00:00hi and welcome to the a 16z podcast i'm
00:03caroline horn and in this episode we
00:05talked about how founders hire a VP of
00:07Product Management a lot of founders
00:09tell us that this can be the most
00:11emotional role to hire I often say it's
00:14like letting someone hold your baby for
00:15the first time so in this conversation
00:17based on an event held last year we
00:20talked about the challenges of what to
00:21consider and the process of hiring a VP
00:24of Product Management the conversation
00:26moderated by a 16z General Partner
00:28Martine casado included in the order in
00:31which he'll hear their voices
00:32Vijay balasubrahmanyam founder CEO of
00:36pin drop allen Schaaf founder and CEO of
00:39imager Gokul Raja Ram product
00:42engineering lead at square and Shishir
00:44Mehrotra founder and CEO at Kota
00:47I thought maybe well we'll start with
00:49the jugular your high-level philosophies
00:51about product management one of the
00:52people that I talked to when I was
00:54hiring my first VP of product was the VP
00:57of products at LinkedIn deepness shot
00:59and he said a good VP of Product is
01:02someone who has the brain of an engineer
01:03the heart of a designer and the tongue
01:05of a diplomat and I think that's you
01:07know a pretty well put things and if you
01:11actually deconstruct it it's actually
01:12very very true right you have so many
01:15different stakeholders you need to
01:17corral them all but more importantly you
01:19need to get done right I'll add to
01:21that great VP's of product also build
01:23great teams right so hiring is the other
01:26part of it but ultimately you know in
01:28terms of scope I almost view product as
01:31a support role to all of these functions
01:33right sales marketing customer success
01:36your actual customers engineering and so
01:39it's a really really important role
01:41there's different types of users
01:43there's the marketing team there's the
01:47engineering team and basically every
01:50team in the company is going to want to
01:52have a stake in what gets built you also
01:55have to be really analytical because
01:56data is like another stakeholder and you
01:59have to really look at the metrics to
02:01kind of turn sort of negative retention
02:03actions into like positive ones
02:06I actually feel there's a lot of
02:07confusion on the scope of p.m. so I'd
02:10love to hear it but you can also kind of
02:13draw scope I think that would be super
02:14useful the product strategy for a
02:17company is driven by the product leader
02:21turns out that many cases founders are
02:23CEOs they've never actually articulated
02:26a clear product strategy I think that's
02:29one of the most important things
02:30formally articulating the product
02:32charging and the second pieces shaping
02:35or sculpting the product organization a
02:37lot of drug development teams are
02:38organized organically based on engineers
02:40based on skill sets based on iOS versus
02:42Android versus whatever it is kill sets
02:44and so on the right product leader comes
02:46in and takes a completely different
02:47product centric view and organizes the
02:50team differently this is a technique I
02:53got taught by one my favorite bosses
02:55over a decade ago and then we kind of
02:57adopted in it to Google and basically
03:00the way this works is you say new p.m.
03:02comes into a company comes into a group
03:04and you hand them a problem you hand
03:06them a solution they'll talk to this
03:08person run this meeting so on and their
03:09job is to execute and at some point
03:11their job becomes to figure out the hell
03:13and they go figure out which meetings to
03:14set up and how to organize a team with
03:16the cadence should be all those sets of
03:18things and early on in people's careers
03:20they tend to grow by growing scope like
03:21they get bigger and bigger features you
03:23can manage like a feature being built by
03:25one engineer and now five engineers like
03:26you kind of grow that way and the way
03:28you do the job changes they actually
03:30have generally the same scope but they
03:32just do the job differently I call these
03:34de clarity creators like the number one
03:35job of that person is to take ambiguous
03:37spaces and turn them clear and I that
03:39could be organization that could be
03:40product it could be strategy but the way
03:42they do the job impacts it a lot more
03:43than the this code so the question is
03:45when do you know you need p.m. and then
03:47you need to know a VP of PM in general
03:50you have two stages pre PMF a product
03:52market fit at which point you don't hire
03:54any leaders it's just you your
03:56co-founder and then a bunch of builders
03:58and so you build for a while and the
04:00next evolution is where the number of
04:02engineers grows big enough that it's
04:04hard enough to essentially be the
04:06product manager so you hire ideally get
04:09one of the designers or engineers to
04:10become a product manager can have some
04:12strong philosophies around whether you
04:13hire your first PM from the outside or
04:15whether you make one of your designers
04:17or engineers into p.m. as your first
04:19product manager the company what is just
04:20trying opinion on that about 23 to 30
04:22engineers is when you see the first
04:23evolution of leadership in the
04:25function because a there's enough
04:27engineers that there is many different
04:28things you could organize them in many
04:30different ways so there's need for more
04:31explicit strategy formulation and
04:33finally there's a team of people who
04:35needs a leader where the CEOs are one of
04:37the co-founders then one of the
04:38co-founders could become the head of
04:39product but then I think the question is
04:42are they the final head of product or
04:44leader of product many multi product
04:47companies have gone to the product unit
04:49model where there are people leading
04:52product engineering and design Facebook
04:54Google Square a bunch of companies have
04:56gone to this model because in my opinion
04:58it doesn't make sense to have a person
05:01who's literally managing three different
05:04product units that that don't really
05:05have cohesion what are you holding
05:07accountable for at that point being a
05:09good manager not really you want your
05:11most senior executives to be held
05:13accountable for direct results driving a
05:15specific outcome around product so I
05:18think there is a very strong push again
05:20in having product unit leads because
05:22when you have a VP of Product or head of
05:24product who has three product directors
05:25a CEO quickly finds themselves going
05:27directly to the product directors so I
05:29think that it's also important to note
05:30that there's no right way to do this
05:32stuff and I can tell you that with
05:35confidence especially considering that I
05:37did the opposite of your strong views
05:41we had been chugging away out the
05:44product for like five years
05:45and so we had a lot of built up
05:47assumptions we were kind of a little bit
05:50dogmatic about certain topics that we
05:51didn't need to be that were probably
05:52holding us back and so having a fresh
05:55set of eyes it's somebody that actually
05:57does also know product management for
06:00the first time did really help the
06:03downside of course is you have somebody
06:05that doesn't know your product as well
06:08as other people that have been there for
06:10a while sort of making the decisions on
06:12what to build for me I found it very
06:15difficult to hire any position that I
06:17hadn't actually done the job I just felt
06:19like I found like really good at like
06:20hiring things that I could done and I
06:22found it very difficult for hiring that
06:23I haven't so especially for those that
06:26are not PMS or have not done p.m. that
06:28are thinking of hiring what is your
06:30mental framework for hiring uh I think
06:32one of the most important things is that
06:34for any role you hire companies make the
06:35mistake of not listing on paper the eggs
06:38top four or five criteria there are
06:40local water skills and then looking both
06:43inside and outside the company to figure
06:45out who the best interviewer is for
06:46example people leadership and team
06:48leadership is a really important part of
06:50this role when you hire people leave and
06:51you might not have it a 30-person
06:54startup you might not have anyone who's
06:55essentially really good at judging
06:57whether someone is a good leader of
06:58people or not so I would really
07:00encourage you to look at your board many
07:02of your board members are investors or
07:03advisers in this case the first thing
07:06that matters is customer focus and
07:08empathy and again not just your own
07:10customer but really trying to dive deep
07:12into how to think about customers what
07:14kind of unique in says they've had in
07:15the past word customers when you give
07:18them a product area can they actually
07:20articulate a winning product strategy
07:23that is rooted in amazing customer
07:24insights the third one is people and
07:26team leadership and the fourth one is
07:28how to analyze data so one of the things
07:31again as part of onboarding every
07:33document is really getting an account
07:35with basically your into your SQL
07:37database essentially getting an analyst
07:39account and starting to run your own
07:40queries because turns out at younger
07:43companies there's no analyst role or
07:45there's an analyst but they're all read
07:46with a lot of - bodie stuff so you need
07:48to as a product leader come with your
07:50own insights so one of the best things
07:52as part of your state of the union you
07:54present hopefully at the end of 30 days
07:55is also a completely new look at the
07:58data that the company has that you have
08:0130 days to analyze and understand what
08:03this data says about customers about
08:06usage about for every single thing about
08:07the product every single person in the
08:10company needs to be an analyst for a
08:12company to work effectively this
08:13includes every single leader of the
08:14company any good product person if they
08:17can't wow you while they're sitting in
08:18front of you then that's way below the
08:20when someone's at this level and I call
08:22someone on the team look for the top
08:23level as an example I call someone on
08:25that person's team I don't tell them who
08:27I'm reference checking and I say tell me
08:29who owned the vision for this thing tell
08:32me when there was a real hard decision
08:34to make where do you go when you had to
08:35frame how the opportunity was created
08:37where did you go if you want to figure
08:39out the how piece you say you know did
08:41things run smoothly or poorly and who
08:42was it most due to and so that process
08:45of finding information from the network
08:47of people is an art in itself and I
08:49personally believe you have to do it
08:51so lesson number one I think is being
08:53very very good at reference checking and
08:55having a framework in wine the second
08:56thing I'd say is you have to find a way
08:58to simulate work with the person and
09:00there's lots of different thinking on
09:02this one thing we do actually this is
09:04not just for Prada we do it for every
09:05function at the beginning of every
09:07interview loop the person presents for
09:09about 30 to 45 minutes and it's actually
09:11open to the company and the rules that
09:13presentation are pretty broad like we
09:15tell people you have 30 to 45 minutes
09:17make sure you cover your whole
09:19background so it doesn't come up again
09:20in every interview tell us something
09:22interesting like keep our attention and
09:23give us the best of yourself any product
09:25person who can't figure out how to
09:27entertain you for 30 to 45 minutes it's
09:29definitely not worthwhile as a product
09:31person and the third part of that and
09:33this is somewhat controversial I think
09:35it's very easy in interviews to do I the
09:37home-court or awake or questions hey I'm
09:38trying to figure out how to bring this
09:39product to market what do you think or
09:41you do awake or questions you say hey
09:42I'm really interested in how you did
09:43like I see that YouTube did this thing
09:46why'd you guys do it this way why'd you
09:48do it that way and and my view it both
09:49are terrible the home-court question
09:51you're spending your whole time trying
09:52to figure out well what does he want to
09:53hear you've probably thought about this
09:55way more than I have and so you're not
09:56really getting a great calibration and
09:58the other side you can't separate this
09:59person from the rest of the whole
10:01company that was around them doing this
10:03thing so I think it's really important
10:04to ask neutral ground questions and I do
10:07this for every role come up with a bunch
10:09of synthetic questions we're gonna build
10:10a hypothetical product together and and
10:12they can be super broad like one of our
10:13favorite ones is you've been tasked to
10:15build a tool in the grocery space and
10:18your job is to farm these small grocery
10:22outlets with ways to increase customer
10:23loyalty product can be anything and
10:25we've had people build all sorts of
10:27different things and I think you'll find
10:28when you get neutral ground you can
10:31isolate what that person isn't uniquely
10:33good at which i think is really
10:34important I actually find it really
10:36useful to ask the product person the
10:39home-court question but the way we kind
10:42of change it around is we actually do it
10:45more offline right we spend a lot of
10:47time with them in phone conversations
10:49letting them do their research and at
10:51some point through the process we
10:53actually give it to them as a homework
10:54assignment and the really good product
10:56leads actually you know we tell them hey
10:58if you thought of what pin-drop needs to
11:01do you know as horizon one horizon to
11:04build out that product vision and tell
11:06me what it is and we ask them to write
11:08it and send it to us and it's a big
11:10advantage because two things happen one
11:12you start understanding you know the
11:15company space and you start fascinating
11:18about what it is to work there so you
11:20really give it your best shot and the
11:22best product leads we've had have built
11:25some of the best you know vision
11:27documents for the product and it shows
11:30two things right one is when they write
11:32something there's amazing you can see
11:33the clarity in thought and then the
11:35second thing is when you tell them you
11:37want to see what's horizon one horizon
11:39to great product leads are phenomenal at
11:43prioritizing things right there was one
11:45product manager that I worked with and
11:47he used to make lists of everything and
11:50he would prioritize even his kids if his
11:52wife allowed him right and so you know
11:54it's one of those things where people
11:56who can put that down with that clarity
11:59of thought and give their first shot at
12:02a prioritization it's a wonderful
12:04quality to have and that's the way we
12:06hire product market fit is it's kind of
12:08everything if you have it if and if you
12:10don't have it it's kind of hard to make
12:11it work type thing I mean it really is
12:13and like the PM sits right in the
12:15central nervous system of product market
12:17fit and like everybody in the company
12:19everybody has a vested interest in the
12:21product market fit and everybody has an
12:22aesthetic around it and everybody has a
12:24design around it and so like onboarding
12:25at pm the wrong way if it's coming
12:27externally is a very tricky thing to do
12:30and can be very disruptive
12:31so I mean Gokul I I mean I know you
12:33talked about bringing it internally but
12:34you can't always bring it internally or
12:35maybe that's the reason you want to do
12:37it internally but I'd love for you to
12:38talk about like how do you actually
12:39introduce somebody into something that
12:41is so sensitive so there are three
12:43phases to onboarding when you're on
12:45board a product leader actually any lead
12:46first before they join the company it's
12:49really important that you give them time
12:50to meet with their team before they
12:52start the company I on board this Red
12:54Square where you essentially send a
12:57survey or some way to collect questions
12:59from from the team or at least the
13:01direct reports of the person before they
13:02start because everyone when they hear
13:04there's a new person starting that they
13:06might not have met during the process
13:07has a bunch of questions about what does
13:09this mean for me what is their style
13:10like what do they expect and so we
13:13essentially collect a huge set of
13:14questions and then literally the you sit
13:17before you start at the company maybe
13:19and gather all of them in a round table
13:21setting and you just literally walk
13:23through and honestly just in a small
13:25setting just answer these questions
13:27especially we make it anonymous a lot of
13:29the attention is out of the room and
13:30then you also build personal connections
13:32of the people before you start so I
13:33think pre starting it's really important
13:35to build a rapport with the team once
13:37you start again this is a classic 3060
13:40day thing the first 30 days are all
13:41about diagnosis to diagnose the company
13:44the organization the strategy the people
13:46and so you essentially have a set of
13:48standard questions you literally have
13:50four questions that you ask every single
13:52person 30 minutes you actually send the
13:54questions in advance 30 minutes
13:56don't interrupt don't say anything just
13:58listen take notes and then synthesize at
14:01the end of 15 or 30 days synthesize and
14:03then ideally present a State of the
14:05Union back to the organization I think
14:07that excess alone in the first areas
14:09will get is so much credibility and will
14:12be so valuable because no one I
14:13guarantee you has ever sat down with
14:15these people and has asked them what's
14:17working well what's not working well
14:19what your different last shoes how what
14:20you reroute you're not doing essentially
14:22these four questions synthesize and then
14:24publish it back to the company here's
14:26what I'm hearing very simple first 30
14:28days next 30 days is where you actually
14:30take the things you're hearing and put
14:34two things one most importantly work
14:37changes you have 60 days to make or
14:40changes after 60 days you become an
14:42insider it's very hard to make our
14:43changes so the first 30 days you also
14:46diagnose not just a company but the
14:48people so based on the insights based on
14:50what you're hearing based on people who
14:51are actually giving you the most
14:53insights there are a lot of good people
14:54who are buried deep in the Argonaut in
14:56are not an optimal roles again people
14:58who are maybe in roles where they should
14:59not be you need to identify that's part
15:02of your job in the first 30 days and you
15:03need to make those changes in the next
15:0530 days you have to if you don't you're
15:07toast so that's first change the Ark and
15:09the second one is do something impactful
15:12whether you are becoming as the senior
15:14most leaders managing a three-level Ark
15:15or as someone who's just managing well
15:17now you need to do something yourself
15:18you need to drive something a product on
15:21in this case you need to drive a product
15:23change why because you need to have your
15:25team the company you see your see you in
15:27action you need to show that you can
15:31actually drive something this your
15:33decision-making style this your
15:34philosophy they see all of that in
15:36action so in 60 days those are the two
15:38things you need to accomplish you sculpt
15:39the arc you make the arc changes exit
15:42people and then you need to drive one
15:44change that people remember your first
15:46six years are what people remember
15:47always so make an impact diagnose one
15:51then all change and then one ideally
15:54significant product thing if you do
15:55don't stay in there for 60 days you have
15:57enough organization credibility at that
15:59point you basically do well one
16:01important thing to add to that I can't
16:03tell you how many executives working for
16:05me advising so on nobody does it when
16:07you show up in the organization you have
16:09to tell your team that for eight weeks
16:11I'm gonna do what the old administration
16:12did you have to do something meaningful
16:14did you through 60 days you have invent
16:16something meaningful I think it's very
16:17important actually that's a small thing
16:19don't take the biggest thing like do
16:20something impactful it doesn't have to
16:22be the biggest problem don't show up and
16:24in week to say oh my god it's like I've
16:26been all built up and I just have to do
16:29and so I published this paper about how
16:30everything's screwed up and I haven't
16:31gone to the listening tour for the CEOs
16:33give the persons from space and we hired
16:35this person because we're there's some
16:37problem like there's something going on
16:38that person showed up it's been three
16:40weeks and haven't solved the problem
16:41yeah like that that's crazy
16:42and you have to let that because if that
16:44person's credibility gets ruined not
16:46only gonna wreck you probably hired that
16:48person thinking is a huge problem your
16:49organization maybe they don't think
16:50that's such a problem maybe they've had
16:52something else they're worried about
16:52this person is going to assess that
16:54they're gonna they're gonna come back
16:55and tell you what these problems are I
16:56had to get rid of a guy that was a
16:58fantastic hire and he got on boarded
17:01poorly and he flushed out in six months
17:03cuz he just lost his report by not
17:04following that process and so I think
17:06that I could not emphasize enough how
17:08important that I don't see us take six
17:10months to become productive please give
17:12you a product leave a little bit of
17:13action on the back right so Alan you as
17:17a founder are replacing part of the
17:18brain how do you do that with like the
17:20minimum amount of damage and so like the
17:21antibodies don't like kick it out like
17:23how did you view about bringing in
17:24external people and the PM and or or if
17:28you got it wrong how would you change it
17:30to get it right yeah so we operated but
17:34when I brought our VP of Product on we
17:37had I think it was at the time three PMS
17:41and I was the acting VP of product and
17:44so there was little that the new guy
17:49could come in and do worse than what I
17:51was doing because I had it I had a lot
17:56of other stuff going on and all three of
17:58these guys reported to me and it like
18:02bait which basically meant they had like
18:03no manager I just add one bit to the
18:06diagnosis which is in the 30 days in
18:09order to actually diagnose your guy just
18:11totally needs to be an information
18:13sponge and learn everything about the
18:16product he needs to be like out on the
18:17street talking with users he needs to be
18:20looking at all the bugs that come in are
18:22the guy that we hired went through the
18:24our internal wiki so deep that he read
18:28the profile of one of our office dogs
18:30and so we also have this form that like
18:33a lot of our really heavy power users
18:35joints that it's call most like a little
18:38mini community within the the broader
18:39community and they talk a lot about
18:41product features and they talk a lot
18:44about user suggestions they talk about
18:45bugs and so I actually wrote up his
18:49first kind of couple of action items and
18:51one of them was to engage with the
18:54people inside that can meet me too so
18:56that he could learn how users actually
18:58interact with each other and how he can
18:59interact with users it's not such a
19:01scary thing he came back with these are
19:04all the things that are essentially
19:06turning our users off and these were all
19:08the things that are keeping them coming
19:10back and like we gotta fix the things
19:12that are turn them off and then that was
19:14the first couple of things that he
19:16prioritized then in the next quarter now
19:20we're gonna open it up to Q&A we talked
19:22a lot about the VP of Product role
19:24itself and sort of how that's emotional
19:26but how does this affect the role of the
19:29person who has up until this point been
19:31growing the company and owning that
19:32vision because their role fundamentally
19:34changes when that VP of Product comes in
19:37and whether that becomes uncomfortable
19:38later how do you position yourself
19:40appropriately to make sure that you can
19:42work well with that VP of Product and
19:44that your role can then continue to grow
19:46and mature it was really important to me
19:49to have the VP of Product be my partner
19:52at the time we could have made this
19:55to get like a really visionary product
19:58lead that has the great ideas about
20:01where to take the product but maybe he
20:03can't execute on those things and then
20:06on the other side you can just have a
20:07pure executor and you tell them what to
20:10do and he you know does it better than
20:11anybody but I wanted some you know
20:13somebody in between something that I
20:15could really partner with in order to
20:17decide where to take the product vision
20:20and I don't want to be the guy that it's
20:22on the receiving end of somebody that's
20:24just imaginary and all this great stuff
20:25like it was really important for it to
20:28be a partnership but you're absolutely
20:30right in that the role does change it
20:32changed a lot for me but it changed so
20:35much for the better because I'm now no
20:37longer so deep into the weeds of like
20:40literally assigning bugs to people and
20:42writing up product requirement documents
20:45and sitting down with the engineers for
20:48like hours a day and so as soon as we
20:50had our guy join I immediately I step
20:54back from all the weeds and now I get to
20:56partner with him on where to take this
20:57thing and that's really what I want to
21:00do not like dish out every bug and like
21:03make every product decision it's
21:06actually pretty wonderful when you're
21:07hired of create product leader because
21:09when you are driving that product vision
21:13you're so close to it and sometimes just
21:15the fact that you can step back and let
21:18this person quarter back sales marketing
21:21customers customer success engineering
21:24and handle all of those requirements
21:26determine what's the right way determine
21:28whether we need to build it whether we
21:30you can go get it once you know you as
21:33the CEO or the CTO get to take away all
21:36of that responsibility and have someone
21:38do it in an extremely methodical fashion
21:40try to listen and then you know attack
21:43these problems it's very liberating you
21:46get to actually step back and you get to
21:49plan much longer time horizons so when
21:52you really early as a start-up you have
21:55very short time horizons when you need
21:57to plan right you can figure out
21:59something and then go get it done and a
22:01great product leader allows you to start
22:03planning for those longer time horizons
22:05while he takes care of a lot of
22:08details in the strategy we've talked a
22:11lot about kind of the onboarding and
22:13kind of making the most of the first 60
22:14days I was wondering for maybe we can
22:16talk a little bit about hiring and talk
22:18more about the crazy hyper growth I most
22:20get thousands of people reaching out for
22:21a role like this how do you weed through
22:23that and kind of maybe talk through more
22:25about you know what are you looking for
22:27between the stages of that initial phone
22:29interviewed at the end of the final hire
22:31I have two pieces of advice on that
22:34topic the first one is the mock
22:38framework and it stands for mission
22:40objectives and competencies what it
22:42forces you to do is exactly what you're
22:45saying write it down on paper what
22:46you're looking for you can't recalibrate
22:49during the middle of a search but you
22:51also kind of asked during the period of
22:54hyper growth if you have a bunch of
22:55people reaching out how do you kind of
22:57deal with that which is my second piece
23:00of advice is what stage is your is your
23:03company at I wish somebody would have
23:06told me this which is when you hire when
23:08you raise a round and what you're gonna
23:11do with that round is grow your team and
23:14the first thing you should do is hire
23:16somebody to hire people like literally
23:18you raise a bunch of money in order to
23:20build your team you have to hire
23:22somebody to hire people immediately
23:24because that like you cannot hire every
23:26individual person that might be what is
23:29the super part they have there are many
23:31superb are many different kinds of
23:32supervisors a lot of people have you
23:33need to figure out what is it ever
23:34supervised you need so many product and
23:36then you want to take that your person
23:37who's doing your hiring for you you hand
23:38them that rubric and say I want them
23:40ranked on this like I want a UI centered
23:42product person who's gonna nitpick every
23:44pixel on the product we need to know
23:46that and don't bring that later as
23:48opposed to the data center product
23:50person who's a total quant
23:52you know you can pick each of the
23:53different types and you could you could
23:54find so everyone has a superpower but in
23:57startups you usually need a unicorn
23:59right so they can do like four or five
24:01things like on the design side you want
24:03you want someone who does visual you
24:05want some of those you I maybe even
24:07product you can't find everything in one
24:09person what are you doing to train
24:12people to go beyond their superpower
24:14like if you have a designer engineer be
24:16the product person what do you do to
24:17give them the product strategy or
24:19customer centricity or data skills
24:2270% of learning you get is by doing the
24:24job 10% of your learning comes from
24:26reading and like seeing stuff 20% comes
24:29from mentors who you watch in action and
24:3070% comes from actually doing the job we
24:33actually have a formal process now where
24:35we have people from other functions
24:37adjacent functions wanting to transfer
24:38into product management we essentially
24:40have a six-month externship or
24:41internship where they slowly take on
24:44projects starting with smaller scope
24:46projects and and ultimately you want
24:48them to actually take a problem
24:50formulation and figure out how to
24:51execute on something and so you just
24:53give them projects of bigger and bigger
24:54scope and that's how you that's how you
24:56learn the products on a company the VP
24:59of Product and the CEO like no matter
25:00how they got formed their co-founders
25:02when you pick your co-founder for your
25:03company my guess is that you didn't pick
25:06like well I can do this 20 tasks we need
25:08to get done and I'm really good at these
25:0910 I need to find something is really
25:10good at these 10 like between the two of
25:12you first off there's some point of
25:13intersection as all sorts of stuff that
25:15neither of you knew how to do and we're
25:17gonna go figure it out together that
25:20interview as just an interview I spent
25:22essentially five hours before I even
25:24agreed to interview at square with our
25:26CEO just getting to know him and
25:28understanding what his vision is for the
25:30company what he cares about what he
25:32doesn't what his philosophy is how he
25:33works because you can interview all you
25:35want but this is such an important
25:37critical role that you've got to spend
25:38time with them I'd love to hear about
25:41the emotional aspects of letting go a
25:44little bit what have you done to make it
25:46easier to let go some of the things to
25:50this new person that doesn't even code
25:55what what what advice do you give to the
25:59newbie that comes in to make it easier
26:02for you in both ways for this emotional
26:05period to be smooth and lovely like a
26:08honeymoon one layer I think is you have
26:10to find a way to like have this proper
26:14casual relationship with a person that I
26:15think is like and it could be as simple
26:18as we're gonna take a daily walk it can
26:20be like we're gonna have a regular
26:21dinner it really matters whether you
26:23treat people the same way and whether
26:25you like look at the world the same way
26:26or you're gonna be handed questions you
26:28know if your ethics are the same turns
26:30out to be a really important one like if
26:31you're gonna be your ethics gonna be
26:33tested all the time and if you don't
26:34think about it the same way
26:35then like you're gonna find lots of
26:37conflicts I think that like that level
26:39of trust and building that only happens
26:42with time I don't think anybody would
26:43get married after like an interview
26:45process for their spouse do you just
26:46have to spend time together for the
26:48other end of the spectrum I think is
26:49like figuring out how you make decisions
26:50together and in a lot of cases that can
26:53be collaborative and easy and so on
26:55there is a hierarchy here right like
26:57that had a product needs to empower
26:58their boss to like help them in their
27:01process and that person needs to trust
27:03that they're not going to be left out of
27:04every decision so I think the commitment
27:06one commitment is look I will bring you
27:08options like when we have hard decisions
27:10I'll bring them to you you can guarantee
27:12any hard decision gonna make I'm gonna
27:13bring you that list of options I need to
27:15come in from you that if you think the
27:18list isn't right you tell me the list
27:19isn't right don't like just go add
27:21something it's like just a way of
27:22talking to each other of like you trust
27:24that this person is sizing up the world
27:26for you and bringing you problems and
27:28solutions and that person is a trust
27:29that you will abstract out give
27:32perspective that they may not have had
27:33and help them make decisions and help
27:35them evangelize decisions but you have
27:37to form that trust at some point I
27:40realized that as CEO and Founder it is
27:44my job to scale myself and by not
27:46scaling myself I'm not doing my job and
27:49I have to somehow separate that
27:52emotional piece and I have to let go of
27:55some of these things if you're a founder
27:56you're in similar shoes you want to do
27:58your job do you want to do it well well
28:00heads up your job is to scale yourself
28:02all right quickly talk about the failure
28:05modes like what can you get wrong with
28:07bringing in a VP of PM I think the
28:09biggest one is not onboarding them
28:11properly not coaching them how to be on
28:13board properly and not pushing them to
28:15make our changes sooner than later you
28:17bring on someone you've got to tell them
28:19hey diagnose New York 60 days don't over
28:22like push them to deliver stuff earlier
28:24so in my case it's looking for
28:27commitment because if you think about it
28:29a product lead is almost doing the job
28:31of you know most CEOs is handing that
28:33over so so a product lead needs to be
28:36manniac all about you know where this
28:38company is going wow they're gonna build
28:40create products and that takes a lot of
28:43work if people say oh I visit customers
28:45on second fridays it's probably not the
28:49most the CEO level of commitment of the
28:51CTO level of commitment to make this
28:53company successful you can screw it up
28:55by not having a good relationship with
28:58your VP of product man it's all about
29:01the partnership because like you have to
29:04be able to work together and you have to
29:06have a good working relationship if you
29:08can't spend a ton of time with that
29:09person then it's not gonna work and in
29:12order to figure out if you can spend a
29:14bunch of time with a person you got to
29:15spend a bunch of time with a person
29:17during the interview process I'd say the
29:19flip side of that one is not correcting
29:22it fast enough if it's not a fit the
29:23general rule in small groups you have to
29:26deal with problems fast like that's a
29:28simple rule that role in particular
29:31metastasizes all sorts of bad antibodies
29:33form around that so I think like be sure
29:35you're ready and then evaluate hard on
29:38is this really working and if not have
29:40that hard discussion like I don't know
29:42this doesn't seem to be working and
29:44here's some of the reasons but don't go
29:45through a second one and not make the
29:47fix okay that's true for any role it's
29:49true for any role for sure well that
29:52please guys everybody give it up for our
