00:00hi I'm Hannah and welcome to the a 16z
00:03podcast this episode of the podcast is
00:05all about enhancing what it means to be
00:07human from what we eat to what we
00:09measure to what we produce to how we
00:12perform it is based on a conversation
00:14with Chris Dixon that took place at our
00:17inaugural summit event with Daniel Chow
00:19CEO of halo neuroscience Rob Reinhart
00:22CEO of Soylent James Rogers CEO of
00:25appeal and Jeffrey Wu CEO of new shoe
00:28box okay so maybe since you guys all do
00:35interesting stuff maybe we should go
00:36down and just describe kind of what your
00:38product is and what about it what it
00:40does yeah sure I'm happy to start my
00:43name is Daniel Chow I'm the founder and
00:44CEO of halo of Neuroscience we're a
00:47human performance company and
00:48specifically we build technologies that
00:50use electricity to stimulate the brain
00:52and produce temporary states of hyper
00:55learning cool my name is Jeffrey Wu and
00:58we started off in this hardcore bio
01:01hacking community where people were
01:02tinkering with you know Russian
01:05Alzheimer drugs different powders I had
01:07like in a sub milligram drug scale
01:09mixing different ratios of different
01:11powders and three compounds and tens of
01:13thousands of people were doing this in
01:15their kitchens in their home labs so I
01:21see a future where food is healthy by
01:23default we started with a nutritionally
01:25complete powdered we'll replacement more
01:27recently released a line of beverages
01:28flavored beverages functional beverages
01:30including caffeine and theanine so
01:32there's an element of not just nutrition
01:34but enhancement a bar as well we're also
01:36investing in research in the food system
01:39in the food supply chain and with the
01:40end goal of reducing the resource cost
01:42of food production as far as possible my
01:45name is James Rogers we're trying to
01:47improve the efficiency of which we're
01:49growing and producing food by reducing
01:51spoilage and so our company does that by
01:53taking uneaten plant materials so things
01:55like stems leaves grape skins orange
01:57peels banana leaves whatever is not
01:59being eaten we blend those things up and
02:01then from those blends we extract very
02:03particular subsets of molecules we turn
02:06those into a powder and we then dip
02:07fresh produce into that solution and
02:09allow it to dry and when it dries it
02:11leaves behind this imperceptibly thin
02:13of plant material on the outside of the
02:16produce and that thin barrier slows down
02:18the rate that water evaporates out of
02:20the produce and slows down the rate that
02:21oxygen gets in and by doing that we can
02:23extend the useful shelf life of fresh
02:25produce by a factor of three to five
02:26times so James can you frame a little
02:29bit the kind of state of food production
02:30if you look at all produce all produce
02:32has the same characteristics it's all
02:35seasonal and it's all perishable the
02:37problem with that though is is that
02:39regions of the world only have certain
02:41periods of the season when they can
02:43produce a certain kind of produce and so
02:45now if you look at the regions of the
02:47world where labor costs are low water
02:49costs are low where we can produce
02:50high-quality fresh produce and then you
02:53look at what the shelf life of that
02:54produce is well we know the speed of a
02:56boat and you can start to draw rings
02:58around where produce is available during
03:00certain portions of the year there's
03:03certain kinds of produce and certainly
03:04certain high-quality types of produce
03:06that we can't get the year-round and so
03:08it's trying to address is improving the
03:10the transport ability of that produce
03:12but there's also some infield
03:14applications as well it allow us to
03:16harvest at higher fruit maturity and
03:18quality it's just something that is a
03:20breakthrough material science it
03:21couldn't been done before or like what
03:23why now it boils down so really what
03:25resource use intensity is going to
03:26become in the next 20 20 to 30 years
03:29we're gonna need 50 percent more food in
03:31the next 30 years to feed the world's
03:32growing population it's gonna need to
03:34come from improving the efficiency with
03:36which we're utilizing the food that
03:38we're actually growing and if you look
03:40at you know food spoilage rates in the
03:42United States they're around 40% so
03:45we're throwing away almost half of what
03:46we're growing and you look at all of the
03:48agricultural inputs that grow into
03:49producing that food you know 80% of our
03:51freshwater or 20% of our greenhouse gas
03:53emissions you know all the trick all the
03:56human capital that goes into producing
03:57this food all the pesticide usage and
03:59ultimately ends up in a you know runoff
04:01and so you know why now is the problem
04:04it is continuing to mount and that it is
04:07enabled by new advancements in material
04:10science that we weren't able to do up
04:11until maybe 20 years ago and that's
04:14really come to linking the properties of
04:16single molecules to the properties of a
04:19microstructure that can be developed
04:21with those molecules so Rob same
04:23question for you one out so I think a
04:25lot of advancements have been
04:26unlocked in both agriculture food
04:28production and food processing out of
04:30the eyes of the common consumer it is
04:33staggering the amount of efficiencies
04:34that have been unlocked in both
04:36agriculture and food processing the food
04:38processing technique that can ship a
04:39product that is maximally nutritious and
04:41neutral pH and store it at ambient
04:44temperatures this took advancements in
04:46material science in terms of packaging
04:48process engineering in terms of filling
04:50liquid that is incredibly prone to
04:53spoilage honestly a lot of people have
04:54become disillusioned with the products
04:56that the larger traditional food
04:58companies have been able to create a lot
05:00of the big traditional cpgs of the world
05:02just became slow to innovate risk-averse
05:04slow to adopt new technologies ecommerce
05:06has been an enormous tool of ours
05:08something that we were able you're
05:10completely online right now right like
05:12all all of your sales are ecommerce we
05:14so exclusively for me if you can talk
05:16like Bill about kind of the internet
05:17movements around your absolutely we
05:19would not exist without what we've been
05:20able to do online launching with
05:22crowdfunding building an online
05:23community reddit our own forums having
05:26this degree of intimacy unlocked by the
05:28internet is just something that would
05:29not have been possible before bringing
05:31the consumer into our product
05:32development lifecycle listening to them
05:34asking them what they want and then
05:35incorporating it into our products
05:37releasing version numbers food version
05:391.1 1.2 1.3 2.0 it's something that
05:43would never have been possible before
05:44before you you make a product you hope
05:47people like it you put it on shelves so
05:48you see if they buy it we've been able
05:50to have this build measure learn adopt a
05:53cycle that never would have been
05:55possible before e-commerce in the
05:57internet we can tolerate a higher degree
05:59of risk we can take bigger chances we
06:00can move faster with new technologies
06:02and techniques and test things online if
06:04people like them then we can push them
06:06to our national distribution channels if
06:08something fizzles then we can go back to
06:10the drawing board so using the internet
06:12as well as recent food processing
06:14technologies have recently enabled us to
06:16make the kind of products we can at the
06:18price we can - you know it's having this
06:20degree of sophistication in engineering
06:22and still in Janelle for the product
06:24that cost a few dollars is is really
06:26fascinating I mean it's easy to make
06:28something expensive but making something
06:29on spec by the millions at such a low
06:32cost that the typical American can
06:34afford takes a lot of technology and
06:36engineering so Jeff maybe people know
06:38what the entropic Siskin and like you
06:39talked about that and how it
06:40sort of internet movement and absolutely
06:41I think geographically people that are
06:44looking to enhance themselves
06:45cognitively physically you know before
06:50you're basically constraining our
06:51geographic proximity online communities
06:54really allowed people to connect from
06:56you know people I wanted to live forever
06:57in Ohio to talk to people that wanted to
06:59live forever in San Francisco so
07:02nootropics is this notion of cognitive
07:04enhancement we have alcohol that push
07:07your cognitive state in a certain
07:09direction you have marijuana it's
07:11pushing a different direction it stands
07:12to reason there are compounds in the
07:14universe that can push your mental state
07:16and more positive more productive state
07:18the community is really drawn from you
07:20know off-label use of different
07:22supplements different research chemicals
07:24and really just trading tips trading you
07:27know the sort of hobbies your tactics
07:30you know one thing I like to I like to
07:32think about is if the homebrew competing
07:35Club was a group of hobbyists a bunch of
07:37tinkering tinker around computer parts
07:39in the 70s 80s I feel like that same
07:42kind of excitement enthusiasm are the
07:44biohackers today where people are
07:45tinkering with human inputs and tracking
07:48all these different biometrics there's a
07:50fundamental desire for humans to want to
07:52enhance and improve themselves I think
07:53that's one of the key factors that
07:55differentiates us humans from lower
07:57animals being able to manipulate our
07:58environments in ourselves I think it's
08:00particularly interesting today is that
08:02I'm a computer scientist by training and
08:07one of my big thesis is on interesting
08:09applications are built on top of the
08:11available sensors out there right if you
08:13look at mobile devices a lot of the
08:15sensors have stagnated but where sensors
08:18have really exploded in terms of
08:20availability and cost essentially on the
08:22human body so I think we can finally now
08:24start quantitatively tracking
08:26performance improvements on different
08:28things you can consume so it's two sides
08:30of the same coin right inputs if you're
08:32not measuring your outputs well you're
08:35just sort of holistically guessing and
08:37let's bring engineering sort of first
08:39principle thinking - it's measuring
08:41humans and then closing that loop - to
08:43enhance ourselves and if you're not
08:44familiar with if you go to like if you
08:45go to Reddit slash our nootropics
08:47there's a whole community of people who
08:48develop what they call their stack which
08:49is sort of their mix of
08:51of different thing of caffeine and all
08:52these other kinds of things and then do
08:53a lot of a lot of these people will have
08:55various sensors on their bodies rob you
08:57did that for a while too like so this is
08:59sort of a whole what modeled as a CG in
09:02I just got a mr. Daniel he tells more
09:07about the technology and kind of what
09:09what exactly you guys do yeah so we
09:12build a wearable neuro stimulator
09:13actually Sean you might bring that up so
09:16this is a motor cortex specific neuro
09:18stimulator so these we call them primers
09:20but you know that's a fancy word for
09:22electrode for us this is where the
09:25electricity comes out of and when you
09:27put this on like a regular set of
09:28headphones the neuroanatomy works out
09:32such that these guys these primers will
09:35cover the part of the brain motor cortex
09:38that controls movement our bodies so
09:41everything from skill acquisition to
09:43strengthen explosion to endurance all of
09:46these things can be sort of like there's
09:48a neurologic component to all of those
09:50things so how can we use neuro
09:52stimulation and temporary states of
09:54hyper learning combine that with
09:56physical training to enhance athletic
09:58capabilities really any sorts of
10:00movement we've had neurosurgical teams
10:03reach out to us asking if they could use
10:06this technology to train the next
10:07generation neurosurgeons we've had
10:09artists reach out to us to see if they
10:11could more gracefully move a brush over
10:14canvas we've had musicians
10:16to help with the technical aspects of
10:19say playing a violin so you know sort of
10:21anything movement based we could
10:23accelerate the the rate at which you
10:25learn can you talk about sort of where
10:27you see your your technology going and
10:30and what you see is the future of good
10:32production up until now we have utilized
10:35I would I'd say our chemicals and the
10:39distinction in my mind between a
10:40chemical and a molecule is that a
10:43chemical is something that humans have
10:44created that hasn't existed before in
10:46nature and that a molecule is something
10:49that nature reuses all the time there
10:51are the kind of the fundamental building
10:53blocks of nature that get reused and
10:55recycled and that up till now we've been
10:58able to kind of deal with the negative
10:59externalities that are associated with
11:01crop production that result from these
11:04the quote-unquote chemical and pesticide
11:06usage but we're starting to bump up
11:08against those negative externalities
11:10actually impacting our lives and maybe
11:12not even becoming externalities anymore
11:14if they're getting internalized and what
11:16we look at and say well nature has
11:18really done a hell of a job without us
11:20on this planet utilizing these molecules
11:23and the way that nature does it is not
11:25by selecting a specific molecule to do
11:27one thing the approach that Nature has
11:29taken has been to use a micro structural
11:31approach it's given you know reptile
11:34scales it's given plants a cute ikkyu
11:36lair and so we look at the future is to
11:41actually use those same building blocks
11:43from nature and basically use our
11:46knowledge of how to make those things
11:48build the structures that we want and
11:49build these micro structures that'll
11:51give us crop protection and and right
11:53now we focus predominantly on post
11:55harvest preservation of fresh produce
11:56because we're d50 you know up to 80% the
11:59developing world of produce just being
12:01lost but that long-term we really have
12:03an opportunity to also start employing
12:04some of these strategies infield is not
12:07a pesticidal agent that cytotoxic to
12:09some life-form but to use these
12:11molecules to form barriers that act as
12:13forms of molecular camouflage in the
12:16field and use this cloaking mechanism
12:17which which some organisms and nature
12:19already use so we view the future as
12:21really an opportunity to use this
12:23knowledge of material science and
12:25knowledge of how to reconstruct nature's
12:28molecules into clever structures that
12:30will ultimately allow us to deliver
12:32produce the last twice as long for the
12:33consumer and it's grown without
12:34pesticides Rob the future of Soylent or
12:37super food future food I think you're
12:39going to see more technology both in
12:41agriculture and in food products food
12:43production is still intrinsically
12:44inefficient especially animal products
12:46you just lose so much energy you lose so
12:49many resources at every step from the
12:51Sun to grow the corn to feed the animal
12:53to process the meat and of course
12:56unconscionable amounts of fresh food
12:58gets gets thrown away and I think we'll
13:00see greater adoption of preservation
13:01technologies that aren't in mass
13:04adoption today such as irradiation I
13:06think you're going to see more genetic
13:08modification not less we're not going to
13:11be genetically engineering soy and corn
13:12anymore it's much too slow it's much too
13:13inefficient we're going to grow more
13:16basic organisms basically
13:17most basic plant which is algae algae
13:19has been eaten for centuries you know
13:22seaweed if you like sushi spirulina is a
13:25well-known superfood and we're going to
13:27see more adoption of single-celled
13:28organisms yeast has of course been part
13:31of the food system for a very very long
13:32time but just recently have we gotten
13:34the tools to engineer these organisms so
13:36I think we're going to use single-celled
13:37organisms to produce the same proteins
13:39and fats and carbohydrates that we used
13:42to wait an entire growing season for
13:44that we can have organisms that double
13:45within hours and I think we can use the
13:49front and techniques we can use texture
13:51modifiers synthetic flavors to make
13:53meats that are much more convincing and
13:55much more sustainable and efficient to
13:58produce I think that a lot of food is
14:01going to be grown in giant steel vats
14:03rather than fields but that means that
14:05we're never going to run out of arable
14:07land because all you really need to make
14:08food is sunlight and air in water so if
14:11you lose less energy at every step
14:13you're going to produce food a lot more
14:14efficiently you can able to feed people
14:16a lot more people with a lot more
14:19nutritious food more food would be more
14:20nutritious the cost will lower than
14:22absolutely the resource cost and the
14:24sustainability factors become going to
14:26become much more important all right so
14:27we have a question over here this
14:29question is directed toward Daniel and
14:31Jeffery both of you have different
14:33mechanisms for putting your brains in
14:35different states the obvious question is
14:37is there any synergy here what happens
14:39if you combine these two things can you
14:40speculate on how what event what would
14:43happen when you put them together
14:44instead of using them separately so
14:46there's a really interesting paper that
14:48came out about two years ago that looked
14:50at the treatment of major depression and
14:52as a 2x2 factorial design 120 subjects
14:5630 and one of four groups you had there
14:59god electrical stimulation alone or you
15:02got zoloft alone you got the two
15:05combined or none at all electrical
15:07stimulation and zoloft did about the
15:09same so that's awesome because you can
15:11use electrical stimulation as a
15:13potential replacement for a drug but the
15:15two did better yet together so you know
15:17it suggests that there's some sort of
15:19potential there's some sort of
15:20feed-forward right some sort of
15:22potentiation that goes both ways
15:24yeah cognition is such a complicated
15:25notion right you can break that
15:27connection to certain measurables
15:29metrics like reaction time working
15:31memory capacity etc and there's so many
15:34different pathways that you know attack
15:35each of these you know and outputs part
15:38of that the notion of stacking different
15:40compounds or different devices is you
15:42know figuring out synergies I think
15:44that's like a right there of research
15:45because most studies are focused on
15:48single compounds it's simpler I think in
15:50the future there will be just systems
15:52you know perhaps you know something
15:54that's like automating a bunch of
15:55different variables being inputted to
15:57find optimal outputs from one of the
15:59initiatives they have one of the
16:00challenges here right I mean both Jeff
16:02and Rob you're doing a lot of your
16:04commissioning a bunch of scientific
16:06studies because one of the challenges
16:07here there just haven't been that much
16:08research on all these things yeah we you
16:09guys do you run a peer-reviewed study
16:11it'll be published later this year in a
16:12nature journal using a controlled study
16:15studying the effects of tolerability of
16:17people living on Soylent and measuring a
16:20lot of biomarkers vitamin mineral
16:22nutrition and and otherwise and you know
16:25mental cognition is a big one but I'll
16:28just point out that you know nootropics
16:30has have been a part of our society for
16:32a very long time I mean how many people
16:33in this room have caffeine in their
16:34system right now you know why not
16:36theanine why won't the anine be as or
16:39even more adopted than caffeine or new
16:43novel new topics that have yet to be
16:44discovered and what if those end up in
16:46our breakfast by default what if those
16:48end up in a lot of our food products by
16:49default I think that you know the line
16:52between food and medicine and
16:53enhancement may begin to blur yeah I see
16:56it as just inputs in the human system
16:58right if you just again boil down humans
17:00I mean obviously we're complicated that
17:02in a computer but it's a system
17:03nonetheless right set the set of inputs
17:06coming in for some predictable type of
17:08output and foods supplements consumables
17:11different regimens you know wearing a
17:14you know the neurostimulator
17:15all different inputs into the human
17:17system alright great so all really
17:20fantastic and inspiring concepts and my
17:22question would be to you two gentlemen
17:24how do you think about scalability and
17:27extending these ideas beyond the already
17:29sort of body and sustainability
17:31community or however you might defined
17:34the niches that would be more receptive
17:36immediately to the concepts that you're
17:38bringing to market yeah I mean the way
17:41that we think about it is that we
17:43don't really want to market our products
17:44we want to market the benefits that
17:46growers received by using our products
17:48so so one little Anna do it I'll just
17:50tell is that it most most of you
17:53probably have had the complaint you know
17:54my Tomatoes don't taste like anything
17:55anymore they taste like water and the
17:58reason for that is that the tomatoes
17:59harvested at a stage 3 in a color index
18:01of 3 which means it's it's green and you
18:04really want to consume it at a color
18:06index of 5 or 6 when it wants that deep
18:08red and the reason for that is that the
18:10fruit will continue to ripen on the vine
18:12but if you if you pick it early what
18:15you'll end up with something that has
18:17only 1/5 of the nutrient density that it
18:19would is if you let it mature it all the
18:21way to that that's date of 5 but for
18:23transportability reasons you will choose
18:26to harvest at a 3 let it mature during
18:28transit and just sell that tomato that
18:30still looks like a great tomato but it's
18:32only got one fifth of the nutrient
18:33density and so rather than us talk about
18:36you know how great radar technology is
18:38to consumers we work with our partners
18:40with our growers to say here's some new
18:43things that you could do with your
18:44harvest practices to improve the quality
18:47of fresh produce that you're harvesting
18:49and delivering to your customers so that
18:51you're able to advertise a more
18:52nutritious better tasting tomato to the
18:54end consumer we think that's something
18:56that's general interest and not just to
18:58a niche audience I think that's a really
19:00part of it boils down to how do you get
19:01people to care about sustainability as a
19:03company that we do sell directly to
19:05consumers asking someone to pay more for
19:08a more sustainable product is a long
19:10you know most of the market is probably
19:11not going to be up for that I think you
19:13have to confer some benefit directly to
19:16the consumer but I think that's entirely
19:18possible because if something is more
19:19sustainable than the resource costs are
19:21lower and you have more control over its
19:22design so I think you need to combine
19:24the sustainability factor with things
19:26that confer a consumer benefits such as
19:27lowering the cost or putting more work
19:29into the design and making it a more
19:31attractive product all right at a time
19:33that things are wrong
