00:03SPEAKER 1: With us this
morning we have Bree Groff.
00:06I'm very excited
to have her here.
00:08She's coming to us
from SYPartners.
00:12And she has been focused on
transformation, innovation,
00:18organization design
for the last decade,
00:21working with companies like
Calvin Klein, Adobe, Google,
00:26Dropbox, Capital One, Etsy,
some companies that you
00:30know, as a transformation
expert, really
00:34helping them to change.
00:36And previous to that she was the
CEO at Noble Collective, also
00:40another organizational
design consultancy.
00:44She's got a background in
service design, psychology
00:48research, and even
some stage acting.
00:51So with that, I'd like to
ask you all to welcome, Bree.
01:08BREE GROFF: Correct.
01:11I'm so happy to be
here with you all.
01:14Thank you for the introduction.
01:16So I am here today to talk
about managing grief and loss
01:22in organizational change.
01:24And I'm sure grief
is exactly what you
01:25want to be talking about
at 9:00 AM on a Wednesday.
01:29That's why there's a party hat.
01:32It's going to be real festive.
01:34The question for us all today
is, what makes change hard?
01:41What makes new
ways of working so
01:43easy and joyful
to adapt for some
01:47and very painful and
slow to adapt for others?
01:53What is it that makes people
resist change and seize up?
01:57What allows them
to engage with it?
02:00And then how can we,
as change agents,
02:05help that move a little
faster and more joyfully
02:09and more productively?
02:11So yes, I am a
transformation expert.
02:15Expert just sounds so, mm.
02:16But I've done a lot of
transformation work.
02:19SYPartners works with leaders to
imagine and then spark and then
02:24sustain transformation.
02:26And the beautiful part
of my job everyday
02:29is getting to imagine
these new futures
02:32with all sorts of
innovation and possibility
02:35and new ways of working.
02:37The hard part is, then, when
we try and make that a reality.
02:43The changing of mindsets and
behaviors on a daily basis
02:47is the difference between
values on a company wall
02:50and actually living them.
02:53And perhaps you have
seen the discrepancy
02:55in what you can imagine and
what you can make happen.
03:01So before we dive in to the
grief and loss and party hats,
03:07we have an experiment to run.
03:12You have near you an envelope.
03:15You can open it now.
03:18This is our Oprah moment.
03:23It's going to be
really disappointing.
03:25There's not even wine in there.
03:29This is the worst
part of a wine bottle.
03:35Can I borrow this from you?
03:38In it, you should have two
corks, one natural cork,
03:44What I'd like you to do is based
on your experience holding them
03:47now, anything you
know about wine corks,
03:51decide which is the
better stopper for wine.
03:54No wrong answers here.
03:57Everyone have a gut reaction?
04:01Now, I'd like you to
turn to a neighbor
04:03or to introduce
yourselves and then make
04:07the case for which is better.
04:08We will take just about one
minute, two minutes for this.
04:12[INDISTINCT CHATTER]
04:38All right, hot debate.
04:42I'd love to take a few
hands, preferably hands that
04:46are attached to bodies that
are kind of close to me
04:48so I can give you this.
04:55AUDIENCE: So at first,
I was super excited
04:57about the synthetic cork.
04:58And then as [INAUDIBLE] and I--
05:02we're name twins--
we were talking,
05:05I realized the
environmental impact
05:06of having a
synthetic cork is not
05:08going to be better than the
convenience of not having
05:12the cork fall apart.
05:14And so we both decided the
natural is better still.
05:18BREE GROFF: Mm-hmm, thank you.
05:24AUDIENCE: I figure, well, it
felt like a trick question.
05:27BREE GROFF: It's not.
05:29AUDIENCE: But it
seemed like synthetic
05:31might be better for the wine.
05:33So there was a conversation
about environment
05:35versus the wine, but synthetic
being better for the wine
05:39and why create something
synthetic if it's not--
05:43It just seems super popular.
05:44So it's gotta have
some benefits.
05:46BREE GROFF: It was designed.
05:47AUDIENCE: It was designed, yeah.
05:49BREE GROFF: Mm-hmm Great.
05:53AUDIENCE: So both sides,
from us, on the one hand,
05:56for me, the natural cork,
it's the experience.
06:00AUDIENCE: It is the
whole experience
06:02and thousands and thousands of
years of experience with wine.
06:05On the other hand, the same kind
of idea, that it's designed.
06:12It's scientifically better.
06:13It does the job better.
06:15And from an
environmental standpoint,
06:17cork trees are dying also.
06:19So that's another
part of the story.
06:22AUDIENCE: Bring
back the screw top.
06:24BREE GROFF: Screw
top, pretend it
06:26doesn't exist for the
sake of this experiment.
06:33So I'm no sommelier.
06:34Are there any
sommeliers in here?
06:38If you were, you'll
probably tell me
06:39I'm all wrong about this.
06:40But I have been reading
up on my wine course.
06:43And legend has it that
17th-century monk Dom
06:46Perignon first used natural
cork as a stopper for wine.
06:51And it's dominated
the industry since.
06:55It's a beautiful,
functional solution.
06:58But has anyone in here
experienced cork taint before?
07:03It happens in between
1% and 13% of bottles,
07:07depending on the kind of cork.
07:08And it'll ruin your bottle
of wine, the Russian roulette
07:15So what does any
industry do when
07:17faced with a sizable
problem for their industry?
07:21They throw a bunch of money
into research and development.
07:26thank you for letting--
07:27this synthetic cork.
07:30It is both cheaper and not
susceptible to cork taint.
07:36It is the newer technology.
07:42So I want you to imagine
that you are a winemaker
07:44and decide which you would
use in your own bottles.
07:48You can consider that this
would make your CFO very happy,
07:52that this one doesn't have
the risk of people opening
07:55your bottle and be
like, oh, who made this?
07:59The natural cork, you
may be considering
08:00what's the value of your
customers' tactile experience?
08:04Wine is an industry of
history and tradition,
08:06and what is that worth?
08:08I promise there's no right
or wrong answers here.
08:12I'd like you to, on
the count of three,
08:15hold up the wine cork that
you would use in your bottles.
08:21Everyone have theirs?
08:23I didn't even have to count.
08:29And I see natural, natural,
synthetic, synthetic, natural,
08:35natural, synthetic,
synthetic, a whole mix.
08:38You can put your hands down.
08:40And that is the point
of it, that there
08:42are as many attitudes
towards change
08:45as there are people
in your organizations.
08:50I've done this experiment dozens
of times all over the world.
08:55And every time
there's a healthy mix.
08:59The experiment is meant to
demonstrate that even when
09:01change makes sense for all
the reasons in the world, why
09:06when you have a newer
technology in your hand, still
09:10there is beauty and value
and function in what you
09:17Now, this is a picture
of a jar, of course,
09:19that I keep with my husband.
09:21We write on them for special
occasions and anniversaries.
09:25And I am a change
junkie to the extreme.
09:28I love the newer technology.
09:30And yet if somebody
told me that I
09:32had to switch all of these
out for synthetic corks,
09:35it would feel so, ugh--
09:40There is such beauty here.
09:44Now, in your roles
as change agents,
09:47as synthetic cork
purveyors, you'll
09:50meet that kind of let down,
that tension that, ooh,
09:54but I just kind of like how
it was before as resistance.
10:01That resistance, at its best,
just slows the pace of change.
10:05And sometimes that's fine.
10:07Resistance at its worst,
though, can decimate a company
10:10and your career along with it.
10:11And I say that because
it has happened before,
10:13and it's almost happened to me.
10:22The key I have found,
over all the years
10:25of trying to change things
and people and industries,
10:31the key is understanding
what people are resisting.
10:34And I learned that
it's actually people
10:36are not resisting change, that
people are resisting loss.
10:44There's an old saying that the
only people who crave change
10:48are wet babies, right?
10:50Only if you're really
uncomfortable--
10:52get me out of here--
10:55And what I've
found is for better
10:57or for worse, the leaders,
the change agents,
11:01in organizations
they think of change
11:04as exciting, as fresh, as new,
as bringing in the future.
11:10But for the people
on the ground,
11:12the people who
are being changed,
11:15it does not feel exciting.
11:17The people who are told you
must sign up for this Sprint,
11:20that you must operate
in this new way, that
11:23feels specifically
like something
11:25is being taken away from them.
11:29So what are those things?
11:32I've done all sorts
of mapping over
11:34my time working
with organizations
11:36of what are the
different kinds of loss
11:38that people are
experiencing, with the hopes
11:41that if I could
just map them out,
11:43I might be able to address them.
11:46And that's what this
is, six kinds of loss.
11:51The first, a loss
of control, and this
11:54is usually the first
one that people think
11:56of when they think of change.
12:00Now, if people are not
invited into designing
12:02the future of their
organizations,
12:05change is something
that's happening to them.
12:09And even if it's a good change,
still, that lack of control
12:13can be a much more negative
and salient emotion.
12:18Now, I'll tell you a story about
the worst day of my career.
12:24It was about 10 years ago.
12:26I was the founder and head
of an innovation department
12:31And I was real bright-eyed
and bushy-tailed.
12:35I, along with our
dean of faculty,
12:37had designed this month-long--
12:39we were going to call it a J
term, this month-long program
12:42in the month of
January, where we
12:44were going to tell all the
teachers that they couldn't
12:49And instead we were going to
plan an innovation curriculum,
12:54that every one was going
to do for that month.
12:58And we were so excited about it.
13:00This was also in the rise of
design thinking, we're like,
13:04yes, we need it in this school.
13:05This is exactly what we need.
13:07So I prepared my presentation.
13:08I got up in front of
all of the teachers
13:11to say this is what we
are going to be doing.
13:14You don't have to plan
anything for January.
13:18And can I tell you how excited
they were to hear this?
13:23They were zero excited.
13:26Not even an inch of excitement.
13:28And all of the faces in
the crowd looked like this.
13:35I went to my car and
cried afterwards.
13:39And it was a bad day.
13:41And then I signed
up for grad school
13:43in organizational
learning and change
13:44because I was like, by god,
I got to get better at this.
13:48And what I learned
from that experience
13:50is that the idea I
still believe in.
13:53It was the fact that we
were taking all control
13:56from people who were very
used to having control.
13:59That really got us in trouble.
14:04Next, there's a
lot of loss here.
14:05So we're going to get like
a bit depressed for a bit.
14:08We'll bring it back
around by the end.
14:11Loss of pride-- now,
hopefully people
14:15within your organizations,
your colleagues and teammates
14:17and team members,
hopefully they feel a sense
14:21of pride for the work
that they've done,
14:23for the organization that
they built. And this is
14:25an excellent thing, of course.
14:30But sometimes leaders
and change agents
14:32can make the mistake of
championing the future
14:38at the expense of the past.
14:39It sounds like, oh,
this is why it's better.
14:41And here's all the data, and
all the cool kids are doing it.
14:44So we're going to do this
and not that anymore.
14:50We were working with a client,
where the client had us
14:57in for a project kick off.
15:01She had in both the
former head of design
15:03and the incoming
head of design there.
15:06We were going to be
working with this function
15:08because it was in a tricky spot.
15:11Now, our client opened
with, oh, we are so glad
15:14you are here because this
function is a disaster.
15:21And we looked at the former
head, the outgoing head, who's
15:24being relocated or
something, and it was grief.
15:33And it was a hit to their pride.
15:36Now, that could have been just a
bad day at the office for them.
15:41But what we learned is that
that sentiment had spread
15:44to the department already.
15:46That for us to work
with an organization
15:48and say, oh, here's all the
things you're capable of,
15:51when they are telling
themselves the message
15:53that we are dysfunctional,
we are not valued,
15:56and now we need help, that
people aren't in the place
16:00to celebrate and get
excited about their futures
16:03when they feel like their
pride has just taken a U-turn.
16:08So the first thing we did is
we just found all the things
16:11that they did that were great
because by definition, they
16:18So they were doing
something right--
16:22Next, loss of narrative--
16:25this is the stories that we
tell at the Thanksgiving dinner
16:29table when our aunt asks us,
oh, what do you do for a living?
16:31I say, oh, I work here, and
we do this, and here's why.
16:35We take pride in those
stories that we tell.
16:39And sometimes
change can make you
16:41change that story on a dime.
16:46We were working with
a VP of marketing
16:49in an organization that
was moving from print
16:52to digital advertising.
16:55And she could see the
writing on the wall,
16:58that this is everything
and its mother
17:00is going digital these days.
17:02But she was the one
who had advocated
17:06to build out her print team.
17:08She'd hired all these people.
17:10They were her friends.
17:11She had told everyone
that print was
17:12going to be king for
the foreseeable future.
17:14And then she was being
asked to change that story,
17:19fire her team, and start talking
about all things digital, which
17:24wasn't her expertise,
which wasn't her love.
17:29She had to change her own party
line just to keep her job.
17:35I know, more sad stories.
17:36I've got a few more.
17:39Loss of time-- now, I am
in the lucky position,
17:43that I can give lots of
advice to lots of leaders.
17:45And the bit of
advice that they like
17:47the least is when we say for any
new change, new ways of working
17:54that you're introducing
into the organization,
17:56it's going to take
some body of work
17:58and time and new competencies.
18:00Now, you need to take that
same amount of time and effort
18:04off of people's plates
from someplace else.
18:08And normally we're
told, well, that
18:10sounds nice for someone
else, but that's
18:11not how we do things here.
18:13That sounds impossible.
18:15But of course, if
you don't do that,
18:17if you don't take that off of
people's plates, what you're
18:20asking people to do is choose
between some new change,
18:24new ways of working and
their friends, their family,
18:30It doesn't usually compete
with their day job.
18:33People still do their day jobs.
18:35It's just what sort
of overtime you're
18:36putting in to try and keep
up with the organization.
18:42Another example of a client
we were working with,
18:45this brilliant woman who
was promoted at the time we
18:49were working with her, this
big new strategic role.
18:52And she was excited.
18:54We were so excited for her.
18:57Until she called and
said, Bree, there's
18:59some fine print on this job.
19:02Not only am I being offered
this big strategic position,
19:05but also could I please do
everything I was doing before
19:10for the foreseeable future.
19:13And so what did she do?
19:15She worked these two full-time
jobs until the CEO finally
19:19realized that the
last thing you want
19:22is someone in your big
new strategic position who
19:26is sleep deprived,
miserable, and wants to quit.
19:29So they pulled back a bit.
19:37Loss of confidence--
another experiment,
19:39raise your hand if
100% of the time at
19:42work you know what you're doing?
19:49You don't work near innovation
or anything, do you?
20:02Anyone 50% or below?
20:07For those 50% and blow people,
are you just wired like that?
20:13You can just give me-- yes.
20:14I'm getting some thumbs
up and some head nods.
20:17So some people just
like operating that way.
20:20It just gives them joy.
20:24But for the people
who don't love
20:26operating that way, that some
kind of organizational change,
20:30new ways of working are making
it so that they are forced to
20:34not really know what
they're doing half the time.
20:38This is what this looks like.
20:41They're at their desks
being like, clackety-clack,
20:44sending a meeting
invite, sending an email.
20:46This looks like work, right?
20:49Half their week just not really
knowing if what they're doing
20:53is right or good or
meeting the expectations
20:56of any sort of new way of
working that's coming in.
21:01That almost, especially an
innovation by definition,
21:05you're asking
people to step away
21:09from executing
based on expertise
21:12and embrace something
new, something fresh,
21:15something different.
21:17And if you work
in an organization
21:19that results and
performance and OKR driven,
21:23well, then, of course,
people are going to resist.
21:25No one likes being
bad at their jobs.
21:29And if adopting some
new way of working means
21:33that they can't meet some
goals, feel confident and good
21:37about themselves, then you
get a lot of that kind of look
21:46Last, the loss of familiarity--
now, for all of history,
21:52humans have spent time trying
to predict the migration
21:56patterns of buffalo,
surely, who's
21:58going to win at the
Super Bowl, if it's going
21:59to be cloudy in Boulder today.
22:01I got that one wrong.
22:03It's just safe and
lovely and comforting
22:07to be able to
predict your future.
22:09It feels-- it feels like
you're not vulnerable.
22:19And people don't like
vulnerability, as a rule.
22:25There was another
client that we were
22:27working with right after they
had gone through a merger.
22:32And the CEO had said,
morale is awful,
22:38and I don't understand why.
22:40People were excited about the
merger, that it was strategic,
22:43and we got really
great feedback.
22:44And now six months in,
people are miserable.
22:51So we went around and
talked to a bunch of people
22:53and found out that the change,
the specific change was good.
22:57But the transition,
the transformation,
22:59was handled so poorly that
six months in, people just
23:03couldn't recognize their
work or their roles.
23:07I think this is my job.
23:09It may be somebody else's job.
23:11They didn't know if they had
job security they didn't know
23:13the future of the organization.
23:16And people were kind of
giving up hope, looking
23:20for greener
pastures, where there
23:21might be some more familiarity.
23:26So there we have our six.
23:27Everyone properly down?
23:31Done my job, talking
about loss and grief.
23:35So the question is, what do
you do about these, of course?
23:40The first is a mindset,
that we, as change agents,
23:46get it firmly in our
heads to approach change
23:49with a degree of authenticity
and vulnerability
23:53and respect for this
loss, that we've
23:57seen some really bad leadership
behaviors, all of which
24:01So there's really just not
a judgment here, empathy.
24:05One is to explain the new change
and all the great new things.
24:10And when people
don't like it, you
24:11say it again and
louder or in an email.
24:15Maybe then it'll work.
24:17Or it's to talk about this new
change, new ways of working,
24:23and here's why it's wonderful.
24:24We went to the
spring conference,
24:25and here's why everything that
we need to take back and start
24:30But just maybe not
take any questions
24:32and see if you
can make it happen
24:33without talking to
people, which just
24:36seems so much easier, right?
24:37It's people that always
get in the way, I find.
24:41Or finally, it's just sometimes,
especially for leaders, to say,
24:49We pay these people, right?
24:51It's their job to
just get on with it
24:53and do the thing
that we're trying
24:55to do as an organization.
24:57[INAUDIBLE] that works.
25:01Now, that may be true.
25:02It just doesn't
work, is the problem.
25:07Now, you can, of course, make
change happen in an instant.
25:11Leaders do it all the time.
25:13In life, change is like a
birth, a death, a marriage.
25:17These things happen
in an instant.
25:19Or for those of you who have
given birth, a little longer
25:23But you write a time down.
25:28Transition, transformation,
that is a process.
25:33That's where the magic is.
25:35And in fact, it's not one step.
25:43A version of this,
first developed
25:44by William Bridges in the
1980s, still holds true.
25:51The first step is an
ending, coming to terms
25:56with what will no longer be.
25:59The second is the adjustment
period, figuring out
26:03it's no longer the old thing
but not quite the new thing.
26:06And only the third is
the really new beginning.
26:10Now, can anyone guess where
most leaders want to start?
26:15Yeah, the part with the
wine and the party hats,
26:18where you get to feel
like a bad-ass leader,
26:21shepherding your
people to the future.
26:24Now, that is brilliant.
26:26But it's just not
where most people
26:28are when they're starting.
26:31And in fact, most
leaders actually, they
26:34went through this process.
26:35They just did it
earlier and privately
26:38and in some boardrooms with
their executive leadership
26:42They've already gotten
themselves there,
26:45and it's really easy to
forget that other people need
26:50the permission and the
support in getting there too.
26:55First thing is begin where
people are beginning.
26:58You begin with the ending.
27:00And this looks like honoring,
memorializing, making tribute
27:05to all of the work that
has gotten you to today.
27:11For example, that VP of
marketing that I mentioned
27:14moving from print to
digital advertising,
27:16she invested in framing images
from their favorite print
27:20campaigns around the office.
27:22So that even if she was
moving on to something new,
27:25they could still
look around and feel
27:26pride in what they had done.
27:28And it was deserved.
27:33The one company that we
worked with it was merging,
27:37one of the companies
was losing their name
27:40and adopting the
other one's name.
27:42They invested-- and
actually I think
27:44it was, like, $29.99-- but in
naming a star after the company
27:50whose name they were losing.
27:52I think you can do this on
the internet really easily
27:57The idea was that somewhere
in the universe, our work,
28:01our identity lives on.
28:05Oh, another example, Ben
& Jerry's has a graveyard
28:11for all the flavors
they no longer produce.
28:15AUDIENCE: I just
saw it recently.
28:16BREE GROFF: You just
saw it recently.
28:17Yeah, I think there's a
physical one and a digital one.
28:22And so for the, like, bubble
gum, salted-caramel Tabasco
28:26flavor that just didn't fly off
the shelves like they thought,
28:29it's a place to
say, we did this.
28:32It was brilliantly awful.
28:36And we can say that we were
there, that our work didn't
28:40disappear, that it got us here.
28:47And the second thing
to do is adjustment.
28:49And this is the part that
we've spent the last 30
28:52minutes talking about.
28:53The adjustment period,
really the best thing
28:56that you can do as change
agents is just to see the loss
29:01and acknowledge it, that
the very worst kind of loss
29:05there is, is the loss
that isn't seen, that you
29:09have to go through alone.
29:11And so what this
sounds like is, I
29:13know this is a new
competency for you.
29:16We'll get there together.
29:18So we find some time, and
I'll help coach you on it.
29:22Or I know it feels
like we don't have
29:23a lot of control
in the situation
29:25because we have to do this.
29:26But actually, maybe we could
get there going this route
29:30or this route or this route.
29:31Which of those choices
sounds best to you?
29:38Or it's, I know the
future's a little fuzzy.
29:41It's fuzzy for me, too.
29:43But I do believe that we
can get there together.
29:45And here's one thing that's
going to remain the same.
29:49That's just to see
people through it.
29:52And then once you get
there, the new beginning,
29:56people rarely need our
help at this point.
30:00If you've done the
first two steps right,
30:02the third takes care of itself.
30:03People are ready to celebrate.
30:05Now, we've been
in grief and loss.
30:08You can't stay there forever.
30:12So those are our three.
30:15You should all still have your
favorite wine cork with you.
30:21If you have yours, hold it up
again, which one you prefer.
30:26So you can do a few
things with this.
30:28One is you can ask people--
it's just a great icebreaker--
30:34hey, which cork did you choose?
30:38AUDIENCE: The natural one.
30:39BREE GROFF: Yeah, great.
30:40Oh, it's so great to meet you.
30:41It's a good
conversation starter.
30:43I'm sure you all know
each other by now.
30:46Also, just find a
little home for it.
30:49Like, stuff it in
a drawer somewhere
30:51that you come across
every few months
30:54and let it be a reminder
to begin with an ending,
30:58no matter which cork it
was, synthetic or natural.
31:00It doesn't matter,
a reminder that
31:04to move on to something
new, you first
31:08have to let go of something
that once had value
31:11to you, that in organizations,
as you start to shed your skin
31:17to make room for growth, to
also realize that that was once
31:21your skin that
once protected you.
31:27And for a change
agent who can be there
31:30with people through
that loss and the grief
31:33and all the feelings
of discomfort,
31:36if you can be there with
people through that,
31:39they will be there with you
through the celebration.
31:59I'll tell you if I don't
know the answer to something.
32:03AUDIENCE: So my
organization just
32:06went through a shift and change.
32:10And we lost a few people,
some people that were actually
32:1418, 20 years in the company.
32:18AUDIENCE: And, of course, it
was hard because I actually
32:22knew some of these people.
32:23I've worked with them
for at least 15 years.
32:26And the interesting
thing is, though, you
32:28talk about adjusting and loss.
32:34And what's strange is that--
and I haven't figured out why,
32:40the VP themselves, they
don't recognize the people
32:43that were actually let go.
32:44It's like this
whole silent thing.
32:47And I'm trying to figure
out why that happens?
32:50Why isn't that
addressed and told that,
32:54hey, so-and-so actually
provided a service
32:57for this amount
of time, and then
32:59we unfortunately
had to let them go.
33:02AUDIENCE: What are your
experiences with that?
33:04BREE GROFF: It's
such a good question.
33:06And it's actually one
that I think about a lot
33:08because I also have
been in those companies.
33:13We used-- colleagues
and I used to call it
33:15people being vaporized because
it's kind of what it felt like.
33:18You showed up one day and
you're like, where's Joe?
33:22Like, oh, he got
sucked in the ether.
33:25The literal answer-- I
have a literal and then
33:27a philosophical answer
to your question.
33:29The literal answer, I have
been told, because I've
33:31inquired about this many times,
is that from an HR perspective,
33:35people want to respect--
33:37HR wants to respect
people's privacy
33:39and to not talk
about it, do a thing.
33:43If people want to just exit
silently, that they feel
33:47like it should be their choice.
33:51Philosophically,
I'm so with you.
33:55And I think it's an opportunity
for leaders or HR to talk with
34:03the individuals who are being
laid off or let go to say,
34:07we still want to celebrate
you, that even through endings,
34:11there can still be gratitude,
that there can be joy,
34:19that there can be
hugs, that it doesn't--
34:21there's so much shame often
around layoffs and leaving.
34:26And it doesn't have to
be that way, really.
34:29And I actually feel
lack of a better word
34:33for it-- maybe it's a
euphemism, but I kind of
34:36like it-- is just graduating.
34:38Now, it may not feel like
that if you're being told
34:40that you're being laid off.
34:42But for someone who's choosing
to leave an organization,
34:46in that case, sometimes it
feels a little like, oh,
34:49what, were they miserable?
34:51Did they hate the company?
34:54Sometimes people just graduate.
34:56They just say that I have
learned what I need to learn.
34:59I'm on to a new adventure.
35:02And we can celebrate
people for that too.
35:05And so I think there is huge
opportunity, because people
35:08to seize up around these kinds
of things, to be able to say,
35:13we're laying off a few people.
35:16Normally, employees, it's,
like, we're all adults.
35:18We can handle the truth.
35:19And it feels sometimes
like we're not
35:20always trusted as such.
35:23Here's why we made
these decisions.
35:25And-- and these people were
brilliant for 20 years.
35:29Let's talk about all the amazing
things that they had done
35:32and thank them for being there.
35:38AUDIENCE: Can you name another
example of a large organization
35:42that did post M&A
really well and what
35:46are the things they did right?
35:50I can share an anonymized client
example, if that's all right.
35:56One of the clients
that we worked
35:58with, they had
themselves a bit of
36:03a bachelor/bachelorette party.
36:06We were working with them
up until the formal merger
36:14And it is a little bit like
a marriage, a merger, right?
36:18Like, you have to figure out
which way you load the toilet
36:21paper and if we're going to
like each other's in-laws
36:24and things like that.
36:27And so that inspired
the, well, what
36:29if we had individual parties
to celebrate our younger years,
36:35our wild years of independence?
36:38So each organization
had that for themselves,
36:42where they told stories
about their past.
36:44They put together videos.
36:47It was just-- it acknowledged
the ending of an era,
36:51just like a
bachelor/bachelorette party
36:53would so that they were
ready, that they had already
36:59honored the so many years,
in this case, decades,
37:10AUDIENCE: Hey, Bree.
37:11BREE GROFF: Hi, Richard.
37:12AUDIENCE: Can you
put this framework
37:15in the context of either
digital transformation
37:19or, as I know we've all
experienced this is constant
37:23now change going on?
37:24So this is kind of
a one-off thing.
37:26But if you project
out a few years,
37:29this is going to be
a constant thing.
37:31AUDIENCE: What happens when?
37:32BREE GROFF: You do
this constantly.
37:35Yeah, it's such a good
question because it's true.
37:39This is a simplified
version of the merger,
37:44ending, adjustment,
beginning, that
37:47the real-life digital
transformation, where
37:50these things are happening
all the time, that version
37:53looks like cycling,
cycling, cycling through.
37:58One current client,
actually, they
38:00have this amazing practice.
38:03They have a celebration
of death regularly,
38:07and it's for all of
the projects that
38:10have died, for all of
the ways of working
38:13that they're leaving behind.
38:14And they make it a celebration,
almost like Day of the Dead,
38:18where they talk
about those things.
38:25And they move on
to something new.
38:26And they do this regularly
because this organization
38:29is so quickly moving, more
than any other that I've
38:32worked with, that they needed a
mechanism to be able to handle
38:38So there are
rituals that you can
38:40put in place, like these
sort of death festivals.
38:44You have to have that kind
of sense of humor, I think.
38:47So you can brand it differently.
38:50But you're right, though.
38:51And individuals will go through
this process differently.
38:54Departments will go through
this process differently.
38:58And sometimes even
you find yourself
39:00back at the ending again,
even after you thought
39:04you've celebrated, which is
true in organizations, which
39:07is true in life, if
you've ever lost someone,
39:10that you feel like you're on to
something new and doing well,
39:13and then you're
not so good again.
39:15And that's just
the humanity of it.
39:20AUDIENCE: So it talking
about change management
39:23from a human
capital perspective,
39:25our company has
training for employees
39:30that are doing very
manual jobs as you're
39:32going to further automation.
39:34Part of it includes a design
thinking training and the idea
39:37is that you want to
be able to use them
39:41in the new workforce
of the future.
39:44So we're at the front end of
that, where it's a lot of talk
39:47that we're going to
train these people.
39:49We're going to kind of
revamp them into the new org.
39:53I just was wondering if you've
seen that done effectively.
39:55And if there's things that I
can keep in mind to incorporate
40:03One in particular,
it's to make sure
40:10that they know that all of their
training to date got them here.
40:15And it's not that we
are reprogramming.
40:18I think that tweak in
message can be important.
40:21Whenever we do see
industries that are like,
40:27there is an end of an era, and
that era is not coming back.
40:32And that sort of job
retraining, which
40:33it sounds like you are in,
the goal is to make people--
40:37to make sure that people know
that everything they've done
40:39is not for naught, is not
outdated, is not the old way.
40:45It's the way that got you to
today so that you can continue
40:49to learn the new thing.
40:50So just particularly,
in any of the messaging,
40:53in any of the
framing, it's not we--
41:00it's not antagonizing any
of their old-school skills.
41:06See, I just did it, right?
41:07And it's like, oh, old
school it's making sure
41:11that they know that they
were valued for that,
41:13so that they can
more easily engage
41:18in what is, to many people,
just obviously the future.
41:22And it's better
to help people see
41:25that then push them into it.
41:32I think that's time.
41:34I promised to finish by now.
41:36I really appreciate spending
the morning with you.
