00:00hi everyone welcome to the a 6nz podcast
00:02I'm sonal and I'm here today with Margot
00:04van mockers who runs the marketing team
00:07at Andreessen Horowitz is an operating
00:09partner and co-founded one of Silicon
00:12Valley's top PR agencies Outkast and I'm
00:15here at Kim milosevic who used to work
00:18at Outkast did PR at Skype and multiple
00:22other places and is a partner at
00:25Andreessen Horowitz who covers some of
00:27the most interesting companies actually
00:29in our portfolio anyway okay you guys
00:31welcome you work with our founders
00:32everyday and a lot of them have
00:33questions about first off why do I need
00:35PR or I want PR and so I'd like to hear
00:37your thoughts from like some of the best
00:39opportunities for doing PR I mean
00:41there's some obvious times to do it but
00:42maybe it's not so obvious I think at one
00:44level PR is a good forcing function for
00:47the CEO and the rest of the team to
00:50really figure out what is your story and
00:51your story is very very important
00:53because the story is the company and it
00:56doesn't just help you get the article in
00:58TechCrunch or The New Yorker both of
00:59which are great but it helps you with
01:01recruiting and retention helps you raise
01:03money it helps you explain yourself to
01:05customers overall it's an important
01:07thing to be able to know how to do even
01:09if you don't want to get articles at one
01:11point or another right look at you might
01:13be a founder who doesn't necessarily
01:14have a big name already and you can't
01:15just recruit on your own brand name so
01:17you may have to actually have people
01:19look you up and see that you're
01:20legitimate it's a very competitive
01:21environment yeah and I think one of the
01:24things I talked to a lot of our founders
01:25about is that you have very few moments
01:28especially in your early life as a
01:30company where you have news and so when
01:33you're dealing with like a funding
01:35announcement a company launch a product
01:37launch a big customer announcement those
01:39are the announcements that you really
01:40have to make the most out of because the
01:42rest of the time it's gonna be figuring
01:44out how do you get yourself into the
01:46existing conversation and how to
01:47maximize that so it's sort of like how
01:50do you figure out how to make the most
01:52of those few moments where you do have
01:54something to actually announce this
01:57morning we had a conversation with a
01:58founder and she was like well we do
02:00continuous release there's no product
02:02announcement so we can still sort of
02:03bundle five important things and create
02:06an announcement you create a moment in
02:08time where people is like oh maybe I
02:09should pay attention to this company
02:11because what they're doing is really
02:13the big important stories I have nothing
02:15to do with the news announcement exact
02:17that's just a way of going and talking
02:19to a reporter and saying here's why that
02:21company is interesting and has nothing
02:22to do with a new cycle you know on the
02:24flip side coming from a media background
02:26when you get a lot of pitches from
02:27people saying stuff like oh I have this
02:29announcement we hire this person I'm
02:31like I don't really care and no one else
02:32does but I think what you're saying in
02:34terms of it's an opportunity to get in
02:35front of journalists and build a
02:37relationship that's definitely a
02:38valuable mindset right because a lot of
02:39the media they're covering a million
02:41things they've got a busy plate they're
02:43covering you know not just the startup
02:44stuff they're covering the Apple
02:45announcements that Google announcements
02:47all of that and so they have to
02:48prioritize it and so if you come to them
02:49with like and we're launching this
02:51product this company this then it gives
02:53them I think a little bit more of excuse
02:54to sit down and also to give them a
02:56timely moment to put pen to paper you
02:58know I had an interesting conversation
02:59with one of our founders yesterday where
03:01you know a lot of these founders are
03:03doing more with blogging which I really
03:05encourage and one of them particular was
03:07saying that using medium as a vehicle to
03:10talk about what they're doing as a
03:11company wasn't just useful for them to
03:13get it out there to the public but it
03:15was also really useful vehicle for them
03:17to reinforce all this stuff internally
03:19yeah it's like it's funny it's all the
03:20same stuff I'm saying to the company but
03:22I put it in a medium post and I write it
03:23down like yes okay share it and it just
03:28somehow sinks in a bit more so it's it's
03:31also a really valuable internal
03:33communications tool no matter how big
03:35your company is as Ben will say no one
03:37will read your blog post more carefully
03:39and sometimes more clearly than the
03:41people that work here at this firm so
03:43how do you balance when a company wants
03:45to stay in stealth mode and it could be
03:46for various reasons and I want to also
03:48begin by us defining what stealth is
03:50because there are versions of stealth
03:52where you're actually not really
03:52stealthy so what's up with that there's
03:55a pretend cell for people walk around
03:57and they say we're in stealth but they
03:58have a full website up and whatnot I
03:59think that qualifies that I think
04:03there's still stealth we can start there
04:06which is there's you know maybe a
04:08landing page but they're not actively
04:11out there promoting themselves which I
04:13feel like is really hard to do in this
04:14day and age anymore yeah but people do
04:16do it and well actually a common stealth
04:18situation that we see is
04:20let's say ray some funding they want to
04:24announce the funding mainly to help them
04:26with recruiting yeah I'm sort of
04:28building you know a great team they
04:30don't go have a product jet or they have
04:32a product that has to go through a long
04:33regulatory approval process which I'm
04:35seeing more of now that we have our bio
04:37Fund and so they need to kind of get
04:39something out there start talking about
04:40who they are but then they probably want
04:42to go quite a bit for you know six
04:44months to a year until they have the
04:47product which I usually agree with
04:49because if you don't have a product if
04:51you're not ready to start going out
04:53there and promoting the thing heavily
04:54and drawing consumers in let's say it's
04:56a closed beta product for example it
04:58doesn't make sense for you to go too
04:59crazy on the PR side yet that strategy
05:01can work so that's probably the most
05:02common stealth situation I see I want to
05:05pick on something for a moment before we
05:06continue with this delt and not stealth
05:08discussion which is companies
05:10really be doing any kind of PR if they
05:12don't have a product like what are the
05:13pros and cons well I think if you're an
05:16enterprise software company for example
05:17you have long sales cycles and you want
05:19to start engaging in the market and you
05:21want to start talking to cio
05:22so you really want to be out there
05:24because i'm take your while to close
05:25those deals so i think there are lots of
05:27reasons to engage there's also reasons
05:29to engage and let's say you're an
05:31operating in completely new category and
05:33you need to quote-unquote evangelize
05:35like why people should be thinking about
05:36this category differently like there's
05:39lots of reasons to do it I think the
05:41point that came a that that is super
05:43important it's like the Delta between
05:45where you are today and what vision you
05:48highlight and how much you put yourself
05:50out there shouldn't be too big because
05:52then you're just the hype machine and
05:53you lose credibility right but if you
05:56are actually doing here with your
05:59product and your shipping what not but
06:01nobody knows about you you're really
06:02punching under your weight and you're
06:03leaving money on the table and that's
06:04just a shame that's great so what about
06:06this case I'm so going back to the
06:08stealth in this case of companies that
06:10are public but they want to keep a low
06:11profile and and I'm thinking of cases
06:13where companies are trying to build a
06:15network effect and part of that strategy
06:16might be keeping it on the down-low
06:18while they go and do that how do you
06:19navigate that on the PR side I think
06:21it's entirely case-by-case I see that
06:24happen more often when a small company
06:26is in a very very competitive space with
06:30incumbents who are innovating and could
06:33very quickly squash them if they wanted
06:35to so it makes sense for some of those
06:37folks to really build the base get the
06:40viral loop in and working for quite some
06:44time and have like a you know pretty
06:46good sized user number before they start
06:48kicking in the PR side of things there
06:51are other things that they could look at
06:52doing if there are specific markets that
06:54they're trying to go after let's say
06:56college they might be able to do some
06:59more on the ground type efforts might be
07:02more marketing or more on the ad side
07:04even than PR and there's different forms
07:06appear doesn't necessarily mean that you
07:08have to go out and do a huge press tour
07:10and talk to 50 folks it might mean just
07:13putting out a really good blog post
07:14explaining who you are so there's this
07:17reference point so if recruiting is a
07:19big goal of yours people could come to
07:21your site and they know what you're
07:23about and you know if you do a few
07:25interviews you're out there a bit more
07:26and people have more reference points to
07:28understand kind of like who you are what
07:30you're about your approach like that
07:32stuff can be useful to you early on so
07:34there might be some ways for you to do
07:37some level of PR where you're talking
07:38about how you see the world that don't
07:41necessarily mean hyping your product one
07:44potential big downside of not doing any
07:46PR regardless of what market you're in
07:48is that you don't define you but then
07:51someone else does either the competition
07:53or someone who just doesn't know your
07:56story or your version of the story and
07:58that I think is a big risk if you just
08:01leave it up to the world to define you
08:03how do you advise companies to think
08:05about PR in this broader competitive
08:07landscape Marc Benioff in Salesforce is
08:09a really great example of that because
08:10he was walking into an incredibly
08:12competitive space and was so effective
08:15in creating this narrative you know
08:17punching above their weight and kind of
08:20rattling the competition the strong
08:22incumbents to say that this is there's a
08:24way that this can be done differently
08:26what is important to know though is that
08:29that's who Marc Benioff is he so he's
08:30like sort of leaning into his strengths
08:32we always like to say you shouldn't try
08:34to be somebody you're not
08:35so don't then say like oh I'm gonna take
08:37a page from that book and do exactly
08:38that because it's like well that's sort
08:40of very specific and personal to him I
08:42think a lot of people sort of said like
08:43in Peoria because I don't want to tip
08:45off my competition I think that's sort
08:47of excuse for I don't know how to do PR
08:50it also is not that convincing because
08:52if your isn't three times as good
08:54or ten times as good or faster or
08:56cheaper than the competition's then like
08:58they will catch you and like there's no
09:01amount of secrecy the competition is
09:03gonna watch you now there are exceptions
09:05instacart did a really great job of
09:07getting the local stores and then
09:09getting whole foods and whatnot and that
09:11is important to their business because I
09:13have to have the supply of the local
09:14stores that people enjoy shopping at
09:16right so you may not want to do the big
09:18announcement until you've done those
09:20deals I will say I always encourage our
09:22CEOs and anybody who gives me a chance
09:25to talk about this it's like just don't
09:27not do it because you're afraid of it
09:31yes oh you don't want to learn how to do
09:33it it's obviously natural for a CEO not
09:35to know how to do this but you can
09:37totally learn it I bet something really
09:38interesting about the local exception so
09:40one question I have for you guys is we
09:42think about tech as like software eating
09:44the world but sometimes that world
09:45begins in a very local marketplace or a
09:48local market the local question has
09:50gotten harder so it can be pretty
09:52expensive if you have news it's good
09:54enough for a wire story that's always
09:56fabulous now but I think then the story
09:57can't be purely local I sort of think
10:00local PR is what you get out of it for
10:02what you have to put into it it's a
10:04tough equation and in a lot of cases if
10:05you're saying I want a local approach in
10:07every state across the country then
10:09certainly it's probably not gonna work
10:11that well and it's gonna be incredibly
10:12expensive but I think if you let's say
10:15have a product that is very local in
10:17nature like open dev is a good example
10:19where they're going after these you know
10:21specific municipalities like cities and
10:23state governments and they're able to
10:25get some good you know customer success
10:28stories in those specific situations
10:30then I think those are very important
10:32case studies for the county or city
10:34nearby and if they are trying to tackle
10:37a particular geography then I think they
10:39can be pretty specific about how they go
10:41after it but if you're thinking oh we've
10:43got you know this consumer product that
10:45we can sell anywhere and we're trying to
10:47get the local people in each place it's
10:50like well then you might as well do a
10:51national campaign and the more you have
10:53developed your independent direct
10:54channel the more you can do there
10:57in smaller markets and so just to
10:59clarify that when you guys talk about
11:01you know being able to own your own
11:02narrative what's the difference between
11:04talking to a reporter
11:05putting out your own blog post to
11:07putting out a press release I mean do we
11:08even like press releases I used to
11:09always read things about die press
11:11release die there were a snow money
11:12where some tongue no one reads them
11:13unless you're a public company and it's
11:15for public filing purposes but I think
11:17that's even James Wright blog post code
11:21so the way I think about the press and
11:24blogging is that you want to do both
11:26the press has an important function
11:28which is to kind of inspect the world
11:29and the companies that are in it and the
11:31technologies and whatnot having
11:33relationships religion open dialogue
11:34it's just a very good practice right
11:36because that will happen no matter
11:37whether you choose to or not but then
11:39the other thing is sometimes you are at
11:42odds with the presses view of things and
11:45your own view of your things and it's
11:47very very useful to have a direct
11:49channel where you can tell your story
11:50your way and at least for the record
11:54from you this is how you see this issue
11:57or this problem or this product or what
11:59not so I think both are important okay
12:01so a frequently asked question is when
12:02is the best time in timing wise for a
12:05start-up founder to bring in a PR agency
12:07the one thing to know is that PR is not
12:10a transactional thing it is a long-term
12:13thing it's much more like enterprise
12:15sales rather than anything else so it's
12:17really hard to do as a project there are
12:19exceptions to that but it's a long-term
12:22thing that is very much to do with
12:25telling a story over time a reporter
12:27will not listen to a pitch whether it's
12:31from a PR person or anyone and go like
12:33oh let me just write this down there are
12:35exceptions to the rule like your famous
12:37well-known founder you know that's
12:39different you're in the news all the
12:42oh you have huge news but in general
12:44people want to discover the story over
12:47time and they're not sitting there to
12:49take dictation it's just not how it
12:51works so if you're not like an apple or
12:52like a super famous founder you
12:54basically need to have this long
12:56relationship and they think the other
12:59thing people get confused is that
13:00everybody has a relationship so the PR
13:02person the CEO I want to push on this
13:04one for a second because I'll push yeah
13:06because I read somewhere that founders
13:08should maintain their own PR
13:09relationships like you actually should
13:11be going through a PR person because it
13:13sort of creates this middle layer I'd
13:15love to hear your guys's thoughts on
13:16that they ultimately are the ones who
13:18are talking to the press and telling
13:20their story and should be maintaining
13:22the relationship with the media ongoing
13:25but many of the founders I've never done
13:28PR marketing any of that before so
13:31having an expert who actually knows how
13:33to pitch the media has some of those
13:35relationships built already and can
13:37leverage them on behalf of the founder
13:39is a great way to start the founder is
13:41running a business so to expect them to
13:43be you know the perfect PR person the
13:44perfect sales person the perfect
13:46operations person an engineer all those
13:48things in one I think it's probably just
13:49a little too much to ask that's why I
13:51pay somebody to actually maintain those
13:53relationships keep it going think about
13:55the different moments that they can be
13:57communicating with the media I mean it's
13:59a full-time job now you know for them to
14:01respond and engage they should
14:03absolutely do that and and talk to their
14:05PR person about the best way to do that
14:07so it's not that they shouldn't have a
14:08direct relationship but they also are
14:09running a company doesn't scale right I
14:12mean it's sort of like do all of your
14:13own HR do all of your own sales you're
14:15gonna very much run out of steam so then
14:17how do you advise people to think about
14:19how to construct a PR function inside
14:21their startup do you hire an agency do
14:24you hire a contractor do you have
14:25someone in-house is it a marketing
14:27person it's so different based on oh
14:30yeah I would say the more complicated
14:32the story or the technology the higher
14:36the need to have an internal person in
14:38there sooner if you're in the I don't
14:40know quantum computing space you're
14:43gonna want to have someone in the
14:44company fairly soon it's just because
14:46it's complicated and because it's
14:48complicated and you so this is going to
14:50be just for the sake of simplicity right
14:52but the internal communications people
14:55tend to be best at knowing all the
14:56engineers talking and product management
14:58they sit in meetings and don't charge
15:00for it because it just works differently
15:01and they're very well suited to mind the
15:04stories and figure out okay we've got
15:07what would the actual calendar look like
15:09of announcements if you will and then
15:11the external folks although they can
15:13also do that it's not cost-effective but
15:16would they have the benefit that the
15:17internal person sometimes doesn't is
15:19they see the bigger picture not because
15:21they're different people or more
15:24are working with reporters on all the
15:27cloud stories or they know what 60
15:29minutes is up to and if your internal is
15:31just harder to do but that doesn't mean
15:33you have to have both and you don't have
15:35to have both at the same time yeah if
15:37you're a small company and you know it's
15:39an enterprise company you have a very
15:41small group of customers that you're
15:43trying to reach let's say your main goal
15:45for PR initially is recruiting you may
15:47not need to hire somebody you may just
15:49need like a good agency to help you with
15:51some key moments and help you start
15:53building those relationships but then as
15:55market was saying sometimes you you do
15:57have a very complicated story and you
15:59need a lot of messaging help and you do
16:01need somebody internally who's trying to
16:02help you figure things out let's take
16:04the world of Bitcoin for example it's
16:06just changing so quickly there's so many
16:09news events that are happening outside
16:10of your company it's changing so fast
16:12it's hard for people to understand and
16:14it might help in that case to actually
16:16have somebody internal depending on the
16:18size of the company you know again
16:19mining those stories understanding
16:21what's going and then going on and then
16:23help you figure out what opinion you
16:25want to have on those matters you know
16:26so not just your own announcements but
16:29help you build out like a whole thought
16:31leadership platform which I know sounds
16:33super buzz wordy but it's three oh yeah
16:36it's out there talking about something
16:37that's not just your own product name is
16:39your company news when do people tend to
16:41bring on a full-time PR person like is
16:43it like a year in six months in three
16:46years it depends on how far is the
16:47product along and how well how long is
16:49the sales cycle if this consumer app
16:51it's just a different thing you are not
16:53going to announce it until the thing is
16:56in the App Store and people can actually
16:58use it if you are in an enterprise sales
17:01cycle you're going to want to start
17:03talking about it you know in not over
17:05promise but you want to have some sales
17:07motion going supported by PR before
17:11you're shipping the product so it's just
17:13there's no one-size-fits-all a lot of
17:16early stage companies have very limited
17:17budgets yeah and they have to really
17:19think about where they're gonna spend
17:20those dollars and I think their first
17:22instinct is to only outsource PR
17:24actually I've heard the opposite there
17:26is varying levels of skill and
17:28experience on the on the CEO side of
17:31having handled PR and I think sometimes
17:34when you haven't had sort of this
17:36experience of hiring agency
17:38very suspect about that befriending
17:40quote-unquote all this money and you
17:42don't even get a person right and you
17:44don't even get to see the person every
17:46day I've heard the opposite it's just
17:47like I'm not spending money on the same
17:49experiment best I would hire one person
17:51and as with all things you know I'm
17:54we're big fans of having the right combo
17:57but when you have one person you have
17:59made a commitment to an employee right
18:01that which is harder to undo the agency
18:03and an agency gets you more variety of
18:06you know these people know this media
18:08these people know this right and both
18:10the pros and cons to to both it limits
18:13your opportunities to be opportunistic
18:15right because you have let's say an
18:18internal person who's going after a list
18:20of let's say 20 reporters who cover a
18:22particular space versus maybe working
18:25ideally with an agency who has
18:27relationships across the board with
18:29let's say everybody in the tech and
18:30business media and is aware of other
18:33opportunities happening elsewhere that
18:35you might be able to angle right way for
18:37your ideas that are being created yeah
18:40you know under such-and-such which you
18:42can argue the value or whatever but like
18:44you just are in the flow if you are
18:47doing that all the time and there's 100
18:50people doing that same thing all the
18:51time because you're constantly hearing
18:52about what stories people are writing
18:53and what they're working on if you're
18:55technical company it's unlikely that
18:57you're going to find out about the one
19:00time that the news hour will do
19:02something on cloud computing but if this
19:04is what you do all the time you've
19:05worked with them on other stories you're
19:08gonna know then then and they also know
19:09to come to you so back to the question
19:12of the agency do you have to do a
19:14retainer like a agency of record break
19:16that down like how does that work
19:18well you have to commit to a certain
19:20budget now different agencies do it in
19:22different ways like some do it flat
19:24agency or a flat retainer fee and some
19:27built for time but even the ones that
19:29bill for time are working against a
19:31budget so you do have to commit to some
19:33level of budget and I think it is harder
19:36to get some of the agencies to work with
19:39the smaller startups because they want
19:40you know a minimum budget of let's say
19:43ten thousand dollars a month which is
19:45tough for a very early-stage company and
19:46for a seed stage company that probably
19:50unless you happen to have a consumer
19:52product that everybody can use and you
19:54can get a lot of mainstream media to
19:55cover it and you know maybe your profile
19:57you're gonna be punching above your
19:58weight of it but generally it doesn't
20:01make sense it probably makes more sense
20:02for you to have a consultant or a very
20:03small agency but yeah generally it's
20:06they are working off like a monthly
20:07budget slash retainer their pros and
20:10cons so the retainer the flat retainer
20:12sounds great because you know what
20:14you're doing but there's no incentive on
20:16the agency's part to actually earn that
20:18retainer every month mmm amazing it's
20:22if there's a lot of attention you're
20:24gonna go like okay let's prioritize
20:25which is probably a useful exercise
20:27regardless because I don't think there's
20:29a such a thing it's like just take all
20:31the stories you can get that can get you
20:32into a lot of trouble but you also want
20:34to make sure that people are spending
20:36energy was like well there's no new
20:38product what are we still going to do
20:39and all the great stories that are being
20:41written about companies or products
20:43they're not about a news item right so
20:45you kind of keep everybody honest I
20:48think on the you know build by the hour
20:51method even though it does sound really
20:53expensive but you're saying that there's
20:55sort of you tell them what your goal is
20:56so you're in charge of this process
20:57that's the CEO and you say like my goal
20:59is to be on David Letterman and this is
21:01actually happened to me well if you want
21:02to build up to that momentum this is
21:04what's gonna cost you and then you get
21:05to decide whether you want to do that
21:06the place where you don't want to be is
21:08like well I want to spend twelve
21:10thousand dollars and the agents saying
21:13like for what you want you should really
21:15spend thirty if there's a mismatch don't
21:17spend any money at all because there's a
21:19certain level of activity that you have
21:21to have thing you have to have but if
21:23you don't have profile you have to have
21:25spoke in a couple of places before you
21:27do this before you do this before you
21:28get the TED talk and that just costs
21:30money to build up that presence and the
21:33brand how do you then determine the
21:35criteria for what makes a good agency
21:37because I think this is the number one
21:38question that comes up for a lot of
21:40technical founders who've never I mean
21:42least for other jobs like product you
21:43kind of know how to hire I think it
21:44applies to all and non engineering stuff
21:46here's the shocking part I'm always
21:49surprised at how few people call
21:51reporters to ask about oh did you
21:53referenced X if you're hiring a PR
21:55person don't you want to talk to the
21:57reporter who writes about your beat all
21:59the time or your general area and go
22:01like well who do you actually like
22:03oh great I don't think anybody does it's
22:06harder for young founders who have never
22:08had any interaction with the media and
22:10they kind of don't know where it is if
22:13you have the relationship and you've
22:14already been talking to the media then
22:16absolutely you should do that in most of
22:18the cases that I'm dealing with they
22:20have never done any PR they've never
22:22spoken to the media ever before and so I
22:25think they're going in a little bit more
22:26blind so how do you sort of open their
22:28eyes well I think you should start by
22:31some recommendations and lists and I say
22:33talk to as many people as you can I know
22:36it's a time-consuming process but
22:38ideally this is a partner that you have
22:39for many years yeah and a lot of it is
22:42just chemistry like when you're talking
22:44to the person do they do you feel like
22:45they understand what you're trying to do
22:47do they get your product they get your
22:49technology the problem that you're
22:50trying to solve as they're talking about
22:52it can you imagine them pitching it to
22:54media you know and this is ideally a
22:56person that you're talking to almost
22:58every single day do you trust them they
23:00seem smart and if you don't have that
23:02basic chemistry then it's sort of done
23:04one thing that I see people over-rotate
23:06on which I think is a mistake is they
23:09they want to find someone who really
23:10really gets what they do yes well the
23:13whole freaking point is that they can
23:14help translate this very wonky thing
23:18that you do to an audience that will
23:20then write it down have to write it down
23:22in plain English to an even broader
23:25audience right so you don't want to
23:27benchmark them on how well do you do do
23:30you get your thing you do want to
23:31benchmark on who do they know that it's
23:33important in your ecosystem in terms of
23:36press analysts other influences pundits
23:38what do they know that you don't know
23:40because that's precisely the point okay
23:42they know what you if they feel like
23:43they totally get what you do as much as
23:46your other people in the firm I don't
23:48think that's the right benchmark so do
23:50you then ask them for a portfolio sample
23:52of past successes like how do you know
23:54if you're an enterprise software there
23:57are agencies that do that particularly
23:59well so you look at okay who represents
24:02workday who represents Salesforce right
24:04you you know you go down the list and
24:06there's certain comfort they must know
24:08those beat reporters and those companies
24:09do actually have beat reporters right so
24:11you do that and then I think in the
24:13meeting you want to sell as much
24:16you want them to sell to you because a
24:19lot of good agencies have a choice just
24:22like good employees right you know they
24:24need to be recruited you want to get
24:26them very excited about what you're
24:28trying to do because you have to do that
24:30anyways we want them to be very excited
24:32when they're telling your story to the
24:33rest of the world so there's a
24:35recruiting element and there's an
24:37education element and then you want to
24:39go in that meeting initially based on
24:41just what you've heard how could it
24:43launch knowing that it's not gonna be
24:45the perfect plan but if they if they
24:47can't keep up in the conversation in the
24:49meeting it's probably not a good idea
24:51and then the other thing is if you're
24:53hiring an agency and not a freelance
24:54person who will actually be working who
24:58will be the team there's a lot of bait
25:01and switch who are you actually going to
25:03be talking to so like the fancy big
25:04agency head will come in and sell the
25:06deal but you're actually working at the
25:07really exact which you know that person
25:10is very smart and jazz they'll go kill
25:13for you because that's their chats a
25:14career-making opportunity so that's not
25:16necessarily bad but you want to know who
25:18that is yes you should meet them and you
25:20should just ask him straight out like
25:21you know you say this is gonna be my
25:23team but who is the person I'm gonna be
25:25talking to every single week on our call
25:27and who's gonna be working on it in your
25:28office yeah because it's a good chance
25:31it's not gonna be the person that has
25:32been selling it to mediate it is but
25:34it's always good to know exactly who is
25:36that where the chemistry is - so one of
25:39the interesting things about enterprise
25:40sales that crannie have said is that
25:42actually you don't want someone who has
25:44domain expertise sometimes because you
25:46want someone who's gonna who doesn't
25:48already know the PlayBook that they're
25:49gonna learn it from scratch is there a
25:51similar rule because how do you sort of
25:52navigate the domain expertise question
25:54well look I mean there's a certain
25:56practicality to the whole thing there
25:58are domains that are very well
26:00established and the agencies or the
26:02people who have worked in those domains
26:04to just know however you don't want to
26:07get someone who only knows that playbook
26:09and only has the muscle of like big
26:12company blah blah blah because the way
26:15you may be going about your go-to-market
26:17or the technology fundamentals may be
26:20very different so you don't want this
26:21person who just been there done it
26:23there are also sectors that are or
26:25companies that are in a stage where
26:27they've hit a bit of a wall and you
26:30might want to find someone who's outside
26:32of the domain but gets very excited
26:35about who sees past like the flurry of
26:37what the five insiders say and I think
26:40there are advantages to having an agency
26:42that understands the space or has enough
26:45understanding around the space where
26:47they can jump in and if they've had
26:48great successes with other companies in
26:50that space and it's not competitive to
26:51your company that's an advantage for
26:53sure we've talked about it you know it's
26:55very much a relationship business so if
26:58you've successfully worked with a
27:00reporter on 20 stories all in enterprise
27:04technology don't you want to be client
27:07number 21 who gets the benefit of all of
27:10that without actually paying for that
27:11okay how do you think then about
27:13criteria more criteria for judging both
27:17really good PR contractors PR people so
27:19we heard we talked about network we
27:20talked about domain expertise chemistry
27:22reference checks like we're some of the
27:24concrete things that founders can do
27:26when they think about hiring their PR
27:27function well I think a lot of it is
27:29talking to them about what they would do
27:31with your the profile of your company
27:33and your personal profile isn't that
27:35kind of like making them do the work for
27:36free though if you're asking them for
27:38that and like give me an idea of you
27:40know what you'd like to do so what would
27:42a plan look like I don't think there's
27:44anything wrong asking can you give me a
27:45sense of what you know three-month plan
27:47would look like you know having been on
27:49the agency side when you really want a
27:52piece of business or like why not write
27:53the plan because you're gonna be doing
27:55the plan it's like design agencies you
27:57have to show mock-up yeah and then the
27:59other thing I think sometimes gets
28:01coupled that shouldn't be is because you
28:03have a company that's is run away
28:05successful and then all the success gets
28:08attributed to the agency's work so a
28:11good way to kind of get at can they
28:13think outside of this particular
28:14playbook that worked really well because
28:16they were good in the CEO was good it's
28:18like okay so of all of your case studies
28:20what actually applies to us like how
28:22would you apply past successes to us so
28:25that they really have the ability to
28:26custom think that they're not just Auto
28:27mating they're right there yeah and if
28:29you don't you know if you're looking for
28:31somebody who has done crisis before give
28:33me a couple scenarios that you dealt
28:35with and then go talk to some of their
28:37existing and past clients some that
28:39they give you and some that they didn't
28:41give you you actually figure out very
28:43quickly rise to the top and bright
28:45doesn't so the challenge when you're
28:46doing these reference checks on or the
28:48vetting process of agencies is teasing
28:50apart how much of the success was
28:51because sometimes you can just have this
28:52this tailwind of a great product or a
28:54team and right past the gene right and
28:58yeah just along for the ride well that
29:00brings me to how do you measure the
29:01success like how do you know it's
29:03working how what I would say to people
29:05to see it was like if you are trying to
29:07see the success of it in a spreadsheet
29:09don't bother because you will never ever
29:11be happy it just it doesn't work that
29:13way just doesn't work that way this is
29:15really hard for engineers who are very
29:16quantitative and they're thinking and
29:18when they don't they are not given a
29:20spreadsheet that tells them like okay
29:22I've gotten this out of what I've put in
29:26like it's very frustrating to them and I
29:27understand that but you know it's like
29:30Marc Andreessen said once like you know
29:32it's working when it's working I know
29:34it's a challenge very very very vague
29:37but it's true I mean are you seeing your
29:40company's show up in the stories
29:42relevant to your space if you're a
29:44Bitcoin company and there's a Bitcoin
29:46story that's written and there's five
29:47companies listed and you're not one of
29:48them then there's a problem there and
29:50how do you fix that and if you can't see
29:52any positive traction moving forward
29:55then I think that's an issue you
29:56definitely know when it's not working
29:59I love the skeptical CEOs have to go
30:01through the cycle of it not working with
30:03in order to know how come people aren't
30:05calling anymore and are fawning all over
30:07me or whatnot like that you can tell
30:09that it slows down your recruiting it's
30:11harder to get everything your entire
30:14network just sort of gets it is slower
30:18and you have more hurdles and when it's
30:20working if you don't know the opposite
30:22you may not know how to feel it it's not
30:25gonna show up in a spreadsheet well what
30:26is reasonable for them to ask so you can
30:28measure lots of things you can measure
30:30number of interviews there may be a
30:32situation where you know your person or
30:35your agency is getting you all the
30:36interviews you're not converting them
30:38into stories but you're getting the
30:40interview you're getting the enemy so
30:41part of that is on the team and part of
30:43that is on you right so how can we work
30:46on that and then are they giving you the
30:48training are you accepting the training
30:50or you got like no I've got this and
30:52then there are no stories and then
30:53complaining begins right and the other
30:55part is so how many stories are there
30:56and then the tricky part is that you can
30:59measure and you can measure you know
31:01dollar four am I getting the interviews
31:03am i getting the stories it's very hard
31:06to go and then so-and-so called and gave
31:08me a five million dollar contract so you
31:11can't link it to outcomes you can't link
31:12it to outcomes now it does happen sort
31:14of anecdotally particularly at the very
31:16early stage but like it's not again with
31:19a spreadsheet not so much do you guys
31:21advise like clip reports or other
31:23sentiment analysis or any other I think
31:25it's very useful to get a sense of how
31:27much press coverage you're getting and
31:29how positive and also tracking what the
31:32competitors are doing and is there
31:34covered significantly different than
31:35yours and if so why and having that
31:37conversation with your PR firm or
31:39consultant to understand okay how is it
31:42different why is it different and what's
31:43our plan to better our own coverage
31:45there should always be that plan concise
31:48user when you have a straight up
31:49competitor right you can if they're
31:54their PR firm is saying like look you're
31:55not gonna get that Fast Company profile
31:57you know you're a seed stage company
31:59it's an enterprise play you've got you
32:02know one customer so far it's just not
32:04gonna happen then they need to help give
32:06a plan for what it's going to take
32:08together and that might take a couple of
32:10years but as long as they're really
32:12outlining what it is now the
32:13entrepreneur founder what-have-you might
32:15still say like that's that's too long
32:17that's ridiculous a good agency or a
32:20good interim person they don't say no
32:22they say not now and here's why and
32:24here's what it would take and then
32:25you're in the same conversation working
32:29versus you know you can't ask them for
32:31that that's unreasonable because
32:32unreasonable it's the entire reason for
32:34them to be in the spot that they are
32:36because right they set unreasonable
32:38goals for themselves and in the bridge
32:39you achieve them so you can't go with
32:41that slap right the thing I want to
32:42bring up though that is really important
32:44is a lot of times I'm hearing folks
32:46hiring a PR firm or consultant and then
32:49feeling like the problem is solved I can
32:52take a step back go run my company
32:54because now I have somebody doing my PR
32:57and then it's very easy for them to
32:59judge and say you know it's taking too
33:01much of my time I don't like the results
33:04the reality is just because you're
33:06er former consultant doesn't mean that
33:09it's gonna be less time if you have a
33:11good PR firm a good consultant it should
33:13be more of your time look at Marc
33:16Benioff do you think that he's built the
33:17profile that he has for him itself and
33:19for the company without putting a lot of
33:22time into PR and he's very good at it
33:24but I think if for you to think I'm
33:27hiring somebody to solve the problem so
33:28I can spend less time on it that's
33:30dangerous if you're not getting phone
33:32calls from your PR firm saying I want
33:34you to do this interview I want you to
33:36join this dinner you know would you go
33:37on CNBC would you go to this event then
33:39then it's a problem if they're not
33:41asking for more of your time it takes a
33:44lot of work to build a profile and in
33:45fact the talented CEO is any of being
33:48one of the best examples they they will
33:51make the budget there will make the time
33:53they will be incredibly demanding in all
33:57the right ways so they they double down
34:00on everything good things to look out
34:02for if you're complaining about it
34:03taking too much time if you feel like
34:05you're having to re-explain the
34:07technology Yuri explain your product or
34:09what the goal is that's a problem you
34:12shouldn't be spending more time you
34:13should be evolving it shouldn't be
34:14repetitive time they're gonna need your
34:16brain power right come up with it you
34:18don't want them to completely come up
34:19with their own ideas messages in a
34:21complete vacuum they should it should be
34:23really coming from you they should be
34:24working with you and then they should be
34:26your channel to get it out there but
34:28yeah if you feel like it's a time suck
34:29in a sense I don't really get what
34:30you're doing and understand it that's a
34:32problem right no the difference so one
34:34of the themes that you guys have touched
34:36upon throughout this is the importance
34:38of the plan and progress against those
34:40goals whether it's measurement whether
34:41it's figuring out what to do how to
34:43judge so what is a plan and what goes
34:45into it yes there has to be a plan but
34:47it's more the act of planning than the
34:49actual document because you know
34:52particularly successful companies things
34:54change all the time right and so
34:55starting the plan goes out the window
34:58because there's new stuff to work with
34:59which is great but you need to have a
35:01plan and a planning process to put some
35:02method to all of this and you need to
35:05also make sure particularly when you're
35:06an outsider that you gain the clients
35:09trust it was like okay what is actually
35:11going to happen so that's why a plan is
35:13really important a good starting point
35:15is sort of if this your goal for this
35:17year and for next year then here's what
35:20it's 90 days and then here's what needs
35:22to happen from there and here's how much
35:24time we need from you you know all that
35:27kind of stuff you hear they kind of need
35:28to document when they can ask for to get
35:31really granular specific with their plan
35:32and to do something we call it the pitch
35:34grid so thinking through you know not
35:37just the outlet media outlets and the
35:40reporters that you want to go after and
35:41pitch but thinking about what is the
35:43story you want to tell and then what are
35:45the ingredients that you need to tell
35:46that story because if that story is not
35:48going to hold water without a customer
35:50for example then you're not gonna be
35:52able to tell that story or pitch that
35:53story until you have a customer or let's
35:55say that story needs some competitive
35:57heat you need to sort of put yourself up
35:59against another big competitor to make
36:01it interesting so you have to think
36:02through all those different scenarios
36:04and have the opportunity to talk through
36:06is this a story that we want to tell is
36:09that the right time to be to be doing it
36:11if we think the CEO has the skills to be
36:14a good speaker as opposed to an
36:17interview right build all of those
36:18activities so they're speaking there's
36:20media there's the your content channel
36:23there's all those kinds of things the
36:25actual specifics are not changing a lot
36:27because you may not have planned on
36:29raising around and then you do and then
36:31there's a new cycle your products
36:32delayed and you maybe need to push back
36:33the launch right what are you gonna do
36:35and you don't have news maybe you have
36:36to get a bit more creative about things
36:38a competitor has launched all these
36:41things it's good bad another news right
36:43so those details will change but the
36:45actual activities that you can track
36:47yeah the things I tell the companies
36:49look out for when they get the plan from
36:51the agency consultant or even internal
36:52person is how quickly are they moving
36:55into action I think it's a warning sign
36:58if an agency puts together a plan and
37:00two months of that plan is just prep and
37:03getting them just beat and onboarding
37:05it's like in those four definitely
37:07within the first month you should have
37:08at least a couple of meetings set up now
37:12that doesn't necessarily mean automatic
37:14coverage because that's never getting
37:17you in front of people they start having
37:19this grind and a lot of agencies will go
37:21like well first we need to get the
37:23messaging straight we need to get that's
37:24all true but like those are not
37:27happening isolation you just take a
37:28reporter who really gets the space
37:30already and you like having
37:32off-the-record conversation you'll learn
37:34lot in those three to five interviews
37:37that you know in a conference room just
37:39you will never come together and even
37:41inform your messaging right of course
37:42I've always been grateful to reporters
37:44so like here's why I can't write that
37:45story I was like yes
37:46now I know what to do if you were to get
37:48a story what would you want that
37:50headline to be because that's really
37:51gonna inform the story that you're
37:53telling that might be a good directing
37:56function for the founders to get to the
37:58core of like okay what do you want your
38:01company to be like I just talked to a
38:02company recently and they said we don't
38:04really want to be positioned as X
38:06company and X space because the space is
38:08a bit noisy and there's all these other
38:09things and what it came down to is
38:11actually like what they wanted on their
38:14website and what they wanted their
38:16customer conversations to be was one
38:18thing but what it takes to get into the
38:20media as a slightly different thing I
38:22see this all the time of course none of
38:24this is guaranteed right but at least it
38:26directs you toward the types of people
38:28we want to be meeting with you made
38:29during those conversations realize you
38:31know what we're actually not gonna be
38:32ready to talk about that product stuff
38:35like another year so let's focus on
38:37these other things when you talk about
38:38there being sometimes two levels of
38:40stories like something that needs to be
38:41further telling the product itself and
38:43then for actually selling the brand that
38:45also gets to the question of where does
38:47the PR function sit in an organization
38:50and particularly in an early-stage
38:51startup does it report to the CEO the
38:54CEO oh the marketing person if there is
38:57a marketing person where should the PR
38:59person sit and how do you sort of see it
39:01evolve over the life cycle of a company
39:02I think the more connected the PR
39:04function is to the CEO the more
39:07successful it will be the more access
39:09that they have to the vision the story
39:11the timeline of everything every aspect
39:15of what's going on with a company that
39:16means both good and bad let's say you
39:19have to do layoffs let's say that
39:20there's some other internal strife going
39:22on in the company the closer you are to
39:24the CEO the earlier you're going to know
39:25and the more you're going to be able to
39:26put a plan around it and manage it
39:28I think the farther you get away you
39:31know and some companies it might make
39:33sense to do that but I think it
39:35definitely puts a PR person at a
39:36disadvantage being able to maybe move
39:39quicker and really continue to help like
39:41tell the brand story and that may impact
39:44what we may go talk to the New York
39:46Times about tomorrow or what
39:47we may say when we're up on stage and
39:49the more in the know they are the more
39:50they can be planning for that stuff
39:52I'm violently agree maybe not at the
39:55very early stage but if you're a
39:58successful company and you should all
40:00plan for that you're not going to get
40:01great talent unless they have direct
40:05access to the CEO now there's a thing
40:07that some people can do with whoever
40:09does your review at the end of the year
40:11that may not be the best use of the CEOs
40:13time but if you're if you don't have
40:16access you're going to be very much
40:17disadvantaged and as a result the CEO is
40:20also not going to get the high caliber
40:21talent that they really want and it also
40:23may inform you know very important
40:26decisions like I've been in cases where
40:28the businesses decided to shut a product
40:31down fine but how it's done and when
40:34it's done that should be you know PR
40:37should have a strong input into that
40:39because it's gonna have consequences on
40:41your reputation right and there are so
40:43many other examples or some other crisis
40:45situation PR should be a really critical
40:46input instead of the decision being
40:49completely done wrapped up and then
40:51handed to PR to deal with who have
40:52mistake people make a lot is that their
40:54expect them to do the Polish and o send
40:56this off versus yeah part of it yes R
40:58the other thing as companies get bigger
41:01one of the dangerous things that can
41:03happen if PR is sort of completely hid
41:07under marketing is that it can become
41:09too directed by that function marketing
41:12is going to be driving a lot of their
41:13priorities which might not be the right
41:15to be clear there there's a big
41:17difference between PR and marketing huge
41:19is it the best use of time for the PR
41:22folks to be doing PR for marketing
41:25activities or is it better for them to
41:27be more directly connected with what's
41:29happening in on the corporate side and
41:31focusing on reputation and the media
41:33strategy and the messaging as a company
41:35all of that if your company is your
41:37story and it impacts everything
41:39everything you do routing hiring like
41:42fundraising everything and the primary
41:45person helps you tell your story is
41:47somewhere else in the bowels of the
41:49organization how is that going to work
41:50we're in the world of persuasion nobody
41:54has to do anything where we're concerned
41:56and so you need a lot of creativity to
41:59figure out like what might be good ideas
42:01you also need some process to make sure
42:02that people actually do their job all
42:04right you guys well thank you for
42:05joining the ASIC since a podcast sure
