00:01So when I looked through the
syllabus of this class and
00:06thought about what I, I could
possibly add that would be
00:10useful in addition to the
various skills.
00:12One of the things that I had
been thinking about had been,
00:15how do you think about
yourself as founder,
00:17how do you think about what
the skill set is?
00:19And what are the things that
you should be
00:22thinking about in terms of am
I ready, how do I get ready,
00:26is it the right thing for me?
00:27These sorts of things.
00:29So let's start with the
perception of what
00:34And classically, you know,
this tends to be Steve Jobs,
00:38Bill Gates, Elon Musk, Mark
Zuckerberg, Jeff Bezos.
00:43And it's an image of founder
as superwoman or superman
00:47right, who is, has this like
panopticon of skills, and
00:52I can use the word panopticon
because I'm here at Stanford.
00:59it's things like, I know how
to do product market fit.
01:02I'm great at product, I'm
great at strategy,
01:03I'm great at management, I can
fundraise.
01:05I can do all of these
different skills.
01:08And a part of what you're
looking for
01:09in a great founder, in the
kind of theory of
01:13the founder as superperson, is
I'm looking for
01:15someone who is awesome at all
these things.
01:17They are, they are, they are
well rounded,
01:19they are diverse, they can bat
on all skills.
01:23And you know, part of how I
found this kind of emphasized
01:27in my own, the beginning of my
own entrepreneurial journey,
01:31is I remember reading an
article that said,
01:33you know, Bill Gates, who is
smarter than Einstein, right?
01:36And you're like, well look,
01:38Bill Gates is really smart and
he's very accomplished.
01:41But I'm not quite sure smarter
than Einstein is actually
01:43a phrase that even Bill would
want to be actually next to.
01:47And it's partially because I
think it's this image of
01:50founder as superperson, which
is that a great founder is
01:53someone who can do anything,
you know,
01:55jump over tall tall buildings
in a single bound, you know,
01:59all of these sorts of things.
02:00And the reality, right, is the
founder is someone who
02:03deals with a ton of different
headaches.
02:05And no one is universally
super powered.
02:10you hope to have a couple of
super powers.
02:12Some things that are unique
edge to you.
02:14Some things that are unique to
02:15the problem that you are
trying to solve.
02:17Some things that may help you
give an edge because actually
02:20competitive differentiation
and
02:22competitive edge is super
important.
02:24But but it's not it's not
actually in fact a,
02:29a function of, of genius.
02:31And matter of fact frequently
it's very hard to
02:35tell the difference between
madness and
02:36genius, because usually it's
the results that play out.
02:39And sometimes when you're
dealing with
02:40uncertain environments, you
may even be genius and
02:43later be thought to be a mad
person.
02:45Or you may be a mad person and
you turn out to be lucky.
02:47And you're later thought to be
a genius.
02:48So it's, it's actually a kind
of challenging set of, like,
02:51how do you think about, you
know, these sets, you know,
02:54what is the whole set of
skills and
02:56what us mere mortals, you
know, come into this kind of
02:59battle what is the right way
to think about it?
03:02And so you know, when I
03:05thought about this question of
how is one a great founder.
03:09You know, part of what you get
to is.
03:10Oh, and actually, this is
probably the slide that for
03:14people on this, this may have
been a suboptimal choice for
03:17people on video, but it's
like,
03:19these are all skills that are
super important.
03:22These are all things that you
say, well, okay, this is,
03:24this is really, really
important to do and
03:26you must in fact actually do
this well, and
03:29it begins to look like a
superhuman task.
03:31And so what did, I decided to
take a,
03:33a subset of these and focused
on some of the,
03:37the interesting things to
think about,
03:40what is it that actually makes
a great founder?
03:41Because it's actually not that
you score ten out of ten on
03:44all these, you know, you're,
03:45you're the entrepreneurial
Olympiad.
03:48You, you are actually the best
at all of these things.
03:51So let's start with team.
03:54So one way to kind of, I
think, talk about
03:57exploding the kind of the myth
of the super founder is that
04:02actually in fact usually it's
best so have two or
04:04three people on a team rather
than a solar founder.
04:06Not to say solar founders
don't actually play out and
04:10they can successfully.
04:12But most often, two or three
people is actually in fact
04:16a much better, when I look at
these things as an investor,
04:18and I say, you know, what is a
good composition of
04:22a project and a, and founders
that are likely to succeed.
04:25It's usually there's two or
three of them, and
04:28the reasons are, because for
example we've already talked
04:30about the fact that there's
this very broad set of skills.
04:32There's this whole set of
question about how
04:35you adapt your company in
order to be successful, and
04:39if you actually have two or
three founders, you have,
04:42you have different skills, you
can compensate because,
04:44by the way, everyone has
weaknesses.
04:46You can compensate for each
other's weaknesses.
04:49You can in the diversity of
problems that you
04:52encounter as a founder that
you can actually attack them.
04:56So one of the things that I, I
suggest when you,
04:59when you look at essentially a
founding team is to
05:03have a real high preference
for having co-founders,
05:08having a high degree of trust
with those co-founders.
05:10Because one of the things, by
the way, part of the whole
05:13entrepreneurial thing is
there's lots of ways to die.
05:14One of the ways to die is you
get a year down the road with
05:17your co-founders and
05:18then you're going through a
messy divorce.
05:21that's a, that is not always
but frequently fatal.
05:27And so and then also the
diversity of the kind of
05:30tasks that you're trying to
do.
05:33>> Okay, yes, I was about to
say,
05:34that would be suboptimal from
the viewpoint of being able to
05:40The next thing is location.
05:43And so frequently I've heard,
told to me, it's like oh,
05:46Silicon Valley aggregates all
of this super talent,
05:52In terms of, like, what, what
actually in fact, it's, it's,
05:56the reason why Silicon Valley
startups are so successful is
06:00because all of these great
people immigration,
06:03which is hugely important for,
for talent and
06:04founders and everything else,
you know, emigrate here.
06:07And that's part of the reason.
06:08Now, it's actually, if you
think about it,
06:11from basic math, ne, even if
you take something that,
06:15that Silicon Valley is super
strong at, which is
06:18essentially software skills in
the last two decades.
06:22Not all of the great software
people move here.
06:25No, not all of 'em can move
here.
06:27them in various other parts of
the world.
06:30And, and so why do I put
choice of location as one of
06:32the things it comes down to,
thinking whether or
06:35not you're a great founder.
06:36Well, the reason is, is
because what fo,
06:39great founders do is seek the
networks that will be
06:42essential to their problem and
their task.
06:45And they realize that it isn't
just about, like,
06:48kind of like, I am super
person.
06:49I can do this anywhere.
06:51I can do this, you know, in,
06:52you know, the Antarctic, et
cetera.
06:55It's, in order to be
successful I have to go to
06:58where the strongest networks
are for the particular kind of
07:01problem or the particular kind
of thing that I'm doing.
07:04And Silicon Valley, by the
way,
07:05is super good at some kind of
tasks.
07:09Some places that you
essentially try to
07:13solve certain kinds of
problems.
07:15But it's not good at all of
them.
07:17Let me take, you know, kind of
two examples.
07:21I don't think Groupon could've
ever been founded here.
07:24Even though it's a software
product,
07:26it actually even generates a
network.
07:27Which, you know, obviously a
lot of the great networks
07:29are here and and uses a a kind
of Internet technology
07:34as a mobile product and
everything else, all of
07:36which we have a lot of skills
here in Silicon Valley and
07:39the networks are really good
for this.
07:41One of the things that's
central for GroupOn for
07:42it's early days was having
massive sales forces, and
07:46massive sales forces strengths
and
07:47weaknesses of networks tend to
go together.
07:50Silicon Valley tends to be
pretty adverse to plans that
07:56we're going to rent a 25 story
building and in 20 of
08:00those stories we're going to
have floors of sales people,
08:02and that's how we're going to
get out thing going.
08:04That kind of plan here tends
to not get a lot of interest,
08:08tends to get a lot of
criticism,
08:09tends to not have talent po-,
08:10aggregate to it, tends to have
financiers talk up of
08:13things like capital efficiency
and network effects and
08:16other kinds of things that
are, that are key here.
08:18And so it's actually not a
surprise that actually,
08:21in fact, Groupon require, was
required to be actually in
08:25Chicago, which is really good
at this.
08:27As a way of actually kind of
getting going, and showing
08:29that even software startups
can be in other places.
08:32But even if you begin to think
about you say,
08:34okay, well what kinds of, of,
of you know, other kinds of
08:38startups would someone be an
idiot to move here to do.
08:42Think of someone were doing a
fashion start up.
08:44Not fashion a la Poshmark
which is you know,
08:46a mobile marketplace et cetera
which are a bunch of things
08:50But like I'm develop,
08:51designing a new fashion
company and
08:53I'm going to come to silicon
valley to do it.
08:55That's actually not such a
great idea.
08:58Right not saying the fashion
company might be a great idea
09:01but you want the networks that
support what you're doing.
09:03And so part of the reason why
where I,
09:05where I locate my startup is a
test for thinking
09:08about am I a great founder is
because part of what happens
09:13when you're actually founding
a company is you're going,
09:16I will go to where it's
successful to this to do.
09:19To, to, to be because the
metaphor that I frequently use
09:22for entrepreneurship is
jumping off a cliff and
09:24assembling an airplane on the
way down,
09:25and the reason is because it's
hard, it has
09:28a quasi-mortal exit by which
you're default dead, and so
09:31you're taking every possible
chance to actually win.
09:36And so great founders go,
look,
09:37I'll move to what the network
is and that network is,
09:40you know, this graphic is
frequently Silicon Valley.
09:43But for, for text startups,
for mobile, for
09:46networks, for marketplaces,
you know,
09:48this is a really good place to
do it.
09:49For a bunch of other things
you
09:51should think about whether or
not it's a different location.
09:53Now here's something that, you
know,
09:56it's very in vogue, all right,
09:58very conventional, to say
you're contrarian these days.
10:02And so, let's talk a little
bit about what contrarianness
10:06actually in fact is.
10:08so, it's actually pretty easy
to be contrarian.
10:11It's hard to be contrarian and
right.
10:13And in particular, when you're
thinking about,
10:17is my idea contrarian or
contrarian enough.
10:20It's how does a smart person
actually disagree with
10:25Is, because if you can't think
of a smart person-
10:29Who isn't like ignorant or
just crazy or isn't, but
10:32is a smart person who is
somewhat expert in that so
10:34thinks that your idea has some
serious challenges,
10:37then it actually isn't
contrarian.
10:40Right?
So contrarian, and
10:41contrarian is also is always,
10:42actually this is one of the
things that Sam and
10:44I talked about at startup
school is contrarian is
10:47actually relative to an
audience, right?
10:50When you want to be, when
you're,
10:51when you're thinking about
contrarian in terms of,
10:54like a really good contrarian
idea is like okay,
10:56what would other, say it's
consumer Internet,
10:59good consumer Internet people
think is actually in
11:02fact not yet a good idea.
11:03And part of what you think
about contrarian is to say,
11:07okay, what's the way that what
do
11:12I know that other people don't
know?
11:15Because it isn't just that I'm
brilliant and
11:18other people aren't and
11:19that's reason why contrarian
thing is right.
11:21That's a very bad test.
11:22Right, it happened to be true.
11:23Of course, lightening could
also strike you in the field.
11:26You know, so, think a lot
about, like,
11:28what is that I know that other
people don't know?
11:30So, for example, in the very
early days of LinkedIn,
11:32part of what I advised all
founders to do was go talk to
11:35every smart person who will
talk to you and
11:38So, at LinkedIn I walked
around and
11:39said here's my idea, what do
you think?
11:41Two thirds or more of my
network, including some of
11:44the very, very smart people,
all thought I was nuts.
11:47And they reason why they
thought I was nuts was because
11:48they said well look, it's a
network product, it's only
11:50valuable with a bunch of
people in it, first person no
11:52value, invite second person,
second person first person,
11:54no value for either of them,
they already know each other.
11:57when do you actually begin to
deliver on your use case.
11:59Which is like 500k to a
million people.
12:03And so, you're never going to
get to size,
12:04you're never going to grow.
12:06Now what I knew that the
critique,
12:08the critics didn't know.
12:10Was that I could think of a
set of different ways by which
12:13people could say, look it's
pretty easy to say, look I
12:14believe in the vision of this,
or I think it's interesting,
12:16or I think a product like this
should exist, or
12:18I'm willing to play around
with it and I can use,
12:20leverage, those sets of
interests to grow the network,
12:23to get to enough size that you
could begin to deliver on
12:26the value propositions in
which LinkedIn had.
12:28And that was the specific
thing that I knew
12:31that the critics weren't
thinking about.
12:32And so when you think about
being contrarian, you have to
12:35think about how is it that
smart people disagree with me?
12:38They disagree with me from a
position of
12:42And there's something that I
know that they don't
12:44know that actually in fact
will play out to be true.
12:47Now, in this case, in general
as a, as a founder it's good
12:52to be contrarian in the real
sense and right.
12:55Now the other last part on the
contrariness is to think about
12:59there's a lot of different
ways to be contrarian.
13:01So for example, a frequent one
will be is like, oh yeah,
13:03that's a good small idea but
actually not so
13:07Or you know, actually in fact
you can assemble the talent or
13:11while most consumer internet
start ups tend to be like for
13:15example, this is another
LinkedIn example tend to be
13:17only successful through rocket
ships.
13:19Actually a gradual compounding
curve can actually be very,
13:24LinkedIn never had its rocket
ship moment.
13:26It was, it was kind of
compound year by year.
13:27But that in the consumer
internet,
13:29tends to be a atypical to the
pattern.
13:33So here you begin to get to a
bunch of sorts of
13:37problems that, essentially
founders run into,
13:42which is like, well should I
be doing the work or
13:44should be recruiting people
and delegating the work.
13:47And classically the answer to
this is,
13:49actually in fact you need to
do both.
13:51Right, and, in fact, not only
do you need to do both,
13:56you need to do sometimes one
at 100% and
13:58sometimes the other one at
100%.
14:00And sometimes, even though
this is not so
14:02good at math, both at 100%.
14:04And so what you'll see is,
this is actually classic
14:09when you begin thinking about
what is a great founder?
14:11Is you navigate what is
apparent paradoxes?
14:15So another one that I
frequently talk about is,
14:17you got to be both flexible
and persistent.
14:19And the reason for this is,
14:20entrepreneurs are frequently
given the advice to, you know,
14:25Stay firm against adversity.
14:27You know, realize that you,
you have this vision that
14:29is contrarian to what other
people think, and
14:31just ho, stay on track,
14:32get through the difficult
times, and get there.
14:34The other piece of advice
given with equal vigor is,
14:38listen to data, listen to
customers.
14:42Part of the thing this comes
out to meaning in terms of
14:45being a great founder is to
say well,
14:47when should I be persistent,
when should I be flexible?
14:51And the, the vehicle that I
most often use for
14:54this is you should have on a
project you're doing,
14:56like a company, an investment
thesis that essentially says
15:00why you think possibly
contrarian.
15:03Why you think this is a
potentially good idea.
15:06It should include what you
know that you
15:08think other people don't know
and then, as you're
15:11going into the battlefield,
you go is, you know, am I
15:14in fact increasing confidence
in my investment pieces or
15:18decreasing confidence in my
investment pieces?
15:20Because I've got increasing
confidence, then oh,
15:23stay on track, you know, be
persistent.
15:24And by the way, sometimes even
with adversity,
15:26you're confidence can, can
increase.
15:29If it's decreasing, that
doesn't mean jump out.
15:32PayPal, LinkedIn, Airbnb,
15:35a whole bunch of startups I've
been I've been a part of have
15:38had months where you were
like, oh my God this,
15:41why would did we ever think
this was a good idea it
15:43was kind of a valley of the
shadows moment.
15:45So like example, in PayPal it
was, you know,
15:47August 2000 we were burning
$12 million in one month,
15:49the expense curve was
exponentiating,
15:51we had no revenue, decrease in
confidence,
15:55however we say okay what we do
in order to fix that, and
15:57that gives you your immediate
action plan.
16:00Another one is, should you
have belief or
16:02should you have fear?
16:04Right, should you have, you
know,
16:05should you essentially go well
no I have this vision of
16:08the way the world should be
and
16:09I should ignore everything
else and
16:11I should just go at that.
16:12Well again, part of what being
a great founder is,
16:16is being both able to hold the
belief, to think about what it
16:20is you want to be doing and
want to, want to be going.
16:22But also be smart enough that
you're essentially listening
16:26to criticism, negative
feedback, competitive entries,
16:31where you're kind of going
okay,
16:32is this changing my investment
thesis?
16:34Is this changing what I'm
planning on doing?
16:36It doesn't mean you lose
confidence.
16:38You have the confidence, but
16:40you also essentially have the
peril.
16:43Again, in this kind of thing
of how do you put these two
16:46things together, should I
focus internally, build
16:48the product, ignore the world,
ignore competitors etc.,
16:51.
or should I focus externally?
16:53Should I be recruiting?
16:54Should I be meeting people?
16:55Should I be gathering network
intelligence?
16:58Again, the answer is both.
16:59And the reason why I'm
focusing on these kind of
17:01it's, it's both rather than
either or, is because part of
17:05what makes a great founder is
the ability to,
17:08to, to be flexible across
these lines.
17:11To sometimes be 90% one way,
17:13sometimes be 80% the other
way.
17:16Be executing the judgement on
17:17what is the current problem
look like.
17:20How is it that when I'm trying
to solve this,
17:23that I should say, this is
what we should be doing and
17:25how should I be dividing the
work?
17:27And part of, when you think
about these things, and
17:30you just say like this is
17:31another one that's kind of
classic is people say, well,.
17:33I'm completely motivated by
data.
17:34It's what customers say at the
user groups.
17:37a lot of entrepreneurial
methodologies lean,
17:40other kinds of things are
talked about is like,
17:42gather the data, be guided on
the data.
17:44Well actually in fact, data
only exists within
17:47a framework of the vision that
you're building to
17:48a hypothesis of where you're
moving to.
17:51And the data can even be
negative and
17:53you can think, well actually
in fact,
17:54this negative data means that
I need to change, or
17:57alter the way that I'm
thinking about something.
17:59But I actually keep on a
specific vision about
18:03And, and by the way,
18:03sometimes even when you have
that specific vision,
18:06you don't necessarily
actually, you never end up at
18:09that big vision that you were
thinking about.
18:10So for example, you know, at
PayPal we distributed these
18:14t-shirts that said the new
global world currency, right?
18:18Well actually in fact one of
the, the and I,
18:21and I know Peter's been here.
18:23One of the jokes I told Peter
is like well actually we do
18:25have this new world global
currency.
18:27What we're trading in is
dollars.
18:28You may have heard of it, it's
existed for a while.
18:31We're essentially a master
merchant for that.
18:34now, course this message is
what may be happening with
18:36BitCoin although, you know, is
a whole other topic there.
18:40However, the key thing is that
that vision of saying, we're
18:44creating a kind of a universal
network that allows anyone to,
18:48to pay, anyone to become a
merchant.
18:51To bring the electronics into
the speed of commerce at
18:54any business that, that is
being transacted.
18:56That vision kept at true north
by, we say well,
18:59first we think we're going to
have a banking model.
19:01Then we think we're going to
have, you know, a, a,
19:04Oh no, we're actually going to
have a master merchant model.
19:06And how does that actually
play out?
19:08So you're always combining the
vision and the data.
19:10And the data's within the
framework of, of a vision.
19:13And sometimes, of course, what
you learn changes your vision.
19:17Now, this is one of the ones I
actually think we,
19:20we, we saved this special
picture for
19:22one of the ones that I
actually think is quite key.
19:24Is that normally
entrepreneurs, founders,
19:28are thought about as having
like the risk takers, right?
19:33They're, they're, they, they,
whereas everyone else cowers
19:37in fear from this notion of
risk they boldly go out.
19:42You have to be a risk taker.
19:43You have to be thinking about
how do I
19:45make a really coherent bet on
risk because in fact,
19:49the only really big
opportunities, the only
19:51contrarian opportunities that
smart people disagree with you
19:53on happen to be ones that have
risk associated with them.
19:57On the other hand, part of the
skill set that when
20:00you're beginning to apply how
you think about risks as
20:04an entrepreneur is you're
beginning to
20:06think about like how do I take
intelligent risks.
20:08How do I take a focused risk
that if I'm right about that
20:11one thing then a bunch of
other things break my way.
20:14And once I start doing that, I
try to figure out how to
20:18make my, my, on shot
possibility as high as
20:21possible eg how do I minimize
other risks?
20:24How do I essentially take this
risk in an intelligent way
20:27that doesn't just go oh yeah
risk.
20:32And so this kind of combines
that, you know, this,
20:35this image which I think is
the best of the,
20:37of the, of, of the images we
found for
20:39this yet, is kind of the sense
of how to think about.
20:42Now, back to what I was saying
in terms of having
20:45an investment thesis, part of
having an investment thesis
20:48is, you chart it out, it's
kind of a list of bullets.
20:51You say, like for example,
20:53in early LinkedIn it was like
look everyone is actually
20:55going to be benefited by
public professional network.
20:58Everyone will realize
including companies that it's
21:00better to have it play out
this way the initial set of
21:03adoption will come from
essentially people who were
21:06like visualize the role, thus
were willing to play with it,
21:09and then eventually the mass
market will come on as
21:11they begin to have a network
that is
21:13already delivering a value
proposition to them.
21:17an investment thesis can look
like and then,
21:19you know, you've got economics
like initial recruiting and
21:22then, and then broadening and
other things.
21:24You have that investment
thesis and
21:26you say, is my investment
thesis increasing or
21:28decreasing in confidence?
21:30Do I think that the data I get
from the market,
21:32when I talk to smart people,
how does that,
21:35how does that change my
confidence in it?
21:39And this is actually how you
essentially minimize risk.
21:41So, for example, very early,
very early days in PayPal the,
21:47part of what happened is, they
said,
21:49okay well, we're going to do
cash on mobile phones.
21:52We'll do cash on Palm Pilots
because it's really easy.
21:55We actually realized that cash
on Palm Pilots wouldn't work
21:59even before we launched the
product.
22:01Because basically what
happened is,
22:02I went in and said to Max and
Peter.
22:04I said look here's our
challenge,
22:06our challenge is, we're
probably doesn't remember what
22:10They were like, like early
PDAs And so
22:16yeah we lived in what was Palm
Pilot central.
22:19And the whole use case case
was splitting dinner tab.
22:21And, how many people,
22:22everyone at the table would
have a PalmPilot Zero to
22:25one in every single
restaurant.
22:27So, you could even just by
thinking it through,
22:30you realize that the direction
you're on is
22:32going to hit a minefield and
you need to pivot, and
22:34that's when Max Legend came up
with the idea of saying,
22:37actually in fact we could
synch by emails,
22:39we could have email payments
as backbone of this, and
22:41we were like oh, that's a good
idea.
22:42that's what the whole thing
kind of pivoted into.
22:45And that's part of thinking
through minimizing the risks,
22:48as you're actually executing.
22:51Here's another one that's kind
of classic.
22:53Which is, well, should I have
this long term vision?
22:55Or should I be solving local,
near term problems?
22:58And again, the answer is both.
23:00It's these paradoxes and
23:01the question is, is you jump
between them.
23:03You should always have a long
term vision in mind because if
23:05you actually completely lose
your, your directions
23:08eventually you'll find
yourself in some field there's
23:10not a good path out of, but if
you're not focused on solving
23:14the problem that's immediately
in front of you, you're hosed.
23:18And so part of the the
question about how you
23:22put these things together is
you say, okay,
23:24short term what's the thing I
need to be doing today?
23:27Have I made progress today?
23:29have I made progress this
week?
23:30But is it largely on path?
23:32So, I'll give you an example
of how this plays out in
23:35terms of financing or in terms
of strategy.
23:37So people frequently think
product strategy is
23:39fundamental to how, start-ups.
23:43Like I have a have a product
idea, that's a thing,
23:46Actually in fact, the next
level down on
23:47strategy is usually a product
distribution.
23:49Whether it's consumer Internet
or or enterprise or
23:55Because actually in fact no
matter how good your
23:56product is, if it doesn't get
to customers you're hosed.
23:59So usually you have to have
product distribution as
24:01more fundamental than the
actually what the product is.
24:03And the one below it is
financing.
24:05And the reason why it's
financing is if you run out of
24:07money and the whole effort
goes away,
24:08even if you have a really good
idea it doesn't work.
24:11So frequently when you're
executing on a good
24:13strategy you're actually in
fact, when I'm raising money,
24:16this fundraising, I'm thinking
about the next fundraising.
24:19I'm thinking about how I'm set
up for it, I'm establishing
24:22relationships that would be
key to that and I'm,
24:25I'm not executing like oh, the
only thing that matters is I
24:27get to the next, is, is get to
the next fundraising because
24:30you have this business that
you're building.
24:31But I am thinking that as a
core strategy in
24:34terms of how I'm executing and
24:35frequently you're thinking
about okay, how does my
24:37product distribution work such
that the financing works well?
24:40And that's kind of how
24:41you architect these things
together.
24:44So how do you know if you
might be a great founder?
24:48Well, it's, you should have
some superpowers.
24:51It's generally speaking in
24:52software useful to be a good
product person.
24:55It's useful to have good
skills about kind of
24:57leadership of bringing
networks in,
24:59of persuading people.
25:00And it's useful to be able to,
25:04and this is kind of the most
fundamental,
25:06is recognize whether or not
you're on track or not.
25:09To have both that kind of
belief, but also
25:12paranoia about, am I tracking
against my investment thesis?
25:17And when you do that the right
way, and you're learning, and
25:20you're assembling people, and
25:21you're assembling networks
around you,
25:23that's generally speaking,
25:25how you end up being a great
founder.
25:27Now, classically and
25:30I deliberately put up five
white men, male pictures.
25:34you have a kind of a these are
the iconic founders.
25:38But in fact, founders can be
very diverse,
25:41they can be extraordinarily
talented at
25:45different areas because
there's different kinds of
25:48entrepreneurial companies,
there's different kinds of
25:51problems they're trying to
solve.
25:53And I don't just mean
diversity in terms of classic,
25:55you know, kind of gender,
race, et cetera.
25:57I, diversity in age, diversity
in experience.
26:00You know, Jack Baugh was a, a,
was a,
26:03a teacher before he got into
this.
26:05That's the kind of thing that
you can,
26:08that you should think about.
26:08And so the, the question is,
26:10is how you cross uneven
ground.
26:12How you assemble networks
around you.
26:15How you get people to assemble
this,
26:17it's a constantly changing
problem to face when you
26:21are trying to found a company.
26:23And so, I think that the thing
that I was trying
26:28to get people to think about
with this is to say,
26:31there's not one skill set.
26:33There's an ability to learn
and adapt,
26:35an ability to constantly have
a vision that's driving you,
26:39but to be taking input from
all sources and
26:42then to be cre, creating
networks around you,
26:44and that's essentially what
makes a great founder.
26:48do that while crossing uneven
ground in a fog.
26:51Which is kind of the, the,
the, the way that
26:54entrepreneurs, because you
don't really know like,
26:55did you always know this was
going to work?
26:57No.
Unless you are crazy.
27:01Sometimes crazy works.
27:03So with that I will now go to
a few questions.
27:06But it was kind of this mind
set of founders.
27:08Which is kind of key.
27:11And if there's no ques, oh,
here.
27:13>> I'm curious about how
Nathan, how you
27:17you targeted the earlier, or
you selected the guys for
27:21getting the right doctors who
knew would strengthen your
27:25investment thesis to really
help it take off because it
27:28seems like every start up is
faced with that.
27:31>> Yep.
>> That same challenge.
27:32>> So one of the really
fundamental things is to,
27:34is to think about product
distribution as key.
27:37And for LinkedIn, we had a
couple things going for us.
27:40So one, the web was boring in
2003.
27:42That basically what happened
is everyone had
27:46thought the consumer net was
over.
27:48And so people were doing clean
tag and
27:49enterprise software and
everything else.
27:51It's a much harder problem
now.
27:52because everyone thinks the
Internet and
27:53mobile is interesting.
27:54And so breaking through the
noise is really key.
27:57So the strategy we use
wouldn't work.
27:59sent out some invitations to a
group of people and then
28:02tuned the mechanism to have,
and did PR to get people.
28:05Like one of the decisions we
made early that was right was
28:07to say should we only allow it
as invite only?
28:10Or should we allow cold sign
ups?
28:11The reason we should allow
cold sign ups is
28:12because the people who are
super enthusiastic about this
28:15weren't necessarily the people
you know,
28:16so they would sign up and
spread it.
28:18That sort of thing were all
the kind of decisions we made.
28:21Now that challenge is much
harder because the challenge
28:24when you think about product
distribution is,
28:25it's how are you competing for
potential customers' or
28:28potential members time and
what do they think,
28:30what do they have to believe
in.
28:31Back in 2003 it was like
well,a professional network.
28:33That's potentially a good
idea, what the hell.
28:36I'll play with that.
28:36There's not a lot of other
things for me to look at.
28:38Today, there's tons of things
and so your strategy today,
28:42when you're looking at product
distribution,
28:43has to be, what is my really
decisive edge?
28:46What is the hack that I know
that other people don't know?
28:51>> Someone come to you,
28:55how do you tell
>> So
29:01how do I know someone's a good
founder or not?
29:04well, it's not I'm a huge
believer in references.
29:10Usually I only ever, actually
no.
29:12100% of the time in this case,
I only meet with someone when
29:16they come to me through a
reference.
29:17So one of the things, by the
way is,
29:18the thing is I, after this I
have to run off because I
29:21have a meeting I need to get
to.
29:22If you want to actually get
time and
29:24attention Lee, find a
reference.
29:25It's not a pitch to using
LinkedIn, it's a question of,
29:28this is how you sort out time.
29:30You can find out, like Sam
knows me.
29:32Lift up, throw Sam under the
bus.
29:36And so a reference to me is in
fact the way that I do this.
29:41And so for example, when I met
with the AirBnB guys.
29:44Part of the reason why I
29:45could interrupt them two
minutes into their pitch, and
29:48say, I'm going to make you an
offer to invest.
29:50I want to hear the rest of the
pitch,
29:52because I think what you're
doing here is,
29:53is, is magical and awesome.
29:55Was because I'd already had
references on them.
29:58Like that was only two
minutes,
29:58not even thirty minutes.
29:59Because I already knew about
them before coming in.
30:01And by the way, by and large
that's some version of
30:04that is true of most of the
great industries.
30:06And it's that, it's that
network that's really key.
30:09I think there was a question
over here too.
30:11Here.
>> So would you consider it
30:12intensity of insight to be a
strong signal for
30:17Density of insight is a strong
signal for
30:18great founders, can you say
another sentence?
30:20>> Being able to distill a
thesis out of or
30:24operate off a thesis.
30:26A deal of doubt to a concise
sentence.
30:29>> Well, I would definitely
say that the ability to
30:32say coherently what you're
targeting and
30:34to articulate something.
30:36That isn't trying to boil the
ocean or a Swiss army knife
30:39approach but is like one focus
like look if we're right about
30:41this than it works, that is
actually pretty important to
30:44be, to being able to judge a
founder because if
30:46you don't have that level of,
of clarity you're not going to
30:49be able to assemble the
network behind you.
30:51You're not going to be able to
get investors,
30:53you're not going to get
employees.
30:54You have to be able to
articulate a very
30:55clear mission about what
you're doing.
30:58And insight is helpful
although,
31:01a little bit of this depends
on the stage.
31:05It, it is always, if I find, I
find myself attracted to
31:07founders who've analyzed the
problem a good way,
31:10but, but frequently I've seen
great founders who do not
31:12present good analysis but
31:14have an instinct about what
they're doing.
31:16And so you more chart what
kind of,
31:17what's going on around them.
31:21>> When Lincoln had like five
years of like I guess
31:26Wrap up times, like what, what
can be going to keep like
31:31doubling down the original
>> Oh.
31:34So, how do I keep persistence
when,
31:35because, actually, LinkedIn
went through, you know,
31:39let's see, for those who
remember.
31:41We were treated as the little
alternative to Friendster,
31:47then to MySpace, then to
Facebook.
31:49Righ.
So, we had a lot of different,
31:51like we're the little tiny one
next to these
31:53respective giants each at the
time.
31:57Ultimately, for me, when I was
thinking about LinkedIn.
32:00the investment thesis as a
mechanism.
32:03I continue to believe the
action fact,
32:05the right economic system
design for
32:08every individual's life and
for
32:09organization's life is to have
public professional profiles.
32:13That world is the way the
world should be.
32:15Everyone is much better off
with it.
32:16And we are getting closer to
that than everyone else.
32:19It may be that it hasn't taken
off as fast as I'd like,
32:22it may be that the general
world is going,
32:24oh this social stuff is really
interesting.
32:27we could only get in the news
in the Fall and
32:30the Summer of 2003 by saying
we were Friendster but for
32:33business, which is completely,
like,
32:34nonsensical once you begin to
look at the thing.
32:37But it was like okay
32:38we'll cover you cause it's
friends but for business.
32:40And that was important to
begin to get people to
32:42pay attention to us.
32:43And so the confidence was that
world I still have
32:47confidence believe that it
should exist and
32:49no-one is getting closer to it
than we.
32:51It's taking us maybe longer
than I'd hoped to
32:54get there but that's okay.
32:58>> When you get it wrong, when
you meet a fund that you
33:00think is going to be really
good and.
33:02You know, seems to be a move
between these opposing forces.
33:05>> Yup.
>> And on paper it
33:06seems like they're going to go
the distance.
33:09What is it that makes you get
wrong about someone that
33:12looks good at first
observation?
33:14>> Well to some degree you can
only fully cross this kind of
33:17minefield by actually going
and doing it, right?
33:20So you can be wrong about your
hypothesis.
33:22The kinds of things that
frequently get you wrong,
33:24get wrong or when you think
that a person because they.
33:28Like for example, one of the
tests that I frequently use in
33:30interaction is I push on the
idea some, and
33:33what I'm looking for is both
flexibility and persistence.
33:36I'm looking for, no,
33:36I have conviction in what I'm
thinking and I'm arguing it,
33:39but I'm listening to what
you're saying and
33:41I'm adapting to the concerns
and
33:43whatnot of how you think about
that.
33:45Sometimes you'll find someone
who says, look, I've learned
33:47to mimic that behavior, so
I've learned to say for
33:50example I've learned to look,
look like I'm reasoning with
33:52you and I look like I'm, I'm
thinking about the challenge
33:54you're brining up but actually
in fact I'm ignoring you.
33:57And ignoring me that might be
fine.
33:59Right?
Ignoring the world in
34:00general is usually a disaster.
34:03And so those are the kind of
things that in the measurement
34:06you can see essentially
getting wrong.
34:09But usually, the kind of thing
like,
34:12most often, the kind of
reference questions I
34:16asked about founders is like
adaptability.
34:21Like one of the phrases that I
frequently look for
34:23is infinite learning curve.
34:25Because each entrepreneurial
pattern is, to some degree,
34:27unique and new, and can you
learn the new one?
34:30Huh, right, is a way of doing
it.
34:31And so like, does the learning
break down, or
34:36is there some major skill-set?
34:37Is there an ego issue that
gets in the way?
34:39Like, well, I must be the.
34:41Like, everyone, everyone must
adulate me,
34:43and that will cause you to,
34:45to behave wrongly in adapting
to the problem.
34:48Those kind of things.
34:49I think I have one last
question.
34:51The woman in the back?
34:52>> It's a great co-founding
team.
34:54And from your perspective,
what makes a good partnership
34:56when you're evaluating how to
be a great co-founder?
34:59>> Co-founding team,
35:00how to evaluate, and then how
to think about co-founders.
35:04So the first thing is,
35:05it's super important that you
collaborate really well.
35:08That was the kind of the point
I was making during the team,
35:11the initial part of that.
35:13Because, if you in fact, don't
have pretty good serious
35:16trust, you know, kind of a way
of.
35:23It's 150 that I'm supposed to
end, right?
35:26>> 205, man.
>> Oh 205, no, no, no, no I'll
35:28I, I, I misread the time.
35:29So, I will have time for more
questions, Sorry,
35:31I was trying to be time
>> So,
35:37okay, let me give a little bit
longer answer to this, then.
35:39So the key thing is when
you're thinking about founder,
35:42founder se, founders is,
35:43do you have a diversity of the
necessary strengths across
35:46the whole range of strengths
that would be useful?
35:49Frequently you need one
technical founder.
35:51At least frequently, you need
to have someone who is
35:53going to be dedicated to the
business side,
35:55fundraising, these sorts of
things.
35:57That's.
Kind of classically skill set.
35:59When you think about the two
to three.
36:01And usually, it's kind of some
composition across them.
36:05And that's kind of, like what
you think of as founders one
36:07when you're thinking about a
founding team when you
36:13get the next level deep.
36:15For example, one of the things
that
36:16people will classically tell
you is like for
36:18example don't invest in a
husband and wife team.
36:20And actually, that's look
like, that adds a little extra
36:24freight to it and everything
else cause, you know,
36:26there's personal dynamics also
upset what's going on.
36:29I actually think that what
you're looking for is do they
36:32collaborate well, do they help
each other get to truth.
36:36Okay, so for example I.
36:38Most heartened when I'm
talking to a team that when
36:41they're, when they're
reasoning to each other,
36:43they're not like oh,
36:44we're just all singing from
the same thing.
36:45It's like oh, well did you
think of this or
36:47what about this is a
challenge.
36:48Like you're navigating the
field of
36:49battle which has a bunch of
risks.
36:51Like for example, one of the
things that was pretty common
36:53in PayPal is Max who invented
the prod systems and
36:58everything else would
frequently come into
37:00Peter's office, Peter Thiel,
mass legend and say,
37:03look here is some things that
are going to kill us and
37:05let me focus you on them.
37:07Right so, it's not like we're
all just kind of saying,
37:09oh yes, we're all sitting here
We are adjusting to what is
37:12truth and what's the problem
we need to solve,
37:14what's the problem in the
short term,
37:15what's the problem in the long
term and
37:16how are we tackling it?
37:18And that composition within
the team that collective
37:20problem solving, that
collective learning is the
37:23kind of thing that actually
usually makes great teams.
37:27>> Yeah, thank you for this
wonderful lecture.
37:29I recall Peter Thiel says, we
all dream of flying cars, but
37:33we end up 140 characters.
37:36So let's ask you, you know,
how to identify.
37:40That we found this, you know
different sectors that someone
37:46then some of the, the common
computing or how to,
37:51how to poll outsiders or the
to for the combination.
37:55>> Yup.
>> Is there a common place or
37:57any
>> So different founders,
37:59different areas, how do you
identify them?
38:01The talk was aimed at kind of
what is unique about
38:04the mindset I think of
founders.
38:07That is a great founder across
all founders.
38:11That's part of what this was.
38:13An attempt to say look because
there are difference.
38:15So for example in software,
speed to market,
38:19speed to learning is really
key.
38:21In hardware, if you **** it
up, you're dead.
38:25So, accuracy really matters.
38:28So if you build and ship the
wrong thing, you're hosed.
38:32Generally speaking, as an
investor, and
38:35this is part of the reason why
a lot of investors, you know,
38:38have a certain set of things
that they then
38:40learn pretty well and try to
reapply because they try to
38:42understand a domain well
enough to be able to identify.
38:45Which of the founders in this
domain that really matter and
38:47if we're investing in this
domain,
38:48how do we do that well?
38:51And so there are attributes
that are unique per domain.
38:59you know, like if like one of
the classic ones is
39:03how good must you be at
operational efficiencies in
39:06terms of margins, cost
controls, etcetera.
39:09You're dealing in the worlds
of atoms including even in
39:11commerce, you've gotta be
really good at that.
39:13You're doing a digital game
like
39:16a Zinga-like startup doesn't
matter at all.
39:19Right.
So, and so you look for
39:21that kind of fix and
proclivities, and
39:22part of the beginning of this
is, it's not action fact that
39:25it's one person is good at
everything.
39:27I would be, like, one of the
funniest conversations I
39:29had with a guy, a friend of
mine who worked for
39:32me at my first start-up's
social net.
39:34He looked at me and he said,
39:36Reed, I would never hire you
to be a manager of McDonald's.
39:38I'm like yeah, I wouldn't
either.
39:40I'd be terrible at that.
39:42Right, and so it's, it's the
skill set that fits, but
39:45also the whole point of this
is actually being
39:47navigating a set of things
that look like paradoxes.
39:51Sometimes being heavy on one,
sometimes heavy on the other.
39:54And being, having the right
judgement at the moment in
39:56terms of what you're doing.
39:57And that's what tends to be
more universal.
40:02You mentioned that you're
taking longer then you'd like
40:06to see growing and speak a
little bit about when,
40:09how do you know whether or not
you should say and
40:12how do you know when to give
up on also maybe with respect
40:16to like your personalize life
and career goals.
40:19How it fits in
>> So
40:21the question is basically how
do you know when to pivot?
40:24Part of the reason why having
investment thesis and
40:28your confidence in your
investment thesis and
40:29being pretty clear on that is,
40:31generally speaking,the answer
that I give people is
40:34if you're confidence is
unmeasured for a fairly long
40:39time or is decreasing, cause
unmeasured for a fairly long
40:41time should be decreasing and
it's decreasing.
40:44And then you go into intense
mode where you're trying to
40:47figure out what kinds of
things you would do
40:49that would increase your
confidence.
40:51Right, and that's failing.
40:55That's a seriously good time
to think about pivoting Right.
41:00And you might have thesis on
can we raise money.
41:03You might have thesis on will,
what's the pattern by
41:07which the product distribution
and growth or, you know,
41:10viral limitation or SEO or
anything else will work.
41:13And just like, well, I tried
these things and
41:15this fourth thing doesn't seem
as good as these three and
41:17the next two things that I
think about.
41:19So even worse that begins to
decrease your confidence and
41:22that's when you should think
about pivoting.
41:23A frequent mistake when it
comes to pivoting is
41:25wait until you've essentially
been crashed into the wall and
41:28everything is dead and you
can't make any and you can't
41:31maneuver anymore and that's
you waited way too long.
41:34Now, in terms of personal
career goals and so
41:38forth, you know, part of the
thing that I
41:41would say that is one of the
things that I meant to talk to
41:45you during the slides that
since misread the time,
41:49I rushed through it a little
bit.
41:52One of the classic questions
is balance and
41:55I actually think founders have
no balance.
41:58Like one of the funniest
conversations I
42:00ever had was with a governor
of Colorado who was
42:03we're going to attract really
great entrepreneurs here
42:05because we have this balanced
lifestyle.
42:07Like, like literally if I ever
hear a founder talking about
42:10oh this is how I have a
balanced life and so.
42:13They're not committed to
winning, right?
42:15And so the only really great
founders are like,
42:18I am going to literally pour
everything into doing this.
42:21Now, it only may be for a
couple years.
42:22I may do this for a while,
then go do other things.
42:24But while I'm doing this, I am
unbalanced at this thing.
42:27It's not to say you don't take
breaks,
42:29not to say that you don't, you
know, go on dates or
42:32But you're super focused on
this,
42:34because it's really hard, and
there's lots of ways to die.
42:36And that's the reason why the
jumping off the cliff
42:38metaphor is one of the ones
that I classically use.
42:42>> So your definition of
sorry, depends on
42:45the idea of identifying
uncertain opportunities which
42:48others don't necessarily see.
42:51Overall how efficient do you
think the startup ecosystem is
42:54at identifying good
opportunities?
42:57>> So how good is the startup
ecosystem at
42:59identifying contrarian
opportunities?
43:03That's kind of challenge.
43:05Because the moment it
43:06kind of actually becomes in
vogue it's less contrarian.
43:13Sometimes because part of what
makes a great investor is
43:17an ability to go look I take
this radical shot and
43:20I take this radical shot.
43:22I take this radical shot and
there's enough people or
43:24investors there's usually
someone, if you can find your
43:27way to them, network finding
your way through the network.
43:30Sometimes difficult, tons of
noise,
43:32hard to get to the signal.
43:34On the other hand there's
sometimes things that
43:36are just kind of like, you
know, totally crazy.
43:38Like one of the funniest
things is,
43:40you know Benchmark was the
only one that would fund eBay.
43:44You know, if you talk to most
of the people in
43:46the Valley a year, 18 months
ago about BitCoin they
43:51would've told you like what?
43:53They have no idea what it is.
43:55it's still unclear how BitCoin
will play out, although,
43:58I think, the fact that there
will be a distributed
44:01trust system on cryptocurrency
is I think almost certainly
44:03going to exist in the world,
and the real question is,
44:05is BitCoin the first or last
cryptocurrency.
44:07First, there's new ones and
new features.
44:09Last because it's the one that
has
44:10network effects and is already
going.
44:15I think it's pretty good with
it.
44:17Frequently what happens is
people think
44:21they're contrarian because
they're doing something they
44:23think is a unique con-,
44:29I'll give you two examples and
hopefully the,
44:31the founders of these people
who sent me these cool,
44:34I get about 30 pictures sent
to me a day.
44:36That I don't basically don't
look at unless or
44:38if something in the title
makes me laugh.
44:40In which case I look at it
mostly as comedy.
44:42And I'll share two comedy
ones.
44:44One of them was wearable
diapers, which was the you
44:48know, you, you have the
computer monitoring you know.
44:51Whether or not the kid is you
know taking a pee or
44:54a poop and it lets you know,
and you're like.
44:56If you're that far away from
your child in this kind of
44:58thing, it's probably a bad
sign of other things.
45:00And then the other one was
kind of
45:03a customized e-commerce bongs.
45:06And your know like, oh, I've
got a contrarian idea.
45:09But not the right way.
45:12So, you know, but, so I think
generally speaking,
45:14the system's pretty good at
it.
45:17>> Do you find social net
ahead of time I guess.
45:21How do you think about
creating markets versus.
45:24>> Creating markets versus
discovering them?
45:26So this is actually, well,
it's a challenging question.
45:30The, the the, the frequent,
like, and there's a,
45:33and it's a good follow on the
contrarian thing,
45:35like frequently there's this
classic thing of,
45:38oh does the market exist yet?
45:39Is that because it's going to
be huge or nonexistent?
45:41The good news is, it's usually
one or the other.
45:44And so that makes going after
something that most people
45:47don't think is a market, but
45:48you have a reason to believe
it,
45:49is actually sometimes
frequently a good bet.
45:53However it can freq,
45:54it can sometimes completely
flame out.
45:56And one of the things you're
doing when you're testing your
45:58investment thesis is.
45:59What would lead me to
46:00think whether there was a
market there or not?
46:05at the beginning there are no
markets.
46:06And so it is of course
conceptually possible to
46:10People think that there's a
new need for
46:14the problem is how do you get
fast adoption if people don't
46:17even know that they want it as
a category.
46:19So they say, well, but people,
46:20they just realize, a classic
entrepreneurial misfire.
46:24A classic one is if people
just realize once it
46:27exists they'll realize they
really love it and
46:29they'll, they'll line up in
droves for it.
46:31Well, there's a few
entrepreneurs,
46:33Steve Jobs one of them, who
can do that.
46:35Most of the time it doesn't
work out that way, and so
46:37you have to say in your
investment thesis why is
46:41it that you think when you're
thinking about a market that
46:44isn't already existent.
46:46That, that you know that other
people don't know on
46:48the countrian basis that leads
you to
46:50think that market should
exist, right.
46:53And so for example, a micro
one with LinkedIn was,
46:56actually in fact the
classifieds means of
46:59recruiting was in fact an
exercise of newspapers,
47:03an exercise in information
age.
47:05And actually, recruiting
direct to people is part of
47:07what the networked age, and
the internet and
47:09that's actually, in fact, how
recruiting should go.
47:11Now, it was relatively easy to
validate that.
47:14that's the kind of thing where
you think about,
47:16there's potentially a new
market.
47:18>> Last question, boss.
47:19>> Yeah, last question.
47:20>> When do you know you've
known someone long enough to
47:22start a company in front of?
47:23One of the things Stan told us
a in the first semester was
47:27you someone you know for a but
when you guys started PayPal.
47:30Like, for example, how long
did you,
47:33it was a large group of people
so how do you know okay,
47:36I trust the people enough to
start a company.
47:39>> So the read I'm, I'm, I'm
repeating the question in
47:41part because we're, this is
record, recorded and
47:43everything else and I want to
make sure the people here it,
47:45but the question basically is
how do you know that you
47:47trust someone well enough to
be a cofounder.
47:49There's a whole bunch of
different variables that go
47:51into it and, look, it's one of
the risks that you take.
47:55And you kind of get to a
thesis of do I think that I
47:57know them well enough?
47:59Now I'll parallel one thing
that I think
48:04there's a parallel here that I
think is super useful.
48:06So one of the things I tell my
portfolio company CEOs or
48:09founders when there thinking
about hiring a CEO.
48:12Is I think that the only way
to do this is,
48:16when you get down to the
people that you thinking you
48:18may hire as a CEO, you spend
20 plus hours which them.
48:22Right, where you go into as
much depth in a conversation
48:25about anything you think is a
possible difference.
48:28Of opinion, belief, work
style, so
48:31you've identified all this up
front so that you're, you're,
48:35you're it's not that you have
a contract, it's not like,
48:37oh signing a contract, this is
how we do it.
48:40But we've established the
conversation.
48:41We've, we've gone all the
parameters,
48:43we've had a conversion about
what we might agree with or
48:47One of the things that I
frequently think is
48:49worth covering is almost like,
kind of, the divorce.
48:51Like, wa, why would we want to
divorce?
48:53Like, what would lead me to
say,
48:54this isn't working, right?
48:56And to cover that up front as
part of it.
48:58Because then, at that point,
48:59when you get into the field of
battle.
49:01Which is hugely stressful,
49:02you go through this valley
shadow of the moment.
49:04You've at least got the basis
of we already conversed about
49:07a wide variety of things we've
set up essentially some
49:09expectations about what, you
know how we might be planning
49:12together, and if it begins to
vary off that it's relatively
49:15easy to bring it up in a way
that you're problem solving.
49:18And that's the kind of thing
that I think you frequently,
49:21you should be fairly confident
that you
49:23have that level of trust.
49:25it's to have a set of robust
conversations.
49:28Such that, as like, like if
something comes up later,
49:30it's like, well, we talked
about this inversion.
49:32And we can, we can bring that
up, so.
49:35>> Thank you very much.
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