00:02AIDAN SIMPSON: Welcome
to the "Method" podcast.
00:04I'm Aidan Simpson,
and this is where
00:06we talk to designers at
Google about work, life,
00:09and the future of design.
00:10Today's episode is with Jay
Wong, one of the UX designers
00:14working on Project Fi, Google's
wireless data and phone
00:17Jay and I talk about the design
decisions behind Project Fi,
00:20working as a designer with
a computer science degree,
00:23and much, much more.
00:25Hope you enjoy this episode
of the "Method" podcast.
00:30I've been on the Project Fi
team since January this year.
00:35And I've been at Google
for four years in total.
00:37AIDAN SIMPSON: What drew you
to working on Project Fi?
00:41JAY WONG: I was really drawn
to Project Fi because up until
00:43that point, I'd worked on
G+ and Hangouts and Photos.
00:46And I think a lot of the
objective of those apps
00:49are to kind of keep you in
the app and stay in the app.
00:52And a lot of the
interaction is kind of
00:56contained to the app itself.
00:58But Project Fi is a very
interesting project,
01:00because it's actually more
service design, rather than
01:03So you sort of have
control-- we have control
01:05over the entire lifecycle,
like the marketing
01:07website, the checkout process,
the activation process,
01:11the packaging of the Sim
cards and the phones when
01:14AIDAN SIMPSON: So it's
a larger design project
01:16with more depth and breadth.
01:18JAY WONG: Yeah, there's
just a lot of complexity.
01:21You're thinking
about every endpoint.
01:23And it's much bigger
than just UX design,
01:27from an app point of view.
01:29AIDAN SIMPSON: And
how has your process
01:30changed because of that?
01:32JAY WONG: I think you need
to have a much wider view,
01:35a higher, a bigger bird's-eye
view on what's happening.
01:38And you need to make
sure you're always
01:40checking in at different points,
because certain things don't
01:45You can't have
complete consistency.
01:47If you think about a UI, where
you always have the same UI
01:51elements, it's not
exactly the same,
01:53because there are so many
different ways of interacting
01:56And I think in those cases,
because it's a service,
02:00you need to have a much more
clearer idea of, for example,
02:03the brand, or the tone,
or your principles,
02:06at a very high and
more abstract level.
02:08We always want to be
helpful, witty, confident.
02:13And I don't think that's
as important when you're
02:15thinking about just an app.
02:18But when you're thinking
about a service with much more
02:21different kinds of
design in the process,
02:24it's very helpful to have an
overarching, overall feeling
02:28that you want to give the user.
02:30AIDAN SIMPSON:
What is the hardest
02:32problem you think you're
working on across all of that?
02:35JAY WONG: Oh, there are so many!
02:39I think that there's
a lot of complexity.
02:42There are so many
dimensions of states.
02:45And also, on Project Fi, there's
also lots of different users.
02:48So for example, we
have a group plan.
02:52And it's not just
how you use this app,
02:54but it's you controlling
everyone else, everyone else
02:57and what they see, and how you
all interact with each other.
03:00There are multiple
flows that kind of
03:02require multiple
handshakes, basically,
03:05in order to get anything done.
03:06And that is really,
really complex,
03:09because you want your flows
to be very simple and fast.
03:12But ultimately, there are
some necessary time stops.
03:18Just to put it in
perspective, we
03:19have a checkout process
that's 11 screens in total.
03:23But the set of designs for that
are over 85 different screens,
03:27because there can be 85
different outcomes, almost.
03:32It needs to seem so easy
and so simple, and it does.
03:36When people use our product,
we get really good customer
03:40satisfaction, a lot of
feedback saying it's
03:41very simple and very intuitive.
03:43But honestly, behind
the scenes, it
03:45is so complex, what's happening,
the decisions that you're
03:48making affecting the UI.
03:52And the amount of thought that's
gone into hiding all of those
04:02there's a lot of time
that's gone into it.
04:04AIDAN SIMPSON:
When did you first
04:05realize you could be a designer?
04:08JAY WONG: Well, I'm pretty sure
that I have websites and blogs
04:12from when I'm 12 or
11 where I'm just
04:14talking about how I want to
quit school and become a website
04:19Legitimately, they
still exist online.
04:21Never telling anyone the URL.
04:25Did you have a
creative upbringing,
04:27or were your parents into
liberal arts, creative arts?
04:31JAY WONG: Not at all.
04:33The real story is that--
04:35I remember this so clearly.
04:36I was maybe eight,
seven or eight.
04:38And I went to my friend's house.
04:40And she was older, and
she was, like, look!
04:43There's this really cool
game called Neopets.
04:45And I was like, Neopets?
04:47And I wanted to make all this
money in my Neopets store,
04:50and I had this Neopet guild.
04:52I wanted people to
join it, and realized
04:54that in order to do so, I
needed my store to stand out.
04:59And in order to stand out, I
needed to learn all this HTML
05:02and CSS to make
it all look good.
05:05And then I kind of
very quickly realized
05:07that actually, the part I
liked most was not really
05:09anything to do with the
Neopets, but was just using code
05:13to make these beautiful things.
05:17And I learned this completely
on my own, with no help at all.
05:24And in fact, I remember
not realizing--
05:26this is a really stupid story,
but I would copy and paste
05:31the URL, the address of a local
file, locally, into my code.
05:37And when I would look
at it on my computer,
05:39it would grab an image and
it would look just fine.
05:42But then I would go into
my brother's computer,
05:44or go to my friend's house,
and go, look at my website!
05:46And then I would just
get the image error links
05:51And it took me a while--
05:53I was nine or
something at the time--
05:55to realize that actually there's
a completely different concept
05:58between local addresses
and actual uploaded images
06:07So I kind of found
my love of web design
06:11kind of from there,
and coding from there,
06:13and then sort of started making
my own websites, my own blogs,
06:17my own templates,
forums and stuff,
06:20and then never looked back.
06:23AIDAN SIMPSON: And that kind
of led you into web design,
06:28I think it's funny, because
I started with web design
06:30first, when I was super-young,
and I loved technology.
06:33But then I kind of-- as I got
a bit older in high school,
06:36I was then more interested
in photography and film
06:41I wanted to start a
magazine and stuff.
06:44And then I kind of
looped all the way around
06:47and I went to design school for
a year, and then was like, OK,
06:50actually I don't find print
that compelling anymore,
06:54and I kind of
really miss coding,
06:58which is why I went
back and then decided
07:00to pick up a second--
07:02so I basically decided
to take a second major.
07:05So I did a double degree in
design and computer science.
07:09And yeah, so I kind of did
both, because it was weird,
07:13because I always knew I wanted
to make apps or make websites.
07:15But you go to computer science--
07:17you go and study
computer science,
07:19and it's very
technical, and it's
07:20all algorithm-based and data
structures, which I loved,
07:23but there isn't this visceral
feeling from seeing something
07:29visually that you create.
07:30And then I felt
like graphic design
07:31is so boring, because
it's so static,
07:33and there's no fluidity.
07:35Or, there's much
less problem solving.
07:38AIDAN SIMPSON: I
know what you mean.
07:40The first time I
built a website,
07:41and I could interact with
the pages and change pages,
07:45I was like, I was
so hooked after off
07:46of that point of view.
07:47Like, actually,
whereas all the print
07:49design I'd ever done when I was
studying before, same feeling.
07:54JAY WONG: Yeah, exactly.
07:55It's just not as engaging.
07:56And when you really
create something in code,
07:59and you see it in
real life, it's
08:01just like, there's literally
no other rush in the world
08:05like that creation aspect.
08:09And it's just not the same.
08:11Making a mock, it's
going to get you so far,
08:15and it's nice to see.
08:16But it's just, seeing it, and
interacting with something,
08:19and [? knotting ?] out a really
difficult design problem, a UX
08:23problem, is just so satisfying.
08:25AIDAN SIMPSON: You
integrate prototyping a lot
08:29What benefits have
you found from that?
08:32JAY WONG: I think prototyping
has lots of different benefits.
08:36I think there are many
interactions, especially
08:38in this day and age, where
there's a lot of motion
08:40and a lot of feeling that
you're trying to get,
08:42that you literally can't
capture in static images.
08:46And sometimes I also think it
can be quicker to prototype
08:49than to make 50 mocks
of the same thing
08:51with slightly different
bounds, if that makes sense.
08:54AIDAN SIMPSON: Do you
think that's because you
08:55have a background in
coding, whereas if you
08:57didn't have the
background in coding,
08:58it would still be quicker?
09:01JAY WONG: I mean,
there's always a line,
09:03there's always a toss-up,
because of course there
09:05are some things you get for
free with coding, which is being
09:09able to change one
property and change them
09:11all, versus having to
do that same thing.
09:13And there's a couple
of things in Sketch,
09:15like symbols, that kind
of help you get there.
09:17But it's definitely not as
fluid as it is today with code,
09:22But, I mean, certainly, yes.
09:23I think prototyping
is a lot easier
09:25for me because of my background,
and it comes more naturally
09:28to me, and that's how I think.
09:30But I think even a
designer who does not
09:32have that strong a coding
experience, learning to code,
09:36at the very least, it forces
you to get better as a designer,
09:39because it's
forcing you to think
09:41of everything as a system.
09:44Every time you break
a system, now it's
09:47a more conscious
decision of, yes, I
09:49think this needs
to be different,
09:51instead of, I think sometimes
if you just always approach it
09:54from just a visual
design, you're
09:56much more likely
to bend your rules,
09:58or kind of do something that's a
little inconsistent, because it
10:01looks a little better
in this instance,
10:03when sometimes I think
that's not practical.
10:06That's not how it gets
built. And yeah, it's
10:11helping kind of
regulate your design,
10:13to make sure it's
working consistently.
10:17AIDAN SIMPSON: Yeah, I
think that's a great point.
10:19And at a company like Google,
which is engineering-driven,
10:22have you found that
it's really helped
10:23you sell your ideas to other
stakeholders in your team?
10:27JAY WONG: Absolutely.
10:28I honestly think that it's
maybe one of the biggest
10:30factors and biggest strengths
that I've had at Google
10:33and helped me in my career.
10:34I'm very close with
every engineering
10:37team I've ever worked with.
10:39In my first year at Google, I
was actually contributing code
10:41to the code base,
just because it
10:45was just easier for me to submit
polished changes than work
10:48with someone to do it.
10:50I've done that less now,
because as I've gotten older,
10:53I've realized I don't think
it's as valuable, a valuable use
10:57of a designer's time,
because there's just
10:59so much with Google
infrastructure
11:01that it just becomes a
pain to keep track of.
11:05But having said that,
I regularly sit down
11:07and pair-program
with my engineers
11:09to pair-polish things.
11:12And I think that
my understanding
11:14of coding and my
technical reasoning
11:19means that one, my designs
are always much more real.
11:24I'm thinking about
feasibility as I design.
11:27But two, I can kind of
communicate with them
11:29and describe what I want.
11:30And actually, often,
they'll be like, oh, I
11:32don't think this is possible.
11:33And then I'll actually just
write them a code snippet
11:36that they'll use to do it.
11:39And I think that's because
at Google, there's actually,
11:42for better or worse--
11:45we don't hire
front-end engineers
11:47to be front-end engineers.
11:48We don't hire them
because they're
11:50great at building visual things.
11:54And so often, a lot
of the team, they'll
11:56be kind of back-end engineers,
or very technical engineers,
11:58who have just been put on a team
that happens to be implementing
12:01something, scripting something.
12:05And so they might not know some
of the really cool CSS things
12:10that they can do, and
that I can help them with.
12:15AIDAN SIMPSON: Do you feel like
it raises the level of trust
12:18within your team, as well?
12:20Consistently, throughout
all the different teams
12:23I've worked with,
they've always--
12:25I've always gotten great
feedback from my engineers,
12:28saying that it's a great skill.
12:31It's a great-- they are much
more willing to trust my design
12:34decision, because
they know that I've
12:35thought about how
much extra work what
12:38it is I'm asking of
them is, and I've
12:40decided that this is worth
it, compared to, say,
12:44maybe a designer who may be
less technical, and everything
12:48they show is a little
bit more blue-sky,
12:50and now it's hard for them
to identify what's worth it,
12:53if that makes sense.
12:54AIDAN SIMPSON: Changing
topic a little bit,
12:56you recently gave a talk
at UXU on designer tools.
13:01What drove you to want
to give that talk?
13:04JAY WONG: So firstly,
I love to teach.
13:06I taught in high school.
13:07I taught in university.
13:10I teach part-time at GA.
13:13AIDAN SIMPSON: Let's dig
into that a little bit more.
13:15Why do you love to teach?
13:18JAY WONG: I love teaching
because there's--
13:20well, first, I guess I--
earlier this conversation,
13:22I said that there's nothing
greater in this world
13:25than writing code and seeing it.
13:27But I guess either an
equal or very close second
13:31feeling is working with
someone, and at the beginning
13:35of time with them, they
can't do something,
13:37and then seeing them
be able to do something
13:40when they walk out of the room.
13:42So even something
as simple as, I
13:44teach a nine-hour, an
eight-hour introduction
13:48to coding to
non-engineers at Google.
13:50And at the beginning of the
day, they often don't even
13:54know how the internet works.
13:55And by the end of the day, I
will fully build and design
13:59a resume with them, and they'll
actually publish it to the web,
14:04to the internet, and have
a URL they can show people.
14:08AIDAN SIMPSON: Very cool.
14:09JAY WONG: And I
guess, in a way, it's
14:11almost me trying to share
that joy of creation
14:15with more people, and show
them that it's not that hard.
14:19You can do it too,
if you want to.
14:22So that's one reason, is I
love teaching for that reason,
14:25fundamentally, but also
because I'm a designer.
14:29But I'm also an
engineer at heart,
14:31and efficiency is
my favorite thing.
14:34I cannot stand watching--
14:37it's really hard for me to
watch another designer work,
14:40if they're being really slow
and being really inefficient,
14:42because I just want to be like,
why aren't you using shortcuts?
14:45Why aren't you
doing these things?
14:47Why are you wasting
your time red-lining
14:49for days, when you could
just use something else,
14:51and it'll just do it for you?
14:55That's why I taught the
class, is because I just
14:58think that the faster
you are at the tool,
15:03and the quicker you are at
doing things that are boring,
15:06the more time you can spend
thinking about real design
15:09problems, and actually
innovating and solving
15:12the things that the
computer can't solve.
15:15AIDAN SIMPSON: So you
teach at General Assembly?
15:17And are there any other classes
that you've taught that you've
15:20got real value from?
15:21JAY WONG: Yeah, so I
teach General Assembly.
15:24I teach Google Computer
Science Summer Institute,
15:27which is a computer science
program for rising--
15:32basically seniors that
have just graduated,
15:35going into computer science from
underrepresented backgrounds,
15:39so racial minorities
and gender minorities
15:41and low socioeconomic
backgrounds.
15:44I love teaching that
because one, it really
15:47means a lot to them.
15:48It's really awesome
to see people
15:50that age also grow in
learning the first time
15:53and feeling empowered.
15:54And I also learn a
lot from them as well,
15:57about what their lives
are like and what
16:00their perspectives are like.
16:01So I think it's very
much a two-way street.
16:04And I often think
to myself how lucky
16:07it was that I just,
by some random chance,
16:10fell into this Neopets thing,
and how much of an impact
16:13it had on my life,
that I literally
16:15had nobody to show me that.
16:18And it's just almost
a coincidence.
16:19If I hadn't met
that person, maybe I
16:22would be doing something
completely different
16:23that I wouldn't enjoy.
16:25AIDAN SIMPSON: The
little bit of teaching
16:26that I've done, it bolsters
your confidence a little bit,
16:29when you can realize
you can teach
16:31somebody something, and from
start to finish like you do.
16:35JAY WONG: Absolutely.
16:37I stand by the fact that
teaching has only made me
16:40a lot better,
because I think there
16:42are skills you have innately,
and you just learn to do them.
16:45But forcing yourself to
re-explain it to someone else,
16:48it almost forces you to think
about it more concretely,
16:51and know it, know
how to talk about it.
16:56And the active explaining
to someone else
16:58makes you actually internalize
it, and give logic and reason
17:02to maybe something that
was a little bit more
17:04soft, or innate, originally.
17:08And I think that's
the true test.
17:10That's basically what I
did through university.
17:12I would teach a lot of the
university classes I was doing.
17:14I taught HCI at university.
17:18And teaching
university students is
17:21kind of what forced
me to be like,
17:23OK, make sure I got to actually
know what I'm doing right now,
17:25or what I'm talking about,
because their university
17:29results kind of depend on it.
17:31AIDAN SIMPSON: Are
there any classes
17:32that you wish were offered
at Google, in the Grow
17:38I wish that efficiency,
like tool efficiency,
17:40was taught a little bit more.
17:42I think Sketch, that
class does not exist.
17:47So I wish that was
being taught more.
17:49I wish that maybe
we had a few more--
17:54actually, this is
not exactly relevant.
17:56AIDAN SIMPSON: Go for it.
17:58JAY WONG: Well, I just think
that Google has so many tools
18:01that they've built
for engineers,
18:03to make the engineering process
better and more efficient.
18:07And the same has not
happened for designers.
18:10So designers are still
spending a lot of time
18:14on things that
are not valuable--
18:18AIDAN SIMPSON: Can
you give an example?
18:19JAY WONG: --but necessary.
18:20I mean, red lines is the
biggest number-one thing.
18:23Or even things like, we
don't have consistency
18:26in how we build our files.
18:28Each team probably
has their own system.
18:30But I'm pretty proud, because
I think my team, actually,
18:34our files are really clean.
18:36And they're very well-made.
18:38And it's really easy to jump in,
and they're like puzzle pieces,
18:40because I try to set a very
strict kind of-- not strict.
18:46That sounds limiting.
18:47But I'm pretty careful
about making sure
18:52we have bounding
boxes on things,
18:54and I'm componentizing
symbols, and that it's modular,
18:59the way that an engineer would
build an app to be modular.
19:03But sometimes, a
lot of the time I
19:06think that designers
who don't have
19:08that discipline
in their team, it
19:11means that maybe it's quicker
at the very beginning,
19:13but because you didn't put
time at the very beginning
19:16to make things neat,
at the end of the day,
19:20it becomes exponentially harder
to redline something that
19:23hasn't been organized properly,
or to duplicate and create
19:32screens that are kind of like
offshoots, or the same screen
19:35but with a different scenario.
19:37It becomes a lot harder,
because it's not neat,
19:39and it's not well-put-together.
19:44So I think more teaching about
process and optimizing design.
19:50AIDAN SIMPSON: Being
efficient with the tools.
19:52JAY WONG: Yeah, being
efficient with the tools.
19:54AIDAN SIMPSON: I'm going
to ask you a few questions,
19:56just to wrap it up a little bit.
19:57What are you most excited
about, going forward?
20:00JAY WONG: I mean, I guess
because I'm in design mode,
20:02so I'm just thinking
about design stuff.
20:04But as I said, I'm most
excited about seeing
20:07where the tools
go, and seeing how
20:09that merges and forms
together to get more,
20:15as I said, unified,
the way the engineers
20:18think and the way
the designers think.
20:20I'm also really excited about--
20:23well, this is kind of
exciting and scary,
20:24but at the same
time, which is, what
20:27is the role of a UX
designer going to be
20:29in five years, or 10 years?
20:30Because it changes so
fast, and in a way,
20:35it's such a new profession.
20:37But at the same time,
technology moves and changes
20:39so fast that who knows
if it's still going
20:43to be as relevant anymore?
20:46But I think there's always going
to be room for problem-solving,
20:51like problem-solving the
layer of how humans interact
20:54But it might just be different.
20:56I'm curious to see
how VR takes off,
20:58and how a UX designer--
what are the new UX
21:01paradigms for virtual reality?
21:03And I think we're still
very far away from that
21:05being super-relevant right now.
21:09But that's not to say that--
21:11AIDAN SIMPSON: It's
not far off, though.
21:13JAY WONG: Yeah, it's
not that far off.
21:14And there are so many
established paradigms
21:18for the screen that
it's almost like--
21:21it's not easy, anymore.
21:22That's definitely
not the right word.
21:24But it is a lot more
directed, in a way.
21:29There's a lot you can
kind of pull from,
21:31and you can get
inspiration from.
21:34But as we shift
to this VR thing,
21:37it's going to be
completely different.
21:39And it's almost going to be
a land grab, like the way
21:42that when the
iPhone came out, it
21:43was such an exciting
time for UX design,
21:45because there was a
land grab for designing
21:49And I remember
even Apple would--
21:52there were the famous,
cool, well-designed apps.
21:55And even Apple would take
the interactions that
21:58were coming up in cool apps and
put it into their own operating
22:02system, like Twitter's
swipe down to refresh.
22:06It's kind of amazing
to have designed
22:08that pattern, and seeing
that in so many other places.
22:11And I think that's going
to happen again for VR.
22:15And not just VR, but as we
move to more external screens,
22:19and not just TV OSes, but--
22:21AIDAN SIMPSON:
Multiple touchscreens.
22:23JAY WONG: Multiple
touchscreens that
22:25can be used by multiple
people at the same time,
22:28There's so many
interesting ways that,
22:30as we move into the future
and those screens become more
22:33prolific, new patterns,
again, for that.
22:36AIDAN SIMPSON: I think that's
a good place to leave it.
22:39AIDAN SIMPSON: Yeah.
22:40Thanks so much for your time.
22:41JAY WONG: Thank you.
22:45AIDAN SIMPSON: All righty.
22:46Just a final word from
us at Google Design.
22:48Did you know you can sign
up for Google Design's
22:50quarterly newsletter, covering
the latest and greatest design
22:53stories from Google and beyond?
22:55All you have to do is go to
design.google.com/newsletter,
22:59put in your details, and receive
all this goodness straight
23:03One of my favorite
parts is actually
23:05the "Five Things to
Love Right Now" section.
23:07This is a curated list
of cool things, chosen
23:09by people at Google, and I
always learn something new.
