00:00hello I'm Peter Levine from andreessen
00:02horowitz and I'm here with Dan Shapiro
00:04from LinkedIn Dan welcome and Experion
00:08here yeah maybe maybe just for you know
00:12for folks listening a little bit about
00:15yourself and you know what you what you
00:17have done it LinkedIn and what you do
00:19now would be awesome
00:20happy to and thanks thanks for having me
00:22here sure so I've been on LinkedIn for
00:24about six and a half years and for the
00:26majority of my time there I was
00:28responsible for building out the talent
00:30solutions go to market organization and
00:32so for those you that know LinkedIn as a
00:34membership you now realize that about
00:3660% of howling t'nuk shmoney is through
00:38serving enterprises to help them hire
00:40great people and so we provide energize
00:43enterprise tools for those companies and
00:45I was responsible for the sales team
00:47that brought those products to market to
00:48about 30 per a thousand enterprises
00:51around the world and so by the time you
00:53know when I inherited it it was probably
00:55about a forty million dollar business
00:57and grew it to over a billion dollars in
00:59the span of about four years team of
01:01about twelve hundred people spread
01:03around in 27 offices on most continents
01:04so amazing ride and in the last three
01:07months I've done a complete pivot now
01:08and I'm I'm actually on the product side
01:10of the organization building great
01:12products to help people find jobs so
01:14it's been a big shift and a lot of fun
01:16great great again welcome one of the you
01:20and I have talked about this and it's
01:22just it's always interesting to me
01:24because when I had originally thought of
01:27LinkedIn before I got to know you I
01:30would have never imagined that LinkedIn
01:32of all companies out there would even
01:35have a sales organization and hear you
01:37say you manage an organization of 1,200
01:40people and you know all this revenue why
01:44you know how did all that happen I
01:47thought it was sort of this viral thing
01:49people just you know kind of downloaded
01:50the product and used it and yeah what
01:52was the purpose of building a sales
01:54organization and at that scale and maybe
01:57some you know some of the rationale
01:59there ya know I think I think it's it's
02:01a it's a it's a very fair question and
02:03from my perspective it is true that in
02:07fact the people that use LinkedIn the
02:10recruiters that use LinkedIn taught us
02:12about the value of the product
02:13before we understood it ourselves and
02:15we'd always thought about the way that
02:17we were going to serve the market which
02:20is actually quite different than most
02:21enterprise sales teams is to actually
02:22serve the end-user first a lot of
02:24enterprise software tools are designed
02:26to serve the decision maker and we
02:28thought that if we focus on the end user
02:29then we can create the most value
02:31because that's actually the person doing
02:32the work what we learned in that process
02:34is that although users understood that
02:37the product was interesting and useful
02:39the market had to learn how to value
02:41what we were offering and and in
02:43therefore learned what it's worth paying
02:44for and then similarly most
02:47organizations adopting a disruptive
02:49product like ours had to completely
02:50retool their team their process the way
02:53that they organized themselves in
02:54recruiting and so they needed a partner
02:57to help them understand how actually to
02:58apply the technologies that we'd built
03:00to what they were doing how do you phase
03:03that out over multiple years in many
03:05cases it's a fairly aggressive change to
03:08shift out an old recruiting practice and
03:10move into a new recruiting practice and
03:11that takes help and help that we
03:14couldn't expect the most teams to just
03:15figure out on their own and so to some
03:17extent thinking of it as a sales team is
03:20probably a narrow view of what our team
03:23does what our team really does it to
03:24help understand how to quantify the
03:26value of what they're getting themselves
03:28into with the partnership with LinkedIn
03:30and then understand how to adapt their
03:31practices to actually get the most value
03:33out of those tools and what we've found
03:35is that those two things are incredibly
03:37hard to do through the product alone
03:39we've we've talked quite you and I
03:42outside of this we've talked quite a bit
03:44about the value of a sales organization
03:47and you kind of express it as this
03:49organization that teaches a customer
03:52about the product and understanding the
03:53value how do you measure the return on
03:56that and how do you think through that
03:58because it would seem like ok like
03:59customers understand it what do you find
04:02and once you're talking with these
04:04customers how is that translated into
04:06into value versus let's say not doing
04:08anything yeah well I think there's a
04:11couple ways to think about it like a
04:12simple way is is you could basically say
04:15at what price could I sell my product
04:18without a sales team and my guess is
04:19that for most products you could
04:21actually find a price that you could the
04:23product would you know in theory
04:24actually sell itself at scale truth is
04:27price to be materially lower than the
04:30value we can communicate to the market
04:32through people and through a sales sales
04:34team and so you can actually go and buy
04:37the linkedin's enterprise product suite
04:39online by yourself with a credit card
04:40and the truth is that most people don't
04:42because they want someone to help them
04:45make the right decision about what to
04:46buy and a consultative way they want to
04:48make sure that they're making the right
04:49decision about is it really worth my
04:50money and they want to point a contact
04:52that's going to help them along the way
04:53it's a big decision and if you're
04:55putting your career on the line you want
04:56to make sure there's someone you can
04:57talk to you to make sure you're doing it
04:59in the right way so I think you know you
05:01could say if Salesforce or Oracle or
05:05success factors basically slash prices
05:07by 70 percent could they sell their
05:09products online like maybe but it would
05:13be a lot easier to have a you know an
05:15organization actually helps the market
05:16understand the value that they're
05:19maybe we can you've had a lot of
05:23experience great experience managing
05:25large sales organizations and I'd love
05:29to sort of break things down maybe
05:32operationalize some of the aspects of
05:35what is it like to man it you know what
05:38are what's what what's the day in a life
05:41of a VP running a 1200 person sales
05:45organization how did you spend your time
05:46and then I'd love to get into sort of
05:50hiring best hiring practices that you
05:53had maybe firing like when do you take
05:56someone out or maybe talk a little bit
05:58about forecasting and some of the other
06:00elements that go into what what probably
06:03is a big part of your your your day in
06:06day out job as you know a VP running an
06:09organization like that but maybe like
06:11what is what's what's your life like
06:12what's the gun in the life of Dan
06:14Shapiro as VP of VP of Sales at LinkedIn
06:17yeah you know the funny thing is it's
06:20changed over the differences of the
06:23business and so I think there's like a
06:25lot of common which is you know you
06:27always have to feel connected to clients
06:29you always need to be meeting with
06:30clients and even as you scale and any
06:33given client doesn't become important in
06:35the grand scheme of you know delivering
06:38for the business you still have to know
06:40what it feels like to be in front
06:41the client what are their reactions and
06:42is it changing or is it the same and so
06:44that was a consistent theme another
06:46consistent theme was that you got to be
06:48in front of your people so we had a team
06:49spread across 27 offices around the
06:52world I need to go visit need to go see
06:55what it feels like to be in local
06:56markets and you can learn more in two
06:59days in an office than you can talk in
07:00them over the phone for a year uh-huh
07:02and you know you always want to be in
07:04all the higher major hiring and
07:05promotion decisions so I always found
07:08that that those were the highest
07:09leverage moments because that's how you
07:12those moments are where the organization
07:14learns what the culture really is who do
07:17you hire who do you promote who do you
07:18let go like that's where culture gets
07:20defined from my perspective I think
07:22what's changed is it probably at any
07:25given point half of my time was devoted
07:27to a problem of the day and so early in
07:31talent solutions the problem of the day
07:33was how do we explain to the market what
07:37we're about in a way that's easy for
07:39them to understand and so it was
07:40actually a product marketing problem
07:41really like spending time with customers
07:43understanding how to distill the problem
07:44later became a scaling problem we
07:46actually knew how to communicate to the
07:48market but we didn't have any of the
07:49systems processes technology in place to
07:53go from 50 people to 500 people yeah and
07:56then later in the business it became
07:58about leadership development I basically
07:59needed to get to a place where we had
08:01just massive depth of talent that at
08:05some point I could step away from the
08:06business and the business continue to
08:08Russia as they'd done when I was part of
08:10it yeah and so I think that any great
08:12leader understands the problem of the
08:15moment and if you're lucky you've got
08:16enough depth around you where the
08:18problem is doom of the moment can be
08:20defined by what is going to keep you
08:22from scaling over the next 18 months I
08:25think where a lot of people get struggle
08:26is where the top leader is basically
08:28thinking about the business three to six
08:29months out and I think a lot of sales
08:31leaders do because they grew up in a
08:33quarter-to-quarter individual rep
08:34capacity versus thinking about okay if I
08:37woke up a year from now and realized
08:39that we weren't scaling anymore why
08:41would that have happened okay I mean you
08:42start working on that right now and if
08:44you've got good people you can you can
08:45do that yeah our listeners to a large
08:48degree are entrepreneurs who are running
08:51companies maybe the company doesn't
08:54of a sales organization yet and they are
08:56you know thinking about okay who-who do
08:59I hire how do I hire the sort of the
09:02first person yeah first couple of people
09:04maybe just you know what's your
09:07philosophy on hiring you mentioned that
09:09like you know it's a really important
09:10ingredient hiring and then and then you
09:13know firing which is inevitable over the
09:15course of yeah one's life is an
09:16executive so are there are there
09:18takeaways on you know what do you
09:21recommend from a hiring standpoint what
09:23do you look for maybe some advice to
09:25folks who are thinking about bringing on
09:28you know this new organization called
09:31sales and kind of you know how do you
09:34how do you provide some comfort and some
09:36advice to folks starting out and
09:38thinking through that yeah I think it's
09:40a great question and one thing that I
09:44would say is that anytime that we
09:46launched a new office or a new product
09:49and we basically knew to hire the first
09:51person to go seed the opportunity we've
09:54always over hired we always found
09:56someone that we knew could do much more
09:58than what we knew the initial job
10:00wouldn't require and we almost oh we
10:02never compromised on culture fit I think
10:04we generally never compromised on
10:06culture fit but particularly when the
10:08first person was gonna lay the
10:09groundwork we knew that everyone was
10:10going to essentially come into work as
10:12we scout and look to them and say what
10:13does success look like well you're the
10:15successful person that's been around I'm
10:17gonna emulate you and so I think that
10:19that what I've found is is to not to be
10:24a little bit more more aggressive on
10:25finding a person that can do more than
10:27the role and to make sure that you think
10:29that person actually will define the
10:30culture that you you feel good about
10:32over the long term I think beyond that I
10:34think probably the biggest lesson I
10:35learned about hiring salespeople is the
10:37easiest way to assess a salesperson is
10:39to get them to sell to you and so like
10:41we did this process where we would go
10:43through all these interviews and then at
10:45the end of the interviews like six
10:47interviews in we'd give you a mock sales
10:49call and people that had crushed all six
10:52interviews would fail the scales corner
10:54like how are we doing this at the end of
10:56the process this is to be the first
10:57thing that we do and so so I think for
11:01us simple thing like give a person a
11:04PowerPoint deck or a context in which to
11:08find someone that you know that has
11:10sales experience and have them sit in
11:12with you they'll know the difference
11:13between what a good salesperson sounds
11:15like in a bad sales / a good salesperson
11:17asks two questions bad sales Perry
11:19people talk a lot and and I think that
11:23that mock moment will will tell you
11:25probably about 60% of the problem and
11:28the remaining 40% is mostly about
11:29culture maybe on the the other side so
11:32you know we I certainly have you have
11:35it's inevitable we're in these
11:37situations you go hire people and some
11:39don't work out yeah and so how do you
11:42think about sort of that process as it
11:45relates to sales is it you know one a
11:49lot of people view sales and you know we
11:52all as a numbers game okay you make your
11:54quarter like yeah you you stick around
11:56till the next quarter right never you
11:59know every quarter you're measured by
12:00your results I'm sort of thinking how
12:03you all think about sort of letting
12:06someone go and at what point should
12:08somebody think about that if you miss
12:10one quarter do you give a person another
12:12quarter you miss to like you know
12:15there's always these discussions how
12:16long is enough maybe just some advice to
12:19folks who you know when it doesn't work
12:22out what do you do and what might be
12:24some you know ideas around that yeah I
12:27think I think those are oh is the
12:29hardest absolutist discussions and I
12:32think anyone that acts like has the
12:36bravado to act like oh it's easy for
12:38them to know when the fire summer I
12:40think that those people because the job
12:47gets even harder as you're talking about
12:49more and more capable people
12:50yeah Barger and larger jobs with more
12:52scope and right the difference between
12:54there's no like good and bad at that
12:55point yes degrees of capability to go
12:58achieve the task so I think that sort of
13:02a couple caveats and then I'll get my as
13:03my first caveat is that some of the
13:05people that took the longest to mature
13:08as salespeople had the highest potential
13:10in the long run so we hired some people
13:13into sales roles that were off profile
13:15of a typical sales person that came from
13:17management consulting they came from
13:19client services mm-hmm
13:21they had something about them that we
13:23knew could communicate an
13:24executive-level they didn't really know
13:26selling in a traditional sense and some
13:29of them took a long time to get there
13:31and and conversely there are some people
13:35that ramped really quickly but never got
13:37to a plateau that we were comfortable
13:39with and so I think I think it comes
13:43back to you a is the person performing
13:47against your expectation if not can you
13:50explain why and do you believe that that
13:53gap will be bridged in a period of time
13:55that you're comfortable with I think
13:56there's people where I've said you know
13:58they're not getting there and I don't
14:00or I actually can't communicate why
14:03they're failing and that really troubles
14:05me like something about what they're
14:06doing is not working and I can't even
14:08tell you what it is I I can't believe in
14:10that person cuz I don't know you know
14:12how to help them through that process
14:13where other people it's like you know
14:14what they're failing and they're still
14:15failing but I know if they just get this
14:17one thing right then it'll unlock all of
14:21this potential and I'm willing to make
14:23more you know you have a larger bet I
14:25think one of the things that that I
14:26found very effective is I always set a
14:28time period for myself so I say okay
14:30it is July by October I'm gonna make a
14:33decision and in October even if I still
14:37feel in the middle ground it's a no
14:38mm-hmm so I think you can and then
14:41sometimes I realize I get myself more
14:43time or less time but somehow that
14:45deadline for myself gives me the power
14:48emotionally to make a hard call
14:49sometimes yeah I'm curious and by the
14:52way I'll share that date with the person
14:54yeah like we agree that yeah but it's
14:58not working now and in October we're
15:00gonna come back together and decide with
15:01right there all right you know that's a
15:03hard conversation but it's actually a
15:04really healthy one I'm curious just
15:06based on your your experience and just
15:10industry-wide do you think there's sort
15:13of a hiring batting average that one
15:16might take away like you know of 10
15:19people I hire how many are gonna work
15:22out and how many do like because what I
15:24find often with with my well myself
15:27included in entrepreneurs it's like we
15:30all know that some people aren't gonna
15:32work out yeah but how
15:35am i doing like if all ten don't work
15:37out clearly I'm doing a lousy job and
15:40probably if all ten do work out yeah
15:43that's outside you know those are
15:45outside the normal averages both of
15:47those right and I'm just sort of
15:49wondering is it half that work out and
15:51you know let's see you know 70% like
15:53what do you think the nominal rate like
15:56how should people measure themselves
15:58when they think about building out
15:59salespeople and hiring them what do you
16:02think that that sort of looks like I'm
16:04just sort of curious every nomination I
16:07and the reason I'm struggling to think
16:08of a sort of a benchmark is that some
16:12roles like hunting roles early in a
16:15startups career I have tremendous
16:16variance of success some people crush it
16:19a lot of people don't and you're
16:21probably going to cycle through people
16:23pretty quickly yeah they're the success
16:26rate maybe what less than one in 30 23
16:29yeah okay that's a true batting average
16:32yeah or you know forty percent right
16:34ballpark on the other hand hiring a
16:37person to manage existing relationships
16:40of senior accounts yeah you can find
16:42places where you have predictable
16:45capability and you might not always get
16:47the best person but the difference
16:48between the best person and a good
16:50person might not be that huge god and so
16:52you know your batting average to finding
16:55an amazing person still might be one in
16:56three but actually 60% of the time you
16:58find a pretty good person so yeah so and
17:01that might be sufficient for the
17:02business yeah so I think the variability
17:04of the performance of the job kind of
17:07I find leadership the hardest thing
17:09though I think leadership batting
17:10average is really hard to do with sales
17:12leadership yeah like really not home
17:15grown solid external sales leadership
17:18and at least in a startup most people
17:22like the thought processes that we've
17:24seen is you know okay
17:26we're at 50 people we need to be at 500
17:28people who has managed a 500 been a
17:31manager in a 500 hundred person org
17:33okay great let's go bring them into our
17:35org okay as it turns out they're not
17:38comfortable with ambiguity ambiguity
17:39because alright 500 people sales or just
17:42don't have a lot of ambiguity but yet
17:44that's the problem of the day and so we
17:49it took a lot of practice to get that
17:51kind of signal right yeah interesting
17:54maybe you know switch a little bit to
17:59just your thoughts on forecasting I
18:02always I and and we've discussed this
18:06perhaps in the past a little bit on
18:09forecasting accuracy versus not and like
18:13is it okay to be you know is it okay to
18:16forecast low but then come in high how
18:20do you sort of think about that as you
18:22have a organization at scale how
18:24important is it to forecast correctly
18:26and what are the ramifications of
18:28incorrect forecasting whether low or
18:31high and what do you do about that
18:32yeah that's a great question I've
18:34actually struggled with this this point
18:36because early on I came in to the tea
18:42and I was like why do we spend so much
18:44time talking about this man forecast
18:47forecast yeah yeah of all the things to
18:49be talking about what why this and I
18:51think one of the things that I
18:53discovered was that forecasting is a
18:56pretty good starting point for a
18:59discussion about do you really know
19:01what's going on mm-hmm
19:02and so if you don't if you don't think
19:04about it necessarily as the outcome is
19:06an accurate forecast the outcome is an
19:08is a is clarity to management of do you
19:11really know what you're talking about
19:12and do the things you predict actually
19:15play out yeah and so I found it to be
19:17very helpful to us as people beyond the
19:20actual goal of the forecasters right
19:21that being said we're incredibly good at
19:24forecasting within the sales team at
19:26LinkedIn to sort of mind-blowing
19:28capacity and it is allowed the business
19:32to invest more aggressively on the front
19:34end around the non sales organization
19:38explain take me yeah take me maybe dig
19:41you know click down one step there and
19:43take me through what does that mean yeah
19:45just let this be simple about it let's
19:48say that I forecasted a million dollars
19:49a year and in fact I did ten
19:52well if I knew that 12 months ago we
19:54could have hired four engineers that
19:57could have been building new products
19:58that would have helped to stay ahead of
19:59the competition in not doing that I miss
20:02essentially starving the business of
20:04potential investment resource and so
20:06part of my goal you could think of if
20:08you want to take a super Silicon Valley
20:10view of sales our goal is to fund
20:12engineering and my ability to do that
20:14successfully requires me to be a good
20:16forecaster you know I think that that
20:19I've seen a couple places where I think
20:21forecasting goes a little awry where you
20:22essentially apply forecasting rigidity
20:24to new businesses and the conversation
20:27is a you're just launching your product
20:29and it's you said you're gonna do three
20:31million and you did two and a half and
20:32why were you under and it's it's like we
20:35just launched the business right it's
20:36all guesswork at this point let's let's
20:39not talk about the Delta let's talk
20:40about the why and why it wasn't what we
20:42thought but so I've seen a couple places
20:44where I think it can be
20:45counterproductive yeah and how did you
20:47guys get so good at it so I think scale
20:49helps first a lot of averages that's the
20:53law of averages play on your favor and I
20:55think any SAS business has an advantage
20:58because you're talking about
20:59subscription right but essentially what
21:01we've done is we've bifurcated the
21:03forecasting process into new business
21:05and existing business and for existing
21:08business we know what a customer with
21:11the following usage profile that we can
21:13see the upsell rate and the churn rate
21:16and so on the existing business we have
21:18incredible accuracy and guesswork yeah
21:20on the new business side we've just
21:22hired enough people and had enough
21:24people and we've looked at enough
21:26activity levels to know that the
21:28following things happen we kind of know
21:29what's going to come out the other end
21:31and so what we tend to do is we take a
21:36historical top-down measure of given the
21:40following things around pacing and where
21:43we are in the quarter and where we are
21:44in the year we guess where we're gonna
21:45end and we map that to a what does each
21:48team think that they're going to deliver
21:50and those numbers are typically in a
21:53tight range yeah and that gives us
21:55enough of a triangulation to come pretty
21:57good but but yeah we're we do a good job
22:00on this great that's great one of the
22:03other conversation points always with
22:06entrepreneurs is sales compensation yeah
22:09and let me let me characterize it as
22:13engineers get paid a certain way here's
22:16that yeah here's sort of the typical
22:18dialogue that I might have with a
22:20technical founder technical engineering
22:23group would be engineers get paid a
22:27salary there's no Commission there's no
22:30bonus if somebody does a great job they
22:32don't get paid more money yeah
22:34and yet sales people they have typically
22:37a base and then a commission they a you
22:40know a commission plan on top of that
22:42yet that is based on performance yep
22:45how do you rationalize that and why you
22:48know I've been in a lot of conversations
22:50with my engineering folks yeah on
22:54why does sales have to be on that plan
22:57like why can't everyone just get paid a
22:59flat salary sure and like why doesn't
23:02that work yeah and maybe it can work I
23:05mean it's a very interesting question
23:06yeah and I know a lot of organizations
23:09that try to change it to say okay I'm
23:11just gonna hire salespeople who believe
23:13in our business and we'll give them
23:15stock options and grant them options and
23:17pay them a flat salary just like
23:19engineering group and we're all equal
23:20yeah why does that does that
23:23why and yet talking to sales folks as I
23:26well that doesn't work doesn't work yeah
23:28it's a great question it's a really
23:30funny conversation because I think
23:32there's something at the heart of human
23:33nature about it I think there's a couple
23:36things I think first of all one of the
23:38there's there's sort of a couple sides
23:40to the conversation one side is what is
23:42different about sales the sales role
23:45that makes this work versus an
23:47engineering role I think one of the
23:49things is that it's easily measurable
23:51and it's highly individual typically and
23:53so you actually can know we output of a
23:56person which is really hard if you talk
23:59to any engineering like what's an
24:00engineer worth well this guy wrote more
24:01lines of code well this guy wrote better
24:03code this guy's code quality was higher
24:05there's person ships faster like like
24:07how do you actually assess a person and
24:08I think in sales there's actually you
24:11have the ability to do that in a much
24:12more refined way than you otherwise do
24:15the second thing is to recognize that
24:17sales people get to here know all day
24:20long and so the need for emotional fuel
24:24is a big part of being a salesperson
24:26they need to have a rush the high of
24:29Winn and that when meaning something and
24:31that wouldn't being visible to others
24:33and that when being something you take
24:34home to your family that's part of what
24:38gets salespeople to here know eight
24:40times a day and still want to pick up
24:43and so I think that those are very
24:46different kinds of jobs than
24:48traditionally what you need in engineers
24:50or product managers or marketers that
24:53have a different kind of job with a less
24:56individualized objective and alas sort
25:00of the other thing that I didn't give
25:01your fan of I think is a Bob C eldini
25:04the guy that wrote the influencer book
25:06basically says that for creative
25:09expansive type of tasks giving people
25:12explicit compensation is actually really
25:14counterproductive they tend to narrow
25:15their field of vision they tend to focus
25:17on known solutions for highly repetitive
25:20narrower tasks paying someone per their
25:23direct output actually drives higher
25:25output and I think sales tends to sit
25:27much more in the former engineer in the
25:29latter engineering sense way more in the
25:30former yeah I'm um can I make one more
25:33yeah absolutely I think the biggest
25:35concern people tend their voice around
25:37this is like does this Brewis breed a
25:41sales culture that is the heart of evil
25:43in most tech companies yeah and I think
25:46what we've learned it LinkedIn is that
25:48compensation is not how culture is
25:51formed okay and LinkedIn if you want to
25:55make money in the year you sell a lot of
25:56stuff if you want to get promoted which
25:59is really the path to earning for
26:01yourself and your family to higher and
26:02higher opportunities you have to be a
26:04complete team player and so with that
26:07kind of short term compensation but long
26:10term focus on culture you know the way
26:13that people get ahead and the people
26:14really earn for themselves is actually
26:16to be that complete package and that's
26:17created a culture that is not short term
26:20focus and it is about not just me but my
26:22German and I think that there's always
26:24this fear that I think entrepreneurs
26:26have that sales compensation somehow
26:27it's gonna ruin the culture of the
26:28company I think that that happens at
26:30some places but doesn't need to happen
26:35you're a very you have a very
26:38interesting career in that you're you've
26:40moved from sales now into product
26:43but I'm exactly the opposite I I move
26:46from you know most people move from
26:48product you start as an engineer and
26:49then you go to product manager maybe I
26:51do sales but you know you move up the
26:53exec ranks whatever I'm curious what
26:56have you taken from the sales world and
26:59applied in your product roles and is
27:01there you know should people do more of
27:03what you're doing and what have you
27:04learned in that process because I find
27:06it fascinating that you've actually
27:08taken you know the almost the opposite
27:12step from a normal career and I'm just
27:15like what are the learnings what are the
27:17takeaways what can be what can be
27:19brought from your experience in the
27:22sales role back into the product role
27:25yeah it's a it's a great question and
27:28I'm learning so yeah I'll be curious
27:31well how interesting question here from
27:33now I think I think that there's a lot
27:36of similarities between the role despite
27:39the fact that they're so different like
27:40in one hand what makes a great
27:41salesperson in a Sales Leader I think is
27:43being able to empathize with an audience
27:45and that's also what makes a great
27:47product manager really if I build this
27:49feature how will people absorb it how
27:52will people react to it how will make
27:53them feel when we can feel good or bad
27:55or intense or calm and I think that
27:57sales great salespeople think about the
27:59same thing in terms of the environment
28:00that they create for their clients and
28:01their prospects I think that great
28:03product managers are great internal
28:05leaders they tend to be the ones in many
28:07cases that can rally the troops and
28:09align the troops around their cause
28:10salespeople do the same thing in front
28:12of clients that being said they are very
28:14different and to some extent I feel like
28:16I'm learning a completely new discipline
28:18and my my hope is that however my sort
28:22of my personal career path of olives
28:23that being able to speak in both worlds
28:26will be useful yeah whether I'm in one
28:29or the other or sort of above above both
28:31in my career but I'll tell you one thing
28:34the jokes that people laugh at are very
28:36different from tea new set of jokes
28:40great great well good luck to you and in
28:44your new role thanks again this is
28:48I'm sure we'll catch up we'll catch up
28:50again soon look forward to it happy
28:51holidays yeah thanks
