00:05AIDEN SIMPSON: Welcome
to the Method Podcast.
00:07I'm Aiden Simpson
and this is where
00:08we talk to designers at
Google about work, life,
00:11and the future of design.
00:14DARREN DELAYE: I have an
overarching goal for myself,
00:17my career that has
stayed pretty constant
00:21but that's always helping
me get new challenges,
00:24which is I want to
help people do things
00:26that they didn't think
they could do themselves.
00:28AIDEN SIMPSON: That was Darren
Delaye, a user experience
00:30designer working
on virtual reality.
00:33Darren and I talked about
the unique challenges
00:35of designing for VR systems,
how Google's approach to design
00:38has changed over the last 12
years, and much, much more.
00:42So that's enough for me.
00:43Let's get into this
episode with Darren Delaye.
00:49DARREN DELAYE: My
name is Darren Delaye.
00:51And I work on the
Daydream VR team.
00:54And I've been at Google
for just over 12 years.
00:57AIDEN SIMPSON: 12 years.
00:59AIDEN SIMPSON: I looked at your
resume, and it's 13 pages long.
01:01DARREN DELAYE: And it
probably hasn't been updated
01:02in two or three or four years.
01:04AIDEN SIMPSON:
One of the reasons
01:05I wanted to talk to
you in the first place
01:06is you're a person
who has touched nearly
01:09every major Google product out
there everything from Google
01:13Docs, Google Ventures, Google
Maps, and now this kind
01:18DARREN DELAYE: Yeah.
01:19AIDEN SIMPSON:
What's hard about VR?
01:21DARREN DELAYE: VR
is the biggest jump
01:22I've ever made in terms
of how much of a change
01:25it is from my previous projects.
01:27In 2008 or 2009, I
switched to mobile design
01:31from all the web design
I've done before that.
01:34But that was pretty
straightforward
01:35because everybody
was a mobile user,
01:39and it was still flat design.
01:41But changing to
a truly 3D medium
01:46is just the biggest shift
in tools and techniques
01:50You can throw everything
about mobile design
01:52out the window when
you move into VR--
01:55not everything about
user interaction
01:58and the way that people
need to understand your UI
02:01and move through it,
but in terms of layout
02:06and what you have to do at
a time and stuff like that.
02:08AIDEN SIMPSON: So you mentioned
some of the similarities.
02:10Can you kind of talk
about the main differences
02:13and the main learnings
that you found?
02:15DARREN DELAYE: When you
go into VR these days,
02:18there's first there's sort of a
sense of amazement and wonder.
02:22You have to wait a few
seconds when you first
02:24show a VR UI for the user
to look around and get
02:28their bearings and
understand where they are
02:30and what they're seeing.
02:31Speed isn't necessarily
the main thing
02:34that we have to worry about
in terms of a task completion.
02:40And then because the
UI is all around you,
02:42we have to make decisions from
a broader set of possibilities.
02:47But everybody's first instinct
when they design for VR
02:50is to say, I have all the space.
02:54I can put up so many
windows at once.
02:56I can show a million tiles
of content at the same time.
03:01I can put things up, down,
left, right behind you.
03:04But actually,
that's overwhelming.
03:06And so what we have
to stay a little more
03:12cautious about where in the
user's your field of view
03:15that we decide to
put all our stuff
03:16and what they're
going to read first,
03:18what they're going to
notice, how far away or close
03:20up to them things have to be.
03:23And then one of the
biggest differences in VR
03:26right now is screen resolution,
that we got pretty used
03:31to these great screens
that we have on our phones,
03:34that once you hit that retina
level, that everything else is
03:39And even on the very
first smartphones,
03:42you'd use the same number of
pixels as a desktop monitor
03:46and font were as big as
your eye needed them to be.
03:50You can make out
those pixels make out
03:51those letters and those pixels.
03:53But when you take today's
super high resolution phones
03:57but stretch with
the optical lenses
03:59that that same number of pixels
over your entire field of view,
04:04it turns out we're way
below retina resolution
04:07for in terms of
what you can see.
04:09And you have to make
the text much bigger
04:13in terms of the physical size,
how much of your field of view
04:20one letter takes
up in order to make
04:23that drawn with enough
pixels for it to be readable.
04:27So we have giant, giant
text these days just
04:30to make things readable in VR.
04:32AIDEN SIMPSON: A user still
needs a consistent place
04:34to go to find the
actions that they need.
04:36DARREN DELAYE: Yeah.
04:37AIDEN SIMPSON: Are you coming
up with new paradigms--
04:39DARREN DELAYE: Yeah.
04:40AIDEN SIMPSON: --to
where to put stuff?
04:41DARREN DELAYE: We are.
04:41We also have a controller.
04:43So one of the
biggest differences
04:44with Daydream compared
to say Cardboard
04:47is the controller we're using.
04:48That's also a big difference
compared to the other mobile VR
04:52that's out there, like Your VR.
04:54We have buttons like
your TV remote does
04:56or like your game
console controller does
04:59that can be your safety
blanket to get you back
05:01to Home and stuff like that.
05:03We've started to look at stuff
like the grid being centered
05:08directly in front of you
as opposed to even thinking
05:10about it like you read
from the top left down,
05:13that the center of
your field of view
05:14is where we need to think
about our UIs starting.
05:17So when you put a Back button or
a Close button, a lot of times
05:19we put it centered
down at the bottom
05:22but centered so that they feel
that feels like a primary spot,
05:25not somewhere floating
in an arbitrary spot
05:28like somewhere in
the upper left.
05:30AIDEN SIMPSON: What
do you guys see
05:31as the opportunities for VR?
05:33DARREN DELAYE: VR
has the opportunity
05:35to transport you
somewhere else and put you
05:38in another environment.
05:40It's unique in the fact
that even though VR is not
05:46the end of the line for all the
technology that we're building,
05:49there is a direct
line through VR
05:52to AR, Which has the potential
to replace your phone
05:56and replace every screen we
see on a day to day basis
06:00all the time in the long run.
06:03But VR's still not going to go
away because VR's experience is
06:08something kind of
momentous or a big paradigm
06:13shift, which is that
you're not where you are,
06:16You feel like you're
dreaming, which
06:19is where the name
came from, that you
06:21get to experience
something amazing you never
06:23would have gotten to otherwise.
06:25And for a while, I think
that VR experiences
06:28are just amazing in the sense
that when you go to a theme
06:34park, you go to Disneyland,
you go to Universal Studios,
06:37they show you some
amazing experiences.
06:40Well, VR can do a lot of those
types of amazing experiences
06:44that you get to
try, you get to say
06:45you did them but in the
comfort of your own home
06:49So that's just sort of
the entertainment side.
06:52We start out right
now thinking about VR
06:54as having tons of entertainment
potential and possibility.
06:57And then as our
inputs get better
07:01and our controls get
better, it starts
07:03to become more useful for
getting some of the things done
07:06that you might want to do.
07:07AIDEN SIMPSON: I can see like a
huge application in education.
07:10DARREN DELAYE: Absolutely.
07:11Our Expeditions program
was absolutely amazing.
07:14And it was really only
possible because of the way
07:17that Cardboard started, that
you really could take 30 or 50
07:20of them, put them in a box,
and take them to a classroom.
07:23And the team that
created Expeditions
07:27struck gold in terms of
the bang for the buck
07:31that you could get from
sending a tablet and 50
07:34phones and Cardboard
just to a school
07:37and getting to take kids
on a virtual field trip.
07:41In terms of the education things
that you can do in general,
07:45you can do things like
training, like teach someone
07:48how to do something by showing
them and having them do it.
07:52You can put people in an
interactive virtual classroom.
07:57You can have the teacher making
appropriate or constant eye
08:03contact with every
student in the room,
08:05even if they're not
actually making eye contact
08:07with that student,
which has been
08:09shown to increase retention.
08:12There's actually
lots of little tricks
08:13that will help you
remember what you've
08:15learned that become
possible when you move it
08:19into a context like VR.
08:20AIDEN SIMPSON: You talked
about some interesting kind
08:23of research findings there.
08:25What has surprised you
the most whilst you've
08:27been developing Daydream do
you think from a user research
08:31DARREN DELAYE: I don't
know what's surprised,
08:33but one of the things
that I've liked
08:34getting the most from
our research team
08:36is all of the ergonomics that
we need to know about in order
08:41to make this product
happen, to think
08:44about the wide range of
body positions and body
08:49measurements, ranges of motion.
08:53It's really different to
design VR for a person who's
08:56sitting back in a
chair, standing up,
08:59can take a few steps, or might
be lying back on their bed.
09:04And similarly, all
those positions
09:06mean different ranges of
motion, not just for your neck
09:09but for your arm and your hands
that we have to account for.
09:14And one of the
interesting things
09:16that we had to do of late
in the design process
09:20was we have our controller,
and it's a motion controller.
09:23You can point at
things, works great.
09:25But since the screen's
all around you,
09:28we had to choose where the
UI should be on the screen up
09:33and down side to side.
09:34And we chose that mostly
based on the range of motion
09:38of your neck and your
eyes, where you could look.
09:40But being able to point at
them was just as important.
09:43And we really started to
realize that pointing far down
09:48is a really stretchy,
uncomfortable motion
09:52The way you hold a TV
remote and then try
09:54to point it at the
ground kind of stretches
09:56your wrist in a bad way.
09:58And we realized that we
needed to actually make
10:01the pointer, the
laser pointer come out
10:06at a bit of a downward angle
from the controller in order
10:09to optimize the range
of elbow and hand motion
10:13with where you were
going to need to point
10:15to point at the UI in Daydream.
10:17AIDEN SIMPSON: This might be a
very simple question to answer,
10:19but how do you physically
user test Daydream?
10:22Is it the same as any other
product, get them in a room?
10:25DARREN DELAYE: It is pretty
similar to any other product.
10:28We mostly used a couch actually
as the best analog for the way
10:34that users will be in
reasonably long VR sessions.
10:39So we set our
users on the couch,
10:40and we would have them actually
take the device out of the box
10:45like it was the very first
time they would use it, put
10:48their phone in it, and go
through all the setup steps,
10:52and then go through
our controller
10:55tutorial, our sign-in,
our form of payment entry,
10:59and then try an app.
11:01And they'd get
through all the steps.
11:02And those actually sort of made
up our critical user journey
11:05set that we were testing against
for the last bunch of months
11:10leading up to launch.
11:11AIDEN SIMPSON: So you
just want to get them up
11:12and running as
quickly as possible
11:13and what's the
most effective way.
11:15DARREN DELAYE: And
making sure they
11:16understood the really
critical parts,
11:18like how to use the controller.
11:19AIDEN SIMPSON: We've all
seen that the internet memes
11:22of people like running
into walls in their houses
11:25Do you have any plans on how
you might keep people safe?
11:29So right now in Daydream, we
don't track your movement.
11:36We only track the rotational
position of the headset.
11:40And so there's actually less
of an instinct for people
11:44that take steps or walk or run,
because their scene won't move,
11:48their head in the
virtual space won't move.
11:50And so most of the
problems you have
11:53where people are doing dangerous
movement or running into things
11:58is because those systems did
let you take a couple steps.
12:02But if you take a couple more,
you're going to hit your wall.
12:05And so in the first version, we
do run through recommendations
12:10like sit or stand for this.
12:12As VR gets better, you do want
to be able to track a movement.
12:16And I think one of
the first things we're
12:17going to do when we don't want
people to move at all really
12:22is pretty much
fade to black when
12:23you get too far away
from where you start,
12:26which has a natural tendency
to make you lean back
12:29to where you started.
12:30Then once you can move
around the entire room,
12:33we've got more
work to do to make
12:35sure you don't hit the walls.
12:36AIDEN SIMPSON: It's
also a slight departure.
12:38I can't help but think about
Sergei and his original plan
12:40with Glass to get people to
look up from their phones
12:43and to be immersed in
the world around them.
12:45And Daydream and VR is
going the opposite way.
12:48It's a very solo exercise.
12:49DARREN DELAYE: Yeah.
12:50So there's kind of
two parts of that
12:52is I do think of it as one
of my main goals of my job
12:56is to make VR
socially acceptable
13:00or a social activity.
13:02And there are great
ways to do that.
13:05It's really fun
to watch somebody
13:07who is in VR do fun things.
13:10People in a living room can all
have fun with just one of them
13:13in a headset, that's
absolutely true, especially
13:16if you can see what's
going on in the headset.
13:18It's really magical actually
to be able to be co-present
13:21with someone else as if
you were in the same room
13:24You feel like they're
there, because they're
13:26bobbing their head and moving
your hand as if they're there.
13:28And if you can hear
them, it's an experience
13:30that's more magical than
the graphical fidelity would
13:33make you think it is.
13:35So VR together and social VR
is going to be really powerful.
13:41There is another aspect to that
about like keeping your head up
13:44and being present
in the world you're
13:47in which is interesting
to me in VR, which
13:49is that we as the platform
designers and the Daydream team
13:56kind of get to make this
choice going forward
13:59about whether people
still have all
14:01the interruptions of their
life showing to them in VR
14:06or whether we keep it a little
more like your sanctuary
14:11from all the things around you.
14:12I think some people
are going to want one
14:14and some people are
going to want the other.
14:17So for example, if somebody
sends you a text message,
14:21do you want to get that
popping up inside your VR game?
14:26Some people say, no, I was
watching something amazing.
14:29I don't want to be
taken out of it.
14:31And other people say, yeah.
14:33That's important if I miss out
on getting that notification,
14:37then I'll just always
be worried that I'm
14:40missing my notifications.
14:42And so it's just
interesting to me
14:46that we get to make the choice.
14:48And as an analogy
on our TV products,
14:52we don't pop up your
notifications on a TV.
14:55But the reason for
that is because you've
14:56got your phone with you, and
you can glance at it still.
15:00When you're in VR, you can't.
15:02You are isolated
from your phone.
15:05And people have
different reactions
15:07to being isolated
from their phones.
15:08AIDEN SIMPSON: Talking
about the phones themselves,
15:10it's an interesting
choice technology
15:12wise to opt for doing
this on a mobile device.
15:15A lot of other players out
there that I've read about,
15:18you need your high-end
Windows PC to run VR,
15:20but we're making we're
making the choice
15:22to use mobile phones.
15:24DARREN DELAYE: Actually
one of the reasons
15:26I got really
interested in VR was
15:29the Gear VR, which was the first
really good mobile VR solution.
15:35And it was when I saw
that this would really
15:38be a thing, that it
was good enough to make
15:40you feel like you're elsewhere.
15:42The mobile VR is
really our strength.
15:45And I think in the long run,
it's absolutely the right thing
15:48to do, because it provides a
better form factor for comfort
15:54and the types of
headsets that you
15:55need to wear for
being untethered
15:57from a giant computer.
15:59It should be less expensive.
16:00In the long run, it's
a much better solution.
16:04We get comfortable VR.
16:05We don't get high-end end
console video graphics.
16:09But the immersiveness makes
up for it in most cases,
16:14that things being
all around you,
16:16video can stream just as
well on a mobile device
16:19as it can from a desktop,
that the technology is ready.
16:23And so we're kind of getting
all of our technology
16:28and our stacks and our designs
ready from the mobile side
16:31first as opposed to having to
wait for mobile to catch up
16:35to some nicer version
but that would've
16:37been heavier and tethered.
16:38So yeah, mobile first for us.
16:39AIDEN SIMPSON: You talked
about your responsibility
16:41to get people to be
more social using VR.
16:45Are there any interesting
implications you've seen
16:47within the company
or outside that
16:49are pushing VR in that
direction and helping you?
16:52DARREN DELAYE: Yeah.
16:52One of the coolest
things we did was
16:55we dedicated a
team of prototypers
16:58to do use case
validation for VR.
17:01So they could use any
platform they wanted.
17:04And they had a couple
of dedicated rooms
17:06to just creating the best things
we could try in VR as a team.
17:11And for months, the best
things everybody wanted to try
17:14were where you were hanging
out with someone else in VR who
17:18was in a different headset.
17:19And you could make a
jigsaw puzzle together,
17:21you could play a game, you could
play dress up at one point.
17:25And that was kind of
where we learned that it
17:28is this magical experience.
17:30And then I compare social VR to
the types of video conferences
17:39So the biggest downside is you
can't look the other person
17:43You've got a headset
on, and they probably
17:46But you can do things together,
like you can play a game,
17:51you can watch some media,
you can watch a presentation.
17:56You can point at things and
direct each other's attention.
17:59And you can feel like you're
having a conversation.
18:02So it's great to have an
activity to do when two of you
18:07But also, I think that
it can replace or augment
18:12that feeling that you get--
18:14the reason why a lot of
people FaceTime or call
18:17their grandparents isn't so
they can share information.
18:19It's not so they can
talk, because you
18:22could talk on the phone.
18:23The reason you use FaceTime
is because you feel
18:26like you spent time together.
18:28Actually, that's the word I
used, it's you spent time.
18:30I spend time with
my grandfather.
18:33And I think you can achieve
that same thing in VR
18:36with activities where
you're doing things
18:37in social VR, which is
feeling like you spent time
18:40with that other person,
getting to know each other,
18:43feeling like you
shared an experience.
18:45AIDEN SIMPSON: So you were
kind of the design lead,
18:48and you were on the Maps
project for the whole
18:52of the mobile birth of it.
18:54DARREN DELAYE: Yeah I was
the mobile design lead
18:56for Maps for like
4 and 1/2 years
18:58and then the last
year so a year or two
19:00of that all of Consumer Maps.
19:03AIDEN SIMPSON: Are
there any parallels
19:05that you can draw between
working on Maps and Daydream--
19:09the big canvas, the big
surface, anything like that?
19:13Maps is such a utility.
19:17And I always thought
about it that way,
19:19how do I get this
task done for the user
19:21so they can put the phone
back in their pocket?
19:25And Daydream, in the
near-term thinking about it,
19:28I think about it as an
entertainment device.
19:30How do I keep people
to form a habit
19:34to make this part of their
entertainment choices
19:36for the things
they're going to do?
19:39There is one part about it where
I do draw some parallel, which
19:47is that I've always thought
a thought about Local Search
19:50on Maps as the "Place Store"
that just like if I'm shopping
19:56on the Play Store or
looking on Netflix,
20:00that there is one element
of maps that turns
20:05into an entertainment choices
part, which is like, hey,
20:08where do I want to go to dinner,
or where do I want to travel?
20:11And so we think
about like, OK, well,
20:13I'm only going to
choose one of these.
20:15But several of them might
be interesting to me
20:19What hooks me about it?
20:21What red flags do I see?
20:23I want to do my due diligence.
20:25And that carries
over for me that way
20:27of thinking into the
version of the Play Store
20:31that we have in VR where
you're making a lot of choices
20:35about where to spend your
money, where to spend your time.
20:38if it's free, what's the cost?
20:40Well, the cost is having
to download it still,
20:43because it's a big
download, which
20:44is kind of similar to
saying, oh, this restaurant
20:47is far away, and I
have to drive there.
20:49Even though it's not an
expensive restaurant,
20:51that's the cost to me.
20:52I had this one
parallel in mind when
20:53I'm doing part of
my Daydream job now.
20:56AIDEN SIMPSON: What
compelled you to become
20:58a designer in the first place.
21:00DARREN DELAYE: I was a
computer science major.
21:02And I did an HCI
masters at Stanford.
21:04And I got an internship
here as a UX designer.
21:08I was the third intern, third
design intern at Google.
21:12AIDEN SIMPSON: Ever?
21:13DARREN DELAYE: There are
two others, one the year
21:15before me and the one
the year before that.
21:17And so there are
about 12, 13 people
21:20on the design team at the time.
21:22And I started to love building
interfaces as a programmer
21:27when I was in school.
21:29And I knew I didn't
want to write backends.
21:32I wanted to make things
that people could use.
21:34AIDEN SIMPSON: How
has the design all
21:35changed at Google in that time?
21:37DARREN DELAYE: The shift
is sort of just in emphasis
21:40and the institutionalization
of how important it
21:43is to get the UX right, to
get the design details right,
21:47because you could always
do it with good personal
21:50relationships where you had
proven out what you needed
21:53to do with your
research team, and you
21:55had been persuasive
with your pitch
21:59to your product
management in engineering.
22:02And you'd put together
all the right materials.
22:04And you've made it easy
enough to implement
22:06because of that design
choices you made
22:08and your understanding
of the technology.
22:11We could get our products to
be great and usable on the back
22:16of the designer's work.
22:18But now I think
there's more people who
22:19are willing to step up and
say that that design parts are
22:23important and that spending
all the time that it takes
22:27In the last few
years, I think there
22:29our tools for flowing from
the design departments
22:34to the engineering environments
have made a world of difference
22:38in making it easier
to do the right thing.
22:40I used to say, the
easiest thing always wins.
22:44That'll be the decision
that your team goes with.
22:46And if the easy thing
is also the thing
22:48that the design team
prefers, then that's
22:51how we get our job done.
22:53AIDEN SIMPSON: How
have the design rules
22:55changed in that kind of tenure?
22:58DARREN DELAYE: Yeah, we've
started to specialize.
23:00I remember when that started.
23:02I used to say we do
our own visual design,
23:04like we do our own stunts.
23:06And then we had one visual
designer, that was Doug Bowman.
23:11And that was like the
first person that was not
23:14a UX designer or UX researcher.
23:16And from there, we've gotten
to have so many people who have
23:19specialized amazing skills.
23:21Prototyping was
one of the skills
23:23that a lot of our
designers already had.
23:25That was one that we always
recruited for in our designers.
23:31But the writers and
the motion designers
23:34and all the people
who have jobs that
23:38help us do one
thing really well,
23:40those are so great to have.
23:41AIDEN SIMPSON: What has kept
you interested over the last 12
23:45DARREN DELAYE: I have an
overarching goal for myself,
23:47my career that has
stayed pretty constant
23:52but that's always helping
me get new challenges,
23:54which is I want to
help people do things
23:56that they didn't think
they could do themselves.
23:59So it's really
about empowerment.
24:01And there's always the new
things that I can help them do
24:04and new things that our
technology can help them do.
24:08And so with that being my theme,
it's like every product I have,
24:12I'm all about adding
new capabilities.
24:16Hopefully it's not just
new features but the things
24:19that make a difference,
because they
24:22weren't things you
could do before
24:24without asking your techie
son or daughter to help you.
24:27And that's been true
for all my projects.
24:29AIDEN SIMPSON: You talk about
making the jump to managing.
24:31That is something that's
like I feel like is
24:33a hot topic in our design org.
24:35There's a lot of designers who
would like to make that jump.
24:39What's been the greatest
personal challenge for you
24:41in becoming a manager
over the years?
24:43DARREN DELAYE:
Well it's probably
24:45hiring actually, making sure
that I spend enough time doing
24:49the hiring parts and
reaching out to people
24:53and finding people that are
the right fit for a role
24:58and things like that.
24:59Personally, that's like the
part that I am constantly
25:02challenging myself to keep at.
25:04AIDEN SIMPSON: Is
there anything else you
25:06would like to improve in 2017?
25:08DARREN DELAYE: On
the Daydream team
25:09there's a new challenge that
I've never had to face before,
25:12which is not knowing
exactly what versions
25:17of your platform, your hardware
the future to design for.
25:21Normally, the
easiest projects are
25:24the ones where the goals
and you know the parameters.
25:27But when we design the IOS
version of Google Maps,
25:30we knew exactly what four
features we needed to launch,
25:33and we had a ship date, and
we had a backend that worked.
25:36Sometimes working on the
Daydream team and in VR,
25:40we can't even know what
year's version of hardware
25:46and platform capabilities we
should be thinking about when
25:50we look at the specificity of
something like designing a VR
25:53keyboard, like oh,
well, should we only
25:56design it for today's controller
or a controller that might
25:59be out two years from now?
26:01The resolution of today's
screens or those resolution
26:04of a screen that might be out a
year or two or three from now?
26:06It just takes a lot
of planning and then
26:08some discipline did not get lost
thinking about too many things
26:14AIDEN SIMPSON: You're
very energetic guy.
26:16DARREN DELAYE: [LAUGHS]
26:17AIDEN SIMPSON: What are you most
excited about for the next 12
26:20DARREN DELAYE: Well, I'm
pretty excited to see
26:22like what Google's able to
do with the future of screens
26:29I would like for
us to see if we can
26:32make our lives both more
streamlined and peaceful
26:37and also more informed.
26:40AIDEN SIMPSON: Darren,
thanks so much for your time.
26:42DARREN DELAYE:
Thank you so much.
26:45All righty, just a final word
from us at Google Design.
26:48Did you can sign up for Google
Design's quarterly newsletter
26:51covering the latest
and greatest design
26:52stories from Google and beyond?
26:55All you have to do is go to
design.google/newsletter,
26:59put in your details, and receive
all this goodness straight
27:02One of my favorite parts
is actually the Five Things
27:04to Love Right Now section.
27:06This is a curated
list of cool things
27:08chosen by people at Google.
27:09And I always learn
something new.
27:12All right, that's it from us.
