01:49Welcome to UX Evenings @ Google.
01:51I'm so glad that
you could join us.
01:54My name is Julie
Schiller I am the UX APAC
01:58Culture and Community lead.
02:00And I also work a
lot on monetization.
02:03I sit here in Singapore.
02:05I wanted to welcome you
all to the very last UX
02:12We've had an amazing
year together.
02:14And I just wanted to check
out first and foremost
02:18who's joined us before live.
02:20So drop in the chat if you've
come to one, two, three,
02:25or if this is your first one.
02:27We're so glad you came.
02:29We have had a lot of connection
through this session.
02:33We have about 10,000 viewers
who watch these videos and also
02:40about 2,000 people who dial
in live, so feeling hopeful.
02:46If you are interested in this
video, [INAUDIBLE] later or one
02:50of our past ones, you
can check them out
02:52on Google Design's
YouTube channel.
02:56But one thing I've never
gotten to share with you guys
02:58before is why do this.
03:01So first and
foremost, we're trying
03:02to build closer connections
in the UX community in APAC.
03:06Also we want to have an
interactive discussion, which
03:09is why we chose this format.
03:12Our goal is to connect
you with fresh insights
03:14from leaders in our field.
03:16But also we need
to hear from you.
03:19I'd love if you could
enter into the comments
03:22now why you join these events.
03:25Also if you have any
topic ideas for 2021,
03:29we're interested
in hearing them,
03:31because we're actually
thinking through what we'll
03:33be doing in the next year.
03:36Please take a moment to do that.
03:38And when it's
gotten in the chat,
03:40I want to spend a
little time telling you
03:42about today's topic,
which is UX and inclusion.
03:48We're going to hear from
three amazing UX leaders.
03:51And they're going
to talk about how
03:52to include more diverse
users in our work
03:56and also how we do our work.
03:59First, I'm so excited
to introduce to you,
04:02our very own Margaret Lee.
04:06She is the Director of
UX Community and Culture
04:09here at Google, a program
that she founded in 2016.
04:14And it serves to empower the
global internal community
04:19Before that, she led
UX on Google Maps
04:22from its very early days and
its groundbreaking desktop
04:25experience all the way
through the transition
04:28to an indispensable
tool for navigation
04:30and local exploration.
04:32Under her leadership, the Maps
team went from a few designers
04:36into this global organization
with multiple disciplines.
04:41And this work was actually
awarded some pretty cool
04:45recognition by Fast
Company Innovation
04:48and also Good Design
Awards in Japan.
04:51So Margaret's been doing
this for 20 years in the tech
04:55And this is why she's
the perfect person
04:58to talk with us tonight.
05:00She has continued to affirm
what she's the most passionate
05:03about, which is about creating
the conditions where teams can
05:06flourish, individuals
can undercover
05:08their unique leadership styles.
05:11So Margaret often
speaks and writes
05:13about her personal
journey and all
05:15of our collective responsibility
to advance diversity
05:18and inclusion in the workplace.
05:21So today, she is joining
us from California,
05:23where she's going to
share some of her insights
05:25about being a UX leader.
05:27Listen closely for her five
tips on how to make your own UX
05:32organization more inclusive.
05:33Which tip resonates
more clearly with you?
05:37Also, enter your questions
in the chat and we'll
05:40reply back during the talk.
05:42Once at the end,
there is a Q&A where
05:45you're going to hear
from all three speakers.
05:48Over to you, Margaret.
05:52I want to tell you about
my rather reluctant journey
05:54into leadership and what it's
taught me about inclusion.
05:58Who I am as a leader has
been deeply influenced
06:01by my life experience and by
my dad and his life experience.
06:05This is us in Boston,
Massachusetts,
06:07where he immigrated to
and where I grew up.
06:10My father was a paper
son, an illegal immigrant.
06:14He was just 15 when he left
the family village in China.
06:17Once in America, he lived in the
shadows of the outside world.
06:21He worked really hard.
06:23And he kept within the
Chinese community that
06:25felt safe and familiar to him.
06:28He worked at his
uncle's laundry,
06:30eventually earning enough
to get an arranged marriage.
06:33As for the women
in my family, they
06:35worked at the garment
factory, sewing all day,
06:37then bringing home big
bags of collars or cuffs
06:40to sew for an additional pennies
per piece late into the night.
06:44So the chatter of
visiting aunties
06:46and the hum of
the sewing machine
06:48was the soundtrack of
my childhood, which
06:51had a strong sense of
insularity and expectation
06:53to do my chores, get good
grades, stay out of trouble,
06:57and not be conspicuous.
06:59My family situation was actually
common within our community.
07:02But as a kid, I was keenly
aware of the stereotype
07:07My parents worked in a
Chinese laundry and sweatshop.
07:10I was born of an
arranged marriage.
07:13I brought strange food
my lunchbox every day.
07:15I mean, to the outside
world, I did not exactly
07:19convey that I was a future
leader in the making.
07:23After the laundry
closed, my dad went on
07:26to work in one suburban Chinese
restaurant after another.
07:29First in the back of the
house doing the grueling jobs
07:32of dishwasher and then
cook, and eventually, he
07:35moved to the better
jobs in the front,
07:38as a waiter, and
then a bartender.
07:41And getting these
front of the house jobs
07:43was like getting a promotion.
07:45But it came with a trade off.
07:46Because in the back of the
house, he could be himself,
07:49talk to his co-workers
in their shared language.
07:52He was comfortable in his skin.
07:54But once he passed through
those kitchen doors
07:56to wait on customers in
the front of the house,
07:58he had to assume a
whole other persona.
08:01And this took a lot
of energy and effort
08:03to not just learn and
speak a second language,
08:06but to understand the social
norms of his customers
08:09who are mostly white
suburban and middle class.
08:11It was like learning
a third language.
08:14And this was a metaphor
as I went to school,
08:17graduated into the workforce,
and proceeded down a leadership
08:22I carried that same
duality of back and front
08:24of the house personas.
08:27I had been taught to
go with the flow, don't
08:30make waves, be humble, and
respect my elders at all costs.
08:35Leaders on the other
hand, especially in tech,
08:38are absolutely revered for
thinking disruptively, being
08:42highly visible as the front
man, and for rebelliously
08:46paving their own way.
08:48Early in my career, checking my
life experiences at that door,
08:53it just felt easier
than bringing
08:54my whole authentic
self to work every day.
08:59I only realized this,
actually, a couple of years
09:01ago when I attended this
women's leadership retreat
09:03and I was taking part in a
conversation about leading
09:07I found myself talking about
this underlying duality
09:10that I felt for so many
years between back and front
09:13of the house personas.
09:15And as it turned out, my story
resonated with many other women
09:19at the retreat who then
told me their feelings
09:21of mismatched backgrounds
and expectations.
09:23And it really struck
me, wow, I'm not alone.
09:26I mean, how many
of us are making
09:29these kinds of trade offs
between our true selves
09:32and what we think we're
supposed to be at work.
09:34And what can we do about it?
09:37Well, I believe that if we can
just broaden our perspective
09:41on what leadership
is, we'll naturally
09:43create more diverse and
inclusive organizations.
09:47And in turn, that
culture of inclusiveness
09:49will reflect in the products
and experiences that we create.
09:54So let's look at five ways that
we can broaden our perspective
09:57on inclusion and leadership.
10:00First, let's forget culture fit.
10:02Because when we look for
people who fit our culture,
10:05what we're really doing is
reinforcing the boundaries
10:08of our existing comfort zone.
10:10You know we're sticking
with what's familiar.
10:13We might consider values
alignment over culture fit.
10:16Companies like
[INAUDIBLE] and Pandora
10:18think about a "culture add."
10:20And both these
approaches acknowledge
10:21that, hey, a person
can be in alignment
10:24with the company's values.
10:25But they can also
add to the diversity
10:27of thought on a daily
basis and at a team level.
10:31Not only will it
definitely be more
10:33interesting to have
more perspectives,
10:36but studies have shown that
diversity is good for business.
10:39And it's good for the products
and experiences that we build.
10:44I want to tell you about
accent hallucination, which
10:46is a phenomenon
that happens when
10:48people imagine an accent
when none actually exists.
10:51And then they assign some
kind of meaning to it.
10:54In a 1992 study,
participants listened
10:57to a recording of
a lecture delivered
10:59by somebody who speaks quote,
unquote, "standard English."
11:02And while listening, they
viewed either a photo
11:04of an Asian woman or a
photo of a white woman.
11:08And those that saw
the Asian woman
11:10ended up rating the
lecture as less clear, less
11:13understandable, and they had
measurably worse comprehension
11:16compared to the
other group who saw
11:17the photo of the white woman,
despite the fact that they
11:20heard the exact same recording.
11:23By the way, the study was
repeated more recently
11:25using an Asian woman photo
and a fixation cross.
11:29And the outcome was no better.
11:31The group found the Asian woman
to be actually less credible
11:34than the fixation cross.
11:36But this is what
unconscious bias does.
11:38It makes assumptions.
11:42Now we all have some deep
seated cultural assumptions that
11:45don't actually fit reality.
11:48Are we willing to
own up to that, even
11:50if it makes us uncomfortable?
11:53But facing our discomfort
is a necessary step
11:57towards realizing a future
that could be more fair.
12:01Number two, listen to learn.
12:04Listening is hard
work, as we just saw.
12:06But you know what's harder?
12:09This book talks about
different styles of listening.
12:13And as busy
professionals, we tend
12:15to be very, very efficient
in our communications,
12:17whether it's a
one on one, a team
12:19meeting, or a presentation.
12:21We're either listening
to win a point
12:23or we're listening
to fix something.
12:26Now listening to win, our mind
is essentially already made up.
12:29And we're just
collecting evidence
12:30to reinforce our point.
12:32My daughter Sophie happens
to be really good at this.
12:35She's like a lawyer.
12:37And in the second style,
called listening to fix,
12:40we're also gathering evidence.
12:42But this time we're
trying to narrow
12:44in on a solution for a problem.
12:47So you can imagine
our day to day,
12:48we tend to stick
to these two styles
12:50because they help us
efficiently move things forward.
12:54But when we're faced with
situations or cultures
12:57that we have little
prior exposure to,
12:59it don't work so well.
13:00Because why would we fix
or win over something
13:03that we don't yet
understand, right?
13:06And this is where listening
to learn comes in.
13:09Unlike listening to
win and fix, which
13:11get us to narrow in on
something, listening to learn
13:14is about expanding
our understanding
13:17without any
assumptions going in.
13:20So why is it so
important for inclusion
13:23for us to listen to learn?
13:25Well, a lack of
voice and not feeling
13:27heard is a really common
struggle for people
13:31from underrepresented groups, or
introverts, or our soft spoken.
13:35And I'm going to
assume that this
13:39describes some people that
we work with, I would hope.
13:41We don't want these people
to get lost in the mix
13:45amongst the more
talkative ones, right?
13:48We want to give voice
to more perspectives
13:50and lived experiences, not
just to those in the majority.
13:56Number three, expand
our frame of reference.
14:00This article is a
very good example
14:03of a fixed frame of reference.
14:05My husband is British, so
you could call him an expat.
14:08No one even blinks an eye.
14:10But never in 100
years did anyone ever
14:13call my dad an expat.
14:14Because he was categorized
as an immigrant,
14:17even after he gained
citizenship, right?
14:20So how we talk about
others and to others
14:23reveals our own double standards
and categorical biases.
14:26Because this categorization
without any curiosity
14:30is basically reverse engineering
some notion of culture
14:33fit and doesn't lead to
any new perspectives.
14:35So can we ask ourselves,
are we categorizing,
14:38or are we being curious?
14:41Does our frame of reference
assume a fixed perspective,
14:44or is it open to
new possibilities?
14:47Number four, immerse ourselves
into both the problem
14:54One of the challenges that I see
with many corporate diversity
14:58inclusion programs is
that it's sometimes
15:00treated like an
extracurricular activity rather
15:03than a mindset and a behavior
that we're all accountable for.
15:07In 2011, "Forbes"
surveyed 300 executives.
15:11And 65% of them said
that they thought,
15:13diversity and inclusion
was the responsibility
15:15of their HR department,
not themselves, but HR.
15:20Hiring is measurable.
15:22But metrics just lull us into
this false sense of progress.
15:27Ticking that demographic box
does not create inclusion.
15:31I mean, what happens after
somebody is onboarded?
15:34Are we going to respect
the differences,
15:37or will we expect conformity?
15:39We can't outsource
this one to HR.
15:42We all need to be accountable
for addressing the problem
15:45of inclusion however we can.
15:48I'll give you one small example.
15:51Non-promotable tasks
are projects not
15:54associated with the bottom line.
15:56They're generally about
community good or service.
15:59And a study showed that
women tend to volunteer more
16:02for these things, or are asked
to volunteer more, voluntold,
16:06and they accept more requests
to volunteer than men do.
16:11You know, if women are
spending more time than men
16:13on non-promotable
tasks, that might
16:15explain why there are
fewer women advancing
16:19So my team works across the
company on many, many different
16:25And we rely heavily
on volunteer support.
16:27They take part in mentoring,
peer-to-peer training,
16:30defining best practices.
16:32And it was really
important to me
16:33that we firmly recognize the
value that volunteers bring.
16:37So we changed the system
to make it more fair.
16:40We took our career
ladders, which
16:42define performance criteria,
but we added a citizenship
16:48And this change lets
us know that, hey,
16:50if work is worth
doing, it's worth
16:52acknowledging and recognizing.
16:54It eliminates unfair burden
on any one group like women,
16:57and it gets more people
contributing to the betterment
17:01So can we take a look at
our policies, our product
17:05development practices, with
an eye towards fairness?
17:08Because once we're
intentional, we
17:10will see things
that can be improved
17:13from a small thing
like a team ritual
17:15to a big thing like
a company policy.
17:17We can make meaningful
change, step by step.
17:22And finally, number
five, value non-jerks.
17:27We harbor this totally romantic
notion of the tech god.
17:31These are leaders
with strong vision
17:33and a passion that makes us
hang on to their every word.
17:37And because of that,
we're willing to overlook
17:39some less good
traits, like being
17:43arrogant or temperamental
or unreasonable,
17:45because we tend to value vision
and passion above all else.
17:50However, a study found that
humble leaders actually
17:53create more collaborative
environments.
17:56They're self-aware and open
to other people's ideas
17:59Humble leaders focus on the how,
while charismatic visionaries
18:04tend to focus on the what.
18:05The thing is both of
these are important,
18:08and there's room for both.
18:10Leadership qualities
shouldn't be a zero sum game.
18:12We don't need to make trade
offs, one for the other.
18:14We just need to make
room for more types.
18:19Walt Disney, a great
visionary himself,
18:22recognized that having the
idea is just the beginning.
18:25He understood the
need to balance
18:27the visionary or the dreamer
with a realist, someone
18:31to make it happen, or the how.
18:33And yet a third
role, the critic,
18:35to ensure excellence by
asking the why or the why not.
18:40If you could dream it,
you can do it, he said.
18:42And he valued different types
of leaders to realize the dream.
18:46So quickly recapping,
what can we do?
18:49We can forget culture fit and
be willing to get uncomfortable
18:52with the unknown so that we can
move beyond our assumptions.
18:56We can take the time to listen
to learn, resist the urge
18:59to fill the silences or
fix things before we really
19:03Expand our frame of
reference and explore
19:06multiple perspectives.
19:08Immerse ourselves
into both the problem
19:10and the solution of creating
that inclusive culture.
19:13Because what's the point of
being diverse if we're not
19:15going to be inclusive?
19:17And of course, value non-jerks
to discover just how rich
19:21and multifaceted that
leadership can be.
19:26But it's going to
take intention.
19:28And I believe the
payoff will be great,
19:30with a more diverse and
inclusive culture reflected
19:33at all levels of the
organization and in our work.
19:37So before I go, I just want to
leave you with one more story.
19:40I've talked to you today about
my past and the influence
19:43that my dad has had.
19:44And I want to just take a
moment to peek into the future
19:46to tell you about my daughter.
19:49When Sophie was four,
her preschool teacher
19:52called me into her office.
19:53And Miss Judy started
the conversation with,
19:56"In my 25 years
of teaching, I've
19:59never lost control
of the class as when
20:01Sophie starts clowning around."
20:04So this went on for a bit
when her feedback actually
20:09The good news, she
said, is that these are
20:11signs of a natural born leader.
20:13If we can just direct
her tendencies,
20:15she'll do just fine.
20:18I mean, Sophie is now 16.
20:19And the story has just
stuck with me since.
20:21Not only as her
mother looking out
20:24to get the best out of her, but
also as someone who just never
20:27has identified with being a
natural born leader, right?
20:30What exactly were
those qualities
20:32that she saw in
four-year-old Sophie?
20:35Well, clearly, fearless
in the face of authority,
20:40she's a class clown, AKA, she
has a commanding presence.
20:44She has a disruptive mindset.
20:46She likes to question all
the rules before taking part.
20:50She has a strong point of view
about everything, which she
20:53uses to relentlessly debate me.
20:56Remember, she's the
listen to win type.
20:59She doesn't like hearing
no for an answer.
21:02So while these might
not be great traits
21:06in the preschool
classroom, they really
21:08are the same traits that we seem
to value in our current model
21:14But I know that while
Sophie might have a head
21:17start by nature,
she's going to need
21:18to balance these traits
with other qualities
21:20to become a well-rounded leader
and a balanced human being.
21:23And she's doing
great, by the way.
21:25I mean, all of us have both
natural abilities and latent
21:29skills that need to be
nurtured and developed
21:31in concert with one another.
21:33And if we can pave the
way for more people
21:36from all types of backgrounds
to realize their potential,
21:39we might see more hope
and less reluctance.
21:43So my late dad might
be surprised to see
21:45me talking to you from the
front of the house today.
21:48But I know it's not just about
me or his influence anymore.
21:52Because I have Sophie to nurture
towards her full potential.
21:55So whether you're a reluctant,
like me, or natural,
21:57like Sophie, remember,
we all have the potential
22:01for authentic and
inclusive leadership.
22:03Let's value that in
ourselves and open up
22:06the possibilities for others.
22:09Thank you so much for listening.
22:13JULIE SCHILLER: Thank you for
that moving talk, Margaret,
22:16and also sharing
your own experiences.
22:20I did want to remind
all of you to share
22:22your questions in the chat.
22:24And also, I'd love to hear
some of your own experiences
22:27bringing inclusion and
diversity to your organizations.
22:30Are you a reluctant
leader or a natural one?
22:34Also, take a minute
and think what's
22:37one thing you or others like
you could commit to in 2021
22:41to ensure authentic
and inclusive
22:44leadership in your workplace?
22:47While you take a minute
to think about that,
22:49I am going to introduce
you to our next speaker
22:53from a little closer to home.
22:54We are lucky to be joined by
Eyung Lim and Joy Ng from tech.
23:00Eeng is leading the
cross-functional team
23:03of product delivery managers,
designers and engineers
23:07at, which he'll tell
us about in a minute.
23:11His team is supporting
government agencies
23:13in developing products
and solutions that
23:15are impacting many people
here in Singapore [INAUDIBLE],,
23:18using agile and
user-centric design.
23:21The team works on a lot of
strategic national projects,
23:24like Life SG, or
Moments of Life,
23:27you might be familiar
with, Singapore government
23:29tech stack products, such
as whole of government
23:32applications analytics,
COVID projects,
23:35such as everyone's
favorite [INAUDIBLE]
23:36Together and Go Where series.
23:39His team has a special interest
in calling in social sector
23:42projects to support
vulnerable groups, which
23:45is why I think it's going to
be a pretty interesting topic
23:49He's lucky to be joined
in conversation with Joy.
23:51Joy is a UX designer on the Gov
Tech Assisted Living Ecosystem
23:56Before GovTech, she worked
at some fintech companies.
24:00And before that,
she was an academic,
24:02designing some
crowdsourcing platforms
24:04for exploring spaces and
thinking about smart trackers
24:07for empowering
people with dementia
24:09and also understanding
digital possessions.
24:12She has a great background
to share with us
24:14from her publications
and presentations
24:17at conferences such as
[INAUDIBLE] and also
24:20her master's in communication
and new media from NUS.
24:23This exciting talk
will tell you all
24:27about how to be inclusive
in your product work
24:31How do you ensure
that everyone is
24:34included for important
things like government mask
24:38Be sure to share your questions
during this talk in the chat.
24:42And we'll answer them
at the end of the talk
24:44in the last part, which
is the Q&A. Thank you
24:47so much and over to you, guys.
24:52EYUNG LIM: Hello, everyone.
24:54It's a very honor to be
invited to be here together
24:59with Joy, our
talented UX designer,
25:02to share with you our little
journey on this useability
25:08So we came from this
team called from GovTech.
25:10We call ourselves the Digital
Design and Development team.
25:13And just as the
name has suggested,
25:16we are the team
in government that
25:18deal with the design
and development
25:20of the various common products.
25:22And these are just
some of the products
25:24that we have been working on.
25:26But without further
ado, allow me
25:28to invite Joy to start the
sharing of our little journey
25:38So today Eyung
and I, we're going
25:40to share stories
on how we design
25:41for inclusivity, or at least
trying to be amidst a pandemic.
25:47And we are going to
share two chapters
25:49on what we have learned.
25:50So this first chapter
is a story on how
25:52I grabbed onto an opportunity
to do inclusivity.
25:56I hope it inspires
people to just do it.
25:58Because it cost no
harm to anyone and it's
26:03And to begin, you
probably already know
26:05what is inclusivity.
26:08Because we all know the
feeling of being included
26:10in a conversation in a party,
or generally being included,
26:14feeling like you're
part of something.
26:16So inclusivity to
us, to our team,
26:19is about embracing a
mindset, to design for people
26:22with and without impairments.
26:24An easy way to
think of inclusivity
26:26is to think of exclusion.
26:28Who are excluded from using
your design or your products?
26:32It can be physical exclusion,
conceptual exclusion,
26:35economic exclusion,
cultural exclusion,
26:38or even social exclusion.
26:39And these categories, they
are mutually exclusive.
26:47And before COVID,
we have considered
26:49inclusivity features.
26:52But of course, to aim to
include everyone and anybody
26:55can only be a dream.
26:57In practical, this is how
we treat inclusivity tickets
27:02So referencing the decision
tree for inclusivity analysis,
27:06from Benyon's book,
this is a nice structure
27:09to explain my team's
decision making process.
27:12It's good for a presentation
avenue like this.
27:15But in actual, it's messier than
this linear diagram suggests.
27:19This analysis model is
based on the assumption
27:21that it's not realistic
to include everybody.
27:25So when considering to
make inclusion a must have,
27:28which is mandatory, a should
have, strongly recommended,
27:31or a could have,
optional, we should first
27:35consider the stability
of user characteristics,
27:38whether it is
fixed or temporary.
27:42Then we look at whether
the incident of occurrence
27:48And if the solution is
going to be cheap, easy,
27:51or expensive [INAUDIBLE].
27:53So I'll give you an example.
27:55For instance, we have
elderly app users who are not
27:58so nimble with their fingers.
28:00This dexterity impairment
may be long-term.
28:03It is rather common, as well.
28:05And a solution for
our context, we
28:08have decided to make
the tap target bigger.
28:11This is cheap and
easy for us to do.
28:13And this ticket is quickly added
to a screen, and we fix it.
28:16So inclusion here is mandatory.
28:18I'll give you another example.
28:20We have an elderly user
who is living alone.
28:22She is deaf and she is using
our two-way communication panic
28:25button developed by [INAUDIBLE].
28:27This user characteristic
is going to be long-term.
28:31The incident occurring
is rare, and the solution
28:34is rather expensive, though.
28:35We have to manufacture a
different hardware device that
28:39deviates from the current one.
28:41So inclusion here is
considered as optional.
28:46But, of course, we just
cannot leave this hanging.
28:48We make some changes to
the responding model,
28:50such that, when she
presses the button,
28:52we are treating them as legit
cases and we send somebody up
28:59Now, before COVID,
we also attempted
29:01to introduce translated
copy multilingual feature.
29:05So English is working
language in Singapore.
29:07Everyone, by right,
should be able to speak
29:09English, or written English.
29:12But the reality is, not
everyone is able to do so.
29:15So we really want to
implement multi-language
29:17for all our products.
29:19So at a period of
time, I start with one
29:21of our smallest [INAUDIBLE]
projects called ResponderSG.
29:23It is a crowdsourcing
mobile app.
29:26Our devs has spiked from
the multilingual feature
29:28and all set up to go.
29:29So they ask me, Joy, where
is the copy we are reading?
29:34So I begin looking around.
29:37And I ask around, in
the government, how
29:39do we usually do translation?
29:41They said, there are
two ways to do it.
29:42Number one,
commercial translator.
29:44Number two, look for my
fellow MCI colleagues
29:47who can help with
the translation.
29:49But commercial ones, I've
been told the quality varies.
29:51And my MCI colleagues
are rather busy--
29:54they have a very long backlog.
29:56So I would have to
wait a long time.
29:59And we have been
pre-warned that the quality
30:01of our translation [INAUDIBLE]
here really, really matters.
30:03There have been several cases
of translation blunder--
30:07translation for Tamil
language is especially tricky.
30:13So long story short-- since
the cost of doing translation
30:15is rather expensive
and somewhat difficult,
30:17I have to put this
into the backlog,
30:22even though this is a strongly
recommended inclusion.
30:26And then, COVID strikes.
30:28We have to come up with
a website within 24
30:30hours for the mass
distribution exercise
30:33by the Singapore government.
30:37By the next day,
after the launch,
30:39we are already looking at
translating the content
30:42to the multilingual function.
30:44Because everyone in
the team recognized
30:46that information is key
to winning this COVID war.
30:48We want more people to be able
to access that information.
30:54We depend on our volunteers.
30:58So we got volunteers
from the team itself.
31:01Our team is an one
hundred-man-strong team.
31:05They are about to have people
who are proficient in Mandarin,
31:09So you know how we have code
review in software development?
31:12We brought that practice to do a
copy review to our translation.
31:16This is how ensure quality.
31:17We even have debates
on how [INAUDIBLE]
31:19should be translated in Tamil.
31:21Group discussion makes
the quality better,
31:23even though we are just
amateur translators.
31:26And by the third day,
the translation feature
31:30The pandemic accelerated
the process of inclusivity.
31:34Once the translation,
too, is up,
31:37we receive good feedback
from Sentiments.
31:39So Sentiments is this floating
F smiley icon that you see here,
31:43which you see on most of the
Singapore government website
31:49Sentiment, as a
tool, is pretty cool.
31:51With this tool, we are able
to see what is most important
31:54to a citizen in real time
based on a 10K sentiment rating
31:59and 1.3K actionable feedback.
32:02We made another 40
deployments within a week
32:04to resolve some of these issues.
32:06And as you can see from
the purple-colored box,
32:09you can see that, before the
multilingual feature is up,
32:12there are a lot of
complaints on the language.
32:16As time passed, we
realized the need
32:18to set up in-house
translation capability.
32:21We didn't scale this up.
32:23So doing translation
is taxing if we only
32:27depend on volunteers.
32:29It's taxing on our volunteers.
32:30Our volunteers have
to have potential.
32:32They are software engineers,
they are quality engineers,
32:36And we got them in to volunteer.
32:39But it requires quick
turnaround time.
32:41So we end up hiring
our own translators.
32:44Translation is also
texting our developers.
32:46Because our product
wasn't [INAUDIBLE]
32:49for localization at the start.
32:51So we have to
improve the process
32:52where to translate the copy
directly goes to court.
32:56And so we implement a content
management system for this.
33:01Now, ever since our in-house
translation capability
33:05was built up, there are several
products that have benefited.
33:08Support GoWhere, TraceTogether,
Token GoWhere, My Legacy,
33:13and our following
any other products
33:15that we are going to launch.
33:19So at the end of it all,
mindset trumps everything--
33:23inclusivity, accessibility,
universal design.
33:26You all have to
rely on the internet
33:28to find out how to do this,
but it all begins with empathy.
33:32So inclusivity
begins with design.
33:36But it is not just
the designer's task.
33:38Everyone in this plays
a role, and making
33:42everybody feel involved
in this journey
33:44is the key to do inclusivity.
33:46Here you see our
organization participating
33:49in Pop-Up [INAUDIBLE]
Pop-Up [INAUDIBLE]
33:52is an event that celebrates
the ability of people
33:55Everyone in this picture--
33:56developers, curious
designers, PMs, even our CE--
34:02We are now part of this
movement for inclusivity.
34:06And through this
change of mindset,
34:07it is my hope that
our team will now
34:09be determined to see
through to implement
34:11mandatory inclusion, no matter
how hard, how expensive,
34:15how difficult it is to
do universal design.
34:19Now I'm going to round out my
story with four tips on how
34:21to just do it for exclusivity.
34:23Number one, be
opportunistic and strategic
34:25when introducing
inclusivity to your team.
34:28And don't get discouraged
when the team isn't right.
34:31Seize the moment
when you see one.
34:34Don't aim to be perfect.
34:36I try to do a proper way--
the government's way--
34:39of doing translation.
34:41I got intimidated when
they say that translation
34:44has to be so and so.
34:46So aim to be good enough,
but don't aim to be perfect.
34:50Number three, measure
and show result.
34:52After you do something,
release an inclusivity feature,
34:57measure it, and show it to
people who can make a decision.
35:00Keep convincing them
that it is worth it.
35:02Because it's going
to be a long journey.
35:04There is so much to work on.
35:05And number four, be sure to
on-board the entire development
35:09It shouldn't be a
designer task alone.
35:11Be inclusive about
inclusivity itself.
35:15So this is my story
about inclusivity.
35:18I will now pass the
time back to Eyung.
35:21EYUNG LIM: Thank
you so much, Joy.
35:23So I think joy ended the sharing
with a very important point
35:28about, inclusivity is not
just about the designer.
35:32And that also provides me
a very good entry point.
35:36It is more than
just a designer job.
35:38It is more than just
a front-end problem.
35:40And this is especially so when
things are happening at scale.
35:44So what you see here are
just some of the need
35:48on the usability
and inclusivity,
35:50especially during
the COVID period.
35:52And because both Joy
and I come from GovTech,
35:59we are also looking
at, how do we address
36:03all these needs at scale?
36:05So if I may just
put all of these
36:07needs to summarize it
under four points as well.
36:11During the COVID, a lot of
[INAUDIBLE] requirements.
36:15Definitely one of the
key considerations
36:17is about the speed of execution.
36:18Because things keep changing.
36:21Every day, the COVID
number is up and down,
36:23and we have to address to the
new situation on the ground.
36:27So first point is about speed.
36:29The second part is
also about the accuracy
36:32of the detail and information.
36:34How do I make sure that, from
the back-end to the front-end,
36:36all the informations are
accurate and consistent so
36:39that it would not introduce
additional usability
36:42issues to the users.
36:43And thirdly-- I think this is
perhaps also our most important
36:51it is really about reusability.
36:53During the COVID
situation, we can't just
36:57treat every of the digital
implementation in Silo.
37:01Because that is going to take up
too much of the cost to relearn
37:05and to remake the mistake,
and to go through all the
37:10And last, but not least, of
course, at a national level,
37:12we need to implement
things at scale.
37:17So this is just one
I personally thought
37:20is a very good example to
showcase what I meant by that.
37:24So I think a lot of people
are kind of familiar with what
37:29[INAUDIBLE] Gowhere,
Food Gowhere,
37:31Support Gowhere, so
on and so forth--
37:32which is happening
at the front end.
37:34But what most people don't know
is that, today, after having
37:41gone through this
COVID situation
37:43for almost coming to
the year, a year or so,
37:46we have also evolved the code
Gowhere into a tech stack
37:51So, essentially, what
we are trying to say
37:53is that Gowhere is not just
a front-end implementation.
37:56There is a React Gowhere,
yes, which is more front-end.
37:59There is an Identity
Gowhere, which
38:00is more the authentication bit.
38:02There is a Poster Gowhere,
where which is about,
38:04how do we integrate
with the PA officer
38:07to allow this distribution of
information gap to be breached.
38:12There is also a Benefit
Engine, which talks about,
38:14how do we put all the benefit
information at one place
38:17so that people don't have to
go to many places to visit?
38:21So, essentially, by having
this as a tech stack, what
38:25we are seeing is this.
38:26First, whenever I have a new
requirement or a new need,
38:30I can easily pick and choose--
38:32OK, maybe not so easily,
but at least I do not
38:35have to start from scratch--
38:37I'm able to pick and choose
some of the reuseable elements
38:41and to cut down
some of the pinned
38:44to be able to put them
together and to be
38:47able to fulfill the new needs.
38:51And part two, perhaps
what is more important,
38:53is that, if you look at
the bottom of the screen,
38:56when we implement each
of these stack elements,
39:00we are also
progressively resolving
39:03some of the usability, as
well as the inclusivity issue.
39:09Things like
accessibility problems.
39:11Things like browser
compatibility.
39:12Things like incomplete data.
39:14Things like inconsistent
presentation
39:16and [INAUDIBLE] in it.
39:17But with the implementation
as a tech stack,
39:21I'm able to solve
once and then whatever
39:24learning point I'm
able to scale up
39:26to all the different
touchpoints by itself.
39:29And this will able to
effectively help me
39:31to address the COVID situation.
39:35Now, the other important
mindset is also
39:37about the mindset
shift of acceptability.
39:41Because it is not just about
whether my designer product,
39:46or my product, is
able to provide
39:48that kind of
inclusivity feature.
39:53A very tricky lesson to learn
is that, if the operator
39:57on the ground refuses to
take up your whatever design,
40:03they know you still can't
exert the kind of impact
40:06that you want to have.
40:08So I give three
different example.
40:10For example, on the left, it's
really about, in this case,
40:14inclusivity might not be
just our early interface with
40:17a citizen, but more about,
how do we help the government
40:20officer to work better and
efficiently to allow to convert
40:24the mode of operation
into something--
40:26we call it a tally ops amid
of the COVID situation--
40:29and allow us to solve--
40:31allow us to help the
vulnerable group better?
40:35The middle is really about,
how can we really reframe
40:41for the citizen to fulfill
certain requirements
40:44from the ethnic group, but then
we facilitate some of these,
40:48for example, ethnic
keyboard out of the box
40:50from some other
[INAUDIBLE] service
40:52touchpoint so that
the inclusivity can
40:54be out of the box
and, at the same time,
40:56cut down the operator workload?
40:58And last but not least is really
about asking the operator, what
41:01are some of the
information I need
41:04to bring up so easily
accessible at your fingertips
41:08so that you will help me
to ensure that there is
41:12a consistency and
accuracy of the data
41:15so that, at the front end, I
don't have a usability problem
41:17when the data is inaccurate?
41:19So these are some of the
important considerations
41:22that we went through
during the COVID situation.
41:26Last but not least is really
about how do we really
41:30effect this kind of
usability and accessibility
41:33at scale at a national level?
41:35So these are some of the
tools that we have built up
41:37for the whole government.
41:38So essentially, what
we are trying to say
41:40is that we have
automated this process
41:43of automated accessibility,
uptime, usability, evaluation
41:52at the prefixed time interval.
41:54And at the same time,
we try to prioritize
41:57for some of the
high-frequency touchpoint.
42:00So with that, we hope that
accessibility and usability
42:03can be something that is out
of the box for the government
42:09So I think to sum
up the story here,
42:11it's really about, how do we
optimize UX and inclusivity
42:18for reusability
and acceptability,
42:21not just only for the front-end
user but for the operator
42:26as well, so that you can really
exert the kind of impact you
42:31Thank you very much.
42:32That's a short sharing
by Joy and myself.
42:35And if there's anything,
feel free to reach out to us.
42:39We are happy to carry on
with the discussion further.
42:51JULIE SCHILLER: What a
great talk, Eyung and Joy.
42:54I really enjoyed seeing
some of the tools
42:57that you've built in-house.
42:58And I love to hear
those listening in live.
43:02Tell us, guys,
what tools are you
43:04using to increase inclusion and
accessibility in your products?
43:09What's a technique that you've
used to increase inclusion
43:11and that you think
others should consider?
43:14Finally, I'm really
excited to introduce
43:18an awesome Singapore-based
founder of a pretty
43:21cool and inclusive startup.
43:23I am proud to introduce Xi Liu.
43:26Xi is the founder of a startup
called Ferne Health, which
43:29we'll hear about in a minute.
43:31And it builds this private,
convenient, accessible
43:34healthcare solutions
for women consumers.
43:37Before starting her
company she lived
43:38in Silicon Valley for five
years in the tech industry.
43:41She worked at a lot
of cool companies
43:43over there, which she'll
tell us more about,
43:45such as [? Ilbi, ?] at Amazon.
43:48And one thing that's
really cool with Xi
43:51is that she's a strong believer
in equality and diversity.
43:54And when she lived
in San Francisco
43:55she was strongly encouraged
by the cultural inclusion
43:58and diversity there, and
decided to bring that
44:01to some of the stigma against
women's health concerns
44:05So I'm really excited to
hear this talk with you,
44:07because did you know that almost
half the people in the world
44:14And how we include females'
user needs in our work
44:17is an exciting opportunity.
44:19So please ask all
your questions for Xi
44:22that she can answer in the
Q&A. Pop them into the chat.
44:31Thanks for joining
us this evening.
44:33My name is Xi,
from Ferne Health.
44:36Today I will be
talking about one
44:38of my favorite design topics,
empathy and inclusion design.
44:44So first, a little
bit about myself.
44:46I started my career as
an interaction designer
44:49and worked in the Photoshop
team for two years.
44:52Then I moved on to Alexa team.
44:54And there I did my transition
from a product designer
44:58to a product manager.
45:00Now I'm based in Singapore.
45:02I manage my own
healthcare startup.
45:05We are a women's
health care startup
45:07that provides at-home
screening and consultation
45:10solutions for sexual health.
45:12So if you look at
all of the keywords
45:14that I took from
our website, you
45:16might find a lot of
interesting words
45:18about sexual health,
woman, sexuality.
45:22You might be thinking,
oh, this person
45:24must be really progressive.
45:26But I wasn't always like this.
45:29In fact, a few years ago I
was exactly like this girl.
45:33That we interviewed
during user research.
45:36My mom always told me, oh, you
don't need the gynecology test.
45:41You are not married.
45:42So you don't have to be
worried about anything.
45:46I never thought about
going to a gyne visit
45:50until, four years ago, a
small incident happened
45:53that changed my mind.
45:56Back in 2016, about
four years ago,
45:58I was actually in San
Francisco, living by myself,
46:02and just started working
not for too long.
46:05One night I all of
a sudden noticed
46:08that there were some really
weird rashes behind my ear.
46:13But I thought, oh, it
might just be allergy,
46:15so I didn't pay
too much attention.
46:18And just a few hours
later the rashes
46:21actually spreaded from my
ear to the back of my neck.
46:24I went to the nearest
pharmacy and got pretty much
46:27all of the allergy
treatment that I could find.
46:31But things just got worse.
46:33About two, three
days later the rashes
46:36actually spreaded
from my ear to my neck
46:38and to my chest and my back.
46:40And they were so itchy.
46:42It was the worst
experience I've ever had.
46:47I was home and helpless.
46:49And the worst part
was, I literally
46:52learned that I didn't
know how to book a doctor.
46:54I didn't know how
to use my insurance.
46:56I didn't even know which kind
of doctor I should be going for.
47:00Eventually my friend actually
helped me to find a doctor,
47:06And turned it out it
wasn't allergy at all.
47:09It was a poison either
from oak or something
47:12that I accidentally ate.
47:15But that whole incident
actually changed my perspective
47:18about my health, because when
I was home just being alone
47:22I realized nothing is more
important than your own health.
47:28When you are actually
physically sick
47:30you can't really do too much.
47:31You can't chase your dreams.
47:32You can't think about romance.
47:34You just want to feel better.
47:37So I went to my first
doctor visit right
47:40after that incident.
47:42And during that visit he
asked me a lot of questions
47:46about my health histories--
47:47what kind of vaccination
you have taken,
47:49have you done a pap smear,
have you done your annual exam?
47:53I literally knew nothing.
47:55I'd never heard about pap smear.
47:57And I didn't take the
vaccination for HPV yet.
48:00And I didn't even realize
that STD is such a thing
48:04that you should be screening
for as a sexually active adult.
48:09When I left my doctor's
office I just felt so ashamed.
48:13So I went back and talked to
quite a few friends and just
48:16checking, was I the only one
who didn't know anything?
48:20And what we learned first--
48:22when it comes to woman
there are just so
48:25many things that are taboo
that no one is talking about.
48:30And there are just not
enough products or services
48:33that are available out there
for us to learn about ourselves.
48:38Eventually, when I decided
I'm going to start a business
48:42I actually decided to
take this as a cause,
48:46because just going through
this whole experience
48:48and feeling helpless by
knowing nothing about myself
48:53just triggered me too much.
48:56So now I run my
healthcare startup.
48:58Even coming from a very
product design and management
49:02standpoint, I personally find it
was such an interesting journey
49:06for me to relearn this
whole design experience.
49:11There are quite a
few things we learned
49:12throughout this journey.
49:14And the first learning
point was, it's so simple.
49:17But when in reality it
actually takes time for you
49:21to process that when your users
are not talking about the thing
49:25it really doesn't mean
they do not need it.
49:28For example, a lot
of women actually
49:31have concerns about their
sexual health or reproductivity.
49:3570% of women actually have
contracted yeast infection
49:40And 80% of women who
are sexually active--
49:43they have got HPV positive
at some point in their life.
49:47But when you go out and talk
to your users you will find
49:51not many women actually feel
comfortable talking about this.
49:55And there's not a lot of
platforms available for women
49:59It's very easy for
people to think
50:02this is a very small market,
that no one have these needs.
50:06But this is definitely not true.
50:09Another taboo topic is
actually birth control.
50:13Almost in every
part of the world
50:16birth control is a very
controversial topic,
50:20and especially in a lot
of places in Asia, because
50:23of our culture and
religions, a lot of women
50:26face difficulties getting
access to birth controls.
50:30But that really doesn't
mean they do not
50:32need birth controls.
50:33It's actually the opposite.
50:35They need better help.
50:37But we don't hear their
voice loud enough yet.
50:42The second learning
point we found
50:44was to how to avoid
bias and really
50:47stand into your users' shoes.
50:50Coming from a design
background I often
50:52felt very confident about
that I knew my users,
50:56I understand their
language, especially when
50:58I started designing
for a product that's
51:00for my own people, that I
am part of the targeted user
51:05But sometimes people really
have a different expectation.
51:09For example, most
of my friends when
51:11they started talking
about their sexual health,
51:13it's often when they are
starting a new relationship
51:17back in San Francisco.
51:19But here, when we started
getting new customers
51:22I learned that a lot of people
are coming to us because they
51:25are in a stable
relationship and they
51:28want to be a more responsible
and caring boyfriend
51:32And that's why they
care about their health.
51:36And another
interesting thing is,
51:38I got asked a lot
of silly questions
51:41since I started
working on my business.
51:43Sometimes it's coming from
a different-- the opposite
51:46sex, like some males
do not understand
51:49females' life too well.
51:51And then sometimes
it's actually coming
51:53from other, similar
women around similar age,
51:57sometimes, just
because we didn't
51:59get the same information.
52:01We probably didn't
use the same product.
52:03So they also have
a lot of questions.
52:06So trying to stand
into your user's shoes
52:08and really understand everything
from their perspective
52:12is a very important lesson.
52:16And we all know the
importance of context.
52:21And here it is extremely
important for us.
52:24For example, in Singapore
a lot of people actually
52:28live with their parents
before getting married.
52:30Even for married
couples, a lot of them
52:34actually choose to
get a bigger place
52:35and to live with their parents
so they can take better
52:38care of their older parents.
52:41But it actually matters
a lot to our service
52:44because we deliver sexual
healthcare products
52:49It meant privacy to us.
52:51But then when it comes
to some people's life--
52:54for example, some young singles
live with their parents.
52:57If it's a very
conservative family
52:59it actually means a
little bit intrusive
53:01when we send a technician to
their door to pick up the case
53:04or to send that service.
53:07So we actually spend
a lot of effort
53:09trying to redesigning
the package
53:11and to make sure it's discreet
and that our services are
53:15private enough to not
cause any information leak.
53:21Another thing, of course--
in different regions
53:23the recommendations and
regulations might be different.
53:26The expectation might
be different, too.
53:29For example, the recommended
pap smear testing age
53:32in the US and Singapore are
actually quite different.
53:36And in a lot of
regions in Asia we
53:40do have way more religions
than other parts of the world.
53:45And it's very
uniform in Singapore,
53:48but still, when we
are trying to send out
53:50a message about our product
it is very important for us
53:53to keep it in mind that the
message shouldn't offend anyone
53:57from any context, any culture.
54:02And another lesson
that I have learned--
54:06it is a very, very,
very important
54:09to never forget the minority.
54:12This is a true quote that I took
from a customer consultation,
54:17actually pretty recently.
54:19So one of our customers,
she came to us
54:22because she went through a
health screening program.
54:26And then the doctor
actually asked her
54:28if she was sexually active.
54:30But because of the way
she phrased the question
54:33she actually
indicated this is for
54:36the normal sexual intercourse.
54:38And the customer herself
replied no because she's gay
54:42and she never had sexual
intercourse with a man before.
54:47So the doctor
actually recommended
54:48her to not take a pap smear.
54:51And when she got
home she started
54:54googling what is pap smear.
54:56And then she learned-- she--
54:58it is actually very
necessary for her
55:00to take a pap smear because
she's sexually active
55:03and she's above the
recommended age.
55:07Just because a simple
miscommunication,
55:10it can cause so much
trouble for another person.
55:14This is definitely a good lesson
for us to always keep in mind,
55:18that asking the right
questions without bias,
55:22without assumptions, to
include everyone's scenario
55:29And last but not
least, which is also
55:34the biggest lesson that I have
learned from my own journey
55:38is to really
understand the emotions
55:41behind the facts and the needs.
55:44This is a real
story that-- coming
55:47from another user when
we were doing the user
55:49interviews around testings.
55:52This interviewee is actually
going through a real fertility
55:55program, and because
she and her husband
55:58have been having trouble
getting pregnant.
56:01They went to one of
the best gynecologists
56:05And after a fertility
test one of the doctors--
56:09he was very
professional until when
56:11he started explaining
the result.
56:13He turned to the patient
and looked at her,
56:16told her your eggs are not good.
56:19And because with all of the
frustration of pregnancy
56:23and also some personal
values being challenged,
56:28she felt so upset afterwards.
56:30And she decided she would never
come back to the doctor again.
56:35I personally found this
story very powerful
56:38because this is a good
message for us to always keep
56:42in mind, that simply designing a
solution that can meet people's
56:46needs is just not enough.
56:49There is way much more that we
could do by adding a little bit
56:53emotional component
to it to support
56:56our users a little bit
better can do so much more.
57:01Another example that's
a little bit heavier
57:04is also coming from one
of our real customers.
57:08She shared a story that when
she went to a public clinic
57:12for an STD test she actually
got judged by the doctor
57:16because the doctor thought she
got STD from unprotected sex,
57:20and she's super young.
57:23But what the doctor
didn't know was
57:26this customer actually
got sexually assaulted,
57:29and that's how she
contracted STD.
57:32It took her quite a
long time to get over
57:35that part of the
trauma and to decided
57:38she wanted to start a new life.
57:40And for that she
decided to do a health
57:43screening to make
sure everything is OK,
57:45everything is normal.
57:47But she got another unfair
treatment or another trauma
57:53So I think this is where
us designers can really
57:57make a huge difference,
by not simply delivering
58:01a service that's to fulfill
what people is asking for,
58:05but to really add
this emotional touch,
58:08to really emotionally
support our customers,
58:12and to really share our
empathies through our products
58:19This leads to my
summary of my learning.
58:22As a designer, when it comes
to creating new product
58:27or service, creating
new innovation,
58:30it is always so important for us
to discover the unspoken needs
58:34beyond the surface and to
understand every user's pain,
58:38even for those who we
haven't thought about,
58:42and to deliver a
service that with--
58:48And that really can
[INAUDIBLE] our users
58:51to give them more support.
58:55And I definitely
believe when we remove
58:57all of the stereotypes
and the bias
59:00we could truly
understand our users.
59:02And that's when all of the
users, all of the people
59:05who actually have needs
but have more holdbacks,
59:08that they will feel more
comfortable to share their asks
59:12and to seek for help.
59:17That's the value my company
is trying to achieve, too.
59:21And as of now we are
dedicated to breaking
59:24the taboo of women's
private concerns
59:27and bring all of the
accessible solutions
59:30to every woman's home.
59:34Thanks for listening
to my story today.
59:36If you are interested in
my business for health
59:39or want to learn more
about women's health,
59:42welcome to our website.
59:45JULIE SCHILLER: Thank
you so much, Xi.
59:47One of my favorite points
about that talk you just gave
59:50is that there are often these
taboos and cultural contexts
59:55that are embedded so
deeply in our work.
59:58And it's so important to
go beyond just ensuring
01:00:02a 50-50 gender
split and to really
01:00:04think hard about who's
not being included.
01:00:08In my own work,
just to also share,
01:00:10one area where we're thinking
about this a lot at Google
01:00:12is around gender
equity, particularly
01:00:15for users who are just coming
online for the first time.
01:00:18And if this is a topic
you're excited about
01:00:20please check us out.
01:00:21There's a lot of cool
research findings on there,
01:00:24at NextBillionUsers.google.
01:00:29Now comes to my favorite
part of the presentation.
01:00:32I'm going to invite the
speakers to join the call now,
01:00:34and we are going to answer
some of the questions we
01:00:36heard during the talk.
01:00:38The team is going to
continue to pull out more
01:00:40questions for the speakers.
01:00:41So keep those questions
and comments coming.
01:00:48JULIE SCHILLER:
Thanks, [INAUDIBLE]..
01:00:50Sorry, everyone, for
these technical troubles
01:00:54Whoever suggested this
should be done in pantomime--
01:00:57--feedback for next time.
01:01:00We wanted to wrap up with
just a few questions that
01:01:03have come through
the chat and to get
01:01:05to hear from you guys about
getting feedback from the team.
01:01:12So the question I
have for you guys
01:01:14is talking to us
about, what tips
01:01:16do you have for creating more
inclusive UX organizations?
01:01:24EYUNG LIM: Should I go again?
01:01:25JULIE SCHILLER: Yes.
01:01:26If you want, let's do that.
01:01:27EYUNG LIM: Let me try that.
01:01:27JULIE SCHILLER: Yes, please.
01:01:28EYUNG LIM: [INAUDIBLE].
01:01:31So I think, long
story short, I was
01:01:33trying to share that I'm a
strong believer of inclusivity
01:01:38is not just a design or
technical implementation,
01:01:42but it is really a
cultural movement.
01:01:44So it has to be both
top-down as well as bottom-up
01:01:47to make it truly successful.
01:01:52So in my mind, for example,
in the Singapore government
01:01:54context, even at the
beginning of the year
01:01:57we should already have--
01:01:59in fact, that is
exactly what we--
01:02:00we have set up a
strategic direction
01:02:02of what is the particular
inclusivity target or standard
01:02:07that we want to meet so that the
whole organization is aligned
01:02:10to provide that kind of
digital service offering
01:02:14On the other hand, it
really cannot survive well
01:02:16if it's just based on the
top-down direction based
01:02:22on certain criteria when
we try to do the hiring.
01:02:26We also need to
make sure that we
01:02:27bring in the right people
with the right mindset
01:02:29with inclusivity even built
in as part of the personality,
01:02:33and because that is how
we really can grow up
01:02:36organically, be all those
inclusivity in order, service
01:02:39offering, and product.
01:02:40That's all I have.
01:02:42JULIE SCHILLER:
Thank you, Eyung.
01:02:44A great answer-- going
from both directions.
01:02:46And Xi, since you
mentioned this before when
01:02:48we were having the technical
[INAUDIBLE],, if you want also
01:02:49add your thoughts,
I'd love to hear them.
01:02:51XI LIU: Yeah, for sure.
01:02:53I think I totally
agree with you what
01:02:55Eyung was just talking about.
01:02:57So I just have a
little bit to end on,
01:02:58since this is definitely
a big thing for us
01:03:01when I was in a
bigger design team.
01:03:04So I think there are
often two aspects when we
01:03:06are trying to build up a team.
01:03:07And for one is the very obvious
characteristics around people's
01:03:12gender, ethnicity, and the
age, and the education,
01:03:17And then there's
also this other part
01:03:19where we talk about
people's perspectives
01:03:22and how everyone's
experience was shaped,
01:03:24because the most important
part for inclusivity,
01:03:28to me, is to cover as
many different angles,
01:03:32or different demographics,
or different use cases
01:03:35as much as possible.
01:03:36So having people coming from
a very different perspective
01:03:40can really help us to
build a great team.
01:03:43Of course, by the end of
the day the cultural part--
01:03:47the team culture, like
Eyung have mentioned--
01:03:50it's going to play a big role.
01:03:52When you have so many
different people coming in
01:03:54with different personalities,
how do you actually
01:03:58encourage everyone to
share their opinions
01:04:01without holdbacks?
01:04:02How do you actually--
to encourage everyone
01:04:04to collaborate coming from
such a different background
01:04:08can be very different.
01:04:09So it's also a big challenge
for the team leader or the team
01:04:13builder to put together
such a community
01:04:16to make everyone feel
comfortable to share.
01:04:20JULIE SCHILLER:
Love that point, Xi.
01:04:22And I also want to add
from my point of view,
01:04:25working in different
organizations,
01:04:27I think it's important to
talk about inclusion actively
01:04:30inside the team, not only making
it a culture but making it
01:04:33something that we're actively
evangelizing and promoting.
01:04:35And maybe to serve
to your point, Eyung,
01:04:37that it's really vital that
we're not just putting it
01:04:39on the table and leaving
it there, keeping in mind
01:04:42your organization's
often changing.
01:04:44So it's super crucial that
we're actually talking
01:04:47about this problem a lot.
01:04:48So Joy, did you have something
you wanted to share on that?
01:04:53JOY NG: I'd say I totally
agree with Eyung and Xi.
01:04:57So when you want to build
a community that cares
01:05:03you start off with
a group of people.
01:05:05But you're not
building from scratch.
01:05:07So don't think of
it like you have
01:05:09to build from scratch
if you are doing this
01:05:11and you really want to do this.
01:05:13Think of gathering people who
have the same mindset as you.
01:05:18That's one [INAUDIBLE].
01:05:19People who cares,
they form together.
01:05:22And then from there
you build on from there
01:05:24and become a movement.
01:05:26And then people who
also care that they
01:05:29heard that this group of
people are doing this stuff,
01:05:31they will join you.
01:05:33So therefore, you
create a movement.
01:05:35And then you start hiring
people who also care.
01:05:38And then this is
how you do grow up.
01:05:41Of course, it can
be top-down too.
01:05:42But you can't control
what your boss says.
01:05:44So from our effort we
can only grow from up.
01:05:49JULIE SCHILLER: I
like that point, Joy.
01:05:51And it also reminds
me of a question
01:05:52that Charmain asked
earlier in the session.
01:05:54Can you guys talk to us a bit
about-- it's a hard question.
01:05:57How do you suggest
getting companies
01:05:59to have buy-in for
inclusive design
01:06:02when it doesn't get you
straight to profits,
01:06:05or might mean your colleagues
have more work to do?
01:06:09So I'd love to
hear your thoughts
01:06:10about how you've successfully,
in your organizations,
01:06:14done that, and here or at
other places you've worked.
01:06:24XI LIU: I think some
products that I worked on--
01:06:27like, most of the companies
that I worked for really
01:06:29care about inclusive design.
01:06:32I think a part of the reason
was a lot of our users
01:06:35were customers of our
product was very diverse,
01:06:38and that there's no control over
who's going to be the target
01:06:42user of your product.
01:06:43For example, when I
was working for Alexa
01:06:46and one of my
products was launched
01:06:48in eight regions with
eight different languages
01:06:50at the same time--
01:06:52and so when things come to
you like a product like this,
01:06:55if you only have very
similar designers
01:06:58and if the team who's
building it coming from a very
01:07:02exclusive culture side, it's
actually very hard for us
01:07:06to understand what's going
on in different regions.
01:07:09Like when we are
advertising for the basics,
01:07:11the marketing message
we sent out in France
01:07:14is going to be so different
in US versus in Japan.
01:07:17But then when we have
a more diverse team
01:07:19or when our office has
more diverse people
01:07:23you can actually include
all of people's opinions
01:07:26and help you build
a better service.
01:07:28So I think this is--
01:07:31of course, this is a very
specific product issue
01:07:33where we do require a
very inclusive environment
01:07:37or diverse environment for
us to enable the product.
01:07:41But then I think it actually
apply to most of the products
01:07:44we use nowadays, because
the world is very connected.
01:07:48And you can just
anticipate your product
01:07:50is going to be [INAUDIBLE]
to one single demographic,
01:07:53but then to a more
broader audiences.
01:07:56So I think that can be where you
could actually [INAUDIBLE] use
01:08:00as examples or the
evidence to support
01:08:03your inclusive building.
01:08:08JOY NG: So from my perspective
is that you can't sell--
01:08:13if you have a leader that is
looking for profit and then you
01:08:15are selling a nonprofit making
idea to a leader who is looking
01:08:19for profit, you can't.
01:08:21You can't sell a
pen to someone who
01:08:23is looking for a highlighter.
01:08:25So you have to convince this
person that, hey, you are not
01:08:28just looking for profit.
01:08:29You are looking for
something else, as well.
01:08:31You're looking for,
maybe, reputation.
01:08:34When we do this the
reputation goes like that.
01:08:36Maybe you are looking for
to attract talent hiring.
01:08:40Good reputation will
bring in more talent.
01:08:42See, that's good
for the company.
01:08:44So you can't just go
with the angle of profit.
01:08:48You have to sell something else.
01:08:54EYUNG LIM: Allow me to
provide a more naughty answer.
01:08:59Two points to add.
01:09:00So first of all, I think if I'm
in that shoe what I would do
01:09:03is that I would try to
find a very big example--
01:09:05big and good example which is
about a large organization.
01:09:09But then, when you
work with them,
01:09:10essentially they also have
a quite high requirement
01:09:13in terms of the inclusivity
design and implementation.
01:09:17In the Singapore context it is
not a choice, but it is a must
01:09:21that when you work with
Singapore government
01:09:23you need to have all these kind
of WCAG, blah, blah, blah--
01:09:26all these kind of
requirement fulfilled.
01:09:29Then you use that to
[INAUDIBLE] the case
01:09:30that do you want to
really do business
01:09:33with this kind of
big organization?
01:09:35And if you do, then that is--
01:09:37you better do the same.
01:09:39Second version of
the naughty answer--
01:09:42it's really about, I also want
to fundamentally challenge
01:09:45the mindset of
inclusivity is expensive.
01:09:50It doesn't mean all
the time that in order
01:09:52to have a good
inclusivity design
01:09:56you really need to
spend very big bucks.
01:10:00I'm not saying this because
this is a Google event,
01:10:03but Google Lighthouse is a
very good starting point.
01:10:08So basically it is--
01:10:09there are a lot of
community tools out there
01:10:12which you just need a
little bit of effort
01:10:16to persuade-- maybe you just buy
a good coffee to your engineers
01:10:21to make them at
least use the tool
01:10:22and to run one round of
accessibility checks,
01:10:25so on and so forth.
01:10:26Then, immediately, if you
look at the recommendation
01:10:28to fix, in fact, a lot of
them, you'll be surprised.
01:10:31It doesn't take you a
high cost of 10 sprint
01:10:34just to fix some of the
very basic, or fundamental,
01:10:37or generic usability
or inclusivity issue.
01:10:41So again, back to Joy's
point, just try it.
01:10:44You'll be surprised.
01:10:47JULIE SCHILLER: Wow,
those are great ideas.
01:10:48I love the point
of thinking that
01:10:50accessibility and inclusive
design is always expensive,
01:10:54because I think you're right.
01:10:55There are so many great
options these days
01:10:57to get engaged and try it out
for, kind of, on the cheap.
01:11:00Also, one-- I think
one angle on this
01:11:02is that it's not
always about profit,
01:11:05because what you might be
doing by designing inclusively
01:11:09is actually expanding
your user base.
01:11:11So maybe you run checks for
people with vision impairments.
01:11:13But I wear glasses.
01:11:14That's a kind of
vision impairment.
01:11:16Many people have gradients
of the inclusions.
01:11:20And sometimes things that
might help one group of people,
01:11:23like wheelchair
users, might also
01:11:24benefit a whole
range of other people
01:11:26who just want increased
mobility to these things.
01:11:28So I think thinking
about that as expanding
01:11:30your audience is a really
great way to look at it.
01:11:34Our second-to-last question,
our penultimate question
01:11:38is about reusability.
01:11:40Eric and [? Ayu ?] you had
some really good points
01:11:42to ask about how
reusability works
01:11:45for designing for inclusion.
01:11:47How have you guys been able to
take some of the work you've
01:11:51done and use it other places?
01:11:52I know in some of your talks
you talked a bit about this,
01:11:54but would love to hear
these questions about using
01:11:59the work you've done in other
places to maximize its impact
01:12:03and increase its usability.
01:12:06EYUNG LIM: Allow me to give
maybe two concrete examples.
01:12:10Just imagine you have a CMS,
the content management system,
01:12:14which is essentially
a very common tech
01:12:18stack elements or tech tool
in many of the organizations.
01:12:22So what is a CMS?
01:12:23CMS basically allows you to
be able to set up once and use
01:12:27the same CMS
engine, but then you
01:12:29are able to spin off
multiple websites.
01:12:32And based on the
same engine, when
01:12:35you spin off multiple website--
01:12:37and you're going to
collect feedback.
01:12:39Then, based on the feedback you
collected, maybe some of you
01:12:42would tell you that, hey,
based on this website
01:12:46if you use this
particular font size--
01:12:48basically, I'm elderly.
01:12:51You are not inclusive enough.
01:12:52I cannot read it properly--
so on and so forth.
01:12:55So based on that
kind of feedback
01:12:58I'm going to take that
feedback and come and configure
01:13:01my CMS configuration so that
not just for this instance
01:13:05of the website, but for all the
future instances of the website
01:13:09all the particular issue
will be fixed and, in fact,
01:13:13immediately fixed, because
I'm controlling [INAUDIBLE]
01:13:16at a tech stack layer.
01:13:18So there is just one very basic
example of what I meant by--
01:13:22if you really need
to do designer skill,
01:13:24then one option is you want to
control at a tech stack layer.
01:13:29Tech stack can also meant to
refer those tech tool that
01:13:34is used for automated
scanning, which
01:13:37means that in-- back
to the same example,
01:13:40this is for CMS by itself.
01:13:41Of course, you can configure
the CMS differently
01:13:43to really strengthen
the inclusivity.
01:13:46But there could be another
series of tech stacks
01:13:49which allows you to run
automated scanning, automated
01:13:52tests, which is to scan
what is the out of the box
01:13:56accessibility in the automated
manner of this CMS product?
01:14:02So there is also another
[INAUDIBLE] of opportunity
01:14:05that many organizations
are investing
01:14:08in that kind of automated
scanning kind of tech
01:14:12So I hope I provide two
different perspectives.
01:14:16JULIE SCHILLER: Thanks, Eyung.
01:14:17Those are good examples.
01:14:21Do you ladies have anything to
add about that or reusability?
01:14:24Otherwise we can get
to our last question.
01:14:26I'd love to hear you, though.
01:14:27XI LIU: I think I just
have a small thing to add.
01:14:30To me, it's like when you are
fishing and you catch a fish
01:14:34or you learn how to fish.
01:14:36So to me the reuseful
part is actually,
01:14:38you always keep everything
on top of your mind.
01:14:41Like, if my design or my
services were used by some,
01:14:47let's say, people had visual
impairing or hearing impairing,
01:14:52or coming from somewhere that
has [INAUDIBLE] resources,
01:14:57the design I did might
not be able to be reused.
01:15:00But then the
learning experience,
01:15:02and next time when I am
building a new service,
01:15:06these are going to
be on top of my mind.
01:15:08So I think that that's what
we can gain the maximum from--
01:15:12learning how to build
the inclusive design,
01:15:14and because we
will always trying
01:15:16to expand our vision towards
every single design or product.
01:15:20And then next time we can
actually cover or include
01:15:23more people or demographics.
01:15:30JULIE SCHILLER: Thanks, Xi.
01:15:33Let's move to our last topic.
01:15:34We've been talking
for over an hour now.
01:15:36I'm really grateful for
everyone's thoughts.
01:15:38I don't want to use
too much of your time.
01:15:40But the last question
I want to address--
01:15:43it started out from
Xi's talk, but I
01:15:45think we could all answer
it in our own ways.
01:15:47So the question was,
when user's needs
01:15:49are taboo how did
you conduct research
01:15:53to try to understand and
provide the project the insights
01:15:58Maybe Xi, you want to
get started on that one,
01:16:00we'd love to hear
your perspective.
01:16:02This is my daily job.
01:16:04So I guess I will just
share a little bit more.
01:16:06It is a little bit
more challenging
01:16:08when you are designing for
a service or something that
01:16:13are more stigmatized or only
are used by some limited people.
01:16:17And so the research
part is, I think--
01:16:22coming from a designs
experience, what we can do
01:16:26is, we trying to be
inclusive as much as possible
01:16:30when we are conducting
our research.
01:16:32So for example, the basics--
01:16:34how do you ask questions?
01:16:35When you ask people's
gender, do you
01:16:37ask are you female or
male or are you ask
01:16:40what do you identify
yourself as?
01:16:43Or how accessible your
research methods is--
01:16:47and when you are reaching out
to people, is it only in person?
01:16:50Is it by a video call?
01:16:52For people who have trouble
accessing the services,
01:16:55how do you provide alternatives?
01:16:57So there are definitely
more basic techniques
01:17:01that we should be
more mindful of.
01:17:03And then the most important
part, I think, is,
01:17:06how do you ask questions with
your full empathy and with--
01:17:10be very mindful of the--
01:17:14you actually
understand-- basically,
01:17:16showing your empathy that you
do understand them in the way
01:17:20that they should be
comfortable to share.
01:17:22And also, give them
options that if you
01:17:25don't feel comfortable
to talk about
01:17:26and you don't have to
answer my questions.
01:17:29So it's definitely-- compared to
you are just going out to have
01:17:34a random chat with other people,
designing for more stigmatized
01:17:38topics is a little bit--
01:17:41it just requires us to have
more higher empathy, and also
01:17:45inclusive mindset.
01:17:49JULIE SCHILLER: Great tip, Xi.
01:17:51I know you've worked a lot
in this space at [INAUDIBLE]..
01:17:53Do you have any advice about
how to conduct research
01:17:57when the user need might be
hard for the user to talk about?
01:18:09JOY NG: So the only closest
topic that I researched on
01:18:12was a taboo topic, it
was on music piracy.
01:18:19JULIE SCHILLER: I'm
interested to hear your tips.
01:18:22JOY NG: So music piracy--
01:18:24so how did I conduct research
to try to understand the topic?
01:18:27A lot of time, as long as it's--
01:18:31As long as they are
anonymous they usually
01:18:35will speak the truth
as much as possible.
01:18:40And it's not just
confidentiality.
01:18:42It has to be anonymous.
01:18:43And because that is to protect
the researcher, as well.
01:18:47It has to be double blind.
01:18:48I don't know who they are.
01:18:49They don't know-- I mean,
they have to know who I am.
01:18:52But after that I
also have to ensure
01:18:55that their identifier are kept
separately and then discarded.
01:18:59If not-- if the law would
have caught up to me then
01:19:02I also have to provide the
details of their identity.
01:19:06And then I'll be in trouble.
01:19:07It's not ethical that we--
01:19:09so this is more of
the ethical issues.
01:19:13JULIE SCHILLER: Such a nice
point, bringing in the--
01:19:15even though sometimes it's
possible with our data,
01:19:18it doesn't mean it's
the right thing to do.
01:19:20I think especially in these
issues, it feels very personal.
01:19:23And I think this question
of also getting it--
01:19:26giving people
accountability, that you're
01:19:28going to take their answers
and do something about it--
01:19:30I feel like that's been
helpful in my 15-so years
01:19:33as a researcher, as well
as helping them understand
01:19:36that their feedback will help
others in similar situations,
01:19:40that some people are willing
to put themselves out
01:19:43a little further if
they know that it's
01:19:45a value for other people
that [INAUDIBLE] identify
01:19:48Those are all really great tips.
01:19:51XI LIU: I have to echo
that point, actually,
01:19:53because I think a lot of
topics are taboo or stigmatized
01:19:57is because no one is
talking about them.
01:20:00So once you actually
share feedback and, yes,
01:20:03take it into a
[INAUDIBLE] and be like,
01:20:05we will make some--
we will improve it
01:20:08and we will take your feedback
and design a better service,
01:20:11and the more people actually
feel more comfortable to share.
01:20:17JULIE SCHILLER: Great point.
01:20:20OK, you guys, this has
been an amazing chat.
01:20:23I want to say a huge
thank you to everybody
01:20:26who's given a talk tonight.
01:20:28It's been amazing to get to hear
from you and learn from you.
01:20:31To everybody who's dialed in
and given amazing questions,
01:20:34a really big thank you.
01:20:36We know this is
almost dinnertime.
01:20:38And we want to
make sure that this
01:20:39is a really valuable
experience for you.
01:20:42If you have any last
suggestions about what
01:20:44you want to learn about from
other UX masters, please let us
01:20:48know so it'll help us
steer our plans for 2021.
01:20:52I also want to acknowledge this
has been a year of inclusion,
01:20:56a lot of consciousness raising
around the world about how
01:20:59we can be more involved
and bring our whole selves
01:21:02to these problems.
01:21:04So I want to put out a
challenge to all of us
01:21:05as a community to find those
opportunities in our own work,
01:21:09whether you work in any part
of the industries that are--
01:21:15It's an important
and challenging time.
01:21:18And maybe take even a
minute after this talk
01:21:20to set a goal for yourself
about how, for 2021, you'd
01:21:23like to broaden the
scope and make sure
01:21:27that more people have
seats at the table.
01:21:30That's my closing
thought for you guys.
01:21:31The last thing I want
to say is a huge shout
01:21:34out to the Google team.
01:21:35You guys are amazing.
01:21:37Thank you for a wonderful
year of UX evenings.
01:21:40This is not easy
to put together.
01:21:42And we're really grateful.
01:21:44So we're really looking forward
to seeing all of you next year,
01:21:50Hope everyone has a safe, happy
new year and happy holidays.
01:21:59JOY NG: Thank you.
01:22:01EYUNG LIM: Thank you.
