00:06 now it's my pleasure to introduce our
00:08 moderator the Reverend Amy Heller mother
00:12 Amy is the senior chaplain at the
00:13 Episcopal School of Dallas and served as
00:15 associate rector of Church of the
00:17 Transfiguration chaplain to the school
00:19 at parish episcopal and i first met Amy
00:21 when she was here as an associate for
00:23 adult formation we're fortunate to have
00:26 her back with us tonight please welcome
00:28 the Reverend Amy Heller
00:37 thank you it's a delight to welcome you
00:40 all to st. Michael and all angels and
00:42 before I introduce our panelists let us
00:44 be and share among being prayer and
00:47 share a moment of quiet as we gather our
00:49 thoughts together to build community in
00:51 this evening we share let us pray
00:56 loving God we thank you for the gift of
00:59 our human family and our ability to bear
01:01 your image to one another we thank you
01:05 for our individuality and our shared
01:07 holiness that moves in and through us
01:09 into our world tonight in our time
01:12 together may our hearts and minds be
01:14 open to listening to one another and to
01:16 a renewed understanding of the many ways
01:18 your holy people live their faith in you
01:21 bless us with a holy curiosity a heart
01:25 of compassion in a sense of shared life
01:29 to you O Lord be all honor and praise
01:31 this night and always amen
01:37 well it's wonderful to welcome our
01:39 panelists this evening beginning to my
01:42 rabbi David Stern chief rabbi at Temple
01:45 Emmanuel here in Dallas in Center Imam
01:48 Omar Suleiman director of the Islamic
01:50 learning foundation of Texas and
01:53 resident scholar at Valley Ranch Islamic
01:55 center and at the far right reverend dr.
01:57 Krista Radha rector here at Saint
01:59 Michael all angels it's a fun for me to
02:03 learn that they are getting to know one
02:05 another and building their collegial
02:06 relationships with one another and so we
02:08 really have an evening ahead of us of
02:11 listening in on their conversations as
02:13 they grow in friendship and fellowship
02:15 with one another in the different ways
02:18 that they serve faith communities in our
02:20 shared city so as we begin I have an
02:23 opening question for you all the
02:25 question is this what is a commonly held
02:27 misconception of your tradition and what
02:31 would you like us to know about that
02:35 I miss self-deception and we'll go from
02:38 I would never presume to answer first I
02:47 thought that was your answer held
03:15 I would say commonly held misconception
03:18 might be that the Jewish community is in
03:25 some way monolithic in either its
03:28 political or spiritual attitudes and as
03:32 any Jew will tell you the joke the Jews
03:35 would use like tell about ourselves as
03:37 to Jews three opinions which is not only
03:43 a joke but sort of an ethos the Judaism
03:47 is built on a spirit of argument and
03:51 multiplication of ideas so I would say
03:54 any impression of the Jewish community
03:55 that veers towards the monolithic is
03:58 probably missing something central about
04:00 who we are and how we roll I don't think
04:06 anyone has any misconceptions
04:12 Media does a great job of representing
04:14 us where do I start sort of bullet
04:21 points there is less than you know we
04:25 make up less than 1% of the population
04:27 here in the United States and we have
04:28 not secretly launched a takeover of the
04:31 country we're not trying to replace the
04:34 Constitution which Syria law we don't
04:36 want to kill everybody we're just as
04:41 curious as to where Isis came from as
04:46 we don't oppress women in our tradition
04:51 our tradition is not one that oh oh you
04:53 know okay that's the one that's that's
04:56 that's the one I'll focus on just for a
04:58 moment and I think it plays into a
05:00 larger narrative that Islam is a cause
05:02 of destruction and regression and I'd
05:06 like people to just take a moment to
05:08 consider that we are a 1,400 year olds
05:12 religion and that within Islam you had
05:16 the birth of hospitals and medicine the
05:19 first University in the world was
05:20 founded by a Muslim woman our country
05:24 here in the United States has yet to
05:26 elect a woman president the largest
05:28 Muslim country in the world does anyone
05:29 know where the largest Muslim country in
05:31 the world is Indonesian Asian has
05:35 already had two female prime ministers
05:38 so associating Islam with regression
05:41 particularly the oppression of women and
05:44 holding women back where some of the
05:46 greatest female scholarship has been
05:48 produced from the Muslim world over the
05:50 last fourteen hundred years I think is
05:52 very dishonest and disingenuous so I
05:55 think Islam being associated with
05:57 regression and particularly within that
05:59 regression the oppression of women talk
06:02 about the other stuff later yeah that's
06:05 I probably say one of the common
06:08 misconceptions would be the Christians
06:10 are judgmental that we seek only to
06:14 convert or change anyone we meet and I
06:19 have conversations all the time
06:20 especially with those who don't belong
06:22 to a faith community that they're afraid
06:24 to show up at a church because they
06:26 assume that we'll kind of get our claws
06:29 and them and want to make sure that they
06:31 change who they are in order to be the
06:35 kind of person God wants them to be and
06:38 I think it's so much bigger than that
06:41 it's more Invitational than it is
06:44 judgmental it's a commonly this held
06:47 misconception I think of the faith it
06:51 may not be a misconception of the people
07:02 all right I think again I'll open-ended
07:06 is to who wants to respond first but
07:08 it's a wonderful question that came
07:10 ahead of time from some of someone out
07:12 here do we pray to the same God it's
07:18 good softball Amy yeah I just thought
07:21 I love it theological so I mean I guess
07:27 I'll start on this one that the name
07:30 Allah is actually the same name word
07:35 that is used in the Arabic Bible it's
07:36 what Arab Christians believe it or not
07:38 Arab Christians say Allah Akbar which
07:41 means God is greater so the name Allah
07:45 refers to what Jesus peace be upon him
07:48 would have said alors Allah refers to
07:51 the same god of Moses
07:53 may God's peace and blessings be upon
07:55 him and so we have an understanding in
07:58 our faith that at least that we are not
08:00 only are we calling upon the same God
08:02 that Jews and Christians call upon but
08:06 in fact the Quran says when you speak to
08:09 when you speak to the people of the book
08:11 there if you guys look up there was an
08:13 interfaith initiative called a common
08:14 word that was initiated a few years ago
08:17 started between Muslims and Catholics
08:19 and spread it's based on a verse in the
08:23 Quran which says say o people of the
08:25 book which refers to the Jews and the
08:26 Christians come to a common word that we
08:29 worship our God and your God and our God
08:33 Enoch Oklahoma it out and out life your
08:35 God and our God is one so in Islam we
08:37 have a very clear understanding that we
08:40 are in fact calling upon the same God of
08:42 Abraham Moses Jesus and Muhammad may
08:44 peace and blessings be upon them all
08:45 thank you I mean I would just echo to
08:50 say that we all I think understand that
08:54 our Abrahamic root is the same and
08:58 although in every tradition not just the
09:02 three defined here but as Rabbi Stearns
09:05 already said there are different
09:06 branches within each of these groups
09:07 that its branches off of that same root
09:11 and the way that we understand the
09:13 creator may be different but that the
09:17 creator is the same I would echo that
09:24 and say that it's probably an act of
09:32 human hubris to put the master of all
09:39 the universe in a definitional box of
09:43 human creation so I would echo what my
09:48 colleagues and friends have said by
09:50 saying that it is in fact in some ways a
09:55 violation of God's sovereignty to treat
09:58 God's sovereignty too narrowly
10:01 and that it's fundamental to my sense of
10:08 faith to say that there is one God that
10:11 we find different paths to that we have
10:13 different expressions of the change
10:16 within our own traditions over time that
10:19 are different in any one moment across a
10:21 society and it seems to be fundamental
10:25 to a monotheistic conviction to say that
10:31 okay well keeping in that vein and maybe
10:33 we're gonna we're gonna wander through
10:35 history a little bit why is it that each
10:39 of the religions that you serve and that
10:42 we are part of focus on differences and
10:46 not similarities answered first the last
10:52 time yeah it's chrisstambo intersection
10:57 I think it's human nature to try and
11:01 define yourself by saying what someone
11:05 else is or is not that that's that's
11:08 normal natural I think that it's not
11:11 perhaps the most mature way to do it but
11:16 very understandable and so I think over
11:19 time it has you think within Christian
11:22 denominations right so so many hundreds
11:25 and hundreds every time a church splits
11:30 it's because someone thinks that they
11:34 know something right that the other
11:36 people do not know or they believe that
11:40 they can somehow agree on stuff that
11:45 this other group cannot agree on and I
11:48 think you know it's difficult to ever
11:49 say if your starting place is that we're
11:52 all going to agree on everything I think
11:53 you sort of fail at the start to kind of
11:57 link back to what we've already
11:58 discussed I always feel like God is
12:01 always bigger than anything we can ever
12:04 understand that our task is to try and
12:08 it's that effort to try that helps shape
12:12 us over time but to presume that we have
12:15 figured out that God is this box it's
12:19 just a fallacy I I treasure difference
12:26 treasure distinctiveness the same way I
12:29 want my children to treasure
12:30 distinctiveness and not have to blend
12:32 into some great homogenized whole I
12:38 think the challenge is to affirm
12:41 difference without letting that
12:42 difference lapse into hostility or
12:44 antagonism but seems to me that identity
12:47 either individually or communally
12:49 depends upon acts of distinction and I
12:51 think strives for distinctiveness if
12:53 that doesn't doesn't mean we don't
12:54 recognize commonality across those
12:56 distinctions but I treasure it you know
13:02 in the in our faith tradition we have a
13:08 a few layers of brotherhood so first
13:10 there is one of the early Islamic
13:12 scholars Laveau's Adi recognized a few
13:15 different layers of brotherhood so they
13:17 said first there's the Adam II of the
13:19 the children of Adam the Brotherhood and
13:21 sisterhood amongst the children of Adam
13:22 that there is a universal brotherhood
13:24 that exists there and then it becomes a
13:27 Brahimi an Abrahamic that there is
13:29 another closeness or a distinction of
13:31 Abrahamic brotherhood those who who who
13:35 claim the father Abraham peace be upon
13:40 him and then there is the brotherhood
13:42 with in Christ and Islam and that
13:43 Muslims also affirm a position a unique
13:47 distinction in position of Jesus Christ
13:49 peace be upon him and then there is a
13:51 which is the Muhammad's those who
13:54 believe in the Prophet Muhammad peace be
13:56 affirming a brotherhood amongst
13:57 themselves but then it's really
13:59 interesting because these obviously get
14:01 closer and closer and closer and there
14:03 are differences even amongst the
14:04 followers of the Prophet Muhammad peace
14:06 be upon him but the verse in the Quran
14:09 and every time I get asked what my
14:11 politics are I say that there's one
14:14 verse in the Quran that sums up my
14:15 politics well I thought column not any
14:17 atom we have honored and dignified the
14:20 child of Adam and so the children of
14:22 Adam are to be dignified when there are
14:24 political agendas at play division is
14:29 the tool of people in power to distract
14:34 to distract you from from actually
14:37 focusing on what's keeping society down
14:40 so division is a very it's very easy to
14:43 point to someone who's different than
14:45 you and say that's your problem not me
14:48 and if you figure that problem out then
14:52 everything will suddenly disappear and
14:56 you know I don't want to get too
14:57 political here not yet at least that I
14:59 want you guys to like me at least for
15:00 the first 30 minutes because once I
15:04 start getting too political they see but
15:06 what I would say is that that's where
15:08 that's where sectarianism
15:10 that's where division becomes ripe is
15:13 when there is an agenda at play and
15:15 there's something to be gained from
15:17 dividing people and it's just a simple
15:20 question that we should ask who benefits
15:22 from our division who benefits from this
15:25 idea of the clash of civilizations
15:27 extremist groups here and abroad of
15:30 different faiths and flavours all all
15:34 you know are able to fester because of
15:38 these this this idea that civilizations
15:41 are a constant and constant strife and
15:44 that two groups of people cannot get
15:46 along and so we have to always be in
15:48 strife and always be fighting the other
15:49 so that we don't actually rectify
15:51 ourselves and I'll follow that thread we
15:54 often talk about differences as
15:58 problematic and so when I've been to
16:03 interfaith discussions like this or even
16:05 interdenominational ecumenical or
16:07 it does seem like there's a tendency to
16:09 want to reduce things down to the most
16:10 common denominator right so to try and
16:13 go water it down and distill it down as
16:15 far as we can so that we're all the same
16:18 rather than acknowledging the
16:21 differences and then seeking to
16:23 understand them and it's that lack of
16:26 understanding of the differences that
16:27 exist that I think actually causes a lot
16:31 of the mistrust and the growth of hatred
16:34 and perhaps even allows people like us
16:40 to to allow I suppose that kind of hate
16:47 and bigotry and intolerance to hate to
16:50 say thrive but maybe well I I do so I'll
16:56 be political so you don't have to be so
16:57 but I think the part of the
17:02 part of what the current cultural
17:04 climate does I think is give
17:06 disagreement a bad name because
17:09 difference and distinction means
17:11 disagreement and disagreement again can
17:13 be a very healthy engine if it's in a
17:15 healthy society Omar and I disagree we
17:19 have lots of serious and deep
17:21 conversations with one another as
17:22 colleagues and friends and there are
17:24 things we agree on clearly and there are
17:25 things we disagree on clearly those
17:27 disagreements are precious to me they
17:30 help me clarify my own thinking they
17:32 force me to develop empathy for the
17:33 thinking of someone for whom I have
17:35 boundless regard and so I think that the
17:39 problem is that now that everything is
17:42 so toxic we become afraid of
17:44 disagreement right and that's to our own
17:47 detriment and so I would echo what
17:50 you're saying Chris I think that the the
17:51 the lowest common denominator thing is
17:55 not only misrepresentative and dull it's
17:59 dangerous because it casts disagreement
18:02 somehow as kryptonite and thereby limits
18:05 our capacity to understand each other ok
18:09 so I want to be a little more personal
18:10 and reflective for each of you for a
18:12 moment in your tradition and in your
18:14 faith identity what is the most
18:16 beautiful or loving part of that that
18:18 you value the most just in your personal
18:20 identity as as your purpose 8 that you
18:24 live what is it that you say when I wake
18:25 up in the morning this is what I love
18:27 about being Who I am and the faith that
18:29 I hold dear you shall love the stranger
18:33 for you were strangers in the land of
18:35 Egypt you stay a little bit more for
18:39 yeah I'm not the sound guy again
18:50 rabbi Stern if a higher church voice I'd
18:54 use it you shall love the stranger for
18:58 you were strangers in the land of Egypt
19:01 the reminder that the recognition of the
19:06 dignity and the divinity inherent in the
19:11 other is at the core of the Jewish
19:16 covenant with God that is a source of
19:19 pride and beauty to me and as Chris said
19:22 earlier that doesn't mean there's always
19:25 a difference between the doctrine and
19:27 how it's enacted by complicated
19:29 communities that doesn't mean that we
19:32 all the time I would even try to guess a
19:34 percentage of the time that we get it
19:36 right but that is a horizon of decency
19:40 and justice and holiness for me that I
19:43 am that I feel blessed that it shines a
19:47 light on my way so I would from at the
19:53 theological level the I would say
19:56 clarity as a Muslim there's there's
19:59 great clarity in our theology as to who
20:02 God is what his attributes are we begin
20:04 everything that we do in the name of God
20:06 the most compassionate the most merciful
20:08 that's how we there's a very personal
20:10 relationship that we're able to develop
20:12 with God and so we call upon him in the
20:13 name of God the most compassionate the
20:15 most merciful there's also a connection
20:19 to to a multitude of prophets so i you
20:23 know i when i speak to someone who is
20:25 jewish i learn as they are speaking
20:29 about the old testament and some of the
20:31 stories of the prophets that came before
20:32 because in my tradition we affirm those
20:34 prophets and when we speak of jesus
20:37 christ peace be upon him danaiah then i
20:40 can relate to that i take great interest
20:42 and who he was and what his mission was
20:44 and and have something to relate to
20:47 there so there is a there's this there's
20:49 a wholesome theological clarity
20:51 but then at the societal level Islam has
20:56 a very clear social justice tradition
21:01 it's a liberation theology at its core
21:03 that's that that's what's made it
21:06 appealing to many of the great civil
21:11 rights leaders and activists that we
21:12 that we that we've had and enjoyed in
21:14 this country and elsewhere there's a
21:15 there's a great there's an explicit anti
21:17 racism tradition the last sermon of the
21:20 Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was
21:21 or the second sentence of that last
21:24 sermon was that there's no superiority
21:27 of a white man over a black man or of an
21:29 Arab over a non-arab there's an explicit
21:32 anti racism tradition there's an
21:34 explicit tradition of treating people
21:37 with dignity and with honor and with
21:39 love and compassion even if they don't
21:41 belong to your faith so they're it's
21:43 it's the how pristine those concepts are
21:46 and we can find a lot of those concepts
21:49 that are under you know they're at the
21:51 core of our messages of loving the
21:52 neighbor do to others which you would
21:54 want to be done to you those are things
21:56 but I'd say this that I often find that
22:02 that a lot of the things that people
22:04 think about Muslims are actually true
22:06 about Christ are true about Moses are
22:10 true about what I mean by that is that I
22:13 think that the sanitizing of Christ the
22:17 sanitizing of Moses the sanitizing of
22:20 these great prophets you know and I say
22:23 peace be upon them and it might annoy
22:24 annoy you sometimes but that we say that
22:27 after the name of the prophets and and
22:30 consistently that Jesus was a man that
22:34 was radically devoted to justice and I
22:39 can appreciate that and yes yes there's
22:42 turned the other cheek
22:43 but there's also there's also a Jesus
22:46 that was angry when there was injustice
22:50 and that spoke out against it and I
22:52 think that when you look at the prophets
22:53 of God they were not they were not
22:56 pacifists in the sense that they did not
22:58 take a passive attitude towards the
23:01 injustice in their societies they were
23:03 theology but their theology transformed
23:07 their societies and they were able to
23:08 connect that to the vulnerable and
23:10 profits were never popular with power
23:13 structures so you know power structure
23:19 is always appropriate and commodify
23:21 profits but they were never popular with
23:25 power structures and so to me that's
23:27 what I can draw from that explicit
23:29 social justice tradition that's
23:32 amplified in the lives of all of those
23:34 prophets as they're told within the
23:35 Islamic corpus I think in for Christian
23:41 different Christian groups there are
23:43 moments in the story of Christ that seem
23:48 fundamental perhaps the number one most
23:52 important and that's perhaps shifted for
23:57 me some in my life but in my as an adult
24:01 what has meant most to me is the idea of
24:04 the Incarnation right when Christ was
24:07 incarnate in the world God came into the
24:10 world present in this person of Jesus of
24:14 Nazareth there's so much that can be
24:17 done with that idea so much richness
24:20 that we can understand about God's
24:21 compassion and love and presence
24:24 faithfulness but where I think that
24:27 impacts me is in the social sense that
24:30 every person in this room God's
24:33 incarnation happens with each one of us
24:36 in small ways that we have God in us
24:40 right that God Ness is something that
24:47 it's not something we can lose and there
24:49 are plenty of Christian traditions I
24:52 think in theological ideas that sort of
24:54 starts with we are bad and need to
24:57 become good and I think that there's
25:00 plenty that says that we are good and
25:04 lose our way and that there's this
25:06 constant return and turning and
25:09 reconciliation that happens on our
25:12 journey and it's that turn and
25:14 repentance over and over and over again
25:16 gods in US and it's an inconvenient
25:19 truth for me as a Christian that God is
25:23 in every person because I don't like
25:26 every person and even the people who cut
25:31 me off on the street or who yell at me
25:34 or who do frustrating things or who hurt
25:37 other people you name it
25:39 God still there somewhere could be so so
25:43 buried but we're called to love God and
25:47 love our neighbor and we're called to
25:49 love our neighbor because God's in there
25:51 somewhere and it's through the love that
25:55 we share with one another that we help
25:57 that kind of blossom and shine as we as
26:05 I noticed the time I believe the women
26:07 of st. Michael will be collecting those
26:09 questions so pass them to an end I think
26:12 this way and then we'll have a second
26:16 round of our questioning in process but
26:19 we have plenty plenty to talk about and
26:21 wonder about together I'm mindful of the
26:23 fact that we are all people of books one
26:26 book a holy book that is central to the
26:28 story and of course how we read our
26:32 sacred texts is very important and so
26:35 I'm just wondering sort of the approach
26:39 the literal approach the metaphorical
26:40 approach how does each tradition speak
26:42 to the reading of sacred texts whether
26:44 through worship or study and how is that
26:47 how it might there be differences
26:49 amongst the different faith traditions
26:51 or even better to understand
26:53 similarities in the big Christian
26:58 pantheon of denominations there are so
27:02 many answers to that question as an
27:06 Anglican Christian Episcopalian Anglican
27:08 Christian we root ourselves in Scripture
27:11 first and then develop from Scripture
27:16 through our tradition and then we
27:18 welcome in the idea of reason so our
27:22 experience our faithful experience in
27:24 the world is meant to also
27:26 inform how we live so scripture is
27:31 central it is the beginning but I think
27:35 there are lots of Christians who have
27:38 start from a place of liberalism and I
27:42 will tell I tell my Bible studies and
27:44 groups that I don't think that it's good
27:47 to read the Bible literally I would much
27:50 prefer that you read it literately
27:52 and that reading it literately is what
27:56 most don't do because most haven't
27:58 actually read the whole thing and it's
28:02 not until you see how grand it really is
28:08 that I think you can appreciate the
28:11 complexity it is just it's not possible
28:16 to read our both the Old and New
28:19 Testaments literally because they
28:22 literally contradicted themselves
28:24 throughout the texts right and so that
28:28 those kinds of specific contradictions
28:31 are okay so long as you are a literate
28:36 reader and a faithful reader I like to
28:39 tell children when we give them copies
28:41 of the Bible that it isn't a book but
28:44 it's really a library of books and that
28:47 you can't simply go front to back as if
28:50 it's chapter 1 and chapter 2 of 1 nice
28:54 novel but instead it's this rich
28:58 incredible poetic and narrative and
29:01 historic collection of different stories
29:05 that sort of turn the crystal of truth
29:08 and you can't just ever pick one verse
29:13 and say that is everything although
29:18 people do it all the time right you can
29:20 find a verse in the Bible to defend
29:22 pretty much anything that's not a
29:25 literate understanding and so it's
29:28 incumbent upon us to go at it as both
29:33 intellectual but also faithful and to
29:36 let it speak to us over time and to
29:38 continue to read it all the time
29:40 but I'm gonna guess that more Christians
29:45 than not have never read the whole thing
29:48 and that's probably a good place to
29:51 start so there is a social experiment
29:58 where you guys can look it up online
30:01 there's a person I believe it was done
30:03 in the Netherlands who took a copy of
30:06 the Bible but wrapped it with a cover of
30:09 the Quran I've seen oh yeah it's like a
30:11 street and you should look this up read
30:13 this read this verse from the Quran and
30:15 people would read it and go oh my god
30:17 that's I can't believe it says that they
30:18 are they are who we thought they were
30:20 that's right right and he takes off the
30:24 the wrapper and shows it's a Bible and
30:27 so it's actually quite and this is so as
30:30 Muslims we believe in the original
30:32 format of those texts as they were
30:34 revealed to their - to the prophets
30:36 again we hold all of these people as
30:38 prophets and there were original
30:40 revelations that over time different
30:42 translations and different versions may
30:45 have departed from the original text but
30:47 it's really interesting because and I'm
30:50 just gonna this is in defense of my
30:52 faith and and you know David you know
30:54 how much I love you so don't get
30:56 offended by this all right but uh if
30:58 statistically speaking if you take the
31:00 verses of violence from the Old
31:03 Testament the New Testament and the
31:04 Quran the percentage of the Old
31:06 Testament don't get mad
31:08 I'm not bad all right let's keep this
31:11 yeah it's like 5.8%
31:13 the New Testament was 2.8 the Quran was
31:16 2.3 so we're we're pretty you know
31:26 but but it's it's it's interesting to me
31:29 because Islamophobes an extremist preach
31:32 the exact same Islam yeah I mean I'm not
31:35 gonna lie the President and and you know
31:37 some of those people they sound exactly
31:39 alike when they talk about my religion
31:41 I'm like you guys should get in the room
31:42 and talk about your Islam and can you
31:44 keep it somewhere and can we build a
31:47 wall and keep you guys on one side so
31:49 that the rest of the 1.8 billion Muslims
31:52 in the world can keep practicing the way
31:53 they've been practicing the Quran is to
31:58 us the Word of God it is it is the
32:01 literal word of God to us so it's it's a
32:03 little different in that sense from a
32:05 theological perspective the the role
32:07 that the Quran plays in the life of the
32:09 Muslim for 1400 years that's been
32:11 preserved in its original text there are
32:13 no versions of the flam and Muslim
32:16 Muslims throughout history have
32:18 intentionally maintained the original
32:21 recitation of the Quran in Arabic and
32:23 that's why though there are many
32:24 translations of the Quran and it was
32:26 translated into persian by one of the
32:28 Companions of the Prophet Muhammad peace
32:30 be upon him still there is this
32:32 insistence sort of like Syria
32:34 Christianity right the Persian Church in
32:36 the fourth century and 5th century
32:38 recited and you know and Syriac to stay
32:41 as close to the Aramaic of Christ peace
32:44 be upon him so there's this insistence
32:46 on the originality of the text and
32:47 maintaining the text and reading the
32:49 text as it is and that's part of the
32:51 beauty of it in that uniformity that you
32:54 can have a child in in China or a child
32:56 in Somalia and they're all reciting the
32:59 exact same Quran so for 1,400 years
33:01 there's that consistency that's there
33:03 with the fourth it's about 600 pages it
33:05 is memorized by millions of people
33:09 it's memorized by thousands of people in
33:11 Dallas if you're scared poof
33:13 thousands and loosed thousands of people
33:15 that memorize the Koran word for word
33:18 here in Dallas Texas right that's or
33:20 maybe honey no we got thousands I think
33:22 we got thousands we got a lot of a lot
33:24 of schools here I shouldn't have said
33:28 but um but the point being is that we
33:32 have that uniformity right that's
33:33 maintained by the recitation of the
33:34 Quran however there's a clear
33:36 understanding that the interpretation of
33:38 the Quran is in the life of the Prophet
33:40 Muhammad peace be upon him so for
33:42 example if you were to take a verse of
33:44 the Quran and say the Quran encourages
33:47 domestic violence it tells you to beat
33:49 your wives but then the wife of the
33:51 Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him says
33:53 that he never hit a woman or a servant
33:56 to her child the interpretation of the
33:59 Quran in Islamic theology is the Prophet
34:01 Muhammad peace be upon him because if
34:03 you want to miss translate something if
34:04 you want to take a word or take a verse
34:06 out of context I don't care if you're
34:08 reading Harry Potter right I don't care
34:10 what you're reading you could turn it
34:12 into a violent scripture so the
34:14 interpretation of the Quran starts with
34:16 the way that it was practiced by the
34:18 prophet and his companions and then then
34:20 it goes to scholarship and language and
34:22 and there are certainly verses of the
34:25 Quran that have to be read in context
34:26 just like any book in any scripture so
34:29 that they do not beat so that they are
34:31 not hijacked by people that either are
34:35 to be made extreme through it or people
34:38 that are to try to portray the face as
34:40 extreme so the Quran is sacred to us it
34:43 is the Word of God it's the speech of
34:46 but there's context there's
34:48 interpretation but we also have
34:50 principles that govern the
34:51 interpretation so that that uniformity
34:53 is still maintained I think that's one
34:55 of the things that we we take pride in
34:57 there's people praying the same way in
34:59 reciting the Quran all over the world in
35:01 different contexts and I've been doing
35:03 so for over millennia
35:05 how common would the understanding be
35:07 that muhammad is his life is actually
35:15 sort of the way in which you interpret
35:18 the rest of it i don't know that i've
35:20 heard anyone say it like that before so
35:24 this is where ninety ninety percent
35:29 usually when you hear sunni shia you're
35:31 thinking about iraq or iran because
35:34 that's in the geopolitical terminology
35:36 that's when it starts to come about but
35:38 the vast majority of Muslims around the
35:41 which means soon which is the life of
35:43 the Prophet the way of the Prophet peace
35:45 be upon him but that means is that his
35:47 life and his words are authoritative
35:50 they they have they carry authority and
35:52 they they are the first place to go to
35:54 and interpreting the plan otherwise the
35:57 interpretation is not governed by any by
36:00 any anything that is divine itself and
36:05 so we believe that the prophets spoke in
36:07 a way that was divine and they acted in
36:09 a way that was divine so every prophet
36:11 was infallible in this level so the
36:13 prophets lived the message in the best
36:15 way and so you look to them first and
36:17 then you have differences and obviously
36:19 evolving contexts and sometimes where
36:21 some texts might not be appliable
36:22 applicable so I think that we try to
36:25 have a balance between the letter and
36:27 the spirit of the law you know try to
36:29 maintain both and certainly benefit from
36:32 the wisdom of other texts the wisdom of
36:34 other scholars the wisdom we we take
36:37 from stories of the Old Testament and
36:39 stories of the prophets that came before
36:41 but then the authority what is the final
36:43 authority if you will that's that's
36:45 where it becomes that way I'm interested
36:47 to know what David's gonna say here
36:48 because when I listen to you talk about
36:51 interpreting through the Prophet I mean
36:53 I think for for Christians where we most
36:58 often almost every time disagree is not
37:03 what Jesus said or did it's all the
37:07 other stuff and as a as Kris what do you
37:13 mean by all the other stuff yeah well
37:15 say what are you talking about yeah well
37:17 for example like letters of Paul right
37:20 where Paul as a as a I mean say a
37:25 prophet an apostle was planting churches
37:29 all over the place and then when those
37:30 churches would run into trouble or they
37:32 didn't understand something or someone
37:33 would ask a question then they would
37:35 write to him and then he would write
37:36 them back and so his letters in case
37:39 that's not commonly understood he's
37:41 answering a specific group of people in
37:43 a specific place about a specific
37:45 question or questions but what often
37:49 happens is that specific answer for
37:54 is then extrapolated to everyone in all
37:58 and it's often where it flies in the
38:02 face of perhaps what we see about Jesus
38:08 is kind of radical inclusion right
38:11 he always did the stuff that people
38:14 didn't like and we naturally kind of our
38:19 human nature is to begin to take what is
38:21 very broad and narrow it and most of the
38:26 time I think if you look back in the way
38:28 the different denominational groups have
38:30 split over time it's often about
38:34 theology that roots itself in not the
38:38 Gospels and I often will in Bible
38:43 studies encourage people to say okay so
38:45 you read that say in an Old Testament
38:47 book or in a New Testament letter what
38:51 do you think based on how Jesus lived
38:54 that the answer might be and it's that
38:58 step of interpreting through the Prophet
39:01 or through Christ that I don't see
39:06 happen as often as I wish can I if I if
39:10 I may here this is something that
39:11 reading into a lot of times we try to
39:15 read into scripture what's not there but
39:17 we want it to be there so badly that we
39:19 will twist concepts so that I can't so
39:21 that we can somehow validate our own
39:24 approaches and our our our intentions
39:28 and that's very dangerous when you're
39:31 reading scripture that you either look
39:33 solely for inspiration when you want to
39:35 so the the Holy Scripture turns into you
39:39 know a website of quotes so I'm looking
39:41 for a good quote for my wedding card I'm
39:43 looking for a good quote on the word
39:44 search keyword searches and stuff like
39:46 which which now that there is not for
39:48 that there's a lot for the calamity
39:50 you know you can you can literally do
39:52 that so I'm looking for a verse on this
39:54 right now yet but it's not it's just to
39:56 give me some sort of inspiration right
39:58 now to make me feel good about my
40:00 situation or to quote at somebody
40:02 so rather than religion being a tool or
40:04 scripture being a tool that humbles me
40:07 and then instructs me I abuse it to
40:10 instruct or judge or throw at somebody
40:14 without living it at all the most
40:17 beautiful description of the Prophet
40:19 Muhammad peace be upon him that that I
40:20 found and it's challenging is that his
40:24 wife was asked after he passed the way
40:26 she said how would you describe him you
40:29 could describe him in one sentence and
40:31 she said he was a walking foot on that's
40:35 how she described he was a walking ad to
40:38 me that's beautiful because a lot of
40:40 times we know this is clergy there's
40:42 that great play that was that that was
40:44 that I forgot I think it was called the
40:47 Christians actually it was about a clerk
40:48 yeah yeah yeah you guys all yeah so the
40:50 the departure once you're in the public
40:52 space especially as clergy you in in the
40:58 process of preaching it's very easy to
41:00 fall into hypocrisy and very easy to
41:02 have a different life at home and be
41:04 perceived in such a different way by
41:05 your family and by those who see you
41:07 frequently and I think that's across the
41:09 board for for clergy or public figures
41:11 as a whole so hearing his wife describe
41:14 him as a walking foot on that means that
41:17 he practiced everything that he preached
41:19 and to me that is the ultimate goal is
41:21 that this is the standard this is
41:23 perfection this is where I need to get
41:25 to whether it's in my family life and my
41:27 social life and community life and
41:28 there's some times where you read the
41:29 stories of these sages and you say well
41:32 I can't get there and sometimes actually
41:33 discouraging like these stories of
41:35 selflessness and sacrifice and mercy and
41:37 compassion that is so far beyond
41:39 anything that I've ever been able to
41:43 so sometimes it's like well that was
41:44 them and so I'm you know I'm not going
41:48 to even try to do what's in my capacity
41:49 for me the way I read that is this is
41:52 the standard this is what I need to try
41:54 to attain this is what I need to try to
41:55 get to though I never will be I never
41:58 will be Christ I never will be Muhammad
42:01 we'll be Moses I can try to be those
42:03 people I can try to be those men and I
42:05 can try my best to live up to what they
42:07 did and so the scripture the text has to
42:11 challenge me to get better not be used
42:13 by me to make me complacent with my
42:16 situation or worse to for nefarious you
42:21 know for nefarious aims I'll be a little
42:26 contrarian because I think this isn't
42:34 distinction first why to talk about
42:37 Bible study here at st. Michael is to
42:40 what you have to recognize the history
42:42 of superb Bible teaching that's taken
42:44 place in this church that's the first
42:46 thing of which Chris is a discipline
42:49 which Chris carries forward in in
42:51 splendid ways so I want to say that I
42:54 also should say which I should have said
42:56 the beginning which is that on on Omar's
42:58 behalf and on my own to thank you all
42:59 for your hospitality and having us here
43:02 certainly better parking here than I get
43:04 a temple manual I I get the trope of
43:14 Jesus Mohammed Moses but I think to
43:17 would you it doesn't really ring true
43:18 right for a couple reasons first Judaism
43:24 for Judaism classically the incarnation
43:26 of God is in the word and everyone after
43:32 that is a teacher or interpreter of the
43:34 word I don't walk around telling our
43:37 religious school kids to emulate Moses
43:39 because Moses does some stuff I don't
43:41 want them to emulate I don't really
43:43 think frankly the Bible is a book for
43:45 children we need to filter it very
43:47 clearly and closely whether it's five
43:49 percent or two-and-a-half percent or
43:51 whatever it might be
43:53 yeah no part but but this is but this is
44:03 to the point that not and I only speak
44:08 for the Hebrew Bible which is really the
44:10 only one I know it is not it would be a
44:13 mistake to look at every verse of that
44:14 document and assume it to be
44:16 prescriptive right when you cite what
44:19 one army did to another army which would
44:22 go into the five and a half percent have
44:23 I mentioned that which we go in with
44:25 which would go into the five and a half
44:26 percent that's not there as a
44:28 prescription it's there as a description
44:31 through certain human eyes of something
44:35 you know alongside some river between
44:36 two warring armies i similarly do not
44:41 read every verse of moses as something
44:44 that says emulate what's happening in
44:46 this verse some verses i do right moses
44:49 is certainly revered in the tradition
44:50 particularly for his humility and so
44:54 when we talk to kids about humility we
44:56 talk about moses as a model of humility
44:58 but i think the idea that the best way
45:02 to understand the word is how it was
45:04 enacted by x figure is probably not a
45:07 Jewish idea it lends itself to a certain
45:11 kind of hagiography which I think
45:13 Judaism resists and I believe so now to
45:18 go back to Amy's question if you were to
45:23 let's say that each of these traditions
45:24 has a range from and I'm not using
45:27 fundamentalists as a dirty word here I'm
45:29 using it as sort of meaning the
45:30 literalist end of the spectrum of
45:32 interpretation right so let's say each
45:34 of our traditions has a fundamentalist
45:36 end of the spectrum people who read the
45:38 sacred writ with a particular literalist
45:42 frame and then a more metaphoric
45:45 interpretive liberal reading let's call
45:47 it okay without attaching any
45:49 contemporary meanings to those words the
45:53 in Judaism even the most fundamentalist
45:56 reader okay if you go into the most
46:00 traditional Academy of Jewish study and
46:03 you look at the page
46:05 of scripture that they're studying
46:07 literally what you will see is in the
46:13 a rectangle that might have six or eight
46:18 lines of scripture and then it is
46:21 completely surrounded on all four sides
46:25 by commentary if you can see that
46:28 picture in your mind that is how Jews
46:31 read scripture that it begins with
46:35 divine revelation and then it is not
46:39 only accessible to but it depends upon
46:42 human interpretation to reincarnate what
46:47 is already incarnate in the word itself
46:50 so that's why I would think in general
46:53 I'm not saying that Judaism doesn't have
46:55 its instances of hagiography and holding
46:58 up people as the best and brightest
47:01 embodiment of sacred call but in general
47:06 we're going to look to the word and the
47:09 application of our own wisdom and the
47:12 wisdom of the tradition to the word more
47:14 than we're gonna look to specific into
47:16 individuals as the embodiment of the
47:18 word thank you do we have to go to the
47:21 next question it reminds me of Romney's
47:30 what was a 48% moment or for me so yeah
47:34 I would this is a this is actually one
47:40 of the things that I actually deeply
47:41 enjoy about our discussion is if we're
47:44 gonna talk about it from a purely
47:45 theological perspective so how do we
47:46 reckon with this I think that every
47:48 generation is going to be challenged
47:50 with how much access how much unique
47:52 access do you have to text the previous
47:55 generations did not so what emphasis do
47:57 we place on consensus so for me you know
48:04 looking at looking at every Muslim as
48:08 capable of accessing the text and
48:10 deriving their own interpretations is
48:12 very dangerous I'm not saying that
48:13 suggested yeah I got you
48:15 so there has to be a layer now in Islam
48:17 we don't have the hierarchy within the
48:19 you know as a similar to both of the
48:22 traditions up here that we don't have a
48:25 hierarchy beyond the Prophet Mohammed
48:28 peace be upon them so scholars are
48:30 judged by the Sunnah by the practice of
48:33 the Prophet not vice-versa so if the
48:35 Islamic scholar comes and says I've
48:37 discovered something that for 1400 years
48:39 hasn't been there and this is when it's
48:41 all it's meant all along and nobody else
48:43 got it right then we're not going to
48:46 take that scholar very seriously however
48:47 context evolved and we also and I'll say
48:50 this just as we look to the past and
48:54 this is a really difficult thing for
48:56 people to swallow sometimes we love to
48:59 judge the past and to think that
49:01 everything and everyone in the past was
49:04 behind us and that we we somehow
49:08 represents this epitome or or the most
49:11 refined version of morality now in the
49:14 21st century here in the United States
49:15 give me a break seriously give me a
49:19 I mean there's a saying that that uh
49:21 that if I was and I got to get this
49:23 right because I always mix up the two
49:24 terms that I was a conservative 20 years
49:27 ago and today I'm a liberal and I have
49:29 not changed the single one of my views
49:31 or Knox's office if it was a liberal 20
49:33 years ago and today I'm a conservative
49:35 and I haven't changed a single one of my
49:36 views so everything is changing the way
49:38 we view morality is changing the way we
49:40 view our social contexts are constantly
49:43 evolving but can we look back and say
49:45 every body in the past
49:47 had it wrong on this and this and this
49:49 not now there are some things that we
49:50 can say that for sure all right but then
49:52 just in general the lenses and how we
49:54 perceive society and I'll give you you
49:58 know when we're talking about the
49:59 profits in particular the profits of God
50:03 so in Islam we we would remove any
50:06 attachment of immorality to the prophets
50:08 and we would ascribe that to human
50:10 innovation that these were men that came
50:13 afterwards that ascribed immoralities to
50:15 the prophets as opposed to immoralities
50:18 of the prophets themselves committed and
50:20 I think this is where it gets tricky
50:22 because if you're and it's a question
50:23 that we have to wrestle with Old
50:25 Testament New Testament the god of
50:28 Judaism the god of Christianity the God
50:30 of Islam we started off this discussion
50:32 by saying it's the same God while laws
50:34 changed and prescriptions changed the
50:36 very nature and essence of God who
50:39 legislated and who reveals was the same
50:41 God and so God was not was never immoral
50:45 God was never cruel God was always
50:47 merciful God is always most gracious and
50:50 compassionate and just and so
50:52 legislation that we look back on or
50:55 scripture that we look back on it we go
50:56 yeah either we're misunderstanding it or
50:59 miss applying it or we can I mean I
51:02 could say confidently that there are
51:04 many things that are ascribed to many
51:05 pro2 to the prophets that I reject as a
51:08 believer of those prophets and I'm
51:10 offended on their behalf yes when I when
51:12 I hear certain things ascribe to the
51:14 prophets of the past so - there's a
51:17 there's an out there there's truth to
51:19 what you're saying in the sense that
51:21 it's not well I would just push back
51:24 it's not the prophets themselves it's
51:25 those that interpreted what they wanted
51:27 to of the prophets and just like what
51:30 you had mentioned we usually get in
51:31 trouble with those that came afterwards
51:33 in Islam we usually get stuck with what
51:36 some jurist in 9th century Baghdad right
51:38 okay that's where we usually get stuck
51:41 because we want to honor that jurist cuz
51:43 he was great in many ways but then it's
51:45 like you see that sentence in this book
51:46 and you're like tonight can we just take
51:49 that out can I you know when we don't
51:51 use whiteout anymore we just
51:52 you know but how do we take that out so
51:56 that's where we get stuck as well
51:57 usually I have a question what about the
52:01 what about the potential for an arc of
52:04 moral growth of one of these figures
52:06 over time is that anathema or is that
52:09 possible I wanted to follow up sort of
52:12 on that idea of immorality that there
52:14 was where's their humanity a prophetic
52:18 like that problems that they encounter
52:23 the mistakes that they make as they are
52:28 human rather than taking that away as
52:31 something that was put on them later did
52:34 I hear that right I think so in Islam we
52:38 our our definition of infallibility to
52:41 the prophets is that they were incapable
52:43 of major sin or of ascribing to God a
52:48 partner so they were capable of mistakes
52:52 of slip-ups of minor sin but they were
52:54 not capable of major sin so that's where
52:56 that's where the Islamic definition of
52:58 prophets or how we categorized their
53:01 mistakes and you got to understand that
53:04 sometimes when I say I believe in Christ
53:06 or I believe in Moses or I believe in
53:09 Abraham that does not mean that as a
53:11 Muslim I believe in every story about
53:12 Christ Abraham or Moses peace be upon
53:14 them all that is found within Judaism
53:17 and Christianity and let's face it that
53:19 within Christianity and Judaism right
53:22 there is there are different
53:23 interpretations of who these men were
53:25 and who these people were and so you
53:29 know I think I'm talking too much now
53:31 but I'm gonna just I would just say that
53:34 that's where it still goes to the man
53:37 that told us the stories of those
53:38 prophets who compiled those stories of
53:42 those prophets and which stories made it
53:44 through and then how were those stories
53:46 that were told by men interpreted by
53:47 other men that then reached us and so
53:50 that's where that's where I would I
53:52 would say that we have to we have to be
53:54 as critical of that or we have to start
53:56 there before we go to the prophets
53:58 themselves and say hey you know that
54:00 that's something that
54:02 that I reject with the Prophet himself
54:06 you don't agree so a challenge yes you
54:10 you were the first one I know you guys
54:12 put me in the middle for a reason
54:18 isn't that a form of sanitizing we do
54:22 we'd use the word you would talked about
54:24 sanitizing before in terms of you know
54:26 that we we whitewash the the prophetic
54:30 and justice anger of these figures is it
54:33 a form of sanitizing to say that if
54:36 there's anything uncomfortable that's
54:39 attributed to the Prophet I'm going to
54:41 say the problem is in the attribution
54:43 not and the Prophet isn't that in and of
54:44 itself a form of sanitizer that's a good
54:46 question I and I would say that it would
54:49 be sanitizing if before I look to the
54:51 attribution I look to what I like and
54:53 don't like and then I toss it out or
54:55 accept it on that basis but I will
54:56 scrutinize every attribute I yeah so in
54:59 Islam we have you know we have a very
55:01 strict method of scrutinizing Hadees
55:04 which are sayings of the Prophet
55:06 Muhammad peace be upon him there are
55:09 that are so beautiful but they're not
55:11 authentic from an Islamic perspective
55:13 like if I'm true to the signs of hadith
55:15 and I'm just like I wish it was
55:16 authentic because I love it and I love
55:18 this attribution I love the story but
55:20 it's not it's not something I can
55:21 describe so as a Muslim I start from
55:23 that place is the attribution authentic
55:26 or not if it is then what's the context
55:29 I want to understand the context because
55:30 I cannot believe that a man who was used
55:33 as a vehicle of God's revelation himself
55:35 lived an immoral life so I need to I
55:38 need to look at that I need to look at
55:40 the attribution then look at the
55:42 incident itself if I've determined that
55:44 the attribution is authentic then what
55:47 is it that took place and how do i how
55:48 do i grapple with that particular
55:51 incident what I find interesting about
55:53 this is that for for Christianity the
55:56 the root idea is God's redemptive work
56:00 in the world right into Redemption is a
56:05 change and so mistakes and problems
56:11 aren't a problem because it's just true
56:14 and we're all in that same boat together
56:17 and it's I might steal David's word that
56:21 arc that redemptive work over time not
56:24 necessarily just a single individual
56:26 although yes there's that too
56:28 but it's also as a world like the idea
56:30 of a kingdom of heaven is not this other
56:34 thing but it's something we work toward
56:36 now right then we are working we are
56:39 redemptive agents in the world and are
56:42 called to spread that that redemptive
56:47 truth of God and so to say that even our
56:52 prophets weren't part of that work to me
56:57 kind of undermines I think what the
56:58 Christian kind of root of redemption
57:00 really is so it goes to the definition
57:03 of a prophet and Islam and then it goes
57:05 to the definition of what we classify as
57:07 a major sin so the story of Adam and Eve
57:10 is the story of mankind that Adam who's
57:13 a prophet made a mistake so the major
57:16 sin here when I when I class a major sin
57:18 that that you know I'm talking about
57:20 murder I'm talking about the you know
57:23 I'm talking about a different category
57:25 there's a very specific category of
57:27 major sin in Islam but redemption would
57:30 occur with all of the prophets with all
57:32 of the stories of great people and there
57:36 are stories of redemption that are told
57:38 by the prophets themselves so the the
57:40 work of God the entire the entire
57:42 concept of salvation in Islam is that
57:44 you do your best but your God is most
57:47 compassionate Most Merciful and so so
57:49 long as he finds you on the day of
57:51 judgment having tried your best to
57:53 attain that mercy then his mercy will
57:55 will overcome your shortcomings and so
57:58 there's a saying of the Prophet Muhammad
57:59 peace be upon him that no one enters
58:01 paradise by virtue of their good deeds
58:02 but instead by the mercy of God that
58:05 does not mean free pass you don't have
58:06 to do anything that means you will do
58:08 your best you will strive but you will
58:11 fall short because you were created in a
58:13 way that you you are meant to fall short
58:15 but it is ultimately the mercy and the
58:16 redemption of God that will overwhelm
58:18 you and enter you into paradise but that
58:20 doesn't mean my point is that the
58:22 vehicles of God's revelation the
58:24 prophets themselves and again this would
58:26 take a lot of deconstruct
58:28 sure because who tells us the stories of
58:31 Christ which stories of Christ are
58:33 authentic from a historical perspective
58:34 if we were to take a step back and judge
58:37 it from a purely objective perspective
58:39 whose story of Christ wins and becomes
58:42 mainstream whose story of Moses wins and
58:44 becomes mainstream there are that the
58:46 methods of extraction are different as
58:48 well amongst ourselves and so with that
58:52 there are certain stories that maybe
58:54 you're thinking of when I say that
58:56 so I'll give you an example Noah well
59:01 give me the story he was naked and drunk
59:05 on the beach we have so that we don't
59:09 read that part in church so so that that
59:13 attribution from an Islamic perspective
59:15 we don't have that attribution in our
59:18 text of Noah there yeah so what would
59:20 make your attribution more historically
59:22 accurate than my attribution to Noah do
59:24 you understand what I'm saying here it's
59:27 more fun it's more fun and you know I
59:32 was I was talking to a young Muslim the
59:34 other day was taught you know we have
59:35 the story of sacrifice the sacrifice of
59:37 Abraham that Abraham sacrificing his son
59:39 now Jews say it's Isaac Muslim Said's
59:43 Ishmael but how could a man sacrifice
59:48 his son how could God command a man to
59:51 sacrifice his son and the Islamic answer
59:53 to that is that Abraham saw a dream that
59:55 he interpreted that way but that that
59:58 was not God never commanded him
01:00:00 explicitly go slaughter your son and
01:00:02 that's where the miracle took place and
01:00:04 it was a ram rather than his son so we
01:00:07 don't attribute immorality to the
01:00:09 prophets mistakes they made mistakes but
01:00:11 those mistakes would not compromise the
01:00:13 integrity of the message that they had
01:00:15 and that's where that that's where the
01:00:16 difference lies I think all right I'm
01:00:19 gonna pull us back a little bit from the
01:00:22 wonderful text great door that I opened
01:00:28 it's like overhearing geeky theology
01:00:36 practicalities in all traditions head
01:00:39 covering is a part what does that mean
01:00:41 why is there head covering in the
01:00:43 various forms that it exists within each
01:00:46 of the religions for men and for women
01:00:47 and isn't only for it times of worship
01:00:50 throughout the culture what is the role
01:00:53 of head covering I was in Christianity
01:00:56 it is absolutely about humility before
01:00:58 God no question I mean how many of you
01:01:01 grew up either Catholic and I definitely
01:01:05 saw my grandmother cover her head when
01:01:08 we went to church no question you would
01:01:11 not go into a church without a scarf or
01:01:15 they kind of look like doilies I don't
01:01:18 know but certainly out of humility
01:01:21 humility for being in God's presence he
01:01:26 ever isn't it ironic the difference
01:01:29 between how a Muslim woman who covers
01:01:32 her head is perceived in a nun that has
01:01:35 nothing to do with the media that has
01:01:37 nothing to do with conditioning or
01:01:40 engineering so I would look here's the
01:01:43 thing in our tradition and Muslims love
01:01:46 being asked about their faith and not
01:01:48 told about their faith like usually
01:01:50 here's how an interaction interfaith
01:01:51 dialogue for me usually is this walking
01:01:53 out of Walmart you guys and then it's
01:01:56 gone you know it's like okay well we
01:01:57 could have had an exchange that's all
01:01:59 the interfaith monologue yeah
01:02:03 I have those like six times yet there
01:02:11 are Muslim women that are here today
01:02:13 that cover their heads ask a Muslim
01:02:17 woman how she feels about her head
01:02:18 covering and if anyone forced it upon
01:02:21 her or if it was a choice that she made
01:02:23 at some point in her life as a means of
01:02:26 devotion and humility before God and I
01:02:30 guarantee you that you'll be surprised
01:02:32 by the answer so you have I'm actually
01:02:35 inviting you all the sister I see a few
01:02:36 sisters here you're good with being
01:02:38 asked about your hijab in the story or
01:02:39 hey ok good you're all good with that so
01:02:42 you may ask them that question don't ask
01:02:44 me that question and ask ask those
01:02:46 sisters because when they decided to
01:02:48 cover their heads and why they decided
01:02:51 to cover their heads
01:02:53 it isn't in this America in 2018 hats
01:03:00 off literally to the Muslim women in in
01:03:03 this country that insists on their
01:03:04 Americanist and insist on their identity
01:03:06 because what they are doing is an act of
01:03:09 resistance to bigotry because they're
01:03:12 insisting that there is no
01:03:19 that is an insistence that know I will
01:03:22 be an accomplished woman I would and
01:03:25 whatever that accomplishment looks like
01:03:26 and I will insist on my religious
01:03:28 identity and it is just as oppressive to
01:03:31 force a woman to take her head covering
01:03:34 off than the force that her put it on
01:03:36 so when you see France and you see a
01:03:38 woman on the beach you know who's
01:03:41 wearing the bikini god forbid a woman on
01:03:44 the beach wearing a swimsuit that covers
01:03:46 her entire body in her hair because she
01:03:48 wants to enjoy the beach but she also
01:03:49 wants to abide by her religious
01:03:52 obligations and you've got police
01:03:54 officers going to the beach and
01:03:56 humiliating that woman and stripping you
01:03:58 know stripping her of that of the of her
01:04:01 identifying cloth and then doing that in
01:04:04 the name of secularism and modernity and
01:04:07 progress that's the point we need to
01:04:11 look to what we need to accuse our own
01:04:13 our own lenses and our own constructs
01:04:15 and I'll let Muslim women speak for
01:04:18 themselves as to why they chose to cover
01:04:20 and why they what what they feel about
01:04:22 that obligation other thing I throw in
01:04:29 is because you can do a nice I assume
01:04:34 you could do it in other traditions also
01:04:36 certainly in Judaism you could if you
01:04:38 wanted to be if you wanted to prejudge
01:04:42 you could look on a bus in Israel and
01:04:45 based on the kind of weather it's woven
01:04:48 whether it's velvet how big how small
01:04:50 you could like people who really know
01:04:52 Israeli sociology could actually tell
01:04:54 you a lot about a person right now we're
01:04:57 and again it's a prejudgment but there's
01:04:59 head covering and then it get like as we
01:05:02 said from the very beginning it's also
01:05:03 sometimes used as a sociological marker
01:05:07 well speaking of sociological markers
01:05:10 talk about interfaith marriage what does
01:05:13 each religion say about it repeat the
01:05:20 interfaith marriage what does each
01:05:22 religion say or teach about interfaith
01:05:25 marriage Omar I just spoke for like 15
01:05:33 minutes yeah you guys gave one-word
01:05:35 answers so it's a lot harder to say
01:05:39 something with just a few words don't
01:05:41 you think so is the question what what
01:05:50 our traditions teach about interfaith
01:05:52 marriage or just say about I just want
01:05:54 to point out it's not the rabbi who
01:05:55 answered a question with a question yes
01:06:02 I think is I think it's a sense
01:06:08 my guess is behind the question having
01:06:10 not written it is this sense of is it
01:06:12 acceptable is it in traditional Jewish
01:06:16 law it's prohibited in contemporary
01:06:19 Jewish practice there are many rabbi
01:06:24 specifically rabbis of my denomination
01:06:26 who would officiate you would never find
01:06:28 an Orthodox rabbi officiate an
01:06:30 interfaith wedding
01:06:31 you would actually and and a
01:06:33 conservative currently the current
01:06:35 regulation of the conservative rabbinic
01:06:38 Organization is that if a conservative
01:06:40 rabbi officiates at an interfaith
01:06:41 wedding they're expelled from the
01:06:42 organization so it's so it's a strong
01:06:45 traditional prohibition in the more
01:06:47 progressive and liberal denominations
01:06:49 that there are plenty of rabbis who do
01:06:51 officiate I would certainly say that
01:06:54 there isn't explicit tea this is one of
01:06:58 those moments where I cannot speak for
01:06:59 Christianity right but I think that in
01:07:02 most cases individual clerics have some
01:07:09 flexibility on how they approach this
01:07:13 most of the time marriage is considered
01:07:16 kind of in that pastoral category
01:07:20 certainly as Anglicans or as
01:07:22 Episcopalians and I would say probably
01:07:23 Orthodox or Romans it is sacramental
01:07:27 and when a sacrament when a sacramental
01:07:32 moment is shared that is a set that is
01:07:35 shared among people who believe in that
01:07:39 sacramental experience however there is
01:07:43 flexibility in that I think it depends
01:07:45 on a personal in our tradition we are
01:07:48 not compelled to marry anybody and I
01:07:50 have declined multiple couples just
01:07:54 because you know God knows they're not
01:07:57 supposed to be married
01:08:06 if it's different I mean I wouldn't say
01:08:09 that that we have a responsibility for
01:08:11 to baptize someone who wishes to be
01:08:14 baptized that we were responsibility to
01:08:16 bury someone that needs to be buried
01:08:18 that those are those are
01:08:19 responsibilities that we share but
01:08:21 things like marriage is I think it a
01:08:26 reforming of Family and starting
01:08:30 something new and most I would say most
01:08:34 Christian clergy would really want to
01:08:40 encourage a Christian identity in that
01:08:43 new family even if perhaps someone did
01:08:46 not come out of a Christian tradition
01:08:49 that would still be very strongly
01:08:51 encouraged for sure so within the Muslim
01:08:56 community to the preservation of
01:08:59 identity the Quran was revealed over 23
01:09:03 years so the way we look in the Quran
01:09:06 was not revealed in one shot but rather
01:09:07 between the age of 40 and 63 of the
01:09:10 Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him and
01:09:12 so it was dealing with the evolving
01:09:13 context as well when Muslims were in
01:09:16 Mecca which is the earlier part of the
01:09:19 revelation the first 13 years there was
01:09:21 an absolute prohibition on interfaith
01:09:24 marriages so Muslim men and Muslim women
01:09:28 could not marry non-muslim men or non
01:09:32 Muslim women and there was also a
01:09:33 prohibition on eating meat slaughtered
01:09:36 by anyone that was not Muslim so those
01:09:38 are sacrifices obviously a big part of
01:09:41 the Abrahamic story so the the
01:09:43 sacrifices of others were it was not
01:09:45 accepted when the Muslims moved to
01:09:48 Medina when the Prophet Muhammad peace
01:09:50 be upon him moved to Medina there is a
01:09:51 vibrant Jewish community and actually
01:09:55 the first constitution in the world
01:09:57 according to some historians was the
01:09:58 constitution of Medina you could
01:10:00 actually look it up where Muslims and
01:10:01 Jews agreed upon certain obligations to
01:10:04 one another and certain things to each
01:10:05 at that point there was a verse that was
01:10:08 revealed in the Quran that relaxed the
01:10:13 prohibition for men Muslim men marrying
01:10:17 Jewish or Christian women and relaxed or
01:10:20 did away with the prohibition of eating
01:10:22 sacrifice eating the meats of Christians
01:10:25 and Jews and that was in that new
01:10:27 interaction that was taking place so
01:10:29 certainly even with that relaxation of
01:10:32 prohibition on Muslim men being able now
01:10:34 to marry Jewish women and Christian
01:10:36 women it still was not encouraged that
01:10:38 was discouraged actually very early on
01:10:39 and in the in an effort to preserve the
01:10:42 Islamic identity within the marriage but
01:10:45 when it comes to food thankfully I can
01:10:51 and we got some really good kosher food
01:10:54 and dogs is it it's better in New
01:10:56 Orleans where this is a hangout with
01:10:58 rabbi Chloe but Muslims can eat halal
01:11:01 and they can eat kosher so they can eat
01:11:03 meat that's slaughtered by Christians
01:11:05 and Jews as well as Muslims and I got me
01:11:08 a little hungry and is there one
01:11:14 requirement to be who your faith is
01:11:17 there one requirement all right can you
01:11:20 think of a requirement to be your faith
01:11:23 tradition are we doing a conversion
01:11:25 right now yeah in our tradition it is
01:11:31 the testimony of faith which is not an
01:11:35 alum Mohammed almost a little odd that I
01:11:36 bear witness that there's only one God
01:11:37 worthy of worship and unconditional
01:11:39 obedience and that Muhammad is final
01:11:41 messenger and that statement affirms six
01:11:44 articles of faith which is belief in one
01:11:47 God and and monotheism belief in the
01:11:50 messengers and prophets belief in the
01:11:52 scriptures belief in the angels belief
01:11:55 in the day of judgment and belief in
01:11:58 divine decree and predestination so
01:11:59 that's those are the six pillars of
01:12:01 faith that are implied in the statement
01:12:03 but it's fun to make someone think when
01:12:06 they're about to become Muslim that
01:12:07 we're gonna also baptize and we're gonna
01:12:09 we've got a pool in the back of the
01:12:10 mosque so that kind of their eyes get
01:12:13 also when someone becomes Muslim the way
01:12:17 that Muslims celebrate as they say
01:12:20 Allahu Akbar and if you haven't warned a
01:12:24 person before they become Muslim that
01:12:27 everybody in the mosque is about to
01:12:28 chant Allah Akbar and they've been
01:12:30 watching certain news channels yeah they
01:12:34 get really scared that's always I always
01:12:37 try to make it a point to explain like
01:12:38 that's how they're gonna celebrate it
01:12:39 doesn't mean they're gonna kill you it
01:12:40 means they're about to come hug you so
01:12:50 Christianity is definitely an orthodoxy
01:12:52 so it is grounded in right belief and
01:12:56 the belief being that God's redemptive
01:12:59 work in the world was made complete
01:13:02 through the incarnation of Christ and
01:13:05 that our move toward redemption and
01:13:10 salvation is through the belief in
01:13:12 Christ and the rest of it is details
01:13:18 that people need to feel good but that
01:13:21 is that's the common starting place
01:13:23 I think Judaism is distinguished here
01:13:27 also tends to put plenty of emphasis on
01:13:32 deed as well as on Creed if you wanted
01:13:35 to look historically the Jews or people
01:13:38 before they get to Mount Sinai so
01:13:40 they're actually identified and behaving
01:13:43 as a people before they enter into the
01:13:45 formal signing of the Covenant in
01:13:48 general what you end up with in later
01:13:50 rabbinic Judaism is sort of two core
01:13:52 ideas what's called Elohim ahout and all
01:13:56 Hammad's vote Ohama hoot is the yoke yok
01:13:58 II of God's sovereignty and vomits vote
01:14:02 is the yoke of the commandments and that
01:14:04 one way or another there has to be
01:14:07 participation in the Covenant
01:14:08 both of those days so it's a it is it is
01:14:11 both about accepting a notion of one God
01:14:15 in all the world as well as accepting in
01:14:18 some interpretation a life of musical of
01:14:22 living according to covenant in commune
01:14:24 I just share with you the coolest Muslim
01:14:27 t-shirt that's out there there actually
01:14:29 there's actually a t-shirt I cannot be
01:14:31 Muslim if I don't believe in Jesus it's
01:14:34 actually a t-shirt that some people wear
01:14:36 that's pretty cool wow that's good so
01:14:40 another question from our gathering
01:14:42 tonight what is your biggest fear as it
01:14:45 relates to your faith in Dallas and
01:14:47 worldwide maybe let's focus on Dallas
01:14:50 what is your greatest fear right now and
01:14:55 where we are well we're the only
01:15:00 community well we're the only Muslim
01:15:03 community in America that regularly has
01:15:05 white supremacist groups in front of our
01:15:06 mosques with long rifles that's pretty
01:15:10 and it's it's routine it's routine in
01:15:14 our community there's no other Texas has
01:15:16 10% of the country's hate groups we have
01:15:19 a lot of hate in Texas we have a lot of
01:15:22 hate in Dallas and we have had a lot of
01:15:24 Islamophobia in Dallas and we have had
01:15:27 my she turned 8 last week my 8 year old
01:15:30 daughter all you know she asked me the
01:15:33 questions she said if Donald Trump
01:15:35 becomes president are we gonna be killed
01:15:37 and so what children are ingesting and
01:15:41 internalizing I'd like to think that and
01:15:46 this is I think part of all of our
01:15:48 faiths that we we should work with
01:15:50 optimism that as a person who believes
01:15:52 in God I can't afford to be pessimistic
01:15:55 we're playing the long game if we're
01:15:56 preaching inclusivity we're preaching
01:15:58 love and mercy and tolerance and justice
01:16:00 and these ideals that for most people
01:16:05 even if they are lived they are not part
01:16:09 of the mission of those people as people
01:16:12 of clergy of faith people who believe in
01:16:14 God and people who want to make Dallas a
01:16:20 more loving City
01:16:22 we have to be willing or we have to
01:16:25 believe that we're gonna give our
01:16:26 children a fighting chance to be able to
01:16:29 realize that I don't think that dr. King
01:16:31 I don't think that dr. King really
01:16:36 believed that he would achieve
01:16:36 everything that he dreamed of in his own
01:16:39 lifetime so for me this is this is
01:16:43 pretty bad and with a lot of other izing
01:16:47 dr. Greg Robinson who's the foremost
01:16:50 scholar on Japanese internment in the
01:16:53 United States he has a book by order of
01:16:55 the president in which he talks about
01:16:56 how the Japanese in particular were able
01:17:00 to be treated that way as opposed to
01:17:02 Europeans that came from countries that
01:17:05 were also hostile to the United States
01:17:07 and prevailing racist attitudes allowed
01:17:12 for racist policy allowed for
01:17:16 discriminatory policy what that means is
01:17:19 that it was so it was it was easier to
01:17:21 other eyes the japanese-americans than
01:17:24 it was the German American or the
01:17:26 Italian American or whatever it may be
01:17:28 it was easier to authorize them so as a
01:17:31 Muslim look it's in our situation it is
01:17:38 a statistical fact that Muslims do not
01:17:41 commit most acts of terrorism
01:17:43 domestically or globally it's
01:17:45 statistical you can't argue with it it's
01:17:48 objective research data that Muslims do
01:17:51 not kill more than other faith groups
01:17:54 and that Muslims do not commit most
01:17:56 terrorist acts or mass shootings in the
01:17:58 United States however the way that a San
01:18:02 Bernardino is treated as opposed to a
01:18:04 Las Vegas puts us in a situation in
01:18:09 which we feel like at times we can't win
01:18:11 because we have to defend every lunatic
01:18:15 that takes one life or 16 lives whereas
01:18:19 other groups of people are given a pass
01:18:21 even when a person may be claiming their
01:18:24 faith or belong to their their group and
01:18:26 could murder 60 people without anyone
01:18:29 facing any repercussions for that and
01:18:31 our children have to bear the
01:18:32 if you think about how unjust that is I
01:18:36 wrote an article yesterday that we're
01:18:38 not been seeing on CNN and and it's and
01:18:41 it was I am NOT your American Muslim and
01:18:44 I'm and and to be honest with you I
01:18:46 started off with the last detainee at
01:18:49 the airport and DFW was Jesus his name
01:18:53 was Jesus he was a 33 year old Iraqi man
01:18:56 who served the US military and was named
01:19:00 Issa which means Jesus and had a broken
01:19:03 pelvis because of an attack that he
01:19:05 suffered from serving the United States
01:19:08 Army and we held him at DFW and he
01:19:12 almost died out of pain back there
01:19:14 because of the Muslim ban one year ago
01:19:17 what does that say about our
01:19:18 Christianity what does it say about our
01:19:20 patriotism what does that say about
01:19:22 everything that we claim to hold near
01:19:24 and dear and so it's a losing battle if
01:19:26 in order for a Muslim to be dignified
01:19:30 they have to be American with a capital
01:19:33 a a Patriot with a capital P a Democrat
01:19:36 with a capital D or a Republican with a
01:19:38 capital R we're just not willing to live
01:19:41 up to those standards because you don't
01:19:44 have to like me but you have to respect
01:19:47 me you you could hate the Quran but
01:19:49 you've got to treat me in accordance
01:19:50 with the Constitution and so we will
01:19:53 insist on our rights and I pray that
01:19:55 we're able to form I am optimistic
01:19:56 because I do think that we're forming
01:19:58 coalition's now that we would not have
01:20:02 formed in our complacency that we would
01:20:04 not have formed if if the the myth of a
01:20:08 post-racial America continued to persist
01:20:10 in the media and that that that idea
01:20:13 that we've moved beyond all of our rifts
01:20:16 and discrimination was able to survive
01:20:19 so I think now the it's it's CodeRed
01:20:22 it's it's raised we're alert and
01:20:25 hopefully that radical hatred is forcing
01:20:29 radical love and so I'm optimistic that
01:20:31 we'll form coalition's and friendships
01:20:33 and relationships that hopefully will
01:20:35 give our children a better chance to do
01:20:38 away with those divisions
01:20:53 here in Dallas I think that the most
01:20:56 dangerous thing for us is that this is a
01:21:01 I've lived in five major cities and I've
01:21:06 not lived in a place that is so
01:21:09 separated and I think the separation is
01:21:13 maybe not bad for the reason you might
01:21:16 think it's it's exposure and it's simply
01:21:19 just knowing other people it it is so
01:21:22 easy for me in my world of work and
01:21:27 school and grocery stores and whatever
01:21:29 to really only see people who look like
01:21:34 me and who might believe like me way too
01:21:38 and when that is the case then the
01:21:43 natural exposure that we have to people
01:21:45 who just aren't like us is so low that
01:21:49 we can't otherwise and in places where
01:21:52 segregation where there is a big mix you
01:21:57 just you kind of have to learn about
01:21:59 other people just because they're around
01:22:01 you right you're working with them
01:22:04 you're shopping with them you're in
01:22:05 school with them and you figure out that
01:22:08 they're just people and that that I
01:22:12 think for Dallas is is probably the
01:22:15 heart the biggest hurdle that we have
01:22:17 because geography physical division is
01:22:20 really difficult to get over really
01:22:25 nationally perhaps I think that there is
01:22:29 no way to read the story of Christ as a
01:22:34 story that is not about incredible
01:22:37 lavish abundance abundance always and
01:22:41 yet I think that especially Christian
01:22:45 groups have not been living abundantly
01:22:53 and when we guard ourselves and are
01:22:57 concerned about lack and try to shore up
01:23:02 what we have to not lose any of it we're
01:23:07 not actually living faithfully and that
01:23:10 kind of the abundance of God is so
01:23:14 tangible and real that if we don't claim
01:23:17 that back that confidence and that
01:23:19 courage and that love that abundance
01:23:22 provides and and empowers us to be we're
01:23:26 not going to grow we're not going to be
01:23:30 a force for good we're not going to be
01:23:32 able to claim our authority for the good
01:23:36 that God calls us to be in the world and
01:23:38 I think that's that Christian groups
01:23:40 particularly in America have have that
01:23:44 reckoning that is coming a lot faster
01:23:47 than we wish it were I've you worries
01:23:58 first is I I sort of believe that
01:24:01 anti-semitism is a constant I believe
01:24:04 that in some periods in places it's more
01:24:07 submerged which I'm very happy for but
01:24:10 and I'm really not sort of anti-semitism
01:24:13 out a primary shaper of my Jewish
01:24:15 identity it is for lots of Jews it's not
01:24:17 a primary shaper of my and I say that
01:24:18 without judgment it's it's not a primary
01:24:20 shaper of my identity but I have an
01:24:21 awareness of it I have a sense of
01:24:23 vigilance about it I think that we've
01:24:25 been relatively fortunate in Dallas but
01:24:28 I sort of don't really take it for
01:24:30 granted and it may sound paradoxical but
01:24:33 the other thing I'm worried about in the
01:24:34 sociological category is assimilation
01:24:37 that Jewish achievement and Jewish
01:24:40 integration gets so cushy that we lose
01:24:44 track of who we are as a faith community
01:24:47 as an historic community as a
01:24:49 distinguished and distinctive so I worry
01:24:53 about that and I see that as a big part
01:24:55 of my responsibility and I'm going now
01:25:00 shifting away from the sociological
01:25:03 more explicitly faith dimension of
01:25:06 Jewish identity I worry about
01:25:08 complacency I worry that we'll take all
01:25:13 the parts that are warm and joyous and
01:25:16 the connective and self-affirming
01:25:19 which thank God there are deep
01:25:21 reservoirs of and neglect our obligation
01:25:25 to justice neglect our obligation to
01:25:27 enter into the space is uncomfortable
01:25:29 gotten to collect our obligation to hear
01:25:31 the stories that are uncomfortable
01:25:32 neglect our obligation to see what's
01:25:34 broken and to work to be healers of that
01:25:37 breach so I worry that that we don't
01:25:43 rise to the level to which our tradition
01:25:46 calls us can respond for maybe just
01:25:51 faith communities in general I think
01:25:55 assimilation is an interesting idea to
01:25:57 put forward because one of the things at
01:25:59 I grew up in Florida which a lot of
01:26:01 people call you know the sixth borough
01:26:02 of New York and I had we call it God's
01:26:05 ante room God answered
01:26:10 that is not wrong so we used to have
01:26:16 bumper stickers that said when I am old
01:26:18 I will move to Michigan and drive slow
01:26:21 so point being though when I grew up I
01:26:25 knew I had lots of Jewish friends and
01:26:27 every Saturday morning they would trot
01:26:30 off to Jew school right and they would
01:26:33 learn how to speak in read Hebrew they
01:26:37 would learn stories they met friends of
01:26:40 mine who were raised in Jewish families
01:26:43 did not make the assumption that they
01:26:46 would figure out how to be Jewish unless
01:26:50 they were taught by their church right
01:26:54 by the synagogue or their school or
01:26:56 their Community Center and I think that
01:26:58 one of the differences that Christian
01:27:02 groups have to embrace is our culture is
01:27:06 not Christian right it is it is yeah I
01:27:11 mean nominally there are some words that
01:27:14 perhaps culture uses that have Christian
01:27:16 roots or but you know America was
01:27:18 founded to be this place of diversity
01:27:20 right and of equality and we have slowly
01:27:25 almost so slowly that we don't even like
01:27:29 to admit it become a place where we
01:27:33 still think that people might become
01:27:36 Christian just by osmosis of being in
01:27:39 America not true and it has not been
01:27:43 true and it's really basically not been
01:27:45 true for any person in this room right I
01:27:47 mean as many generations of not being
01:27:49 true and we have yet most Christian
01:27:53 groups have yet to cop to that untruth
01:27:57 and we do not take seriously enough
01:28:01 forming people to be Christian in the
01:28:05 way that I think my friends up here
01:28:08 their traditions don't make that
01:28:10 assumption because that there is nobody
01:28:14 thinks that just by being in America
01:28:16 you're going to learn how to be a good
01:28:18 Muslim right everyone say no no and so
01:28:23 to a place where that tradition is
01:28:25 passed on and taught and honored and
01:28:28 respected in the same way that that
01:28:30 anyone who is Jewish does that and
01:28:32 Christians have got to own that more and
01:28:35 that's a danger because I think as
01:28:37 people of faith all of us will lose if
01:28:43 we don't realize the necessity of
01:28:46 formation and we just assume it will
01:28:49 happen thank you so believe it or not
01:28:59 gentlemen it's after 8:30 wait I know
01:29:01 zoom whoosh there goes so I can't help
01:29:04 but end on a wonderful question I don't
01:29:06 know who wrote it it's kind of a circle
01:29:09 back to when we've all got together
01:29:10 before we came in here and I'm sorry I
01:29:14 don't mean to upset the questions
01:29:15 tonight have been fabulous there are
01:29:17 many many others that I'm sure we're
01:29:20 going to figure out a way to address in
01:29:21 communication from this evening but
01:29:24 here's the last question and I did not
01:29:28 write it see what is the best priest
01:29:31 rabbi and a mom walk into a bar joke
01:29:41 I should qualify that can be shared in a
01:29:45 mix yes in this room in this sacred
01:29:49 space so I told them this earlier I
01:29:51 actually when I pulled into my to the
01:29:53 parking lot tonight I googled a rabbi a
01:29:57 priest and an imam walk in a bar just
01:30:00 like figured you have to know one of
01:30:01 them right I didn't know any of them and
01:30:03 so here's here's what came up right a
01:30:06 rabbi a priest and an imam walk into a
01:30:09 bar and the bartender looks at them and
01:30:10 says what is this a joke I would think
01:30:36 that it would be something about you
01:30:39 know something about the Muslim being
01:30:42 violent the mom hitting someone over the
01:30:44 head with a bottle
01:30:56 they shared on Howard's even though so
01:30:58 yeah I mean it's gonna be one of the
01:31:00 stereotypes right
01:31:03 but I'm pretty sure it ends with the mom
01:31:04 being violent I mean she's gotta be that
01:31:06 way so the moms eyes are gonna break the
01:31:08 bottle on the bartender's head or or the
01:31:11 priest is gonna get it so and yet I
01:31:13 think we would all agree that often the
01:31:15 better conversations for understanding
01:31:17 are going to happen in the bars and the
01:31:19 restrooms or around dinner tables then
01:31:21 they are going to be in our segregated
01:31:24 places of worship on the weekends and so
01:31:27 maybe that can be that great takeaway is
01:31:29 to find ways in our communities to come
01:31:31 together around tables around places
01:31:34 where we can engage in conversation and
01:31:49 no honest hours I was just going to say
01:31:51 I don't drink but I'll but I'll say this
01:31:52 that david has become my favorite coffee
01:31:55 so we've we've done Jabba me up and
01:31:58 that's excellent the best we've done and
01:32:00 I've got to bring you out there as well
01:32:02 so I love coffee
01:32:03 all right that's right so real quickly
01:32:08 just to end us I want to say a big word
01:32:12 of thanks to Amy for moderating us
01:32:15 tonight for David and for Omar for being
01:32:23 here with us tonight and a thank you to
01:32:25 all of you for the women of st. Michael
01:32:27 for everyone who helped put this
01:32:28 together Saint Michael is really honored
01:32:31 that you were here with us tonight in
01:32:33 this sacred space for a sacred
01:32:35 conversation and we hope that it does
01:32:37 not end here for you that perhaps you
01:32:41 will stay after for the reception that
01:32:43 will be out these doors in our garden
01:32:45 cloister our parlour and all over the
01:32:46 place stay and have conversation look
01:32:49 around the church and see somebody you
01:32:53 don't know and go meet them and go ask
01:32:56 them who they are and why do they why
01:32:58 are they here first of all what do they
01:33:00 believe and maybe make a new friend and
01:33:03 perhaps we will all continue this
01:33:06 dialogue for good that will begin to
01:33:09 change our city in our world so thank
01:33:11 you all for being here tonight
01:33:26 I hope the Geoghan goes I'm good
