Founder Lessons with The Jupiter and Tensor Teams

Good Game Podcast2024-02-21

508 views|6 months ago

💫 Short Summary

In the crypto startup space, being able to adapt and innovate is crucial as new trends and narratives emerge. The use of points and rewards, the introduction of new standards in the NFT space, and the importance of having a focused narrative for products are key factors to consider. Startups need to be mindful of the evolving landscape and be ready to explore new ideas to stay ahead in the market.The video discusses the importance of finding a differentiated approach as a startup in the crypto space, using the example of inscriptions on Solana. The guests also emphasize the need to constantly innovate and listen to user feedback. Community engagement and the potential of NFTs beyond JPEG trading are also explored. Additionally, the video touches on the value of having a critical mass of markets on Solana and the potential for startups to thrive in the crypto space.The video discusses the potential for Solana to have a significant advantage in the next couple of years due to its critical mass of users and strong communities. However, Ethereum still has more liquidity and institutional mind share, posing a challenge for Solana to overcome. The conversation also touches on the importance of research and culture in blockchain development and the potential for collaboration between Ethereum and Solana. The guests emphasize the need for an open mindset and recognize the value of each platform in the evolving blockchain industry.Anatoly Yakovenko and Sam Bankman-Fried discuss the launch of BLAST by UBLUR, highlighting the founder's desire to build more advanced primitives and the opportunity to vertically integrate and build on the entire stack to create an "Apple-esque" experience. They also touch on the future of Tenzr and Jupiter, focusing on bringing more real-world assets onto the chain and making it easier to transact between chains.

✨ Highlights

📊 Transcript

✦

In the crypto industry, startups need to constantly innovate and not rely on traditional narratives.

00:00

In crypto, there is a 24/7 market, and startups need to be constantly aware of new trends and not get complacent.

Points and rewards should not be a focus for startups before they have achieved product-market fit.

The flexibility of points allows for experimentation and modification based on user behavior.

The speaker believes that the points meta will not last for more than 2 years, and suggests focusing on more innovative approaches such as NFTs.

The key to success is to have a single narrative for the product and company.

Building a strong and competent team is essential for the success of a startup.

✦

The discussion focuses on the evolving nature of crypto incentives, the introduction of new standards in the NFT space, and the importance of catering to the long tail of user needs.

05:01

Points meta in crypto is driven by regulatory arbitrage and is seen as a way to gamify the experience and attract new users.

The guest believes that points may not be as relevant in the next 2 years and suggests focusing on more innovative approaches such as NFTs.

The importance of keeping narratives clean and simple for founders, and the value of catering to the long tail of user needs.

Two new standards, ERC 404 and SPL 22, have been introduced, blending the defi and nft communities and allowing for more complex and novel products to be built.

The speaker emphasizes the importance of simplicity in markets, but also sees potential for interesting new use cases and discoveries in the future.

✦

In the rapidly evolving crypto industry, new opportunities and challenges constantly emerge, and successful founders need to be adaptable and have a clear, focused narrative for their products.

10:00

The guest speakers emphasize the importance of having a strong, synergistic narrative and building products that cater to user interests.

The guest mentions the failure of SushiSwap to capitalize on its early success due to a lack of focus and too much decentralization.

The speakers believe that in the crypto space, there is always room for innovation, but the focus should be on building a good product and providing excellent customer service.

The importance of feedback and learning from individual users is highlighted, with the speakers emphasizing the value of having a small number of dedicated users.

✦

The speaker talks about the importance of finding a differentiated and unique approach as a startup, using the example of inscriptions on Solana.

00:00

In the crypto space, it's crucial for startups to find something that sets them apart from incumbents.

Solana encountered the need to differentiate with NFTs and inscriptions.

The idea of inscriptions on Solana was necessary to avoid disruption by other startups.

✦

The guest discusses the importance of feedback in building products and the focus on the Salana ecosystem.

05:42

Feedback is crucial for building products and creating better versions.

The guest emphasizes the significance of focusing on the Salana ecosystem and its potential for growth.

✦

The conversation shifts to the founding of Flex, a tool to simplify DeFi on Solana, and the importance of user feedback in its development.

11:40

Flex was born out of user feedback and the need to make DeFi easier and less time consuming on Solana.

Early feedback for Flex was obtained by reaching out to different communities, such as NFT groups and trading groups.

The advice given to founders is to focus on living a balanced life and taking care of oneself, as building a startup requires long-term commitment.

✦

The section discusses the importance of user feedback in the growth of Flex and the broader perspective of NFTs and communities.

17:23

User feedback is crucial for the growth of Flex and has helped the product to be more focused and better.

Flex Lend is an aggregator for lending across all of Solana DeFi, allowing users to earn good rates on USDC and stable coins.

The guest believes that NFTs are going to become more diversified, with each community reflecting the founder's values.

NFTs have the potential to tokenize real-world assets and trade on blockchain platforms like Tensor.

✦

The speaker talks about the value of having a critical mass of markets on Solana and the potential for nftd Founders and builders within the DG God's community.

23:12

Having a critical mass of markets on Solana is essential for building a strong ecosystem.

The speaker mentions the potential of nftd Founders and builders within the DG God's community and emphasizes the importance of focusing on the community.

The guest expresses his admiration for the Frank Community and suggests being less harsh on Founders in general.

✦

Daniel discusses how Flexin was built based on user feedback and the importance of living a balanced life as a founder. He also mentions the value proposition of Flexin and its usage.

29:00

Flexin was built based on user feedback and has grown faster than Lulo

Living a balanced life is important for founders

Flexin's value proposition is to earn good rates on USDC and stable coins without spending hours optimizing lending

Flexin has seen positive feedback and organic usage, with users feeling like they're solving an issue

✦

The speakers discuss the nft space and the importance of community and focus on the crypto world.

34:16

The speaker is impressed by the Frank Community and believes people should be less harsh on founders in general.

NFTs are expected to become more diversified and each community will reflect the founder's values.

The nft space is going to become a mirror of the founder in some way.

NFTs can be used for many things, including tokenizing real-world assets.

✦

The speaker explores the potential of NFTs beyond JPEG trading, suggesting that NFTs could represent real-world assets that are non-fungible by nature.

40:02

NFTs could be used to tokenize and financialize real-world items

Luxury watches are already being tokenized as NFTs on Ethereum, with people borrowing money off the watches as collateral

The idea of combining real-world assets on chain is gaining traction and could be the future of NFTs

✦

The speaker discusses the idea of incentivizing people to list on chain and the importance of having a critical mass of tokens and markets in remittance and other use cases.

46:00

The speaker wants to move towards having a critical mass of tokens and markets in remittance and other use cases on one network.

There is power in having all these things on one network.

It's almost as if every startup that builds in any sector in the space should tokenize.

The speaker does not feel threatened by Apes and Suelana, believing that having a critical mass of markets on Suelana is essential.

✦

The conversation focuses on the strengths of Solana and the potential challenges and advantages it has compared to other chains, such as Ethereum.

00:01

Solana is seen to have a significant advantage in user adoption and community strength in terms of mem coin and art from mint NFTs.

Ethereum is acknowledged for its liquidity and mind share with more mature institutional players.

The panel believes Ethereum would be a challenging competitor for Solana to beat, citing liquidity, developer mode, and the mission-driven nature of Ethereum developers as factors.

✦

The implementation of rollups by Builders is changing the landscape and providing a way to compete with Ethereum.

08:59

Builders are starting to use mini rollups or app rollups and pay for the customer fees, offering a similar experience to Ethereum.

The speaker loves Ethereum and believes there is room for both Ethereum and Solana in the market.

Solana is focused on onboarding new use cases and users, with the introduction of token extensions and other features.

The speaker sees Ethereum as more decentralized in terms of research, while Solana is more engineering driven.

✦

The guest discusses the potential impact of Ethereum's merge and the importance of execution and delivery in the crypto space.

21:59

The potential impact of Ethereum's merge is compared to the introduction of the iPhone and its effect on the mobile industry.

The guest emphasizes the importance of execution and delivery, suggesting that Ethereum needs to execute well on the merge for it to have a significant impact.

They also discuss the challenges and opportunities for other chains, such as Solana, in providing a competitive alternative to Ethereum.

The guest mentions that Ethereum's infrastructure is like a moving train, and it's challenging for other chains to compete, but there are still opportunities for innovation and growth.

✦

The speakers discuss the potential collaboration between Ethereum and Solana, the upcoming upgrades in Solana, and the impact of TPS (transactions per second) on the blockchain ecosystem.

36:57

There is a possibility of collaboration between Ethereum and Solana in the future.

Solana's upcoming upgrade, Fire Dancer, is expected to significantly increase TPS, but real-world use cases will determine its practicality.

Tokenization and data management are crucial factors for the scalability and efficiency of the blockchain ecosystem.

Ethereum's merge and Solana's ability to attract developers are also important aspects to consider in the evolving blockchain landscape.

✦

The section discusses the potential benefits and challenges of localized fee markets and the practical implementation of parallelization in blockchain technology.

44:17

Localized fee markets and parallelization are important for the scalability of blockchain technology.

The practical limitations and challenges of implementing parallelization in blockchain systems are acknowledged.

The app chain model is seen as a potential solution to bridge the gap between the current state and the ideal model of localized fee markets.

✦

The guest discusses the implementation of mini rollups and app rollups to compete with Solana, and the ability to pay for customer fees.

53:26

The guest loves Ethereum and sees potential for both Ethereum and Solana in the market.

Ethereum is more decentralized in its research, while Solana is more engineering driven.

The guest believes that the real benefit is around diversity and how different chains will work together in practice.

The guest mentions a potential concern about validators moving to another client if it offers higher transaction fees.

✦

The speakers discuss the challenges and issues faced by Polkadot and Cardano in attracting and retaining developers, and the potential for blockchain tribalism to continue in the future.

01:04:04

Polkadot and Cardano have faced challenges in attracting and retaining developers, leading to a decrease in their popularity among blockchain projects.

The speakers believe that as long as there are tokens, blockchain tribalism will continue to exist and may even intensify in the future.

They also mention the importance of having an open mindset and recognizing the value of different blockchain projects.

✦

The team at Solana believe that the decision to focus on building on Solana is driven by the unexplored design space and the deep connection in the community ecosystem.

01:14:32

The team wants to provide deep value, which they believe is achievable by being embedded in the Solana ecosystem.

They are open to the possibility of exploring new chains in the future, but currently, Solana offers a vast and unexplored design space.

The founder of UBLUR launched BLAST to solve the problem of slow Ethereum speed and saw an opportunity to build on the entire stack.

There is a focus on creating a platform where assets can be listed on chain, bringing liquidity and solving the paperwork and KYC issues in traditional finance.

✦

Building a startup in the crypto space involves multiple challenges, including being a public speaker, managing community relations, and dealing with regulations.

01:18:41

In the crypto space, startups face additional challenges such as being a public persona, managing community relations, and dealing with regulatory and legal aspects.

Some founders have left crypto for AI, creating an opportunity for those who stay as there is less competition and a higher upside due to the hyper-financialized and hyperconnected nature of crypto.

The future of Tenzr involves bringing more real-world assets onto the chain, such as stocks, and focusing on making it easier to transact between chains.

✦

The video discusses the potential of making NASDAQ open to the entire world through blockchain technology, particularly focusing on the shortage of US dollars in Africa and the role of stablecoins.

01:24:13

Blockchain technology enables making NASDAQ open to the entire world.

There is a massive shortage of US dollars in Africa, and stablecoins could play a significant role in addressing this issue.

The speaker mentions the possibility of a more pro-crypto stance from the SEC if Trump becomes president again.

The future of Tenzr is to become a platform for various assets, including non-fungible tokens (NFTs) and real-world assets, by financializing the world on Solana.

✦

The section discusses the potential of bringing more assets and use cases onto one chain, making traditional companies list on Jupiter, and the future plans for Jupiter, including making it easier to transact between chains.

01:29:11

The focus is on bringing as many market assets and use cases on one chain as possible.

The goal is to make it attractive for traditional companies to list on Jupiter.

The future plans for Jupiter include making it easier to transact between chains and solving the paperwork and KYC requirements in traditional finance.

The speaker believes that people in Nigeria or other countries could benefit from the stock exchange, not just famous companies in the West.

The potential of blockchain technology to shape how assets are listed and traded is also discussed in the section.

00:00 welcome to Good Game your no BS insights

00:02 for crypto

00:04[Music]

00:06 Founders people in crypto are trading

00:09 based on a single narrative or a couple

00:10 of narratives we had to jump on

00:13 inscriptions otherwise we might have

00:15 faced disruption by some other startup

00:17 who jumped on it quicker than us I think

00:19 basically in crypto more so than in web

00:21 2 you can never rest on your laurels you

00:24 really need to like how paranoid are you

00:26 guys like more paranoid that I would

00:28 like to be yeah yeah it's easier to say

00:31 what I don't lose sleepover at this

00:34 point but your girlfriend like that yeah

00:38 I

00:39 guess I mean it's it's a real problem

00:42 right like you trying to go on Dat or

00:43 something where trying to look at a girl

00:45 but think nft is like

00:47 m a problem man yeah yeah I mean we do

00:50 live in a 24/7 Market 247 247 I wake up

00:54 crypto I sleep crypto looking for your

00:57 next startup idea in crypto check out

00:59 our request for startups list and get

01:00 inspired at alliance.

01:02 XYZ

01:04 ideas all right welcome to good game

01:06 today uh it's Valentine's Day I feel

01:10 like we're spending some quality time

01:11 together here very cozy over here you

01:14 guys over

01:15 there for this but today's a special

01:18 episode because we have both the tenzer

01:21 team and uh meow from Jupiter they came

01:24 to speak to our Founders within the

01:26 alliance cohort we're running our

01:27 program here in New York and we figured

01:30 why not run a quick podcast session talk

01:32 about what's happening on salana there's

01:35 a I I would say many narratives are a

01:38 running place but i' I'd love to kind of

01:40 touch on one uh which is points um it

01:44 seems like people are starting

01:46 to uh dislike points or they're just

01:49 getting overwhelmed with points you know

01:51 you you start to see startups uh that

01:54 don't even have product Market fit run

01:55 points thinking that they can get their

01:56 next 10 to, users but obviously that's

01:59 not the case case having that you've

02:01 both ran points programs so I guess you

02:04 know what are your thoughts on on the

02:06 points meta now are you bullish bearish

02:08 uh where do you see it going I think

02:11 points like everything in life has its

02:12 place and yes I know that's very deep uh

02:17 very okay but in all seriousness I think

02:20 if you're pre-product Market fit and the

02:23 way you find that out is that you don't

02:26 have even a small number of users that

02:28 show up to your product daily uh and

02:30 repeatedly that's really important I

02:32 think if you're before product Market

02:33 fit you shouldn't be thinking about

02:35 rewards at all whether that's points or

02:37 something else once you hit product

02:39 Market Fit Rewards is just a way for you

02:41 to take your product for from like a

02:44 tiny minority of users that discovered

02:46 it by themselves to a larger kind of

02:49 subset of users that are almost like

02:51 incentivized to try it but there better

02:54 be a good product underneath for them to

02:55 stick around because if there's no

02:57 product then they're just going to come

02:58 and go and so I think like the point of

03:01 the points is to not think about the

03:02 points too much it's about building the

03:05 product and then using rewards to to

03:06 drive users to it another like practical

03:09 consideration of points is that there's

03:12 a lot of flexibility in what you can do

03:14 with them as in like once you let's say

03:16 give someone points um you at least have

03:20 some like way to modify it as you sort

03:22 of experiment with your Rewards program

03:25 you know maybe you notice that a lot of

03:27 people are doing the wrong things or

03:29 doing tended things that didn't want to

03:32 induce uh on your product right and it

03:35 gives you the flexibility to change it

03:37 as you go at least for us right like we

03:39 had multiple seasons and we basically

03:41 had to revamp the entire point system

03:44 every single season just because we saw

03:46 some of like the negative externalities

03:48 of the way that we formulated the

03:50 initial points formula that we learned

03:52 from and adapted in subsequent seasons

03:55 and that's like a very powerful

03:57 optionality you you get as a Founder for

03:59 using points as opposed to tokens right

04:01 because tokens are much harder to change

04:03 in terms of token economics it's almost

04:05 like a benefit that they're

04:06 non-transferable right yeah yeah and you

04:09 can't get

04:10 rugged exactly yeah I mean I feel like

04:13 tokens are points are interesting right

04:14 because um tokens are in some sense very

04:18 definitive right it's like once the

04:19 tokens out there it's out there right

04:21 you know whereas for points I you I

04:23 mentioned earlier there are many ways

04:24 can actually change it adapt it yeah um

04:26 I guess from a user point of view um the

04:29 f becomes like okay I do all these

04:31 things but I don't know how how much I'm

04:32 getting right and actually I mean there

04:34 many to go about it right it's like you

04:36 can have a point system or you can have

04:37 a point system that denote that denotes

04:39 a certain percentage in the protocol

04:41 right you know or certain point system

04:42 of a certain end time right so I feel

04:44 like um a big part of it is like how do

04:47 you manage ATT attention right because

04:49 if you if you don't promise anything

04:51 right I think of two extremes right one

04:52 extrem is that okay you don't know how

04:53 much you're getting you don't know what

04:54 it's ending you don't know it's a cap

04:56 right the the other the other version is

04:58 okay you know exactly much you're

05:00 getting right so one to one point go to

05:02 one token almost right so you know as so

05:04 I feel like um I feel like there's no

05:06 good answer here but I think

05:09 communication yeah I I feel like the the

05:11 main thing is that um combined to what

05:13 he was saying right El was saying is

05:15 that I think can you communicate early

05:17 on and expectations right know and

05:19 slowly converge into a more concrete um

05:23 thing right so I feel that that

05:25 expectation and that convergence is very

05:27 important if you ask me right yeah I

05:29 think what's driving obviously the

05:30 points meta is the regulatory Arbitrage

05:32 right which is at least in the US and

05:34 certain parts of the world you can't

05:36 just aird drop tokens to their users so

05:40 this is a way to at least save some time

05:42 so that products startups can kind of

05:44 think about what their regulatory

05:46 strategy is when they're Dr airdropping

05:47 tokens and I think that's kind of the

05:49 fundamental like narrative for Founders

05:52 but I also think it's a great way to

05:54 gamify your experience and attract new

05:55 users so I do think there's an

05:57 opportunity to like gamify keep people

05:59 engaged and things like that so do you

06:01 guys feel the the points meta is here to

06:03 stay let's say 6 to 12 months from now

06:06 or is it being play it out I think 6 to

06:09 12 months maybe I do think that 2 years

06:12 from now probably not cuz there's like

06:14 levels of tiredness and I think we're

06:16 kind of itching into the Lost quartile

06:20 of tiredness where it's like okay like

06:22 it's getting a little tiresome and

06:23 honestly if I was starting a new product

06:26 right now I wouldn't do points I would

06:27 do something else just find a creative

06:29 thing I know leaderboards badges uh nfts

06:32 like nfts that morph nfts that change I

06:35 think nfts is this form factor that is

06:36 infinitely flexible Dynamic yeah like

06:39 Dynamic stuff right just find

06:41 interesting things nfts that level

06:43 themselves up I don't know like do

06:44 something different do something that

06:46 people are going to talk about on CT I

06:48 think that's how you win tar from

06:50 multicoin um I think he tweeted about

06:52 this he wrote an article about this

06:53 which is um back in our day um you know

06:57 you could mine Bitcoin to get Bitcoin

06:59 right and then you had that was like the

07:01 fundraising landscape then the the

07:03 second phase was icos right and that

07:05 speculative Mania then the next phase

07:08 was nfts like buying nfts early now he

07:11 says it's points so it could very well

07:14 be that the meta that you mentioned

07:16 could change into something more

07:17 gamified um we just don't know what that

07:19 is exactly but I'm sure there's someone

07:21 that's going to be crack that could

07:22 crack that I'm going to take the other

07:24 side okay I think if you have a good

07:26 product and you just want some reward

07:28 structure

07:30 to like maximize growth or like to

07:32 increase the rate of growth I think

07:34 points are perfectly fine because if

07:37 people are using your product because

07:39 there's product Market fit and it's

07:40 intrinsically useful doesn't matter what

07:43 kind of like weird

07:44 gamification uh convoluted setup that

07:47 you can give them points are I think

07:50 fine however if you're a new startup

07:54 that hasn't really reached product

07:55 Market fit and you just want to make a

07:57 big splash with something like novel

07:59 something unique and you want to like

08:01 also like you know drive a drive a bunch

08:03 of like distribution that you don't

08:05 already have then yes you you'll have to

08:07 think of something else besides

08:09 points um I think it's all going to be

08:11 there I think I think if you look at um

08:14 incentives in crypto it never goes away

08:16 right every single incentive happen in

08:17 the past still future it just BEC more

08:20 interesting and more fancy and more

08:21 Diversified right and that's great I

08:23 think you know right yeah so we'll see

08:25 everything yeah I mean

08:26 we're like and even the prod Market fit

08:28 thing right sometimes you don't even

08:30 need P right we all know projects that

08:32 just um you launch a I mean no no no or

08:36 even a like replica of a different

08:38 project right and then just oh hey we

08:39 have points or we have tokens or

08:40 something you know right we see that all

08:42 the time right a new L2 a new n

08:44 marketplace right I feel that never goes

08:45 well I feel if some I feel that never

08:47 goes well though like if somebody

08:48 launches a pure replica with a token

08:50 versus something that doesn't have a

08:52 token like to me a great example is

08:53 looks rare copy paste openc slap on a

08:56 token went to zero because it didn't try

08:58 to do anything new versus blur and us

09:00 that actually tried like a different

09:01 form factor so yeah sushi shop did it

09:04 pretty well I feel like they well where

09:06 is Sushi now though huh where Su yeah I

09:08 mean they they have like maybe 10%

09:10 market shares but look at the history of

09:12 All Copy pasta in the history of crypto

09:14 only one worked and that was Monero so

09:17 Monero is actually not original there

09:19 was a Monero is actually a fork of

09:21 another project that and this was like

09:24 back back in 2013 or something um mon is

09:27 the only copy past that the only Fork

09:29 that turns out to be the winner

09:31 everything else that forked a previous

09:34 project has

09:35 failed I think if you copy pasta and

09:38 then you just iterate on new things

09:40 really quickly that could also turn out

09:42 to be a good outcome but I think like

09:43 maybe the sushi swap example is bad

09:45 because I feel like execution was also

09:48 not as great as Unis swap yeah yeah and

09:51 so they didn't like take advantage of

09:52 all the momentum they got initially they

09:54 just kind of like oh cool now we're like

09:56 50% market share and they just sat in

09:58 their they got too decentralized um too

10:01 many products too many

10:03 products front had like 10 different

10:05 products you can choose whereas unisoft

10:06 is super clean just they kept it the

10:08 same they never really changed it so

10:11 that actually goes to something that I

10:13 feel you start to understand the more

10:15 time you spend in crypto and that is the

10:17 importance of narratives and the

10:19 importance of keeping them very clean

10:21 and simple as a Founder you basically

10:24 want your product and your company to

10:25 have one narrative and one narrative

10:27 only yeah it's the hardest thing to do

10:30 because you can only pick one you can't

10:32 do seven narratives but the founders

10:34 that do that I think do really well

10:36 wouldn't M take the other side of this

10:37 because you're launching many

10:40 products the

10:42 best The Narrative is best unchain

10:45 exchange that's it but for spot and

10:48 derivatives and Launchpad yeah all

10:51 unchain

10:52[Music]

10:54 unchain Ty this is not products this is

10:57 narratives right you want one like

10:59 forers like the liquidity layer for nfts

11:02 that's all we're doing that's the only

11:04 thing we're doing you know I realized

11:05 with sushi swap um the reason why I

11:08 think they failed was the fact that they

11:10 didn't think from first principles right

11:11 they copied someone else's vision and

11:14 then they kind of put in their own like

11:16 way that they thought that the product

11:18 should go and it obviously F fell flat

11:21 so copying some like another product

11:23 fine but really you got to find the

11:24 inspiration of understanding what your

11:26 users want and you could only do that by

11:28 building the actual product first yeah

11:30 for the most part actually just let me

11:31 share something here real quick right

11:32 it's either Synergy right is that for us

11:35 anyway right I think the the reason why

11:37 I think we did well is that um it's to

11:41 detail so so far okay so far it's not

11:43 too bad no no no no so far not too bad I

11:45 think the the the key the key idea here

11:47 right is that Synergy right it's like

11:49 for example if you went off to do

11:51 something like completely different I

11:52 can't tell you what right but um when

11:55 the user comes to Jupiter right you know

11:57 what what else is he going to do right

11:59 what else he going to be interested in

12:00 right is he going to be interested in

12:02 spot in DCA right is he going in PBS

12:05 right is he going to be interested in

12:06 new projects that forming right I think

12:08 yes right so there actually a very so um

12:10 I think few things driers is narrative

12:12 right I think I think it's really really

12:14 important to have one narrative right

12:15 and for us is okay can we build the the

12:17 best onchain exchange possible yeah

12:19 right simple sharp to the point right

12:22 and the second thing that we really care

12:23 about is synergy right okay hey when a

12:25 user comes in right would they find

12:28 everything interesting

12:29 right you know anything anything that we

12:31 don't think is interesting is no goal

12:33 for us right and thir is also team

12:36 strength right you know like because

12:38 again I'm telling you guys like um

12:40 building is easy I'm telling you right

12:42 like just building new stuff is easy

12:43 right coding is very easy right but

12:44 building like real competency is very

12:46 hard right like every single product we

12:48 build and stuff oh my God I'm telling

12:49 you like to get there was really tough

12:52 right so I think I think a big part is

12:53 okay if we do this thing um does it

12:55 leverage on the competencies that we

12:58 have right and secondly okay is this

13:00 competency important to us in the

13:03 future right and and it it can be very

13:05 triv things like Cloud FL you know or

13:07 like like rpcs how do you handle RPC and

13:09 stuff right so I think uh like like for

13:11 example uh we we the launch pad right um

13:14 we we man telling you that was a big

13:16 decision right instead of launching you

13:18 we to BU launch pad yeah but I think uh

13:21 but I think part of at least at least a

13:23 big part of like what drives a deis was

13:25 okay are the lessons that we learn from

13:27 doing it is going to be good for us on

13:29 right you know are we we're going to

13:30 have to massively scale it's like a

13:32 rocket launch right yeah precisely right

13:34 it's like how and and is it going to

13:36 kind add a interesting Dynamic to our

13:39 community right you know so I I so I I

13:41 feel like um yeah so that's that's how

13:43 think about it right it's like it's in

13:44 terms of like very um like synergistic

13:46 narrative synergistic to users and

13:48 synergistic to kind of like um the team

13:50 competence yeah add on to that the way I

13:54 think about it is I think like startups

13:56 and like working on products is a market

13:59 in itself yeah and if you believe in the

14:01 efficient market hypothesis there's

14:03 probably a better team out there who can

14:05 do something better like some other like

14:07 unrelated product orthogonal product to

14:09 your product um if there's no Synergy

14:12 right yeah so for us like hypothetically

14:14 let's say we decided to build some sort

14:16 of token experience right go head on

14:17 with u m and and Jupiter no no

14:20 no stop leaking the

14:24 plans yeah um like yes we could maybe

14:27 capture this massive Market which is

14:28 fungible tokens on salana but now we're

14:31 going up against meow and his competent

14:32 team who has been thinking about this

14:34 Market thinking about the products

14:35 around it for more time than we've you

14:38 know spent working on tens s you

14:39 thinking about SPL 22s oh interesting on

14:44 do that point right it's like I think um

14:46 I think anyone that U who is new to

14:48 crypto right uh they would think of

14:50 product as like cod and youx or maybe

14:54 market right but the truth is that there

14:56 it's a huge component around like

14:59 ecosystem and Community right and it

15:01 might surprise you but like the the defi

15:03 community and the anti Community are

15:04 very different they they the same

15:06 ecosystem they they kind of sort of talk

15:09 in CT at same time but they're very very

15:12 different right so it's like even even

15:13 if you really kind of understand like

15:15 def5 you don't understand and vice versa

15:17 right you know it's actually really

15:18 interesting spe by way that that point

15:20 like about communities we had this

15:22 conversation maybe two years ago one or

15:24 two years ago about nft options or nft

15:27 perss and the argument we had was if you

15:30 draw the diagram of Defi and nft people

15:33 the intersection is probably too small

15:36 for a product like this to to thrive uh

15:40 but now things might have changed a

15:41 little bit maybe there's greater

15:43 intersection you guys launched a

15:45 basically it's different now so we

15:47 launched a a different type of product

15:49 on top of nfts and that's price lock

15:52 long story short is uh you can long and

15:55 short nfts given a certain period of

15:58 time right uh within a certain period of

16:00 time what's interesting is that we're

16:02 not trying to appeal to the def folks

16:04 who uses this concept of like longing

16:06 and shorting like a token or something

16:08 we're actually trying to appeal to the

16:10 nft crowd who basically have voiced uh

16:14 you know in user feedback sessions that

16:16 they just want to like be able to ape

16:18 into mad Lads or

16:19 torians uh with just like two Soul three

16:22 Soul basically a fraction of what

16:23 madlads and transer cost or they might

16:26 want to like hedge out their portfolio

16:27 where they have like 100 mad Lads and

16:29 they know that perhaps there's an

16:30 announcement coming up and they want to

16:32 hedge their downside exposure right so

16:34 we're still appealing to the nft crowd

16:36 it's not really the defi crowd at all so

16:37 you're building tool sets for nft

16:39 Traders essentially exactly yeah yeah I

16:42 think your point about um competencies

16:45 is spoton it's very easy to look at a

16:48 wallet or to look at a perf exchange or

16:49 to look at an nft Marketplace and to say

16:52 hey how hard is that to build it's like

16:54 you know it's like two days of work and

16:56 then what you discover is that yeah yeah

16:58 it's two days of work to ship the basic

17:01 most version of that but then there's a

17:03 long tale of [ __ ] that you have to deal

17:05 with of like all kinds of issues that

17:08 you just you could not have thought

17:10 about and the teams like Jupiter teams

17:12 like ours you know like backpack they're

17:14 building the wallet they've gone through

17:17 that they've built all of that and that

17:19 is like super valuable it's like the

17:22 number of things go

17:23[Laughter]

17:25 wrong insane insane insane and and and

17:28 and one thing that really care about is

17:30 customer service right you know because

17:31 it's all about customers all about

17:33 customer service like it's like it's

17:34 funny right because um like what you

17:36 read and what you can think of is the

17:38 top end of the tail right you know the

17:39 the fat tail right you know right but

17:42 the the the many the endless number of

17:44 things that you users deal with right

17:45 it's a long tail right and and you know

17:48 it's like and you really need to take a

17:51 a big part of tail right you can just

17:52 leave them alone right so I feel like uh

17:54 I I actually feel like great teams um

17:56 including like tensor and also backpack

17:58 and also like and pretty much all the OG

17:59 teams like com know everyone right Marin

18:02 everyone it's like these are all teams

18:03 that has spent the last um two years

18:06 market last two years right really

18:08 dealing with the longtail [ __ ] right you

18:10 know even when it wasn't quote unquote

18:12 economically wise right and I love that

18:16 guys isn't it great isn't it great that

18:17 like I mean obviously we have a lot of

18:19 competition and everything right but we

18:21 are as a community right it's like we we

18:22 dealt with it right in the the last two

18:25 years when everyone was like hey get off

18:27 [ __ ] this [ __ ] you know

18:29 CH is great CH is great talk about that

18:31 but I think um but but we we just like

18:33 you know work through all the issues

18:36 right you know even when it was like the

18:37 longtail issues right you know even when

18:39 it was like economically unfeasible

18:41 you're solving issues for like three

18:42 users

18:43 precisely know that don't know that it

18:45 kind of sucks but you do it uh the

18:47 number of times we had to fix something

18:49 for like one guy in Discord so often

18:51 it's like the devil's devil and the

18:52 details where the analogy is you can

18:54 either use an Apple product or you can

18:57 use like a knockoff uh copycat Apple

18:59 product from like China right yes

19:01 they're practically speaking almost the

19:04 same products but you're not going to

19:06 get apple care you're not going to be

19:07 able to walk into a store and get your

19:09 knockoff fixed you're not going to be

19:10 able to connect it seamlessly with your

19:12 iPhone and like yes you get 90% of the

19:15 experience but it's really that 10% that

19:17 people are paying a premium for and you

19:18 and you scroll that something that

19:21 t once a day because when you when you

19:25 scroll you scroll like 90% of time right

19:27 and it just like 10 get to you but if it

19:29 wasn't for them you know you wouldn't

19:31 have a product that's like pristine now

19:33 at this point right it's like the early

19:34 days the feedback that helps you guys to

19:36 where you are today I can't emphasize

19:38 this more man I feel like I really feel

19:39 you man it's like that like um it's like

19:42 that that that one user and not just

19:44 like guys I think one one one anal user

19:47 no no it's actually important let me sh

19:49 something here right it's like um to all

19:50 the builders here right anyone right

19:52 it's all the users as well right it's

19:53 like the thing that sometimes um when

19:55 you cater to that one user right you

19:57 learn something

19:58 mhm oh wow I didn't know that [ __ ] broke

20:01 this way right it really helped you

20:03 later right you know right so I feel

20:05 like I think one thing that we do a lot

20:06 of just really care about the [ __ ]

20:08 one user yeah you know right just really

20:09 care about that stuff you know yeah it

20:11 helps much better to have 100 users that

20:13 love you than 10,000 users that kind of

20:16 like you yeah you know and I feel like

20:18 the way you get to and remember like for

20:20 last two years so didn't have many users

20:22 you know right so we have no choice but

20:24 to get 100 yeah all the 100 are in front

20:27 of you

20:28 no thousand just 100 users yeah

20:32 precisely funny so we talked about how

20:36 at least before defi nft communities

20:38 were separate right uh and then you're

20:40 building tool sets they enable nft

20:43 traders to make you know better

20:45 decisions what do you guys think about

20:47 the two new standards that just came

20:48 about uh one is in the ethereum RO or

20:51 the evm RO it's the ERC 404 or 404 uh DN

20:55 404 the uh on the on the salana side

20:58 side you have sp22 right with Ghost and

21:01 and a couple other launches so to me it

21:03 seems like they're kind of being Blended

21:06 right and so some of the startups like

21:08 Wasabi on on ethereum they're building

21:10 you know more defi like products on top

21:12 of the fractional token model uh for

21:14 these nft communities so do you feel

21:16 like these new standards are novel are

21:18 they you know here to stay and what

21:21 types of products do you see being built

21:22 because of that so I kind of speak from

21:25 basically the uh me mind like mind maze

21:29 or idea maze that we went through when

21:32 thinking about like how do we make

21:33 trading nfts more efficient and I'll

21:35 give you a very concrete example we

21:37 wanted initially to build an order book

21:39 for for nfts on

21:41 salana tldr is we looked at uh Phoenix

21:45 we looked at serum and we basically like

21:49 you could do it in a way right that is

21:51 somewhat user friendly but not fully

21:53 user friendly but there's a lot of

21:55 trade-offs in that like if people start

21:57 spamming your order order book with just

21:59 like a bunch of nft orders eventually

22:01 you'll get filled out and you'll run

22:03 into a lot of

22:04 issues at least in my mind the only way

22:07 to solve it was to basically

22:08 fractionalize nfts but there are a lot

22:11 of downsides of fractionalizing

22:14 nfts um if they're not natively you know

22:17 in this uh ERC 404 or uh SPL 22 on

22:21 salana the downside is uh there's this

22:24 like decoupling between the nft and the

22:26 tokens yeah and it's entirely managed by

22:28 let's say a different protocol so it's

22:30 not even like the collection never

22:31 decided to opt into it it's being

22:33 fractionalized by some other protocol

22:35 that built

22:36 fractionalization um but the benefit of

22:39 these new standards is someone can opt

22:41 in and decide on day one that we want

22:43 this collection to trade as both

22:45 fungible tokens and nfts and what's

22:47 interesting at least for us is maybe we

22:49 can start to build an order book for

22:51 nfts and what's interesting about an

22:53 order book for nfts is uh you don't get

22:56 this uh terrible ux uh where if you're

22:59 trying to like sweep a bunch of nfts at

23:01 the floor you just get a bunch of

23:02 failures because there's no onchain

23:04 matching engine that was that that's

23:06 still an issue we're struggling with uh

23:08 so potentially this could be an

23:09 interesting way around that yeah I think

23:13 it's definitely interesting new for for

23:15 Factor the one thing I will say is I

23:17 tend to believe in Simplicity and I

23:20 think the markets that end up being the

23:22 largest in the world are the simplest

23:25 Market markets so to me that is still

23:27 the two extreme of it's non fungible or

23:30 it's fungible I think those two markets

23:32 are going to be by far the largest now

23:34 is there a really interesting Market in

23:35 the middle that is starting to form and

23:37 are there going to be really interesting

23:39 new use cases that we discovered this

23:41 year yeah like absolutely and I think

23:42 tensor is there to you know experiment

23:44 and and and try and discover them um but

23:47 I think like 10 years from now I still

23:49 think the barbell of like fungible

23:51 non-fungible is going to be the largest

23:53 markets sometimes the media can be

23:55 really big right like U tokens you know

23:57 right it's like like um like Panda right

24:00 yeah that panda is like I mean panda is

24:01 interesting because they they take a

24:03 token and they take sticking and they

24:04 say okay can we the U of it can we Tok U

24:08 of that right you know so Pendle token

24:10 right on yeah Pendle everything right so

24:12 it's like can like can can you create

24:14 amm or markers of you right so I feel

24:17 like um sometimes I know I agree with

24:19 you by the way I I think I think the the

24:20 biggest one are still going to be

24:21 funable and non funable right but I

24:23 think if those two become big enough

24:25 right then in a meter then interesting

24:27 things happen you know yeah there is a

24:29 meta point about this which is uh I know

24:33 a lot of some of the best Founders that

24:35 we work with see 44 as an opportunity to

24:39 uh to take advantage of and possibly

24:42 Dethrone the bigger players so and and

24:44 in crypto there's or in just maybe in

24:46 Tech in general there's constantly these

24:48 new things that just pop up out of

24:50 nowhere that create opportunities for

24:53 Founders um to to take advantage of

24:56 right in your experience just building

24:58 the last 3 years have you observed such

25:01 um new things that come out of nowhere

25:03 that that people have uh to taken

25:06 advantage of or your per you personally

25:08 have taken advantage of yeah this is uh

25:10 so we talked about this during the talk

25:12 right finding your wedge as a startup

25:15 who doesn't already have overwhelming

25:17 market share in your category you have

25:19 to find something that is differentiated

25:21 that is so different that the incumbents

25:23 are not doing uh for us we've actually

25:26 encountered this a couple of times on

25:27 salana just with nfts uh themselves and

25:30 those are like new standards or even

25:32 like inscriptions on

25:34 salana so you know taking a step back

25:37 there was basically a whole movement of

25:39 taking the idea of inscription and ordos

25:41 from Bitcoin and copy ping it to every

25:44 other chain makes no sense uh

25:47 intuitively like why someone would do

25:49 inscriptions on salana because it's not

25:51 like on on bitcoin it's the only way to

25:53 do nfts on Solana it's not the only way

25:55 to do nfts you can do it much more

25:57 efficiently

25:58 that being said people latched onto that

26:00 narrative so going back to the idea that

26:01 people in crypto are trading based on a

26:04 single narrative or a couple of

26:05 narratives we had to jump on

26:07 inscriptions otherwise we might have

26:09 faced disruption by some other startup

26:11 who jumped on it quicker than us I think

26:13 basically in crypto more so than in web

26:15 2 you can never rest on your Laural you

26:18 really need to like howo are you guys

26:21 like more paranoid that I would like to

26:23 be yeah it's easier to say what I don't

26:26 lose sleepover at this point

26:27[Laughter]

26:30 but your girlfriend like that yeah I

26:34 guess I mean it's it's a real problem

26:36 right like you're trying to go on a date

26:37 or something where trying to look at a

26:39 girl but think nft is

26:41 like it's a problem man yeah yeah I mean

26:44 we do live in a 24/7 Market 247 247 I

26:48 wake up crypto I sleep crypto my biggest

26:51 moment for me when I realized that

26:53 crypto doesn't sleep was the one inch I

26:55 I Dro and stuff like in Christmas like

26:56 two fback

26:58 oh that's right yeah that was like funny

26:59 was like a Christmas y brick what the

27:02 [ __ ] the D God's last Christmas right do

27:05 you remember that the D transition to a

27:06 different chain that took over CT that

27:09 was the bottom that was the bottom

27:10 bottom that was on the bottom oh my God

27:13 such a great bottom though yeah that's

27:16 so much well I mean he's permanently DG

27:17 God's Frank is permanently like like

27:20 it's really hard for him to come back to

27:21 Sal it seems I heard he's trying to come

27:23 back kind thanks for listening to good

27:25 game we wanted to take a quick moment

27:27 for a short new segment crypto startup

27:29 stories where we Spotlight Founders who

27:31 went through the alliance accelerator

27:33 today we're focusing on the startups

27:35 shaping the salana ecosystem like

27:37 Jupiter and tenzer so without further

27:39 Ado let's hear from Daniel gay the

27:42 founder of flex Daniel what are you

27:44 building we're building Flex it's a tool

27:46 to make D5 much easier and less timec

27:49 consuming for people uh essentially

27:51 we've aggregated all the lending apps on

27:53 salana and allow you to lend from one

27:55 place we're going to move your funds

27:57 around so that you're always earning as

27:58 much as you can great how did you uh

28:01 come up with the idea user feedback so

28:03 we had originally started building a

28:05 different product called lulo that one

28:07 didn't go as great as we wanted but it

28:10 did generate a lot of feedback and a lot

28:12 of touch points with people and slowly

28:14 we collected a lot of feedback we saw a

28:16 lot of patterns and that's how Flexin

28:17 was born it's essentially a product

28:19 built 100% based off user feedback did

28:22 you reach out to the customers to get

28:24 feedback what was the process like so

28:26 early on we used the communities my

28:28 founder my co-founder and I were part of

28:31 so you know I would reach out to every

28:32 Community I was part of an nft group a

28:34 Trading Group uh defi group and try to

28:37 get two or three people from each group

28:39 to try out the product and become early

28:40 users um and that's kind of how we got

28:42 our first like 50 people to try it out

28:45 um and from there you kind of see what

28:47 groups they're part of and try to go

28:49 deeper into those groups and that's kind

28:51 of how we did it spider web style what's

28:53 one piece of advice that you give to

28:55 Founders are building this space yeah

28:57 I'd say don't forget to live it sounds a

29:00 little like uh cliche but I think I see

29:03 personally as a Founder like a lot of

29:04 hustle content that's maybe targeted to

29:07 me and I don't really agree with it I

29:09 think it's important to take care of

29:10 your body it's important to take care of

29:12 your mind it's important to have hobbies

29:14 it's important to develop yourself as a

29:16 person because you know you're GNA be

29:18 working on this for five years or more

29:20 so regardless if it succeeds or if it

29:22 fails if you're not enjoying the time if

29:24 you don't come out of it as a better

29:26 person holistic

29:28 then I think it's a losing proposition

29:30 so I don't really think sitting at the

29:32 computer 16 hours a day is the way to go

29:34 about it I think you need to carve out

29:36 time for for other activities and other

29:38 things and and to take care of yourself

29:40 in terms of flex um how is the momentum

29:42 going you um got the feedback with lulo

29:45 and then you built an aggregator you

29:47 talked to customers you did the

29:48 spiderweb effect of getting users to

29:50 give you feedback you use that feedback

29:53 as a way to enhance your product which

29:55 is flex L now you're a f you're an

29:58 aggregator and uh you know you're

30:00 aggregating lending across all of Salon

30:03 Defi and I guess how's the usage been

30:06 and maybe if you could describe in in

30:08 one or two sentences of the value

30:10 proposition of flexxin and why people

30:12 should use it you know I used to think

30:14 user feedback was a part of early stage

30:17 startups I now think it is the only

30:19 thing that matters

30:21 because at the beginning you you should

30:23 be just optimizing for generating

30:24 feedback as much as you can and once you

30:26 build something people actually want

30:28 which is based on feedback growth is not

30:31 easy but it's much easier so flexon has

30:33 definitely grown a lot faster than lulo

30:35 has we get a lot more positive feedback

30:37 we get a lot more like organic usage and

30:40 people like really like feeling like

30:42 they're solving an issue when they use

30:43 it so that's really exciting to see I

30:45 think the the growth like confirms like

30:47 you don't actually know what you what

30:49 you should build just based on Instinct

30:50 you really have to listen to people it's

30:52 the only way to do it right so I think

30:54 from here it's you know there's more

30:55 product Market fits so now the user your

30:57 feedback also becomes more focused on

30:59 the product and like how to make it

31:00 better rather than like being very

31:01 sporadic which is kind of how it feels

31:03 when you don't have product Market fit

31:05 feedback is from all over the place and

31:07 so the quality of feedback also changes

31:10 as you get closer to something people

31:11 want and why should people use flex lend

31:14 today if you don't want to spend hours a

31:17 day optimizing your lending and you want

31:19 to earn really really good rates on usdc

31:23 specifically and stable coins then

31:24 flex's definitely the product for you

31:26 great Daniel thank you so much for your

31:28 time yeah thank you

31:33 andron so you know sp22 was an

31:36 interesting kind of like wedge that that

31:38 we're seeing and we'll see what types of

31:40 products are being built but uh actually

31:42 sorry can I just real quick it's like um

31:46 I mean I I don't I don't know Frank but

31:48 u i I'm just amazed that the community

31:50 here has bu right he a good Community

31:52 it's like I actually don't think Frank

31:53 is a bad guy I think people overdo it I

31:55 I think he tried some [ __ ] he learned

31:57 some [ __ ] and uh you know some things

31:59 worked something didn't like did he make

32:01 a bunch of mistakes maybe I don't know I

32:02 I still think he yeah I think the meta

32:04 point is maybe maybe it's because like

32:07 everything is so like everyone on TW

32:09 like in crypto Twitter is so like

32:10 connected and so there's this like uh

32:13 like like these extreme feedback loops

32:15 where people just like pile on people

32:17 because it's fun too and it's

32:19 entertainment competition also right

32:21 right exactly like everyone is just talk

32:23 like competition is talking to each

32:24 other at light speed and I think like in

32:26 crypto like realistically all of these

32:28 projects these nftd Founders they're

32:30 basically doing startups and if you take

32:33 like web 2 startup metrics 90% of these

32:35 guys will fail just by statistics right

32:37 but CT expects everyone to execute

32:40 perfectly and to not make any mistakes

32:42 which is not the case if you're trying

32:43 to build something Innovative if you're

32:44 trying to like start this like brand new

32:46 web 3 Community you're going to make a

32:47 ton of mistakes along the way and you

32:49 can't fault fault a guy for no ending up

32:51 like deciding to take this path which

32:53 turned out to be wrong to be quite Frank

32:55 I don't think any nft Community has

32:57 actually found product Market fit yet

32:59 except for pudy penguins which is

33:02 they're coming very close they're coming

33:04 very close but like if when PUD orians

33:07 that's the question hit us up

33:09 Lucas Lucas will will be on our podcast

33:12 he'll be on our podcast okay nice when

33:14 Jupiter nfts that's what we know dude

33:17 it's crazy it's like I just say

33:18 something I I tweeted like I tweeted

33:20 like hey the da the da oh I remember

33:23 this I tweeted the da can consider

33:25 funding and PFS and then oh my God it

33:28 became big news oh jup is doing NF two

33:31 minutes we in your DMs like so when are

33:32 we doing this yeah I'm not kidding like

33:34 so many people DM me after that right I

33:36 was like no I didn't say we're doing

33:37 nfts I said that thou should consider

33:39 funding nfts for fun Community project

33:42 that honestly that M come to Jesus for

33:44 me I'm like okay wow I really got to be

33:46 careful yeah you are a public figure now

33:50 no no dud no it's funny because I'm so

33:52 used to talking [ __ ] right no seriously

33:54 I'm so used to [ __ ] talking right I'm so

33:56 used to just

33:57 like oh [ __ ] no man doesn't make sense

34:00 yeah but yeah but that was interesting

34:02 because like I Tweed that I went to and

34:04 I Tweed that I went to sleep right you

34:06 know I'm saying and then the next

34:07 morning I bombarded I'm like oh my God

34:08 everyone's like yeah you know what I

34:10 mean yeah [ __ ] these days are tweets

34:13 get like easily 5,000 likes h no I don't

34:16 I am very impressed by your engagement

34:17 sorry I am very impressed by your

34:18 engagement yeah he attracts all the

34:23 cats yeah let's just say that um it has

34:26 been a really big lesson for me

34:29 recently how to get to engage yeah you

34:31 know I want to go back to the the nft

34:33 sorry just one last thing on Frank uh

34:35 just to say that I think um I I I feel

34:38 like I'm actually pretty impressed by uh

34:40 the Frank Community Theos Community I'm

34:42 sure you guys as I thought is like

34:44 incredibly resilient right and Frank did

34:46 reach out to me recently you know uh

34:48 yeah and then just just say hi and I

34:50 think um yeah I feel like he could have

34:52 easily walked away yeah walked away yeah

34:53 I think I think he's still in the game

34:55 he's trying to I I think the the

34:57 tribalism of crypto um got to him you

35:01 know I think think he I'm not sure but I

35:02 think he probably um he probably didn't

35:05 um it's a good topic as well the

35:07 tribalism right in all crypto and stuff

35:08 yeah you know yeah but I in summary I

35:10 don't I don't drag this topic on but

35:12 just just say that like um you know I I

35:14 I I feel like um you know I feel like we

35:15 should all be like understanding and

35:16 stuff yeah we should be less harsh on on

35:19 Frank um at least on the Salam side we

35:21 should be less harsh on Founders iners

35:23 in general 100% agreed I mean Founders

35:27 just get a lot of [ __ ] all the time on

35:28 Twitter all the time like even if they

35:31 do something good well intentioned and

35:33 successful like like your airdrop it was

35:35 very successful in my mind and people

35:37 just anyone who who didn't get airdrop

35:39 or missed out on D and they're coping

35:41 yeah they're coping and now imagine e

35:43 Maxes are coping too right yeah exactly

35:45 I feel like the longer you stay in

35:46 crypto the more you learn that at the

35:47 end of the day you can't make everybody

35:49 happy like no matter what you do there's

35:51 going to be somebody unhappy like you

35:52 can drive a truck of gold into someone's

35:54 apartment and they're going to say well

35:56 why only one truck you know like and I

35:58 don't know at some point you're just

35:59 kind you just kind of learn to to deal

36:02 with it and just like on that note I

36:04 feel like some of the best uh marketers

36:06 in crypto are those who have found a

36:08 really good Nemesis and they're

36:09 constantly at them like they have

36:11 enemies but and they're aware of it and

36:13 they take advantage of that to build

36:15 their personal brand have you guys seen

36:16 the soen versus margin oh my goded tmy

36:21 I'm not going to comment too much cuz we

36:22 like both of them yeah no I I didn't

36:25 know this drama existed it's like drama

36:27 but it's kind not really drama it's just

36:29 a lot of like comp like really good um

36:33 like disses between the two you know

36:35 founding

36:37 te a r better yeah I would say this

36:40 though I think um I did learn a lot

36:42 about how to improve in the range of

36:44 things you know I do actually think that

36:46 um even though it's intense but I feel

36:49 like the two things the two look at it

36:51 right it can be like oh it's so unfair

36:52 blah blah blah but I think on my end I

36:53 think I generally feel like if I can

36:56 just just take a step back and go okay

36:57 what did I do anything right could I

36:59 have done anything better you know to

37:01 cause this thing right yeah I think I

37:02 learned know yeah and to AR Wasington

37:04 stuff and I learn yeah oh I'm actually

37:07 curious what would you have done

37:09 differently oh that that requires a

37:11 completely different

37:13 podcast podcast let's um let's do a

37:17 let's let's schedule a podcast like two

37:19 months from now you know go go the

37:20 mistakes and stuff yeah that'll be fun I

37:22 think yeah yes but but quite a few going

37:23 back to deot um and the larger meta one

37:26 like I I saw Frank's recent announcement

37:28 I think it was a month ago where he came

37:30 back he was quiet for a bit he came back

37:31 and he's building this entire Community

37:33 right kind of like a YY Bookface for all

37:35 of the members of the nft community um

37:38 and so you're seeing this with d Gods as

37:40 an example with pudgy Penguins what

37:42 you're seeing is you can license your IP

37:44 and earn some of that Revenue

37:46 interesting and then you have um auki

37:49 that are uh using their IP as a way to

37:51 create anime art and and Comics Etc so I

37:55 guess the question for you guys is where

37:58 is the nft space going where are these

38:01 Communities going you have people that

38:02 buy and sell these nfts what happens

38:05 next like where do you see this going

38:07 what's the product Market fit look like

38:09 here for nfts Beyond jpeg trading Beyond

38:11 jpeg trading so maybe specifically

38:13 talking about Frank one of his biggest

38:15 strengths is building the community

38:17 right aming the DG God's Community is

38:18 probably one of the best most tight-knit

38:20 communities in all of crypto and res and

38:23 I think he should just double down on

38:24 that I think he should focus everything

38:26 like whether it's throwing more events

38:28 whether it's uh creating this uh

38:30 homegrown community of like Founders and

38:32 Builders within de gods and just double

38:35 Downing on that and just focusing on

38:36 community versus maybe other things like

38:39 IP or utility question for you how do

38:41 how how did they come about I'm just

38:43 astonished you know at how resilient

38:45 that Community is like how do you come

38:46 about you know I think the idea is he

38:49 was he was like a very different person

38:53 at the time compared to other nft

38:54 Founders he was very vocal and he knew

38:57 how to play the game so he knew how to

38:58 attract a bunch of attention from

39:01 everyone who was on crypto Twitter at

39:02 the time he basically had a very

39:04 interesting narrative which was creating

39:06 almost like the he describes it as like

39:08 a frat house or sorority house for

39:11 everyone in cry crypto right and I think

39:12 that that spoke to a lot of people

39:15 because a lot of people at the time

39:16 which which was during Co wanted that

39:18 feeling of belonging to a

39:21 community I think to answer a question

39:23 of like where are nfts going I actually

39:25 think the answer is they're going to

39:27 become more and more Diversified and

39:29 each Community is going to become a

39:32 mirror of the founder in some way like

39:34 you think about madlads and maybe torans

39:37 they're like very oriented towards

39:39 building and kind of towards like hey

39:41 like let's make something cool there's a

39:43 lot of that kind of spirit there then

39:45 you look at some like Clos right it's a

39:47 totally different group of people

39:48 they're excited about IP they're excited

39:50 about movies they're excited about art

39:52 they're excited about creative their

39:54 shorts are some of the funniest I've

39:55 seen on Twitter right like they're

39:57 hilarious uh and then you know you pick

39:59 the next 10 communities and they're all

40:01 different and and that's what nfts

40:02 should be they shouldn't be all the same

40:03 they should all be different right

40:04 interesting I also think the idea of

40:06 like nfts as communities is just one use

40:09 case for nfts definely it's the current

40:11 meta it's the most like obvious meta

40:13 that makes sense or that people have

40:15 found you know when nfts became a thing

40:18 uh that just makes sense like to be the

40:20 the first meta of of this of people like

40:22 trading nfts back and forth but

40:23 obviously like nfts is just a form

40:25 factor it's funable tokens you can use

40:27 it for many things right it doesn't have

40:28 to be just a community it could be uh

40:30 real world assets it could be uh

40:34 basically tokenizing everything in the

40:35 real world where most things in in real

40:38 life are non-fungible by Nature like

40:40 every single item you buy at a store has

40:41 a serial number and if you wanted to

40:44 tokenize and then eventually

40:45 financialized all of these items they

40:47 have to be nfts yeah and I think that's

40:49 that's what's interesting to us as as

40:51 tensor we've built the financial rails

40:53 for all of this stuff and if crypto eats

40:55 the world and everything becomes

40:57 tokenized then all this stuff hopefully

40:59 trades on tensor there is some really

41:02 weird [ __ ] happening on ethereum already

41:03 there's like luxury watches being

41:06 tokenized as an nft onchain and then

41:08 people would borrow money uh borrow

41:10 fungible like usdc or something off of

41:14 the watch as a collateral and so this

41:16 this idea of of combining putting all

41:19 the assets on chain it is happening like

41:21 a few years ago if you asked me a few

41:22 years ago I would have said it's too

41:23 early we're too early for this but it is

41:25 happening now

41:27 and possibly it's going to happen on

41:29 yeah the 10x feature there is uh watches

41:32 like think about like in the real world

41:34 where would you go to get like a loan on

41:36 your watch there's probably like two

41:37 guys in the world who would do that you

41:39 go to a pawn there's or you go to a pawn

41:41 shop would you get like completely

41:42 ripped off ripped off yeah like Lan

41:44 sharks but now you basically get access

41:46 to This Global permissionless liquidity

41:49 the D the Deens who are ready to earn

41:51 yield on anything they have so much

41:53 money just because they were ear the

41:55 power of the web or or like internet in

41:58 general and crypto just accelerates it

41:59 which is things that used to be Niche

42:02 start to become Global like what did

42:04 Reddit do right Reddit created a place

42:06 for Niche communities to go Global and

42:09 you can all of a sudden find like if

42:11 you're interested in I don't know

42:13 collecting red tiles for your house then

42:15 all of a sudden you can find another guy

42:17 who's interested in collecting red tiles

42:18 for his house and you guys bond this guy

42:20 is crypto takes that to a yeah I mean

42:25 yes

42:27 crypto takes that to another level where

42:30 not not only do you Bond based on

42:32 interest now but you also Bond

42:34 financially because you guys probably

42:36 both invested in some reptile startup

42:38 and you guys have their tokens their

42:40 nfts and it's all fun and games and it

42:43 just like creates another level of

42:44 connection and and brings people

42:46 together even more it almost seems like

42:48 crypto is sucking the real world in

42:51 slowly but surely slowly but surely yeah

42:54 and and you know when we always talk

42:55 chiao to to Founders we like you know

42:58 just focus on the users that are in

42:59 crypto it's very hard to track people

43:00 that are outside of crypto and

43:02 eventually on that note I'm really

43:03 annoyed every time uh someone gives

43:06 advice on Twitter about hey let's focus

43:08 on the real world rather than yeah don't

43:10 build a token yeah the F it doesn't make

43:13 sense because the historically for the

43:15 last 15 years what has been happening

43:17 for the last 15 years is you have the

43:19 real world installing metamask one at a

43:23 time one at a time always one at a time

43:25 and and once they they're into uh mamass

43:27 they start doing some defi stuff nft

43:29 stuff and they get converted because

43:31 they make money and this this whole

43:33 process of user conversion through

43:35 wallet installation and then making

43:37 money has been happening for 15 years

43:39 and now we have a critical mass of those

43:40 there's like one there's two trillion

43:43 dollar of Unchained wealth in the hands

43:47 of those people yeah why would you in in

43:49 the vast majority of startups it does

43:51 not make sense to Target that world just

43:52 Target this world there's two2 trillion

43:54 dollars sitting there for you to Target

43:56 it's also a lot harder to build anything

43:57 for the real world you're going to be up

43:59 against existing regulations you're

44:00 going to be competing with existing

44:02 players who don't want you there don't

44:04 uh you have to deal with atams rather

44:05 than bits I mean it's literally taking

44:07 the hardest path yeah I I I I feel like

44:10 on this point let me put a pitching for

44:12 Solana right you know right is that um

44:15 so me so I I talk to totally about just

44:18 is that um there's actually a lot of

44:20 value in having a critical mass of

44:22 markets on salana right and I mean I

44:24 didn't I didn't say ACC markets right

44:26 because you can have the you can have

44:27 assets on you can have assets on saana

44:29 or any chain but doesn't matter right

44:31 you market for them right that mean you

44:33 need extremely liquid for example it's

44:35 it's one thing to put your um luxury

44:37 watch on chain right it's another thing

44:39 to have a to have a functioning market

44:41 right you know for that fractionalized

44:43 watch or for the loans and everything

44:44 right so I feel like that's actually um

44:46 a really big part of it I think um the

44:48 question becomes the I mean think about

44:50 right so's um so had an edge on

44:53 technology right for like last couple

44:54 years probably right right but as we

44:57 were talking before the show it's like

44:59 at some point s appos and everyone is

45:01 going to come up like as good technology

45:03 y right so question is okay so what is

45:05 sa's Edge going to be right you know I

45:08 argue that the edge that um the

45:10 community ecosystem the chain has to

45:11 build towards is like having a critical

45:13 mass of markets right you know and what

45:16 do you mean by CR critical mass of

45:17 markets that means that that it's it's

45:19 quite simple right it's like can we

45:20 because so the main thing is that I'm

45:22 I'm from Jupiter right so we take a view

45:24 on this right it's like we we want that

45:26 to be like a lot like all all the Forex

45:28 rwa you know shitcoins right mcoins good

45:30 coins whatever right you know to be on

45:32 one one sing chain right because when

45:35 you have one single chain we go from

45:37 when to like rwa to like a PayPal

45:39 transaction right you know that that's

45:41 powerful right you know when you have

45:42 things like and PayPal like PayPal py

45:44 USD right you can go from

45:47 like any given coin like with to PayPal

45:50 USD then it gets the payment that's

45:52 powerful right you know wh to Microsoft

45:55 stock

45:56 serly seriously right and another idea

45:58 was floating was simple right like can

46:00 we actually do it such that can can we

46:01 actually build a and this kind of one of

46:03 jup this thing right my my thing okay

46:05 like around can we actually build

46:07 something where um where we actually

46:09 incentivize people right to instead of

46:12 um to list on chain right yeah you're

46:15 talking about yeah I mean it it sounds

46:17 like a crazy idea but here here go right

46:18 when you list on a penny stock whatever

46:20 right it's like you don't get much right

46:21 you just get you know you don't really

46:24 don't get much right you just get all

46:25 [ __ ] you know but then if we can build a

46:27 parallel kind of like auditing parallel

46:29 uh verification mechanism right such

46:32 that if you run for example if you run a

46:34 successful internet company right you

46:35 want to list on chain get get community

46:38 you get Capital you get all the DJ small

46:39 fun right why not right so I feel like

46:42 that's the word that I think uh we want

46:44 to move towards right where okay can you

46:46 can can you really have a critical mass

46:48 of like um of tokens and markers and

46:52 like use cases right in like remittance

46:54 everything you know and and there's

46:55 tremendous do power in having all those

46:57 things on one network it's almost as if

47:00 like every startup that builds in any

47:02 sector in the space should just toonize

47:04 yeah precisely you know do you guys do

47:06 you guys feel threatened by apas and Su

47:09 here's my take so I am sure that Su and

47:13 Aptos are technically probably

47:16 technically equivalent for all intents

47:18 and purposes like same TPS same um maybe

47:21 even better deliver experience based on

47:23 what I've heard but if you think about

47:26 like all of these different chains as

47:28 like snowballs all of them start rolling

47:30 down this big hill right at different at

47:33 at different times salano basically

47:35 started rolling down this hill two three

47:37 years ago right right during the bull

47:39 market they were able to battle test

47:41 their infrastructure they were able to

47:42 onboard everyone who was priced out of

47:44 ethereum to start trading nfts on salana

47:46 and it's why there's such a big nft

47:48 community on salana right now and

47:50 they're just like further down the hill

47:52 and they're growing and they're getting

47:54 bigger and bigger than suen Aptos and

47:56 all this like momentum tends to compound

47:58 in that if you see a big snowball like

48:01 salana rolling down the hill and you're

48:03 a builder and you want to like follow

48:04 the biggest snowball you'll probably

48:06 choose to build on salana more often

48:08 than you choose to build on Aptos orui

48:10 and as you start to like see these

48:12 compounding effects occur amongst

48:14 Builders amongst liquidity amongst like

48:16 products and infrastructure uh that's

48:18 where salana can like probably pull

48:21 ahead of swen apto to a significant

48:23 point where it doesn't matter like if

48:25 these guys if these other chains are

48:27 just as uh technically capable as salana

48:29 that's so just to add on to that right

48:31 first of all developer pin is a feuture

48:33 not OB

48:35 okay sorry the I mean the the the 75

48:38 developers on so will tell you that

48:39 right you know it's like it's a it's

48:41 like um really like um having gone

48:44 through that period you know we just

48:46 really figured out a lot of things I

48:48 think you know I think it's actually a a

48:51 sense of Pride you know among son

48:52 developers um but but beyond that I

48:54 think I think I think rich as SEC right

48:56 um say for example say say you are

48:58 building a rwa thing right and what

49:01 what's the main what's the first thing

49:02 you need right you need access to like

49:05 users right and people use you and buy

49:07 your stuff right um You can you can be

49:10 on ethereum but minet because that's

49:12 actually where most liquidity is but

49:14 then your user base is going to be quite

49:16 limited because of the gas cost right

49:18 you can be on L2 but there very few

49:19 other tools that have sufficient

49:21 critical mass right you can build on S

49:23 OS right you know but or any other coso

49:25 chain which is fine you know but they

49:26 wouldn't have the same level of like

49:28 user adoption right so I feel like for

49:31 the next couple of years at least I feel

49:32 like um sonana is going to have

49:35 a I think new day right a really big

49:38 Advantage you know in being the only

49:40 chain that's performing enough with

49:41 critical mass of users and and guys by

49:43 the way the the fact the fact is that

49:45 like the the mcoin community and the

49:47 anti community and the PS Community is

49:49 very strong on and and it's the only CH

49:52 that has a really strong like mem coin

49:54 andart from minut right you know but

49:57 again minut has the issue of like you

49:59 know being used right but apart from

50:01 that think about it is the only that has

50:03 like a very strong an community

50:05 community and P community and training

50:07 Community right and I think that cannot

50:10 be understated in terms of new assets

50:12 coming on chain you guys are the three

50:15 of the most legendary builders on salana

50:18 no no no no you are by objectively just

50:21 by looking at the volume um you and

50:24 you're fully committ to salana you're

50:26 loyal to salana at least for now for the

50:29 for the foreseeable future now I want

50:31 you guys to Steelman ethereum what are

50:35 some of the things that are good about

50:36 ethereum that um you appreciate or or

50:40 maybe maybe even ask another way what

50:43 are some of the reasons why ethereum

50:44 would ultimately beat salana I think the

50:46 obvious one is liquidity Mode ethereum

50:49 still has a lot more liquidity and

50:51 ethereum also has a lot more mind share

50:53 with more mature in institutional

50:55 players I think if somebody seriously

50:57 thinks about storing Millions dollars of

51:00 uh like of onchain assets probably

51:02 ethereum is their number one choice

51:04 right now so I wouldn't underestimate

51:07 that and how difficult that is to

51:08 surmount I still think that I know that

51:11 like Santiago and some other guys are

51:13 saying like oh there's a good chance

51:14 salana beats ethereum I think that

51:16 chance is pretty small and I I think

51:18 like salana would really need to pull a

51:19 miracle for that to happen like

51:21 obviously we're going to work our asses

51:23 off to make that happen but at the end

51:24 of the day I think that chance is like

51:27 you know near like 50% or something and

51:30 I think it's basically that liquidity

51:31 mode developer mode as well better

51:33 tooling more developers like ethereum

51:35 has probably what four or five times

51:36 more developers and maybe one other

51:39 thing I observed

51:41 is often ethereum developers tend to be

51:44 a little bit more Mission driven and

51:48 that means that sometimes they're more

51:50 enduring and they build products that

51:53 maybe take a bit longer to build

51:56 but end up being a little bit more

51:57 interesting and I think salana Builders

51:59 have a little bit to learn there us

52:00 included yeah my perspective is so like

52:03 I mentioned with momentum compounding

52:06 for salana versus swen Aptos the same

52:08 thing applies for ethereum I think that

52:10 compounding effect is very hard it's

52:12 very hard for salana to catch up uh to

52:15 to the point where it can flip ethereum

52:17 uh the other thing is I'll give you an

52:20 example like angelist for example if you

52:22 want to like invest through crypto they

52:23 don't accept salana they don't accept

52:25 any anything else and that goes back to

52:26 like the idea that people just have that

52:28 narrative in their mind that ethereum is

52:30 more secure these big institutions who

52:32 do want to jump into crypto um and like

52:35 have some notion of like okay salana is

52:38 this newer chain ethereum is the

52:40 basically the first smart contract L1

52:41 that took off um probably better just

52:44 from a risk mitigation perspective to

52:46 just go on go with ethereum even though

52:48 it may cost their users a bit more

52:50 they're paying a premium for that

52:51 because of of risk I think on salana we

52:54 tend to and and I do this a lot on

52:56 Twitter um we tend to like trash

52:59 ethereum because it it's technically

53:01 like inferior in certain ways and you're

53:03 paying a lot more for gas fees but a

53:06 part of me thinks like at a certain

53:08 point ethereum will get to the the point

53:10 where the fees are a lot lower maybe

53:12 it's not like a penny of a penny but

53:14 it's uh you know a tenth of us a penny

53:17 um and that's like good enough for most

53:18 people and their moment their their

53:21 snowball is still big enough to capture

53:22 most of the Mind share and they'll do

53:24 fine in the long run we're starting to

53:26 see a new uh Behavior change with

53:28 Builders where they're starting to take

53:29 mini rollups or app rollups and they're

53:31 starting to pay for the customer fees so

53:34 like AO is an example who we interviewed

53:37 last podcast oh I love Julian Julian's

53:39 great I love julan um and love

53:42 you uh and so what he's doing is

53:45 specifically him um is they're using

53:47 data they're using different ways to

53:49 like make the fees cheaper to the point

53:51 where now that he's paying for all the

53:53 fees so customers don't see the fees at

53:55 all all and so they are like looking for

53:58 ways to compete with salana and ways

54:00 that can kind of give them similar

54:02 experiences so just just kind of a

54:04 thought to that yeah yeah I think um I I

54:07 love ethereum I mean you we we go way

54:09 back right yeah yeah way back and stuff

54:11 yeah done I mean w all stuff right that

54:13 right you know and uh and so um I I I

54:16 don't know I don't really see that as a

54:18 competition you know right I don't which

54:20 is why I feel set when I get trash Bor

54:23 by you but let's look at that I think

54:26 ethereum has a I mean if you go to like

54:30 Stanford boing week right you are you'll

54:32 be astonished right all these like

54:34 really top level researchers coming from

54:37 every single part of the world every

54:39 single institution and and they have

54:42 such a unique view of ethereum right you

54:44 know and just coming at all kinds of

54:46 angles right you don't see that not by

54:48 far right um the only the only

54:50 blockchain that can ever be that is

54:51 Bitcoin right just that the pure

54:53 diversity of like research just coming

54:56 in into solving uh all the different

54:58 problemss and everything you just don't

55:00 see that anywhere else right um so I

55:02 think that's actually one huge thing you

55:04 know Mer's trying to create that right

55:05 with the uh zerx M um I don't know that

55:10 they had a recent is mer is M right yeah

55:12 I know I I I think it's very it's from

55:14 Toronto The Hub of

55:17 crypto but he's trying to create like a

55:19 research more people to research for

55:22 right it's like a telegram group I'm not

55:24 in it cuz apparently not smart enough uh

55:26 so M whenever you think I'm I'm smart

55:28 enough add me into the bro if you're not

55:30 smart enough There's Hope for the rest

55:31 of us but he's trying to like recreate

55:33 some of this right it seems like yeah I

55:36 think it's very difficult good yeah

55:39 culture it's a different culture you

55:40 guys talked about engineering driven I

55:43 tweeted this I said salana is engineers

55:45 and ethereum is computer scientist and

55:47 somehow the ethereum Maxis were pissed

55:49 at that it's a [ __ ] compliment yeah

55:51 yeah yeah I don't know I mean anything

55:53 you say to them they'll get pissed right

55:56 but but but guys get to the point right

55:58 I I think I think I think the point here

55:59 is that like there's no go B right the

56:01 the fact that sa is so engine driven

56:03 right also means that you have a more

56:06 single source of failure right you know

56:07 whereas the ethereum is like very like

56:10 the whole the whole research arm is like

56:12 very decentralized at this point right U

56:14 it's a good thing I think I think the

56:16 other good thing is that I think we are

56:17 actually um seeing um so you know how we

56:21 talked about saana having like one big

56:23 Network everything right you know but

56:25 the good thing about l2s is that like um

56:28 um you know the two look at l2s right

56:31 when you spin on L2 you can think of ah

56:32 and I2 why the [ __ ] do we care right you

56:34 know wow N2 new tokens new Farms new

56:37 users right you know Ah that's a good

56:39 way to look at it no I have a tweet for

56:41 this I I didn't want to tweet it out cuz

56:43 that will piss off the ethereum Maxes

56:45 but that's exactly that's exactly the B

56:48 you already said that's exactly the B

56:51 bull case for precisely it's a bullas

56:54 it's very very hot for like there's no

56:56 way someone can go on sa right now and

56:58 and spin up a SP to S and be like hey

57:01 token it's very hard no one care right

57:02 you know but come on man on SP on2 you

57:06 copy V2

57:09 copy like no noct works works you you

57:13 you go now leing the next six months of

57:16 his road map right now I'm just saying

57:19 right it's like it's it's a bull case

57:21 right you know I'm say That's The Bu

57:22 case hey it's a bue not back the botc

57:25 case right and and and what that means

57:26 that gives you so much more room to

57:28 bootstrap an entirely new ecosystem

57:31 exactly see it's it's not it's not a

57:33 [ __ ] case it's a bookcase right it's a

57:35 bookcase you can you can go there go to

57:37 any part of the world and be like hey I

57:39 want to do a I want to do a um papini L2

57:43 right and and you I'm not I'm serious

57:46 right they'll go no I'm I'm serious and

57:48 then you can spin your own you spin your

57:50 own you can you can spin your own def

57:52 from scratch right and your own culture

57:54 own Community you can't do that on

57:55 salana Sal is a community already right

57:58 well I mean you could build rollups for

58:00 there's another actually benefit to all

58:01 TW and that's uh like segregation of

58:05 apps might actually be good yeah

58:07 precisely because if you have an app

58:09 that's doing a lot of damage to the

58:10 chain the problem with salana is even

58:13 though there's kind of local fee markets

58:15 they don't quite fully work right now

58:17 but the problem is like something like

58:19 drip which is like printing nfts in the

58:21 millions is actually kind of making our

58:24 life hard cuz we need to ingest all

58:26 those nfts and all of our data pipelines

58:27 right now and the benefit of these l2s

58:29 is that you take a very heavy app that

58:32 needs like a lot of the chain

58:33 capabilities and segment it away what

58:35 about like localized fee markets and

58:37 dimensionality that uh Anatolia talks

58:40 about does that do you guys how are you

58:41 guys thinking about that so actually one

58:43 actually it's not perfect yet right okay

58:45 but thankfully I think uh 1.1 and and we

58:47 we know because we do that a lot right

58:48 you we did a lot so I think 1.1 is going

58:50 to be a lot better right so the it's

58:53 actually it's not bin right it never

58:55 works perfectly right but the the thing

58:57 that I think over time it has wor it

58:58 worked better and better right and I

59:00 think the next the next major upgrade um

59:03 1.18 is supposed to be like the the

59:05 version that really makes it much better

59:07 you know yeah the everything interesting

59:09 you guys go ahead I was going to say

59:11 like in theory localized fee Market is

59:14 uh you're basically taking like parallel

59:17 parallelism to the extrem you optimize

59:20 the heck out of it in hardware and you

59:22 just hope that Hardware will scale to

59:23 the point where it can service basically

59:25 all state that will ever live on a

59:27 blockchain or live in you know

59:30 crypto yes like in theory that might

59:33 work um but they are practical

59:35 limitations like just engineering

59:37 bandwidth like salana they have a great

59:39 team engineering team but even then like

59:42 there are you know bugs come up uh they

59:44 might be like hampered by some other

59:45 like unrelated like performance thing

59:48 that they that to deal with um like the

59:51 Practical situation is they're they're

59:53 like roadblocks and and they're like

59:54 friction points as you sort of work

59:56 towards this vision of like localized

59:57 fee markets taking over um anything that

59:59 you need to do when it comes to parall

01:00:01 parallelization whereas I think like the

01:00:03 app chain model like you can sort of see

01:00:06 it working practically now and at a

01:00:08 certain point maybe we do need app

01:00:10 chains in order to act as that bridge

01:00:12 between the current state of like

01:00:14 localized fee markets and the perfect

01:00:16 theoretical model of localized fee

01:00:18 markets I mean to a I mean a is a good

01:00:21 example right you know it's like they

01:00:22 they take something that is like really

01:00:25 going to be extremely hard to build on

01:00:26 ethereum right you know and also

01:00:28 probably subject to a lot other

01:00:29 constraints on son right and just say

01:00:31 I'm going to be out to like very very

01:00:33 specific right you know for the given

01:00:34 purpose right you know um yeah and and I

01:00:36 feel like um that would be a good

01:00:38 probably a good model Al to in the end

01:00:41 it's like how do I create L2 that I

01:00:43 don't care about anything else nothing

01:00:46 El right and I don't care about like

01:00:47 what's happening onchain I don't care

01:00:48 about you know drip minting a million

01:00:50 things right so my honest answer is that

01:00:53 I have a bot case for both son eum right

01:00:55 my B case of salana is that I think uh I

01:00:58 think the the the world would seriously

01:01:00 move a big step forward when you have

01:01:01 all the use cases like payments and

01:01:03 remittances and transfers and all the

01:01:05 market and on one chain right because

01:01:08 there's no way that there there there's

01:01:09 no way that um you know multi chain uh

01:01:12 world can be as good as that right but

01:01:14 on the other hand as we discussed this

01:01:15 right is that there's also many many

01:01:17 many uh reasons right why um you know

01:01:20 including the ability to create a new

01:01:21 ecosystem with its on tokens ability to

01:01:24 kind of create a your own self-

01:01:26 resilient like use case right you know

01:01:28 and decentralization and everything that

01:01:31 will make it feasible right you know for

01:01:33 ethereum L2 ecosystem so I I'm a big boo

01:01:36 of both you know so yeah what I like

01:01:39 about um salana specifically is that um

01:01:43 you know there's a team that's like

01:01:45 focused on onboarding new use cases and

01:01:47 new users um and an example of this is

01:01:50 like token extensions right um a way to

01:01:52 create private transactions a way to

01:01:54 list rwas a way to do X I feel like

01:01:58 those are some interesting ways to

01:02:00 onboard new types of product Builders to

01:02:02 build some products around it what are

01:02:04 your thoughts on extensions I guess

01:02:05 maybe it's the pivot I it's super

01:02:07 bullish I extensions I think most people

01:02:11 underappreciate the power they unlock so

01:02:14 for those who don't know extensions are

01:02:15 basically these things that let you

01:02:17 create a token with like God powers like

01:02:20 it can do things like oh I'll only allow

01:02:23 this transfer if XY Z conditions are met

01:02:26 or oh this transfer is completely

01:02:28 private it's hidden or oh every time a

01:02:30 transfer happens some percentage of the

01:02:33 transferred funds is paid as royalty to

01:02:35 the Creator it just unlocks a swath of

01:02:37 use cases that are very hard to do for

01:02:40 token creators otherwise um it's a

01:02:44 library it's a set of smart contracts

01:02:46 that other people can can build on top

01:02:47 of sort of it's actually even easier

01:02:49 than that that it's basically a bunch of

01:02:50 methods you call when you create the

01:02:52 token so you don't even need a separate

01:02:54 smart contract for it it's baked into

01:02:56 the runtime itself okay nice um it's

01:02:58 super powerful this sort of goes back to

01:03:00 like the idea that salana is more

01:03:01 practical they're trying to meet the

01:03:03 real world where it is instead of sort

01:03:05 of a theoretical argument that maybe if

01:03:07 crypto eats you know the entire world

01:03:09 then this this system will work

01:03:11 perfectly but right now that's not the

01:03:13 case like a lot of people think a lot of

01:03:15 Institutions the biggest like kick uh

01:03:18 Kickback that they give crypto is they

01:03:20 can't do kyc y and the only way to do

01:03:22 kyc is maybe what you need swap did

01:03:25 where they introduced a transfer hook

01:03:26 specifically to UD swap but maybe not

01:03:28 other programs and yes like a lot of

01:03:30 people on ethereum basically fed it

01:03:32 because it's it's not decentralized

01:03:33 they're basically trying to corrupt

01:03:35 crypto but salana is seeing it from a

01:03:37 different perspective where their

01:03:39 mission is to onboard as many people to

01:03:41 into crypto and the only way to do that

01:03:43 is to meet in the middle with

01:03:44 institutions and give them these

01:03:46 transfer hooks give them a kyc hook in

01:03:48 order to like get people to build on

01:03:50 Salona it's funny uh the whole ERC 44

01:03:54 dilemma right where people that want to

01:03:56 introduce their own standards you really

01:03:58 can't there's a whole EIP process that

01:04:00 you know people have to go through just

01:04:02 to get some sort of like real world use

01:04:04 cases and on salana by introducing the

01:04:07 set of like libraries anyone can build

01:04:09 any types of use cases and I think

01:04:11 that's what ethereum should be doing

01:04:12 also the other big thing coming up in

01:04:14 salana is fire dancer and I have two

01:04:16 very important questions I've never been

01:04:17 able to find the answers to first

01:04:19 question is when and the second question

01:04:21 is how much how much faster um you guys

01:04:25 are Builders you may not know the answer

01:04:27 uh may or may not know the answer but

01:04:28 I'm curious if you have a view any rough

01:04:30 estimate on these two questions I'd be

01:04:33 lying to you if I knew when um it sounds

01:04:35 like it's right around the corner maybe

01:04:37 this year I think they might go on devet

01:04:39 from what I've heard in terms of TPS so

01:04:43 uh caveat this um a lot of like TPS

01:04:46 numbers you see in general for any chain

01:04:48 is completely like unrealistic it's just

01:04:50 like it kind of reminds me of like

01:04:52 benchmarking in like databases where

01:04:54 like you have like uh you have these

01:04:57 like very contrived artificial

01:04:58 benchmarks and they say like oh you know

01:05:00 this database can achieve a million TPS

01:05:02 but in practice like that's not the case

01:05:04 and I think that's the same with fire

01:05:06 dancer um where you know yes it can do 3

01:05:09 million TPS which is actually massive um

01:05:12 I think given real world use cases uh

01:05:14 it's still very bullish in that from

01:05:17 what I've heard if you just take all the

01:05:19 existing transactions on salana and try

01:05:21 to like plumet through fire dancer it

01:05:22 could probably get to like 10,000 20,000

01:05:25 30,000 easily which is a m which is

01:05:27 basically a 10x Improvement on currently

01:05:29 W

01:05:30 yeah our aw bill will go from 70k a

01:05:33 month to 700k a month people forget

01:05:37 that who has to inest all that data

01:05:40 might not though the real the real the

01:05:41 real beneficiary from all of this is

01:05:44 Bezos yeah yeah for sure no it's funny

01:05:47 because he said that your revenu goes up

01:05:49 it's not necessary because like when no

01:05:51 no no guys it's actually really

01:05:52 interesting because um people always

01:05:55 think that like a data equals more

01:05:56 Revenue right or something and no that's

01:05:57 not true because like U when when your

01:06:00 cost of um uh putting data on chain

01:06:02 becomes much lower right what increases

01:06:05 spam yeah spam right so it's like so so

01:06:09 as Builders right we actually dealing

01:06:10 with a lot of spam you know right

01:06:12 literally right it's like like um like

01:06:14 for example like 20 but 20 tokens

01:06:16 account for like the vast majority

01:06:18 trading volume right you know but they

01:06:19 like a good gillion tokens that we have

01:06:21 to K to everyone right you know and and

01:06:24 yeah

01:06:26 aw yeah but actually on this point of

01:06:28 answer right I think um um I think um I

01:06:32 feel like people are and and correct me

01:06:34 wrong okay but I feel like people are

01:06:36 are somewhat like obsessed with the TPS

01:06:38 numbers and all these things but I feel

01:06:40 like the the the real benefit here is

01:06:42 around like diversity right it's going

01:06:44 to be the first it's going to be a first

01:06:46 chain that one of the first change

01:06:48 besides Bitcoin ethereum uh that has

01:06:50 like a entirely different valid data you

01:06:52 know system but not this is not good or

01:06:55 bad it's more complicated you know like

01:06:58 how will these two vators work in

01:07:00 practice together you know right right

01:07:01 you have one that's much faster than the

01:07:03 other how do they and one that's more

01:07:05 proven than the other right you know I'm

01:07:06 saying right so I I think the the answer

01:07:08 is that we don't know right you know

01:07:09 right I think we we can probably find

01:07:11 answers if you look at ethereums how

01:07:13 ethereum has done in the past you know

01:07:16 yeah like like how they've done stuff

01:07:18 but I think um yeah but um I I have no

01:07:21 idea how the two TPS systems would kind

01:07:23 of hang out you know together so what I

01:07:26 want to know is do I get points if I'm

01:07:28 going to

01:07:31 run fire dollar fire let's go exactly

01:07:34 hey there w w andp for you want a fire

01:07:38 let Hey fire on my fire the Practical

01:07:40 concern is um so I think if fire dancer

01:07:44 is really pushing 10x if not more TPS

01:07:47 than the original client then you can

01:07:50 imagine all these validators would just

01:07:51 move the fire dancer because they can

01:07:52 make 10x yeah I think this is how it

01:07:54 works they can make 10x the transaction

01:07:56 fees and then you sort of like perhaps

01:07:58 see this big shift of people just moving

01:08:00 to another client and you you don't get

01:08:02 that client diversity that's my Layman

01:08:05 view of it maybe it's actually different

01:08:07 um but that's like maybe one um one

01:08:10 sticking point that might come up in the

01:08:12 client diversity argument interesting

01:08:14 interesting this actually so again like

01:08:16 going back to like we kind of spoke

01:08:18 about other blockchains coming online I

01:08:20 kind of feel it's pretty hard for them

01:08:21 right now because I feel there's like

01:08:24 two like counterposing spots the same

01:08:28 way that there's two in Mobile there's

01:08:29 two in operating systems and I feel the

01:08:31 T in blockchains are slower but more

01:08:34 decentralized and faster but more kind

01:08:37 um maybe not centralized but like just

01:08:39 different build differently more focused

01:08:41 more focused more focused yeah and uh

01:08:44 good one but yeah so I guess what I'm

01:08:46 getting at is well holy [ __ ] like Su or

01:08:48 rtos better have like a connection to

01:08:50 jump to build another fire dancer right

01:08:52 cuz like this thing took what years in

01:08:54 the making and it's going to go online

01:08:56 and it's going to be really hard to

01:08:57 compete with and so I don't know

01:08:59 actually I don't know if there's going

01:09:00 to be a third blockchain that pops the

01:09:02 same way these two did the distant third

01:09:04 right now is Cosmos like the if you view

01:09:07 like the the tradeoff areas in in the 3D

01:09:10 di uh you know visualization then they

01:09:12 have ethereum ethereum orth orthogonal

01:09:15 to salana but then there's a third

01:09:17 dimension which is Cosmos which provides

01:09:19 a lot of customizability M like app

01:09:22 chains right yeah app chains but big

01:09:24 apps right are you

01:09:26 fing I mean no I can't I can't speak my

01:09:29 mind about polka dot I just empirically

01:09:31 if you look at the data of great

01:09:34 Founders building on polka dot it's been

01:09:36 going downhill they've been leaving

01:09:38 polka dot you guys have an idea of why

01:09:40 let's say polka dot or even uh what's

01:09:42 the other one the other ethereum founder

01:09:45 cardano

01:09:50 cardano why did they not take off at all

01:09:53 I don't know I have two hypothesis I

01:09:55 have no idea if it's true or not I love

01:09:58 that I love that I have one idea too

01:09:59 let's hear it let's hear it okay polka

01:10:02 dot uh gold market for so every chain

01:10:05 for every chain their customers are

01:10:06 developers basically um polka Dot's gold

01:10:09 market first gold market they went

01:10:12 for in my experience very mercenary

01:10:16 developers and that was like Peak Zer

01:10:18 Peak 2020 2021 there were a lot of

01:10:21 developers that were not missionary

01:10:23 they're very mercenary they build on

01:10:24 polka dot for to make it quick buck and

01:10:27 the moment the the bull market died the

01:10:30 whole Zer died they just went away so

01:10:32 they lost their developer community so

01:10:36 you and I spoke with quite a few uh

01:10:38 polka do developers from back in the day

01:10:39 in that era era and we just didn't see

01:10:43 uh in terms of quality of developers

01:10:45 building on polka dot there's certainly

01:10:47 the quality is certainly there but the

01:10:49 quality was never um on par with salana

01:10:52 and if you're in and Cosmos I also think

01:10:54 it was the way you secure the par chains

01:10:56 was the biggest issue yes that that was

01:10:58 my other argument okay yeah so like yeah

01:11:00 I mean like for in order for you to have

01:11:02 a parir chain you need people to stake

01:11:04 their Dot and they go through this oying

01:11:06 process you have to hit a a certain

01:11:08 threshold and it's like it went to like

01:11:10 50 million I mean it was really hard to

01:11:12 compete yep and so only very few people

01:11:14 were able to secure that much dot to

01:11:16 secure the chain and I think it was like

01:11:18 three or four and then it kind of fell

01:11:20 off from there that was a self-owned

01:11:21 like they didn't have to do this they

01:11:23 they did this because they wanted to

01:11:25 have some kind of

01:11:26 value Tok precisely precisely actually

01:11:29 so um so that I mean that's that's the

01:11:32 main thing right is that I I feel like

01:11:34 it became a system where by like um

01:11:37 everyone became working for the dot

01:11:39 holders as working for their own thing

01:11:40 they were trying to like sell me like

01:11:42 come on just take your I'm like dude

01:11:43 just remember those those Builders who

01:11:45 pitched us yeah they they asked they

01:11:48 told us if you want an allocation in our

01:11:49 product you need to stay some dot

01:11:52 exactly back in the day it completely

01:11:55 reversed like the founders should be

01:11:56 thinking about themselves not the

01:11:57 product not the product they're building

01:11:58 on precisely yeah precisely precisely so

01:12:00 I think that was a sec yeah so the

01:12:02 that's the other so you end up you end

01:12:04 up Founders that were really good at

01:12:07 talking because you had to go to all the

01:12:09 dot holders and be pitch yourself and hi

01:12:11 I'm so great at everything right so I

01:12:13 feel like it created a system where

01:12:14 besides mercenary you have people that

01:12:16 promise a lot of run right and not just

01:12:18 that so they promis a lot of run but

01:12:19 they also to offer a lot of run right

01:12:21 you know so what what what end up was

01:12:23 off actually offer a lot right you know

01:12:25 to the to the do holders right and

01:12:27 obviously you know what happens in the

01:12:28 end yeah I also think the team kind of

01:12:30 lost their magic like I think the token

01:12:32 went live people think people got rich

01:12:35 and you could tell like you know we we

01:12:37 worked pretty closely with the polka dot

01:12:38 team and um you know they kind of I felt

01:12:41 like they lost the like the the

01:12:44 competitiveness the hunger like when you

01:12:46 talk to anoli like I'm like God like

01:12:48 it's like he just started his startup

01:12:50 like he's so hungry that the [ __ ] is

01:12:51 like talking about DUI it's like like

01:12:54 going all day long oh I'm going to dup

01:12:55 the Dual poly you know of like Apple and

01:12:57 Google I'm like what the hell you know

01:12:59 I'm like do where this come

01:13:01 from but it's amazing he's like calling

01:13:04 everybody hello how do you do these

01:13:05 things I have one question that I'm

01:13:08 curious to get your guys's stes on so

01:13:10 obviously today crypto is super tribal

01:13:12 each blockchain is basically its own

01:13:14 little Nation with like Patriots do you

01:13:16 guys think 10 years from now uh it's

01:13:18 still going to be tribal I think as long

01:13:21 as there's a token they will be tribal

01:13:23 yeah me too I think it'll get more

01:13:24 tribal more tribal wow it'll get worse I

01:13:27 I I think I I I racism

01:13:30 but religion it's religion but with

01:13:33 money at least for the intellectually

01:13:34 honest people uh which is like you two

01:13:36 guys right clearly you guys started off

01:13:38 on ethereum and actually M too you guys

01:13:40 started off on ethereum but we were

01:13:42 super open-minded on salana right and

01:13:43 that's why you guys accepted us into

01:13:45 accelerator um I think if if you if you

01:13:48 fundamentally believe that this chain is

01:13:50 different enough and offers like some

01:13:52 unique value prop that eum let's say

01:13:53 doesn't offer uh you don't care about

01:13:56 like being traveled to like ethereum all

01:13:58 the way through just because you made a

01:13:59 massive bag on ethereum yeah I mean for

01:14:01 me it's just coping

01:14:03 right it's an anti- cope effect for me I

01:14:06 feel like I actually feel like toally um

01:14:09 has a really um and probably they have a

01:14:11 pretty healthy mind on these things

01:14:13 right they kind of know that like okay

01:14:14 whatever we do there's always going to

01:14:15 be other things around right you know so

01:14:17 it's pretty important to just have open

01:14:19 mindset on things right so I feel like

01:14:21 um I feel like tensor and ass are

01:14:22 probably as well you know it's not about

01:14:24 like being Maxi um it's just about

01:14:27 recognizing what we want to build and

01:14:28 what's good what was good right you know

01:14:30 yeah so I feel like um yeah that's yeah

01:14:32 it's like when people ask us is stener

01:14:35 planning to move off salana and we say

01:14:37 no it's actually mainly driven by the

01:14:40 fact that there's just so much to build

01:14:42 on salana and we just we just want to

01:14:44 build it like why would we leave there's

01:14:46 like so much design space now is that

01:14:48 answer going to be the same 10 years

01:14:50 from now I don't know maybe not right

01:14:52 maybe there's the new you know not Lana

01:14:54 chain and we go there I don't know but

01:14:56 like at least right now there's like

01:14:58 hyper unexplored design space on salana

01:15:00 to go play with it's very simil thing

01:15:02 for us right I feel like the the main

01:15:04 thing for us is that we want to provide

01:15:06 deep value right and you have to provide

01:15:08 deep value when you are spread out you

01:15:10 know you actually want to like say Hey

01:15:12 how do and also not just that I think

01:15:13 you guys know right it's like I feel

01:15:14 like another thing that real Builders

01:15:16 know that other people don't is that a

01:15:18 lot of times value is from being

01:15:20 embedded in in the ecosystem you know

01:15:23 right it's not when you go to Anar

01:15:25 system the tech can be the same can be

01:15:26 same but you not it's not same because

01:15:28 the ecosystem is different right so I

01:15:30 feel like for us right now I think we

01:15:31 have this like very deep Connection in

01:15:32 the community ecosystem right you know

01:15:35 right and I think that that's actually

01:15:36 really big for us right you know and for

01:15:37 me personally you guys know right I've

01:15:39 been working on multichain for a long

01:15:40 time right so so for us is so for me

01:15:43 it's not so much like okay I would I I

01:15:44 think not so much I don't think makes

01:15:46 sense for us to like build chain right

01:15:48 you know but finding ways to kind of

01:15:50 like connect other change that's a

01:15:51 pretty big topic for us you know so

01:15:53 question for you guys um what are your

01:15:56 thoughts on U blur launching blast the

01:15:59 founder I think Pac-Man is solving a

01:16:01 problem that he has right now sounds

01:16:04 like a very political

01:16:05 answer what problem is that huh what

01:16:07 problem is that well he wants to build

01:16:10 uh a per product or like more advanced

01:16:13 Primitives and ethereum is too slow for

01:16:15 him and he saw an opportunity to

01:16:16 verticalized and on the entire stack and

01:16:19 I respect that because when you

01:16:20 verticalized and on the entire stack you

01:16:22 can build things that other people can't

01:16:24 build dydx did did the same thing now do

01:16:27 I think the whole multi multi drama is

01:16:30 the way it should have been done I mean

01:16:31 probably no but like the decision of a

01:16:33 builder to go verticalized and build an

01:16:35 apple esque experience holy [ __ ] let's

01:16:37 go I think that's awesome uh I'm going

01:16:39 to take a different take and that is I

01:16:42 think he also saw this massive

01:16:44 opportunity which is to build an L2 that

01:16:47 just I guess I don't know what you call

01:16:49 it like reaking or you you natively

01:16:51 stake when you bridge over it's already

01:16:52 stake

01:16:54 beautiful so elant makes so much sense

01:16:57 like why would you build or why would

01:16:59 users use arbitrum or optimism where

01:17:01 they're not earning no yield Naturally

01:17:03 by using all these protocols like Unis

01:17:04 swap when you just pour it over to blast

01:17:07 and just earn like you know 3% 4% yield

01:17:09 people were so upset about blast but but

01:17:11 this thing alone the native yield is

01:17:14 really elegant and and that just speaks

01:17:16 to me that that taon the founder of Blas

01:17:19 and blur is one of the handful people

01:17:21 who who truly understand the Deens

01:17:23 like he understand the users better than

01:17:25 anyone else yeah yeah I mean whenever

01:17:26 you get a polarizing reaction you're on

01:17:27 to something the the worst one is when

01:17:29 you do a product job and nobody cares

01:17:32 people are like doing

01:17:34 good yeah whenever you get a polarizing

01:17:37 reaction you know you're onto something

01:17:39 if people just give you a thumbs up and

01:17:41 they're like this is cool well then

01:17:43 they're going to forget about you the

01:17:44 next five minutes but if if half of the

01:17:46 people can't live without it and half

01:17:47 the people think you're a dumbass then

01:17:49 you're definitely definitely it goes

01:17:50 back to like crypto is part building the

01:17:53 future of Finance but also part

01:17:55 entertainment where in entertainment you

01:17:57 don't want to be someone in the middle

01:17:58 right you don't want to be like

01:17:59 non-controversial you don't want to have

01:18:01 like mid curve takes you want to either

01:18:04 be on the extremely like like positive

01:18:06 side of things like optimistic side of

01:18:08 things or you want to be a pessimist

01:18:10 that's why every day I either wake up

01:18:11 laughing or crying nice both my version

01:18:14 of that is the evening shower uh so I

01:18:17 always I I always take that evening

01:18:19 shower and I'm always staring at the

01:18:20 wall and I'm always either too [ __ ]

01:18:23 worried to fall asleep or I'm too

01:18:26 ecstatic to fall asleep and I'm just

01:18:28 like standing there in the shower for

01:18:29 like an hour just like staring at the wi

01:18:30 wall that's why I love crypto I'll never

01:18:32 leave it yeah I actually think so I

01:18:35 don't think people outside of crypto

01:18:37 realize how much more you're taking on

01:18:39 as a Founder in crypto well like in web

01:18:41 2 you have all the problems of hiring

01:18:44 operations fundraising uh product Market

01:18:47 fit like all of that stuff in crypto you

01:18:49 have all of that and you're a public

01:18:52 speaker and and you're a public Persona

01:18:54 and you're running a community and you

01:18:56 have to deal with regulations and

01:18:57 securities and legal and like it is

01:19:00 basically like two three jobs combined

01:19:03 in one and I don't know like if I knew

01:19:05 everything right now uh if I knew

01:19:07 everything I know right now would I

01:19:09 start a crypto startup yeah I definitely

01:19:11 have to like think about it I don't know

01:19:12 well I mean the fact that there's so

01:19:14 much you have to consider as a Founder

01:19:16 going to the space and we saw like a

01:19:18 bunch of like Founders actually leave

01:19:19 crypto and go into AI they so many so

01:19:22 many they're like [ __ ] this I'm

01:19:24 out for us like I mean that's an

01:19:26 opportunity right because there's less

01:19:28 competition um and the upside is much

01:19:31 higher right because now you're uh

01:19:32 building on this hyper financialized

01:19:35 platform if you will or technology

01:19:37 hyperconnected right in the first place

01:19:38 yeah hyperconnected um and like the

01:19:40 opportunity is massive for us right yeah

01:19:42 so it's I think it's worth it yeah I

01:19:44 guess we'll find out what is the future

01:19:47 of tenzer I know the future of Jupiter

01:19:49 at least you told you mentioned which is

01:19:51 like getting more start like real world

01:19:54 uh assets on chain as an example like or

01:19:57 sorry like stocks right like pink sheets

01:20:00 right I just not really real numbers but

01:20:03 just like I think the whole whole point

01:20:05 here is that what is like um how do we

01:20:08 get as many like market and assets and

01:20:10 use cases on the one chain as possible

01:20:13 right you know and do including like

01:20:15 including can we really bring like

01:20:17 listing right on chin right I think that

01:20:19 was huge you know you can do that

01:20:21 because I I I think I think if we start

01:20:23 doing those if start doing those three

01:20:24 things um firstly migration can we

01:20:27 actually get enough people to migrate

01:20:29 right on chain right secondly like can

01:20:31 we get enough like because for example

01:20:32 in the real world right for example the

01:20:34 NASDAQ and CME and all these things

01:20:36 they're fundamentally fragmented right

01:20:38 you know but Forex are fragmented but

01:20:41 then on chain on chain they the same

01:20:43 thing we don't care you know right the

01:20:45 onchain the CME the next that the for

01:20:47 Mar can Le in one one transaction it's

01:20:49 amazing right I mean from anyone who is

01:20:51 like in traditional Finance they go wow

01:20:53 holy [ __ ] it's like you have all these

01:20:55 things on chain in one market fully

01:20:57 transparent and the whole transaction

01:20:59 cost like 0.2 right and all the fees and

01:21:01 everything is fully transparent right so

01:21:03 I feel like that's second thing right

01:21:04 can we really bring as many markets on

01:21:06 chain as possible right and thirdly is

01:21:08 that andly is that like okay um when it

01:21:11 comes to stocks I don't really think of

01:21:13 it as like I I I I I think a real game

01:21:15 here is not really in bring n on chain I

01:21:18 think a real game here is can we

01:21:19 actually make make it such that people

01:21:21 want to list on chain instead right and

01:21:24 don't me I'm saying easy right you know

01:21:26 I do want to run this

01:21:29 you companies traditional companies

01:21:33 listing on on Jupiter yeah uh yes and

01:21:36 then and then so so Jupiter providing

01:21:37 the uh the framework right know for that

01:21:39 to happen right you know and and and and

01:21:41 guys we actually have enough like d that

01:21:43 will a in I'll in D will a into anything

01:21:47 anything will precisely so I I feel like

01:21:49 right now so I I do want to run the

01:21:50 pilot this year yeah you know right but

01:21:52 I I think the way to do is not to say

01:21:53 hey let's do it right way but more like

01:21:55 a pilot right so um I think the future

01:21:57 of Jupiter is quite simple I think first

01:21:58 of all I think we just need to execute

01:22:00 really well on things that already have

01:22:02 right you know uh including a launch pad

01:22:03 including the all the products right the

01:22:05 first thing right uh and then the the

01:22:07 longer term is around like either M

01:22:09 chain right you know right but not not

01:22:11 not bringup our chains but more like how

01:22:13 do we kind like make it easier to

01:22:16 transact between chains right different

01:22:18 things okay I don't think we'll ever go

01:22:19 like Jupiter on we do that um and

01:22:22 thirdly like okay can we do the more

01:22:24 futuristic stuff you know right can we

01:22:25 really think about how do we say what

01:22:27 are like the most um what what what are

01:22:29 the most like common pin points right of

01:22:31 CI right you know and how you solve them

01:22:33 on chain right you know so that's

01:22:35 actually something I'm really interested