00:01thank you okay I'm just gonna admit it
00:04I'm really nervous so I just got that
00:07out of the way but I'm actually really
00:09excited to share with you my insights
00:12from being a reluctant leader for most
00:15of my career this is Margaret Lee she's
00:18standing at the front of a room full of
00:19people she's nervous these are not just
00:22other people this is the leading design
00:25conference in London a conference with
00:27global attendees specifically for well
00:31leaders in the design industry other
00:33speakers include leaders from design
00:35organizations like slack and Pinterest
00:38Capital One MailChimp Atlassian and
00:41other names that you've heard of market
00:44is telling the room about the conflict
00:46that she's lived with for most of her
00:47life this conflict led her to see
00:50herself as what she calls a reluctant
00:53leader welcome to the Google method
00:57podcast today we have Margaret in the
00:59studio and we're gonna be talking about
01:01observing her parents as immigrant
01:03workers what she's doing to redefine
01:05what leadership means and also how she's
01:08hoping to channel the fearlessness and
01:11opinionated nature of her daughter into
01:13leadership qualities all this as someone
01:16who is never really identified with
01:19being a natural-born leader
01:21getting to this actually really
01:23gratifying point in my career has been
01:26somewhat of a reluctant journey that
01:28actually started long before any of
01:30these roles so Who I am as a leader has
01:34been deeply influenced by my life
01:36experiences and by my dad and his life
01:39experience Margaret in your talk you
01:41begin by speaking about your heritage
01:43and you know I love this because I'm I'm
01:46someone who when I'm understanding
01:47something I always start with the
01:48history of it and how we got there and
01:51how we became who we are and I'm very
01:53interested in your the story of your
01:54father he was a stowaway yes so he he
01:58ate cucumbers apparently for whatever
02:00length of time it took the ship to get
02:03from China to America I'm guessing was
02:06about two weeks and I didn't know about
02:10this story until one day
02:12we were sitting around the dining room
02:15table at home and for whatever reason we
02:17had cucumbers which was an unusual food
02:19for us to bring into the house up until
02:21that point and it was his day off and I
02:24remember he woke up and he kind of
02:25strolled through the kitchen and he saw
02:27his heating cucumbers and he just kind
02:29of scowled and said I hate cucumbers and
02:33that was the first time I learned about
02:35the story of him being a stowaway
02:37because he never talked to us about that
02:40before and I learned about this that day
02:43and I don't remember how old I was I was
02:45I was maybe about 15 about his age when
02:48I learned about it just totally by
02:50happenstance his age yeah
02:53it's an amazing story of courage and
02:55hope and bravery I'm wondering how these
02:59stories impacted you is I mean you're 15
03:02you know I remember myself as 15 like a
03:05totally different worldview from
03:07I wonder how these things impacted you
03:10growing up hearing these stories you
03:12know there weren't huge aha moments in
03:15the moment I think a lot of these had a
03:18slow burn for me you know I would
03:21collect these stories I would hear by
03:23chance just like this story of the
03:25cucumber's and why my dad couldn't look
03:27you know without just feeling sick about
03:30it I would collect these stories
03:32completely just by happenstance and they
03:35would kind of accumulate I think in the
03:36back of my mind until at some point it
03:39became relevant for me and I realized
03:42that my slow journey as a reluctant
03:44leader really reflected some of my
03:46family history and how it was such a
03:48slow trickle to come out because
03:50speaking about the hard times isn't
03:53something that was done a lot in the
03:55house because it was just better left
03:57unsaid mm-hmm and we were you know
03:59focused on like what can we do to get
04:02beyond the hard times do you think that
04:04your opinion of that has changed I mean
04:06you're speaking about it now and
04:08publicly do you think that you should
04:10not talk about the hard times or is it
04:12worth going over I find myself wanting
04:15to talk about the hard times more maybe
04:16because my son is 15 now mm-hmm
04:19my daughter is 14 they're hard times
04:22look very different than my hard times
04:24which looked very different than my dad
04:25hard times and I think history is just a
04:28really important lesson that is a gift
04:31to us and it took me a long time to to
04:34maybe come to terms with my own history
04:36and I just want to share it these days
04:39not only with my kids but just I've
04:42learned a lot you know and why not share
04:44that right you've seen a lot too you
04:47shared stories of seeing your mother and
04:50your aunties bring home you know extra
04:53work from the sweatshops and your father
04:56working in restaurants and I'm wondering
04:59how you felt at that time did did you
05:01feel like you had a place and all of
05:03that hustle oh we definitely had a place
05:05they put us to work oh yeah oh yeah they
05:08put us to work so you know my
05:09grandmother and my my mom and my
05:11stepmother after my mom died would
05:13continue to bring home all this extra
05:15work and we would help them you know so
05:18they would they would so these callers
05:20and we'd be put to work inverting them
05:24and taking a needle and making sure that
05:26the points of the callers were there
05:28because they wouldn't get paid if they
05:30weren't perfect right so everybody
05:31pitched in and sometimes on the weekends
05:35my older sisters would go to the
05:37restaurant and help my dad out for a
05:38little bit of pocket change as well
05:39mm-hmm and the big season was always
05:42Christmas because Chinese restaurants
05:45were one of the only places left open to
05:47eat on Christmas right so that was a big
05:50day for business you know talk you give
05:52this it's really incredibly insight
05:55after the laundry closed my dad went on
05:58to work in one suburban Chinese
06:00restaurant after another for decades
06:02first in the back of the house as a
06:05dishwasher and then a cook and
06:07eventually he moved to the better jobs
06:10in the front as a waiter and then a
06:12bartender getting these
06:14front-of-the-house jobs was essentially
06:16like getting promoted they were the
06:18better jobs but they came with a
06:20trade-off when he worked in the back of
06:23the house you know he could speak
06:25Chinese to his co-workers and his
06:26friends he was comfortable in his skin
06:29but when he was serving customers in the
06:31front of the house he had to assume a
06:33whole different persona and this took a
06:36lot of effort not just to speak a second
06:39language but to understand the social
06:41norms that went with his customers who
06:44were largely white suburban and
06:47middle-class so this was the metaphor as
06:49I went to school graduated into the
06:52workforce and proceeded down the
06:55leadership path I carried that same
06:57duality of back in front of the house
06:59personas so tell me about this duality
07:02when I grew up in Boston it was a very
07:05volatile time for race busing was being
07:11instituted in the city and Boston in
07:15general was a very segregated culture I
07:18think environment so I was always keenly
07:22aware of being different as were you
07:26know many other cultures right but I had
07:29my place I stuck with the Chinese
07:31community outside of school but inside
07:34of school I had to integrate just into
07:37the general school population right so
07:39from an early age I definitely felt that
07:42duality of you know there was the home
07:44life and then there was the outside home
07:46life and yes that carried on into higher
07:50education into the workforce even after
07:54I left Boston I went to school in
07:56Philadelphia another fairly racially
08:00charged City at times and one of the
08:03reasons why I moved out to the west
08:04coast was when I came out to the Bay
08:07Area I actually felt like it was the
08:09first time that I saw a lot of people
08:12like myself a lot of other Asians and
08:14they were much more well integrated into
08:18the general population than what I had
08:20seen in either Boston or Philadelphia
08:22I'm interested in this metaphor that you
08:25give of back of the house to the front
08:26of the house and I feel a lot of us have
08:28to put on a different suit when we come
08:29to work or like a different face when we
08:31go to a different kind of social setting
08:33and it can vary between I mean not just
08:35professionally but like you go to a
08:37party or a gathering or maybe a work
08:39function or maybe home to your parents
08:41house you had to put on a different face
08:43and I'm curious the you seem to be
08:47advocating to bringing the whole self
08:51understanding that right I am advocating
08:53that now because I realized for so many
08:55years that I hadn't done that myself and
08:58I do a lot of mentoring now mm-hmm and I
09:02see actually a very similar circumstance
09:07or struggle that a lot of women I do a
09:10lot of mentoring for women but not just
09:11women and women of color they have that
09:14similar back of the house front of the
09:16house thing going on because I think
09:18that they don't feel that who they are
09:20authentically is what's being asked of
09:23them at work so that's where I'm really
09:25interested in having the conversation
09:28mm-hmm and that's why I'm so willing to
09:31talk about this right now because if I
09:34can save some people that inner angst of
09:38always having to feel like they're
09:40making a trade off somewhere I think
09:42that would be great because we talk
09:43about diversity and inclusion all the
09:46time in tech and what does that really
09:49it can't just be like are we looking at
09:52it as a set of fixed demographics right
09:54that's that's certainly one way to
09:56measure it but it goes so much beyond
09:58that like what what are the the
10:00qualities that people bring from
10:02different demographics that we're
10:04measuring you know are we really really
10:06willing to have that full person's
10:10experience come into the workplace
10:12yeah these qualities are really
10:14interesting to me and something that you
10:16outline in the conflict that can come
10:17when the qualities that are demanded in
10:20the workplace are aligned or just
10:23compared to the quality is that you know
10:25in your life you were given to like the
10:27role to fill you know you mentioned
10:31versus being disruptive and being humble
10:35at home and in that life versus at work
10:38being asked to be the front and being
10:39pushed into leadership positions
10:41respecting Authority versus being
10:44individualistic and being a mold breaker
10:45and things like that I think that's so
10:48fascinating and I'm wondering how can
10:51you find harmony in those two halves
10:53that is at the crux of the struggle that
10:56I've had you know over the many years is
10:58just sort of feeling my way through how
11:01much authenticity to bring to the
11:05place and how much that I felt like okay
11:07here go my Aries for development again
11:09you know because they were the same all
11:11the time you know it's like you have to
11:13speak up more you have to represent more
11:15you know it was very much about at least
11:18what I was hearing for so many years is
11:20you have to be more out there that for
11:24me was very different than how I was
11:27brought up and just who I naturally am
11:29out there being like outspoken and
11:33really visible you know the fact that I
11:36even did that talk that you just played
11:38clips from mm-hmm that was my first
11:40public talk that okay I've done outside
11:44of like sitting on a panel or something
11:46but where I was like I have a topic that
11:48I really want to talk about and I'm
11:50gonna go out there for 30 minutes and do
11:52it yeah that's something that I've just
11:54never wanted to do or you know just give
11:57me the hives just thinking about it but
12:00it was because I really wanted to talk
12:02about this now mm-hmm
12:03because I see so many other people in
12:06this situation that's made me want to
12:08talk about it but it's very different
12:11than how I was brought up I realized
12:14that I can't do it alone
12:16that it takes both sides right it's it's
12:19a relationship at work it's not just me
12:22presenting myself it's the expectations
12:24that we as a work culture have and
12:27everybody and are we willing to have
12:31people bring their whole diverse selves
12:33to work or are we just saying okay that
12:35fill the demographic requirement now can
12:38you please do everything that we have
12:40always expected of everyone in the
12:42workplace right like it's the culture
12:44tends to be a lot less diverse and then
12:47in terms of how we view leadership and
12:50that that's the duality that I was
12:52suddenly starting to realize that oh
12:54it's not just for me to fix it's for all
12:57of us to fix I can do my part I can
13:00bring my whole self to work but is that
13:03going to be accepted and not just me but
13:05other people like me and other people
13:08not like me because there's so many
13:10different types of leadership that could
13:13be possible if we just open our minds
13:16about it so when we include
13:18a diversity of experience and cultures
13:21into our workforce the expected outcome
13:24is a diversity of output but the problem
13:29or one of the problems we're running up
13:30against is that leadership will still
13:32have the same expectations from a non
13:35diverse workforce is is that what I'm
13:36hearing yes and I'm not saying it's a
13:40intentional expectation even but it's
13:43just that we've never challenged our
13:46notions of what leadership could look
13:48like yeah and in your talk you make a
13:50really strong case for broadening the
13:52perspective of what leadership is
13:54so in recapping the five things that we
13:57can do to broaden our perspectives on
13:59leadership we can forget culture fit and
14:02be willing to get uncomfortable with the
14:04unknown we can take the time and listen
14:07to learn to invite inclusivity we can
14:10expand our frame of reference to get out
14:13of the fixed mindset we can own the
14:16problem and the solution of creating the
14:18culture that we want on our teams and we
14:21can value non jerks and discover just
14:24how rich leadership can be these aren't
14:28none of these are difficult but they
14:30will require conscious effort to shift
14:32our mindset and behaviors until it feels
14:35a little bit more second nature so you
14:36have a list of five things here that we
14:38can do to broaden our perspective of
14:39leadership and they're very good it's a
14:42good list but I'm curious now just as
14:44we're sitting here is how you've seen
14:46these things play out in your own
14:48journey things like forgetting culture
14:51fit and listening to learn well the
14:54culture fit piece in many ways is at the
14:57core of what I'm talking about because I
15:00think we talked so much about culture
15:04and the importance of culture and I
15:05totally agree but if we have a fixed
15:09perspective on what that culture means
15:11then we're just perpetuating the same
15:14problem of lack of diversity you know so
15:17when we talk about culture fit a lot of
15:20times what we're talking about is the
15:22culture that we're comfortable with you
15:24know do you fit in and that doesn't link
15:26to diversity of thought that just leads
15:29to reinforcing what already exists
15:33and in terms of listening to learn this
15:36is something I recently learned about in
15:39a leadership course that Google offers
15:42which is fantastic and it was just about
15:45how most of the time what we're doing in
15:48our day to day is we're usually just
15:50listening to fix the situation because
15:52we're really efficient in our time and
15:55that's what we're hired to do we're
15:56hired to fix things but when we're doing
15:59that all we're doing is collecting
16:00information to just hone in on a
16:03solution but you can't do that if you
16:06don't understand the situation and
16:08that's where the listening to learn
16:09comes in because if we're unfamiliar
16:12with other life experiences and the
16:15diversity of thought that comes from
16:17other cultures you know we shouldn't be
16:20in this fixing mode because we don't
16:21know what we're fixing you know maybe
16:23there's nothing to fix maybe what we're
16:25in the position to do is just to learn
16:27about what other cultures and other life
16:30experiences can bring and that will end
16:33up playing into a richer team culture
16:36work culture but also the thought that
16:39goes into the work that we're doing will
16:41be a lot more inclusive so I'm looking
16:43for a specific moment or a story in your
16:46own career or this where these
16:47principles have become very real
16:49actually a good example I I talked about
16:52was this listening lunch that I took
16:54part in where several of us female
16:58leaders were gathered to tell about our
17:02experiences as leaders in a very
17:05male-dominated leadership culture
17:08basically to let our host know and our
17:12host was a male leader you know just
17:14some of the circumstances that he might
17:16not be aware of unfortunately there was
17:18a good example of somebody not listening
17:21to learn you know because I think people
17:23are so used to just wanting to help and
17:26wanting to fix things so the intention
17:28might be really good but it's really
17:31hard to sit back and not try to fix
17:33things and just to take it in and what
17:37I've seen is that a lot of people just
17:39don't know how to do this yet and it's
17:41it's a muscle that we haven't built I've
17:43learned about this recently in a
17:46but I'm trained to like assess and
17:48triage and fix you know so for example
17:52if my wife is like I'm frustrated
17:54because X Y Z and this my immediate is
17:57to say like well this is how we're gonna
17:59fix it but I've learned recently and
18:02it's much harder to do but just to step
18:05back and say that must be hard for you
18:10that's so difficult to do but the
18:14outcomes actually are way more
18:16efficacious than if I were to try to fix
18:20it myself because a lot of the time what
18:24we're looking for is humans is just
18:26expression a little bit of solidarity a
18:29little bit of understanding and it goes
18:30so far that's an excellent way of
18:33thank you for thank you for nailing that
18:36that sense of solidarity and
18:37understanding is exactly the most
18:39important thing at some times when
18:42somebody is coming to you vulnerable and
18:44seeking to be understood they're not
18:47seeking to be quote-unquote fixed right
18:49they're just seeking to be understood
18:51you know I mentioned earlier in in our
18:54discussion that I loved the way you
18:55started with history and equally so I
18:57thought it was really great how you kind
18:59of bookend in your talk by looking
19:02toward the future and give this really
19:05great story of your daughter Sophie and
19:08her encounter with her grade school
19:10teacher preschool before even gardenia
19:14when Sophie was four her preschool
19:16teacher Miss Judy called me into her
19:18office and I was like now what you know
19:22what did she do now because she was kind
19:24of a troublemaker and sure enough Miss
19:27Judy started the conversation with in my
19:3025 years of teaching preschool I've
19:34never lost control of the class is when
19:36Sophie starts clowning around and this
19:39went on for a while and I was just like
19:41sinking lower and Lauren you know in my
19:42seat cringing waiting for it to be over
19:44but then her feedback took a sudden turn
19:48the good news Miss Judy said is that
19:51these are signs of a natural-born leader
19:54if we can help direct your tendencies
19:57she'll do just fine I love on the slide
20:00deck you have this picture of Sophie and
20:02we can't like really show it on radio
20:04but it's it's this four year old little
20:06the cute-as-a-button little girl with a
20:09wastebasket on your head and and the
20:12look on her face is one of like defiance
20:15and and just like yeah so what this is
20:19always best I don't know like speaks
20:22volumes about what you're talking about
20:23so maybe in the same way that we talked
20:26about the duality that existed in your
20:27father tell me about the duality of
20:30well like Miss Judy observed even at
20:33four she was exhibiting these
20:35quote-unquote leadership tendencies that
20:37just aren't recognized as such usually
20:40in a child because in a child they're
20:42just trouble you know they're just
20:44undesirable traits right and so she is
20:47coming from the opposite angle of what I
20:50grew up with and I recognize that this
20:53is just who she is I mean just the same
20:55way as I was just who I was she's just
20:58who she is and we all have these
21:01dualities of what we bring to the table
21:03just by nature and then what we need to
21:06do to maybe become just more
21:08well-rounded in whatever a profession or
21:10just even as human beings right because
21:12I think we all have areas for
21:15development not just at work but just in
21:17life and so we all have dualities of
21:20some sort and maybe it's not just -
21:22maybe it's try a letÃs or you know quad
21:26realities whatever the terms are but I
21:28don't think anybody is just one
21:30dimension and it's just we have our
21:32dominant tendencies and then we have
21:34areas that we should be stretching out
21:36into and I think if we all do that I
21:39almost see it as like a systems level
21:40force where if everyone is willing to
21:43kind of stretch 30% beyond our natural
21:47abilities you know we'll make a lot more
21:49connections with each other yeah I
21:51really like that you're focusing on this
21:53idea that people are more than just what
21:55we're asking them to be and they're more
21:58than what their role describes the mass
22:01thinking of somebody in trying to
22:03observe their duality what does this
22:05give us when we kind of understand that
22:08that simple description it certainly
22:11opens the doors for what could be in a
22:15work relationship or personal
22:17relationship or what somebody might
22:20bring to a team project if we can expand
22:23upon this person actually has these
22:27perspectives and these skills that are
22:29not yet represented by the current team
22:31members that's pretty powerful mm-hmm I
22:34mean we as design leaders and as
22:36designers seek out that level of
22:39inclusivity in our design all the time
22:41you know we're looking to understand
22:43people's needs and desires and their
22:47contexts and whatnot why wouldn't we be
22:49doing that on our team as well yeah and
22:53I feel like in a creative sense being
22:55able to not only respect but understand
22:57people's multifaceted natures may open
23:01them up to just more resourcefulness
23:04more creative solutions that don't
23:07really like fit the description of our
23:10job title but I want to go over here
23:12because this is another part of myself
23:14and bring that in and being aware and
23:17recognizing it enables that being told
23:20that you are this kind of person with
23:22this role will definitely I feel really
23:25close out those options it absolutely
23:28will and I think that our roles as as
23:31leaders you know one of the things that
23:34we can do is recognize all these diverse
23:38possibilities on our team and to form
23:41these complementary dynamics on our
23:44teens that we'll just in general it'll
23:47amplify the effect right if we're all
23:49just kind of reinforcing each other's
23:51skill set then we'll be really great at
23:55that one skill but we won't have that
23:57full 360 degree effect that having truly
24:01complimentary diverse viewpoints can
24:04bring at the end of the talk there's
24:06this really beautiful slide it's a
24:08photograph like on the left of your
24:10father I think maybe it's from his
24:11documentation as he's coming into this
24:13dance is a young man he's 15 and then
24:15there's in the middle of photo of you as
24:18a child and he's holding you and then
24:20there's that Sophie photograph on
24:22the right and I know you're talking you
24:25know it's very focused on leadership and
24:27bringing your full self to life's work
24:29but I was wondering if you can do
24:30something else just right now for this
24:32conversation I'm going to show you this
24:34slide here tell me what I don't see here
24:37my dad on the left he has a suit on and
24:41it is probably from when he was about 15
24:43and it's the documentation you don't see
24:47the rest of it there but I know it's
24:48there describing every birthmark on him
24:53and he looks so serious he's in a
24:56Sunday's best right because he wants to
24:58come to this country he's escaping
25:00poverty in the countryside many men of
25:03his generation were leaving China at
25:06that time in the 40s to make a better
25:08life and to send money back home and
25:10that wasn't uncommon so that's what's
25:13behind that photo and in the middle I
25:16don't know how old I am I'm I'm probably
25:18like four or something and then my dad
25:21and I are in the Boston public gardens
25:23and it was probably a rare day off for
25:26him where he could take us to the park
25:29he had one day off a week and he worked
25:3251 weeks a year so it was rare for us to
25:36be able to go to the park and it's one
25:39of the few photos I have like that and
25:42then on the right there's Sophie doing
25:45some salute or another I don't remember
25:47exactly when that photo was taken but
25:49she's probably about five or six and
25:52being cheekiest anything and really I
25:55think what I wanted to do in having
25:58these photos be side by side is just say
26:01you know we're just a point in a
26:03you know life goes on life was here
26:06before us and life will be here after us
26:08what kind of contribution can we make
26:11you know we all have our particular
26:12struggles and we all have our particular
26:15victories but in the end it's what are
26:18we what are we leaving behind that's
26:20beautiful I think just to support the
26:24whole argument of people are diverse
26:27creatures and when I look at this you
26:30know it means something to me but having
26:35that context that richness that you just
26:36brought to it now it means infinitely
26:39more and I'm really feeling that message
26:42that you're bringing of bringing your
26:43whole self your whole identity to
26:46everything that you do makes every
26:48experience more rich thanks for sharing
26:59as always you can find more information
27:01on the things we talked about in the
27:03show notes at design google slash
27:05podcasts this episode was recorded and
27:09edited by brian gordon and produced by
27:11barbara Eldridge the artwork you see for
27:14each episode is created by Skip Hirsch
27:16subscribe to the show on Google Play
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27:25it really helps new listeners to find
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27:28doing alright that is it from us here at
27:31the Google method podcast thank you for
