00:00welcome to the a 16c podcast I'm Michael
00:02Copeland and today sonal and I are lucky
00:04to have Alec Ross with us on the podcast
00:06and Ross has a new book out industries
00:09of the future he was the senior advisor
00:12for innovation to Hillary Clinton when
00:15she was Secretary of State and Alec you
00:18also worked for President Obama during
00:20the first two years of his initial
00:22presidential campaign that's right
00:23that's right he actually the reason why
00:25Hillary hired me was because I helped
00:27beat her I helped run technology and
00:29media policy for his presidential
00:31campaign and so that we when she then
00:33became Secretary of State she recruited
00:36me to run the innovation agenda though I
00:38should know from at the very beginning
00:40of this podcast that did not include
00:42responsibilities for home-brewed email
00:45servers yeah we're gonna talk about
00:50Hillary Clinton and politics later but
00:52Alec welcome to the podcast we're glad
00:54that you're here thank you yeah one of
00:56the things you know that really
00:57intrigues us about the topic of your
00:59book is we've covered a lot of different
01:00countries and experiences and and how
01:03each of those regions encounters tech
01:06with voices on the ground in each of
01:07those places from Nigeria Kenya South
01:10Africa India China Myanmar we've just
01:14covered a lot of different regions and
01:16we think you have a really unique
01:18perspective that goes across like 196
01:21countries the view of the entire
01:22chessboard and how it all comes together
01:23and so we're really interested in
01:25hearing your perspective starting from
01:27there my assistant did Mia really I did
01:30me a real disservice recently where she
01:32actually totaled up my travel over the
01:34last five or six years and apparently I
01:36have travelled the equivalent of 25
01:38circumference --is of the globe Wow two
01:42round trips to the moon with a side trip
01:44to New Zealand the mileage felt like I
01:48am but you know it's but look it's been
01:51a wonderful experience and part of what
01:53I've seen is that there are some very
01:55interesting things happening around the
01:57globe in terms of innovation technology
01:59development entrepreneurship and what
02:02the benefits to states and societies are
02:04for that and I've come to sort of one
02:06sweeping conclusion that's
02:08forward-looking and that is I think that
02:10the principal political binary of the
02:1320th century was left versus right who's
02:16the political left versus the political
02:18right but in the 21st century in the
02:20present day the principal political bark
02:23binary is open versus closed I think
02:27that the real tension both inside
02:30countries and across countries are those
02:33that embrace more open economic
02:35political and cultural systems versus
02:38those that are more closed and the
02:41conclusion that I've come to in all of
02:43this thinking about the industries of
02:45the future not necessarily looking back
02:47at the 20 years of digitization and the
02:50rise of the consumer internet but
02:51looking forward to the next 20 years
02:53trying to be deterministic about how
02:55political systems map to economic
02:58outcomes I think that the states and
03:01societies that are more open are those
03:04that will compete and succeed most
03:06effectively in tomorrow's industries
03:08obviously there's gradations of open and
03:10closed and so are we talking China
03:13Myanmar and then Germany and I mean when
03:17you say open and closed how do you
03:19define it and what are the sort of
03:21spectrum that you're talking about
03:22that's a really important question and
03:24the key word that you brought out there
03:25is spectrum there is no perfectly open
03:28society in no perfectly closed society
03:31the closest to a perfectly closed
03:33society might be might be North Korea
03:35and that and the closest to a perfectly
03:38open society might be Iceland but look
03:40the United States is far from being a
03:42perfectly open society what I mean when
03:44I say open versus closed is I mean I
03:48mean there is widespread acceptance of
03:53all all types of minorities there is an
03:58an active attempt to maximize the role
04:02and place for women in the economy it is
04:05the most open Passa the most open system
04:09possible to allow for capital formation
04:12entrepreneurship innovation and then you
04:15know basically and then cultural
04:18characteristics that lend themselves to
04:22imagination and invention and so on the
04:24far end of the spectrum you've got
04:27Western certain Western societies in
04:29certain Eastern societies and on that
04:31for opposite of that you've got some
04:33former Soviet societies and a decreasing
04:36number of Asian societies I'm glad you
04:38didn't paint that as black and white as
04:40east and west to Alec because I don't
04:41pet peeves when people talk about open
04:43versus closed it's like they can flate
04:44open with the west and close with the
04:47East and I'm just really glad that
04:48you're not doing that I also think it's
04:50interesting because you're talking about
04:51these macro cultural conditions and
04:54they're also micro economic ways that
04:57open and close play out I mean you
04:58alluded to it a little bit when you
04:59talked about IP and and sort of sharing
05:02of ideas but even down to open source
05:05versus not even considering technologies
05:07that come from outside one's company or
05:09non-compete arrange agreements and the
05:12movement of people and human capital
05:14across organizations so it's kind of
05:16interesting to sort of take that back up
05:18a little and think about some of the
05:19policy aspects cuz you more than anyone
05:22then has seen this perspective across
05:24all these governments so where does this
05:25policy role especially with government
05:27and also outside of government come into
05:29all this oh that's a first of all I'm in
05:31violent agreement with everything you
05:33that you said sonal and government
05:35policies are deterministic in terms of
05:40the degree to which these economic
05:42systems are open or closed and the
05:44degree to which it's easy or difficult
05:45to be an entrepreneur and since you
05:48brought up the point that this doesn't
05:50sort of hit the West against the East
05:52and it's like oh hip-hip hooray for us
05:55white folks in the United States and
05:56Europe and you know against you know
05:58those of you elsewhere you know let me
06:00actually pick on the united states and
06:01parts of europe for a moment so in
06:04Europe you can see an inclination
06:06towards being increasingly closed around
06:08policies like data sovereignty right you
06:12know when you think about when I think
06:14about the kind of policy making being
06:16done by you know Eurocrats and Brussels
06:20who have never had a private sector job
06:22before or you know other white shirt red
06:25tie pinstriped government officials and
06:29in Berlin or Rome or elsewhere they're
06:33very stringent rule they're very
06:36stringent rules on how data flows you're
06:39alluding to things like right to be for
06:41gotten safe-harbor those types of data
06:43things well also that I have to set up
06:45my server if I want to do business in
06:47your country I got to have a server
06:48there exactly like the whole concept of
06:50cloud computing right is cutting across
06:54the grain of what government of the of
06:56the data privacy's that are putting
06:58being put in place if you think about
07:00the business models and the technology
07:03development that's taking place in
07:05Silicon Valley and elsewhere that's
07:06that's maximizing the potential of the
07:09cloud governments in Western Europe are
07:12basically building a series of
07:14regulations and laws that work across
07:17the grain of the way that the cloud
07:19works to also let's be critical of the
07:22United States for a second here
07:23the rise of surveillance has the effect
07:27of closing us off in many respects so
07:30instead of instead of allowing for
07:34frictionless communication and
07:36collaboration in the US a lot of what we
07:38see are control freak instincts coming
07:41from Washington trying to get access to
07:45and control of a lot of our information
07:50and so I think you know the battle
07:52between being open and being closed
07:54plays out here in the United States as
07:56well well let's let's also remembered
07:58and I think you wouldn't disagree with
08:00us given your past history but these are
08:02legitimate concerns that we have I mean
08:04I mean those where you talk about those
08:06bureaucrats and I agree they can be a
08:07little technocratic about how they
08:09approach things especially having not
08:10had the experience of working in private
08:12sector which is unlike here I there's
08:14been a real shift it seems in the past
08:1610 years where a lot more private sector
08:18employees from the technology industry
08:20have been going to Washington it does
08:22seem that you know there there does need
08:24to be a way to also meet their concerns
08:26and I mean are there ways to navigate
08:28that do you see any things that help us
08:31there absolutely I mean when I was in
08:33government working for at the State
08:36Department you know a lot of what I
08:37worked on was cooked on counterterrorism
08:39programs and you know that they're
08:42absolutely I I'm a big believer in the
08:44work of the NSA in terms of how it is
08:47how its mission is defined and I think
08:49that they do a lot of great work the
08:54the question is you know what kind of
08:56what kind of framework are they gonna
08:58work in and I think that it is perfectly
09:00reasonable for there to be close
09:03collaboration between the technology
09:05community and the intelligence and law
09:07enforcement communities in ways that
09:09that fall short of say mandating
09:13backdoors in to encrypted technology oh
09:16yes I think we are in agreement about
09:17that for sure but the question and what
09:20a lot of this comes from though is it's
09:23not just you know the polishing the
09:25regulation but at the end of the day
09:27it's the jobs of the constituents you
09:28know Germany does this this
09:30apprenticeship kind of program where
09:32there is a middle class in Germany there
09:35are like incredible mechanics and
09:36carpenters etc you come from West
09:39Virginia you live in Baltimore I mean
09:40you've seen those regions in that city
09:43sort of just get you know pushed aside
09:45so how do you balance then regulation
09:48and policy and then how do you balance
09:49these industries of future of the future
09:52with the work of the future I'm so glad
09:55you asked that the reason I wrote this
09:57book the reason I wrote the industries
09:58of the future comes from the experience
10:01of having grown up in a poor rural part
10:04of the United States West Virginia and
10:06having been a teacher in a poor urban
10:08part of the United States in in West
10:10Baltimore and in this case part of what
10:14I was trying to do writing this book was
10:16lighting a path for people from
10:19low-income and working-class communities
10:22so that they could understand the forces
10:24that are shaping our future now we are a
10:27more purely capitalistic society in the
10:30United States than are then is Germany
10:33for example or then our Scandinavian
10:36countries which have you know
10:38substantially higher tax rates but also
10:41a very higher a much higher safety net
10:45and a much stronger safety net and so I
10:47do think it is reasonable for us in a
10:50world where we are where we are creating
10:53more bounty but also creating more
10:54spread more inequality and where the
10:57challenges are principally directed at
10:59the middle class and the working class I
11:01do think it's reasonable for us to look
11:03at what the policies are that impact the
11:06middle class in the working
11:08to make sure that they aren't hollowed
11:09out well where I would start from where
11:12I would start from is looking at what
11:14the industries of the future are
11:16identifying where the skills gaps are
11:19where the jobs are but where we can't
11:22hire enough employees to fill the
11:23existing jobs and then reorienting those
11:26educational programs that certain that
11:28tend to overwhelmingly serve the working
11:31class like community colleges and
11:33vocational education which is not sexy
11:36stuff to talk about that's not what the
11:38what people talk about at the cool kids
11:40table in Silicon Valley but the very
11:42practical matter is that things like
11:44vocational education and community
11:46colleges serve some of the most
11:48vulnerable parts of the working classes
11:52and the key now is to orient those
11:54programs in those educational systems to
11:57those jobs to those areas where there
11:59will be substantial job growth and
12:01wealth creation I have actually heard
12:03that argument made even here where you
12:05know that among all the educational
12:08paradigms the one to think about
12:10shifting towards is more skill based
12:12apprenticeship based vocational base as
12:14you're describing more specifically I
12:16like how does that ship happen what are
12:17some of the other things that need to
12:20happen underneath all of that I think
12:22this is a case where there's some heat
12:24the United States could learn something
12:26from what other countries do I mean we
12:28we tend to be very proud of ourselves
12:30and of our educational systems and most
12:32of the time that's that is justifiable
12:35but I do think that there are examples
12:38of other countries who are doing this
12:39better than we are and I think the part
12:41of what we have to do for example is
12:42look at the look at where the incentives
12:47vocational education and Community
12:50College is largely funded by very big
12:53block grants they come from federal and
12:55state governments what I would do is I
12:57would attach significant conditionality
13:00to the allocation of those block grants
13:03so that it pushes it pushes content it
13:08pushes training towards the industries
13:11of the future you know I take a view
13:14here that unless you change the
13:16incentives you won't change the behavior
13:18so just to be clear you don't get this
13:19grant unless this grant is going
13:21or the industries of the future okay
13:24exactly because the education systems
13:27are slower to change then you know
13:30federal governments and by industries of
13:33the future just for those who haven't
13:34read your book yet its robotic
13:36cybersecurity genomics big data just
13:39anything where digital technology
13:41honestly software eats the world
13:43basically is we would say it it's
13:44software it's the world but it's also a
13:46lot of it also I think is as you said
13:48it's rooted in the life sciences you
13:50know the world's last trillion-dollar
13:52industry was created of computer code I
13:54think the world's next trillion dollar
13:56industry is going to be created out of
13:58genetic code so we agree with that I
14:00think we would actually even put that
14:01number at three trillion if I remember
14:03the last estimate if I'm not mistaken
14:06yeah so I I think look there you you've
14:09had podcast in the past where you've
14:10talked about where significant growth
14:13will come from I address a lot of those
14:15in the industries of the future and end
14:17to your question Michael yes I would
14:19orient our the I would create
14:22conditionality on how our on how these
14:27block grants work so that it is oriented
14:29towards the industries of the future
14:30good could you have called this book
14:32nations of the future instead of
14:34industries of the future I mean is it
14:36those nations who kind of grab on to the
14:38industries of the future that have a
14:40future and how do how do you kind of
14:42view those two things side by side it's
14:44it's funny that you should ask that
14:46there's a there's a chapter in the book
14:48called the geography of future markets
14:50which basically does look at this sort
14:52of on the on that 196 country chessboard
14:57but one of the things that's interesting
14:58about this is so many countries it's
15:03hard to it's hard to think of a country
15:06oftentimes as just having one set of
15:09conditions it's like the United States
15:11is very boring and what is happening in
15:14Massachusetts or California or
15:17Washington State is very different than
15:20what's happening in Kansas Iowa and
15:22Nebraska in China with its 1.3 billion
15:25people you know what's happening in the
15:27coastal areas of southeast China is very
15:29different than what's happening in the
15:31interior India with its 1.2 billion
15:35the most heterogeneous country on planet
15:37earth and so a thesis of mine is that
15:40yes while national laws and while the
15:44while nation-states matter where these
15:48things tend to manifest themselves is in
15:50metro areas you know in sort of we're
15:53seeing that play out in China as well I
15:54think very interestingly is that the
15:56dynamics of what happens in tier 1
15:58cities is even very different than what
15:59happens in to your two cities that's
16:01exactly right and I think that we're
16:03moving toward a world where there are
16:05between between let's call it 10 to 15
16:08tier 1 cities alpha cities you know
16:11places you know you can think of sort of
16:13the San Francisco Bay Area as one of
16:16these you can think of New York City as
16:17one of these but I think that of the 10
16:19to 15 you know 80% of them are outside
16:24of the United States and you know below
16:27those I think are another 30 regions
16:29which aren't dominant in and of
16:32themselves but which are which can and
16:36will flourish which will contribute to a
16:39regional economy which will play some
16:41role in the supply chain for a global
16:42economy but I think the organizing unit
16:45for how all this actually plays out is
16:47on a metropolitan region a space
16:49National that's a very useful framework
16:52for thinking about it are their top tier
16:54cities that that you observed or that
16:56are sort of up and comers that we might
16:58not kind of recognize immediately like
17:00New York and the Bay Area and you know
17:02London for that matter or or just you
17:04rations then well you just look you just
17:07named five of them I think that they're
17:09I think that there are others that are
17:11in terrific positions going forward I
17:14think Berlin is a place where it's
17:18ecosystem is developing really quickly
17:20and it's gonna be and is going to
17:23produce some really powerful and
17:25important businesses in the future I
17:26think that Tel Aviv and Haifa especially
17:30if you look at what they're doing in
17:31cybersecurity I mean Tel Aviv and Haifa
17:34in Israel are continuing to produce
17:36spectacular technology but then I say
17:39what I see is a lot of cities competing
17:42to join that first here and they're
17:44doing some things right but they haven't
17:46gotten it all right yet and oftentimes
17:49governments really hold them back I'm
17:51thinking about Cape Town South Africa
17:52I'm thinking about South Paulo Brazil
17:55you know there are logic Rd Indonesia
17:58there are lots of places around the
18:00globe that don't have it quite right yet
18:04but are doing some very positive things
18:06and it's gonna be an interesting next 10
18:08years for them they could go in either
18:10direction yeah I would add Mexico City
18:12to that list but it's it's sort of hard
18:14to watch as they shoot themselves in the
18:16foot sometimes but actually given that
18:18like Michael the city's you guys just
18:20named what do you think of this theme
18:22that we've talked about before this
18:24notion of regulatory arbitrage where
18:25cities can do certain things to loosen
18:28their policies in order to foster that
18:30innovation hub in their community that
18:33while also and doing it in a way where
18:36other people have had those restrictions
18:38much tighter so that different cities
18:40could then compete for getting certain
18:41things first and then become a hub for
18:43something very specific like drones or
18:45personalized drugs or whatever the
18:48technology is I think they injecting
18:51competitive dynamics into you know in
18:55into regions where they can you know
18:58very seriously focus on one thing and
19:00layer incentives for the private sector
19:01to invest in builds and one area is is
19:05all for the good and I think that
19:06there's actually some fairly substantial
19:09precedent for this in different ways
19:10that we can see from throughout history
19:12from the beginning of industrialization
19:14even when done unintentionally we can
19:16see that in places where
19:18industrialization often times really
19:19quickly took root it was where there
19:22were a series of incentives put in place
19:23you know basically regulatory arbitrage
19:26to help unleash it but you know like
19:28we've seen over and over in history that
19:31contrived efforts as well and the flip
19:33side of this for creating innovation
19:36when government led you know top-down
19:37innovation efforts alone do not work in
19:39creating these thriving ecosystems and
19:42so given your travels across two times
19:44around the world and then once I trip to
19:45New Zealand what do you think happens to
19:48make one area more potentially
19:51successful I hate using this phrase but
19:53the next Silicon Valley of its own not
19:56actually like Silicon Valley versus not
19:58where I see it fail where you line up
20:02sentence where you've got the
20:03public-private partnerships where you've
20:05got everything just right but it doesn't
20:07end up working tends to be a failure of
20:10human capital you know you don't
20:12actually have the people and the
20:15entrepreneurs who can execute against
20:17the vision now that is it that's a
20:19really tough way of putting it but it's
20:22the God's honest truth
20:23and I felt talked about that in our
20:25podcast about innovation ecosystems as
20:27well he has this theme where it's human
20:29capital but connect interconnecting that
20:31capital as well like the communities
20:33that entrepreneurs form coming bottom-up
20:35as well so if this is this is absolutely
20:38true so let's let's contrast this with
20:41the Industrial Age so if you think about
20:43the Industrial Age you know every medium
20:46to big city around the world had in its
20:50big city it had between five and ten
20:52businessmen who really mattered you know
20:55and they owned the big Factory and they
20:58owned the big business and each city had
21:01you know it's sort of Country Club elite
21:04and there were a relatively small number
21:06of them and they were able to help lead
21:09a regional economy and lead a lot of
21:12people because they create created some
21:14Industrial Age product or service that's
21:16really not how things work today you
21:20know every city doesn't necessarily have
21:22a small number of elites that has a
21:26fairly significantly sized workforce
21:28what you see is that the network effects
21:32that are created and and the benefits to
21:34human capital of constant of a real
21:37clustering and so you know I even think
21:41about a city like Chicago Chicago has so
21:43much going for it but you when you
21:45really scratch the surface a little bit
21:48at least for internet-based businesses
21:51there isn't much there that's that's
21:55lasting that's created significant
21:57employment or other things and it's
21:58because at the end of the day you really
22:01didn't have the horsepower from the
22:04innovation sector that human capital
22:08lacks a human capital that could execute
22:10against the vision you you talk about
22:12the code war and I'm just thinking that
22:15companies that can exit are those
22:17companies and countries that can execute
22:19against the vision or those regions they
22:21often become targets for those those
22:23people and and organizations that can't
22:26and you know they want to sort of get
22:28what they can however they can what is
22:30this code war of which you write and how
22:32is that going to play out yes so the the
22:35industries of the future is a mostly is
22:37a fairly optimistic book it's not a
22:39utopian book it's not a bedwetting
22:42dystopian book I think it's I think it's
22:44sort of a a and I'm an idealistic
22:47realist but the darkest chapter of the
22:50book is about what I call the
22:51weaponization of code I just I spent too
22:53much time in the White House Situation
22:55Room being you know being close-up
22:58witness to what we averted I believe
23:01that the weaponization of code is the
23:03most significant development in conflict
23:05since the weaponization of fissile
23:07material the difference being that
23:10creating a nuclear weapon requires
23:12access to the scarcest of scarce
23:14scientific talent and transuranium
23:16elements whereas the development of very
23:19powerful malware is much more accessible
23:23and has a much lower barrier to entry
23:24and to your point when I was in
23:28government we Declassified a National
23:30Intelligence Estimate which we tend not
23:32to do well we Declassified a National
23:34Intelligence Estimate that actually put
23:36a number on the amount of intellectual
23:38property theft taking place because of
23:42cyberattacks from China at north of 300
23:46billion dollars a year so yeah so there
23:50is there is grand consequence in my
23:53opinion to this cyber domain becoming an
23:58increasingly bellicose weaponized space
24:02right it's not just an economic cost
24:04it's a safety cost you know there's cost
24:07to trust and security IP regulations
24:09everything that comes out of it thriving
24:11business is a good environment for
24:12creating businesses but what you're
24:15really describing and because we often
24:16have a tendency to describe the impact
24:18of weapon is they the precursor of
24:20weaponization of code is that code
24:22touches everything and so this attack
24:25surface has increased considerably but
24:29what you're really saying is the
24:30asymmetric aspect of that type of
24:32warfare is unprecedented in in our
24:35history there's just no other comparison
24:37well a symmetric but also it's kind of
24:40democratic right like I can launch an
24:42attack from anywhere
24:43right so right that's actually kind of
24:46the flip side of the coin so here's
24:48what's interesting about this when you
24:50you can't reshoot that same bullet if
24:53you pull the pin out of a grenade and
24:55throw the grenade it blows up you can't
24:58reconstitute it and use it again but
25:00with malware once malware has been
25:03unleashed it can be repurposed and
25:06redirected and so malware which could be
25:09developed by a very powerful
25:11nation-state I've seen evidence that the
25:16malware that the United States is
25:18alleged to have used against Iran it
25:24looks like if you look at the codebase
25:25it looks like much of that code was used
25:30by the Iranians against the Saudis in
25:33attack in an attack against Saudi Aramco
25:36which ended up destroying 30,000
25:38computers oh wow so we're talking
25:40Stuxnet now we're talking about we're
25:43talking about Stuxnet
25:44yeah and so the thing is that once you
25:46release this code out there it can be
25:50repurposed by people who have far fewer
25:52capabilities than the people who created
25:56it it's only a derivative and mash up
25:59potential that's also unprecedented to
26:00your point with something like code I
26:02mean I don't think it's that different
26:03analogously to what might have happened
26:05would say putting out blueprints for
26:07certain weapons or designs in the past
26:08and building on that intellectual
26:10property but what you're describing is
26:12that this thing is this dynamic lively
26:13thing that can be reshaped in real-time
26:15and constantly mixed and put out and
26:17it's easier to smuggle instead of
26:19smuggling blueprints you know in your I
26:21don't know what in the false bottom of
26:23your briefcase and the difference here
26:26being that you can have a blueprint for
26:28a nuclear bomb but if you don't have
26:30nuclear material it doesn't matter the
26:33difference is that with this do you
26:35materialize in a not good way it's
26:37exactly we're just talking about zeros
26:38and ones here we're not talking about
26:40transuranium elements
26:42side of it to Michael's point is the
26:44Democratic democratization of this and
26:47there is a positive aspect of you know
26:50what you're describing across 196
26:52country chessboard where there's
26:55innovation now coming out of places
26:56where it may not have come previously no
26:59there's no question and you know a big
27:01portion of the industries of the future
27:02is focused on improbable innovation so I
27:07write a lot about things that have come
27:09out of sub-saharan Africa which you know
27:12when I came out of college 20 years ago
27:14sub-saharan Africa was thought of as a
27:16place of conflict and Development
27:19Assistance and now you know sub-saharan
27:23Africa not all of it you know
27:25sub-saharan Africa is not one place it
27:27is dozens of different countries but to
27:30make a sweeping statement about it a lot
27:33of that continent has gone from being
27:36economically isolated to being
27:39increasingly to being an increasingly
27:41connected part of the global economy and
27:44because its citizens have benefited from
27:47connectivity now for more and more years
27:50there's some really cool stuff coming
27:53out of there that I think is gonna help
27:54transform that continent Alec our you
27:57know the people our people are the
27:59people who who make this technology who
28:01are writing this code who are sort of
28:02thinking about the industries of the
28:04future and helping to create them what
28:07do you want them to think about you know
28:09let me take this back in the direction
28:11of geography for a moment in the same
28:14way in which anybody who began really
28:17investing in China 10 or 15 years ago
28:20and who figured out China to the maximum
28:23extent that it could be that it can be
28:24figured out and who sort of stuck stuck
28:28with it over the course of 10-15 years
28:30has done very well so to do I believe
28:33that there is gonna be enough growth
28:36globally that today a lot of today's
28:38frontier markets are gonna be tomorrow's
28:41developing economies and a lot of
28:42today's developing economies are going
28:44to be tomorrow's developed economies so
28:47a lot of the advice that I give to the
28:49entrepreneurs to the builders to the
28:51people who are imagining that the things
28:54that they're creating being
28:56relevant around the globe as part of
28:58what I'm saying is get outside of your
29:00geographic comfort zone and think about
29:02how you might be able to bring it to
29:04places that you wouldn't that you would
29:07not have thought of intuitively in the
29:09same way in which 10 12 15 years ago
29:11China was sort of a scary place with you
29:14know opaque regulations and questionable
29:16growth patterns so a lot of what I'm
29:19pushing people to do is be more
29:21expeditionary and they're thinking about
29:24where they can build their products
29:26where they can sell their products where
29:28they can create you know Geographic
29:31where they can create some geographic
29:33basis bases of operation I just I feel
29:35that good about what is happening in a
29:38lot of frontier markets right now I
29:40would probably add to that Alec that we
29:43also do that expeditionary exploration
29:46and thinking in a way that isn't just
29:48treating these places as objects and
29:50target markets but that really goes from
29:52the bottom up to truly in-depth
29:54understanding the history the culture
29:56the context everything that comes down
29:59to it because it would be the opposite
30:00otherwise sort of like the dr.
30:02Livingstone I presume model yeah when
30:04you do that when you do what you
30:05describe sonal then you end up getting
30:08the best out of the markets instead of
30:10just being sort of the Silicon Valley
30:12dude you know getting on an airplane and
30:15showing up someplace to talk to export
30:17his Silicon Valley model when you can
30:20really when you remember you only have
30:22one mouth but you have two ears and if
30:26you're willing to go to places and learn
30:29understand what the interests and
30:31aptitudes are there figure out how you
30:34can really become a part of a community
30:36rather than just capturing a community
30:38then you know it can be great it can be
30:41great for your company and it'll make
30:44you a better entrepreneur so Alec if if
30:47I'm a parent what do I want my kids to
30:50what can I do to help them in this
30:53future that you describe in your book
30:54well I think that the first day the most
30:57important thing is interdisciplinary
30:58learning you know I think that people
31:01who think of learning as as something
31:04that should only be rooted in STEM
31:07science technology engineering and
31:09oh well my son or daughter doesn't
31:11really like that stuff she's an artist
31:13so they only focus on the arts I think
31:16that the people who are gonna be best
31:18equipped to compete and succeed in in
31:20the industries of the future are those
31:22who believe lend that which is technical
31:27and scientific with the humanities and
31:29you know I even see it now so let's look
31:31at Facebook for example everybody thinks
31:33of Mark Zuckerberg and justifiably so is
31:36have as having been a great computer
31:38science student at Harvard but what
31:40people fail to recognize a lot of the
31:42time I think is that Facebook is has
31:44been as successful as it is as much
31:47because Mark and the people who he
31:50brought into Facebook understood
31:51behavioral psychology as much as they
31:55did computer science similarly with
31:58Google you know part of why I think Eric
32:01Schmidt was as effective a CEO of Google
32:05for as long as he was is yes he had a
32:08technical background he had a PhD in
32:10computer science but then in the second
32:13half of his professional life he
32:15immersed himself he got the equivalent
32:18of a PhD in international relations and
32:20so part of why Google was as effective
32:23as it was for as long as it was was
32:26because he even though he had a
32:27technical background really brought a
32:30keen understanding of international
32:32relations to it and so look I'm using
32:35mark and Eric as sort of sweeping
32:37generalizations but in general I think
32:39that that the people who are able to
32:42combine a strengths in the humanities
32:45with a strengths that's either
32:47scientific or technological is going to
32:49be especially well prepared for tomorrow
32:51Alec thank you so much
