00:00hi everyone welcome to the a six in Z
00:01podcast today's episode is at one of our
00:04newest portfolio companies which is
00:05applying nano scale material science to
00:07fruit and vegetables in this episode we
00:09cover everything from how that affects
00:11what we taste and what we see at the
00:12grocery store to farming and both local
00:14and international food supply chains to
00:16how nature the ultimate complex system
00:18works and then more generally we talk
00:20about how material sciences advances are
00:22playing out differently today thanks to
00:24a few interesting things and just why we
00:26okay I heart material science so much we
00:29have with us today a 16 Z partner
00:31malinka Wally Elodie and James Rogers
00:33who is the CEO and founder of Appeal
00:35formerly Appeal technology appeal
00:38sciences and that's appeal with AP EE L
00:41not ap PE al we like our puns well it's
00:44really appealing and interesting the
00:52investment memo that I wrote up was full
00:54of puns I actually spend extra time
00:55thinking about the pitch the graphs on
01:03their slide so what I noticed
01:05we're color coded by the fruits and so
01:08okay we're giving a lot of insider
01:09knowledge let me just tell our audience
01:10what the hell we're talking about which
01:12is that you guys work with food
01:14technology and in particular one of the
01:17first products that you guys have out is
01:18a protective layer actually I'll let you
01:21describe what your product is we use
01:23food to preserve food which sounds
01:25really abstract and so to make it more
01:28tangible effectively what we do is we
01:31take uneaten plant material so things
01:33like stems leaves grape skins orange
01:35peels banana leaves whatever is
01:37available we blend those things up and
01:39then from those blends we extract very
01:42particular subsets of molecules when you
01:44think you blend those things up it
01:45sounds like a smooth you know it's not
01:46half a banana and the quarter of a
01:48strawberry or something like that we
01:49actually know down to the isomer what
01:50these materials are when we create these
01:52blends we and then extract those really
01:54particular subsets of materials I turn
01:57them into powders so they're lightweight
01:58they're low-cost to distribute and then
02:00we ship them to wherever we'd like to
02:02use them we reconstitute them in liquid
02:04form and we dip fresh produce into that
02:06solution and we allow it to dry so what
02:08first of all does that mean I'm going to
02:09be eating like a strawberry that's like
02:11covered in this weird material what's
02:13happening is what we're doing basically
02:15is taking materials from inside of that
02:18strawberry the structural building
02:19blocks the components that give the
02:22produce its actual structure we're
02:25extracting those and then we're
02:27reapplying them to the outside of the
02:29produce and so the materials we actually
02:31apply are imperceptible so I wouldn't
02:33taste it yeah you actually can't taste
02:35it it actually tastes much closer to the
02:38the fruit when it was actually picked
02:39originally what it's really doing is
02:41providing a protective layer that
02:42preserves its shelf-life that's exactly
02:45asking about strawberries in particular
02:47as an example because the one thing I
02:49know about strawberries apparently have
02:50the highest concentration of pesticides
02:52of any fruit like you have to like wash
02:54it like three times and I'm OCD so I
02:55wash my strawberries like five times so
02:57I get discussing layers off to make it
02:59fresh and healthy yeah it's really tough
03:02I mean strawberries are in a really
03:04difficult position and actually a lot of
03:06agriculture is this way in that the way
03:09that we grow food the way that nature
03:12produces things is through a systems
03:13approach it's got this huge complex
03:15system and part of the system is growing
03:17things and part of the system is
03:19breaking down things and recycling them
03:21it's got this whole machinery that's
03:23that's built up the problem is for us in
03:26commercial agriculture we don't care so
03:29much about the breakdown we don't really
03:30care about the the system diversity we
03:33just want to contain as many variables
03:35in that system as we possibly can and so
03:37what you end up doing and things like
03:39strawberries in particular really
03:40sensitive delicate fruit is that even
03:42before you get started you go out and
03:44you tarp the field and you hit it with
03:47something like you know methyl bromide
03:49or chloropicrin or you know hot steam
03:52which just carpet bombs everything
03:54that's in the soil and now you're able
03:56to plant your fruit and so it won't be
03:59attacked by any of those things that
04:00were that we're out there naturally but
04:02that leads to the ability of certain
04:05pass certain pests and pathogens to get
04:08into that system because there's no kind
04:10of natural defenses that are out there
04:12so so it's really it's really kind of
04:14interesting you know by solving one
04:15problem you you create other problems a
04:18long-winded way of saying there is you
04:20know significant amount of pesticide
04:22usage that's just required in order to
04:24get you fresh high-quality produce to
04:27currently the trick about what we're
04:29doing is that it's not some sort of
04:31synthetic material that Nature has never
04:33seen before we're just using the exact
04:35same building blocks that nature uses
04:37every single day and we're simply
04:39repurposing them for a different
04:41application so I want to say something
04:43that's probably not very popular in this
04:44room which is that sounds like a
04:46high-class problem to me because I've
04:48been to countries where you actually
04:49don't get a lot of fruits and choice and
04:51what you eat like you actually can only
04:53get certain items certain times of year
04:56and so it's certainly very useful it's
04:58preserving food but like what is a
05:00benefit overall like when you think of
05:02the food these ecosystem as a whole like
05:04what does it really do for us so it's
05:07interesting you know it's a high-class
05:09problem and indeed you know preserving
05:11fresh berries is is definitely a
05:13high-class problem you know if the joke
05:15it you know the retail level is that the
05:17berry consumer spends twice the number
05:19of dollars in the grocery store is the
05:20non very consuming and show it to
05:23Driscoll's that's that's true Wow
05:25and so it's so in that sense yeah
05:27absolutely you can actually put numbers
05:29to it preserving berries is a high-class
05:31problem the interesting thing about that
05:32though is that perishability affects
05:34every single kind of produce on this
05:37planet and that means that it's either
05:39feast or famine in most parts of the
05:40world particularly if you only have a if
05:43you're a small or farming only growing
05:44one type of crop so my example I always
05:47pick on is you know if you're a mango
05:48farmer in the developing world and
05:56they're so seasonal you can only get
05:59them at certain times a year really
06:02so the problem with perishability is
06:04really that everything is seasoned
06:05what's also perishable and that means
06:07that if I'm growing a particular
06:10commodity in a portion of the world that
06:12does not have access to a market where
06:14I'm able to turn that commodity into
06:17money then it doesn't even matter if I'm
06:19growing that that food I'm not able to
06:21earn economic returns for my labour and
06:24so what ends up happening is you end up
06:28having nature doing its thing growing
06:30all of this you know produce that's
06:32inherently valuable but because of the
06:35perishability because of the inability
06:37to get that produce from the place that
06:40to the market where someone was actually
06:41willing to pay for it you returned none
06:44of the economic value for your labor so
06:46it's all about market access so in the
06:48case of mangoes if I'm a farmer in India
06:50who's growing mangoes and I am a
06:52consumer in the US who wants those
06:54mangoes currently I probably really
06:56can't get them it comes really down to
06:58transport ability and transportation
07:00costs so for example in the case of
07:03avocados you know that the price of
07:05shipping a box of avocados to China is
07:08more expensive than the box whatõs
07:10itself because because of perishability
07:13you have to air freight them in it's not
07:15just the distance and the cost but
07:17because of the perishability
07:18it requires a faster mode of
07:21transportation so and you can actually
07:22you can look at in really interesting
07:24ways I mean the way I always think about
07:26the world is that again I keep coming
07:28back to this all produce is seasonal
07:30ones also perishable and so you can look
07:31around the world around where produce is
07:33available at different times of year
07:35where it's able to be grown and then you
07:37know the overall shelf life of that
07:39commodity and you know how fast a boat
07:41can move you know how fast the plane can
07:42fly and so you can draw basically you
07:45know a circle around those production
07:47regions and show where produce is
07:50available basically at what cost
07:52throughout the year what we're able to
07:55do is dramatically extend the shelf life
07:57of that produce which dramatically
08:00expands the the overall radius of
08:02availability of fresh produce which
08:04opens up new export markets for
08:06customers that actually goes in both
08:08directions to if you're a grower in
08:10California or the Midwest
08:12you can now sell to China like your
08:14avocados oh yeah but on the flip side if
08:16you are a grower in India who has
08:18avocados you can now sell them to
08:20California or anywhere else you're
08:23totally correct that this absolutely
08:25goes both ways and it it's actually
08:27really fortunate that it goes both ways
08:28because if you're a smaller farmer out
08:30in the middle of nowhere and you've got
08:33a thousand mangos and you're your
08:34neighbors got a thousand mangos and your
08:36other neighbors got a thousand mangos
08:37you can't sell a mango to your neighbor
08:40to save your life just a race at the
08:41bottom because you can't at you have no
08:43margins weight and they're just rot and
08:46that's the it's you know was said to me
08:48once the for fresh produce the tyranny
08:50of time and that really resonated with
08:53because if you think about the position
08:54a smaller farmer is in when a trader
08:57comes to them that trader has the best
09:00leverage in the world because they know
09:01that they can just sit outside the farm
09:03until the mangoes rot and then say well
09:07you either sell them to me now or or
09:09sorry I'm leaving and so the smaller
09:11farmers often left in a situation to say
09:13well I can either earn two shillings per
09:15mango or nothing and what we found in
09:18talking to smaller farmers is that if
09:20you can extend the shelf life of a mango
09:22by an extra week they can earn an extra
09:24three to five shillings per mango so you
09:28it's a I mean it's amazing right you
09:30think about being able to just write
09:32preserving produce an extra week be able
09:34to earn two to three times more for that
09:37exact same commodity that's a dramatic
09:40improvement in in the amount of economic
09:43value those small holders are able to
09:44capture so you know a few times you've
09:46mentioned small farmers let's talk about
09:48the economics of farming in general and
09:50produce and food so people talk about
09:52big food to the capital B in a capital F
09:54you knows a lot of politics around that
09:56topic but politics aside what is the
09:58ecosystem for farm and food production
10:00look like there's small farms there's
10:01there's middlemen there's big farms like
10:04what's what's the yeah I mean generally
10:07speaking right there's there's you know
10:09producers you know which is a really
10:12large number of disaggregated relatively
10:15small farms or some huge farming
10:17operations but a bunch of really
10:18disaggregated small farms and then
10:20there's a relatively concentrated number
10:23of growers shippers that definitely grow
10:25some portion of the crop that they're
10:27shipping but then they aggregate or buy
10:29from a bunch of those disaggregated
10:30growers then there's the the you know
10:33grower shippers who are handling most of
10:35the transportation and then there's
10:37retailers basically and this can be food
10:40service channel or just a general
10:41retailer and then there's really the end
10:43consumer now there's some kind of side
10:45alleys in there and kind of different
10:47niches but that's kind of the general
10:49organization the problem with some of
10:50these they just don't have that
10:51electricity you know would have
10:53infrastructure to support coal storage
10:54the way you extend the shelf life of
10:57fruit is very coal storage
10:58I'm super happy you brought that up
11:00Malaika because and if you look at
11:01spoilage rates in the United States and
11:03you know the numbers are kind of all
11:05over the place but they're between a
11:06and a half of what we're growing at they
11:08say it's particularly ridiculous when
11:13you consider the amount of resources
11:14that go into producing that food right
11:16you know those are around 80% of fresh
11:18water going into irrigation you know all
11:21the pesticide usage that ends up you
11:23know running into the water streams that
11:25ends that's you know putting pesticides
11:27on fruit that we're not even eating all
11:29the human capital that goes into it you
11:31know all the fertilizer all this stuff
11:33and then ultimately a massive massive
11:35amount of its ending up in landfill and
11:36the funny thing about that it's actually
11:38horribly unfunny is that that's in the
11:41u.s. we've got this incredible
11:43technology an incredible supply chain
11:45and the way that we've been able to get
11:47down to you know 1/3 or you know 40% of
11:50our produce being thrown away is that
11:53we've been able to use refrigeration
11:55where you only use low temperature
11:56technology to basically slow everything
11:58down inside the fruit and that that
12:00works that's work that's gotten us to
12:02about you know throwing away a third if
12:04you call that working now as you start
12:05talking about trying to be able to
12:07reduce losses which can be you know 80
12:1090 percent of a harvest in the
12:11developing world if you want to just
12:13piggyback off what we've done in the in
12:14the quote/unquote developed world you're
12:17trying to say oh well everyone should
12:18just implement a cold chain well that's
12:20really hard to tell a farmer to do in
12:23the developing world where there's
12:24hardly roads let alone electricity grid
12:27let alone the capital equipment
12:28necessary to do the refrigeration and so
12:31I often think of it as distributing you
12:33know refrigerators in a packet should
12:35treat their mangoes and get an extra 10
12:37or 15 days of shelf life out of those
12:38without needing to do all the
12:41infrastructure development necessary I
12:42love this theme we've you know did a
12:44podcast recently on drones and it is
12:47about how certain technologies can help
12:49you leapfrog a lack of infrastructure
12:51and essentially create this gonzo
12:53infrastructure essentially and it's
12:55interesting it plays out from both
12:56mobile where you have entire countries
12:58leapfrogging existing PC inking
13:00infrastructure to go to mobile straight
13:02and be mobile first in this case like in
13:04zipline and drones and Ronda it's
13:07literally leap frogging but there's a
13:08lack of roads and medical infrastructure
13:10yeah I literally was thinking on the
13:12same lines which is using technology to
13:14compensate for the lack of traditional
13:16infrastructure right like with zipline
13:18you're you're having them drummed
13:20liver medical supplies to compensate for
13:22the fact that in of roads and medical
13:24infrastructure you guys are compensating
13:26with your technology for the fact that
13:27they don't have you know electricity
13:28cold storage infrastructure
13:30you mentioned mobile it actually does
13:32this all linked together it does but
13:33it's fascinating that use the word
13:34compensate because yes technically it is
13:36a sort of compensation but I think the
13:38interesting thread to me is that it's
13:39such an opportunity for an entirely new
13:42system that bypasses existing systems
13:43it's actually a way to to go outside and
13:46when you think of like the full stack
13:46startup I'd not to get all crazy riffey
13:48the thing that's really interesting that
13:49makes companies like lyft and uber work
13:51versus the traditional taxi services
13:53companies according to Chris Dixon's
13:54full stack you know startups thesis is
13:56that you're essentially bypassing
13:57existing systems in order to do it so
14:00it's just a really fascinating theme in
14:01general when I think about how
14:02innovation happens oh yeah I mean it's
14:04exactly I think about it as well you
14:06know one of the ways I look at our
14:07product as well as infrastructure and a
14:09packet you've got really poor roads and
14:11now you're able to get that produce a
14:13certain distance before it goes bad well
14:15if you double the shelf life of that
14:17produce it's effectively like doubling
14:19the rate that you're able to travel on
14:20that road if you kind of think about it
14:22that way and essentially opening up
14:24entirely new ways of competing with
14:27people who have an entrenched position
14:29in existing infrastructure absolutely
14:31and the other I think interesting point
14:33around that is what we've done in the
14:35United States is that we've built up
14:37these supply chains around the intrinsic
14:39constraints of the piece of produce and
14:41this whole supply chain has been
14:43established just understanding this is
14:45the limitation of that piece of produce
14:47you show up in Nigeria and you give
14:49somebody a packet of material that's
14:51able to make their tomato last twice as
14:54long they're not going how does this
14:56affect the temperature that I'm supposed
14:58to store my tomatoes during cold and
15:02you're actually building from scratch as
15:04opposed to trying to wedge into an
15:06existing supply chain so although it's
15:08you know difficult and challenging for
15:10particular reasons to deliver these
15:12technologies into into developing
15:13countries the white space or the
15:16opportunities are actually really I
15:17think an interesting kind of proving
15:19ground for what the ultimate power of
15:21the technology really can be I agree and
15:23it's redefining technology to me in an
15:25interesting way because when I think of
15:26the typical cold chain
15:28I remember anecdotes from companies that
15:30were doing like thin film electronics
15:32and they would do like these third of
15:33disposable sensors as a way of putting
15:36really cheap RFID tags in order to tag
15:39the status of where it is in the supply
15:40chain and keep a certain temperature
15:41level and be able to monitor it
15:43continuously there's all these
15:44interesting probably very useful
15:46complicated technologies in the existing
15:48system but what you're essentially doing
15:49is bypassing that with an entirely
15:52different very natural form of
15:54technology which brings me to my next
15:56question which is what is the technology
15:58in the quote traditional or
16:00non-traditional sense that we're talking
16:02about here because it's kind of
16:03interesting like you're essentially
16:04describing shredded plant parts I think
16:07there's just an important distinction to
16:09be made and that classically the
16:11technologies that we employ in
16:12agriculture I think are what I would so
16:16I've kind of gone through this kind of
16:17mental exercise of what is a chemical
16:19and what's a what is a molecule and
16:22that's a really interesting mental
16:23exercise I guess nerds I guess why does
16:26the difference between a chemical and
16:27molecule MIT and this is my definition
16:29but what I've landed on is you know for
16:32millions and millions of years Nature
16:34has used the same building blocks and
16:36it's just basically broken them down and
16:38recycled them into different forms very
16:40efficient thing for a nature it to do an
16:44incredibly efficient thing is it's
16:45actually you know one of the only you
16:47know nonzero-sum games that I can really
16:49think of I think it's beautiful and
16:51elegant the way that's been put together
16:52but it's done pretty damn well without
16:54us for millions and millions of years
16:55and then we came along and said oh a
16:57nature you've got these beautiful well
16:59thought out so I'll thought out you know
17:01systems in place and what we're gonna do
17:04is we're gonna we see the mechanism that
17:06you're using to do that we're gonna
17:07develop a new chemistry or a new
17:08molecule that's gonna interfere with
17:10that particular machinery the problem is
17:12is that those processes that we
17:14generally interfere with are really
17:17valuable processes that's why they've
17:18stuck around for so long and so they're
17:20used by many many many different types
17:22of life-forms and so it's incredibly
17:24challenging to poison one bug without
17:26poisoning every single bug that's out
17:28there even the good ones what nature has
17:30done is not generate you know kind of a
17:32poison to kill things it's you used the
17:35exact same molecules it's just combined
17:37them in different ways to form different
17:40structures and those structures
17:42generally provide protection from the
17:44external environment whether it be this
17:47reptiles or the you know the the skin on
17:51the leaf of a plant it's like a whole
17:53new form of combinatorial innovation if
17:55that's what you're saying in Silicon
17:57Valley you know in a way there's a lot
18:02that goes into it and empirically
18:04actually like this is not an idea what
18:05we're doing right monks discovered in
18:07the Middle Ages that you were able to
18:08dip apples and beeswax and they would
18:10last throughout the winter that was a
18:12pretty incredible innovation at the time
18:15especially considering lack of lack of
18:16access to refrigeration the same thing
18:18is true of beauty products like being
18:20able to layer on layers of oils or it's
18:23the same kind of thing with skin and
18:24preservation because skin is perishable
18:25skin is very fresh actually if either
18:28the number one question I get is can I
18:29use this on my skin I was about to say
18:31when I saw your pitch I was like my mind
18:32jumped into all kinds of makeup products
18:35yeah yeah it's a really interesting
18:37nature's have provided us this
18:39incredible tool kit of different
18:41molecules that are available to us and
18:44that us as material scientists are in a
18:47fortunate position now with today's
18:48technology to be able to isolate those
18:51materials from nature look at them as if
18:54they were a Lego and say what would this
18:56be useful for and what with I if I
18:59combine it with this other Lego and I
19:01let these things dry together will they
19:03form a structure that could give me some
19:04really interesting problems when you say
19:07that that way it's a beautiful simple of
19:09a simpler explanation of what you're
19:10doing but actually what you're doing is
19:12actually pretty complex and complicated
19:13requires a lot of hard science what are
19:15some of the challenges you have to
19:16overcome to be able to create those
19:17legos and building blocks or
19:19combinatorial innovation so for me to be
19:22able to sit here and abstract to the
19:2430,000 foot level of analogy of Legos I
19:27have to have a team of 62 very very
19:31talented individuals composed of you
19:33know over 50 scientists and 15 of those
19:36are PhD scientists material science in
19:39across disciplines chemistry
19:41biochemistry material science Chemical
19:44Engineering mechanical engineering so
19:46across a wide range of disciplines and
19:48it actually requires each of those
19:50disciplines because one discipline is
19:52looking at how do we extract these
19:53materials how do we purify these
19:55materials which is a one discipline how
19:57do we how do we take and confirm what
19:59these materials are which is the
20:00analytical chemistry how do we then
20:02combine these things in different ways
20:04to form interesting structures that's
20:06material science how do we analyze these
20:08things that's you know more than the
20:09physics realm how do we have enzymes
20:11make these things for us that's
20:13biochemistry so come work for you you
20:15should definitely it's really incredible
20:16but what we've been able to do basically
20:18is rally this group of incredibly
20:20talented people around this core focus
20:23of leverage nature's operating system to
20:26solve problems that nature solved before
20:29basically by just blatantly copying what
20:32nature is doing a lot of people
20:33sometimes I feel they overused that
20:35analogy of an operating system but I
20:36think in this case it really applies I
20:39mean there is no other way to describe
20:40it for us in the in the physical realm
20:42like nature's operating system is are
20:44the laws of physics and we just want to
20:47use that system understand as much as we
20:50can and then take pieces and let the
20:52operating operating system operate on
20:55them it feels like a different type of
20:56x-ray vision where instead of just
20:58looking at the object and seeing okay
21:00that's a water bottle
21:01knowing down to the molecule what it's
21:04made out of why it has the properties it
21:06has and how you could impact those
21:09properties by changing what the water
21:10bottle is made it's not like how artists
21:12or photographers see the world
21:13differently when they paint or capture
21:16you just look at scenes very differently
21:18because you bring your craft at a very
21:19deep x-ray level that's cool the day
21:26what you're doing is super interesting
21:27what are some of the other challenges at
21:28least iteration cycle when it really
21:31comes down to it you know I love
21:32programming computers because I'll write
21:34some code and I'll get a debug error it
21:36says you did something wrong you need to
21:38fix it you know the challenge in the
21:40turtle science and I'm just broadly
21:41speaking about material science here is
21:42when you want to hit compile it might
21:45mean six years of PhD work to compile
21:49the system that you might get one data
21:51set out of and that iteration time
21:53really kills a lot of I think companies
21:56that are looking at getting into
21:58materials based company you guys
22:01overcome that I mean you can't bypass it
22:03all together so a number of members of
22:05my team you know spent their PhD
22:07basically learning different techniques
22:09technique development to basically
22:11access new understanding of some
22:14fundamental set of molecules and so I
22:16think at our core we have this kind of
22:18respect for not just using off-the-shelf
22:20technology to get general information
22:22but really committing to understanding
22:25and learning and new technique or
22:26developing a new piece of equipment that
22:28can help speed up some of those
22:30iteration cycles and material science if
22:32you come by and visit our office you'll
22:33see a large number of systems analysis
22:36systems that we've built ourselves that
22:38we've had to make the investment of time
22:40and money in that you would say well oh
22:43no you just need to keep it in the fence
22:45keep it in the fence but when you're
22:47when you're just hitting the fence and
22:48you don't have that feedback mechanism
22:50then you can't tighten that loop you
22:52lose the iteration and then when you
22:54lose the iteration your probability
22:55success drops diplomas dramatically so
22:57we've really made the investment in
22:59developing our own tools for
23:02characterizing these systems so when you
23:04have that infrastructure for
23:05characterization or rapid prototyping do
23:07you then make a trade-off
23:08and your ability to then scale things
23:10because then you're not using existing
23:11scaling things I'm thinking of the
23:13analogy of semiconductors and when
23:15people used to prototype custom chips
23:16versus this is we're at a really
23:20incredible time in history right now
23:22where you don't have to do that for most
23:25of the stuff you don't do that anymore
23:26because you can buy an Arduino unit for
23:29$12 yeah and you can program what you
23:32used to have to solder a PCB board to do
23:34yeah this is true in the material
23:36science of the food that you're working
23:37on for us our entire office runs on
23:40raspberry PI's and Arduino units that
23:42control controllers to measure different
23:45stuff and the great thing about that is
23:46they are scalable because you just go
23:48buy another $40.00 computer that has a
23:50wireless card built into it they
23:52communicate from halfway around the
23:54world hook a couple custom-built
23:56peripherals into that and you've scaled
23:58that system so I would I think I would
24:01have agreed with you you know five six
24:03years ago yeah but with basically they
24:06have been of frankly the Arduino unit
24:08we've really been able to scale this I
24:09mean and 3d printing so I mean all of
24:12our time-lapse systems are built with 3d
24:13printed lab system allows us to monitor
24:16the physical aging fresh produce as a
24:19function of time it this is like super
24:20nerdy if we're gonna geek out let's get
24:22out I spent a lot of my PhD work using
24:25transmission electron microscopy to
24:27graffiti to view things on really really
24:30short length scales on nanometer length
24:32scales and really look at things and
24:33really find detail and the time-lapse
24:36photography for us for me feels like a
24:39different kind of microscope it allows
24:40us to kind of view the world without
24:42time in terms of produce aging which
24:44really has led to some really incredible
24:46realizations about the physical aging
24:49process of fresh produce that's led to
24:51some really interesting developments at
24:53the company you're literally compressing
24:55and adding an entire new dimension to
24:56your view because of the cheapness of
24:59being able to do 3d printing all the
25:01other things we would not have been able
25:02to do this more than eight eight years
25:04ago probably I started in material
25:07science as well and and and I eventually
25:08moved on to more to more of the software
25:10world because of the problem that you
25:11just mentioned which is it's hard to
25:13iterate and and I always thought that
25:15material sciences was sort of confined
25:17to R&D there was a really good time for
25:19material science I think a while ago
25:20with semiconductors but I thought today
25:22it's mainly R&D so but I think because
25:24of some of the things you just mentioned
25:25it's becoming possible to build a
25:28company based off of material sense
25:30today more and more yeah where it's not
25:31just like a tool or a feature but it is
25:34a it is a core of a product and and I
25:37think the most exciting things in
25:38material science in general are things
25:40like lino flexible electronics the
25:41future of that I mean to me all these
25:43things are interconnected because I
25:44think that held a lot of this innovation
25:46back before in the past was that there
25:47was a lack of supply chain for materials
25:49or the ability for different groups to
25:50work together or systems to rapidly
25:52prototype and then figure out to scat to
25:54scale and when you have all these
25:55different companies now coming into the
25:57space just material science being taken
25:59more seriously as a core enabler for new
26:02types of tech it's kind of phenomenal
26:05it's possible to see the funny thing to
26:07me is material science has been
26:09fundamental to us as a species look at
26:11how we've designed our ages a stone age
26:15next eel age right silicon age we define
26:19our development as a species by what
26:23material set we have available to us I
26:25don't think it's that surprising yeah
26:27that that material science is becoming
26:29really interesting again because you
26:31know I view material science is bridging
26:33the gap between what's available and
26:35what's useful how you can you combine
26:37what's available to give you something
26:39that's useful I'll give you some
26:40set of properties that enable some some
26:42new advancement the fruits are almost
26:46inconceivable of material science
26:47innovations I mean think about if
26:49someone you're saying in this case for
27:00imagine you're living the society today
27:02and you event steal right you're it's
27:05just it's everywhere it's everywhere on
27:08this planet and so although the the
27:09opportunities for gain in the material
27:12science are just I think unfathomable
27:14almost it's incredibly difficult to do
27:17because material science is generally or
27:21is such an interdisciplinary field
27:22that's exactly I love about it so much
27:24if I could go back and do school all
27:25over I would do material science and the
27:27challenge is you can do so many
27:28different things in materials you can be
27:29doing the chemistry you can be the
27:31characterization you could be doing the
27:32measurement into the property stuff you
27:34do structural like you do so many
27:35different things and I used to say I
27:37don't care how you make it I just need a
27:40little have you show me the structure on
27:42paper and I can tell you what's useful
27:43for but that's a big problem right when
27:45talking about supply chain to building a
27:47business ok great my skill set is around
27:50knowing what molecules can do and how to
27:52characterize them I have no idea
27:54generally how to make them and so
27:56without being able to connect those
27:58skill sets people who know what to do
28:00with them and the people who know how to
28:02make them and then manufacture at scale
28:05and then you know do all this other
28:06stuff it's really difficult to come
28:08together so a very hard problem I
28:09wouldn't disagree yeah in general but
28:11are some of the interesting things you
28:12think are happening because I feel like
28:13people talk a lot about materials like
28:14graphene and what are the things that
28:16are happening in the industry that are
28:17high level interesting to you in that
28:19space I would probably say probably the
28:21main breakthrough that will change a ton
28:24of technologies or all across this
28:26battery technology yeah right as if we
28:28can get a higher storage lighter longer
28:31lasting batteries that will change a lot
28:33right it will change everything from
28:34drones to VR to literally every industry
28:37but that that it's it's unclear if there
28:40will be a private company innovation of
28:41that will be created or of a government
28:43lab some right one of the things that's
28:44really interesting about material
28:45science is unlike a lot of the other
28:47disciplines maybe because it is
28:48cross-disciplinary he does the one where
28:50I still think a lot of government-led in
28:52and funding is the most important
28:54because they are the heads they're the
28:56most interested and like really thinking
28:58of the next generation of materialism
29:00well and they're training the people
29:01that are gonna do the work yeah right I
29:02mean all of our team and we couldn't
29:05have hired straight out of undergrad and
29:06test them to do it there with what they
29:08do for us now I mean they needed the
29:09training that came from government
29:11supported programs to do the core
29:14fundamental science that underlies what
29:16we're doing yeah for me I think the the
29:18part that I really get excited about is
29:20in the field of additive manufacturing I
29:23mean I look at a 3d printer now and we
29:25use them in our office and you know work
29:27extruding a thermoplastic elastomer you
29:30know out of a heated nozzle and we're
29:32just you know basically making a
29:34structure and letting you know melting
29:35it and letting it dry and I look at that
29:37and go wow who's gonna develop the HP of
29:403d printing with the different inks that
29:42are all from material science
29:44understanding that allows you to print
29:46fully functional you know three a fully
29:49functional device and we can't do we
29:52don't do that now or and maybe you know
29:53with the combination of laser sintering
29:55some other stuff but if you start
29:56thinking about like combining chemistry
29:59and you know mechanical engineering and
30:01robotics which give you 3d printing with
30:04material science which gives you the ink
30:05I think the opportunities for doing you
30:08know local manufacturing or just kind of
30:10example I think of is this initiative a
30:13lot of people from NASA to Autodesk that
30:14I've been working on which is bringing
30:163d printing to be able to like recreate
30:18entire new structures in space so that
30:20you don't actually build what you need
30:21that's like a local manufacturing on
30:23crack I mean I think in the future
30:27you're gonna have a fancy 3d printer in
30:29your home and how wealthy you are is
30:31gonna be what type of 3d printer you
30:33have if you're really wealthy you can
30:34print the latest and greatest iPhone if
30:36you're not so wealthy maybe you can only
30:38print you know shoes or something like
30:40that well let's close on talking about
30:42your our vision for the future of food
30:44what do you guys see the future grocery
30:46stores looking like I mean does this
30:48change the what shows up on our shelves
30:50that's actually the thing that probably
30:52gets me most excited you know there's a
30:54reason that if you you know held up a
30:56dozen different kinds of produce that
30:58most people could name those common
31:00dozen kinds of produce but if you think
31:02about the genetic diversity that exists
31:05planet there are millions and millions
31:08of different kinds of produce the reason
31:11that you've not able to identify them is
31:13that you don't live in a region in the
31:14world in which they're grown or you
31:16don't live in a region to which that
31:18those products are able to be imported
31:21into and so you know when I think about
31:23what happens is you know when you look
31:25at what plant breeders do basically is
31:27when they're breeding a new crop they're
31:29looking down the list and the number one
31:31thing on their list is transport ability
31:32and taste nutrition is like level 12 or
31:3513 on the list you know it takes really
31:37significant investment for big companies
31:40to be developing breeding programs and
31:42those breeding cycles are like eight
31:43years long and so you need to do soup
31:45and a massive investment to companies
31:47need varieties and so one of the
31:49divisions the future that I get really
31:50excited about is the opportunity to
31:52extend the shelf life of a crop so that
31:55smaller produce variety can make it into
31:57it make it into a grocery store and this
31:59is the same value proposition for a
32:02small organic grower in the United
32:04States as it is for a small holder
32:06farmers in the developing world same
32:08thing with an organic farmer in the US
32:09and one crop that we worked on that we
32:12never thought we'd work on are called
32:13finger limes and check them out if you
32:17they're natively from Australia but they
32:19were brought into the United States
32:21about eight years ago now government
32:24didn't make them record a video to
32:25apologize for bringing them in sorry
32:31ex-wife now and bringing their dog to us
32:36which shellfish yeah oh yeah oh yeah so
32:39there's a really interesting there
32:40actually another branch of citrus but
32:42you cut them open and they look like
32:43caviar pearls and each of those little
32:45pearls has a citrus flavor to it
32:48I know that my finger limes caviar limes
32:49or cocktail limes okay but they're
32:51really these incredible little citrus
32:53fruit and the challenge with them is you
32:56know the broad in the US they grow a
32:57bunch of them but the shelf-life of
32:59these things is like five days maybe a
33:02supply chain that that only lasts five
33:04doesn't get you into very many stores
33:06it's just not really commercially viable
33:07and so we've been able to extend the
33:09shelf life out to like 25 days what's
33:11normal in terms of like so I grew up
33:13part of my life in Sri Lanka
33:14you know what's normal here apples
33:16bananas berries is actually really rare
33:17there and what's normal there is like
33:19mangoush rambutan all these things that
33:21people have never heard of and some of
33:22them are just incredibly delicious and
33:24more so than anything you'd find here
33:26you just don't get access to Muir so
33:28like some future world you can more that
33:31you can move that around and what's and
33:33you know what you'll eat is is not the
33:35most transportable food it's just the
33:36best fruit exactly it's no longer
33:38constrained by only time or
33:40transparently and not just the best type
33:42of fruit but the best grower right and
33:45fruit that's grown in regions that for
33:48example strawberries is grown in
33:49Watsonville and bred in Watsonville and
33:51now you're transporting that down in New
33:52Mexico to grow that fruit was optimized
33:55for growth in Watsonville right that
33:57genetic variety might not be the best
33:59one in Mexico but because doing a
34:02breeding program in in a bunch of you
34:03know disparate places to match a local
34:06geography is so cost prohibitive you
34:09just go with that produce that's better
34:11suited to the growing environment that
34:13it's actually in you know you can
34:14actually improve yields relative to what
34:16they'd be if they were bred in another
34:17it just allows new entry points like you
34:19said for all different types of new
34:20players its democratizing access on both
34:22ends and this is a theme that I love but
34:24the other thing that you know earlier
34:26you mentioned how you can do a map of
34:27all the fruit around the world and map
34:28the times and they're perishability
34:30and it reminded me the image that popped
34:32into my mind is this map that makes its
34:34rounds on Twitter that's really popular
34:35of countries organized by the most
34:37popular social network it's essentially
34:39a way of showing this this dissolution
34:42of borders and and movement through
34:44technology and what I love about what
34:46you're describing is you can now
34:47essentially remake that map that you
34:49described of all this produce and buy
34:51perishable life by shelf life and
34:54location and essentially just move it
34:57all over and make time not matter yeah
34:59or not matter as much pretty big effing
35:04deal James thank you for joining the a
35:066nz podcast thank you so much for having
