The Exercise Expert: This Popular Lifestyle Is Killing 1 Person Every 33 Seconds! Michael Easter
The Diary Of A CEO2023-11-02
The Diary Of A CEO#steven bartlett steve bartlett#podcast#the diary of a CEO podcast#life lessons#CEO#Michael Easter#addiction science#intermittent fasting#productivity#the lifestyle expert#exercise benefits
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💫 Short Summary
Modern society's emphasis on comfort and convenience has led to a rise in chronic diseases, such as heart disease and mental health issues. The mismatch between ancient evolutionary drives and modern environments results in negative health outcomes. By studying hunter-gatherer communities, valuable lessons about movement, activity, and food consumption can be learned to improve health. The importance of embracing short-term discomfort for long-term benefits and breaking out of the comfort crisis for healthier lives is emphasized. Additionally, the impact of status, loneliness, addiction, noise pollution, and the scarcity loop on human behavior and well-being is discussed.
✨ Highlights
📊 Transcript
✦
Importance of Embracing Discomfort for Long-Term Health.
02:41Modern society's focus on comfort and convenience has led to an increase in chronic diseases like heart disease and mental health issues.
Sedentary lifestyles, lack of physical activity, and overconsumption of food are major contributors to health problems.
Studying hunter-gatherer communities can provide valuable lessons on movement, activity, and food consumption for improving health.
Breaking out of the comfort crisis is necessary to lead healthier lives by prioritizing long-term benefits over short-term discomfort.
✦
The impact of diet, urban living, and noise pollution on heart health.
07:21A Bolivian tribe has the healthiest hearts due to their single-ingredient food diet of rice, potatoes, red meat, fish, nuts, fruits, and sugar.
Ultra-processed foods can lead to overeating and weight gain, contributing to heart disease.
Living in densely populated areas can lead to unhappiness as humans evolved in smaller groups.
Noise pollution has increased fourfold since humans became dominant, impacting overall well-being.
✦
The impact of excessive noise and loneliness on health and productivity.
16:47Studies have shown a link between high noise levels and chronic stress, leading to potential health issues such as heart disease.
Open plan offices can contribute to stress and decreased productivity compared to quiet environments.
Loneliness presents significant health risks, but being alone is different from feeling lonely.
Embracing solitude can result in personal growth and a deeper appreciation of social interactions.
✦
Reflection on personal struggles with addiction and the importance of long-term growth.
21:55Addiction can manifest in various forms beyond drugs and alcohol, highlighting the significance of addressing underlying issues.
Challenges of making better long-term decisions and battling with oneself are discussed.
Difficulty in finding moderation and insights on the captivating nature of slot machines are shared.
Mention of a research facility in Las Vegas focused on studying human behavior in relation to gambling.
✦
The scarcity loop is a three-part behavior loop involving opportunity, unpredictable rewards, and quick repeatability.
27:20Slot machines are designed to captivate users by utilizing the scarcity loop.
Research on pigeons and other animals showcases the evolutionary basis of the scarcity loop.
Near misses in slot machines play a crucial role in engaging individuals and compelling them to repeat the behavior.
The concept of the scarcity loop is leveraged in various aspects of modern life, including social media, dating apps, and financial platforms.
✦
Importance of studying status in psychology.
38:48Status has been taboo to discuss, but it is crucial to understand its impact.
People care about status, even if they deny it.
Status and influence historically provided survival advantages, such as reducing menial labor and increasing social opportunities.
✦
The rise in obesity is correlated with the invention of snacking in the 1970s, leading to increased caloric intake throughout the day.
42:55Ultra-processed snack foods are less filling per calorie, contributing to overeating.
Snack foods are designed with three key factors: value, variety, and velocity, to encourage consumption.
The faster people can consume a behavior or food, the more likely they are to repeat it.
This pattern is seen in both snacking habits and gambling behavior, where increased speed leads to higher rates of engagement.
✦
The most filling foods per calorie were plain boiled potatoes, plain white fish, and oatmeal.
46:30Foods like croissants and cookies were found to be the least filling due to their processing.
Choosing less processed foods can help with feeling full on fewer calories, aiding in weight loss or weight maintenance.
Fasting can be a useful weight control tool if aligned with personal goals.
Psychological perceptions play a key role in how tired we feel during exercise, emphasizing the importance of our relationship with discomfort.
✦
Importance of reframing situations to improve performance and outlook.
56:04Context and perspective can influence experiences, using examples like traveling to the Arctic and appreciating hot water on a plane.
Explanation of problem creep, where individuals constantly search for problems even when they are not present.
Studies on perception show how exposure to fewer negative stimuli does not always result in increased positivity.
Emphasis on the value of discomfort in gaining perspective, gratitude, and living well in the modern world.
✦
The importance of recognizing progress and improvements in today's world.
01:00:01Humans evolved to constantly look for problems as a survival advantage.
Advancements and increased wealth do not necessarily correlate with increased happiness levels.
Exercise, specifically rucking, is highlighted as a beneficial activity that combines cardio and weight training.
Rucking reduces the risk of injury and helps preserve muscle.
✦
Evolution of Human Physicality and Fitness
01:06:45Early humans were smaller and more active due to their hunter-gatherer lifestyle, requiring constant physical activity.
The shift to a sedentary lifestyle has impacted human fitness and physicality.
Exercise was not a concept for ancient societies as physical movement was part of daily tasks.
The importance of maintaining muscle mass and strength for longevity and health is emphasized.
✦
Benefits of outdoor exercise for brain health and well-being.
01:12:50Outdoor activities require cognitive engagement such as foot placement and pacing, leading to better brain health compared to indoor exercise.
Data analysis tools like Whoop can help individuals make positive lifestyle changes by understanding their health.
Choosing proper footwear is essential for strengthening feet and preventing injuries in the long run.
Sedentary lifestyles can result in muscle weakness and bodily pains due to lack of physical activity.
✦
Importance of incorporating small daily activities that add discomfort to improve health and prevent back pain.
01:20:16Emphasis on being a '2-center' by choosing the harder, more active option over the easier, comfortable one.
Choosing the harder option can lead to significant long-term benefits and overall well-being.
Psychological aspect of pushing through challenges and discomfort for personal growth and transformation.
✦
Importance of Challenging Beliefs
01:25:41Beliefs shape our lives and the need to challenge ourselves and step out of comfort zones.
Hero's journey and facing uncertainty lead to transformative power and personal growth.
Uber Labs example shows impact of uncertainty on experiences.
Embracing discomfort and uncertainty helps discover true capabilities and foster personal growth.
✦
Scarcity of resources can lead to increased creativity and innovation.
01:34:57Limited resources prompt people to generate innovative ideas with fewer resources.
Companies lacking resources often produce their best work out of necessity for creativity.
Maintaining a scarcity mindset post-success is crucial for continued innovation.
Global unhappiness is increasing, and the antidote is to focus on individual growth and becoming a "2% person."
✦
Importance of conscious decision-making in combatting short-term rewards.
01:41:28Emphasis on awareness in behaviors and decisions for a fulfilling life.
Discussion on the impact of corporations on human behavior and potential consequences of excessive regulation.
Recommendation to empower individuals to make informed choices and importance of self-awareness.
Positive influence of books in prompting personal growth and change.
✦
Importance of understanding brain function and discomfort awareness for mental well-being.
01:44:49Recognizing signs of needing to regain control and embracing discomfort in difficult situations.
Shopify recommended as a reliable commerce platform with user-friendly interface and comprehensive support.
Offer to trial Shopify for $1 to experience its capabilities and benefits.
00:002,000 heart disease deaths a year in
00:01Europe were due
00:03to the noise that people live in Jesus
00:06the world we live in now that is not how
00:08humans are designed to live Michael
00:10Easter bestselling author journalist
00:13professor of Psychiatry he's on a
00:15mission to save us from the comfort
00:16crisis Crisis crisis is it really a
00:19crisis as a species we evolve to do the
00:21easiest most comfortable thing but we
00:23eventually end up paying a price for it
00:25people are burned out stressed out more
00:27mental health problems and we're looking
00:28for the next pleasure and the industry
00:30really leans into this addiction for
00:32example slot machines once they got rid
00:34of handles and just put a spin button
00:35people went from playing 400 games in an
00:37hour to an average of 900 if you break
00:39that down by minute that's more than we
00:41blink and then we engineered movement
00:43out of our lives with our new job
00:44sitting in these chairs 8 hours a day
00:46now 2% of people take the stairs when
00:48there is also an escalator available and
00:50now we have heart disease the number one
00:52killer of humans globally this drive
00:54that we have to do the most comfortable
00:56thing is a problem as people experience
00:59fewer and fewer Vier problems we don't
01:01become more satisfied we simply start
01:03searching for the next problem really
01:05yes we become unhappier usage of the
01:07word love Haled between 1965 and 2015
01:11and negative words like hate increased
01:12we need to realize that it's your
01:14ancient brain working against you it's
01:16not your fault but it is your problem I
01:18want to take back control how do we
01:19break out of this I call this concept
01:21being a twcenter and if you apply this I
01:24guarantee you will end up healthier and
01:26learn what you're capable of the first
01:28step is
01:31quick one this is really really
01:32fascinating to me on the back end of our
01:34YouTube channel it says that
01:3769.9% of you that watch this channel
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02:06willing to make you do we have a
02:08[Music]
02:14deal Michael there's a quite obvious
02:17through line throughout your work so I
02:19wanted to ask you if you had to sort of
02:22encapsulate and summarize the mission
02:25that you're on with the work that you do
02:27the books that you write how would you
02:29arize that mission I think that in the
02:33context of today and the world we live
02:35in now you often have to embrace
02:39short-term discomfort to get a long-term
02:41benefit so I think the world is set up
02:42in a way now where things are
02:46easy things are more effortless and
02:49while that is good overall that's a
02:50result of progress I think by not having
02:54moments that press back against us and
02:56this could be everything from taking the
02:58stairs to um being willing to have hard
03:00conversations in your life all those
03:02sorts of things we lose something about
03:04being a human and lose um the things
03:07that keep us healthy and and happy I I
03:10would argue I argue in the comfort
03:11crisis that the things that most impact
03:13your day-to-day life today how you live
03:16everything from Cars uh climate control
03:20to the food system to on and on and on
03:24they're all relatively new in the grand
03:26scheme of time and space they're all new
03:27within the last 100 years I mean here's
03:29a great example
03:32uh digital media the average person
03:33today takes in 12 to 13 hours of digital
03:36media a day the radio was invented maybe
03:39100 years ago that is an insane shift in
03:41how people spend their time and
03:43attention every day and the Brain hasn't
03:47got up no no so we you know a lot of my
03:51work it looks at um looks takes an
03:54anthropological lens really it looks at
03:57how humans were shaped over time and how
03:59we have these adaptations that used to
04:02make sense in these environments where
04:04um what we needed to survive was scarce
04:07uh where the world was hard and
04:09uncomfortable and life took effort and
04:12those things kept us alive right uh but
04:14when you put us in a world where we've
04:16engineered the world to be kind of a lot
04:17easier in a lot of ways where we have an
04:19abundance of all these things that we're
04:21sort of built to Crave everything from
04:22food to stuff to information to even
04:25status and influence we now have an
04:27abundance of all those things and these
04:29sort of ancient drives we have this
04:31ancient Hardware it can backfire in
04:34these new environments so that's called
04:36an evolutionary mismatch what is the the
04:39modern symptoms of that evolutionary
04:41mismatch chronic diseases so for example
04:44you know people didn't really get heart
04:46disease until we started engineering uh
04:49movement out of our lives with our new
04:51jobs and um started eating more because
04:53we had a massive supply of food thanks
04:55to advances in agriculture um I think
04:58there's mental health issues too people
05:00are you know burned out um stressed out
05:03our Collective lack of Fitness I think
05:05too has led to a lot of health issues so
05:09for example um in the past our ancestors
05:12probably were about 14 times more
05:15physically active than us 14 times it's
05:18a crazy
05:20number so when they do uh when
05:23scientists do studies on Hunter gathers
05:25today which are a way to get get to the
05:27ideas of how humans used to live in the
05:29past um groups will generally walk more
05:32than 20,000 steps a day and that's just
05:34an average day now today the average
05:36American and I would assume probably the
05:38average brid as well we're probably um
05:40about in the same place walk anywhere
05:42from you know 4,000 to 5,000 steps a day
05:46that is just so little in the grand
05:47scheme of time and space we had to be
05:49active to to live and survive and um
05:52this drive that we have to do the next
05:54easiest most comfortable thing it often
05:56backfires today I imagine in preparation
06:00for your books you spend significant
06:02amount of time studying hunter gatherer
06:04communities and native tribes and things
06:07like that I'm so fascinated by that so
06:10fascinated because I think most of the
06:11answers we're in search of in our modern
06:14lives exist behind us instead of in
06:16front of us if that makes sense what
06:18have you learned about the differences
06:19in how they lived versus how we live now
06:23you talk there about movement and
06:25activity is there any other sort of
06:27really Central differences that
06:29pertinent to health outcomes yeah I mean
06:32well food is one of them right so as
06:35part of this new book scarcity
06:38brain when you uh when you look at the
06:41diseases that kill humans modern humans
06:43it's heart disease now the crazy thing
06:46about heart disease is that people also
06:48don't worry about it so when you look at
06:50what people worry is going to kill them
06:52it's uh cancer it's Terror attacks it's
06:56you know the crazy Neighbor Next Door
06:57with the gun it's all these whatever
06:59things and heart disease is way down the
07:00list but what actually kills people is
07:03heart disease full stop like that is the
07:05number one killer of humans globally
07:07especially if you live in a developed
07:08country so I have that in the back of my
07:10mind and I come across this paper this
07:13study and it found a tribe in Bolivia
07:16with the healthiest Hearts ever recorded
07:17by
07:18science the reason they don't seem to
07:21get uh heart disease as well as a lot of
07:23other chronic diseases that we get and
07:25that kill us for example they don't seem
07:27to get Alzheimer's um tracks what they
07:29eat and what they eat at some point in
07:33the day which is fascinating is that it
07:35is going to give the middle finger to
07:38every single fat diet you've heard of
07:40over the last 40 years so it's not
07:42necessarily low fat it's not low carb
07:45it's not vegan it's not paleo it's not
07:48ex all these different diets you've
07:49heard of right but the one commonality
07:52that all their food has is that it has
07:53just one ingredient so they're eating
07:56things like foods like rice they're
07:58eating potatoes they're eating red meat
08:00from um Amazonian deer they're eating a
08:03lot of fish they're eating nuts they're
08:04eating fruits they're eating they even
08:06eat sugar right like how many diets do
08:09we have where they're like if you eat a
08:10gram of sugar your kidneys are going to
08:12explode and you're going to die on the
08:14spot right of them and so for me the
08:17takeaway was that um when you look at
08:19what the average person in a developed
08:22uh country eats it's a lot of very Ultra
08:24processed foods so ultr processed foods
08:27are basically that's a euphemism for
08:29junk food it's what scientists use to
08:30describe junk food you know and it's
08:33stuff packed with all sorts of uh
08:35ingredients and triggers that lead us to
08:39overeat more or less so when you take a
08:43food through a ton of processing right
08:45like a Dorito you guys have those in the
08:47UK yeah we have Doritos oh thank
08:49God you concentrate the calories so one
08:52the food
08:53tastes way better than anything you'd
08:55find in the jungle like when I was
08:57living with these people I'm not going
08:58to lie the food was not that delicious
09:01it really wasn't so you you make the
09:03food taste a lot better and you also
09:04concentrate the calories the food
09:06becomes a lot easier to eat you can eat
09:08more faster so there's these interesting
09:10experiments at the NIH where they will
09:13lock people in a lab and they will give
09:16them a
09:19unprocessed diet and then for the next
09:21period of time they will give them an
09:23ultr processed diet a sort of junk food
09:25diet now everything about these diets is
09:26matched like the calories the the carbs
09:30the protein the fat and they say you
09:32know eat as much as you want till you're
09:33full full and when people eat the foods
09:36that have you know fewer ingredients the
09:38unprocessed Foods they end up eating 500
09:41fewer calories a day and they end up
09:43losing weight so that's just one example
09:46of how things have changed so in
09:48scarcity brain in particular you know
09:50I'm looking at
09:52how everything we needed to survive in
09:54the past was scarce and hard to find and
09:56so it made sense to when you got the
09:59opportunity to overdo those things
10:01whether it be food whether it be GA
10:03gathering possessions right tools
10:05whether it be trying to gain status over
10:07other people trying to gain influence
10:09whether it was information and now we
10:11have an abundance of all of those things
10:13right we've got grocery stores packed
10:15with thousands and thousands of foods on
10:18all sorts of Corners uh information
10:20think about the internet the average
10:21person in one day today sees more
10:24information than a person uh 700 years
10:27ago would have seen them their entire
10:29life Jesus entire life think of status
10:33and influence right it used to be that
10:35we would be in these uh tribes of people
10:37that would have maybe 150 people Max and
10:40it was very clear what your sort of rank
10:42was right because we got a leader we got
10:43some whatever but now you can blast out
10:46stuff about yourself to millions of
10:48people one time you talk in your work
10:52about I think that was in the first book
10:53The Comfort crisis about how kind of
10:56sort of adjacent to that being in large
10:58groups is has adverse consequences for
11:01our health and happiness this number 150
11:04people MH in an office space really made
11:07me consider a couple of decisions I've
11:09made what is the what is the basis for
11:12that and what is the the key takeaway so
11:15the number is called dunbar's number and
11:17it's by this researcher uh Robin Dunbar
11:20I hope I got his first name right the
11:21theory is that groups of people um as we
11:25evolved we probably didn't get over 150
11:27people now because of this today when we
11:31have groups of more than 150 people
11:33things get complicated right because
11:36once a group of people gets over 150 you
11:38got to remember a lot more
11:39interconnected relationships you got to
11:41remember a lot more names you got to
11:42remember a lot more faces you got to
11:44remember all these things and oh by the
11:45way now that we have this big group of
11:46people we need to establish laws we need
11:49to establish all these different things
11:51so it gets rather complex and the
11:54takeaway is that this seems to be a lot
11:57of work and stress for for most people
12:01and so living in environments where you
12:03are sort of jam-packed in with fewer
12:05people seems to make most people happier
12:08most of the time so you can sort of
12:10gauge happiness levels where people who
12:13live in the most densely packed cities
12:15tend to be on average uh most unhappy
12:18compared to people who live out in rural
12:20areas of course I'm not saying that
12:22everyone that lives in a densely packed
12:23city is unhappy of course I'm not I'm
12:25just saying on average you compare those
12:26two groups you're going to find that
12:28people who live in uh countrysides and
12:30they're less packed in with groups are
12:32going to be
12:33happier does noise matter noise of the
12:36environment yeah was part of the Comfort
12:38crisis The overarching Narrative of that
12:40book is I spent uh
12:4233 days in the Arctic and um the thing
12:47that I really didn't expect to happen so
12:49in that book I tell the story of my time
12:51in the Arctic and as I experience these
12:54different forms of discomfort that
12:56humans would have experienced in the
12:57past I sort of peel off and explain the
12:59science behind them and other travels I
13:01did about them so in the Arctic it was
13:06unbelievably silent there's no one
13:08around for hundreds of miles I mean one
13:11day we're you know you're standing there
13:13and um I hear
13:18this and I'm
13:21going the hell was that turns out it was
13:25my wristatch it is so silent up there
13:28that you're just standing and you just
13:29pick up the of the second hand which
13:32normally you would have to hold up right
13:36um and so I got curious about
13:39that and what was funny is that humans
13:42have increased the loudness of the world
13:45about fourfold so 100% yep fourfold
13:49since um before we you know became this
13:52species that overtook uh the planet is
13:55the estimate and people tend to get
13:58stressed out when when they're in lots
14:00of noise all the time so if you think
14:02about noise in the past um if you heard
14:04a loud noise it was probably
14:06danger it's a storm rolling in it's an
14:10animal that thinks you would be a
14:11delicious dinner and is letting out a
14:13roar right so we tend to become stressed
14:18when um we hear loud noises now in the
14:21past those were likely infrequent and
14:23today we kind of live in this lowgrade
14:26loudness that seems to um be associated
14:30with
14:31stress and even disease which is
14:34interesting yeah there's a uh there was
14:35this interesting wo study where they
14:38estimated that 2,000 heart attack deaths
14:41a year or heart disease deaths a year in
14:43Europe were due to how loud the the
14:46noise that people live in and that's
14:47simply because um loudness increases
14:50stress and stress is a key factor for
14:52heart
14:53disease it makes me think about the way
14:55we've kind of designed our professional
14:56and personal environments you know like
14:58open plan offices and I mean all my
15:00offices around the world have always
15:01been open plan in your first but Comfort
15:03crisis I think it's chapter 13 where you
15:05start to talk about how that is both bad
15:07for people's anxiety depression and
15:10productivity yeah well and it's funny
15:12because um what I found fascinating
15:15about the studies on that is most people
15:17don't realize that being in a lot of
15:19noise impacts their productivity um but
15:22when you look at what they actually
15:23produce people tend to produce more
15:25better work when they're in more silent
15:27environments
15:29there was one study where one group
15:30worked in a quiet office and one worked
15:32in an open plan office the open plan
15:34office was 50% louder the workers in the
15:36open plan office so they didn't feel any
15:38more stress but stress monitors found
15:40that they were in fact more stressed and
15:41less productive yeah chapter 13 of your
15:44book I'm sorry that I just I was like my
15:47team are going to hear this we've just
15:49had we've just approved the designs for
15:51for our new HQ in the middle of London
15:53well let's uh you know call off the
15:55build yeah Jesus take a look at the
15:57blueprints after this and that's what
15:59staggering anti- anxiety medication use
16:01Rises a relative 28% for every 10 deel
16:04increase in sound in neighborhood in
16:07neighborhood experiences and people who
16:08live nearer to loud roads are 24% more
16:11likely to be depressed yeah it's uh it's
16:14definitely surprising right because we
16:15do live in a lot of noise and another
16:17thing that was interesting while I was
16:18reporting that section on um noise and
16:21sound and how that's changed is that
16:23most people today say that they feel at
16:26first uncomfortable in silence totally
16:29me yeah I think everyone's like that I
16:31can't even sleep without something
16:32playing right so this is a this was a
16:36study in Australia and it was rather
16:37informal but
16:39um yeah people uh would you know take
16:42some time to just be in complete silence
16:43and they all wrote you know At first I
16:45felt really uncomfortable through that
16:47but um on the other side of that they
16:49started to feel better and I think that
16:51that's kind of um a framework for a lot
16:53of things in life it's uncomfortable at
16:55first but when you go through that you
16:58come out of on the other side of it and
17:00you feel like you've improved and you
17:01probably have improved being alone and
17:04being lonely you s as being two very
17:06different things loneliness seems to
17:09be awful for our healths and we're
17:11getting increasingly more lonely decade
17:14by decade but being alone is what's the
17:16distinction between the two how do you
17:18define the difference yeah so lonely to
17:20me is I want to be with others but I
17:23don't have anyone to be with right I
17:25just don't have that resource in other
17:27people being alone is different it's
17:29choosing to take time to be with
17:31yourself and see what you can learn from
17:34that and I think too that there's real
17:36there is some interesting research um on
17:38people who just prefer to be alone they
17:40just like Solitude and turns out that
17:44they're just as happy as super social
17:46people there's a little bit of
17:47individual variation now of course these
17:49people will have you know some people in
17:51their life that they can count on I
17:52think that that is absolutely important
17:54but I do think we've shifted in the last
17:57say 15 20 years where the message is
18:02really you need a bunch of friends to be
18:04happy you absolutely need to be as
18:07social as possible and while I'm not
18:10saying that don't be social that is not
18:12my message at all I am saying that it's
18:14also worth um taking time to be alone
18:17sometimes and seeing what you can learn
18:18from that because I think it does help
18:20you better appreciate those social
18:22moments like for me I never appreciate
18:25my friends more when I've gone off on
18:28some reporting trip into a strange Place
18:30completely alone for a month or whatever
18:33it might be and then come back and I'm
18:34like oh man I really appreciate being
18:36around these people and I don't take
18:37that time for
18:38granted being lonely increases your
18:40chance of dying in the next seven years
18:42by 26% being lonely can shorten your
18:44life by 15 years staggering stats when
18:47you think about the trajectory of travel
18:49that Society is on with machines and
18:51artificial intelligence and all of these
18:53things um it's hard to find it's
18:56understandable how it might be hard for
18:57someone to find mind hope that the stats
19:01are going to turn around and go the
19:02other way as it relates to loneliness
19:04are you concerned at all that the
19:06invention of AI and the speed in which
19:09we're seeing it proliferate is going to
19:11lead to you know some people say sex
19:12robots
19:13and and all of these kinds of things I
19:16mean I read an article the other day
19:17where um a woman is a virtual boyfriend
19:21to hundreds of men and they're paying
19:24because they're using generative AI to
19:25have like seemingly intimate
19:27conversations with her
19:29and the fact that there's demand for
19:30that is a signal of not great things
19:33yeah I think we need I think we
19:36need I mean so then you ask like okay
19:39well why are why are these people doing
19:40that um I think part of it is because
19:43having to go out and interact with
19:44another human is that you don't know is
19:47a little bit awkward and challenging at
19:48first and so to me I mean a big message
19:51of my work is that you have to do
19:53challenging things in order to grow as a
19:55human cuz I guarantee that your
19:57relationship with an actual person is
19:59going to be more rewarding in the Long
20:01Haul than the you know the AI bot or
20:04whatever whatever they call them but it
20:06is hard to go out in public and I think
20:08that we live in a world where you can
20:10you can go okay I'm going to avoid the
20:13hard thing because I can get this thing
20:14that's easier even though it's not going
20:16to be as good for me in the Long
20:19Haul why you I always think when people
20:23commit themselves to writing books
20:25because books are painful processes I
20:27mean it's nice when it's out but it's
20:28not necessarily enjoyable when you're
20:30having to condense your thoughts and put
20:32it pen to paper but there is correlation
20:35and there is a through line between
20:36these two subject matters so it makes me
20:37beg the question why did you of all the
20:39things you could have taken an interest
20:41in or become curious about why did
20:44Michael have a Natural Curiosity towards
20:46this subject matter yeah that's a great
20:49question um I think a lot of it for me
20:54is how I grew up um I grew up with a an
20:59only child of a single parent who had to
21:01travel a lot when I was in my 20s I also
21:05got sober that was not an easy thing
21:07right I was choosing this short-term
21:09relief of alcohol at the expense of
21:11long-term growth and meaning what was
21:13the cost of that oh I mean you're just
21:16an internal mess you know so my I was I
21:19wasn't an interesting case but I I
21:21wasn't the case that most people would
21:23think of in the sense that my life was
21:25totally fine on paper I had a job a
21:28magazine everyone knew you know I had a
21:30house I had a car that sort of thing but
21:33uh internally I was just a total mess
21:35and it's kind of like the walls were
21:36cing in and I tried to quit drinking a
21:39lot of times and finally it just
21:42occurred to me um like this isn't going
21:44to be easy and if you don't do this
21:46you're probably going to die early by
21:48the way and um I realized I had to just
21:52rip off the Band-Aid and do the hard
21:53thing and once I went through that
21:56process my life improved Mo across the
21:58board when you said that internally you
22:01were a
22:03mess how do I gain color on what that
22:06means in reality so that people that are
22:08listening who might be internally a mess
22:11will have a bridge to be able to relate
22:12to what you're saying there oh well so
22:16addiction is really um consistently
22:18choosing a short-term reward at the
22:20expense of long-term growth I knew that
22:22my drinking was causing um problems in
22:24my life across the board I mean like you
22:27know I had less money it was eating into
22:28my bank account it was kind of it was
22:30messing with some of my
22:32relationships um I would never feel good
22:35the 3 days after I would go out on a
22:36bendor right I would just be like a a
22:39mess and um yet I couldn't stop I mean
22:42that's the key right as you go I know
22:44this is screwing me up I know it and
22:47then I tell myself you know what maybe
22:49it'll be different this time like I'm
22:51just G to have one or two drinks this
22:53time and then you have one or two and
22:54you go well if one or two is this good
22:57what would like 10 more be like right
22:59and something shifts in your head um so
23:01it's choosing that short-term um relief
23:04at the expense of long-term growth and
23:05that is a tough cycle I mean I write
23:07about it in scarcity brain about um
23:11addiction and how we think about it
23:12because I think that another thing
23:14that's interesting about today is that
23:16um you know when people hear the word
23:18Addiction they automatically think drugs
23:19they automatically think alcohol but
23:22really if addiction is choosing the
23:23short-term reward at the expense of
23:25long-term growth it really falls on this
23:27big spect
23:28there's plenty of things we all do every
23:30day that that fall into that but it's
23:32just how bad is it hurting you to what
23:35extent um and even the you know the dsm5
23:39which is sort of like the Bible of
23:40psychiatrists the one that they
23:42use it basically puts Addiction on a
23:44spectrum it's like a here's like 11
23:46questions about addiction and if you say
23:49yes to you know four of them then you
23:50got a mild case if you say yes to six of
23:53them you got a medium case and if you
23:54say yes to seven or more you got a
23:58extreme case and like when you read that
24:00you could plug in a bunch of different
24:02behaviors that people do all the time
24:04and go oh I guess I am kind of like
24:06mildly addicted to insert whatever app
24:08you spend way too much time on and um I
24:12think that getting out of that is
24:14ultimately hard and ultimately I I also
24:16see addiction as kind of a symptom of
24:18some underlying thing so for me I think
24:20the reason that I drank is because I had
24:22an office job that I found a little bit
24:25boring um it was rather sanitary
24:28rule-based and as I mentioned before I'm
24:30a person who I do well on Extreme
24:32experiences right and when I would drink
24:35alcohol would allow me to be sort of
24:36wild and free in this world that's
24:38become increasingly sanitary
24:40increasingly rule-based whatever but
24:42that's like not a good way to find that
24:44there's a lot more productive ways to
24:45find that and I can find that now by
24:47applying it to a job that allows me to
24:48go into extreme and interesting places
24:52right and so I think that you know the
24:53message for the average person is that
24:56um once you figure out why you have an
25:01issue in the first place and if you can
25:03figure out okay well how do I apply it
25:05to something that enhances my life that
25:07can that can be a good life
25:10hack I want to zoom in on a particular
25:12moment there which we can all relate to
25:15it's the moment you described where you
25:18have an internal conversation about
25:19having those first two drinks now we can
25:22all relate to that in our own ways I
25:23have internal conversations with myself
25:24once in a while about having the carrot
25:26cake and in my head
25:28like it logically I know that this is
25:29not a good long-term decision right it
25:33could be you know binging on a website
25:35or whatever when you know you've got
25:36other important responsibilities and
25:37priorities in your life that moment
25:39where you have that internal
25:40conversation with yourself it appears to
25:43be the opportunity you have of making a
25:45better longterm decision how on Earth
25:47everyone listening to this will want to
25:49make better long-term decisions how do
25:52we win that battle which is seemingly
25:53with
25:54ourselves it yeah it is in a way with
25:57our cells but it's also I think in a way
26:00with this sort of ancient Hardware that
26:01we have so in the I'll I'll answer this
26:04this way and it might provide some
26:05insight and um we can kind of go from
26:08there so in this book um scarcity
26:11brain there's this underlying question I
26:14have that is you know everyone knows
26:17that everything's fine in
26:19moderation and yet we all suck at
26:20moderation in some way or another in our
26:22life right we all have a thing that
26:23we're not great at moderating let's say
26:26so I live in Las Vegas and I have this
26:28underlying question and Las Vegas is a
26:30fascinating town and um so I want to
26:32know why slot machines work why are they
26:34so good at grabbing
26:35attention now long story short as this
26:38leads me to uh this place on the edge of
26:41town in Las Vegas and it's a brand new
26:46fully working cuttingedge casino but
26:49it's used entirely for research on human
26:51behavior so it's a collaboration with
26:55the gambling industry and a bunch of
26:57different Tech companies so you go into
26:59this place and I went in there and it is
27:01just a it's a real Casino there's hotel
27:03rooms there's like restaurants there's a
27:04coffee bar there's all these different
27:06things that the casino would have like
27:07the slot machines like the poker tables
27:09like the sports book like insert
27:11whatever and while I'm there I end up
27:13talking to a researcher who um designs
27:15slot machines and slot machines work on
27:20what I call the scarcity Loop it is a
27:23three-part Behavior Loop and its three
27:25parts are one opportunity two
27:28unpredictable rewards and three quick
27:30repeatability so one
27:33opportunity you have an opportunity to
27:35get something of value that's going to
27:37enhance your life in the case of a slot
27:38machine it's money right two
27:40unpredictable rewards you know you'll
27:43get that thing of value at some point
27:45but you don't know when and you don't
27:47know how valuable it's going to be so
27:48with slot machines it's like you play
27:50you could lose your money you could win
27:52a couple dollars you could win hundreds
27:55of thousands of dollars it's crazy and
27:58then three quick repeatability you can
27:59immediately repeat the Behavior now the
28:02important part is that and why I'm
28:04talking about this is because that
28:07three-part Behavior Loop it is uh the
28:10most powerful Behavior loop at getting
28:12people to repeat behaviors and get
28:13sucked in it's like the serial killer of
28:16moderation okay and it's now in all
28:20sorts of other Tech and institutions so
28:23for example it's what makes social media
28:25work it's what makes dating apps so
28:27compelling it's being put in um
28:29financial apps like Robin Hood um it's
28:32being leveraged by different um gig work
28:36companies right it explains the rise of
28:38sports betting it's embedded in a lot of
28:40these behaviors that we can't seem to
28:42moderate so when I look at the things
28:44that people aren't good at moderating
28:46whether it's you know I check email way
28:48too much or I check my stocks way too
28:52much and this drives me nuts um it
28:55usually fall it's usually behavior that
28:56falls into those into that scarcity Loop
28:59and so the book unpacks you know what it
29:01is uh where it came from why we get
29:04hooked on it in the first place and I
29:05can explain that please and then where
29:07it um pops up in Modern Life you want to
29:09know where it came from yeah yeah yeah
29:10okay so I had the same question so I
29:13talked to the slot guy and now I'm like
29:16okay I get that gambling and slot
29:17machines are so
29:19compelling I get that this thing is in a
29:21lot of different places but why why in
29:23the first place he just looks at me goes
29:24I don't know like he just makes money
29:26off it he doesn't care
29:27so I end up calling a guy who's a
29:30psychologist at the University of
29:32Kentucky and this guy is an old school
29:33behavioral psychologist like he got his
29:36PhD in 1968 he's been doing research uh
29:39ever since and he explained that it
29:43likely evolv to help us find food in the
29:46past so if you think of humans in the
29:49past you basically had to find food
29:51every day or else you're going to die
29:54but you don't know where the food is and
29:56you don't know how much you're going to
29:57find so you go to point a no food point
30:01B no food Point C ding ding ding jackpot
30:07you find this massive elk that you end
30:10up killing and it feeds you for weeks
30:13right so that is the exact same
30:14architecture as a slot machine you play
30:16the game you don't get anything you play
30:18the game you don't get anything you play
30:19the game oh it's right there amazing and
30:22you couldn't predict any of that right
30:23and you've got to repeat that behavior
30:25every day for life so we seem to be in
30:27inherently attracted to behaviors that
30:29fall into that Loop because if we
30:31weren't in the past um we wouldn't have
30:33had as much incentive to continue
30:35searching for food and in turn survive
30:38so we still have that sort of ancient
30:40hardware and are we the only ones or is
30:42the rest of the animal kingdom wide in
30:43such a way because one would assume they
30:45would be yeah they are so the the guy
30:47that I spoke to at the University of
30:49Kentucky he does research on
30:50pigeons and pigeons will play a gambling
30:54game that gets them less overall res
30:57resources compared to a predictable game
31:00that gets them more food so we can
31:02basically turn pigeons into these sort
31:04of degenerate gamblers and you see it in
31:06rats you see it in um other primates
31:09yeah so when the rewards unpredictable
31:11for a pigeon they engage in the behavior
31:14more Yep which would again matches up
31:16with your theory that whenever there's
31:17unpredictable Awards associated with an
31:19action we are more engaged because it
31:20falls into that prehistoric Cloud wall
31:22exactly think about um starting a car
31:26okay you start your car um it turns on
31:28every time that's not that exciting
31:31right like it's not going to capture
31:32your attention let's say you turn it on
31:34and it doesn't turn over so you try it
31:36again it doesn't turn over you try it
31:37again it doesn't turn over what are you
31:39going to do you're just going to be like
31:40okay well my car's not starting I'm
31:41going to fix it now what happens if you
31:43go to start your car and it doesn't turn
31:45over but it kind of Putters it goes like
31:48it's going to turn on and then it stops
31:50then you do it again and then it doesn't
31:51do that and so you're like okay well
31:53what's going on so you do it again it
31:54starts to sound like it's going to come
31:56on it's like don't D D D D but then it
31:58doesn't you're going to sit there
31:59messing with that so long as that car is
32:02giving you signs of life right there's
32:03this unpredictability embedded into it
32:06and that'll capture attention of yeah
32:07any animal pretty much and I mean that's
32:10what when I was thinking about I think
32:11it's called like near Miss Theory or
32:12something that you you talk about in
32:14your book that's kind of what that is
32:15when you see you're on like a slot
32:16machine and you see like the Cherry go
32:18nearly you nearly got it you didn't
32:20quite get it but is that called near is
32:23it near Miss Theory or something yeah
32:24near miss so near misses are a term from
32:27the casino industry and in slot machines
32:30let's say you have five reels and you
32:33know you need these bars to line up
32:36these gold bars or whatever they we'll
32:38use cherries that's a better example you
32:40got four cherries line up and if this
32:41fifth Cherry hits you're going to win a
32:44bunch of money now what will usually
32:46happen in slot machines is that fifth
32:48wheel they will be programmed to have
32:50that thing roll longer and longer and
32:53longer so they extend that out cuz you
32:54are sucked in you're like if this thing
32:56lands I'm about to win a bunch of
32:58money and then it
33:01lands but it's not the
33:03Cherry what tends up what ends up
33:05happening is that this leads people to
33:07repeat the behavior quicker actually and
33:10because uh near misses are
33:11mathematically more likely to happen
33:13than actual wins it compels people to
33:16repeat the behavior do they use n misses
33:20as a way to engage us with technology or
33:21anything else in our lives is there like
33:23any other examples within our modern
33:24lives where I know brands or technology
33:27companies are using that as a way to
33:29engage us yeah well you could think if
33:31you
33:32um I mean say you get an update on your
33:36phone let's say you go into Instagram
33:37and you get an update and it's a comment
33:38I mean you could
33:39argue well a comment it could be good it
33:42could be bad is this a comment from like
33:45someone that I think is super cool
33:46that's saying oh that's an amazing photo
33:48you look wonderful on that photo or is
33:50it some troll online going man you look
33:52like a complete idiot in that right so
33:55there's always unpredictability and
33:56embeded in social media it wouldn't work
33:58if you knew what was coming I guess
33:59that's what why so many people just keep
34:01tweeting and posting because it's kind
34:02of like every post comes with a bunch of
34:05likes and you're going you know you
34:06might go viral yeah totally yeah think
34:08of the think of the experience of using
34:10um we'll take uh Twitter um now called X
34:14apparently um so you let's say you have
34:17come up with a a little tweet that you
34:19think is hilarious it's of the moment
34:21right so you put it up and then you wait
34:24right the reals are spinning
34:27and you open the up app back up and
34:29you're like did people like it did they
34:31retweet it and you don't know what what
34:32could have happened it could be so
34:34clever that like oh my God so many
34:36people have retweeted this and this
34:38feels amazing if this happens but it
34:40could have fallen flat and then you're
34:42like now I actually look like an idiot
34:44because I put out a joke and no one
34:45thinks it's funny it's like telling a
34:46joke in front of a room and people just
34:48stare at you right so there's this range
34:50of unpredictable outcomes that could
34:52happen same with scrolling though in a
34:54way I mean you just scroll and scroll
34:56and scroll and you're kind of searching
34:57for that video that's going to provide
35:00you with a hit of something right could
35:02be oh here's some sort of crazy fight
35:06that happened outside of a bar after a
35:08Philadelphia Eagles game because the
35:09fights are always in Philadelphia in the
35:11US um or it could be this video this
35:15amazing heartwarming dog video and that
35:18makes me smile or it could be some
35:19hilarious video that you're just
35:20laughing your butt off until you're kind
35:21of sucked into that waiting for the next
35:24win right you're scrolling scrolling
35:26scrolling and then that's the one that
35:28got me how do we break out of this cuz I
35:31you know I want to take back control
35:33yeah well we all
35:35do um well first I will say that um when
35:39people fall into this loop I like to say
35:42that you're not a bad person because
35:44this is very much part of the human
35:46brain you know people will be hard on
35:48themselves because their screen time is
35:49so high and like why do I keep doing
35:51this thing so you're not a bad person
35:54it's your ancient brain working against
35:56you it's not your fault but it is your
36:00problem you still have to figure out how
36:02am I going to get out get out of this uh
36:05the first step to me is just being aware
36:07of it in the first place so once you
36:09become uh aware of behavior and observe
36:12a behavior it tends to change that's
36:14called the Hawthorne effect and then the
36:17second part is that you can remove or
36:21change any of the three parts of that
36:24Loop that I of the scarcity Loop that I
36:25mentioned so you can remove or change
36:27the opportunity you can REM remove or
36:29change the unpredictable Rewards or you
36:31can remove or change the quick
36:32repeatability you can slow things down
36:34in scarcity brain in chapter four you
36:36talk about something I was also very
36:37very compelled about which is you make
36:39the case that we have an ingrained sense
36:41of not being enough my first book the
36:44last chapter is about this idea of like
36:45not being enough I've always
36:46hypothesized whether humans are built
36:50with a I don't know a message in our
36:52genetic code that tells us where we are
36:54designed and we will struggle forward to
36:56get more like is that hard wide into us
36:59well I think that when you when you look
37:01at how humans behave it seems to be
37:03right and I think it does go back to
37:06Evolution because if you had more of
37:08these things that we need to survive
37:10whether it's food to stuff to
37:12information to um status you would have
37:14a survival advantage and that's still um
37:17built into us I think it still is
37:20advantageous today to a point um now I'm
37:22going to turn the question back on you
37:24so it's like you probably you have that
37:27drive right and that's taken you to a
37:29certain place and now um you have
37:33certain Financial assets and you've sort
37:35of shifted though too your career so now
37:37I'm turning it back on you how do you
37:39feel like that's manifested itself in
37:40your life I it's interesting because in
37:44chapter 7 you talk about this idea of
37:45status and I once upon a time three four
37:50years ago would have told you that I'm
37:51no longer playing status games because
37:53three or four years ago I would have had
37:54flashy things like I had like a Rolex
37:56and like a sports car and designer stuff
38:00now I have none of that the outfit you
38:01see me in now is pretty much the outfit
38:02everyone sees me in always and so I
38:04assumed that I like liberated myself
38:06from the game of status however I read
38:11another book and it was it made the case
38:12that are the status games we all play
38:14just change and in fact it's an anti-
38:16signal now for someone in my position to
38:18have those things so I'm just playing a
38:20different status game maybe the status
38:21game I'm playing is how big can my
38:22podcast be or how good can I be on like
38:25TV or whatever it is MH it's just a
38:27different game so that's kind of where I
38:29think I am now I think I've just changed
38:31the game no I think you're right I think
38:33we all changed the game and we like to
38:35we like to think that we're either not
38:36playing the game or that the game hasn't
38:38changed um everyone's like that so
38:40what's it what's really interesting
38:41about status which I I loved learning
38:43when I was uh reporting about it in the
38:46book is that
38:48um psychological researchers they didn't
38:51really research status all that much
38:53until the 90s and this is because
38:57they didn't want to admit that status is
38:59important to humans because by
39:01researching it you are saying this is
39:03probably important to me so the worst
39:06thing you can do for your status is tell
39:08people that you care about your status
39:10absolutely yet everyone cares about it
39:13and everyone asks oh no I don't care I
39:14don't care what others think about me
39:15it's like yeah you do like let's I'll be
39:17honest everyone cares to some extent
39:19what others think about them in some way
39:21and I think by talking about it and also
39:23understanding why in the first place is
39:25important now the reason why to me is
39:27that the more status and influence that
39:29you would have had in the past uh would
39:31have given you a survival advantage in
39:33the sense that you probably would have
39:34to you probably wouldn't have to do the
39:36crappy like menial labor that burns
39:38energy you probably would have had more
39:39mates you probably would have gotten
39:41more food you probably would have gotten
39:42all these things and still today when
39:44you look at um how status affects Health
39:48people of lower status tend to have
39:50worse Health outcomes Than People of
39:52higher status and so you might think
39:55well this is just because the the higher
39:56status people have more money and they
39:58can go to better hospitals and get
39:59better healthare but the thing is is
40:01that it holds in countries that have
40:04Universal healthare so everyone's
40:05healthare access is pretty much
40:08equal could it not relate to the type of
40:11work they're doing because as you kind
40:13of said earlier I think of if you're
40:14lower status one might assume the type
40:18of work you're doing is constrained MH
40:22low autonomy maybe more isolated
40:25potentially monotonous or less
40:27fulfilling and that might have
40:28physiological
40:29implications um it's interesting people
40:31that are higher status live
40:33longer that's not a nice narrative is it
40:36yeah no and that's the thing it's like
40:37it's not super comfortable to talk about
40:39right um and it definitely affects us
40:43and here's a here's a sort of fun crazy
40:47study that I came across while reporting
40:48scarcity brain is that uh flights that
40:52have a first class cabin they have a
40:54four-fold higher rate of rage compare
40:57compared to flights that don't have a
40:59first class cabin and if the passengers
41:04in second class coach have to walk
41:07through the first class cabin the rate
41:10increases to a ninefold increase in
41:13incidents of air rage what is air rage
41:15people going absolutely nuts on flights
41:18it's like when there's a there's a big
41:20incident with you know the the flight
41:22attendant or someone just losing their
41:25mind and they have to ground plane or
41:26whatever it might be and why do you
41:27think that is well the researchers think
41:29it's because of that massive status
41:31queue of having to walk through first
41:33class and by the way you're not first
41:34class because you're in coach we talked
41:37about um food in your how you covered it
41:40in your first book but in your second
41:41book scarcity brain you talk about food
41:42again specifically you talk quite a lot
41:45about snacking oh yeah snacking what's
41:47the problem with snacking everybody
41:49snacks so this isn't in the
41:511970s the food industry decided you know
41:54we need to come up with this new
41:55category
41:56of eating and it's eating between meals
41:59snacking now if people are eating three
42:02Square meals um they may not be super
42:05full so they kind of need just these
42:06little meals they can have and they need
42:09to be easy to eat they need to be quick
42:11to eat so they come up with um snack
42:13foods and what's really interesting is
42:16that uh you know I told you about the
42:18scarcity Loop there is a executive in
42:21the food industry who's was talking
42:23about what makes a snack food successful
42:26like how do you sell snack food and he
42:28said it has to have three V's it's got
42:29to have value it's got to have variety
42:32and it's got to have velocity that's
42:34just another way of talking about that
42:35Loop so right it's a good value variety
42:38it's got to have a lot of different
42:40interesting intense flavors and there's
42:42got to be a lot of different options so
42:44when you think about chips or crisps as
42:46you guys you guys call them crisps right
42:48there's a bunch of different flavors
42:49there's like barbecue there's sour cream
42:51there's salsa there's like all these
42:52different flavors and then um velocity
42:55it has to be quick to eat so when you
42:57Ultra process a food as I mentioned
42:59before people tend to eat it faster and
43:02so the industry really leans into this
43:04they create snacking as this totally new
43:05category and this is um in the 70s is
43:07when you really start to see obesity
43:09climb and it's because we just end up
43:11eating more across the day meantime our
43:14activity levels are are dropping there's
43:17a kind of a through line there with
43:18gambling when you talked about velocity
43:20the the speed in which you get the
43:22outcome mhm being short the faster we
43:25can do a Behavior the more likely we are
43:27to repeat the behavior especially if
43:29it's unpredictable so one of the big
43:31advances in Casino technology for
43:33example with slot machines was removing
43:35the handles because you know if you've
43:38um if the machine has a handle you have
43:45to once they got rid of handles and just
43:47put a spin button you can keep your hand
43:49on the button and
43:52just and it basically doubled the rate
43:54of gambling so people went from playing
43:56I think 400 to 500 games in an hour up
43:59to an average of 900 so that's more if
44:02you break that down by minute um it's
44:03more than we
44:05blink interesting yeah with a crazy
44:09range of outcomes too why can't it so if
44:12snacking is a sort relatively new
44:15invention in modern society and it's
44:17it's correlated to the rise in
44:19obesity can we not just measure the
44:21amount of calories that we have like can
44:23we not just do the you know the whole
44:24calories in calories out approach to
44:26staying fit and healthy oh I I think you
44:29absolutely could but I just the question
44:31is are people going to actually do that
44:33I mean I think there's a certain sub you
44:34know there's a portion of the population
44:36that will do that and you know I do
44:39believe that if you were to measure
44:41everything perfectly you have um you
44:44know you could probably lose weight
44:45eating McDonald's and there's people who
44:47have shown this at the same time if you
44:49are eating only McDonald's I can tell
44:50you something you are going to be
44:51starving throughout the day because
44:54foods that are Ultra processed tend to
44:56less filling per calorie than foods that
44:58have just a single ingredient so I want
45:00you to picture um you and I have a bag
45:05of potato chips and then we have a plate
45:07of boiled
45:08potatoes what do you think we could have
45:10more calories
45:12of aren't they the same thing they both
45:14made of
45:15potato the the fried potatoes right
45:18right really the chips so if you like
45:21how you could probably eat an entire bag
45:23of chips if you really set your mind to
45:25it oh yeah but you could e an equivalent
45:27amount of calories and boiled potatoes I
45:29mean it would you would get full like a
45:32quarter of the way through so for
45:34example you know like a boil an ounce of
45:36boiled potatoes might have 50 to 100
45:38calories an ounce of chips might have
45:41200 whatever it is and by the way it's
45:43also not as filling because there's not
45:45as much water content um so when you
45:49process a food you concentrate the
45:50calories and people tend to eat more of
45:52the food I don't eat them anymore but
45:55they to be one of my favorite foods and
45:57in your first book I think you you came
45:59for them which is quasons but I I don't
46:02have those anymore because they make you
46:04feel like and my gut hates them but
46:06you use a crossant as an example of a
46:09food that makes us less full MH yeah so
46:13there's this really interesting study
46:14out of Australia where they um had
46:17people eat a certain amount of different
46:19types of foods and then they had them go
46:22eat at a buffet a certain amount of time
46:24later and measured how much they ate
46:26after and asked them how how full they
46:28were after eating the test food
46:30so they found that the most filling food
46:33per calorie was plain boiled potatoes um
46:37I think after that was just plain white
46:40fish that was a relatively lowfat fish
46:43and then after that I think it was
46:44oatmeal just plain oatmeal and the least
46:46filling Foods were tended to be things
46:49like croissants cookies foods like that
46:53foods that have been um you know we're
46:56we're mixing
46:58flour fat all these sorts of things and
47:00baking it and it's like this nice crispy
47:02thing so it's really a it's a
47:04measurement of how processed a food is
47:06basically a small croissant and white
47:09potato both have about 170 calories but
47:12you'd have to eat seven cants before you
47:15feel the same amount of fullness as one
47:17potato H how much of weight gain is
47:20about the feeling of fullness because
47:22it's not really a concept that I really
47:23thought much about this idea of fullness
47:25I thought
47:26the key thing was calories or not eating
47:29junk food but
47:31fullness well I think that you will
47:33be
47:35Fuller or you will be as full eating
47:38fewer uh and end up eating fewer
47:40calories if the food is not as processed
47:43so the foods just they take up more room
47:46in your stomach they're not packing in
47:47as much calories per
47:49bite let's say for you to be full you
47:51have to eat 10 ounces of
47:53food and we have one food then that has
47:5650 calories per ounce and one food that
47:58has 100 calories per ounce right so if
48:02you were to eat the 10 oun of this food
48:04you're going to eat 500 calories but if
48:05you eat 10 ounces of this food you're
48:07going to eat a thousand and I think that
48:09you extrapolate that across the day and
48:11you start to see oh okay I can see why
48:13choosing foods that help me be more full
48:16on fewer calories could be good if my
48:17goal was to lose weight or not gain
48:20weight compared to F foods that are more
48:22calorie dense what's your position on
48:23fasting I think that it can be a good
48:25weight control tool for some people I
48:27think um it can
48:30constrain like look if you're a person
48:32who's eating around the clock and you go
48:35okay well I'm just going to eat from
48:37noon to whatever 6:00 p.m. or 700 p.m.
48:41you've just cut out a lot of meals um I
48:44also think that if you were to go well
48:46since I'm only eating from noon to 6:00
48:48p.m. um I better eat a ton every single
48:50meal I don't know if you would lose
48:52weight I think there could be definitely
48:54some um health benefits
48:56possibly um but I also think that if
48:59you're doing these extended fast that
49:00could maybe not be great for for muscle
49:02mass so I think it kind of goes back to
49:04like these things are complicated right
49:05and I think it kind of goes back to uh
49:07what is your goal uh how are you trying
49:10to use this tool like what are you doing
49:12this for and then is the way that you're
49:15doing it does it align properly with
49:17your goal but I do I mean I've met
49:19plenty of people who have lost weight
49:21fasting simply because they ate crap for
49:24breakfast and they would stop at
49:26Starbucks on the way um to work and get
49:29some sugary drink and like just by
49:32cutting that out because now they don't
49:33eat till noon like they ended up losing
49:35weight you talk about hungry
49:38days programming two hungry days per
49:40week yes hung day that's one that um has
49:43worked for some people where you could
49:45eat relatively normally say 5 days a
49:47week and then people will eat say 500
49:49calories on their two hungry days so
49:51basically you're just constraining your
49:52calories basically just pulling the
49:54lever of time right um if you can at the
49:58end of the day it
49:59um I think really calories is probably
50:02the best predictor of weight gain or
50:04loss and so the question is okay if you
50:07need to reduce the calories how are we
50:09going to do that and there's a lot of
50:10different ways to do it I think that
50:11fasting is pretty damn simple right it
50:13seems a lot simpler than some of the
50:15other methods out there I was on a a
50:17treadmill many years ago in Boston and I
50:20always tell the story cuz I'd got into
50:21this routine of running like 5 10 kmers
50:23a day every day on the treadmill pretty
50:25much every on the treadmill and I and
50:27when I got to that 510 km Mark I would
50:29typically feel like fatigued and then
50:31there was this one day where I landed in
50:33Boston got on this treadmill that the
50:35distance dial wasn't working so I
50:37couldn't see how far I was running so I
50:39thought well I'll stop when I feel the
50:40usual feeling and I start running and I
50:43start running and I start running and I
50:44start running and I only get off the
50:46treadmill because I'm going to be late
50:47for this appointment that I have and
50:48when I hit the stop treadmill button the
50:51distance pops up and I've run two times
50:54further than I usually run on a
50:55treadmill and I didn't feel the same I
50:58felt fine felt fine and I couldn't
51:01understand that until and I've said this
51:02on stage quite quite often as evidence
51:04that there's clearly something going on
51:05in our psychology that is signaling to
51:08our body that we are at our limits and
51:11that's clearly somewhat of an illusion
51:12and then I read in your first book The
51:14Comfort crisis this idea of where you
51:16talk about mental fatigue does that kind
51:18of marry up to what I'm what I'm saying
51:20oh 100% muscular fatigue sorry our
51:22psychology effects are how we perform
51:25basically and there's a lot of
51:26fascinating studies um similar to yours
51:28where they will uh take people and um
51:31you know they'll give them some sort of
51:32cue like we're gonna run as run as far
51:34as you can um most people are getting
51:38about an hour so they'll give them this
51:40Quee and then they will change the uh
51:43time basically they'll change the clock
51:46so the people maybe have run 40 minutes
51:48in real in reality but they think
51:50they've done you know an hour and 5
51:52minutes which is 5 minutes longer than
51:54some of the better times and they'll be
51:56like okay I'm totally wiped out they'll
51:58do opposite where they slow down time so
52:01these people will have run an hour and
52:02say 30 minutes I'm making up the times
52:05but they think they've run that hour and
52:06five minutes just a little bit better
52:08than the next guy and then they'll then
52:09they'll be like okay I'm totally
52:11fatigued and there's plenty of research
52:13that goes back years that basically says
52:15our psychological perceptions is a key
52:17determinant of um how tired we feel
52:21during exercise cuz at the heart of this
52:23Comfort crisis is our psychological
52:25relationship with discomfort discomfort
52:27to me feels like a story I tell myself
52:30oh it's totally a story yeah what story
52:32are you going to tell yourself right so
52:33here's another great
52:35example your
52:37legs they're they're spasming they're
52:39tired if you're running up a hill it
52:42sucks you want to quit if you're having
52:44sex this is great right like context
52:48really matters about how we feel and so
52:51I think also realizing you know there's
52:54some really fascinating studies
52:56that show we don't recruit all of our um
52:58capacity more or less because uh it's a
53:01defense mechanism right you want to keep
53:03some capacity on board so your brain is
53:05trying to slow you down and shut you
53:07down before you've reached your limit
53:10framing how you want to view how a
53:12workout is going is important right and
53:14I think it can allow you to squeeze a
53:15little more performance out of it now
53:17let's say your brain only allows you to
53:19recruit 50% of your muscle I don't think
53:21you can go I've only gotten 50% and
53:23you're going to get like up to 100 like
53:26doesn't work like that but I do think
53:28running it through like context and
53:30thought and realizing like this actually
53:32isn't as bad and by the way I've chosen
53:34to do this and it's kind of awesome that
53:35I can choose to do this can allow you to
53:38perform a little better I wonder I wish
53:40there was like a magic pill we could
53:41take which allowed us to change the
53:44frame and the story We Tell ourselves
53:46about the discomfort we experience you
53:48know because there's clearly a big group
53:50of people that are able to you know
53:52Ultra Runners and Ultra athletes and all
53:54this stuff but you but this can also be
53:56I mean this isn't just exercise we're
53:58talking about right it's like what story
53:59am I going to tell myself in any given
54:01situation so I get I'll give you a good
54:03example is that um so I spend 33 days in
54:06the Arctic right now to get up to where
54:10the drop off point is you have to take a
54:11bunch of different flights my first
54:12flight is from Las Vegas to uh
54:16Seattle and I hate flying right the
54:19plane is always too hot the seed is
54:21cramped the movies suck on the plane if
54:23you want to go to the bathroom it's just
54:25cramped little closet babies crying it's
54:27just it's
54:28terrible then I go spend a month in the
54:31Arctic where I'm hungry the entire time
54:36if I want water I have to hike down to
54:37the stream and Hike it back up I'm
54:39freezing cold the entire time I'm
54:41sitting in the dirt the entire time if I
54:43want to go to the bathroom I have to
54:44hike out onto the tundra and I got to
54:45bring a rifle because there's grizzly
54:48bears so when I leave that world and I
54:51get back on that flight to Las Vegas
54:53what do you think the flight was like h
54:56amazing this is the most amazing thing
54:58that's ever happened to me right so the
55:00chair I hadn't sat in a chair for more
55:01than a month it's like oh my God this
55:03chair is so incredibly comfortable I'd
55:06been freezing the entire time so that
55:09warm plane I was like oh this plane is
55:10so comfortable so nice and warm I'd been
55:13bored out of my mind up there the whole
55:15time because I don't have any screens or
55:16anything so those movies in the seat
55:18back oh my God this is the most
55:20stimulating thing I've ever watched this
55:21is
55:22incredible um snack food I used to think
55:25the airplane snack food sucked I'm like
55:26oh my God these pretzels amazing and
55:29then when I go to the bathroom right
55:30it's you hit this little red Tab and you
55:34get hot running water that hits your
55:35hands at 35,000 ft and you're moving 600
55:40mes hour through tube of Steel it's like
55:44when that hot water hit my hands it was
55:47incredible so context matters because
55:51once I went and did that that totally
55:53reframed how I think about these
55:55situations that I used to about in
55:56the past and now I can appreciate them
55:59so the reality is is
56:01that the world that we live in today is
56:04amazing in so many ways like full stop
56:07incredible the fact that we have hot
56:09running water on demand the fact that we
56:11have all these different forms of
56:13entertainment the fact that we don't
56:14have to hunt and gather for our food
56:17like we're not forced to do these things
56:19um but we often miss how amazing that is
56:23because we're like the fish thrown in
56:24the water that don't in the water and um
56:27I do think that doing things that push
56:30back against that having experiences
56:31that you throw yourself into they can be
56:33big and small that throw you out of your
56:35comfort zone and give you perspective I
56:37do think that that is important um in
56:39order to live well and get perspective
56:42and have gratitude I mean I still have
56:45times today
56:46where I'll be washing my hands the
56:48water's nice and hot and I'll think back
56:50to that and be like Oh remember when
56:51like hot running water hit your hands
56:53and you got emotional how amazing it is
56:55I mean it's good to have these reminders
56:57that life is pretty amazing right now
56:59we've come pretty far it made me think
57:02that discomfort is an antidote for
57:03happiness in that regard because you
57:06know and also then my it popped into my
57:07brain what I what I used to learn about
57:09the stoic people and how they do that
57:11sort of what hnis adaptation and they
57:13would um remove the pleasantries from
57:15their lives so that they could
57:16appreciate them more yeah we adapt to
57:19what we have so it's like today's
57:22pleasure is tomorrow is just any given
57:24thing and we're looking for the next
57:25pleasure and um there's some interesting
57:29studies about this as well one of my
57:30favorites from the comfort crisis is
57:32this study that found that as people
57:34experience fewer and fewer problems we
57:37don't um become more satisfied we simply
57:39start searching for the next problem
57:41really yes it's called it's a theory it
57:44was discovered by Harvard researchers in
57:45the psychology department and it's the
57:47technical term they call it as
57:49prevalence induced concept change and
57:50you can just think about it as problem
57:52creep Now problem creep creep right so
57:56you know what used to be a problem
57:59yesterday or we're always going to look
58:01for problems it's basically what I'm
58:02trying to say um and they discovered
58:05this where in this study where they
58:06would have people look at a bunch of
58:08different faces and determine you know
58:11is this face threatening or
58:12non-threatening they'd go one face after
58:14another and by the 200th face though
58:17this the scientists started feeding the
58:19participant or the yeah the study
58:20participants fewer and fewer threatening
58:23faces the other study they did two of
58:26these they had them look at research
58:28papers and determine whether the
58:30research papers were ethical or
58:32unethical same deal about Midway through
58:35they start feeding them fewer and fewer
58:37unethical research
58:39proposals now if these two things are
58:41black or white the groups would have
58:42said threatening fewer times as time
58:44went on they would have found fewer and
58:46fewer unethical research proposals
58:48because they've been given less right
58:49because they've been given less but that
58:52didn't happen what they did is they said
58:54said threatening the exact same amount
58:56of times they took faces that were kind
58:58of on the border that they would have
58:59passed up and not said were threatening
59:01before they started deeming those
59:02threatening same with the research
59:03proposals they started getting more
59:05nitpicky now the scientist who I uh
59:08spoke with his name is David lavari yep
59:12getting his name right I remembered it
59:15um he explained that probably in the
59:18past it gave you a survival advantage to
59:20always be looking for the next problem
59:22right cuz if you're a type of person
59:23who's vigilant going okay we might run
59:26out of food that is problematic we got
59:28to fix it um this is a problem let's fix
59:30that if you're Vigilant like that that
59:32would that would help you survive right
59:34but applied to today's world where
59:37you've seen the world get better and
59:39better over
59:40time it often causes us to miss how
59:43amazing it is and pile up first world
59:46problems right so uh there's also
59:50amazing research where researchers will
59:52ask the average American do you think
59:54the world world is improving and only 6%
59:57of people think the world is improving
01:00:00it's because we look for the next
01:00:01problem but if you think about that from
01:00:04like let's take the last 500 years like
01:00:06of course the world is better you live
01:00:09longer you're more likely to be literate
01:00:11you're less likely to be starving you're
01:00:13less likely to use a child yeah exactly
01:00:16on and on and on but we often don't um
01:00:19realize that in the moment and that
01:00:20affects us are we getting you know you
01:00:22talked about the abundance we have in
01:00:23the world but are we getting
01:00:25happier do you know any stats around
01:00:28around our Collective happiness or how
01:00:30we report on
01:00:32that yeah I think a lot of the research
01:00:34on happiness suggests that we are less
01:00:36happy than we were um more mental health
01:00:39problems as well we all know those stats
01:00:41around Depression more mental health
01:00:42problems yep and there's probably a
01:00:44variety of reasons for that but I do
01:00:46think that one one thing that's
01:00:48interesting
01:00:51um we seem to live in a world where uh
01:00:55a lot of people have enough of what they
01:00:56need to survive and if they don't it's
01:00:59probably a governmental problem it's
01:01:01probably a distribution problem um and
01:01:04this I'm mainly talking about developed
01:01:05countries here but as we've got more and
01:01:08more and more we haven't necessarily
01:01:10become more happy so for example I think
01:01:12their year was from 1970 to about
01:01:152000 the real income of Americans grew
01:01:19by 50% so this is um this factors in you
01:01:23know price adjustments
01:01:25inflation so people got 50% richer on
01:01:28average yet happiness didn't change in
01:01:31fact it might have actually decreased a
01:01:32little bit so this suggests that once
01:01:35our needs are met to a certain point
01:01:38like it's not necessarily going to make
01:01:39us happier yet we keep thinking that you
01:01:41know happiness is going to be in the
01:01:42next purchase that it's in the next meal
01:01:45out that it's in the next uh viral tweet
01:01:47or whatever it might be did they
01:01:49discover an antidote for this sort of
01:01:50incessant search for problems because
01:01:53I'd like to be content
01:01:55yeah well that that's the that's the
01:01:56search right that's the that's the
01:01:58ultimate human search I think that a lot
01:02:00of uh religions they're set up to
01:02:03counter
01:02:05that right don't don't uh don't steal
01:02:09because you're taking away from someone
01:02:11else and Society falls apart don't be
01:02:14gluttonous because that's going to give
01:02:16you problems don't you know they're all
01:02:18telling us don't overdo all these
01:02:21worldly things that we tend to overdo
01:02:23and instead the f is to you know take
01:02:26the focus off
01:02:27yourself and put it on something that
01:02:30will help you um kind of do the next
01:02:32right thing now those get interpreted in
01:02:34ways that can be controversial of course
01:02:37but I do think that the overall
01:02:38architecture is the same and that is the
01:02:40that is the ultimate question for all
01:02:42people right my whole team here have got
01:02:44more and more into running we speak
01:02:47about running all the time and obviously
01:02:48you know Daniel liberman who's been on
01:02:49the show before I think he wrote well he
01:02:51wrote a book on running didn't he it's
01:02:52his last book the one we had a
01:02:53conversation with on the show what's
01:02:55your perspective on exercise running and
01:02:59what did you learn when you studied um
01:03:01nomadic tribes about the importance of
01:03:04exercise yeah well I mean I do think
01:03:06that um it's probably the best thing
01:03:08that you can do for your health is
01:03:10exercising and I think that um you know
01:03:12a lot of people will say exercise is
01:03:14medicine I think more that inactivity is
01:03:17poison so we evolved to have a certain
01:03:19amount of activity in our daily life
01:03:21like we need that in order to be get a
01:03:23certain to healthy and happy and we
01:03:27often don't get that today the way we
01:03:29design Our Lives um something I write
01:03:30about in the comfort crisis
01:03:33is uh the human body is good at two
01:03:36things humans have all to be good at two
01:03:37things one of them is running long
01:03:40distances relatively slowly which I'm
01:03:41sure Daniel liberman talked about
01:03:43because he's the dude who discovered
01:03:45that he's great but the other thing that
01:03:47we are good at is carrying things for
01:03:50distance so you you ask okay well why
01:03:53are we good at this long distance
01:03:55running in the Heat and it's because we
01:03:57would chase down animals who are not
01:03:59good at cooling themselves um for miles
01:04:02and miles and miles until they
01:04:03overheated and then we would kill them
01:04:05and we would have our
01:04:07meal but then what happens after you
01:04:09kill an animal away from
01:04:14Camp call an anci
01:04:16Uber you got to carry back yeah and
01:04:19we're the only uh we're the only animal
01:04:22that can carry things for distance
01:04:25well and that absolutely shaped us just
01:04:29as much as running did so we've got
01:04:31these hands that can grip things
01:04:33strongly we're built in such a way that
01:04:35um we can carry stuff for distance and I
01:04:38argue in the comfort crisis a lot of
01:04:40people still run like jogging is popular
01:04:44but carrying things as a
01:04:47workout is something that a lot of
01:04:49people don't do and so I advocate for uh
01:04:53rucking which is loading up a backpack
01:04:56with weight and walking and when you
01:04:59compare uh rucking to running rocking
01:05:02tends to um be less injurious so people
01:05:06the injury rate is much lower it also
01:05:10preserves more
01:05:12muscle than running does so when you run
01:05:15you're burning fat but you're also
01:05:16burning muscle when you rock because you
01:05:18have weight on your body it's signaling
01:05:20your body like don't burn quite quite as
01:05:22much muscle and studies bear that out
01:05:24um so you're kind of getting cardio and
01:05:26weight training in one and I think it's
01:05:28a good thing that people should be doing
01:05:29I'm not saying don't ever run but I am
01:05:31saying we've engineered this really
01:05:34important form of human physical
01:05:36activity which is carrying things for
01:05:39long distances out of our lives and by
01:05:41adding it back in I think we do get a
01:05:43lot of different benefits how does the
01:05:45modern body look different to the body
01:05:48of our ancestors in that regard or these
01:05:51um nomadic tribe tribes do they have
01:05:53sort of cuz I imagine if they're if
01:05:55they're carrying things in a world where
01:05:57we can put it in the boot of a car or
01:05:59find some other means using Wheels to
01:06:01roll it they must be physiologically um
01:06:05adapted in certain ways I think that
01:06:08well I think that in my experience and
01:06:10you would have to talk to Dan as well to
01:06:12see if he um agrees with this but I do
01:06:14think that most Hunter gathers are much
01:06:18smaller than the average Westerner is
01:06:21they're just much smaller because they
01:06:23don't have as much food they're also far
01:06:26more active and so they're not giant
01:06:29people when you look at when you look at
01:06:31people in the west today were giant
01:06:34people in the grand scheme of time and
01:06:35space who burns more calories uh well if
01:06:38you did it per pound of body weight they
01:06:41do like by far but when you they might
01:06:45wait so you have to do it by how big the
01:06:47person is right if you have two people
01:06:49that are burning 3,000
01:06:51calories great but if one person weigh
01:06:54weighs 250 lb and the other weighs 120
01:06:56lb well the person who's 120 lb is
01:06:58burning far more for their body weight
01:07:00and that's an important distinction that
01:07:01needs to be made when we talk about do
01:07:04hunter gatherers burn as many calories
01:07:06as Westerner because there's some people
01:07:07who are like well they burn the same
01:07:08it's like yeah they're 100b on average
01:07:10we're on average 200 lb like that's a
01:07:12big difference the arms of the average
01:07:15Prehistoric Women for example were 16%
01:07:17stronger than those of today's women's
01:07:19Olympic rowers yeah Jesus yeah they're
01:07:22they're very fit people I mean they can
01:07:24go there's this one um Anthropologist I
01:07:27talked to who spent some time with
01:07:29hunter gatherers in Tanzania and she
01:07:31talked about how even the older people
01:07:34in the tribe we're talking about you
01:07:35know 70 80 year old women they can just
01:07:38hike all day they can hurdle over rocks
01:07:40like it's like they're monsters and I'm
01:07:42like you know she's a 30-year-old woman
01:07:44she's like I'm kind of trailing behind
01:07:46these these women that are like two
01:07:48almost three times my
01:07:51age and that's because they've stayed
01:07:53active in kept muscle mass right yeah
01:07:55they stayed active and so when you think
01:07:56about daily life
01:08:00um a lot of it is effortful so they're
01:08:03not just Co they're not just covering
01:08:06ground they're covering ground that is
01:08:08rough right it's all
01:08:10Outdoors um that's going to require more
01:08:12energy than a than a sidewalk they're
01:08:15carrying stuff they're squatting they're
01:08:18digging they're some of them will climb
01:08:21trees even when they're resting they
01:08:23might rest in the squat position where
01:08:25we are going to rest in a lazy boy and
01:08:26just melt into it right so there's this
01:08:28all this I mean besides just the stuff
01:08:30that we would look at and say like yeah
01:08:32that's active I mean even just resting
01:08:34is more active than we're they're always
01:08:36undergoing some low level of physical
01:08:38activity and now we've engineered so
01:08:42much of that out of our lives and that's
01:08:43undoubtedly changed us but we don't even
01:08:45know it's like we're born into it right
01:08:46because as a species we evolved to do
01:08:48the next easiest most comfortable thing
01:08:51so we have applied that with technology
01:08:53ology to our
01:08:55environments and it's good overall but
01:09:00it's changed us it's changed our fitness
01:09:02it's changed our physicality and once we
01:09:05did that and realized oh we've taken out
01:09:07all this physical activity out of our
01:09:09lives and now we're getting sick for it
01:09:12we go well I guess let's just like build
01:09:13these buildings where um you just go and
01:09:16you know maybe you run on a belt and
01:09:18maybe you pick up some uh weights that
01:09:20are perfectly balanced and you do that
01:09:23you know how about three sets of 10
01:09:25that's what we'll call it right so when
01:09:27we we basically invented exercise right
01:09:30and it's not the same as we used to
01:09:32necessarily do in the past I'm not
01:09:33saying that there's anything wrong with
01:09:34that but I just saying that the way that
01:09:36we are Physically Active today even that
01:09:38has changed greatly like no one in the
01:09:40past would have tried to get Giant and
01:09:43lift a bunch of Weights that it doesn't
01:09:44make sense to have all this extra muscle
01:09:46you didn't have enough food to grow it
01:09:47you didn't want to be carrying that
01:09:49around on your persons I mean think of
01:09:51mountain climbers they don't like bulk
01:09:52up for a climb right they don't get huge
01:09:54and jacked it's like no you need to be
01:09:56strong for your weight you need to be as
01:09:58strong as possible for your weight but
01:09:59you don't want to have any excess weight
01:10:01and today you have people who are like I
01:10:03just want to be like 250 pounds of pure
01:10:04muscle it's going to be awesome people
01:10:06always people have been saying to me
01:10:07that calisthenics is one of the more
01:10:08important exercises probably for that
01:10:10very reason that lifting your body
01:10:12weight is probably the central being
01:10:14able to move your body is the most
01:10:16important thing not having massive guns
01:10:19yeah and I think it is a strange thing
01:10:21like there is some research that says
01:10:22that muscle mass um is good for
01:10:24longevity and protective um a lot of
01:10:26those studies are often conducted um
01:10:28looking at people who are sarcopenic and
01:10:30there's a difference between people who
01:10:32have a dangerously low level of muscle
01:10:34mass and those who just have a ton just
01:10:36to have it I think probably The Sweet
01:10:37Spot is just be in a as much as BMI is a
01:10:41controversial measurement I think
01:10:43probably be in a BMI that is normal and
01:10:46try and be strong for your weight and do
01:10:48a bunch of cardiovascular exercise I
01:10:50mean just look at like what did humans
01:10:52do for all of time that's probably a
01:10:53pretty good road map to try and mimic
01:10:56and you tend to find that those people
01:10:58aren't that giant Daniel liberman said
01:11:00something to me which is clearly so
01:11:02obvious but really did shock me he said
01:11:05when he spoke to these sort of hunter
01:11:07gatherer tribe
01:11:09communities they almost laughed at him
01:11:11when he asked them what they do for
01:11:13exercise because the concept of exercise
01:11:16is not something they think about
01:11:17because they're exercising all day so I
01:11:20think he remarked that one of those
01:11:22communities turned around him and was
01:11:23like why would you run for
01:11:25fun totally yeah they he was go what do
01:11:28you do for exercise and they probably
01:11:29said what the hell's exercise literally
01:11:31like oh he said like something like
01:11:32training what do you do to train and
01:11:34they were like training like we it's
01:11:36part of our life is exercise well that's
01:11:37how it was for all of us forever like no
01:11:40one moved just to move because our
01:11:43lifestyles in the past were we had to
01:11:46just move for work and you wouldn't want
01:11:47to do any extra because you were moving
01:11:49all day for labor I mean this was Farm
01:11:50labor really taxing most people worked
01:11:52in agriculture um until the Industrial
01:11:56Revolution um exercise is something that
01:11:58we invented once we engineered movement
01:11:59out of our Lives you took about a second
01:12:02ago about exercise as a psychological
01:12:04act I.E once upon a time when we were
01:12:06out in nature exercising we would be
01:12:09psychologically stimulated because there
01:12:10might be a bear or I don't know a lineon
01:12:12coming at us so we we're we're moving
01:12:14our bodies but our mind is so attuned to
01:12:16everything happening around us now as
01:12:18you said we're on in these gyms with
01:12:20these rubber belts and we're watching
01:12:22like I don't know we're like looking at
01:12:24the screen or watching Netflix or just
01:12:26yeah whatever real housewise on the on
01:12:28the treadmill does that having exercise
01:12:32be a psychological act where it's
01:12:33psychologically stimulating through the
01:12:35when you're doing it does that matter
01:12:38yeah why I just wrote a deep dive about
01:12:40this on my newsletter um which I call 2%
01:12:42we can I can explain why I call it 2%
01:12:44but when you think about the context of
01:12:46exercise um that we used to do in the
01:12:50past there are so many more things
01:12:52happening than just
01:12:54the physical work of moving your body
01:12:56across the land so as you're moving take
01:13:00take something like trail
01:13:01running you're having to figure out okay
01:13:03well where am I going to place each foot
01:13:06because the trail might be Rocky you
01:13:07might even not even be on a trail so
01:13:09you're having to figure out what what is
01:13:10my foot placement you're also having to
01:13:12factor in okay how am I going to Pace
01:13:14myself knowing I have this distance to
01:13:16go knowing that it is this hot outside
01:13:18knowing that I have this much water with
01:13:19me you're also having to factor in
01:13:21things in the periphery like are there
01:13:23wild animals out there and if you are
01:13:26running because you are say hunting in
01:13:29the past you're having to track the
01:13:30animal that is an exceedingly
01:13:32psychologically taxing act you're
01:13:34looking at you're going okay well we got
01:13:36a broken Branch there oh looks like
01:13:38there's a blood spatter from that you
01:13:40know Arrow we put in it it is if running
01:13:43on a treadmill is like
01:13:45addition running outside in the context
01:13:47that we would have run outside is like
01:13:48multivar calculus and there's a
01:13:51researcher at USC named David rein and
01:13:57he's thought about this a lot and he
01:13:59basically thinks that you know when you
01:14:01compare running indoors staring at a
01:14:03screen your brain just kind of shuts off
01:14:05you don't really have to do much
01:14:07cognitive work as you do this exercise
01:14:09yes it is good for your cardiovascular
01:14:11health he will say but when you exercise
01:14:14Outdoors especially if it's in sort of
01:14:16Wilder nature like on a trail think
01:14:18running on a trail you're having to do a
01:14:20lot of cognitive work as you do that and
01:14:22that might be better for brain health as
01:14:24well in the long run for people not to
01:14:27mention outdoor exercise exercise is
01:14:30also harder you're probably going to
01:14:31burn more calories per step you're going
01:14:33to have more ups and downs you're going
01:14:34to have like it's just it's just better
01:14:36overall how much do you really know
01:14:39about your health for me that answer was
01:14:41simple the answer was very little until
01:14:44whoop came along as you guys know they
01:14:46sponsor this podcast but even before
01:14:48then who was integral for me to know
01:14:50what's going on inside my body most of
01:14:52my friends my family and my team now use
01:14:54W but I still have a few friends that
01:14:56are on the fence about getting on board
01:14:58and what I hear from some of those
01:14:59friends is that they're a little bit
01:15:00worried about what they might see in the
01:15:01data and they might feel uncomfortable
01:15:04about knowing what's going on inside
01:15:05their body if I learned anything it is
01:15:08that knowledge is power and once I
01:15:10finally started to look at the data and
01:15:11understand how getting less sleep was
01:15:13affecting my body and how my old
01:15:15lifestyle was actually hurting my
01:15:17long-term Health everything changed for
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01:15:35you'll know this podcast is sponsored by
01:15:36H and we're going into that last quarter
01:15:38of the year it's getting a little bit
01:15:40colder back into our routines back into
01:15:42our work rhythms and it's in those
01:15:44moments that I need to focus most on my
01:15:46diet as I get back into the swing of
01:15:48work I need to get back into a routine
01:15:49as it relates to my diet and that's
01:15:51really where hu's RTD they're ready to
01:15:53drink range comes in handy in a bottle
01:15:55you have a nutritionally complete meal
01:15:58that you can consume in a minute so this
01:15:59is a real Lifesaver in terms of my
01:16:01health it is my Ally and my friend and
01:16:04my companion on my busiest days and it
01:16:06means that even when I'm pursuing all of
01:16:08my professional goals my health goals
01:16:10can be pursued at the same time there's
01:16:11a link in the description below if
01:16:12you've never tried heels rtds this is
01:16:14the time if you're falling off with a
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01:16:19description order yourself a pack stay
01:16:21healthy throughout this busy period
01:16:23Daniel also opened my eyes to something
01:16:25I had just before I spoke to Daniel I
01:16:26had an issue with my feet I had what
01:16:29they call is it planta fitis mhm I woke
01:16:31up one day and I basically couldn't walk
01:16:33because something in my foot had like
01:16:34swollen up and then I Googled it and
01:16:36they said it's plop fitis and the
01:16:38hypothesis so I I was then given these
01:16:40ins cels to kind of try and correct it
01:16:43the hypothesis that I then later
01:16:45discovered was that because my feet are
01:16:47so weak because I walk around every day
01:16:49in these like one-in cushion shoes that
01:16:51we all do and there's this whole
01:16:53industry about like heel size and how
01:16:55that makes running and exercise and
01:16:57comfort better and it's how it's better
01:16:58for you or better for your knees when I
01:17:01suddenly started exerting a lot of
01:17:02effort onto my feet because I was
01:17:04training for a big football match my
01:17:05feet just gave away and that made me
01:17:07start to believe that maybe I'm not
01:17:09supposed to have these massive like 1
01:17:12inch 1 cm whatever heels soles that we
01:17:15all have on our shoes imagine if from
01:17:18the second a child was born we put a
01:17:20glove on both of their hands that was 1
01:17:22cmet de side imagine how like weak and
01:17:26pathetic their hands would be that's
01:17:27essentially what we're doing to our feet
01:17:30and so now I don't wear shoes that have
01:17:33a like a like a soul I have barefoot
01:17:37shoes yeah we're supposed to have a
01:17:39certain amount of inputs strengthwise
01:17:41and I think that we don't get those in a
01:17:46lot of ways I mean it's not just it's
01:17:47not just the shoes right it's also okay
01:17:50well why does everyone's back hurt
01:17:52because 80% of people people will
01:17:53experience back payment some point in
01:17:55their life and you go okay well you know
01:17:58we all sit 8 hours a day and we're not
01:18:01sitting like in the squatting position
01:18:03like we used to we're sitting in these
01:18:05chairs that are comfortable that take
01:18:07the um physical work we used to have to
01:18:09do just to keep our torso up off our
01:18:12back and so then when we go to say Lift
01:18:15something our back muscles are
01:18:16exceedingly weak and something happens
01:18:19and we get a problem right and you can
01:18:20extend that to many different problems
01:18:23like average pains that people have it's
01:18:25usually because our environments are set
01:18:26up to take the physical stress off our
01:18:29bodies but we eventually end up paying a
01:18:31price for that when we try and do
01:18:32something out of that very small comfort
01:18:36zone that we've built ourselves so in
01:18:37the case of you it's you know you had
01:18:41weakened your feet over time and then
01:18:43you add uh load onto them and they're
01:18:46not ready for that and that manifests
01:18:47itself as pain for another person it
01:18:50could be they sit at a desk all day and
01:18:52they just decid you know I'm going to go
01:18:53back into the gymm and they do one
01:18:55deadlift and their back just goes what
01:18:58are you doing and sends a bunch of pain
01:19:00there and it's a lot of different things
01:19:01shoulder shoulder pain a lot a lot of
01:19:03different pains are just manifestations
01:19:05of our modern environment and to avoid
01:19:07those you said 80% of people will
01:19:09experience back pain at some time yeah
01:19:10it's the most common pain that people
01:19:11will experience and it's also it has a
01:19:13huge economic toll it's yeah it's pretty
01:19:15crazy as soon as you said that my back
01:19:17started to feel painful I don't yeah so
01:19:18a very a very simple a very simple fix
01:19:21is spending more time sitting on the
01:19:22floor
01:19:23having your back um having to prop it up
01:19:26like I am now I'm not using the back
01:19:27rest you know if I do this your back has
01:19:29to do more work and even just that low
01:19:31level of work across time can help
01:19:33prevent some problems you said sitting
01:19:35on the floor yep sitting on the floor
01:19:37that helps with Mobility um when you're
01:19:38sitting on the floor you don't have this
01:19:39giant back rest that you can just melt
01:19:42into your um your body has to do work to
01:19:45keep yourself upright right and you're
01:19:47probably going to get uncomfortable at
01:19:49some point so you're going to shift
01:19:50around you're going to put your hips
01:19:51into different positions you're going to
01:19:52put your legs in different positions um
01:19:55it seems to help with mobility and with
01:19:57pain over time what are that's really
01:19:59useful because that's a small thing that
01:20:01I can do to to reduce my chances of
01:20:04being part of the 80% that will
01:20:06experience back pain sitting on the
01:20:07floor more often I can do that what are
01:20:09the other small day-to-day decisions
01:20:12that we could all make to give ourselves
01:20:15a little bit of healthy discomfort in
01:20:16our lives yeah so I I call this concept
01:20:19being a two-center and um it comes from
01:20:22a study that found that 2% of people
01:20:27take the stairs when there is also an
01:20:29escalator available
01:20:322% now 100% of those people knew that
01:20:35taking the stairs would give them a
01:20:38long-term benefit on their health right
01:20:40but only 2% taken and that's because
01:20:42we're a species who's wired to do the
01:20:44next comfortable thing even when it
01:20:46doesn't make sense in our comfortable
01:20:48environment so when I talk about being a
01:20:502center I'm talking about taking the
01:20:52acttion ual and the metaphorical stairs
01:20:54when you can what are the small things
01:20:56that you can do in daily life in order
01:20:59to add more activity more discomfort
01:21:02into your life in a way that is totally
01:21:04manageable that adds up to a giant
01:21:06return over time a giant return over
01:21:08time taking the stairs a giant return
01:21:10over time if you take the stairs every
01:21:12single time I guarantee that you will
01:21:14have better health than if you were to
01:21:16take that escalator and if you apply
01:21:17that across the board I mean something
01:21:19as simple as okay I have a work phone
01:21:23call I can sit in my office and take it
01:21:26in this sort of you know dim office or I
01:21:29can go take it while walking and I've
01:21:31snuck in a mile and a half of walking oh
01:21:34and by the way you know maybe next time
01:21:36I'm going to throw on a 10 PB rock or a
01:21:3920 lb Ruck and I'm going to be rcking
01:21:41while I take that phone call um I'm
01:21:43going to park in the parking lot that is
01:21:46like Siberia away from the grocery store
01:21:49right and it sounds like people's like
01:21:51people will say shrug their shoulders
01:21:52yeah everyone knows that it's like okay
01:21:53well why the hell doesn't anyone do it
01:21:55because they don't believe it matters
01:21:56because they don't believe it matters
01:21:58and the problem is is that we look at
01:21:59that act as just one individual act and
01:22:02go okay well that might only burn five
01:22:03more calories okay well what if you did
01:22:06that 10 times a day and extrapolated it
01:22:09over a lifetime I guarantee you will end
01:22:11up healthier and better off than if you
01:22:13consistently were doing the easier thing
01:22:15so where can I find those little 2% wins
01:22:17flow them into my life because once you
01:22:19start doing it you realize like oh not
01:22:22only is this very easy to do but I
01:22:24actually feel better when I do this
01:22:25stuff right you could carry your
01:22:27groceries like a lot of back pain would
01:22:29go away if people started carrying their
01:22:31groceries more often I can guarantee
01:22:33that but we don't do that and um so a
01:22:36lot of my work and thinking is how do we
01:22:38find those little winds across the day
01:22:40and pile them up I'm not saying that
01:22:43people should stop going to the gym and
01:22:45doing their normal routine but I am
01:22:46saying if you're looking at 24 hours in
01:22:50a day and you are doing the next easiest
01:22:54most comfortable most lazy thing for 23
01:22:56and 1/2 hours and you think that your 30
01:22:58minutes in the gym is going to recoup
01:23:01that you're missing you're missing the
01:23:03big picture that is not how humans are
01:23:05designed to live I was thinking as you
01:23:07were talking about how it compounds for
01:23:09or against you as well so in the example
01:23:11you gave about the taking the stairs
01:23:14versus the escalator might burn five
01:23:15calories and then you times that by 10
01:23:17you do it time you know then that's 50
01:23:19calories you're burning a day I was
01:23:21thinking is there a pounding element to
01:23:23this my brain decided there was because
01:23:26if you take the stairs and you burn
01:23:29calories and build up a little bit of
01:23:30muscle you then have more muscle to do
01:23:33more activities like that and I think I
01:23:35think it was Daniel liberman that told
01:23:37me about this concept of syence which is
01:23:39almost this downward spiral of M muscle
01:23:41Decay where you like lose muscle so you
01:23:44you do less activity so you lose muscle
01:23:46so you do less activity and that's the
01:23:48spiral downward for a lot of people that
01:23:49causes aging and death what we think of
01:23:51aging and ultimately death um and that's
01:23:54what I thought of in those small things
01:23:55I thought like it is going to compound
01:23:57for me if I do it more I'll be able to
01:23:59do it more so I'll probably do it more
01:24:02you know exactly no and you're
01:24:03absolutely right and you know the
01:24:05concept isn't even just physical it's
01:24:08it's psychological it's being willing to
01:24:10have the hard conversation you need to
01:24:11have with um your spouse being you know
01:24:15if you're working on a hard project our
01:24:17tendency is when the hard project gets
01:24:19hard what do we do we we check our cell
01:24:20phone we go I'm going to get up and get
01:24:22caught
01:24:23being willing to go through put in that
01:24:24extra little work to kind of push
01:24:26through that thing that's just going to
01:24:27be a little bit harder I think
01:24:29ultimately leads to the biggest
01:24:30transformation and breakthroughs I used
01:24:33to think you could change your beliefs
01:24:35you know and then I really got quite
01:24:38obsessed with figuring out if you could
01:24:40choose a different belief and I
01:24:42concluded that you couldn't because
01:24:43there's no belief in my life that I
01:24:44genuinely believe that I now if my
01:24:46family was held at gunpoint could
01:24:48genuinely change I could lie but I
01:24:50couldn't actually change the belief so I
01:24:51thought what a beliefs and concluded
01:24:53that they are essentially a stack of
01:24:55evidence that we've accepted as
01:24:56subjectively true and that is governing
01:24:58Our Lives it's telling us who we are and
01:25:00how we show up especially in situations
01:25:02of discomfort it's the I remember I had
01:25:04Chris Eubank Jr on the podcast and he's
01:25:06like a world championship boxer and he
01:25:08said to me if I'm home alone and I get
01:25:10to mile 9 on the treadmill and I told
01:25:12myself I was going to do 10 I will limp
01:25:15um and I get cramp in my leg I have to
01:25:17limp The Last Mile even if no one's
01:25:19watching because quote I can't let the
01:25:21demons in
01:25:23what he's what he's saying there is I
01:25:24can't let a new self story emerge that
01:25:28I'm the type of person that quits when
01:25:30it's hard because in round 12 of a
01:25:32championship boxing fight that story
01:25:34will emerge when I'm on the stool and I
01:25:35want to quit this idea and it kind of
01:25:38goes back to you're saying about the
01:25:38stairs that all of these small things
01:25:41are compounding psychologically to tell
01:25:43us a story about who we are and our
01:25:44relationship with discomfort and that
01:25:46like you know the greatest way to
01:25:50influence our self story is to start
01:25:53keeping uncomfortable commitments with
01:25:55ourselves and that will compound for us
01:25:57over time yeah and then once you take
01:25:59the stairs you you be like okay maybe I
01:26:01could do that run that three mile run oh
01:26:04now I'm doing five I think that you know
01:26:07you're right about the stories we tell
01:26:09ourselves and where they come from but
01:26:12you can change the experiences that you
01:26:14have right so your experiences will
01:26:16change that set of beliefs it's like the
01:26:19story I told about me spending the month
01:26:22in the Arctic I didn't think I could
01:26:23ever do that and I hadn't ever had any
01:26:28reason to be that deeply appreciative of
01:26:32the world today I had to go have this
01:26:35experience that changed my perception
01:26:37evidence right I could tell myself all
01:26:40day yeah hot running water's great but
01:26:42did I ever feel that emotionally like a
01:26:44legit emotional connection and this like
01:26:46oh my God like you peel the veil back no
01:26:48I had to go do um I had to have an
01:26:50experience outside of your comfort zone
01:26:52outside of my comfort zone right an
01:26:53experience that um was tough and
01:26:56chall