to say invest in
01:02:47strength not lack of weakness um that
01:02:50that that applies both to you know
01:02:53portfolio like company investing but
01:02:55also hiring
01:02:56um so we try to find people that have
01:03:00some very special ability um often that
01:03:02is comes bundled with
01:03:05issues but like the issues are things
01:03:07that we can try to work through as
01:03:09opposed to you know looking for people
01:03:11that are kind of perfect and
01:03:12well-rounded and but but maybe not
01:03:15exceptional um I we're in the exception
01:03:17business venture capital is the
01:03:18exception business it's the exception
01:03:20business with investing it's the
01:03:21exception business with hiring like you
01:03:23can't lose sight of that and you have to
01:03:25always remind yourself of it Chris
01:03:27what's your biggest Miss and how did
01:03:29that impact your mindset I've had aot I
01:03:31mean everyone I think any I think it's
01:03:33important moment in your investing
01:03:34career to have like to like high
01:03:37conviction pass and then have it become
01:03:39a big thing and I everyone I know has
01:03:41had that happen um and then you're like
01:03:43oh wow I've got to go readjust my mental
01:03:46model I mean I had a lot I started
01:03:47investing in I guess it was 20067 when I
01:03:50sold my first company um and I well I
01:03:53remember one thing that was funny was um
01:03:55I so I my company was security company I
01:03:57sold a macafee and so one might think
01:03:59that I'm a knowledgeable about internet
01:04:01security and I remember like four years
01:04:04into it noticing that my best
01:04:06investments were non-security and my
01:04:08worst Investments were security and I
01:04:11sort of thought about why that is and I
01:04:13came to the conclusion it's because in
01:04:14the security ones I was
01:04:16over waiting the idea because I had a
01:04:20whole bunch of ideas I thought things
01:04:21should be built and someone came in that
01:04:22had one that matched one of those ideas
01:04:24and I was like okay here here's
01:04:25something money whereas in the
01:04:27non-security areas I was much more
01:04:29agnostic about the ideas and just sort
01:04:31of met the people and was like wow that
01:04:33person's really smart right and so my
01:04:36conclusion was you know I needed to
01:04:38significantly increase the kind of
01:04:40waiting I put on the on the people and I
01:04:43actually eventually developed kind of a
01:04:44methodology that I think about now which
01:04:46is there's a very interesting Balancing
01:04:47Act you do in Venture which
01:04:49is you do need to become an expert on
01:04:52something um like obviously I spend a
01:04:55lot of time on crypto and blockchains
01:04:56and I know a lot about it but you also
01:04:58have to be willing to throw out your
01:04:59expertise and just say like wow that
01:05:01person knows more than me that person's
01:05:02smarter than me um and so there's this
01:05:05kind of balancing act between prepared
01:05:07mind and
01:05:09humility um that that took me a long
01:05:11time to kind of get right I think um and
01:05:14so yeah that and that was through a
01:05:15series of misses a whole a whole bunch
01:05:16of stuff early on Final one for you
01:05:18Chris where do you want to be in 10
01:05:20years what do Chris Dixon in 203 I mean
01:05:23I'm I'm very focused on this mission of
01:05:26you know the the space I work in so I
01:05:28very much see myself focusing on that
01:05:30until the mission is done and that by
01:05:31that I mean it's sort of ped all these
01:05:33you know kind of growing pains um people
01:05:35often say ah four and a half billion
01:05:37it's too big a fund for the space why is
01:05:40like I mean when we announced it we had
01:05:41two there were two funds there was a
01:05:42growth there was a a you know a venture
01:05:45fund and a seed fund and the the and you
01:05:48know part of our Charter is we can
01:05:50invest in over-the-counter assets uh
01:05:52like Bitcoin ethereum the the market
01:05:55market cap of all the crypto assets
01:05:56today is something like two and a half
01:05:58trillion so I I it's you know if you
01:06:00just do the math um H having a a fund of
01:06:04that size it's a very small percentage
01:06:06of the market Chris listen I've wanted
01:06:08to do this for a long time I so
01:06:09appreciate you putting up with my
01:06:11flexible questions you've been fantastic
01:06:13so thank you so much thank you Harry
01:06:16yeah really appreciate it
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