00:05hi listeners and welcome to another
00:07episode of no priors today we're in for
00:09a treat talking with a longtime friend
00:11and business partner to both me and aad
00:14Dylan field Dylan is the founder and CEO
00:17of figma the Beloved and dominant design
00:19collaboration tool figma's been working
00:21on making it possible to design and
00:23build digital products on a single
00:25multiplayer canvas and we're excited to
00:27talk about the world after Adobe fig Jam
00:30Dev mode and their first AI products
00:32welcome Dylan thank you glad to finally
00:35be on no priors we've been trying to
00:36make this happen and I'm stoked let's do
00:39it Dylan you've now been working on
00:41figma for more than 10 11 years what was
00:44the original Vision well it's actually
00:47even longer it's like coming up on 12
00:48years uh which is totally wild um but
00:52yeah original Vision was uh to eliminate
00:55the gap between imagination and reality
00:58and back in August 2012 2013 time frame
01:03uh when I tried pitching people that uh
01:07confused and thought it was very vague
01:10we had a lot of uh challenges recruiting
01:14people and so we thought okay how about
01:17a Northstar like make design accessible
01:20to all and we've tried to make this tool
01:23that's very powerful but also uh is one
01:26where you can easily learn it and that
01:29that said I think that the idea of what
01:32design is is growing Beyond just pixels
01:36and software and at the same time now
01:40you see all these amazing demos and
01:43ideas put forth of how you can actually
01:46actually eliminate the gap between
01:47imagination reality like we would
01:48originally set out to do and so I feel
01:51like those two kind of Visions are
01:52converging it's an interesting moment I
01:54want to come back to Ai and like new
01:58opportunities for creative expression in
02:00a bit uh we have to talk about what's
02:02been in the news and I think what has
02:05been preoccupying at least part of figma
02:07for a while you guys were on track to be
02:10uh acquired by Adobe but the merger was
02:12recently called off due to regulatory
02:15scrutiny you're coming at the other end
02:17of that with Independence and a billion
02:19dollars like tell us about it how did
02:21you manage that process and emotionally
02:23in terms of decision making the original
02:27decision to uh say let's go do this with
02:30Adobe um it it was obviously one that we
02:33thought very deeply about and uh as a
02:37Time seemed like a one-way door you know
02:40there's the classic meme of there's
02:41oneway doors and two-way doors in a in
02:43business and really think deeply about
02:45the oneway doors it turns out sometimes
02:46oneway doors can be two-way doors too
02:48but we thought really deeply about it
02:49and we thought this is a way to just
02:51accelerate our vision and be able to uh
02:55do what we want to do just so much
02:57faster if we're at Adobe and
03:00uh I thought that the team there I'd
03:01learn a lot from as well I mean it's an
03:03incredible group of people over there uh
03:06unfortunately Regulators were not fans
03:10and uh 16 months later we kind of at
03:14some point said okay we got to call it
03:16and uh that was late December um talked
03:21to my team about that it was actually
03:23the first day of break that I called uh
03:24the team back and I was like hey it's
03:27not going through here's this means for
03:29us immediately and here's sort of the
03:31timeline from here and what we got to
03:33think about next um we had you know
03:36communicated along the way hey this is
03:38looking harder the path is narrowing the
03:41path is narrow uh but still I think some
03:44lot of people were were excited about of
03:47and that said I'm just so thankful to
03:50start the year with Clarity yeah it's
03:52kind of interesting because um if you
03:53look uh historically in the 90s
03:55Microsoft tried to buy into it for I
03:58think it was a billion or one half
04:00billion dollars and that got blocked
04:02from a regulatory perspective and now
04:03into it's $178 billion company as of
04:06today I just looked it up and you know
04:09when you hear stories of that time
04:10period it sounded like it was a similar
04:12Journey where you get kind of wrapped up
04:14in all the regulatory stuff and it's
04:15it's um uncertain and it's stressful and
04:17all the rest and I feel like in recent
04:19conversations you've been really
04:20re-energized like when I talk to you I
04:22feel the energy and the excitement and
04:23terms of building figma and building
04:25future products and road maps and it you
04:27know it really feels like you're in a in
04:29a really strong wrong way I'm just a bit
04:30curious like what are some of the things
04:31we're excited about from a road map
04:33perspective and sort of looking ahead
04:34with the company yeah so much I don't
04:37think the excitement ever waned uh you
04:39know but it's it is definitely draining
04:41to be part uh of a regulatory process
04:44like that for such a long period time
04:45and to not have that Clarity but I I'm
04:48very thankful because you know all the
04:50work we did as a team it set us up for
04:52where we're at now uh and I think we're
04:55in a really good place and you know we
04:57kind of just kept our foot on the gas
04:59and moving quickly one of the things
05:01that I I guess I was a little bit
05:02surprised by is uh after the Adobe deal
05:06was announced I expect you to be
05:08celebrating for more like more than a
05:10day or so and then you're like okay I
05:12don't know about a lot I I didn't see
05:14that much of you for about a year and a
05:15half I know some of that was regulatory
05:18but you all kept pushing pretty hard
05:21which seems smart now but what was what
05:23was behind that and sort of you know
05:25trying to lead that way well partially
05:27there is travel for regulatory of course
05:29but I think that yes I mean we were we
05:30were all really heads down and and
05:33focused and we knew exactly what we need
05:35to do um in terms of improving the
05:38platform uh and really if you think
05:41about figma's platform today there's
05:43sort of three different areas there's
05:45fig Jam which is ideation brainstorming
05:49imagination uh and diagramming and then
05:52there's the design element with figma
05:53design and there's Dev mode where you
05:55try to turn designs into actual working
05:58code um and so much more we can do as we
06:01kind of think about that software value
06:02chain but you know if you go back to
06:05when the acquisition agreement was
06:07signed like dab mode wasn't even
06:09announced even um and the platform there
06:12was like very key parts of the platform
06:14that were not there yet over the past
06:16you know 16 17 months there's just been
06:19so much that we've sprinted at uh in
06:21order to kind of create the right
06:22foundations and get them in place and
06:25now uh as we think about the road map
06:28ahead yeah there's so much exciting
06:30stuff that we can do um whether it's
06:34thinking about how do you use AI to go
06:36across as abstraction boundaries from
06:38idea to design to code uh or it's
06:43thinking about what we can do to better
06:45serve developers which are almost a
06:46third of our users and I think that
06:48there's still so much more we can do for
06:50them uh Dev mode is just the start as it
06:52is today and I think that that there's a
06:54lot to evolve there but also a lot more
06:56we can offer um or just going back to
06:59the basics how do you make figma even
07:02simpler uh again if that goal is to you
07:06know democratize design how do you make
07:08it so that you're able to bring more
07:11people in the design process uh and also
07:14make it so that it's less intimidating
07:16after building for designers for so long
07:18like what triggered the decision to
07:20expand to brainstorming and diagramming
07:22which is like broader teams and and then
07:24expanding Focus to developers with Dev
07:27so I think we have a pattern of just
07:29sort of following the use cases that are
07:31already happening in
07:32figma uh figma design is just this
07:36wonderfully broad platform and so many
07:40people do so many different things in it
07:42and with brainstorming
07:45ideation uh whiteboarding diagramming
07:49those were all use cases we saw in figma
07:52uh basically since it
07:54started it's hard to put exact numbers
07:57on it but I do know that that
07:59qualitatively it seemed like there was a
08:01big increase in how much that was
08:04happening as the pandemic occurred more
08:07teams are going from in person to hybrid
08:09or remote and trying to figure out how
08:11do we still communicate collaborate in
08:14that time period it's actually a tool
08:17for whiteboarding that I think is useful
08:20whatever your work context is but I
08:22think people kind of have Thea moment of
08:24we need something to bring us together
08:26some space to go id8 in uh during the
08:30and so we started going okay we have to
08:32make some easier version of figma uh
08:35some version that's more scoped towards
08:38case and really just pushed super hard
08:41to get that built uh we did in record
08:44time from the start of the project to
08:46shipping a beta I mean it was like six
08:49eight months something like that it was
08:50really fast um and the differenti is fun
08:54and at the time I I think that the team
08:56was a little skeptical of that like
08:57really our differ can be fun like are we
09:00sure that enterprises care about that
09:03but it turns out that that's a really
09:05important part of that asan process is
09:07is feeling of safety of play and if you
09:10can make people feel more at home uh
09:12even through silly things sometimes like
09:14stickers or Emoji reactions or uh waving
09:18your curse around and high-fiving people
09:20cursor chat is another good one that
09:22people love um little things like this
09:25make us that more people feel like they
09:27can speak up in a in a team meeting and
09:29they're energized to give their opinion
09:30and if you can get more of those
09:32thoughts uh then hopefully you can get
09:34to a better outcome yeah as uh someone
09:37who has never been a designer but was
09:39still a very early handful of figma
09:42users person I I I'd always used it for
09:44visual thinking and then you know we we
09:47hired new folks uh during the pandemic
09:50like most others did and one of the
09:52biggest concerns I had was how is this
09:54person going to feel like they are part
09:56of the team and uh two of the big things
09:58for me was I was going to go on a weekly
10:00walk with my hires and also using fig
10:03jam and um getting people to like do
10:06something that actually did feel more
10:08fun was huge it's interesting because
10:10over time people sort of evolve their
10:13use cases of how they use fig Jam too
10:16and at least inside of figma one of the
10:19see is it it kind of evolves into a
10:22better way to like run a meeting and
10:25brainstorm a lot of times they're
10:27decision-making meetings and you know we
10:30have a lot of things that are laid out
10:32almost like a document or uh you know a
10:35knowledge base inside a fig Jam it's in
10:37a more visual way it solicits input but
10:40it also drives towards an outcome and uh
10:44that's a big part of the I strategy for
10:45figy is how do we help people set those
10:47things up faster amongst the different
10:50products that you've rolled out recently
10:51one of them is Dev mode could you tell
10:52us a little bit more about that
10:54absolutely Dem mode uh is a way for
10:57developers to better consume designs in
10:59figma we have almost a third of our
11:03users in the figma platform that are
11:04engaged on a weekly basis almost a third
11:07our developers and going back a few
11:10years we realized that we were just not
11:13creating enough value for these users um
11:15as we surveyed them they were often
11:18lower NPS uh they were not as happy and
11:21then you dug into the reasons why and we
11:23did a lot of research around this and
11:24spent a lot of time we actually acquired
11:26a company called fly and they helped uh
11:29worked through this and it was really a
11:31bunch of pivots along the way but some
11:34of the core problems um were things
11:37like uh you know I just build the wrong
11:39things uh or I don't know how to work in
11:42figma or I don't know how to navigate
11:44figma in the proper way and then we
11:46started taking in deeper um around Coen
11:50around what are the other things that
11:52developers want to use alongside figma
11:55uh via plugins and also uh how do you
11:59want to actually map Design Systems uh
12:01from design to code and keep things
12:04consistent and as we kind of explore all
12:07these areas that's where Dev mode came
12:08from uh and so it's a great way to know
12:12exactly what you should build but also
12:15get the relevant information uh via
12:17annotations via uh properties that are
12:20exposed in the right way um but it also
12:24helps you keep track of changes
12:26understand what's going on and you can
12:28bring everything around the development
12:30process into Dev mode with you and so if
12:34you have certain plugins you want to use
12:37for example jira or custom plugins uh
12:40you can bring those in as well and we
12:41have a lot more thinking ahead around
12:43how do we enable an even better workflow
12:45as well as map at to design systems and
12:47looking forward to sharing that with the
12:48world yeah the extensibility of figma I
12:50think is one of the key things about it
12:51I mean I've also used it effectively for
12:53slides or for you know visual display of
12:56information or things like that so it
12:57seems like there's lots of directions
12:58you can go and to your point one of the
13:00really interesting exciting areas is
13:02really how do you adopt Ai and the
13:05context of figma and really start using
13:06it in deep ways and so I'm a little bit
13:08curious about how when you first started
13:10thinking about this wave of generative
13:11Ai and then how you're starting to think
13:13about incorporating into different
13:14aspects of what figma does yeah
13:16absolutely was fortunate to uh be
13:18surrounded by futurist thinkers like
13:21yourself at the onset of this era um and
13:25as even it was kind of coming up you
13:27know um everyone else was talking talk
13:29about crypto and folks like aad were uh
13:32and Sarah were saying hey have you have
13:34you seen the scaling laws that are
13:35happening right now it's pretty wild uh
13:38something might be happening here and of
13:40course with diffusion models uh
13:42improving you know I think we all had
13:44the aha moment um but uh I I think it's
13:49it's interesting to kind of ask the
13:54of when do you want like sort of an LM
13:57versus diff Fusion model
13:59uh solution for something and design is
14:04maybe you can Define it as like art
14:07solving uh there's many different
14:09definitions of design uh but I love that
14:12one it's it's one that I've been
14:14thinking a lot about recently because
14:15it's like okay well you know if
14:17diffusion models go mapped to Art but
14:19like LM is mapped to problem solving uh
14:22you know it kind of highlights how a
14:24hybrid might be important here um it
14:26sounds like a good like 10 pages end
14:29like I'm serious you should do like a
14:31slim volume if you really need there you
14:33go I'll I'll have a you know GPD 4 help
14:36me out to take my one sentence and and
14:40sort of uh make it 10 pages but there is
14:43a lot we can do in terms of generation
14:45of designs and I'll be honest like we've
14:49um really tried to take our time and
14:51make sure that we're shipping something
14:52that's excellent here uh or at least
14:54useful maybe we shouldn't hold the B
14:56excellent but we should at least hold
14:59and I think we're on track to deliver
15:01that and uh uh excited to to share more
15:04in the future about it are there any
15:05aspects of design that you think are
15:07going to be most impacted holistically
15:09by um AI is it more about changing the
15:12role of designer is it changing the
15:14skill sets is it experience set I
15:17because you look at for example
15:18something like mid journey and it's you
15:21know uh mainly sort of a image
15:23generation tool but you know it's used
15:26pretty broadly in terms of different
15:27aspects of um image is used for all
15:30sorts of purposes and in some cases
15:32professional use cases in some cases
15:33individual but the main thing it's done
15:35is it allowed a large class of people to
15:37suddenly become creators and in the
15:39context of figma you have the the sort
15:41of UI generation there's the brand
15:43assets there's actually writing the code
15:45there's so many different things that
15:46could occur I'm just sort of curious
15:48about which aspects you're most excited
15:50about or how you're thinking about
15:51things holistically yeah I I think that
15:53there's a ton you can do in terms of
15:55lowering the floor and making it so that
15:56more people can start to do design work
15:59and if we can make that happen I think
16:01it'll be really important for the
16:03industry and allow more people to be
16:05part of that conversation but I also
16:07think there's more you can do in terms
16:08of making it so that designers can be
16:09more efficient uh there's so many
16:12repetitive tasks that you do as a
16:13designer and if you can make it that you
16:15don't have to do as many of those and
16:17you have uh a great way to interface the
16:20tool via AI that could be very powerful
16:24um and yeah of course we're thinking
16:26about again all those transition States
16:28between idea to design design to code
16:30and I think there's a lot more you could
16:32do there too whether it's on the
16:34platform made by us or through
16:35Partnerships one thing that's
16:37underexplored when it comes to AI is how
16:39much are agents going to be crossing
16:41boundaries in in different data uh areas
16:45I think that you know we're all kind of
16:47just trying to figure that out right now
16:49but it's still very early are there any
16:51aspects of an AI and design that have
16:52surprised you I'll give you an example
16:54something I thought that was kind of
16:55neat was like the first time I saw
16:57Korea and as your things that literally
16:59will uh change the generation of the the
17:02image right a sort of real time
17:04adaptation to a prompt or other uh
17:07inputs is there anything that you've
17:09seen where just like whoa that's really
17:10cool it may not be quite ready for prime
17:11time but it's kind of a glimpse of the
17:13future when you see tools that leverage
17:15direct manipulation like that uh it's
17:19something that you can viscerally you
17:22know touch change a change something
17:24around change a prompt and get a
17:26response back and I think that's very
17:28powerful and creates a great loop with
17:30user um I I think that there's some
17:33things that are coming out in a 3D space
17:35for example that are uh letting designs
17:38be defined more parametrically which I
17:40think are sort of similar like if you
17:42could generate a 3D design and um have
17:45some of the variables that Define that
17:46design be parametric uh and then be able
17:49to use the uh a slider for example to to
17:53change that input and thus change the
17:55actual uh generated form that's another
17:58example something that's direct
17:59manipulation AI generated and I think is
18:02really cool um but I think it is that
18:04Loop between the human and the the agent
18:06or AI or whatever you want to call it
18:08the model uh that ends up really
18:11mattering the faster you can make that
18:12Loop happen the better um and I think
18:15there's so much more to explore there in
18:17terms of different interfaces to let
18:20people um just kind of weigh their way
18:24through Laden space like I mean there's
18:27no way that having to remember all these
18:30different sort of like magical phrases
18:33uh to summon the Right image via
18:36diffusion model is the end state right
18:39and yeah maybe there's something where
18:40you draw some shapes and you add a
18:42prompt but like that still seems so
18:45primitive to compared to where we're
18:46going to get to uh and I I just think
18:49it's like if you think about any Vector
18:51for example what if you could say okay
18:54there's a sort of a vector on one side
18:57it's optimistic and other is
18:59pessimistic um and somehow you can
19:02Define what that means that uh that
19:04traversal space for an image and you can
19:07nudge something more towards optimism or
19:08pessimism or you know pick your
19:11polarities you know there that's another
19:14example of like what can you do if you
19:15can start to nudge images in a certain
19:18way or outputs in a certain way that's
19:20really cool yeah basically you're moving
19:22from a human to human collaboration
19:24company to a human to AI collaboration
19:27company over time and sub sense cuz you
19:30know what you're describing seems like a
19:31really interesting way to have co-pilots
19:34um augment Humanity or augment
19:36creativity are there other ways that
19:38you've thought about the substantiation
19:39of that sort of creativity augmentation
19:42or how AI really interacts with human
19:45creative potential well and these are
19:48just examples of things that I've seen
19:49or or thought about that I think could
19:51be cool in the creative space because
19:52you asked about but I think in the
19:55context um one thing that really matters
19:58a lot is the iterative loop and being
20:02able to keep going back and forth uh to
20:04an agent and give more instructions over
20:06time if you just kind of like go to
20:09First principles here there's so much
20:12that you're not able to communicate via
20:15prompt like if you think about great
20:17design it often captures something about
20:19the culture the ethos of the moment it
20:22captures uh something about the temporal
20:25aspect of the sequence of interaction
20:28someone's having or the the context they
20:30will have mentally something about
20:31affordances what people are used to in
20:33terms of the language of design uh which
20:36is sometimes a similar and dependent on
20:38the platform you know but often times
20:41there's something about emotional state
20:42too uh there's you know videos that the
20:45designers probably watched or or
20:47inperson research interviews they've
20:48conducted and so I think like fitting
20:51all that plus the product requirements
20:54um plus visual style into a prompt
20:56that's hard even if you you could just
20:59get unblocked by an AI helping you
21:02brainstorm and thinking through problems
21:04you know that's your first sort of draft
21:06and from there you can keep iterating
21:07from there you can keep evolving things
21:10I think that could be very very
21:11interesting as a as a first step what's
21:14your response to people who worry that
21:17um AI like in every role are going to
21:21you know eliminate the need for
21:23designers for all the reasons I just
21:25mentioned around you know emotions
21:30context uh knowing how flows go um
21:34having that history of interactions and
21:37what not I I think it's unlikely that
21:39that's like the world we're seeing in
21:40the short term I think no one knows
21:42what's happening in the long term uh you
21:45know if we have you know superhuman
21:48intelligence like I don't know what it
21:50means for any of us in this on this call
21:52podcast or any of our anyone listening
21:55if we don't try to ask about what that
21:57case it looks like and instead ask about
21:59okay if we assume that there's uh uh
22:03continued Improvement uh what does it
22:05mean for design I think Design's
22:06actually in a really good place probably
22:08before you see potential replacement of
22:10any part of the design role you instead
22:12see augmentation and you see access uh
22:16you see efficiency so that designers can
22:18get more done and I think probably a lot
22:21of Engineers do more of their put more
22:25of their time towards design than they
22:27put towards what we consider consider a
22:28coding task today and the abstraction
22:31level of coding changes there's probably
22:33still a human the loop for engineering
22:34but I think that it's not not clear to
22:37me that humans are going to write like
22:38every line of code in a year three years
22:40five years I mean obviously already we
22:42have co-pilot but I think that you could
22:44go even further than that and and a lot
22:45of companies are trying to do that I
22:47mean I can't make multi-year bets in the
22:49current environment but my expectation
22:52would be that we um maybe it's because
22:54I'm an optimist but I think we're just
22:56going to get better and more software
22:59um and better designed software versus
23:02fewer fewer designers or Engineers yeah
23:05I definitely think that as a metric like
23:07number of pieces of software that will
23:09be created will go up tremendously um
23:12and it's interesting like there's
23:14there's some Visions out there of the
23:19people interpret the capabilities of AI
23:23to mean that you won't like have any
23:24interface at all I think it's really
23:26cool to see this explore like the rabbit
23:27we've talked about I haven't used it yet
23:29I think you did is that right but yeah I
23:31think it's a really cool vision and I
23:33think that there will be so much more
23:36software in a year two years or five
23:38years from now than there is today like
23:41both could be true that there's demand
23:42for that and there's just way more
23:43software so I guess one of the
23:45repetitive tasks that uh designers often
23:48complain about is interacting with
23:50product managers so I don't know if
23:52you've considered automating that away
23:55or you know creating a B designer to
23:58respond to the PM pings or things like
24:00that but I'm just thring it out there as
24:01an idea you can use it if you want okay
24:04uh I I'll take it back to the team um
24:08you know it's so funny we had at the
24:10last config uh chesy from
24:13Airbnb um you know he was he was talking
24:16I think really about sort of their
24:18unique structure and set up at Airbnb
24:20and how they have more of a program
24:21management function kind of like apple
24:24uh but he kind of had this throw a line
24:26of like we don't have product manager
24:29if look at the capability of rock
24:30managers I don't think it's even true
24:32but in any case uh you know it kind of
24:34got misinterpreted and all the designers
24:35were like yeah no project
24:37managers there was real attachment to
24:40that claim yeah that that that's usually
24:42the reaction I I actually worked as a PM
24:44for much of my career and so before
24:46becoming a startup CEO so I I I
24:48definitely mean a tongue and cheek well
24:51it you know it's funny CU product is
24:53such a a hard role to Define I think
24:55it's why you get these jokes but uh the
24:58reality is if you have people who are
25:01deeply in tune with user needs who are
25:04really strategic um and are able to
25:07understand technical requirements but
25:08also dive into the design details like
25:10that's a very powerful role to have on
25:12the team and I mean I'm so lucky we have
25:15an amazing chap ROCT officer at fig at
25:17figma Yuki um and he's just like
25:19incredibly design oriented and an
25:21amazing thought partner on all the
25:23things I me I talk to him so much uh I
25:26uh I'll try to stop slacking you you
25:28late at night Yuki but anyway should
25:31make Yuki GPT you can just uh create an
25:34embedding and just start chatting with
25:35them speaking of chat how do you think
25:37about the shift in UI in general that's
25:41going to come with AI a lot of things
25:42are kind of collapsing in the short run
25:44into chat interfaces there's a lot of
25:45people talking about a future agentic
25:47world which does a away with most UI
25:49altogether and this just all
25:50programmatic stuff happening in the
25:52background um how do you think about
25:54where UI is is going in general right
25:56now I mean I kind of think this kind of
25:57comes back to the rabbit point I was
25:59making earlier yes there's a lot of uh
26:03Innovation happening in terms of Agents
26:05but I think like in terms of the way
26:07that we use UI to interact with agents
26:11beginning and I think that the
26:14interfaces will get more sophisticated
26:16um but also even if they don't I suspect
26:20that it's just like any new media type
26:23when it's introduced it's not like the
26:24old media types go away right just
26:26because you have Tik Tok doesn't mean
26:29that you uh you no longer watch YouTube
26:31even if it's true that uh a new form of
26:35interaction is via chat interfaces which
26:37I'm I'm not even sure I believe but if
26:39even if we take that as a prior on the
26:41no prior podcast then I I think that you
26:44still have uh UI and actually I think
26:46you have more UI and more software than
26:49before do you have any predictions in
26:52multimodality like do you think there's
26:54more need for boys like so you know a
26:56lot of the debates people have is like
26:58when are you going to use voice versus
27:00text uh versus other types of
27:03interfaces and you know you could
27:06imagine arguments in all sorts of
27:07directions in terms of you know when do
27:08you use what and things like that and a
27:10lot of people are not a lot some people
27:12are suggesting because of the rise of
27:14multimodal models you'll have like more
27:15voice input or more things like that
27:17because you'll be able to do real time
27:19sort of smart uh contextual semantic
27:21understanding of like a conversation and
27:23so you have more of a verbal
27:25conversational UI versus a text why or
27:29and so it kind of changes how you think
27:30about design so I was just curious if if
27:32you have any thoughts on that that sort
27:34of future looking stuff there's all
27:36sorts of contexts where a voice UI is
27:38really important and I think that uh uh
27:43it might be that we find that Voice uis
27:45start to map to more traditional uis um
27:50because it's something that like you
27:51could obviously do uh in a more
27:55way but yeah I mean personally don't
27:59navigate the information spaces that I
28:03interact with every day all day uh via
28:06voice I also don't want to do it in
28:08Minority Report Style on the Vision Pro
28:11exactly either uh maybe with a keyboard
28:14and mouse and like an amazing Vision Pro
28:17monitor setup or Oculus like that could
28:19be cool but I don't want to do The
28:21Minority Report thing and so it's it's
28:24interesting so I think that we get these
28:25new glimpses at interaction patterns
28:27that are really cool
28:29and the natural inclination is to
28:31extrapolate and say they're going to be
28:32useful for everything and I think that
28:34they have like sort of their role and um
28:38it doesn't mean that they're going to be
28:40ubiquitous across every interaction we
28:42have uh but that's a natural cycle to be
28:45in and I think it's good uh it's healthy
28:49to have sort of that almost Mania around
28:52what can it do because if you don't have
28:54that then you don't get to find out and
28:56so I I I'm supportive of people
28:58exploring as much as possible uh because
29:01that's how you kind of progress on HCI
29:03and and figuring out how to use
29:04computers and to the fullest potential
29:06that that could be possible one of the
29:09things I am really bullish on is I mean
29:12you just think of it as an input mode or
29:13a peripheral but um it's really hard for
29:16people to describe things visually and
29:19so the idea of intelligent cameras even
29:21in the like most basic sense oh it
29:25worked I it worked I think that's
29:27actually a really fun space to be as you
29:29said like exploring um because I
29:32actually think that will be useful and
29:34um it's something that every user is
29:36capable of right taking pictures
29:38capturing video and so I I think that'll
29:40be I'm pretty bullish on that Dylan I
29:42talked to a few of our friends in common
29:46um and one thing that I was kind of
29:48struck by was Danny and John both like
29:52they both admired um one I mean I'm sure
29:55they admire many things about you but
29:57they admired one thing in common about
29:58you which was like your breath of
30:01interest and like ability to invest
30:04think about other parts of technology in
30:06entrepreneurship and in AI I think they
30:08were both sort of of the belief that
30:11that was really good for you in um your
30:14job as founder and COO of figma can you
30:16talk about how you think about like
30:17investing and paying attention to the
30:19rest of the ecosystem and talking to
30:21Founders because you have so much energy
30:23for that in a way um that I think a lot
30:25of founders of important growing at
30:28scale platform companies don't
30:30necessarily yeah I mean I just find it
30:33really fun I mean I get that yeah you
30:35know you're both investors as well so I
30:37think we we share our passion around
30:39this and to me just helping people and
30:43seeing them bring something to life uh
30:46it just gives me so much energy that's
30:48energy I can I can pour into all sorts
30:50of stuff as well you know a lot and I I
30:53remember going on walks uh where he
30:57would say like so so why why are you
30:58doing this again you know a nicer way
31:00cuz he's a he's a super sweet guy and I
31:03didn't like have a very good answer then
31:04I don't have the perfect answer now ex
31:06that I really like it and I I like kind
31:08of helping people and and it's fun and I
31:10like learning so yeah it's it's kind of
31:13greedy in that way um but hopefully
31:15helpful to others too hopefully I phrase
31:17it uh in a more positive way it's
31:18amazing you're doing this right now so
31:21you know maybe the the tone came off
31:22wrong or something no no you're always
31:26nice okay uh new step forward uh when
31:32you think about the company at this
31:34scale and with the clarity of you know
31:38being independent Investing For for your
31:40future does that like how do how do you
31:43feel like you've changed as a as a
31:45leader in terms of the culture you're
31:47trying to build and what that looked at
31:49like year one at figma year five at
31:52figma versus now well I I've certainly
31:54evolved a lot as a leader I mean I
31:56didn't know how to manage or lead people
31:58when I started figma and I I hope I've
32:00learned something over the years uh I
32:02definitely have learned something over
32:04years that that's said I'm still
32:06learning and I think that each stage the
32:08company uh it forces you to continue to
32:10to grow your skill set to grow your
32:12Frameworks uh and to be able to
32:15understand you know how do you lead it
32:17at a greater scale and do so uh in a way
32:20that empowers but it's also efficient
32:22and and streamlined and those are
32:24sometimes they can seem like two sides
32:27of the same coin but uh you know there
32:29also are two poles um and I think that
32:33in terms of figma's culture that's the
32:34thing that maybe hasn't changed as much
32:37like I think different values and parts
32:40of figma have been more emphasized over
32:42time or less emphasized over time like
32:46you know a big part of our culture and
32:47values set is play for example and I'll
32:50be I'll be honest like right now in
32:53these few months we are sprinting
32:54 hard not as much of a moment of
32:57play it will return like we have so much
33:01to create so much to innovate on um
33:04right now though the thing that we're
33:06talking a lot about is the value run
33:08with it uh you know and and how do you
33:11make sure that as we
33:12scale that if you see something to to be
33:15done that you just do it rather than
33:17like wait for someone else to come along
33:19or you know who has the responsibility
33:21for this or who owns this thing it's so
33:23easy to get trapped in that uh as you
33:25scale at other times I I think um things
33:29like building Community or craftsmanship
33:32or or or employee growth have been
33:35really important values that we've
33:36leaned on I think that it's kind of wild
33:39that some of our early fig mates who you
33:42know departed and came back and
33:44boomeranged a lot of them have made
33:47comments about how figma feels very
33:48similar and I think it starts with the
33:50fact that based on what we're doing um
33:53and this kind of vision that we're and
33:55this Quest that we're on it attracts
33:57people are are really creative really
34:00oriented uh and I think also very
34:02thoughtful and I I'm thankful that we
34:06have a culture that's quite humble as
34:07well and I think that the combination of
34:09those things ends up being very special
34:12uh ends up being very collaborative may
34:14also partially due to the products that
34:15we build uh and it's a really unique
34:19environment that that I think a lot of
34:21people uh are really grateful to be in
34:24and and I'm grateful for the team we
34:25have it's it's an incredible team when
34:28you think about the ambition you have
34:31for figma you said like hey we we did
34:33fig Jam because we were following user
34:35stories that we already saw in the
34:37product and supporting them and and Dev
34:39mode is the same like what's been the
34:41feedback on those products and if figma
34:44originally was you know compressing that
34:46distance between creativity and um that
34:49that implementation in the real world
34:51like is that still the same Mission and
34:53and like still the same user base you
34:55focus on yeah that's definitely the way
34:57I think it still is how do you eliminate
34:59that gap between imagination and reality
35:02and I think that there's so much
35:04opportunity still to help people
35:06navigate that process uh one way we
35:09talked about it internally is this IDM
35:10as that you're always trying to explore
35:13and how do you proactively see which
35:17branches of admas are worth prioritizing
35:19worth going deep on um if you can figure
35:22that out quickly then you're able to
35:26pick the right branch to go down and
35:30that's the stuff that you might go and
35:31work with through with a team so I I
35:34think that's that's pretty exciting if
35:35you can bring things to life quickly but
35:37yeah more broadly figma was never meant
35:40to just be a design tool and the more
35:42that we can expand out as a platform uh
35:46the more we can think about that entire
35:47value chain of how software is created
35:50uh everything from that first idea but
35:52also through to alignment to not just
35:55design and and coding but how do you
35:57ship it how do you measure it how do you
35:58experiment how do you keep going from
36:01there um I I just think there's such
36:03opportunity didn't this is a great
36:05conversation thanks so much for finally
36:07joining us yeah thanks for joining us
36:09thank you for having
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